@Pedro Kantor Remember that the bureacracy in the Imperium maybe so large that it's getting "lost", you know the whole need to know basis kind of thing
@Pedro Kantor - I just made a post about this. I too find it silly. Even if "records were lost" as the poorly thought out excuse always is... each astartes would have their heritage nailed into them even as a neophyte as this is a massive badge of honor to the astartes and something they would not forget. The ONLY way they could truly lose this knowledge was if records were lost AND all surviving members had died.
And here everyone we have another prime example of the Inquisitio making everything worse. Seriously, the Soul Drinkers had every right to reclaim _THEIR_ property, Treaty of Olympus be damned!
Considering the Mechanicus stole the relic, I would say the Soul Drinkers were justified in wiping them out to retrieve said relic. Damn, 40k justice is brutal.
I love how the Blood Angels successor guy basically just walks in and makes it an episode of Maury. "It turns out, Dorn is NOT the father." (My bet is on Fulgrim, just look at the armour)
I would highly doubt it, Fulgrim's geneseed was renowned for its purity and stability, funny enough, considering how Fulgrim turned out as a daemon primarch.
@@FatalShadow13 tbh fall of fulgrim was a tragedy and wouldnt have happened if he didnt pick the posessed sword. Even the pure clone of Fulgrim who wasnt corrupted by fulgrim was disgusted by the demon fulgrim wven tho they shared lots of memories
@@FatalShadow13 yea Angron = the saddest case Fulgrim = in many ways the greatest loss Magnus = the.... i don't know... never felt really sad for him. I would say that is pretty meh... i guess magnus was the most stupid Horus = the most tragic Perturabo = the one that should have been prevented before Horus fell Lorgar = ... i am not giving lorgar a positive spin... fuck that guy. Mortarion = the most paradoxical
@@And-ur6ol Magnus would probably be second tragic on this due to the events of 1. The Burning of Prospero because of Horus (Which was a Traitor by now) Said to Leman Russ that Big E changed orders and wanted Magnus dead than be captured and taken into Terra, causing them to join Chaos in thr First Place 2. Tzeench just manipulated them to make Magnus and the TS join Chaos as he (apparently idk) used the Flesh Change as a Bargaining Chip 3. Ahriman wanted to stop the flesh change, causing the Rubric of Ahriman to happen and turning nearly every non-psyker TS to Dust
The soul drinker series was one of my all time favourite books. I want to believe that they come from a lost primarch. They were erased from imperial history for some unknown transgression. Their children were erased from imperial records for their 'sin' of standing up for what is right. All that's left of them is a tiny plaque somewhere admitting they existed and they were righteous.
I'd say Alpha Legion works well with story too. Especially due to the loyalty to Emperor but not Imperium that fits the idea of Omegon and his Alpha Legion being loyalists
@@jarreldoomis3502 hes probably referring to the rapid degeneration of their genetic structure, the thousand sons suffered from a flaw called "The fleshchange" which caused rapid mutation and degeneration of their genetic and physical forms. The souldrinkers also suffered from rapid mutation.
@Pedro Kantor True, It's definitely a theory more than proved by evidence. Given the Inquisition's actions though, loyalty to the Emperor and best interest of Imperium aren't that commonly matched. I think it would be cool for them to be loyalists disguising their broader operations against Chaos by attacking outposts etc in a way that imperial forces react to block worse attacks by other Chaos forces. Kill thousands to save billions down the line sort of idea..
Everyone can debate as much as they want about the Soul Drinkers, but let be known that Sarpedon has possibly the most unique model for a chapter master.
@@alanmerino9440 I looked it up and seen a purple coloured(unpainted obviously) rubber looking thing is that it? It looked great even as a big purple guy! Haha
I am inclined to think that one of the lost legions is the most likely source. Iconography can be chosen to mask an origin, so the blood angel link is spurious at best. The only true indicator of heritage is the genetics. They have only one distinguishable trait and it is a trait that none of the other legions display, thus the most likely result is that they stem from a different genetic line. I imagine that upon deciding to form the second founding, the Imperial Fists whom originated from a lost primach were separated into a new legion. An easy and efficient way to hide them since no marine would suddenly start showing different genetic flaws or significant genetic deviation from their other chapter members. The legion was said to be formed from active Imperial Fists, who had a distinctive and unique fighting style compared to the others. While many legions had such divisions in their ranks most distinct combat styles were separated legion to legion rather than internally. Furthermore, if the founding members had known of a different origin (had they been loyalist alpha legion for instance) there would have been rumors or hints of it in their own chapters histories. The chapter were utterly convinced they were Fists, so if they have a different genetic makeup then surely the original founding members were unaware of it. As for the pale spear, what if Dorn was not lying? What if he DID obtain it during the Great Crusade? What if it had belonged to one of his lost brothers and was put in his possession after their execution/assassination? It would take no effort what so ever for Malchador to arrange for the Marines from a lost legion to be separated into their own Chapter and persuade Dorn to gift them the weapon of their Primach. During their time as Imperial Fists they had proven their loyalty to the emperor, and there was no evidence of them having even the slightest idea of their past so it would be safe to form them into a chapter.
How would we know? If the remains of the lost legions were absorbed into the Fists and Ultramarines and even the memories of the Primachs involved were wiped, the only ones who would know would be a very small handful in the highest levels of the imperium, fingers on one hand kinda numbers, and they probably never left any records of it. Any successor chapters that show unusual genetic heritage might be a clue, depending on how many survived whatever happened to the Lost. Perhaps of the legion absorbed into the Fists there were only just enough to form one chapter. Whatever happened to cause the deaths of the primachs probably involved a good deal of fighting and cost the legions many marines before it ended. Do the Ultra Marines have any successors with unusual traits that don't match any other Founding legion?
I absolutely love 40k theories. Not only does this channel introduce lore and other integral aspects in the video to give even the most novice of 40k readers enough info to understand the question but the questions are so... thought provoking. I honestly didn’t think of some of these theories proposed such as chalice being representative of the blood angels thus implying a possible connection. This channel is possibly my favorite in terms of 40k.
