Its not a "pilot deviation" every time the Tower controller is unhappy with how things worked out, though don't tell a New Yorker that. Slowly exiting the runway is not a deviation...
I agree. Absolutely NOT a pilot deviation. When you're on the runway, it is yours unless you accept an instruction to exit specifically. The pilot can always say "unable" in that case. But to be honest, when you've been told someone is on your butt, you don't take your time. You expedite.
While I agree there’s not really a deviation here. The term “possible pilot deviation “ is just the standard phraseology for wanting a pilot to call. Not necessarily this instance, but most are just saying the term because that’s what we’re technically supposed to say whether it’s a deviation or not. The brasher warning as it’s called is actually taped on to every scope in my facility.
My bet the controller wanted to know why taxiway Z and why so long. Not a deviation obviously but I think the controller wanted to convey the issues Air France caused with how they handled that landing. "Possible Deviation" is just standard phraseology, this IMO was just a way to take the situation that happened off the channel.
@@ATCcjm it's standard phraseology for when you think there was a deviation. You don't say it if you don't think there's a deviation -- you say it when you think there is but you of course may not have all the facts.
@@GhostHostMemories ... but I am sure you would agree, he did those things in a most professional and respectful manner... even when 'miffed' with someone "driving around the terminal" and not following his instructions... and I don't recall him giving a "deviation" because someone didn't clear the runway fast enough to fit some poor traffic management.
How is this pilot deviation? Could be a number of reasons why the Air France took so long to exit the runway. Did the Air France at any point deviate from an instruction?? maybe I'm missing something
Regulations say you exit a runway not sit there and circle jerk eachother first. Turkish coming in from a 14 hour flight and air France has to be a dick. French are the most entitled arrogant sobs
It could be a deviation….AIM says to exit the runway WITHOUT DELAY. Before you say “the AIM isn’t regulatory….” Just know that you are still expected to follow it. Air France was dragging ass for no reason….this isn’t on JFK ATC at all.
@@davestillson2269You can’t get a pilot deviation for an arbitrary speculation of instructions given out of the AIM. You may get an azz chewing by ATC, but not a “pilot deviation.” That’s akin to getting a traffic ticket for painting your house the wrong color, against HOA rules. While in rare occasion the AIM has been used in actual court proceedings against a pilot, involving injuries to passengers once I know for sure, but it’s not used for a “founded” pilot deviation.
The controller is a moron. Air France clearly asked for the Zulu taxiway and he exited as cleared to do. Maybe the controller should understand that it’s a heavy bird and doesn’t have the maneuverability of an F1 race car. He should be evaluated and possibly drug tested. He’s way too uptight to be a controller and to call this a pilot deviation is absurd.
The guy overshot the exit a bit and had to do some tight turning to get to his taxiway. Get the hell over it Mr Powertrip. The world needs fewer idiots like that.
@@rockkitty100 You're the kind of person who honks at the guy in front of you because they're not making that turn fast enough for your taste, aren't you?
Kudos to the flight crew for remaining professional, but they must have been tempted to answer with something like "because we're steering a big heavy airplane, not a Ferrari"
Everyone landing there has a big plane. ATC knows what spacings work and this should have worked. It's not a deviation, but they have to land a lot of planes and if everyone was slow like this it wouldn't work. The airport isn't big enough.
Totally agree with your comment. Usual spacing is 5mi. Approach is dealing with heavy volume so it would have been helpful if AF exited the runway as quickly as possible. No harm No foul! Traffic can always be resequenced to land.
During my PPL training 46 years ago we were of a student that had been told that *expedite* meant to _get out of their quick_ so one day they were landing at NZWN and were told to *expedite the runway* and they did. The trainer stopped on the runway, the door flew open the student _got out of there quick_ just as an AirNZ DC-8 did a go-around. 🤦♂ Words matter in our profession.
Every clearance to land includes the implicit instruction to exit the runway as soon as practicable. I don't think either side was at fault; spacing just was a little bit too tight. In order to make a right angle turn in a large jet you have to bring it close to a complete stop. Maybe Air France could have worked a little more briskly, but this was far from a pilot deviation.
The captain is legally responsible and the final call on what is safe is for him, not ATC. There are go-arounds at busy airports quite regularly - it's the price that is paid for Approach setting up an unbroken approach sequence with very little room built in for anything not going exactly according to plan.
He'll call up, ATC will tell him to vacate quicker next time, the pilot will say they will, and that's as far as it will go. ATC was just stressed and wanted to drop the number line.
There's a video of a CRJ who was told to expedite clearing the runway then next thing he's in the grass. Let the pilot operate the aircraft as they see fit.
