I’ve admired the goth æsthetic since I was a teen in the 1980’s. It’s one of the few subcultures that hasn’t changed much & has stayed true to its core values.
Intresting short film. And I recognize Parma ham. But like someone else said: Goth is so much more than sexuality, gender and so on. But my experience is that we might be more tolerant as a group just because of what we are. And lots of persons in the subculture are very creative.
I'm goth but I didn't feel any strong connection to the message in this video. I'd say they're not speaking for the whole community, mostly their own self-expression and inspiration as it relates to goth. So from that perspective, it was cool to hear their perspective as individuals. My two cents.
This video made it sound like there are a lot of people who use the goth subculture to cross dress (whether they are transvestites or trans gender) to avoid the amount of criticism they might have otherwise gotten if they cross dressed in mainstream clothes. It made me wonder if these people actually like goth or are just using it as a safe excuse. I didn't recognize this facet of goth at all, I know the subculture has always been accepting of androgyny but I've never seen or heard about many outright full blown cross dressers. I am also reminded of subtle parallels with cross dressers, sissies and age players using the (gothic) lolita subculture as an excuse whilst 95% of the (gothic) lolita community doesn't want them at our meet ups (keep your kink at home is the mantra), doesn't want them in our community and does't want them to associate with and prey on (and they often do) our younger members. They bring drama to the community, make it so some of our younger members aren't allowed to attend meet ups anymore by their parents (which is totally understandable, but still sad) and give the community a bad name. I understand the goth subculture is more accepting of kink so it's not the same, but I couldn't help myself from thinking there are some similarities there. Nearly every local com seems to have one horror story of a crossdresser/sissy/age player trying to get into the com and breaking the rules and sometimes the law. In contrast having a brolita (a male who wears lolita clothes) in the com who behaves as they should seems rare.
yes yes yes. goth is so versatile and flexible and can blend into any other way of styling oneself. It’s fascinating because no matter where you are, there exists a part of the population that will be accepting of you.
Considering the vast majority of people in this video were strictly talking about how the scene made them feel and their experiences in it, I didn't get butt hurt that it wasn't a historical break down of the whole thing. I think the title was misleading, which probably lended itself to people's complaints, but they were all speaking their truths. Definitely reminded me of a lot of the older goths I knew.
I’m glad some subcultures are still going. In the internet age, it seems few fashion-based subcultures are arising. Now it’s mostly politics or opinion groups.
OK...so they're only speaking for the "queers" in the community, which is fine, but that doesn't speak for the whole community. Gender-bending is common within the scene, but that's usually for show. You're free to be yourself, but the basis of the scene is the music, and this video completely missed that.
I can't say I agree with saying the Goth scene is inclusive. There is and always will be elitism and gatekeeping. Having said that, there are people in the scene who are very open and are happy to welcome newcomers. It's a beautiful scene that attracts those who never wanted to conform to what society deems acceptable. This of course leads to being marginalized which eventually leads to seeking out others who are also the same way inclined, as is the case with Goths or any other subculture. This is what I love about the Goth subculture. We should all feel safe and accepted in our scene. Not being "Goth" enough is just elitist and wrong. I applaud Parma.ham and his creativity. He really is redefining what it means to be Goth in the 21st century.
I understand someone wanting to be unique by thinking and looking outside the boxes that society places. I think we all have some sort of contrarian tendencies, and Goth has been around for decades as one outlet. However, I wonder in the age of communication and technology, where the internet has connected peoples of similar groups and interests, whether Goth has morph into just an overt gateway for unrestrained hedonism. The ability to look different and be accepted is one thing that I applaud. However, when there are no rules or expectations, history has taught us that something or someone does in fact fill or take advantage of this void. Unfortunately, it can result in a scenario where no rules mean no violations - and no accountability. Interesting film.
That was a pretty decent representation of the true essence (or one angle) of this subculture via the mouths of those that are authentically living it.
"What does it mean to be goth-to be an outsider, to live both on the margins and in the midst of society?" Liking the music, as well as sacking Rome. Question answered.
Goth is beyond gender ...beyond belonging...beyond looks....beyond all everything stated in this video...taking spects of the goth subculture such as painted nails and make up for either sexes and using it as a way to make things easier for yourself to be accepted by others, just by stating that its goth so its fine is very disrespectful and sad indeed. Just an opinion , not trying to upset anyone. But being considerate towards others is what makes us whole. This video left sadness in my soul
Nailed it. Aside from the presentation the writing seems to make it like it's not about really the music and the art, but more about gender rhetoric and sexual identity.
