my crackpot theory on the effect that BAM's sealing had on humans; It prevented humans from fully connecting to Roshar in the way that they naturally would have over time explaining why humans have such a hard time hearing the pure tones and rhythms.
Also, this was an amazing podcast. I really love how each member on the show brings their own energy and unique ways of thinking. Your guys' personalities really mesh well together.
His death really sucked. He had so much potential to be a great character with an amazing redemption arc but instead his character will only be remembered for his flaws.
What if ba-ado-mishram used to be the spren of the moon mishim and she got unmade at some point and the moons name changed overtime from mishram to mishim to be more symmetrical and holy.
I think you're onto something especially given the story about the moons that Hoid told. Perhaps Mishram is one of the beings or spren that made the Aimians, was of Roshar and then was Unmade with Odium's investiture, to kind of follow up with what Evgeni was saying around 42:50.
I'm almost certain this means something. Sanderson set up symmetrical names vs real names very deliberately, so we should be VERY wary of any symmetrical name. Pretty sure you nailed this
In relation to mishram/deadeyes. I'm not super knowledgeable in terms of lore so I could be wrong about alot of this but here goes... Radiant spren gain more physicality as the bond to their radiant gets stronger, so in my mind the reason the Spren ishar brings into the physical realm die very shortly after is because they're being FORCED into it without a bond? With that in mind has anyone ever theorized that maybe because mishram was supposedly connected to everything from roshar, that was why spren didn't become deadeyes when their radiants broke oaths. My theory is that after the binding of ba ado mishram, they lost their connection to her therefore the only bond anchoring them to the physical realm was with their radiants, and as a result when those oaths are broken they are forced back into the cognitive realm causing them to become deadeyes, similarly to how ishar forced spren into the physical realm? Hopefully that makes sense
Fun story. So I was talking to my fiance, Jess, and I read this comment (and Voidsabre's response) and before I could finish her mind knew exactly how I said BAM (she has not listened to the episode) and how Alyx says Mraize, haha. -Eric
We'll do a chill stream (likely a lower production value one) talking Rhythm of War and Dawnshard stuff next Saturday, January 2nd, at 11am Pacific on our Twitch channel: www.twitch.tv/17th_shard I hope you don't mind the one midroll ad. The show is, after all, three hours long.
@@ShaunshankRedemption I certainly hope so, I made my deal with the devil for background playback on mobile and the removal of annoying ads. I hope they would treat it as if I were watching the full ads for a video and pay the creator accordingly.
I really like the idea that Ba Ado Mishram was a world spren before she was unmade and became Ba Ado Mishram - there was a WoB in Brandons recent spoiler chat where he confirmed there were only ever 3 Bonsmith Spren at the same time, but made a point of confirming that they might not have been the same ones; I love the idea that in the past there was 3 (which might've included one or more of three we know (Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Sibling) but also might not have), and there's a whole plot point where one of the other world Spren who were bonded was corrupted and became Ba Ado Mishram or something exciting! Heck, that WoB excites me because it might actually mean there's a chance there's more than 4 world Spren/potential Bondsmiths even if we don't add new ones like Sja Anat, but that's a conversation for another time!
I think the big thing being missed here in terms of why the Knights/spren broke their oaths is what Maya says. She describes it as a “sacrifice” and when Adolin asks why they did it she says “To save...” Adolin assumes it was to save them from something worse but I think it could be to save a specific person (BAM or...?). Regardless the fact that it was a sacrifice to save something primarily supports the immediate reaction as opposed to delayed discussion - if trapping BAM did something and the Radiants realised the only way to save (her/it/them/whoever) was for all to abandon their oaths, then there would be an element of urgency to it.
*Sees episode is 3 hours long* *Whole last year of Shardcast Eric is hyped at Ba-Ado-Mishram being mentioned* I wonder if they have a lot to say about Mishram and the Recreance.
I think that when Radiants who broke their oaths left behind shard plate and shard blades, they would have thought: something’s not right here. The fact that dead eyes wouldn’t show up in shadesmar until after the first gemstone was attached to a shard blade doesn’t change the fact that the shardblade stuck around after the spren should have returned to normal.
I wonder if odium gave the unmade a bunch of good aspects of emotion and only kept anger for himself which is why Taravangian only experiences the anger when he picks up Odium
And Odium is not even the shards true name, it's just what he has reduced himself to. He could not handle to swell of emotion, so he tried to bring the shard under control by sealing potions of it away. This is the foundation of the oath pact. Honor helped bind his unyielding emotions to Spren, which in turn connected the angry monster known as "Odium" to Roshar through his own investment. And Honor, In my head at least, only works through Oaths, so he is bound to the world and unable to free himself because Honor died in the sealing and cannot release him from gis Oath. Ba-Ado-Mishram is simply Odiums largest investiture cache.
Re: The Heralds being at the binding. Did anyone outside the Skybreakers even know that the Heralds were still around? It seems more likely to me that Kalak and maybe others were there incognito, drawn in some way to the important event as they were to the treaty signing in the Prologue. I really doubt that Ishar would openly declare himself at that point in time.
How ridiculously excited Eric is to talk Ba-Ado-Mishram has definitely made me far more excited about it too! Now we just have to wait... 3 years for book 5? lol
might be even more than 3 years, probably more. Brandon has said that he'd be ok with letting book 5 slip back a bit, because he really wants to make sure that he does this book right. On the bright side, Mistborn 7 seems to be coming along very well.
@@vaibhavgupta20 which is good but stormlight books take him 18 months and then a while before publication so maybe a bit less than 3 years now but around that.
IMO-The archive is a library. So in my mind all libraries have some kind of researchable methodology on how they are arranged. So maybe there is a color/area/topic arrangement for everything....their version of the Dewey decimal system :)
Just started listening to y'all. Great stuff. It's been hard finding people to talk to about stuff and it's nice to hear other people in excited conversation. There's alot in Rhythm about invasions and a greater unknown problem. Could they have sacrificed their bond to uphold some sort of protection? Something to keep greater forces from entering Roshar?
What if restoring Ba-ado-mishram will have an Elatrian affect to Roshar like when they included the chasm in to the geography of the city. What if returning Ba-ado-mishram will fix the spiritual geography causing surges to become unbound and dangerous. Which is why she was captured in the first place and why the recreance happened! To stop anybody continuing on with the unbounded surges.
I want some dang answers on Honor's death. This is plausible, though I think it more would have been like "it put a big enough hole in Honor's soul that Odium could exploit this." -Eric
Where do we start.several possibilities 1.Honor was attacked by ambition and odium hence killed 2.Honor sacrificed his life to save roshar making Odium to be bound and not free to use his power no most people 3.The heralds breaking their oaths caused honor to be weakened hence killed 4.Honor was forced to break an oath hence killing him as we see the power of Odium fighting the vessel race ....abt his power i think we will see dalanar ascend to become a shard after he speaks the 5th ideal.