Wind 070 at 04. Minor downwind component that might explain the request for 22L full length and Z exit instead of the usual J exit. Also A350 as "brake to vacate" (you select the exit prior to landing and the plane apply the correct braking action to slow to 10knt for the exit) but Z is not a high speed exit like J. ATC was just mad for no good reason!
This is so ridiculous. Rwy 31L has a displaced threshold, an extensive one. The landing point would be nowhere near the Air France aircraft. The Turkish Airlines plane still had plenty of time to reach the airport. I think the controller got a little overzealous with that one.
I have generally gotten the benefit of the doubt from ATC and would like to extend the same professional courtesy when they are less than perfect. JFK, however, deserves less mercy.
They need to bring Kennedy Steve back on contract to teach the new controllers how to run traffic correctly. The controller was at fault, not the pilot.
William you know nothing. Check out what HIRO is. You have to vacate a runway without a delay. Not doing so is clearly a deviation as stated in airport's AIP.
Hi folks👋 I’m a pilot and a member of my union’s safety FOQA department. Our pilots never make these “pilot deviation” calls. We usually make them for the pilot on their behalf after we’ve taken the aircrew’s statement. Remember, the phone line is recorded by the FAA. Treat it as if you’re talking to the cops. Have your representation talk to them. Most of these “pilot deviation” calls end up going no where. And if they do, it’s most likely the controller’s ego or their fault. Or both. Treat this as a PSA. Never call the tower when they give you a phone number. Have your union representative call for you. If you don’t have a union rep (corporate flyers), call an aviation attorney to be on the call with you. Never call alone. Ultimately this is YOUR livelihood. Don’t let some new YORKER ruin it for you.
Because the first heavy, having asked and had it confirmed that Zulu was available to exit the runway, didn't exit fast enough which caused the following heavy to go around.
@@buddycheck84 Who decides how fast "fast enough" is? The controller? Or the pilots? Safety is more important than speed, rush culture has caused many accidents already.
not sure if AF has a thing for long landings, but generally, good controllers know which airlines have SOPs that are a little off the norm for the airport - and adjust accordingly
No pilot deviation by Air France just a shit ATC who didn't maintain control of the situation and spacing Standards continue to fall and it will take a catastrophe for the FAA to do anything Asleep at the wheel
ATC did nothing wrong. Air France specifically asked about Zulu for taxi and got the All Clear to Taxi OFF the Runway. Air France failed to follow through because they were picking their nose or jerking his friend off or what but France caused an unnecessary go around for the following heavy. That was the reason for the pilot deviation.
While AF could have exited the runway quicker, it’s not worthy of a pilot deviation. The controller could have told AF to expedite turning off of the runway.
There was no possible pilot deviation. The runway belongs to the landing aircraft until he clears the runway. If spacing isn’t good for the next arrival, that arrival goes around. No Big Deal!
Very clear. He asked for Zulu. Was confirmed and told to hold short of 31L. Unless he went for a piss at the end of the 22L runway, he should have been fine. Control is overworked.
Turning Turkish 11 into the path of an incoming 747 was more dangerous than allowing him to land as Air France was clearing the very end of the runway. Saying not to worry, you can out climb him, isn’t good enough - what if they couldn’t?
Yeah, it is not a deviation. When I m still slowing down on the rwy and ATC tells me to exit, I just ignore. And I will call that negative on copy the number
sounds like the controller was reluctant to approve the Zulu request, pilot had to ask three times to get an ok. Then the pilot burned him pretty good by not vacating in time.
Nahhhh fam, that trip was, what, ELEVEN miles in trail??? AF was told to exit the runway and hold short of another, and they accepted that clearance. This is some pretty spectacular lolligagging by any measure.
The controller is the only way they can support as many planes as they do. The controller is just doing what works 99% of the time. And it wasn't dangerous that it didn't work this time, just messes up all the timings that they have to keep up with.
How the heck is this a pilot deviation? Piss poor planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part. Please tell us this controller had to receive additional training for failure to know procedures.
You remember that United 73 max that slid off the side of the runway in Houston IAH going too fast trying to exit…..ye that’s the reason Air France isn’t going to get off the runway going at a speed of Mach 10 in a heavy 777 or A350-900. Do better with your spacing and get off of me. They be steady doing this nonsense to foreign carriers knowing they aren’t going to snap back.
Just wait… we are bound to get the “Constant open bid at N90, if you’re so smart come show us” comment. It’s Air France’s runway until he clears it. Not yours.
