50 year retired auto mechanic here, love what your doing, recommend you get a young protege to teach and pass on the knowledge and to assist you with the heavy jobs.
It would definitely be a great idea to find an apprentice to help you out with these large projects. Not only would it help you it would help he or her
Using the toe jack, as you did, but also using an air hammer to work the key from the back and the sides might get that key out. Heating the key in advance might be prudent as well.
Back when I was a farm equipment mechanic we had a special set of wedges that were tapered both to pull the gib keys . My pullers differ from the moon sliver type removers in that my removers are tapered in both the X and Y axis. so as to help hold them in place. If it were in my shop my next step would be a key puller alternating blows on the key puller and the slide hammer. then adding heat. I have pulled the head off of the gib key many times. I have also welded a fine threaded rod to the key and fashioned a short pipe and washer to make a puller
I love your channel. When you comeback from Bar Z Summer Bash, maybe vibration applied to the key (maybe sideways) of the shat, while putting pulling pressure with the porta-power and spreading jaws. Hope you have safe travels and joy at the Bash.
Hi Kieth I’m a retired Earth Moving Tech, I’ve been stuck like that in the field, an old saying comes to mind the bigger the job the bigger the hammer, I used a tapered wedge and a 16lb sledge hammer, drive the wedge in until it stops, then hit the key hard on the side, it will pay to put an old tyre or similar on top, because if it comes out it will be artillery, good luck, be safe
It will be interesting to see what you come up with for that key. After seeing how stuck that thing is, I feel like the best solution may be to drill it out. It's square and tapered, so the drill will leave a fair bit of material, but it will at least weaken the core, and hopefully help it collapse, and release some of the pressure. Alternatively, use one of those portable sinker EDMs for removing broken taps and bolts.
Keith - haven’t read through all 225 comments before me, so apologies if someone already suggested this. Try a hollow stem portapower and tie onto the stud you welded to the key. Leave the pressure on it and add heat as req’d.
Keith, I was holding my breath when you had all that pressure on the key. Being a millwright for over 40 years I learned my lesson the hard way, working on top of a 35 foot high storage tank with an agitator pulling the bull gear I didn't put a keeper on the shaft , when the gear came off it hit my knee and I had to be lowered off the tank. With 10 tons of pressure that key is a missel and you could have been really hurt. You could try two wedges and lots of heat. Good luck and stay safe.
For this sticky wicket I would like to suggest, lots of heat on hub of wheel to make the diameter larger releasing the taper some, put the toe jack in while hot or use wedges to apply tension, add shock waves with an engineer hammer or sledge on side of key and face of hub to add shock while under tension. With more heat it should release.
Years ago I restored an 8-16 Mogul tractor for a midwestern Agricultural Museum. I had the same problem with the gib key holding the drive gear on the crankshaft. I drilled out the center of the key with a bit slightly smaller then the dimension of the key. That relieved the pressure on the sides of the key allowing it to pull out with little effort. Also the old books say when removing gib keys to drive the the pulley, sprocket, what ever onto the shaft just enough to release the pressure on the key. The advantage the old timers had was they weren't dealing with 100 years of rust. Good luck
The idea of drilling the key out is sound based on my complete ignorance. My question is will doing so completely destroy this original key? If part of the idea is to restore as much as possible to original condition, I would be absolutely devastated, even if another of the same time period could be located to replace it.
@@chrisdavis5718Keys are consumable/sacrificial items, and whilst it would be nice to be able to preserve it, it’s loss would not be unexpected in these circumstances. Pressing the big gear on a fraction further to loosen the key sounds good in theory but would be impractical in this situation and it might already be on a shoulder on the shaft. Drilling out the key seems the best solution Cheers
If there is room, you can press the gear further onto the shaft first it will help to release the key. Clean and oils the shaft behind it first. This will also provide a little room to clean and oil the outer end of the main shaft to help removal of the main gear when you get to that point. Also you probably shouldn't rig the straps to the outer ring of the gear. It's to easy to overload it and cause a crack. Go through the spokes and choke to the shaft.
I don’t remember exactly what I’ve had to do this on a few times but the best method I found for gibb keys is to push the, in this case gear, further down on the shaft. The gibb remains in shaft and can be removed. It sounds wrong but it really does work.
Keith ! Use heat ! In till it turns red ! A lot of heat and use a wedge with a sledgehammer under the key to move it , it will come loose ! The heat will brake the rust loose - red hot !
Keith, I really appreciate how you never say negative things about the creators / users / maintainers of the machines you restore! The intrinsic respect you show is so indicative of your humility. Can't say how much that means to me and the world! The only way incredible machines like this came to BE was by people working TOGETHER. If you listen carefully, you can almost hear all the voices of the people that created this mill... no doubt their spirits are smiling brightly right now.
Wow! I would love to be helping you with that. Too many duties right now. Perhaps next year I'll come see you. I've often wondered why you don't use a mechanic's induction bolt heater for jobs like that tapered key. That would heat the key to cherry red, burning and crushing the rust at the same time.