Man, I feel like EVEN after ROW, we got more questions than answers, and most of the questions we had from before were STILL not answered. We still don't know: 1. What Shattered the Plains 2. What were the Shin invasions 3. How Gavilar got his hands on the Anti-voidlight sphere 4. What REALLY happened at the Recreance. I feel like we've been going round in circles. 5. Where are ALL the Shardblades. If there were around 20000 deadeyes, then where are those other Blades 6. More on the Unmade. They were a huge part of Book 3, but not much was seen of them in Book 4 7. Honor losing his mind. What happened. Ugh....at this point, our relationship with Sanderson is like the relationship between Mraize and Veil.
9. I believe the Girl and the Wall was a story, or can be applied to, of mankind leaving Shinovar. But what actually happened? Why did they leave. 10. Why did Honor and the Spren abandon the Singers and choose mankind? Did the Singers do something terrible to the humans that prompted it and humanity’s actions and expansion across Roshar?
2:13:41 "It was probably not breaking oaths, it was probably imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram" that causes deadeyes. Then what about Testament? Is the fact that Ba-Ado-Mishram still imprisoned that causes Testament to become a deadeye?
The gems in the drawers told which Radiant order left the message: sapphires for Windrunners, smokestone for Skybreakers, and so on and so forth, perfectly aligning with the gems of the respective orders as laid out in the Ars Arcanum. All of the six or so messages in Truthwatcher drawer 30-20, I believe it was, had to do with the movement to imprison BAM.
1:21:21 the only way Kelsier pulled a Kelsier is that he managed to trap him self in the Well of Ascension until he absorbed enough to survive indefinitly
2 THOUGHTS - Could your theories about the afterlife on Roshar being damaged be connected to Odium being trapped on the world? Could his inability to leave keep souls from reaching the beyond? Are they trapped on Ashyn like the singers are trapped on Braize? and is Cusicesh important? Maybe Cusicesh is Ba-Aso-Mishram's prison spren? based on the mention of captivity spren in the "axis the collector" interlude in tWoK?
Honestly... this did not feel like 3 hours in the BEST WAY. But props to you, Eric, for keeping the discussion moving AND flowing, regardless of tangents! Cheers all
Anyone else have the thought that the heralds going mad is like the sprin having no mind without their bond? When a bondsmith is sworm they are closer to honor and get lucidity.
Oh, man. Regarding the afterlife being messed up on Roshar, the name of the seas in Shadesmar super seem like a hint. Sea of Souls and Sea of Regret could be a hint. Sea of Lost Lights more so.
What if Adolin is the one freeing/bonding Ba ado mishram? All the deadeyes outside of Lasting Integrity were waiting for something big.. My guess is that Adolin be the one to fix Ba ado mishram
What if the "something" that was missing from the humans when BAM was imprisoned allows Odium to take more direct control of humans ala Moash or (more specifically) Amaram?
1:45:00 The visions were bfore Spanreeds. Unless a fortress was important enouh to warrant a Radiant messenger, they were behind days, even weeks in their news. They had not learnt that B-A-M had been captured, ending the war.
1:56:38 What comes to mind for me is from the Radiants perspective it's not known its a FALSE desolation. They know they are under attack and their heralds haven't returned. They tower is dying... of course they felt out of favor and abandoned. There wasn't supposed to be anymore desolations as far as they knew. I would venture to say that considering all of these events as a whole maybe the recreance was a condition of a deal struck. A cease fire on both sides. 4k years later here we are.
What if, by the end of the ten books, we find out there's more Oaths to make (for the Radiants, or for the spren/human hybrid they would be by that point. Do they get a diff. name by that point??) than we know of? Kind of like in Warbreaker, barely anyone, slight exceptions for Warbreaker himself and the other Scholars, knows the full extent of how many breaths (i.e 10th, 11th? Hightenings) a person can have. Sorry if I made that hard to understand lol. I could theorize for days
@@17thShard Ok, maybe didn't like was a bit harsh. It's still my least favorite Stormlight book, I just really felt like the pacing was off. Like, Way of Kings and Words of Radiance did not feel as long as they were, but Rhythm of War just felt really, really long with the epic moments being a bit rushed. I still love Brandon, he's still tied for my favorite author with Robin Hobb. And I still love the Cosmere, and of course I love Shardcast. You all are super accepting and discuss differences of opinion, and that's honestly where I would rather spend my time. 💖👍
Glad to hear it! :) And hey, your reading is totally valid, even though I didn't feel similarly. But yeah, even a Brandon book that is "less good" is still pretty good overall compared to other authors. -Eric
@@jessi4894 On the first read, Oathbringer felt very long and slow. However, on my re-read this year, it felt much better (if I skipped the many heists of veil in Kholinar).
@@vamsiampolu8438 I actually think the Tor previews made RoW seem longer, because I couldn't skim Part 1 (which was mostly unnecessary) and get to the actual story. Seriously, Part 1 could be removed, minus a bit of exposition, and not affect the rest of the story.
What if all of this has happened before and Ba-Ado-Mishram was a bondsmith before, and then became an un-made when they lost a contest of champions against Odium?
Im starting to think that Mishram may have gotten her hands on a dawnshard way before or just before the false desolation. Would be the 'dawnshards destroying this world too' that honor was talking about. Also explain how she could be so influencial to all roshar not just from evolving to bondsmith level as a spren/unmade but to a new level because odium became connected to tones or that she now uplifted voidish/odium thru connection to roshr as a bondsmith-like dawnshard. As dawnshard she can command men and voidish alike. Shes not human orientated so her preference could have been to singers? Challenged odium passively nad failed. My thoughts are that she and (possibly) the dawnshard got locked into the very stone of roshar itself or more specifically Peaks or Ur or Shinovar, due to her inexperience and naturally incomplete nature. We know it can reside in both the inanimate and living. If Risyn has 'change' could this be 'control'? Feel like ive got some unrefined possibilities in here somewhere.
@@SirGeeSantos i'm thinking that the Davar family had possession of the gemstone where BAM was imprisoned. When Shallan was a child, she found the gemstone in her mother's room, broke it using Testament and somehow BAM got transferred inside Shallan. 😂
Hot Take: What if the Rider of Storms becomes the Stormfather because Honor suffused him with his Investiture so technically he's an Unmade but of Honor
I have this thought that if someone can bond an unmade as a Bondsmith could the nahel bond fill the cracks in the unmade's being like how the regular spren fill the broken parts in a surgebinder's spirit web? And if that is possible could the Unmade become Made again by bonding someone? Probably not but I can dream :D EDIT: Regarding the effect Mishram's sealing has on humans. Ian mentioned that for the others something is missing and the book did make a point of telling us that humans are part of Roshar. I wonder if the humans were at some point able to attune the rhythms of Roshar and what is missing is that they can't hear them anymore.
Watching this after reading chapter 1 & 2 from KoWT. I can't even imagine how the Mishram thing this will turn the story upside down and see what exactly happened on the Recreance.
