@@Vimpmeat on top of this, if I remind someone to do something they wanted to do but forgot, and as a result of my act of reminding them, they did it... did I remove their free will?
You reasoned well. It is a good reminder for Christians to not be dogmatic about things we do not know for certain while still offering reasonable explanations. We have good reason to expect God to do something similar with all mankind, as what he did with Pharaoh, just prior to armageddon. I think of it as polarization. I imagine God will force people to take a stronger stand one way or the other without making up their mind for them, simply amplifying whatever their inclination already is, so that there will be no one 'sitting on the fence' as it were when armageddon comes. At Matthew 12:30 Jesus said "Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
He slaughtered their kids for no reason. That is an evil thing to do. Stop twisting it into knots to try to make it good. It wasn't good. He killed their kids. Even though they had NOTHING to do with Pharaoh's decision (which was really God's decision). He killed their kids. HELLO?
God killed tens of thousands of innocent children _(who had NOTHING to do with releasing the Hebrew slaves)_ ... and you are trying to explain how it was a ''good'' thing. I think you should wake up a bit.
@@USERNAMEfieldempty There are 3 things to consider. 1. There is no such thing as a truly innocent child. We are all born in sin and deserving of death. Romans 5:12 reminds us "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." We all inherited imperfection from Adam and Eve causing us to fall short of the glory of God. Only through his undeserved kindness has he provided a ransom for those exercising faith in Jesus in order for our sins to be blotted out. 2. Just because God destroyed people in the past does not rule out the possibility that they will be brought back in the resurrection. Their death may have served God's purpose at the time without them having been ultimately judged. Acts 24:15 tells us their will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. They will then be judged according to their actions after being resurrected. 3. To the extent that children can not make such decisions for themselves, God holds the parents responsible for the lives of their children.
@@Vimpmeat I'm sorry, but you are justifying terrible actions based on nothing. Adam and Eve provably didn't exist, that's just an ancient story, we don't inherit sin at birth. That's a very sick idea. _''Just because God destroyed people in the past does not rule out the possibility that they will be brought back in the resurrection. Their death may have served God's purpose at the time without them having been ultimately judged.''_ Do you know how cold-blooded and scary that sounds to someone outside your faith. It is chillingly unconcerned about killed children. _''God holds the parents responsible for the lives of their children.''_ If he killed your kids because the leader of your country did something, would you be OK with that morally?
@@USERNAMEfieldempty If you don't believe the Bible is God's word then why would you care that the Bible claims God killed children? It would mean you don't believe God did any such thing, so what does it matter to you? I believe it, which means I also believe the rest of it which says God is love, so ultimately he does the most loving thing in any situation. I can't, as God's creation, claim to know better than him what is right and wrong. If you think this life is all their is than yes, much of what is said in the Bible will seem cruel to you. But as Christians we know better. God is never unjust. Death in this system of things is temporary so I do not fear it or feel bad for those who have died. I feel bad for those that mourn since they are the only ones suffering from a death.
I think your interpretation makes sense. It appears obvious to me that whether or not god can see the future, he knows the hearts of men and can present choices and obstacles to us that he knows will play out. Look at the tree of knowledge in the garden, God may have wanted Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit on the face of it, but perhaps there is more. Tolkien once wrote in "The Silmarillion"; after creation was complete and "Melkor" (Satan) created discordance or sin, Iluvatar (god) spoke and said: "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." Its an interesting concept to grapple with, that all things are god and for the good, bad and ugly, there is a wonderful future which we cannot imagine.
If your argument is that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart"="he let Pharaoh do what he wanted to anyway", that's the same as Yahweh doing nothing and functionally equivalent to "Pharaoh hardened his own heart." However, there is a difference in the text, indicating to me that something different was going on. Yahweh intervened with a man's free will not to prevent suffering, but to cause more suffering, and for no rational purpose. This is consistent with his character as he appears to be a being who loves violence and genocide for its own sake. And of course he couldn't just say "Let there be forgiveness" like he said "Let there be light" and have it be done, no he had to satisfy his weird torture fetish on his own son. In short, Yahweh doesn't deserve the title of God, and I'm very happy that he doesn't exist.