Finally, the video addressing one of the biggest questions I've had about 40K lore. Thanks Remleiz. Alpha Legion and the lost primarchs were two of my suspects. The other was the Night Lords. Konrad Curze had such a powerful cannibalism/memory echo trait he was educated by it while growing up feral in the darkness of his urban/mining planet; Sarpedon's use of psychic terror; the quick-strike doctrines; and the chapter's hatred of criminal corruption all lean to a loyalist Night Lord chapter. But how would they have gotten into Rogal Dorn's graces and into Imperial records as an Imperial Fist chapter, especially after Curze nearly pummeled his brother Dorn to death before the Heresy?
The Soul Drinkers were the first renegade chapter that i read about in the 40k universe. It was very confusing because I was still new to 40K and did not understand this dynamic until I did more research into the 40k. The chapter lore was very enlightening to say the least.
Malcador the Sigillite removed the memories of the lost Legions from Dorn's mind but in other sources Mortarion simply says they were ordered not to talk about them. Seems to me if they were sent into the other Legions then there would be many chapters from their stock.
Both are true. When Malcador tells Dorn to remember the lost Primarchs and tell him their names, he realises that he actually doesn't know. Ordering everyone not to talk about them just makes it less likely that they'll realise their memories of them have been tampered with.
I like the idea of the second or 11th legion being "pirates" and therefore the soul drinkers could be descended from one of them and that's why they were so good with boarding actions and void combat. Just a cool thought. Soul Drinkers are one of my favorite chapters. First Warhammer 40k books I read were in the Soul Drinkers Omnibus.
I very much like this video, and the idea of them being 20th Legion successors! Thanks! Edit: I also got to hear the quote you mentioned about Rogal losing his memory of his lost brothers!
I have always enjoyed the idea of these "renegade" or "disillusioned" chapters being descendants of the Traitor legions. Lets face it, the Loyalists are little... blinded, by their devotion.. To see the idiocy of the Imperium at large.
You literally have a Sanguinary Priest giving testimony on the Soul Drinkers' geneseed. They would recognize their own before any other primarch's. I think the Blood Angels are conclusively ruled out.
I like the Alpha Legion Loyalists idea, especially given the link with Pale / Soul Spear. The idea that one or more helped Dorn against Alpharius and so he protected the Loyalists by given them the Spear and his name during the 2nd Founding is cool. It also plays well into the ultimate storyline of Emperor loyalty but turning on the Imperium that fits the potential of Omegon and elememts of the Alpha Legion remaining loyal
I think the lost legion theory is the most likely, with the Alpha Legion successors as the second most likely. I don’t think Blood Angels are a likely primogenitor. If they were, I think the Angels Sanguine have been able to recognise the gene seed as Sanguinius’.
I have always wondered if the Soul Drinkers and White Templars, two chapters with unknown foundings falsely believed to have been of the Fists and Ultramarines respectfully, are remnants of the two missing Legions. We know from various Heresy novels that the Fists and Ultramarines did indeed take in such remnants.
tbh, I always thought the Soul Drinkers were from the gene-stock of either the Blood Angels (it might just be the name) or the Emperor's Children (it's that colour scheme), but the idea that they might be from the 2nd or 11th legions, well, that's awesome. I've been wanting more info on those legions since I started the hobby back in '93.
@@Mugdorna yes, which is why I included in the brackets why I thought they were from those legions, as I was clearly wrong, but then I haven't thought about the Soul Drinkers since 4th edition. Also, in 40k a colour is not just a colour, ask any Ork player which colour is da fasta colour.
I personally think they are loyalist Emperor’s Children. Firstly, PURPLE. Secondly their attitude towards battle. Fulgrim, despite his misgivings in terms of being overly fond of revelry always reached for a more perfected form of war. This can be equated you how the Soul Drinkers rationalized Sarpedon’s spider mutations when he killed Gorgoleon, IE a more perfected way of waging war. Thirdly their overall seemingly unprompted descent into mutation after Sarpedon slew Gorgoleon (admittedly my weakest point) If I recall this was prior to making a Space Hulk into the chapter’s fortress monastery and cannot be attributed to warp corruption from the hulk. EC geneseed was remarkably unstable, and only Fulgrim’s return halted the gene degradation of his sons. This would also fit into the point about how Soul Drinker gene stock is not as stable as Dorn. So I suppose the trauma and stress of the situation caused this issue to reignite.
The original tainted EC gene-seed stock resulted in constant tumor development and organ failure, which are exceptionally mundane mutations when it comes to anything Chaos can inflict upon a body. The cause of Sarpedon's dramatic mutation is very likely Tzeenchian in nature, as he and his men came into contact with a mutant who claimed to worship the Emperor as an "Architect of Fate" some time around their operation to reclaim the Soulspear. This mutant is later revealed to have been receiving visions from the Daemon Prince Abraxes, and thus a clear line of influence can be drawn to unwitting (and unwilling) Chaotic corruption.
Rewatching this and the way malcador says it makes it sound like the 2 lost primarchs were lost after already being united with their legions. One has to be the Minators and that is what the highlords use to make them do whatever they want.
The Soulspear's blades are described as caged singularities, if I remember correctly, the Pale Spear turned whatever it touched to dust. That said I find it hard to believe they are the same.
Great video, much thanks. I am painting all my Primaris Marines as Soul Drinkers. I believe there is a bit of lore about Guilliman re-establishing the Chapter?
If the Ultramarines actually had non-Ultra troops the mandatory geneseed tithe would have detected it immediately during purity tests. GW may not have properly thought this through, however.
My first book was the soul drinkers omnibus. I was hooked forever. It was destiny. I knew nothing about warhammer. I saw the book and picked it up on a whim. It’s took over my life;never leaves my mind.