Probably a dumb question but, Is it possible that Bah-Ado-Mishram was able to gain more access to connection because honor was dying and his regulation of bonds was weakening? Maybe that's why there is so much damage to Roshar because Bah-Ado-Mishram used bonds unregulated by honor?
Blackthorn and Szeth hear screaming of the dead, because of PTSD. There is nothing wrong with the after life; when Dalinar first opens honors perpendicularity he hears Evie say I forgive you.
“They were the first, and they were also the last.” The last of the Stonewards and Windrunners abandoned their oath in ferverstone keep after ending the remnants of the fake desolation, not the singers, the humans of Iri.
Wait, who can hear the pure tone of honor? Sounds like the Sibling can't. In Venli's section where she messes with the stones, it said: "A tone surged through her, then it began to pulse with the song of a rhythm she’d never heard, but somehow always known." If she never heard it before, maybe she can't/couldn't?
I like the idea that the visions are basically the Rosharan equivalent of movie adaptations of historical events. It's spiritually accurate, if not factually.
Lore-wise, the Jasnah statement about the abandonment of the Tower before the Recreance makes sense. The Tower stopped functioning properly, so some may have left, and those that stayed were using the gem archive. There's history of people leaving the Tower, and then no written history from the Tower afterwards. From Jasnah's (and probably the majority of scholars) perspective, it looks like the initial abandonment was actually a full abandonment, when they had no more written primary sources, and spanreeds didn't exist yet to let others know it was still inhabited. From outside, it looks like the Tower was abandoned, and then the Recreance happened after that abandonment. It might've been weeks or months later, but her statement makes sense in lore.
Only about 30 minutes in so I don't know if this comes up at any point but what if, unbeknownst to anyone, someone (Ishar perhaps?) formed a bond with Ba-Ado-Mishram?
1:32:30 I dont think the tower instantly stopped working, but I belive the vital functions stopped working within hours (as opposed to days) as the light leaked out
This vision of Feverstone Keep is accurate, per WoB. Also, narratively it would really undermine things for the visions to be ahistorical since Brandon shows Jasnah and Navani doing research in them and Jasnah even draws conclusions about the timing of the Recreance from it. R'Shara Is the vision that Dalinar of the Recreance; is that how it actually happened? Brandon Sanderson You can assume that even though it was a recreation, that it is accurate. Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)
My question is, are there spren alive that had bonded knight, had their knight break their oaths all before Mishrams imprisonment. Would they be dead eyes now? Or just alive spren?
I'm convinced that the unmade are the original gods of Roshar, that they are related to Cusicesh, the water spren Axies sees in the first book (which would be the 10th of them), and that Ba-ado-Mishram was their leader. My theory is that Adonalsium's death changed them and Odium used that on his favour.
i definitely got the impression while reading Dalinar's visions that they were frozen images of real events as they happened and the only thing that changed were things that Dalinar effected directly (and only to a point, the minor things which is why the "npcs" in the vision revert back to the planned storyline) My biggest evidence for this is that stormfather helped Dalinar "zoom in" on Odium's champion in the Honor vision. Something not directly involved in the events portrayed to the dreamer but it was still distantly visible at the farthest edge of the vision in the background as if just accidentally captured in the memory. There's no reason to hide a champion in the background of a fabricated vision by Honor that wasnt a photo recreation of the events.
Rabonial was corrupting the sibling and they said he was being unmade. So I think that bo-ado-mishram was the night watcher bondsmith, who was then corrupted by Odium
Wait, wait, wait, Ba-Ado-Mishram give forms of power to the singers, she acts like the stormfather in doing so, she predates the heralds and likely the human arrival on roshar. They call her a spren but the heralds are also referred to as spren. What if she herself is a bondsmith of a sort. Mishram being the person that is holding the Ba-Ado. The heralds fade because being trapped in a gem cuts off the connection to the others which sustains them. Maybe Ba-Ado-Mishram hasn't faded for the simple reason that what sustains her is in there with her.
Here’s my theory about the Recreance. In the Ars Arcanum, when talking about stone shapers, Kriss says that they caused explosions when splitting axi, (atoms) on Yolen. Those would be nuclear explosions. In ROW, someone I can’t remember or find, had a vision of the first humans coming to Roshar. They appeared burned as if by radiation. I think the surgebinders on Yolen after causing a few nuclear explosions went to Ashyn. They continued their experiments and eventually destroyed Ashyn in a nuclear holocaust. The Ars Arcanum says Honor put limits on Surgebinding to prevent it from happening on Roshar. Eventually as Honor was dying, his limits started fading. At the battle of Narak, someone set off a nuclear explosion. This is what created the Shattered Plains. The Knights Radiant and their spren were so horrified that they decided to give up their power to keep it from happening again. Perhaps there were only three hundred Knights at Feverstone Keep because the rest were killed in the explosion.
Interesting... Sanderson does have a sciencey approach to his magic systems, and Mistborn Era 3 is supposed to take place in space so he’s probably going to involve “technology” in at least that series.
I know exactly the quote you're referring to in RoW. It's Raboniel, and it's one of my very favorite passages in the book, because it is SO awesome, so I thought I'd reshare: "“I wasn’t there when your kind came to our world. My grandmother, however, always mentioned the smoke. At first she thought you had strange skin patterns-but that was because so many human faces had been burned or marked by soot from the destruction of the world they left behind. “She talked about the way your livestock moaned and cried from their burns. The result of humans Surgebinding without oaths, without checks. Of course, that was before any of us understood the Surges. Before the spren left us for you, before the war started.” The soot mention makes me think, you know, actual burning. I'm trying to remember my time in the Hiroshima museum regarding pictures of the bombing there if soot was a big thing. That was a few years ago now. I can't quite remember and in my (admittedly, very short) Google search I don't see pictures like that. But I think given the force of nukes there's that wave of pressure that could, perhaps, be interpreted as soot. So I like where your mind is going here. -Eric
@@17thShard Many people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki had thermal burns. There are famous (and hideous) cases where silhouettes of people were left behind on walls because the flash of the bomb charred the outer layer of the wall, except where someone's shadow protected it.
@@carl11547 Do thermal burns leave soot? I’m thinking if they were burned enough to actually chat their skin, they wouldn’t have survived (although I’m not sure how stormlight would play into that... it can heal you from the burns, but then wouldn’t the char go away, too?)
I have a crackpot theory: Cultivation orchestrated a Bond between BAM and the Nightwatcher, making BAM a Spren/Bondsmith, which gave her the ability to Connect on such a large scale, in order to deal a final blow to Honor with the Recreance. Idk why Cultivation would want Honor dead though.
@@ashamanrich6286 I would fully expect that. Maybe even a way to form an alliance with Odium in order to survive while he goes around the Cosmere killing other Shards.
I think shes just as ruthless as she is creative. Honor is near preservation level of stagnation in a way. My pet theory is that she knows odiums overall mission and agrees with it, but is against Rayse or even odium itself leading the interstellar charge. The vessel could have loved tanavast but the ahard might not have been.