I wouldn't say queerness & gender-fluidity etc are *central* to goth as such. I know many, many goths who don't as the older woman said in the film "mix up your gender", but I do know a LOT of goths who do, and who are LGBTQ or just like to play with gender & fashion: guys wearing skirts & all that kind of thing. It's not how I do my goth thing & it doesn't define goth except insofar as there's a lot more queer folks doing their thing as goths than (say) as any other subculture I could mention, and their goth is perfectly valid.
I want his deathhawk i myself don't necessarily call myself a goth because i dress as a girly one day then goth next then tomboy ect..i don't just stay in one fashion category i don't label myself to be put in a box i like to experiment and expand lol but I do always usually wear black i don't wear makeup im on the natural side i love metal and rock and i just love the alternative side and anything dark and spooky anyway have a great day whoever reads this :)
none of your buisness you're just being yourself :) which is super awesome! Thanks for the positivity. I hope you have a great day too and continue to stay true(: AND YES!!! I FELL IN LOVE WITH HIS DEATHHAWK TOO!
Well, there is no shame in not being goth… it's a music based subculture, which unfortunately never comes through in these documentaries as they focus way too much on "life style", "state of mind" and other nonsense. If you don't like at least some gothic rock or goth/post-punk related music, then you are hardly "goth". But in the end, labels are just there to make it easier for people to find what they like and connect with people with similar interests. There is nothing lost if you don't qualify for the label or if you choose not to identify with it in the first place. If you think you can only dress "dark", like spooky things and listen to non-mainstream radio friendly music when you have some kind of gothic seal of trueness approval then you are wrong. Goth is a specific music based subculture. It doesn't have a monopoly on dark, gloomy things. You can like dark stuff without being involved with the goth scene. And at this point, in the year of 2018, where everything that once was a visual signifier for some subculture (may it be hippies, rockers, punks or metalheads or hip hoppers) has become part of normal, mundane daily wear it's no longer a matter if you get yourself a deathhawk. Or paint you nails black…
+Asteria To be fair most normies don't even know goth has it's own music genre. They think it's a fashion style and lifestyle. I though so too for most of my teens (now 33). I have no trouble with the fact that there are people who say they are goth because they were goth clothes and have a goth lifestyle even though they do not listen to goth rock. I've known a few like that who listened to classical music and symphonic metal, and that to be honest sounds incredibly goth to me. I think it's a bit old and tired when people say "you're not goth until you listen to goth rock" but hey, that's just my opinion.
this is my third video on this channel and i honestly have no idea what's going on. still trying to gauge the art to documentary ratio. heavily leaning towards the former.
Yeah it pissed me off too. It's liberals pushing this shit on everyone. Like everyone should be notified 24/7 what's someones sexuality. Like I don't care what kind of a fucking pretzel one feels like, just keep it private with your lover.
I haven't really seen everything have sexuality involved. You could argue sexuality is just ingrained into our culture, as it's always been portrayed in some way, shape, or form throughout Western existence.. But if you look at goth, it exudes the dramatic, the exhilarating, the sexual, the taboo. The sexual nature of the Gothic deals more so with lust and desire. Look at Gothic literature and you will see such themes all over the place. The Goth culture naturally fits the subversion of expectation, including how sexuality is portrayed. We're not perverted people, mind. We just tend to be more "overt" when it comes to expression.
If it doesn't involve the MUSIC which is our roots then your version of GOTH is non-existent We can have looks and thats fine and all but what really makes a person Goth is their taste in the MUSIC .
didnt know goth was all about gender. almost seems like it has nothing to do with the fascination of things that are dark and morbid and just about gender bending
Goth isn't about gender. This video misrepresented the goth subculture imo, made it sound like those that like to cross dress or are transgender and like to dress as their target gender use the goth subculture to be able to do these things and avoid the amount of criticism they would have otherwise gotten if they cross dressed in mainstream fashion. It makes me wonder, do these people actually like goth (fashion and music)? Or are they just using it as a convenient excuse, because cross dressing can easily be explained away by saying "it's goth, you wouldn't understand". I'm 33 and never saw the supposed part of goth that this video illustrates. Goth has always been pretty tolerant to androgyny but I've never seen many cross dressers and trans in the community. Makes me wonder how legit this supposed part actually is.
Plain Popcorn i found it quite strange that they never even bothered to explore the musical aspect, and the way the narrators spoke and how this was presented made it seem more like a propaganda piece than an informative video...