Although the lost legions is an interesting idea I think the Alpha Legion theory works, as almost every Traitor Legion had Loyalist Marines who Remained Loyal, and Survived the Hersey. Although their fates have never been fully explored, we do know some of them ended up as the Founders of the Grey Knights', so it is possible some of their numbers ended up being assigned to certain loyalist legions, ie The Fists and Ultra Marines, it might also be why the cursed founding went so badly.
If the warriors from the lost legions we’re integrated into the Imperial Fists that could explain some of Rogan Dorn’s stubbornness during the Iron Cage battle that ended with a portion of the Legion being destroyed. Perhaps he stayed there to use the Iron Warriors to cull those not of his direct blood? And afterwards spun them off into their own Chapter with them being none the wiser as to their origins? That way he kept the Imperial Fists “pure” without actually doing any of the dirty work himself?
Fun fact about the Pale Spear, from Alpharius' Primarchs novel: Omegon supposedly found it on a barren, empty planet after the Primarchs were scattered. Alpharius says the account is a lie, but it's the Alpha Legion, so who knows if it really is. But it sounds oddly similar to Dorn discovering the Soulspear, right? And unrelated, but I tend to just skip over any "lost Legion descendant" claims about official Chapters, since GW apparently tell their authors not to do that, ever. If there's ever an official reveal about any Chapter with unknown gene-seed, it will be one of the eighteen known Legions, likely a loyalist (although they have hinted at Chapters like Minotaurs and Carcharodons being hybrids of loyalist and traitor gene-seed).
Skol Vikings, let's win this game, Skol Vikings, honor your name, Go get that first down, Then get a touchdown. Rock 'em . . .Sock em Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
When I first read the Soul Drinkers novels, I thought they were probably a splinter chapter of loyalist Night Lords who covered up their past in order to stay in the Imperium. I figured that because the chapter's fighting doctrine involves ship-to-ship shock assaults, rapid deployment, demoralization, terror, and close/melee combat similar to the Night Lords focus on fast attack and psych warfare.
At the Time of the War of the Beasts, they were DEFINATELY Sons of Dorn. If they were not it would have been found out during the reformation of the Imperial Fist. Now in the thousands of years after that....well I personally think they were up until the civil war. And the Soul Drinkers (younger ones that left) are likely still Imperial fists. The rest, the ones who continued the way they did in the story....well anything could be. Even the severe mutations. Remember is was a NORMAL Apothecary that fixed the mutations to the geneseed, so one....how did he remarkable develop the knowledge to do that without any serious help when far more knowledgable had failed in history. Second, how could he do it....well a different geneseed stock could do it. Creating a Chimeric geneseed, part dorn....part whatever they used, or just wholesale replaced. But all these weird traitor geneseed theories from their origin is pure garbage.
5:42 The lost legions would explain why they could not identify wich Primarch was their ancestor - the information about those had been lost entirely. The Soul Spear might have made his way into Rogal Dorns possesion as part of the wipe of the other two legions, similar to the warriors of those legions. But the Alpha Legion would also explain why it was hard to identify - why would their secrecy stop at their gene seed?
My guess is that the 2 forgotten legions were each integrated into the Fists and Ultramarines, so they end up becoming "adopted" sons. So when the Soul Drinkers think of Rogal Dorn as their father it is like an adopted son thinking of their father that raised them even if they aren't entirely aware of all the information regarding their actual father since basically no one in the imperium does.
a more important question, what happened to the spear and was the mechanicus punished for stealing property that belongs rightfully to the imperial fists?
There is a lot of information about Sarpedon in the book HellForged such as the fact that he has mutated into something resembling a spider. In HellForged Sarpedon is the leader of the Soul Drinkers Chapter and altho he is the most mutated, the majority of his Chapter don't look like humans anymore so will go with the mutation answer. The Souldrinkers were also the first to encounter the Necrons and survive... The Adeptus Mechanicus were only second and arrived in really bad timing, in fact its because of the arrival of the Adeptus Mechanicus fleet that the Soul Drinkers were able to escape at all in the first encounter.
Are the Soul Drinkers larger than other Astardes? Because the Alpha Legion Astardes are the largest next to the Salamanders. I believe that the ALPHA Marines are about 8.5-9 feet tall. Being as they were all the same height as their primarchs and their primarchs were shorter than their brothers.....no tall guy? No Alpha.
My Theory is that they ARE sons of Dorn. Well most of them. There have been multiple instances of items and personnel relating to their chaplains disappearing and reappearing under mysterious circumstances. My belief is that Daenyathos was infact an Alpha Legion infiltrator who succeeded in secretly gaining control of the soul of the chapter. Daenyathos specifically needed blood of a son of Dorn to open the warp gate on the Phalanx. What better way to both gain access to the Phalanx unnoticed than as a honorable brother of a second founding successor.
There's fluff on chimeric/hybrid gene-seed, and apparently at least one Chapter (Minotaurs) was made with chimeric gene-seed during the 21st founding, which was a founding focused on eliminating gene-seed flaws. So it seems likely.
what would be interesting to understand, since the two lost legion could have been intermixed with at least Ultramarines and Imperial fist, is how in the long term their geneseed got mixed up with those proper of the two remaining primarchs. Since not even Dorn and Robute remember and since Malcador is long dead, who was there remaining to avoid geneseed intermixing?
I lean to the last hypothesis: If the Soul Drinker were indeed sons of one of the two lost primarchs, how would an geneseed analysis possibly recognize them as son of Dorn? the fact that not even Dorn or Gulliman had memories of these legions means that probably any geneticist coming up to these "unknown"geneseed would not be able to relate them to any of the known primarchs (and I guess inquisition keep an eye open for anything coming from traitor's genepool)
If you see a shiny weapon on some alien planet...for the emperor's sake, leave it there! For the best of the imperium and for the best of your chapter.
Their mannerisms and style of combat do suggest a link, the colors would be a little too obvious but the most telling is the SD mentioned to have an over active omephagia gland, Flavius Alkanex of the III had something similar occur with his.