Could Honors ranting about the humans destroying Roshar JUST be him confusing what happened with their previous planet? Like him reliving what happened on Ashyn?
What if ... BAM's imprisonment happened on the battlefield during the Battle at Feverstone Keep and, while they were fighting, the Windrunners and Stonewards (the two primary soldier orders) witnessed the mass genocide-by-labotomy of nearly the entire Singer population. So sickened by what the Knights Radiant had done, they abandoned the Order right then and there.
I tend to think that the Unmade were of other world shards that were some kind of cognitive shadow/sprenlike entities like the Stormfather(of one shard), the NightWatcher (of one shard), or Sibling (of 2 shards). The shards these entities (now Unmade) were related to were the shards holders that Rayse-Odium killed. Or even they came from the pieces of the shards he broke/shattered. In a sense the were Made when he smashed the shard. (Smashed, shattered, broke...I dont know if those are the correct verb is, but the word was not annihilated the power and nature of those shards still exist). Even though Rayse-Odium didn't take up the shard some bits of that power-shard came with him by default. Especially if these entities were made by his action of breaking the shards or in killing the shard-holder. They were made by Rayse-Odium so they became of Odium but not the Odium-shard. Rayse-Odium didn't want those shards to change* his nature or the nature of his shard, so he had to then Unmake these entities. But he couldn't annihilate them. They persisted. They are different than the Odium-shard because they were originally derived from the nature and power of other broken shards (or combos of those shards). As Unmade they can't dilute the natire of odium--or so Rayse hoped. This could be why Ba-Ado-Mishram was trapped in the gemstone--they thought she was of Odium-shard not realizing she was of some other shard. Capturing her that messed up other fundamentals aspects of the world because she had a nature/or power that was of not-Odium shard, but was of a different shard that was touched by Odium. Just like the on Scaderial (Mistborn era 1) when someone with god-like power don't know what they are doing or the consequences of changing one thing. Which is probably the issues that caused trouble on Ashen. This was the problem the Radients realized they could mess up Roshar without god-like knowledge from Honnor but having god-like power like the Lord Ruler.
I'm now getting the sense that BAM chose to be imprisoned. Of course there are some nice parallels there with the Recreance; and if she is in fact broadly sympathetic to Honour's side, then debilitating the singers seems like an understandable gambit. e: actually no forget that that's stupid
The discussion about what have the humans lost due to BAM’s imprisonment took me to something you have already touched upon a bit earlier in the cast. Is it possible that the human radiants have lost the ability to leave Roshar while maintaining a Nahel bond? Isn’t that why Mraize is looking for BAM too? Only the Singers and the bonded spren did react so strong to the imprisonment while the Listeners did not. That’s why I am speculating that maybe just the human Radiants had to be affected only by losing something like the ability to worldhop while still connected to their surges. Great Shardcast.
My tin foil theory is.... Honor makes splinters of himself that help run Roshar. Odium comes ,unmakes those splinters of Honor ; unmaking is a melding of Odiums power with Honors. This Unmaking starts to integrate Odium with Roshar. Honor is corrupted by his own splinters, and Odium is trapped/bound to Roshar. At sometime Honor again splinters Himself in the creation of the Honor Blades , that cannot be corrupted, to fight the Unmade. Millennium later, Honor is loosing himself from being over invested and corrupted. As Honors dying becomes more evident to those living in Roshar, Bo makes a move. The last desolation- Bo is captured in a gem which is the final blow, that breaks Honors power. This takes Honors tone from the Sibling, causing the tower to fade. The Knights Radiant without Honor to protect them know they will could be corrupted/Unmade themselves and decide to break their oaths to save themselves & Roshar.
Theory about issues with afterlife on Roshar: That actually makes some sense. Because so far that's the only place that talks of an after life. Maybe they had access to people in the afterlife and that some how broke at some point.
much ado about mishram
my crackpot theory on the effect that BAM's sealing had on humans; It prevented humans from fully connecting to Roshar in the way that they naturally would have over time explaining why humans have such a hard time hearing the pure tones and rhythms.
Hmmm I always assumed that this was just a biological difference between a native race in the planet and the invasive race... I'm not sure!!
Also, this was an amazing podcast. I really love how each member on the show brings their own energy and unique ways of thinking. Your guys' personalities really mesh well together.
Glad you liked it! Thank you for the kind words, it means a lot. -Eric
"Elhokar, Moron King of Alethkar" is my new favorite throwaway Shardcast quote.
He redeemed himself in the end :(
His death really sucked. He had so much potential to be a great character with an amazing redemption arc but instead his character will only be remembered for his flaws.
The way he died protecting his son 😢
3 hours of Shardcast? I'm so here for this
I know! I have to come back to this one later today when I can sit on my butt for a few hours.
I did not realize I was signing up for a 3 hour shardcast when I clicked, but I don't regret it lol
I know right!
What if ba-ado-mishram used to be the spren of the moon mishim and she got unmade at some point and the moons name changed overtime from mishram to mishim to be more symmetrical and holy.
Mishim is, after all, the cleverest and craftiest moon
I think you're onto something especially given the story about the moons that Hoid told. Perhaps Mishram is one of the beings or spren that made the Aimians, was of Roshar and then was Unmade with Odium's investiture, to kind of follow up with what Evgeni was saying around 42:50.
What happened to the Queen who changed places?
Or "during" the change?
I'm almost certain this means something. Sanderson set up symmetrical names vs real names very deliberately, so we should be VERY wary of any symmetrical name. Pretty sure you nailed this
In relation to mishram/deadeyes. I'm not super knowledgeable in terms of lore so I could be wrong about alot of this but here goes... Radiant spren gain more physicality as the bond to their radiant gets stronger, so in my mind the reason the Spren ishar brings into the physical realm die very shortly after is because they're being FORCED into it without a bond? With that in mind has anyone ever theorized that maybe because mishram was supposedly connected to everything from roshar, that was why spren didn't become deadeyes when their radiants broke oaths. My theory is that after the binding of ba ado mishram, they lost their connection to her therefore the only bond anchoring them to the physical realm was with their radiants, and as a result when those oaths are broken they are forced back into the cognitive realm causing them to become deadeyes, similarly to how ishar forced spren into the physical realm? Hopefully that makes sense
I'm sure I'm not the only viewer who now only hears "B A - A D O - M I S H R A M" in Eric's voice whenever I read it.
Yep. Kinda like how I can only hear *Mraize* in Alyx's WTCC intro voice
@@voidsabre_ TRUE
Fun story. So I was talking to my fiance, Jess, and I read this comment (and Voidsabre's response) and before I could finish her mind knew exactly how I said BAM (she has not listened to the episode) and how Alyx says Mraize, haha. -Eric
Fav shardcast quote: "we've got to make a episode about the stones" this is very Inretesting
We'll do a chill stream (likely a lower production value one) talking Rhythm of War and Dawnshard stuff next Saturday, January 2nd, at 11am Pacific on our Twitch channel: www.twitch.tv/17th_shard
I hope you don't mind the one midroll ad. The show is, after all, three hours long.