How did God harden his heart? Did people say or do things to test pharoh, and his heart hardened? And God already knew it would be hardened, so, I like to believe that God in his infinite wisdom. Did what he did, because if he had not. Then the people of the land, may have pursued the people well past what they did. And also, it also could have caused the event at the red sea crossing to happen as it did. Killing many, and disueding egypt from pursuing it further. Thereby saving many, who have time to repent. However, God is perfect and all knowing. So he knows who will, and who wont repent. And if you're in the latter, then he can and will do things for his people through them. Think about the story of Jackie Billinger, the christian who walked into the walled city of kowloon to preach and save drug addicts who were slaves to the triads. And not only did they say "ok sure, you can do that" but they also agreed that anyone who wanted to leave the triads and get off drugs, would be given permission to do so. Now, this is literally a place unaffected by law. If thats not God moving people to his will, i dont know what is. He is just, and good, always. So I do not question why he hardened pharohs heart, or how. Because I know he did it for the good of his people, and/or to punish the wicked who will never repent and turn to him.
God killed their Kids, Man. Do you understand that? Have you grasped that? God forced Pharaoh to refuse Moses again and again, each time getting more and more destructive, until in the end, He killed the oldest kid of EVERY FAMILY IN EGYPT! That is pure evil. There is no excuse for that shit. He killed innocent children!!! LOTS and LOTS of them. What had those children got to do with Pharaoh's decision? Stop making excuses and look at the appalling truth! He forced Pharaoh to say ''No'', then killed everyone's kids as punishment. That is utterly psychotic evil.
The God of the Bible let's people participate/partner with Him in bringing about His will. It's not that He needs anyone to do anything for Him, but He allows people to participate/partner with Him in bringing about His will because it gives us meaning and purpose and is good for us, whether it's apologetics or feeding the poor or sheltering the homeless.
A Molinist will have god put a man in a desert and then claim he didn’t tinker with that man’s heart by “making” him desire water. The man desired water all on his own. Utter foolishness
He mass-slaughtered their innocent kids! How is that good??? You simply cannot justify it. It was an EVIL thing to do. God did an evil thing. It's right in front of your eyes!!!
The fact that God intervened, removes his free will.
I agree.
So if I encourage someone to do something and then they go and do it, have I removed their free will? I have certainly intervened.
@@Vimpmeat on top of this, if I remind someone to do something they wanted to do but forgot, and as a result of my act of reminding them, they did it... did I remove their free will?
@@Vimpmeat... he didn't "intervene" he made do something , that he wouldnt have done ...
@@manopapadopoulos6043 Not sure where you got that idea. The scriptures do not support that viewpoint.
it is very obvious from the text that god intervened and nullified pharaoh's free will.
You reasoned well. It is a good reminder for Christians to not be dogmatic about things we do not know for certain while still offering reasonable explanations. We have good reason to expect God to do something similar with all mankind, as what he did with Pharaoh, just prior to armageddon. I think of it as polarization. I imagine God will force people to take a stronger stand one way or the other without making up their mind for them, simply amplifying whatever their inclination already is, so that there will be no one 'sitting on the fence' as it were when armageddon comes. At Matthew 12:30 Jesus said "Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
He slaughtered their kids for no reason. That is an evil thing to do. Stop twisting it into knots to try to make it good. It wasn't good. He killed their kids. Even though they had NOTHING to do with Pharaoh's decision (which was really God's decision). He killed their kids. HELLO?
God killed tens of thousands of innocent children _(who had NOTHING to do with releasing the Hebrew slaves)_ ... and you are trying to explain how it was a ''good'' thing. I think you should wake up a bit.
@@USERNAMEfieldempty There are 3 things to consider. 1. There is no such thing as a truly innocent child. We are all born in sin and deserving of death. Romans 5:12 reminds us "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." We all inherited imperfection from Adam and Eve causing us to fall short of the glory of God. Only through his undeserved kindness has he provided a ransom for those exercising faith in Jesus in order for our sins to be blotted out.
2. Just because God destroyed people in the past does not rule out the possibility that they will be brought back in the resurrection. Their death may have served God's purpose at the time without them having been ultimately judged. Acts 24:15 tells us their will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. They will then be judged according to their actions after being resurrected.
3. To the extent that children can not make such decisions for themselves, God holds the parents responsible for the lives of their children.
@@Vimpmeat
I'm sorry, but you are justifying terrible actions based on nothing.
Adam and Eve provably didn't exist, that's just an ancient story, we don't inherit sin at birth. That's a very sick idea.
_''Just because God destroyed people in the past does not rule out the possibility that they will be brought back in the resurrection. Their death may have served God's purpose at the time without them having been ultimately judged.''_ Do you know how cold-blooded and scary that sounds to someone outside your faith. It is chillingly unconcerned about killed children.