Way late to the video, but I think the gene seed of the soul drinkers was so polluted by chaos that it was not recognized as any primarch. I mean in one single group a guy grew spiders legs, another was growing a whole second face, and one became a gelatinous freak that injury simply sealed up as soon as it was made.
i say sons of dorn and as for mutations and unable to learn what primarch the gene seed is from blame the warp and from what i read they had a lot of influence them
The fact that Commander Gethsemar of the Angels Sanguine clearly stated "I cannot say who is [your primarch]. The Sanguinary Priests have yet to conclude their discourse on the matter." To me indicates that it is actually fairly unlikely that the Soul Drinkers are the gene-kin of any of the loyalist primarchs. If they were it should be a fairly straight forward matter to place them either because like the gene-seed of the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and White Scars the gene seed is very stable and easy to identify or because those that are not such as the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders there are very common and easily identifiable gene flaws. The fact that the gene-seed of the Soul Drinkers fits into neither of these camps really only leaves the Raven Guard as a potential successor legion if they originate from any of the loyalist legions. That said I think of the options laid out here I'd say the most likely origins would be either the Alpha Legion or the 2nd or 11th legions. The Alpha Legion because of the possible connection to the pale spear, the mentality that the Soul Drinkers have of being loyal to the Emperor but not necessarily the wider Imperium, and the fact that their gene-flaw of having an above average ability to absorb the memories of their enemies all play well and would seem fitting for the Alpha Legion. Of course they could also fit with the 2nd and 11th but we'd have no way of knowing that. I do think that it's very likely that the remnants of the 2nd and 11th legions were absorbed into the Iron Fists and Ultramarines with each of them taking one of the lost legions. I'd say that if it comes to light that other Imperial Fist successor chapters have a similar gene-flaw and combat specialization then it becomes far more likely that they are either from the 2nd or 11th but if they remain as a one off then the Alpha Legion is a more likely Origin.
Maury:
“Rogal Dorn...you are *NOT* the gene-father!”
Rogal Dorn admitted as much backstage claiming how the momma was a hoe and was hooking up wit all his friends when he was defending the palace!
Rogal's response: Yey.
@@MrKevmomoney hooking up with his brothers**
"That is true" -Rogal "not the father" Dorn
Primarchs need to remember to write their names on their toys.
@Pedro Kantor Remember that the bureacracy in the Imperium maybe so large that it's getting "lost", you know the whole need to know basis kind of thing
Maybe they should look on the bottoms of their feet.
@Pedro Kantor - I just made a post about this. I too find it silly. Even if "records were lost" as the poorly thought out excuse always is... each astartes would have their heritage nailed into them even as a neophyte as this is a massive badge of honor to the astartes and something they would not forget. The ONLY way they could truly lose this knowledge was if records were lost AND all surviving members had died.
@Pedro Kantor mutation , disinformation, classified stuff and chimera over 10k years though
"Property of the Emperor's Greatest, Bestest, Favorite Most Beloved Son, L...O...R...G...A...R... Well, that's a funny way to spell Sanguinius!"
And here everyone we have another prime example of the Inquisitio making everything worse. Seriously, the Soul Drinkers had every right to reclaim _THEIR_ property, Treaty of Olympus be damned!
Just have them be banned from receiving any support nor gear from the Adeptus Mechanicus. Odds are this would likely doom most legions anyways.
@@ValdVincent lol all they have to do is “find” their relic and “requisition” some spare armor and munitions manufactorum
How in the world they’re the Imperium’s best defense against Chaos, I’ll never know
I sometimes question why you upload so early. Then i question why I'm awake to see it. Then I quit conplaining and just enjoy a good theory.
Bolt thrower by day, 40k theories by night
Seth Clark different time zones mate 😁
Considering the Mechanicus stole the relic, I would say the Soul Drinkers were justified in wiping them out to retrieve said relic. Damn, 40k justice is brutal.
Definitely a lesson on not taking people's stuff to be learned there.
I love how the Blood Angels successor guy basically just walks in and makes it an episode of Maury. "It turns out, Dorn is NOT the father."
(My bet is on Fulgrim, just look at the armour)
We do now have the Sons of Phoenix.
I would highly doubt it, Fulgrim's geneseed was renowned for its purity and stability, funny enough, considering how Fulgrim turned out as a daemon primarch.
@@FatalShadow13 tbh fall of fulgrim was a tragedy and wouldnt have happened if he didnt pick the posessed sword. Even the pure clone of Fulgrim who wasnt corrupted by fulgrim was disgusted by the demon fulgrim wven tho they shared lots of memories
@@FatalShadow13 yea
Angron = the saddest case
Fulgrim = in many ways the greatest loss
Magnus = the.... i don't know... never felt really sad for him. I would say that is pretty meh... i guess magnus was the most stupid
Horus = the most tragic
Perturabo = the one that should have been prevented before Horus fell
Lorgar = ... i am not giving lorgar a positive spin... fuck that guy.
Mortarion = the most paradoxical
@@And-ur6ol Magnus would probably be second tragic on this due to the events of
1. The Burning of Prospero because of Horus (Which was a Traitor by now) Said to Leman Russ that Big E changed orders and wanted Magnus dead than be captured and taken into Terra, causing them to join Chaos in thr First Place
2. Tzeench just manipulated them to make Magnus and the TS join Chaos as he (apparently idk) used the Flesh Change as a Bargaining Chip
3. Ahriman wanted to stop the flesh change, causing the Rubric of Ahriman to happen and turning nearly every non-psyker TS to Dust
The soul drinker series was one of my all time favourite books. I want to believe that they come from a lost primarch. They were erased from imperial history for some unknown transgression. Their children were erased from imperial records for their 'sin' of standing up for what is right. All that's left of them is a tiny plaque somewhere admitting they existed and they were righteous.
Same. They were the first chapter that I had the pleasure of reading about.