I like the presentation, but what's with the gender queer and sexuality narrative being driven in here ? I've been part of both the metal and goth scene since 8th grade and I'm now 27 years old. Both scenes have proven to be pretty inclusive for different sorts of people as long as your in it for the MUSIC. The political rhetoric only ruins scenes, so that shit should stay out since young people find it incredibly uncool.
I love goth, but this seemed like a pile of pretentious crap >_< 'Look at me, I'm so different and dark and ethereal and moody'... don't take yourselves so seriously.
Jesus loves you We are saved through God's grace not by our works alone because we are all sinners. Thank God sent his only son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. Repent for your sins and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. May God bless you all
This was a nice look into the fashion and attitude goths have but always remember that it's the music that is truly important in our subculture
exactly
Really? And here I always thought it was it's philosophy.
Lol
Listen to whatever the fuck you want and don't give a shit when people say that your a poser
And i wasn't trying to offend actually i was trying to encourage
I’ve admired the goth æsthetic since I was a teen in the 1980’s. It’s one of the few subcultures that hasn’t changed much & has stayed true to its core values.
i think it has totally changed and i grew up around the origins
hells ya
Intresting short film. And I recognize Parma ham. But like someone else said: Goth is so much more than sexuality, gender and so on. But my experience is that we might be more tolerant as a group just because of what we are. And lots of persons in the subculture are very creative.
I'm goth but I didn't feel any strong connection to the message in this video. I'd say they're not speaking for the whole community, mostly their own self-expression and inspiration as it relates to goth. So from that perspective, it was cool to hear their perspective as individuals. My two cents.
Mori Darkmoss wow you're beautiful
This video made it sound like there are a lot of people who use the goth subculture to cross dress (whether they are transvestites or trans gender) to avoid the amount of criticism they might have otherwise gotten if they cross dressed in mainstream clothes.
It made me wonder if these people actually like goth or are just using it as a safe excuse.
I didn't recognize this facet of goth at all, I know the subculture has always been accepting of androgyny but I've never seen or heard about many outright full blown cross dressers.
I am also reminded of subtle parallels with cross dressers, sissies and age players using the (gothic) lolita subculture as an excuse whilst 95% of the (gothic) lolita community doesn't want them at our meet ups (keep your kink at home is the mantra), doesn't want them in our community and does't want them to associate with and prey on (and they often do) our younger members.
They bring drama to the community, make it so some of our younger members aren't allowed to attend meet ups anymore by their parents (which is totally understandable, but still sad) and give the community a bad name.
I understand the goth subculture is more accepting of kink so it's not the same, but I couldn't help myself from thinking there are some similarities there.
Nearly every local com seems to have one horror story of a crossdresser/sissy/age player trying to get into the com and breaking the rules and sometimes the law.
In contrast having a brolita (a male who wears lolita clothes) in the com who behaves as they should seems rare.
yes yes yes. goth is so versatile and flexible and can blend into any other way of styling oneself. It’s fascinating because no matter where you are, there exists a part of the population that will be accepting of you.
I love how this was filmed
Considering the vast majority of people in this video were strictly talking about how the scene made them feel and their experiences in it, I didn't get butt hurt that it wasn't a historical break down of the whole thing.
I think the title was misleading, which probably lended itself to people's complaints, but they were all speaking their truths. Definitely reminded me of a lot of the older goths I knew.
I’m glad some subcultures are still going. In the internet age, it seems few fashion-based subcultures are arising. Now it’s mostly politics or opinion groups.
goth is ultimately based on music though
Goth is a music based subculture, like punk or metal would be. Gothic rock is essential to the Goth movement
Naw subcultures still exist but because of the internet, more and more people are able to be themselves so they don't need subcultures
I love the look and feel of this video
yep... very cozy
Yes its comforting
OK...so they're only speaking for the "queers" in the community, which is fine, but that doesn't speak for the whole community. Gender-bending is common within the scene, but that's usually for show. You're free to be yourself, but the basis of the scene is the music, and this video completely missed that.
I can't say I agree with saying the Goth scene is inclusive. There is and always will be elitism and gatekeeping. Having said that, there are people in the scene who are very open and are happy to welcome newcomers. It's a beautiful scene that attracts those who never wanted to conform to what society deems acceptable. This of course leads to being marginalized which eventually leads to seeking out others who are also the same way inclined, as is the case with Goths or any other subculture. This is what I love about the Goth subculture. We should all feel safe and accepted in our scene. Not being "Goth" enough is just elitist and wrong. I applaud Parma.ham and his creativity. He really is redefining what it means to be Goth in the 21st century.