Between a rock and a hard place. Not a pilot deviation. But low situational awareness. Also never asked to expedite vacating. No one wins and the Turkish loses unfortunately. If I were the TK crew I would have possibly taken a small dig at the AF crew with a sarcastic ‘thanks guys’…😉 Crap happens and no one got hurt and nothing damaged. Let is be a lesson in situational awareness for the AF crew. You are not alone in the world…
I was on a PALS flight coming out of White Plains. This controller told us to fly a heading, we did. Then he busted our balls for flying that heading. We tried to clarify and he just hand waved our comments away. What can you do.
Pilot Deviation my Ass. Do the Controllers get reprimanded too when they file a bogus Deviation claim ? How many planes have you landed and taxied off the runway ? You gable too tight - its does not always work out - Its on you buddy !!
What pilot deviation..he screwed up the separation..existing the runway in a safe manner is the pilots job..keeping the separation is atc s job..how tipical
controller should have advised AF-12 -expedite 1st available taxi way on the right without delay, traffic is very short final behind you! Controller sounded Whiney. not effective and sounded combative not the best for Thee international gateway of JFK airport
It's not his accent but I have to say based on listening alone this AF pilot seems half asleep and wouldn't inspire much confidence. Some explanation for Zulu exit might have helped.
They did explain: they were heavy. They were far from asleep, just very busy bringing in a very heavy plane for a tricky landing. They may have overshot the exit a little, hence the tight u-turn, testimony to their weight and wind. If the ATC had been awake, he should have recognized after all his years of experience, that just maybe, the AF Heavy would be slow to exit the Runway and thus, slowed the following plane down a little or gave them a holding pattern . He planned badly and lost the thread.
Everyone getting at the controller is not a licensed controller... While the phraseology was poor he passed traffic information and the airfrance took it's time vacating... You can't do that where runway occupancy times are expected to be so short
OK, I'm going to call "click-bait" on your thumbnail. The positions of the Turkish and the Silk Air were heavily adjusted to suggest a separation issue between those two, which clearly was not the case. There's no need! We're all happy to click on a video offering what this one actually offers.
I think everyone is being a little hard on the controller. Sure, not a deviation, but he is no doubt frustrated that he knows his spacing, approved the Zulu exit, and AF took a lot of liberty with there time on the runway, even after being queued that there was another on final.
Classic example of how deviating from normal procedures bites one in the ass. Controller was nice enough to accommodate the Air France pilot's mysterious request for a Zulu exit from the runway instead of exiting at Juliet where he was going to have to get on anyway. So yeah, the controller approves a long rollout to Zulu and what's the Air France pilot do? Gave a big Merci' to the controller and the Turkish heavy by dragging his ass getting off the runway, forcing a go around. JFK strikes again? Sorry, but this wasn't on him and I'd have been pissed too!
They may be running a minor issue, brake fan failure etc and need to minimise braking. As soon as an aircraft asks for full length all aircraft behind should be slowed to minimum approach speed and prepare for an even more likely go around. Yes the Air France crew could have done better at communicating but it’s not a pilot deviation. Standard arrogant ‘the world revolves around me’ attitude for JFK controllers
@@jonathanbeattie3410 Good post. Did the Air France pilot deviate from established practices with his slow exit from the runway? No, I do not think it rose to that level. And yes, if there was an issue with the aircraft that would have helped explain his request, it should have been communicated to the local controller at the time he made it. But I'm hesitant to point a finger at the Turkish Air pilot. His calculated Vref speed is something that most heavy pilots don't often veer from as it is something mandated by company practices/procedures and expecting him to slow his approach speed during this critical phase of flight with little or no warning to plan, would be in my opinion, impractical.
@@marklupus no the Turkish pilot couldn’t really do anything, 77W vref is 150kts ish depending on weight so…. Airbus are always slower on approach so that’s out of his hands. JFK is busy as hell, they run heavies at minimum sep all the time and go arounds have to be expected. The controller might have just started his shift, the pilots have been awake for 10-12 hours already. They need to expect things like this to happen and not immediately reprimand air crew on the radio for something their procedures are partly to blame for. It’s not professional. If an aircraft went around at LHR, the controllers would handle it very differently.
You better check that runway length of over 12,000 feet. I’ve been retired for 12 years but 04R/22L has been 8400’ for the last 50+ years. Many years ago Airlift couldn’t use 22R because of the low RVR. They requested departure on 22L because the the lower take off RVR minimums with the centerline lights They were heavy going nonstop to LAX I believe. They didn’t bother to check the performance for that runway and dragged the rear of their DC8 through the approach lights for 04R. 22L/04R is the shortest runway at JFK.