Hey point me in the right direction I just got into 40k and LOVE everything dealing with the Soul Drinkers. Where do I start with their specific lore.
Thousand Sons, considering what happened to them later in the story.
I'd say Alpha Legion works well with story too.
Especially due to the loyalty to Emperor but not Imperium that fits the idea of Omegon and his Alpha Legion being loyalists
What happened?
Jarrel Doomis betrayed by everyone.
@@jarreldoomis3502 hes probably referring to the rapid degeneration of their genetic structure, the thousand sons suffered from a flaw called "The fleshchange" which caused rapid mutation and degeneration of their genetic and physical forms. The souldrinkers also suffered from rapid mutation.
@Pedro Kantor
True, It's definitely a theory more than proved by evidence.
Given the Inquisition's actions though, loyalty to the Emperor and best interest of Imperium aren't that commonly matched.
I think it would be cool for them to be loyalists disguising their broader operations against Chaos by attacking outposts etc in a way that imperial forces react to block worse attacks by other Chaos forces.
Kill thousands to save billions down the line sort of idea..
Everyone can debate as much as they want about the Soul Drinkers, but let be known that Sarpedon has possibly the most unique model for a chapter master.
spideredon*
Did he have an official model? Sounds awesome!
@@davidh7177 Yes for a limited time, I recommend looking it up.
@@alanmerino9440 I looked it up and seen a purple coloured(unpainted obviously) rubber looking thing is that it? It looked great even as a big purple guy! Haha
Spiderman approves.
Last time I was this early Lorgar still called Emps a god.
OtakuMage last time I was this early ,I found Horus alone .
As soon as I heard Roboutte pronounced "Rowbooty" I knew it was Alfabusa.
Wolf Lord Rho Bootie
It is Row Boot ghoul Eh man
Rowboat Girly Man, only slightly less memey than Lemon Rust.
Nurgle’s gifts run rampant but the Inquisition marches on.
Thanks, Dino-priest. My own father’s in the hospital and this is what I needed. Stay safe.
You too, and hopefully your father will get well soon.
"That's a cool stick in the middle of nowhere" - Dorn
I am inclined to think that one of the lost legions is the most likely source.
Iconography can be chosen to mask an origin, so the blood angel link is spurious at best. The only true indicator of heritage is the genetics. They have only one distinguishable trait and it is a trait that none of the other legions display, thus the most likely result is that they stem from a different genetic line. I imagine that upon deciding to form the second founding, the Imperial Fists whom originated from a lost primach were separated into a new legion. An easy and efficient way to hide them since no marine would suddenly start showing different genetic flaws or significant genetic deviation from their other chapter members.
The legion was said to be formed from active Imperial Fists, who had a distinctive and unique fighting style compared to the others. While many legions had such divisions in their ranks most distinct combat styles were separated legion to legion rather than internally. Furthermore, if the founding members had known of a different origin (had they been loyalist alpha legion for instance) there would have been rumors or hints of it in their own chapters histories. The chapter were utterly convinced they were Fists, so if they have a different genetic makeup then surely the original founding members were unaware of it.
As for the pale spear, what if Dorn was not lying? What if he DID obtain it during the Great Crusade? What if it had belonged to one of his lost brothers and was put in his possession after their execution/assassination? It would take no effort what so ever for Malchador to arrange for the Marines from a lost legion to be separated into their own Chapter and persuade Dorn to gift them the weapon of their Primach. During their time as Imperial Fists they had proven their loyalty to the emperor, and there was no evidence of them having even the slightest idea of their past so it would be safe to form them into a chapter.
Have any modern chapters been known to be descendant of the Lost Legions? Or any chapters that went extinct?
How would we know? If the remains of the lost legions were absorbed into the Fists and Ultramarines and even the memories of the Primachs involved were wiped, the only ones who would know would be a very small handful in the highest levels of the imperium, fingers on one hand kinda numbers, and they probably never left any records of it. Any successor chapters that show unusual genetic heritage might be a clue, depending on how many survived whatever happened to the Lost.
Perhaps of the legion absorbed into the Fists there were only just enough to form one chapter. Whatever happened to cause the deaths of the primachs probably involved a good deal of fighting and cost the legions many marines before it ended.
Do the Ultra Marines have any successors with unusual traits that don't match any other Founding legion?
@@hinty6424 all your points are more than valid. I suppose that I meant have any documents or holovids or the like surfaced?
None I know of, but I can't claim more than a passing knowledge on the subject.
@@hinty6424 roboute would know what happened to those legions and what troops went where especially in his own legion/chapter
I absolutely love 40k theories. Not only does this channel introduce lore and other integral aspects in the video to give even the most novice of 40k readers enough info to understand the question but the questions are so... thought provoking. I honestly didn’t think of some of these theories proposed such as chalice being representative of the blood angels thus implying a possible connection. This channel is possibly my favorite in terms of 40k.
Finally, the video addressing one of the biggest questions I've had about 40K lore. Thanks Remleiz.
Alpha Legion and the lost primarchs were two of my suspects. The other was the Night Lords. Konrad Curze had such a powerful cannibalism/memory echo trait he was educated by it while growing up feral in the darkness of his urban/mining planet; Sarpedon's use of psychic terror; the quick-strike doctrines; and the chapter's hatred of criminal corruption all lean to a loyalist Night Lord chapter. But how would they have gotten into Rogal Dorn's graces and into Imperial records as an Imperial Fist chapter, especially after Curze nearly pummeled his brother Dorn to death before the Heresy?
I say Emperor's Children.
Because purple.
@@mattaffenit9898 purple was seen as royalty back then, you not wrong with that
@@SgawCules
Specifically Phoenician purple, yes.
Funny coincidence with snekkboi's epithet.
I love the Soul Drinkers SOOO much. I haven’t loved a series as much as I loved this one. Sarpedon for life! I love his ability “The Hell”
Alfabusa voicing Malcador had me in stitches, he sounds sloshed!