I understand someone wanting to be unique by thinking and looking outside the boxes that society places. I think we all have some sort of contrarian tendencies, and Goth has been around for decades as one outlet. However, I wonder in the age of communication and technology, where the internet has connected peoples of similar groups and interests, whether Goth has morph into just an overt gateway for unrestrained hedonism. The ability to look different and be accepted is one thing that I applaud. However, when there are no rules or expectations, history has taught us that something or someone does in fact fill or take advantage of this void. Unfortunately, it can result in a scenario where no rules mean no violations - and no accountability. Interesting film.
Overland Gardener Interesting
I love the way the director choose to film this. I would like it to be longer though!!!
That was a pretty decent representation of the true essence (or one angle) of this subculture via the mouths of those that are authentically living it.
"What does it mean to be goth-to be an outsider, to live both on the margins and in the midst of society?" Liking the music, as well as sacking Rome. Question answered.
Uhhh, what about the music? You know the whole core of goth.
1 of the main pillars of goth, according to Cemetery Confessions. Not the whole thing.
uhh since when is he the authority on what goth is lol
I mean, yes extreme fashion is encouraged and the subculture definitely is a home for disenfranchised people, but that's not ALL goth is.
This!
Goth is beyond gender ...beyond belonging...beyond looks....beyond all everything stated in this video...taking spects of the goth subculture such as painted nails and make up for either sexes and using it as a way to make things easier for yourself to be accepted by others, just by stating that its goth so its fine is very disrespectful and sad indeed. Just an opinion , not trying to upset anyone. But being considerate towards others is what makes us whole. This video left sadness in my soul
Well that was dumb they didn't even talk about what goth really is aka a music subculture
Yeah, cos goth fashion isn't a thing at all.
Goth and gender huh?
Goth is so much more... As someone who has been goth for 25 years or so, I didn't like this 'look' into what the scene is.
yeah, its an interesting and very true point but very misinformative to non goths
I felt the same and could not resist to leave a comment
Nailed it.
Aside from the presentation the writing seems to make it like it's not about really the music and the art, but more about gender rhetoric and sexual identity.
I wouldn't say queerness & gender-fluidity etc are *central* to goth as such. I know many, many goths who don't as the older woman said in the film "mix up your gender", but I do know a LOT of goths who do, and who are LGBTQ or just like to play with gender & fashion: guys wearing skirts & all that kind of thing. It's not how I do my goth thing & it doesn't define goth except insofar as there's a lot more queer folks doing their thing as goths than (say) as any other subculture I could mention, and their goth is perfectly valid.
I'm not goth but felt it only showed one side of what being goth is. It had a definite slant.
I want his deathhawk i myself don't necessarily call myself a goth because i dress as a girly one day then goth next then tomboy ect..i don't just stay in one fashion category i don't label myself to be put in a box i like to experiment and expand lol but I do always usually wear black i don't wear makeup im on the natural side i love metal and rock and i just love the alternative side and anything dark and spooky anyway have a great day whoever reads this :)
none of your buisness you're just being yourself :) which is super awesome! Thanks for the positivity. I hope you have a great day too and continue to stay true(:
AND YES!!! I FELL IN LOVE WITH HIS DEATHHAWK TOO!
Kate awe thanks no problem you have a amazing day as well xoxo :) deathhawks rule! Lol
fashion category lol
Well, there is no shame in not being goth… it's a music based subculture, which unfortunately never comes through in these documentaries as they focus way too much on "life style", "state of mind" and other nonsense.
If you don't like at least some gothic rock or goth/post-punk related music, then you are hardly "goth". But in the end, labels are just there to make it easier for people to find what they like and connect with people with similar interests.
There is nothing lost if you don't qualify for the label or if you choose not to identify with it in the first place. If you think you can only dress "dark", like spooky things and listen to non-mainstream radio friendly music when you have some kind of gothic seal of trueness approval then you are wrong. Goth is a specific music based subculture. It doesn't have a monopoly on dark, gloomy things.
You can like dark stuff without being involved with the goth scene. And at this point, in the year of 2018, where everything that once was a visual signifier for some subculture (may it be hippies, rockers, punks or metalheads or hip hoppers) has become part of normal, mundane daily wear it's no longer a matter if you get yourself a deathhawk. Or paint you nails black…
+Asteria To be fair most normies don't even know goth has it's own music genre. They think it's a fashion style and lifestyle.
I though so too for most of my teens (now 33).