Just speaking for myself but I'd be okay with an ad like every half hour or so. It really doesn't bother me, it's the reality of the platform.
@@ShaunshankRedemption i think a half hour might be a little too much of a jump, I'd say maybe at the hour mark
@@ShaunshankRedemption I finally gave in and got premium because all the ads were killing me.
@@vamsiampolu8438 does that contribute to the channel tho? Not judging just I don't know.
@@ShaunshankRedemption I certainly hope so, I made my deal with the devil for background playback on mobile and the removal of annoying ads. I hope they would treat it as if I were watching the full ads for a video and pay the creator accordingly.
I really like the idea that Ba Ado Mishram was a world spren before she was unmade and became Ba Ado Mishram - there was a WoB in Brandons recent spoiler chat where he confirmed there were only ever 3 Bonsmith Spren at the same time, but made a point of confirming that they might not have been the same ones; I love the idea that in the past there was 3 (which might've included one or more of three we know (Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Sibling) but also might not have), and there's a whole plot point where one of the other world Spren who were bonded was corrupted and became Ba Ado Mishram or something exciting!
Heck, that WoB excites me because it might actually mean there's a chance there's more than 4 world Spren/potential Bondsmiths even if we don't add new ones like Sja Anat, but that's a conversation for another time!
The Recreance: Honor's Rant Review on Humans and the Surges.
@Najawin 4/5.? More like 4/10.
@Najawin £
Good job, Ian on the deadeyes not being stuck in the physical realm! I was yelling at the TV until you spoke up!
Ian saves the day yet again! Awesome episode everyone.
I think the “person” who will fully explain the recreance is Maya when BAM is released.
I think the big thing being missed here in terms of why the Knights/spren broke their oaths is what Maya says. She describes it as a “sacrifice” and when Adolin asks why they did it she says “To save...”
Adolin assumes it was to save them from something worse but I think it could be to save a specific person (BAM or...?).
Regardless the fact that it was a sacrifice to save something primarily supports the immediate reaction as opposed to delayed discussion - if trapping BAM did something and the Radiants realised the only way to save (her/it/them/whoever) was for all to abandon their oaths, then there would be an element of urgency to it.
*Sees episode is 3 hours long*
*Whole last year of Shardcast Eric is hyped at Ba-Ado-Mishram being mentioned*
I wonder if they have a lot to say about Mishram and the Recreance.
I'M SURE NOTHING EXCITING HAPPENED HERE -Eric
I think that when Radiants who broke their oaths left behind shard plate and shard blades, they would have thought: something’s not right here. The fact that dead eyes wouldn’t show up in shadesmar until after the first gemstone was attached to a shard blade doesn’t change the fact that the shardblade stuck around after the spren should have returned to normal.
I wonder if odium gave the unmade a bunch of good aspects of emotion and only kept anger for himself which is why Taravangian only experiences the anger when he picks up Odium
And Odium is not even the shards true name, it's just what he has reduced himself to. He could not handle to swell of emotion, so he tried to bring the shard under control by sealing potions of it away. This is the foundation of the oath pact. Honor helped bind his unyielding emotions to Spren, which in turn connected the angry monster known as "Odium" to Roshar through his own investment. And Honor, In my head at least, only works through Oaths, so he is bound to the world and unable to free himself because Honor died in the sealing and cannot release him from gis Oath. Ba-Ado-Mishram is simply Odiums largest investiture cache.
Re: The Heralds being at the binding.
Did anyone outside the Skybreakers even know that the Heralds were still around? It seems more likely to me that Kalak and maybe others were there incognito, drawn in some way to the important event as they were to the treaty signing in the Prologue. I really doubt that Ishar would openly declare himself at that point in time.
You guys are the biggest stormlight nerds and I absolutely love it. ❤
Ian was the MVP of this episode.
How ridiculously excited Eric is to talk Ba-Ado-Mishram has definitely made me far more excited about it too! Now we just have to wait... 3 years for book 5? lol
might be even more than 3 years, probably more. Brandon has said that he'd be ok with letting book 5 slip back a bit, because he really wants to make sure that he does this book right. On the bright side, Mistborn 7 seems to be coming along very well.
Brandon wants start writing book 5 from Jan 1.
@@vaibhavgupta20 which is good but stormlight books take him 18 months and then a while before publication so maybe a bit less than 3 years now but around that.
IMO-The archive is a library. So in my mind all libraries have some kind of researchable methodology on how they are arranged. So maybe there is a color/area/topic arrangement for everything....their version of the Dewey decimal system :)
Just started listening to y'all. Great stuff. It's been hard finding people to talk to about stuff and it's nice to hear other people in excited conversation.
There's alot in Rhythm about invasions and a greater unknown problem. Could they have sacrificed their bond to uphold some sort of protection? Something to keep greater forces from entering Roshar?
What if restoring Ba-ado-mishram will have an Elatrian affect to Roshar like when they included the chasm in to the geography of the city. What if returning Ba-ado-mishram will fix the spiritual geography causing surges to become unbound and dangerous. Which is why she was captured in the first place and why the recreance happened! To stop anybody continuing on with the unbounded surges.
Maybe Feverstone Keep was where the Radiants made their base after abandoning Urithuru.
Argent has just made me realize that Melishi totally does have Ishi in his name, and I'm now questioning what is even real anymore
Every Bondsmith in the past is just Ishar with a wig
@@MrJerajera 🤔😲🤦🏿♂️🤓😁
My belief: Those who know say that imprisoning BEM harmed all of Roshar - Perhaps this act is somehow what actually killed Honor?
I want some dang answers on Honor's death. This is plausible, though I think it more would have been like "it put a big enough hole in Honor's soul that Odium could exploit this." -Eric
We really need to know how and why Honour died and what actually happened to his shard? We know his cognitive shadow fused with the storm farther
Where do we start.several possibilities
1.Honor was attacked by ambition and odium hence killed
2.Honor sacrificed his life to save roshar making Odium to be bound and not free to use his power no most people
3.The heralds breaking their oaths caused honor to be weakened hence killed
4.Honor was forced to break an oath hence killing him as we see the power of Odium fighting the vessel race
....abt his power i think we will see dalanar ascend to become a shard after he speaks the 5th ideal.
Man, I feel like EVEN after ROW, we got more questions than answers, and most of the questions we had from before were STILL not answered. We still don't know:
1. What Shattered the Plains
2. What were the Shin invasions
3. How Gavilar got his hands on the Anti-voidlight sphere
4. What REALLY happened at the Recreance. I feel like we've been going round in circles.
5. Where are ALL the Shardblades. If there were around 20000 deadeyes, then where are those other Blades
6. More on the Unmade. They were a huge part of Book 3, but not much was seen of them in Book 4
7. Honor losing his mind. What happened.
Ugh....at this point, our relationship with Sanderson is like the relationship between Mraize and Veil.