Oh, you were in the cockpit of the AF? How do you know they didn't have an issue? How many times have we heard ATC COMPLAINING that Pilots TALK TOO MUCH!! You can't win with these people: either Pilots chat too much or they are not giving enough information! Did ATC Really Want a full explanation, in a French accent, as to WHY the AF needed a long roll-out? The pilots made the request, the ATC approved and after his years of experience, should have understood why they needed a long roll!
You are not running 2 1/2 miles of separation on final if you are following a heavy. The Air France crew were incompetent. That being said, it’s not really a pilot deviation either. Air France should get better pilots.
so....two incompetents managed to fly a $400 million dollar jet across the Atlantic and land heavy, but were slow clearing the taxiway....makes them incompetent how, exactly?
@@swanvictor887 apparently so, nothing is more aggravating than having to send a plane around because some d head takes their time getting off the runway. That Turkish airlines now has to cover the cost of the extra gas spent, the passengers on that plane are also now delayed not to mention approach has to work them again to get them back into line. So yes they are incompetent. There are a ton of incompetent pilots.
ATC did nothing wrong and had every right to cop an attitude because the Air France Heavy took too long to exit 22L. Pilot (s) must've gotten distracted making preps to taxi but neglected to clear the runway.
ATC should have instructed Air France to expedite off the runway if he needed them to. Controller is responsible for separation - pilots don't have eyes in the back of their head. ATC wrong.
@miggleproductions you ever play baseball? Say you're at first and your teammate is on third base. Another teammate hits a homer. You and the other guy start rounding the bases. Guy on third gets to home base but decides to bend down and tie his shoes. WTF are you gonna do? You tell me.
@@davidgraham7932 No, ATC isn't wrong. You have to listen to it again. Air France specifically asked about Zulu and was told it was open. The genius pilot decided to beat his meat instead of finishing what HE Himself (Air France) wanted to do.
Its not a "pilot deviation" every time the Tower controller is unhappy with how things worked out, though don't tell a New Yorker that. Slowly exiting the runway is not a deviation...
I agree. Absolutely NOT a pilot deviation. When you're on the runway, it is yours unless you accept an instruction to exit specifically. The pilot can always say "unable" in that case. But to be honest, when you've been told someone is on your butt, you don't take your time. You expedite.
While I agree there’s not really a deviation here. The term “possible pilot deviation “ is just the standard phraseology for wanting a pilot to call. Not necessarily this instance, but most are just saying the term because that’s what we’re technically supposed to say whether it’s a deviation or not. The brasher warning as it’s called is actually taped on to every scope in my facility.
My bet the controller wanted to know why taxiway Z and why so long. Not a deviation obviously but I think the controller wanted to convey the issues Air France caused with how they handled that landing. "Possible Deviation" is just standard phraseology, this IMO was just a way to take the situation that happened off the channel.
That's just a bad pilot, bunch a tards here.
@@ATCcjm it's standard phraseology for when you think there was a deviation. You don't say it if you don't think there's a deviation -- you say it when you think there is but you of course may not have all the facts.
Is this the same ATC that breaks everyone's balls for the stupidest perceived offense against his delicate sensibilities?
Yes
Typical new Yorker attitude. Worst major city in the world .
Breaks everyone's bawls
Yep and his twin works at the San Carlos tower.
Absolutely justified wat is he doing that long on the runway. He was told about traffic
Kennedy Steve never did nonsense like this...
no he talked about angry puppies, rich people, and facing forward coz pax get nervous when the pilot are looking at them.
@@GhostHostMemories ... but I am sure you would agree, he did those things in a most professional and respectful manner... even when 'miffed' with someone "driving around the terminal" and not following his instructions... and I don't recall him giving a "deviation" because someone didn't clear the runway fast enough to fit some poor traffic management.
@@GoUSA111 Except for *Super Tug x* 😁😁
@@josephking6515 100% 🤣
“Delta Tug 2… Delta Tug 2… Delta Tug 2… EARTH TO DELTA TUG 2!”
How is this pilot deviation? Could be a number of reasons why the Air France took so long to exit the runway. Did the Air France at any point deviate from an instruction?? maybe I'm missing something
You're not missing anything
Regulations say you exit a runway not sit there and circle jerk eachother first. Turkish coming in from a 14 hour flight and air France has to be a dick. French are the most entitled arrogant sobs
It’s not a pilot deviation. This is going to be squashed at the lowest possible level
It could be a deviation….AIM says to exit the runway WITHOUT DELAY. Before you say “the AIM isn’t regulatory….” Just know that you are still expected to follow it. Air France was dragging ass for no reason….this isn’t on JFK ATC at all.