_''God holds the parents responsible for the lives of their children.''_ If he killed your kids because the leader of your country did something, would you be OK with that morally?
@@USERNAMEfieldempty If you don't believe the Bible is God's word then why would you care that the Bible claims God killed children? It would mean you don't believe God did any such thing, so what does it matter to you? I believe it, which means I also believe the rest of it which says God is love, so ultimately he does the most loving thing in any situation. I can't, as God's creation, claim to know better than him what is right and wrong. If you think this life is all their is than yes, much of what is said in the Bible will seem cruel to you. But as Christians we know better. God is never unjust. Death in this system of things is temporary so I do not fear it or feel bad for those who have died. I feel bad for those that mourn since they are the only ones suffering from a death.
The Bible teaches that people have free choice, but God is sovereign.
So no free choice when God wants to prove a point.
I think your interpretation makes sense. It appears obvious to me that whether or not god can see the future, he knows the hearts of men and can present choices and obstacles to us that he knows will play out. Look at the tree of knowledge in the garden, God may have wanted Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit on the face of it, but perhaps there is more. Tolkien once wrote in "The Silmarillion"; after creation was complete and "Melkor" (Satan) created discordance or sin, Iluvatar (god) spoke and said: "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
Its an interesting concept to grapple with, that all things are god and for the good, bad and ugly, there is a wonderful future which we cannot imagine.
Except that God did want that, it is how he introduced evil into the world to contrast with good.
I like that Polo.
If your argument is that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart"="he let Pharaoh do what he wanted to anyway", that's the same as Yahweh doing nothing and functionally equivalent to "Pharaoh hardened his own heart." However, there is a difference in the text, indicating to me that something different was going on. Yahweh intervened with a man's free will not to prevent suffering, but to cause more suffering, and for no rational purpose. This is consistent with his character as he appears to be a being who loves violence and genocide for its own sake. And of course he couldn't just say "Let there be forgiveness" like he said "Let there be light" and have it be done, no he had to satisfy his weird torture fetish on his own son. In short, Yahweh doesn't deserve the title of God, and I'm very happy that he doesn't exist.
How did God harden his heart? Did people say or do things to test pharoh, and his heart hardened? And God already knew it would be hardened, so, I like to believe that God in his infinite wisdom. Did what he did, because if he had not. Then the people of the land, may have pursued the people well past what they did. And also, it also could have caused the event at the red sea crossing to happen as it did. Killing many, and disueding egypt from pursuing it further. Thereby saving many, who have time to repent.
However, God is perfect and all knowing. So he knows who will, and who wont repent. And if you're in the latter, then he can and will do things for his people through them. Think about the story of Jackie Billinger, the christian who walked into the walled city of kowloon to preach and save drug addicts who were slaves to the triads. And not only did they say "ok sure, you can do that" but they also agreed that anyone who wanted to leave the triads and get off drugs, would be given permission to do so. Now, this is literally a place unaffected by law. If thats not God moving people to his will, i dont know what is.
He is just, and good, always. So I do not question why he hardened pharohs heart, or how. Because I know he did it for the good of his people, and/or to punish the wicked who will never repent and turn to him.
God killed their Kids, Man. Do you understand that? Have you grasped that? God forced Pharaoh to refuse Moses again and again, each time getting more and more destructive, until in the end, He killed the oldest kid of EVERY FAMILY IN EGYPT! That is pure evil. There is no excuse for that shit. He killed innocent children!!! LOTS and LOTS of them. What had those children got to do with Pharaoh's decision? Stop making excuses and look at the appalling truth! He forced Pharaoh to say ''No'', then killed everyone's kids as punishment. That is utterly psychotic evil.
He killed all their kids. What's so good about that?
If a god was actually real it wouldn’t need apologetics.
You are correct, he doesn't. If atheism was correct, it wouldn't need its own apologetics.
@@gf11511walter
The God of the Bible let's people participate/partner with Him in bringing about His will. It's not that He needs anyone to do anything for Him, but He allows people to participate/partner with Him in bringing about His will because it gives us meaning and purpose and is good for us, whether it's apologetics or feeding the poor or sheltering the homeless.
So good!
This reply is neutral.
A Molinist will have god put a man in a desert and then claim he didn’t tinker with that man’s heart by “making” him desire water. The man desired water all on his own. Utter foolishness
He mass-slaughtered their innocent kids! How is that good??? You simply cannot justify it. It was an EVIL thing to do. God did an evil thing. It's right in front of your eyes!!!