Rogal thinks he killed me? Funny. Guilliman thought something similar.
Good thing they put up the books that prove that point eh?
Quiet. You're dead.
@@leeboy26 And yet I still speak! Liar!
Gwiber WurmChild pal, Lee was talking about Alpharius. He shouldn’t speak because Dorn INDEED killed him. And such a good kill it was.
@@ricardodemarco3486 Keep believe that if it makes you happy. Alpharius always lives.
last time i was this early the Thunderwarriors were still busy unifying Terra
@Anirban Chakrabarti read outcast dead and dreams of unity lies and deceit truth will always be revealed
Ahhh, souldrinkers, my fav chapter. Smart enough to realize the Imperium is shit, and also skeptical enough to tell Chaos to take a hike.
The Soul Drinkers were the first renegade chapter that i read about in the 40k universe. It was very confusing because I was still new to 40K and did not understand this dynamic until I did more research into the 40k. The chapter lore was very enlightening to say the least.
Malcador the Sigillite removed the memories of the lost Legions from Dorn's mind but in other sources Mortarion simply says they were ordered not to talk about them. Seems to me if they were sent into the other Legions then there would be many chapters from their stock.
Both are true. When Malcador tells Dorn to remember the lost Primarchs and tell him their names, he realises that he actually doesn't know. Ordering everyone not to talk about them just makes it less likely that they'll realise their memories of them have been tampered with.
I like the idea of the second or 11th legion being "pirates" and therefore the soul drinkers could be descended from one of them and that's why they were so good with boarding actions and void combat. Just a cool thought. Soul Drinkers are one of my favorite chapters. First Warhammer 40k books I read were in the Soul Drinkers Omnibus.
Good to see you and Alfa are on good terms still. I know the memes got over the top from your guest apperences on TTS
A very extremely awesome video as always 40k Theories.
I very much like this video, and the idea of them being 20th Legion successors! Thanks!
Edit: I also got to hear the quote you mentioned about Rogal losing his memory of his lost brothers!
Love the old Chaos Gate game music ❤
I have always enjoyed the idea of these "renegade" or "disillusioned" chapters being descendants of the Traitor legions. Lets face it, the Loyalists are little... blinded, by their devotion.. To see the idiocy of the Imperium at large.
Thanks fer bringing out a video so early, help get me through work! C:
You literally have a Sanguinary Priest giving testimony on the Soul Drinkers' geneseed. They would recognize their own before any other primarch's. I think the Blood Angels are conclusively ruled out.
Plot Twist
They are all *ALPHARIUS*
Hail Omeagon
All space marine chapters are actually alpha legion they just don't know it yet.
Sons of the Phoenix: Dornian or Fulgrimian heritage?
Fulgrim
Their Emperor's Children.
You legend . Been a big s.d fan and had very little infootrr than novel works . This is epic dude 😎 legend 🤟
I like the Alpha Legion Loyalists idea, especially given the link with Pale / Soul Spear.
The idea that one or more helped Dorn against Alpharius and so he protected the Loyalists by given them the Spear and his name during the 2nd Founding is cool.
It also plays well into the ultimate storyline of Emperor loyalty but turning on the Imperium that fits the potential of Omegon and elememts of the Alpha Legion remaining loyal
I like the theory that rogal dorn is the gene-father. But the gene sead is so corrupt by chaos that it is no longer can be detected
I think the lost legion theory is the most likely, with the Alpha Legion successors as the second most likely.
I don’t think Blood Angels are a likely primogenitor. If they were, I think the Angels Sanguine have been able to recognise the gene seed as Sanguinius’.
16:39 Fuck, now I can't help but hear Malcador saying "who knows Ian, maybe this is my next movie?"
I have always wondered if the Soul Drinkers and White Templars, two chapters with unknown foundings falsely believed to have been of the Fists and Ultramarines respectfully, are remnants of the two missing Legions. We know from various Heresy novels that the Fists and Ultramarines did indeed take in such remnants.
Guy in the thumbnail is like: "Yes, I drink souls, how could you tell?"
tbh, I always thought the Soul Drinkers were from the gene-stock of either the Blood Angels (it might just be the name) or the Emperor's Children (it's that colour scheme), but the idea that they might be from the 2nd or 11th legions, well, that's awesome. I've been wanting more info on those legions since I started the hobby back in '93.
Dwarficus C. Maximus no evidence of BA Black Rage, and a colour is just a colour.
@@Mugdorna yes, which is why I included in the brackets why I thought they were from those legions, as I was clearly wrong, but then I haven't thought about the Soul Drinkers since 4th edition. Also, in 40k a colour is not just a colour, ask any Ork player which colour is da fasta colour.
@@Dwarficus Haha! Good one 😂
I personally think they are loyalist Emperor’s Children. Firstly, PURPLE.
Secondly their attitude towards battle. Fulgrim, despite his misgivings in terms of being overly fond of revelry always reached for a more perfected form of war. This can be equated you how the Soul Drinkers rationalized Sarpedon’s spider mutations when he killed Gorgoleon, IE a more perfected way of waging war.
Thirdly their overall seemingly unprompted descent into mutation after Sarpedon slew Gorgoleon (admittedly my weakest point) If I recall this was prior to making a Space Hulk into the chapter’s fortress monastery and cannot be attributed to warp corruption from the hulk. EC geneseed was remarkably unstable, and only Fulgrim’s return halted the gene degradation of his sons. This would also fit into the point about how Soul Drinker gene stock is not as stable as Dorn. So I suppose the trauma and stress of the situation caused this issue to reignite.
The original tainted EC gene-seed stock resulted in constant tumor development and organ failure, which are exceptionally mundane mutations when it comes to anything Chaos can inflict upon a body. The cause of Sarpedon's dramatic mutation is very likely Tzeenchian in nature, as he and his men came into contact with a mutant who claimed to worship the Emperor as an "Architect of Fate" some time around their operation to reclaim the Soulspear. This mutant is later revealed to have been receiving visions from the Daemon Prince Abraxes, and thus a clear line of influence can be drawn to unwitting (and unwilling) Chaotic corruption.