@@davestillson2269You can’t get a pilot deviation for an arbitrary speculation of instructions given out of the AIM. You may get an azz chewing by ATC, but not a “pilot deviation.” That’s akin to getting a traffic ticket for painting your house the wrong color, against HOA rules. While in rare occasion the AIM has been used in actual court proceedings against a pilot, involving injuries to passengers once I know for sure, but it’s not used for a “founded” pilot deviation.
The controller is a moron. Air France clearly asked for the Zulu taxiway and he exited as cleared to do. Maybe the controller should understand that it’s a heavy bird and doesn’t have the maneuverability of an F1 race car. He should be evaluated and possibly drug tested. He’s way too uptight to be a controller and to call this a pilot deviation is absurd.
Im sure this isn't his first heavy that existed out of the run way.
ATC screws up and loses separation, tries to blame it on Air France A350, which the last I checked is a large airplane, to save his own ego? Guy sucks
The guy overshot the exit a bit and had to do some tight turning to get to his taxiway. Get the hell over it Mr Powertrip. The world needs fewer idiots like that.
Air France dragging his ass cost Turkish Airlines probably $20,000 in fuel and time going around and people may have missed connecting flights..
@@rockkitty100Then don’t sequence them in so tightly? A bit more spacing and it would have worked out.
@@rockkitty100 Much better to rush things and have accidents then, right ? Get off your high horse.
@@rockkitty100
You're the kind of person who honks at the guy in front of you because they're not making that turn fast enough for your taste, aren't you?
@@rockkitty100$20,000 in fuel for a go around? Is it running on platinum?
This controller has been involved in a few close calls. When will he be pulled from the line and sent back to training?
Kudos to the flight crew for remaining professional, but they must have been tempted to answer with something like "because we're steering a big heavy airplane, not a Ferrari"
It's Air France, they drive Peugeots 😂
@@craigb5017 I think you mean Bugattis (they were originally French)
Everyone landing there has a big plane. ATC knows what spacings work and this should have worked. It's not a deviation, but they have to land a lot of planes and if everyone was slow like this it wouldn't work. The airport isn't big enough.
Totally agree with your comment. Usual spacing is 5mi. Approach is dealing with heavy volume so it would have been helpful if AF exited the runway as quickly as possible. No harm No foul! Traffic can always be resequenced to land.
😂 that made me laugh ty
Controller never asked the Air France Pilot to expedite vacating the runway.
During my PPL training 46 years ago we were of a student that had been told that *expedite* meant to _get out of their quick_ so one day they were landing at NZWN and were told to *expedite the runway* and they did. The trainer stopped on the runway, the door flew open the student _got out of there quick_ just as an AirNZ DC-8 did a go-around. 🤦♂ Words matter in our profession.
ATC should’ve said clear to land exit runway and Zulu quickly as possible. I think he stacked the traffic in too tight.
Every clearance to land includes the implicit instruction to exit the runway as soon as practicable. I don't think either side was at fault; spacing just was a little bit too tight. In order to make a right angle turn in a large jet you have to bring it close to a complete stop. Maybe Air France could have worked a little more briskly, but this was far from a pilot deviation.
The tower controller doesn't sequence traffic. That's done by approach control. The spacing was fine. Air France was slow to exit the runway.
@@PromptSupercritical well that’s what I meant about the spacing and the tower should’ve said expedite landing
The captain is legally responsible and the final call on what is safe is for him, not ATC. There are go-arounds at busy airports quite regularly - it's the price that is paid for Approach setting up an unbroken approach sequence with very little room built in for anything not going exactly according to plan.
@@Shamrock100 Nailed it.
He should have told AFR "taxiway Z not available due to landing traffic behind. Expedite exit instead, taxiway J if able."
He'll call up, ATC will tell him to vacate quicker next time, the pilot will say they will, and that's as far as it will go. ATC was just stressed and wanted to drop the number line.
There's a video of a CRJ who was told to expedite clearing the runway then next thing he's in the grass. Let the pilot operate the aircraft as they see fit.
XDD good luck with that. Maybe with '80s traffic ;)
Wind 070 at 04. Minor downwind component that might explain the request for 22L full length and Z exit instead of the usual J exit.
Also A350 as "brake to vacate" (you select the exit prior to landing and the plane apply the correct braking action to slow to 10knt for the exit) but Z is not a high speed exit like J.
ATC was just mad for no good reason!
There is another similar situation with AF and JFK ATC and the female pilot basically told the control she Ain’t calling nobody
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This is so ridiculous. Rwy 31L has a displaced threshold, an extensive one. The landing point would be nowhere near the Air France aircraft. The Turkish Airlines plane still had plenty of time to reach the airport. I think the controller got a little overzealous with that one.