I have no trouble with the fact that there are people who say they are goth because they were goth clothes and have a goth lifestyle even though they do not listen to goth rock.
I've known a few like that who listened to classical music and symphonic metal, and that to be honest sounds incredibly goth to me.
I think it's a bit old and tired when people say "you're not goth until you listen to goth rock" but hey, that's just my opinion.
Loved it!!! Gothic Subculture -> Creative Individuality
Super cool. Thanks for sharing, much appreciated.
So cool to also see Goths of African descent in this...i have to see more! :D
this is my third video on this channel and i honestly have no idea what's going on. still trying to gauge the art to documentary ratio. heavily leaning towards the former.
Why everything must feature sexuality in 2018.
ma3x5 bk IKR....
Yeah it pissed me off too.
It's liberals pushing this shit on everyone.
Like everyone should be notified 24/7 what's someones sexuality.
Like I don't care what kind of a fucking pretzel one feels like, just keep it private with your lover.
Honestly that felt like a movie of the 80s. It's not a new subject within studies of the subculture.
I haven't really seen everything have sexuality involved. You could argue sexuality is just ingrained into our culture, as it's always been portrayed in some way, shape, or form throughout Western existence.. But if you look at goth, it exudes the dramatic, the exhilarating, the sexual, the taboo. The sexual nature of the Gothic deals more so with lust and desire. Look at Gothic literature and you will see such themes all over the place. The Goth culture naturally fits the subversion of expectation, including how sexuality is portrayed. We're not perverted people, mind. We just tend to be more "overt" when it comes to expression.
Why is that a problem???
Very cool video who explains the counterculture part of goth, which is very important.
There's me thinking it was mainly about music, literature, architecture and fashion. Silly me.
What is the name of the song playing at the end?
Goths are becoming a rarity. I remember back in the early 2000s in the mall there was always that pack of goths. I never see any today.
If it doesn't involve the MUSIC which is our roots then your version of GOTH is non-existent
We can have looks and thats fine and all but what really makes a person Goth is their taste in the MUSIC .
should be longer
didnt know goth was all about gender. almost seems like it has nothing to do with the fascination of things that are dark and morbid and just about gender bending
Goth isn't about gender. This video misrepresented the goth subculture imo, made it sound like those that like to cross dress or are transgender and like to dress as their target gender use the goth subculture to be able to do these things and avoid the amount of criticism they would have otherwise gotten if they cross dressed in mainstream fashion.
It makes me wonder, do these people actually like goth (fashion and music)? Or are they just using it as a convenient excuse, because cross dressing can easily be explained away by saying "it's goth, you wouldn't understand".
I'm 33 and never saw the supposed part of goth that this video illustrates. Goth has always been pretty tolerant to androgyny but I've never seen many cross dressers and trans in the community.
Makes me wonder how legit this supposed part actually is.
Plain Popcorn i found it quite strange that they never even bothered to explore the musical aspect, and the way the narrators spoke and how this was presented made it seem more like a propaganda piece than an informative video...
Plain Popcorn because your goth experience is every goth experience 🙄
okay artistic but can I see their outfits again full on and slower?!
I like the presentation, but what's with the gender queer and sexuality narrative being driven in here ?
I've been part of both the metal and goth scene since 8th grade and I'm now 27 years old.
Both scenes have proven to be pretty inclusive for different sorts of people as long as your in it for the MUSIC.
The political rhetoric only ruins scenes, so that shit should stay out since young people find it incredibly uncool.
I love The british accent
weirdos forever banded together
Lovely
PARAHAM🖤🖤🖤
love. love. love.
I'm in LovE
Parma Ham Deathhawk is the shit.
Parma Ham
oh good to here the propah oldschool accent
it doesn't matter what we look like. There's nothing to do except abolish capitalism.
against or along goth culture Free Poll VOTE NOW DOWN HERE !!
Everything else was really boring. I agree.. have to dress proper in everyday work life though.. whats in your head is the most important though.
- most kids grow out of it.
Parma!
epic
I love goth, but this seemed like a pile of pretentious crap >_< 'Look at me, I'm so different and dark and ethereal and moody'... don't take yourselves so seriously.
Shit!! Crazist in the world!
G YesUs : )
omgoth
goth is a parody of itself
@itsblakfriday should react to this
Jesus loves you
We are saved through God's grace not by our works alone because we are all sinners. Thank God sent his only son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. Repent for your sins and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. May God bless you all
Okay but that one guy's deathhawk is fucking awesome, how did he get it so big omg