Might I ask where the 20,000 deadeyes numbers came from? I don't recall that.
9. I believe the Girl and the Wall was a story, or can be applied to, of mankind leaving Shinovar. But what actually happened? Why did they leave.
10. Why did Honor and the Spren abandon the Singers and choose mankind? Did the Singers do something terrible to the humans that prompted it and humanity’s actions and expansion across Roshar?
Identity Shield like a Realmatic VPN. A fake ad for that would be cool
2:38:44 I think specific radients can "soulcast" willing lesser spren into artifact fabrial such as soul casters or the healing fabrials
the Spren may have though the "Deadeye" condition would last years, not centuries
There’s nothing preventing me from going down the Shardcast rabbit hole now, and I’m sure it will be amazing.
But what if the recreance had to happen to seal Ba Ado Mishram?
2:13:41 "It was probably not breaking oaths, it was probably imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram" that causes deadeyes. Then what about Testament? Is the fact that Ba-Ado-Mishram still imprisoned that causes Testament to become a deadeye?
The gems in the drawers told which Radiant order left the message: sapphires for Windrunners, smokestone for Skybreakers, and so on and so forth, perfectly aligning with the gems of the respective orders as laid out in the Ars Arcanum. All of the six or so messages in Truthwatcher drawer 30-20, I believe it was, had to do with the movement to imprison BAM.
1:21:21 the only way Kelsier pulled a Kelsier is that he managed to trap him self in the Well of Ascension until he absorbed enough to survive indefinitly
2 THOUGHTS - Could your theories about the afterlife on Roshar being damaged be connected to Odium being trapped on the world? Could his inability to leave keep souls from reaching the beyond? Are they trapped on Ashyn like the singers are trapped on Braize?
and
is Cusicesh important? Maybe Cusicesh is Ba-Aso-Mishram's prison spren? based on the mention of captivity spren in the "axis the collector" interlude in tWoK?
Just discovered you guys, wow... y’all know your stuff when it comes to the Cosmere!!
I wonder how much info about the recreance and ba-ado's sealing that was destroyed during the hirocrasy (ardents rule)
Honestly... this did not feel like 3 hours in the BEST WAY. But props to you, Eric, for keeping the discussion moving AND flowing, regardless of tangents! Cheers all
Anyone else have the thought that the heralds going mad is like the sprin having no mind without their bond? When a bondsmith is sworm they are closer to honor and get lucidity.
Oh, man. Regarding the afterlife being messed up on Roshar, the name of the seas in Shadesmar super seem like a hint.
Sea of Souls and Sea of Regret could be a hint. Sea of Lost Lights more so.
What if mishrams imprisonment affected the heralds sanity
What if Adolin is the one freeing/bonding Ba ado mishram?
All the deadeyes outside of Lasting Integrity were waiting for something big..
My guess is that Adolin be the one to fix Ba ado mishram
What if the "something" that was missing from the humans when BAM was imprisoned allows Odium to take more direct control of humans ala Moash or (more specifically) Amaram?
1:45:00 The visions were bfore Spanreeds. Unless a fortress was important enouh to warrant a Radiant messenger, they were behind days, even weeks in their news. They had not learnt that B-A-M had been captured, ending the war.
1:56:38 What comes to mind for me is from the Radiants perspective it's not known its a FALSE desolation. They know they are under attack and their heralds haven't returned. They tower is dying... of course they felt out of favor and abandoned. There wasn't supposed to be anymore desolations as far as they knew. I would venture to say that considering all of these events as a whole maybe the recreance was a condition of a deal struck. A cease fire on both sides. 4k years later here we are.
BAM is a bonds spren, like a Stormfather before he gained conscience. Something like that. Thank you for coming to my tedtalk
I think the everstorm is the dead-eye form of ba ado mishram. The connection to the reviving of the parsh is so strong.
What if, by the end of the ten books, we find out there's more Oaths to make (for the Radiants, or for the spren/human hybrid they would be by that point. Do they get a diff. name by that point??) than we know of? Kind of like in Warbreaker, barely anyone, slight exceptions for Warbreaker himself and the other Scholars, knows the full extent of how many breaths (i.e 10th, 11th? Hightenings) a person can have.
Sorry if I made that hard to understand lol. I could theorize for days
I'm finally done with work, I can now relax and listen to three hours of Shardcast, while I do more work, but from home.
Jessi, I'm glad that even though you did not like Rhythm of War that you're still here and commenting. I hope you are enjoying the episodes at least
@@17thShard Ok, maybe didn't like was a bit harsh. It's still my least favorite Stormlight book, I just really felt like the pacing was off. Like, Way of Kings and Words of Radiance did not feel as long as they were, but Rhythm of War just felt really, really long with the epic moments being a bit rushed.
I still love Brandon, he's still tied for my favorite author with Robin Hobb. And I still love the Cosmere, and of course I love Shardcast. You all are super accepting and discuss differences of opinion, and that's honestly where I would rather spend my time. 💖👍
Glad to hear it! :) And hey, your reading is totally valid, even though I didn't feel similarly. But yeah, even a Brandon book that is "less good" is still pretty good overall compared to other authors. -Eric
@@jessi4894 On the first read, Oathbringer felt very long and slow. However, on my re-read this year, it felt much better (if I skipped the many heists of veil in Kholinar).
@@vamsiampolu8438 I actually think the Tor previews made RoW seem longer, because I couldn't skim Part 1 (which was mostly unnecessary) and get to the actual story. Seriously, Part 1 could be removed, minus a bit of exposition, and not affect the rest of the story.
What if all of this has happened before and Ba-Ado-Mishram was a bondsmith before, and then became an un-made when they lost a contest of champions against Odium?
Im starting to think that Mishram may have gotten her hands on a dawnshard way before or just before the false desolation. Would be the 'dawnshards destroying this world too' that honor was talking about.
Also explain how she could be so influencial to all roshar not just from evolving to bondsmith level as a spren/unmade but to a new level because odium became connected to tones or that she now uplifted voidish/odium thru connection to roshr as a bondsmith-like dawnshard.
As dawnshard she can command men and voidish alike. Shes not human orientated so her preference could have been to singers? Challenged odium passively nad failed. My thoughts are that she and (possibly) the dawnshard got locked into the very stone of roshar itself or more specifically Peaks or Ur or Shinovar, due to her inexperience and naturally incomplete nature.
We know it can reside in both the inanimate and living.
If Risyn has 'change' could this be 'control'? Feel like ive got some unrefined possibilities in here somewhere.
I wonder if what you were saying about the spiritweb sticking around could be connected to ghost tien
You almost get the sense from Raboniel that the fused are on the brink of their own recreance, however that would look.