Passive aggressive controller here
a "Turkish, slow to final approach speed" early would have helped. . . . but whatevs
that causes a log jam behind him. Just because they only show two planes doesn't mean there were only two planes.
I have generally gotten the benefit of the doubt from ATC and would like to extend the same professional courtesy when they are less than perfect. JFK, however, deserves less mercy.
This guy is pretty angry at something. But it shouldn’t be Air France.
He forgot his lunch and had to pay the standard $45 that JFK gouges travelers
Based on what I heard, there was no pilot deviation.
They need to bring Kennedy Steve back on contract to teach the new controllers how to run traffic correctly. The controller was at fault, not the pilot.
William you know nothing. Check out what HIRO is. You have to vacate a runway without a delay. Not doing so is clearly a deviation as stated in airport's AIP.
Possible pilot deviation for what??? Real jerk move on the controllers part.
What deviation????
wow! somebody has an attitude problem
Ah NY ATC, got to love their you're all wrong and we're right attitude, until they're proven wrong.
Hi folks👋 I’m a pilot and a member of my union’s safety FOQA department. Our pilots never make these “pilot deviation” calls. We usually make them for the pilot on their behalf after we’ve taken the aircrew’s statement. Remember, the phone line is recorded by the FAA. Treat it as if you’re talking to the cops. Have your representation talk to them.
Most of these “pilot deviation” calls end up going no where. And if they do, it’s most likely the controller’s ego or their fault. Or both.
Treat this as a PSA. Never call the tower when they give you a phone number. Have your union representative call for you.
If you don’t have a union rep (corporate flyers), call an aviation attorney to be on the call with you. Never call alone. Ultimately this is YOUR livelihood. Don’t let some new YORKER ruin it for you.
"Welcome to NY! You'll
why the ppd?
I'm asking myself the same thing....
Because the first heavy, having asked and had it confirmed that Zulu was available to exit the runway, didn't exit fast enough which caused the following heavy to go around.
@@buddycheck84 Who decides how fast "fast enough" is? The controller? Or the pilots? Safety is more important than speed, rush culture has caused many accidents already.
@@cdhagenprobably because they came to a dead stop ON THE RUNWAY.
not sure if AF has a thing for long landings, but generally, good controllers know which airlines have SOPs that are a little off the norm for the airport - and adjust accordingly
No pilot deviation by Air France just a shit ATC who didn't maintain control of the situation and spacing
Standards continue to fall and it will take a catastrophe for the FAA to do anything
Asleep at the wheel
ATC did nothing wrong. Air France specifically asked about Zulu for taxi and got the All Clear to Taxi OFF the Runway. Air France failed to follow through because they were picking their nose or jerking his friend off or what but France caused an unnecessary go around for the following heavy.
That was the reason for the pilot deviation.
@@buddycheck84 Thanks, do these people commenting actually listen to the tower? Air France, you be in Kennedy airspace now, LOL. Get with the program!
@@mrf246 😅 🤫 I think they sniffed too much glue in school. 🥴
Where is your evidence that "standards continue to fall?" None. You're just imagining a nonexistent golden past. Grow up.
@@ac583 You should grow up telling other people to "grow up."
While AF could have exited the runway quicker, it’s not worthy of a pilot deviation. The controller could have told AF to expedite turning off of the runway.
Possible pilot deviation for what ? He did what he was told.
This controller needs to sort himself out.
is a slow runway exit really a pilot deviation?
You have to be joking, Pilot Deviation? I think this controller needs a 2 week unpaid reprimand, and retraining after!
I think we as pilots should start telling controller’s to write down a number to call for a “possible controller deviation”.
I think the Department of Government Efficiency just found a great place to start
This guy is funny...period!
There was no possible pilot deviation. The runway belongs to the landing aircraft until he clears the runway. If spacing isn’t good for the next arrival, that arrival goes around. No Big Deal!
This controller might enjoy some time in Great Falls MT.
*"Slow walking" is a deviation of safety norms.*
Very clear. He asked for Zulu. Was confirmed and told to hold short of 31L. Unless he went for a piss at the end of the 22L runway, he should have been fine. Control is overworked.
This ATC loves that drama always involved in a Novella
Turning Turkish 11 into the path of an incoming 747 was more dangerous than allowing him to land as Air France was clearing the very end of the runway. Saying not to worry, you can out climb him, isn’t good enough - what if they couldn’t?
Yeah, it is not a deviation. When I m still slowing down on the rwy and ATC tells me to exit, I just ignore. And I will call that negative on copy the number
sounds like the controller was reluctant to approve the Zulu request, pilot had to ask three times to get an ok. Then the pilot burned him pretty good by not vacating in time.