"Alpha legion loyalists" let that sink in.
They answered the the Last wall protocol that makes them Son's of Dorn.
"He who stands with me shall be my brother"
I like my theory - blood angels guy mixed up test results with suspected alpha legion infiltrators.
Rewatching this and the way malcador says it makes it sound like the 2 lost primarchs were lost after already being united with their legions. One has to be the Minators and that is what the highlords use to make them do whatever they want.
The Book of the Astronomican must've been written by Jaq Draco! xD
4:16 what a moustache!
As the Soul Drinkers met their end, they did so able to say one of the rarest things in the whole of the 40K universe: I Die Free!
The Soulspear's blades are described as caged singularities, if I remember correctly, the Pale Spear turned whatever it touched to dust. That said I find it hard to believe they are the same.
Like the purple and Gold but The Soul Drinkers are not Imperial Fists? Or are they?
Great video, much thanks.
I am painting all my Primaris Marines as Soul Drinkers. I believe there is a bit of lore about Guilliman re-establishing the Chapter?
Indeed there exists a Primaris version of the chapter. There's even a novella about them.
If the Ultramarines actually had non-Ultra troops the mandatory geneseed tithe would have detected it immediately during purity tests. GW may not have properly thought this through, however.
I didn't expect Malcador the Sigilite to sound so much like Waamudes.
8:10 "Bad book, BAD!"
I'm a simple man; I see a Remleiz video, I upvote.
Glad you covered this theory.
Found it cheers 🍻👍😀
I like when I see ads on channels like this one...hope you're making something
3:30 AM, do i really need to watch this?
My first book was the soul drinkers omnibus. I was hooked forever. It was destiny. I knew nothing about warhammer. I saw the book and picked it up on a whim. It’s took over my life;never leaves my mind.
Dorn's boys or not, it doesn't matter. In the end, they're loyal as fuck and that's all that matters.
(Aside from Daenyathos, naturally :P)
@@40KTheories Except that guy
Although the lost legions is an interesting idea I think the Alpha Legion theory works, as almost every Traitor Legion had Loyalist Marines who Remained Loyal, and Survived the Hersey. Although their fates have never been fully explored, we do know some of them ended up as the Founders of the Grey Knights', so it is possible some of their numbers ended up being assigned to certain loyalist legions, ie The Fists and Ultra Marines, it might also be why the cursed founding went so badly.
Tragic, those walking tin cans are such perverts!
(In walks a *Blood Raven* battle brother): _What?_
Hey buddy have anything to say
If the warriors from the lost legions we’re integrated into the Imperial Fists that could explain some of Rogan Dorn’s stubbornness during the Iron Cage battle that ended with a portion of the Legion being destroyed. Perhaps he stayed there to use the Iron Warriors to cull those not of his direct blood? And afterwards spun them off into their own Chapter with them being none the wiser as to their origins? That way he kept the Imperial Fists “pure” without actually doing any of the dirty work himself?
Great video and options!
It is not the 9th.
They are not offshoots of Vulkan.
It is possible that they are of the 5th.
I REALLY like the 20th angle!
9:37 The table that remind you that all your favorite legions have a high risk of mutation ...
... hope no inquisitor will read that.
Fun fact about the Pale Spear, from Alpharius' Primarchs novel: Omegon supposedly found it on a barren, empty planet after the Primarchs were scattered. Alpharius says the account is a lie, but it's the Alpha Legion, so who knows if it really is. But it sounds oddly similar to Dorn discovering the Soulspear, right?
And unrelated, but I tend to just skip over any "lost Legion descendant" claims about official Chapters, since GW apparently tell their authors not to do that, ever. If there's ever an official reveal about any Chapter with unknown gene-seed, it will be one of the eighteen known Legions, likely a loyalist (although they have hinted at Chapters like Minotaurs and Carcharodons being hybrids of loyalist and traitor gene-seed).
Purple and gold, little full of themselves, likes drinking souls. I think we all know where this is going.
Skol Vikings, let's win this game,
Skol Vikings, honor your name,
Go get that first down,
Then get a touchdown.
Rock 'em . . .Sock em
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
When I first read the Soul Drinkers novels, I thought they were probably a splinter chapter of loyalist Night Lords who covered up their past in order to stay in the Imperium. I figured that because the chapter's fighting doctrine involves ship-to-ship shock assaults, rapid deployment, demoralization, terror, and close/melee combat similar to the Night Lords focus on fast attack and psych warfare.
You thought it was Rogal Dorn. But it was me! DIO!
Purple + gold color scheme is majestic.
At the Time of the War of the Beasts, they were DEFINATELY Sons of Dorn. If they were not it would have been found out during the reformation of the Imperial Fist. Now in the thousands of years after that....well I personally think they were up until the civil war. And the Soul Drinkers (younger ones that left) are likely still Imperial fists. The rest, the ones who continued the way they did in the story....well anything could be. Even the severe mutations. Remember is was a NORMAL Apothecary that fixed the mutations to the geneseed, so one....how did he remarkable develop the knowledge to do that without any serious help when far more knowledgable had failed in history. Second, how could he do it....well a different geneseed stock could do it. Creating a Chimeric geneseed, part dorn....part whatever they used, or just wholesale replaced. But all these weird traitor geneseed theories from their origin is pure garbage.
5:42 The lost legions would explain why they could not identify wich Primarch was their ancestor - the information about those had been lost entirely.
The Soul Spear might have made his way into Rogal Dorns possesion as part of the wipe of the other two legions, similar to the warriors of those legions.
But the Alpha Legion would also explain why it was hard to identify - why would their secrecy stop at their gene seed?