You ay there's something wrong with the afterlife in Roshar?? What if Warbreaker is trapping souls or something. Maybe Kelsier?
Crack pot theory: Ba-ado-mishram is currently imprisonned in Shallan.
I know it sounds crazy, like close to 0% chance happening but... i had to say it
but how? does this theory require shallan to be alive on the day of the imprisonment, or are we talking about time travel? let's expand this crackpot
@@SirGeeSantos i'm thinking that the Davar family had possession of the gemstone where BAM was imprisoned. When Shallan was a child, she found the gemstone in her mother's room, broke it using Testament and somehow BAM got transferred inside Shallan. 😂
Well, you weren't really even trying, but you talked me into listening to rhythm again
Hot Take: What if the Rider of Storms becomes the Stormfather because Honor suffused him with his Investiture so technically he's an Unmade but of Honor
That’s not a hot take that’s almost literally what we know happened.
How do they know the spren are becoming deadeyes? wern't the spren in the physical realm as shardblades?
I love when Shannon’s on the show she always brings great points.
I have this thought that if someone can bond an unmade as a Bondsmith could the nahel bond fill the cracks in the unmade's being like how the regular spren fill the broken parts in a surgebinder's spirit web? And if that is possible could the Unmade become Made again by bonding someone? Probably not but I can dream :D
EDIT: Regarding the effect Mishram's sealing has on humans. Ian mentioned that for the others something is missing and the book did make a point of telling us that humans are part of Roshar.
I wonder if the humans were at some point able to attune the rhythms of Roshar and what is missing is that they can't hear them anymore.
Watching this after reading chapter 1 & 2 from KoWT. I can't even imagine how the Mishram thing this will turn the story upside down and see what exactly happened on the Recreance.
Probably a dumb question but, Is it possible that Bah-Ado-Mishram was able to gain more access to connection because honor was dying and his regulation of bonds was weakening? Maybe that's why there is so much damage to Roshar because Bah-Ado-Mishram used bonds unregulated by honor?
yeah I think this is heavily implied. Honor's death allowed surgebinders to have too much power.
This is a really nice idea. I am incorporating this into my Ba-Ado-Mishram headcanon. -Eric
Bluth had a spear in Shallan's drawing.
Blackthorn and Szeth hear screaming of the dead, because of PTSD. There is nothing wrong with the after life; when Dalinar first opens honors perpendicularity he hears Evie say I forgive you.
“They were the first, and they were also the last.” The last of the Stonewards and Windrunners abandoned their oath in ferverstone keep after ending the remnants of the fake desolation, not the singers, the humans of Iri.
Wait, who can hear the pure tone of honor? Sounds like the Sibling can't. In Venli's section where she messes with the stones, it said: "A tone surged through her, then it began to pulse with the song of a rhythm she’d never heard, but somehow always known." If she never heard it before, maybe she can't/couldn't?
I like the idea that the visions are basically the Rosharan equivalent of movie adaptations of historical events. It's spiritually accurate, if not factually.
Lore-wise, the Jasnah statement about the abandonment of the Tower before the Recreance makes sense. The Tower stopped functioning properly, so some may have left, and those that stayed were using the gem archive. There's history of people leaving the Tower, and then no written history from the Tower afterwards.
From Jasnah's (and probably the majority of scholars) perspective, it looks like the initial abandonment was actually a full abandonment, when they had no more written primary sources, and spanreeds didn't exist yet to let others know it was still inhabited.
From outside, it looks like the Tower was abandoned, and then the Recreance happened after that abandonment. It might've been weeks or months later, but her statement makes sense in lore.
one of your best casts here duders - great stuff!
Perhaps humans fought in the tranquiline halls before she was removed
Only about 30 minutes in so I don't know if this comes up at any point but what if, unbeknownst to anyone, someone (Ishar perhaps?) formed a bond with Ba-Ado-Mishram?
I was thinking Kalak, because of how he refers to her as Mishram and seems concerned about her wellbeing in his writings
@@emgee0312 I guess we'll just have to R.A.F.O.
But will answers be SA5 or back half
2:44:00 or maaaaaybe a bondsmith (or 2) can manufacture enough connection
My favourite topic to theorise about!
1:32:30 I dont think the tower instantly stopped working, but I belive the vital functions stopped working within hours (as opposed to days) as the light leaked out
This vision of Feverstone Keep is accurate, per WoB. Also, narratively it would really undermine things for the visions to be ahistorical since Brandon shows Jasnah and Navani doing research in them and Jasnah even draws conclusions about the timing of the Recreance from it.
R'Shara
Is the vision that Dalinar of the Recreance; is that how it actually happened?
Brandon Sanderson
You can assume that even though it was a recreation, that it is accurate.
Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)
My question is, are there spren alive that had bonded knight, had their knight break their oaths all before Mishrams imprisonment. Would they be dead eyes now? Or just alive spren?
Ba Ado Mishram is just the final evolution of Mishram.
I´d like for Navani to now constantly be humming Honor´s tone while doing other shit so that the Sibling can keep creating Towerlight
I'm convinced that the unmade are the original gods of Roshar, that they are related to Cusicesh, the water spren Axies sees in the first book (which would be the 10th of them), and that Ba-ado-Mishram was their leader.
My theory is that Adonalsium's death changed them and Odium used that on his favour.
i definitely got the impression while reading Dalinar's visions that they were frozen images of real events as they happened and the only thing that changed were things that Dalinar effected directly (and only to a point, the minor things which is why the "npcs" in the vision revert back to the planned storyline)
My biggest evidence for this is that stormfather helped Dalinar "zoom in" on Odium's champion in the Honor vision. Something not directly involved in the events portrayed to the dreamer but it was still distantly visible at the farthest edge of the vision in the background as if just accidentally captured in the memory. There's no reason to hide a champion in the background of a fabricated vision by Honor that wasnt a photo recreation of the events.
2:39:26: "And the Sibling's like fine" Is the Sibling a Tsundere?
Rabonial was corrupting the sibling and they said he was being unmade. So I think that bo-ado-mishram was the night watcher bondsmith, who was then corrupted by Odium
Wait, wait, wait, Ba-Ado-Mishram give forms of power to the singers, she acts like the stormfather in doing so, she predates the heralds and likely the human arrival on roshar. They call her a spren but the heralds are also referred to as spren. What if she herself is a bondsmith of a sort. Mishram being the person that is holding the Ba-Ado.
The heralds fade because being trapped in a gem cuts off the connection to the others which sustains them. Maybe Ba-Ado-Mishram hasn't faded for the simple reason that what sustains her is in there with her.