Nahhhh fam, that trip was, what, ELEVEN miles in trail??? AF was told to exit the runway and hold short of another, and they accepted that clearance. This is some pretty spectacular lolligagging by any measure.
These NY controllers make us sick and put our country to shame with their attitude. Such a sad joke.
Controller was an Adam Henry. Seems common at JFK.
dude couldn’t wait 5 seconds lmao
This is the controller who stacks up these planes too close, gets too bossy, has a terrible temper. He needs fired!!
this controller is going to cause an accident. he needs to go
The controller is the only way they can support as many planes as they do. The controller is just doing what works 99% of the time. And it wasn't dangerous that it didn't work this time, just messes up all the timings that they have to keep up with.
@@zachansen8293 you need to watch more and listen to that douche
How the heck is this a pilot deviation? Piss poor planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part. Please tell us this controller had to receive additional training for failure to know procedures.
Why turn the Turkish towards the Silkwest also. Is there not a standard missed approach? Doesnt make sense
I’m not a controller. Wayyy too much stress.
You remember that United 73 max that slid off the side of the runway in Houston IAH going too fast trying to exit…..ye that’s the reason Air France isn’t going to get off the runway going at a speed of Mach 10 in a heavy 777 or A350-900. Do better with your spacing and get off of me. They be steady doing this nonsense to foreign carriers knowing they aren’t going to snap back.
They need to stop the policy of giving planes number 2 on approach clearance to land.
The plane that just landed owns the runway until safely vacated!!! Period!!!!!
Just wait… we are bound to get the “Constant open bid at N90, if you’re so smart come show us” comment. It’s Air France’s runway until he clears it. Not yours.
Between a rock and a hard place. Not a pilot deviation. But low situational awareness. Also never asked to expedite vacating. No one wins and the Turkish loses unfortunately. If I were the TK crew I would have possibly taken a small dig at the AF crew with a sarcastic ‘thanks guys’…😉 Crap happens and no one got hurt and nothing damaged. Let is be a lesson in situational awareness for the AF crew. You are not alone in the world…
It’s always Air France that they have a problem with…
That wasn't a pilot deviation, he just overshot the taxiway... Sometimes shit happens.
I was on a PALS flight coming out of White Plains. This controller told us to fly a heading, we did. Then he busted our balls for flying that heading. We tried to clarify and he just hand waved our comments away. What can you do.
He could have asked Turkish to slow down and told Air France to expedite.
When is this menace going to be retrained or reprimanded?
Air traffic control is the one thing normal automation can do.. this radio message thing is so 1960s
Pilot Deviation my Ass. Do the Controllers get reprimanded too when they file a bogus Deviation claim ? How many planes have you landed and taxied off the runway ? You gable too tight - its does not always work out - Its on you buddy !!
That was NOT pilot deviation.
That controller couldn't even call the correct flight numbers. What a dolt.
Bit of a diva that controller.
Sorry and sad.
What a Drama Queen
TH-cam has really become a forum for beating on ATC
What pilot deviation..he screwed up the separation..existing the runway in a safe manner is the pilots job..keeping the separation is atc s job..how tipical
controller should have advised AF-12 -expedite 1st available taxi way on the right without delay, traffic is very short final behind you! Controller sounded Whiney. not effective and sounded combative not the best for Thee international gateway of JFK airport
but the AF Pilots request Zulu because they knew they were unable to use other exits, due to weight and wind.
Pilot deviation whereeee?
Even though this france pilot is so slow…
It's not his accent but I have to say based on listening alone this AF pilot seems half asleep and wouldn't inspire much confidence. Some explanation for Zulu exit might have helped.
They did explain: they were heavy. They were far from asleep, just very busy bringing in a very heavy plane for a tricky landing. They may have overshot the exit a little, hence the tight u-turn, testimony to their weight and wind. If the ATC had been awake, he should have recognized after all his years of experience, that just maybe, the AF Heavy would be slow to exit the Runway and thus, slowed the following plane down a little or gave them a holding pattern . He planned badly and lost the thread.
Insane... I have no idea what the basis of that might be, failing to check the rear vision mirror?
Bet u that contrôler drives a Tesla ,vegan and lives in the upper east side
Everyone getting at the controller is not a licensed controller... While the phraseology was poor he passed traffic information and the airfrance took it's time vacating... You can't do that where runway occupancy times are expected to be so short
OK, I'm going to call "click-bait" on your thumbnail. The positions of the Turkish and the Silk Air were heavily adjusted to suggest a separation issue between those two, which clearly was not the case. There's no need! We're all happy to click on a video offering what this one actually offers.
cyclists fault
What cyclists???