My guess is that the 2 forgotten legions were each integrated into the Fists and Ultramarines, so they end up becoming "adopted" sons. So when the Soul Drinkers think of Rogal Dorn as their father it is like an adopted son thinking of their father that raised them even if they aren't entirely aware of all the information regarding their actual father since basically no one in the imperium does.
I wish the 2 lost legions would be brought back cause I want to see some chapters in their colors and I want to know what genetic traits they have.
2:31 They should have asked for the Blood Raven's help. Wait... The Blood Ravens are born much more later thro...
a more important question, what happened to the spear and was the mechanicus punished for stealing property that belongs rightfully to the imperial fists?
There is a lot of information about Sarpedon in the book HellForged such as the fact that he has mutated into something resembling a spider. In HellForged Sarpedon is the leader of the Soul Drinkers Chapter and altho he is the most mutated, the majority of his Chapter don't look like humans anymore so will go with the mutation answer.
The Souldrinkers were also the first to encounter the Necrons and survive... The Adeptus Mechanicus were only second and arrived in really bad timing, in fact its because of the arrival of the Adeptus Mechanicus fleet that the Soul Drinkers were able to escape at all in the first encounter.
Sounds like they may have been Alpha legion especially with that mutation being useful for espionage
My theory is they're Iron warriors. They can pass for sons of Dorn but can be incorporated without issues.
Are the Soul Drinkers larger than other Astardes?
Because the Alpha Legion Astardes are the largest next to the Salamanders. I believe that the ALPHA Marines are about 8.5-9 feet tall. Being as they were all the same height as their primarchs and their primarchs were shorter than their brothers.....no tall guy?
No Alpha.
"Rogal Dorn. You are *not* the father!"
I wouldn't put it past Alpha Legion to create a plot to pretend to be an Iron Fist successor chapter then forget that it was a plot.
Soul Drinkers novels got me into Warhammer 40k
Malcador needs some glue to hold his dentures, they keep slipping and slur his speech.
Ay, it's my favorite chapter
My Theory is that they ARE sons of Dorn. Well most of them. There have been multiple instances of items and personnel relating to their chaplains disappearing and reappearing under mysterious circumstances. My belief is that Daenyathos was infact an Alpha Legion infiltrator who succeeded in secretly gaining control of the soul of the chapter. Daenyathos specifically needed blood of a son of Dorn to open the warp gate on the Phalanx. What better way to both gain access to the Phalanx unnoticed than as a honorable brother of a second founding successor.
Has there ever been any fluff where two gene seeds were combined to try and eliminate a flaw?
There's fluff on chimeric/hybrid gene-seed, and apparently at least one Chapter (Minotaurs) was made with chimeric gene-seed during the 21st founding, which was a founding focused on eliminating gene-seed flaws. So it seems likely.
@@nicholassinnett2958 oh thanks, 1year later lol
That is why the ultramarines don’t have the same fan love than other legions
what would be interesting to understand, since the two lost legion could have been intermixed with at least Ultramarines and Imperial fist, is how in the long term their geneseed got mixed up with those proper of the two remaining primarchs. Since not even Dorn and Robute remember and since Malcador is long dead, who was there remaining to avoid geneseed intermixing?
I lean to the last hypothesis: If the Soul Drinker were indeed sons of one of the two lost primarchs, how would an geneseed analysis possibly recognize them as son of Dorn? the fact that not even Dorn or Gulliman had memories of these legions means that probably any geneticist coming up to these "unknown"geneseed would not be able to relate them to any of the known primarchs (and I guess inquisition keep an eye open for anything coming from traitor's genepool)
If you see a shiny weapon on some alien planet...for the emperor's sake, leave it there! For the best of the imperium and for the best of your chapter.
Soul Drinkers crimson and gold armour reminds me of Emperor's Children.
Where is the art from 4:12 from please
I'm going to say the Emperor's Children.
Their mannerisms and style of combat do suggest a link, the colors would be a little too obvious but the most telling is the SD mentioned to have an over active omephagia gland, Flavius Alkanex of the III had something similar occur with his.
Perterabo.
They specialize in Space Vessel Breaching and Seige.
This would make some more sense.
Way late to the video, but I think the gene seed of the soul drinkers was so polluted by chaos that it was not recognized as any primarch. I mean in one single group a guy grew spiders legs, another was growing a whole second face, and one became a gelatinous freak that injury simply sealed up as soon as it was made.
i say sons of dorn and as for mutations and unable to learn what primarch the gene seed is from blame the warp and from what i read they had a lot of influence them
The fact that Commander Gethsemar of the Angels Sanguine clearly stated "I cannot say who is [your primarch]. The Sanguinary Priests have yet to conclude their discourse on the matter." To me indicates that it is actually fairly unlikely that the Soul Drinkers are the gene-kin of any of the loyalist primarchs. If they were it should be a fairly straight forward matter to place them either because like the gene-seed of the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and White Scars the gene seed is very stable and easy to identify or because those that are not such as the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders there are very common and easily identifiable gene flaws. The fact that the gene-seed of the Soul Drinkers fits into neither of these camps really only leaves the Raven Guard as a potential successor legion if they originate from any of the loyalist legions.
That said I think of the options laid out here I'd say the most likely origins would be either the Alpha Legion or the 2nd or 11th legions. The Alpha Legion because of the possible connection to the pale spear, the mentality that the Soul Drinkers have of being loyal to the Emperor but not necessarily the wider Imperium, and the fact that their gene-flaw of having an above average ability to absorb the memories of their enemies all play well and would seem fitting for the Alpha Legion. Of course they could also fit with the 2nd and 11th but we'd have no way of knowing that. I do think that it's very likely that the remnants of the 2nd and 11th legions were absorbed into the Iron Fists and Ultramarines with each of them taking one of the lost legions. I'd say that if it comes to light that other Imperial Fist successor chapters have a similar gene-flaw and combat specialization then it becomes far more likely that they are either from the 2nd or 11th but if they remain as a one off then the Alpha Legion is a more likely Origin.