Here’s my theory about the Recreance. In the Ars Arcanum, when talking about stone shapers, Kriss says that they caused explosions when splitting axi, (atoms) on Yolen. Those would be nuclear explosions. In ROW, someone I can’t remember or find, had a vision of the first humans coming to Roshar. They appeared burned as if by radiation. I think the surgebinders on Yolen after causing a few nuclear explosions went to Ashyn. They continued their experiments and eventually destroyed Ashyn in a nuclear holocaust. The Ars Arcanum says Honor put limits on Surgebinding to prevent it from happening on Roshar. Eventually as Honor was dying, his limits started fading. At the battle of Narak, someone set off a nuclear explosion. This is what created the Shattered Plains. The Knights Radiant and their spren were so horrified that they decided to give up their power to keep it from happening again. Perhaps there were only three hundred Knights at Feverstone Keep because the rest were killed in the explosion.
Interesting... Sanderson does have a sciencey approach to his magic systems, and Mistborn Era 3 is supposed to take place in space so he’s probably going to involve “technology” in at least that series.
I know exactly the quote you're referring to in RoW. It's Raboniel, and it's one of my very favorite passages in the book, because it is SO awesome, so I thought I'd reshare:
"“I wasn’t there when your kind came to our world. My grandmother, however, always mentioned the smoke. At first she thought you had strange skin patterns-but that was because so many human faces had been burned or marked by soot from the destruction of the world they left behind.
“She talked about the way your livestock moaned and cried from their burns. The result of humans Surgebinding without oaths, without checks. Of course, that was before any of us understood the Surges. Before the spren left us for you, before the war started.”
The soot mention makes me think, you know, actual burning. I'm trying to remember my time in the Hiroshima museum regarding pictures of the bombing there if soot was a big thing. That was a few years ago now. I can't quite remember and in my (admittedly, very short) Google search I don't see pictures like that. But I think given the force of nukes there's that wave of pressure that could, perhaps, be interpreted as soot. So I like where your mind is going here. -Eric
@@17thShard Many people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki had thermal burns. There are famous (and hideous) cases where silhouettes of people were left behind on walls because the flash of the bomb charred the outer layer of the wall, except where someone's shadow protected it.
Cool cool, thanks! -Eric
@@carl11547 Do thermal burns leave soot? I’m thinking if they were burned enough to actually chat their skin, they wouldn’t have survived (although I’m not sure how stormlight would play into that... it can heal you from the burns, but then wouldn’t the char go away, too?)
Is the spirit web being more malleable the reason honor resides in the hearts of man?
I have a crackpot theory: Cultivation orchestrated a Bond between BAM and the Nightwatcher, making BAM a Spren/Bondsmith, which gave her the ability to Connect on such a large scale, in order to deal a final blow to Honor with the Recreance. Idk why Cultivation would want Honor dead though.
Maybe it's a stupid long con to become the only shard on Roshar
@@ashamanrich6286 I would fully expect that. Maybe even a way to form an alliance with Odium in order to survive while he goes around the Cosmere killing other Shards.
@@carlsmith4568 she was in a relationship with tanavast I'm pretty sure so that seems unlikely.
I think shes just as ruthless as she is creative. Honor is near preservation level of stagnation in a way. My pet theory is that she knows odiums overall mission and agrees with it, but is against Rayse or even odium itself leading the interstellar charge.
The vessel could have loved tanavast but the ahard might not have been.
Could Mishram be the daughter of Honor turned against him by Odium?
Could Honors ranting about the humans destroying Roshar JUST be him confusing what happened with their previous planet? Like him reliving what happened on Ashyn?
What if ... BAM's imprisonment happened on the battlefield during the Battle at Feverstone Keep and, while they were fighting, the Windrunners and Stonewards (the two primary soldier orders) witnessed the mass genocide-by-labotomy of nearly the entire Singer population. So sickened by what the Knights Radiant had done, they abandoned the Order right then and there.
I tend to think that the Unmade were of other world shards that were some kind of cognitive shadow/sprenlike entities like the Stormfather(of one shard), the NightWatcher (of one shard), or Sibling (of 2 shards). The shards these entities (now Unmade) were related to were the shards holders that Rayse-Odium killed. Or even they came from the pieces of the shards he broke/shattered. In a sense the were Made when he smashed the shard. (Smashed, shattered, broke...I dont know if those are the correct verb is, but the word was not annihilated the power and nature of those shards still exist).
Even though Rayse-Odium didn't take up the shard some bits of that power-shard came with him by default. Especially if these entities were made by his action of breaking the shards or in killing the shard-holder. They were made by Rayse-Odium so they became of Odium but not the Odium-shard. Rayse-Odium didn't want those shards to change* his nature or the nature of his shard, so he had to then Unmake these entities. But he couldn't annihilate them. They persisted. They are different than the Odium-shard because they were originally derived from the nature and power of other broken shards (or combos of those shards). As Unmade they can't dilute the natire of odium--or so Rayse hoped. This could be why Ba-Ado-Mishram was trapped in the gemstone--they thought she was of Odium-shard not realizing she was of some other shard.
Capturing her that messed up other fundamentals aspects of the world because she had a nature/or power that was of not-Odium shard, but was of a different shard that was touched by Odium. Just like the on Scaderial (Mistborn era 1) when someone with god-like power don't know what they are doing or the consequences of changing one thing. Which is probably the issues that caused trouble on Ashen. This was the problem the Radients realized they could mess up Roshar without god-like knowledge from Honnor but having god-like power like the Lord Ruler.
I'm now getting the sense that BAM chose to be imprisoned. Of course there are some nice parallels there with the Recreance; and if she is in fact broadly sympathetic to Honour's side, then debilitating the singers seems like an understandable gambit.
e: actually no forget that that's stupid
The discussion about what have the humans lost due to BAM’s imprisonment took me to something you have already touched upon a bit earlier in the cast.
Is it possible that the human radiants have lost the ability to leave Roshar while maintaining a Nahel bond?
Isn’t that why Mraize is looking for BAM too?
Only the Singers and the bonded spren did react so strong to the imprisonment while the Listeners did not. That’s why I am speculating that maybe just the human Radiants had to be affected only by losing something like the ability to worldhop while still connected to their surges.
Great Shardcast.
My tin foil theory is....
Honor makes splinters of himself that help run Roshar. Odium comes ,unmakes those splinters of Honor ; unmaking is a melding of Odiums power with Honors. This Unmaking starts to integrate Odium with Roshar. Honor is corrupted by his own splinters, and Odium is trapped/bound to Roshar. At sometime Honor again splinters Himself in the creation of the Honor Blades , that cannot be corrupted, to fight the Unmade.
Millennium later, Honor is loosing himself from being over invested and corrupted. As Honors dying becomes more evident to those living in Roshar, Bo makes a move.
The last desolation-
Bo is captured in a gem which is the final blow, that breaks Honors power. This takes Honors tone from the Sibling, causing the tower to fade. The Knights Radiant without Honor to protect them know they will could be corrupted/Unmade themselves and decide to break their oaths to save themselves & Roshar.
Theory about issues with afterlife on Roshar:
That actually makes some sense. Because so far that's the only place that talks of an after life. Maybe they had access to people in the afterlife and that some how broke at some point.
What if the Pashman chose slave form same as the Knights & Spren renounced their vows??