@brandonkienzler4842 the one taking off on 69 right
😂😂😂
I think everyone is being a little hard on the controller. Sure, not a deviation, but he is no doubt frustrated that he knows his spacing, approved the Zulu exit, and AF took a lot of liberty with there time on the runway, even after being queued that there was another on final.
Classic example of how deviating from normal procedures bites one in the ass. Controller was nice enough to accommodate the Air France pilot's mysterious request for a Zulu exit from the runway instead of exiting at Juliet where he was going to have to get on anyway. So yeah, the controller approves a long rollout to Zulu and what's the Air France pilot do? Gave a big Merci' to the controller and the Turkish heavy by dragging his ass getting off the runway, forcing a go around. JFK strikes again? Sorry, but this wasn't on him and I'd have been pissed too!
They may be running a minor issue, brake fan failure etc and need to minimise braking. As soon as an aircraft asks for full length all aircraft behind should be slowed to minimum approach speed and prepare for an even more likely go around. Yes the Air France crew could have done better at communicating but it’s not a pilot deviation. Standard arrogant ‘the world revolves around me’ attitude for JFK controllers
@@jonathanbeattie3410 Good post. Did the Air France pilot deviate from established practices with his slow exit from the runway? No, I do not think it rose to that level. And yes, if there was an issue with the aircraft that would have helped explain his request, it should have been communicated to the local controller at the time he made it. But I'm hesitant to point a finger at the Turkish Air pilot. His calculated Vref speed is something that most heavy pilots don't often veer from as it is something mandated by company practices/procedures and expecting him to slow his approach speed during this critical phase of flight with little or no warning to plan, would be in my opinion, impractical.
@@marklupus no the Turkish pilot couldn’t really do anything, 77W vref is 150kts ish depending on weight so…. Airbus are always slower on approach so that’s out of his hands. JFK is busy as hell, they run heavies at minimum sep all the time and go arounds have to be expected. The controller might have just started his shift, the pilots have been awake for 10-12 hours already. They need to expect things like this to happen and not immediately reprimand air crew on the radio for something their procedures are partly to blame for. It’s not professional. If an aircraft went around at LHR, the controllers would handle it very differently.
You better check that runway length of over 12,000 feet. I’ve been retired for 12 years but 04R/22L has been 8400’ for the last 50+ years. Many years ago Airlift couldn’t use 22R because of the low RVR. They requested departure on 22L because the the lower take off RVR minimums with the centerline lights They were heavy going nonstop to LAX I believe. They didn’t bother to check the performance for that runway and dragged the rear of their DC8 through the approach lights for 04R. 22L/04R is the shortest runway at JFK.
Oh, you were in the cockpit of the AF? How do you know they didn't have an issue? How many times have we heard ATC COMPLAINING that Pilots TALK TOO MUCH!! You can't win with these people: either Pilots chat too much or they are not giving enough information! Did ATC Really Want a full explanation, in a French accent, as to WHY the AF needed a long roll-out? The pilots made the request, the ATC approved and after his years of experience, should have understood why they needed a long roll!
Woahhh
Air France captain had to finish his croissant before exiting the runway.
You are not running 2 1/2 miles of separation on final if you are following a heavy. The Air France crew were incompetent. That being said, it’s not really a pilot deviation either. Air France should get better pilots.
so....two incompetents managed to fly a $400 million dollar jet across the Atlantic and land heavy, but were slow clearing the taxiway....makes them incompetent how, exactly?
@@swanvictor887 apparently so, nothing is more aggravating than having to send a plane around because some d head takes their time getting off the runway. That Turkish airlines now has to cover the cost of the extra gas spent, the passengers on that plane are also now delayed not to mention approach has to work them again to get them back into line.
So yes they are incompetent. There are a ton of incompetent pilots.
ATC did nothing wrong and had every right to cop an attitude because the Air France Heavy took too long to exit 22L.
Pilot (s) must've gotten distracted making preps to taxi but neglected to clear the runway.
...and other hilarious jokes you can tell yourself.
ATC should have instructed Air France to expedite off the runway if he needed them to. Controller is responsible for separation - pilots don't have eyes in the back of their head. ATC wrong.
@miggleproductions you ever play baseball? Say you're at first and your teammate is on third base. Another teammate hits a homer.
You and the other guy start rounding the bases. Guy on third gets to home base but decides to bend down and tie his shoes. WTF are you gonna do? You tell me.
@@buddycheck84 This is a professional aviation environment, not a baseball game.
@@davidgraham7932 No, ATC isn't wrong. You have to listen to it again. Air France specifically asked about Zulu and was told it was open. The genius pilot decided to beat his meat instead of finishing what HE Himself (Air France) wanted to do.