Dear Mr. Rucker, I really enjoy watching you work. If I may, I have a suggestion to make that cane mill shaft lift a little safer. I was a millwright for 34yrs. You need to have separate slings for each end of the shaft. It will prevent slipping to one end. Ask me how I know! Thanks for what you do, keep up the great work. Sincerely, Tom Low
Noticed that too and had same concern. Another slightly less proper solution could be to wrap the sling around the hook once, once you know where you need it to be.
I worked on the railroad and found that the most effective way to move a large stuck Item was vibration. The air hammer was a great friend of mine in those days.
With that gear and shaft hanging from the gear, the weight of the shaft is compressing the gib key into the key-way making it harder to pull. I suggest that you carry the weight on the shaft underneath and just support the wheel enough to balance. Put the key under light tension, put as much penetrating oil on it as is feasible, attach a high-frequency vibrator (oscillating multi-tool or similar) to the key and go on your trip. Have your neighbor drop by every day or two to put some more penetrating oil onto the area and to check the tension. When you get back it will be easier to separate. Whether it will be easy enough is the big question. Good luck and safe travels.
You just know Keith will get to a stage where the 39.72 inch reverse odd-threaded splinding coupling gear will need repairing, and he’ll take it over to his 1835 splindling coupling gear resurfacing lathe, pull a giant lever to set it to reverse threading, and attach his 39.72 inch rod holder, while remarking that he hasn’t used the machine lately. Keith has a machining Tardis.
To pull the key out and the shaft. You will need to put a ring of metal around the end and fill it with coal. To heat it red hot. To burn the rust and expand the cast gear.
I first saw your work with Tally HO and it was very very interesting and I thought that was it for me. But, again you got me interested. Tks for sharing your knowledge and passion.
It's how I ended up here way back when Keith worked on Leo's threading machine. Now I can't get enough iron fix and I'm worse than any crack head ever could be without it.
I had a similar issue on a wedge key, hung solid. My neighbor at the time (old time machinist, auto mechanic) heated the key, tapped it with a hammer, while applying jack pressure, not a lot. A bit more than just pushing. With me tapping with a brass hammer (center out) and him operating the torch and jacking. After an hour it suddenly popped out. Said the heat had to work the oxide out of the joint before it would free up. Did scare the bejeebers out of me when it came free. The harder issue was the pulley off the shaft. Wish I kept the pop pop motor. Needed more work than I could afford, so I had to sell it. 😢
Keith, Had some success using fox wedges. Need a slow taper, might need two wedges for this job. Make them of a good size and from spring steel, old car or truck springs. Anneal before cutting to size or it will ruin even a HSS blade. I forge the taper on mine under the power hammer adds extra strength because of that. Normalize and re- heat treat and temper. Weld a piece of flat bar on the side of the gib key head to stop the tendency of the wedge to come out sideways. Use a big hammer as big as will fit in and one that you can handle without over taxing your Pacemaker. A son or son - in- law is ideal to do the hammer wielding. Crates of beer help too even if only to drown your sorrows if that key or gear wheel refuses to budge.. You might just get lucky although I seldom do. Might still ( no you will ) have to apply some heat to the gear hub ( lots of it too ) with at least a 2in rose bud 2 being preferable so you will need a mate or perhaps the Missus to give you a hand and deep pockets to pay for the gas. Peter.
Hello Keith. What a great piece for you to help restore. Up here I am one of few that can pour bearings. Love it every time the opportunaty allows. LOL, These taper/gib tees work great holding things from moving BUT Getiing them apart is a whole different story EH, LOL. Have a great time at the BASH It is over 3000 miles fromm here so I just can't get there.
Been down this exact situation with the tapered keys on our old oil field equipment up here in southern ontario Canada... I've used enerpacs and slide hammers in tandem with 98% success. Have also used two wedges countering each other and a slide hammer and works like magic
Great project Keith. The key has signs of being hit from the sides. A few horizontal whacks may loosen it a bit. Really looking forward to 'working with you' on this one. ❤
- Keith, I’ll be watching your work on this cane mill with great interest. Back in the late ’70s, I was in the plant nursery business, and my family and I lived just north of La Crosse, Florida, 17 miles north of Gainesville. There was a cane mill there, under a tin shed roof, on the outskirts of the town. It was fascinating, in season, to watch the process, which was really eye catching, as the mill was powered by a mule, who was harnessed to a long pole, with the mill attached to the same pole, at the center of the circle that the mule spent his day walking. It’s hard to believe that those days are already almost fifty years gone! Thanks, Keith, for sharing your work here on TH-cam! All the best to you and yours! ❤️
Keith, you're scaring me standing right in front of that spreader while you're pumping it up. If that thing snaped, it's going to hit you right in the face.
Just don’t get in the way of the expected travel. A sandbag would work as well. Also a lot more heat will just break the rust as a result of the heat. Let it cool down. All the nuts look like penetrating oil was used should also apply to this tapered key.
I would like to see all three attempts (heat, hydraulic and shock) put together at the same time. I hope when it does come lose it doesn't shoot through the roof? Good Luck Keith, I've got faith in you. Thank you for sharing, God Bless.
We used to drive a wedge between the hook of the key and the flywheel on big old oil field equipment. One can generate huge amounts of force with a wedge.
On tapered pressed shafts, in the past I have put the taper under tension and left overnight. More than a couple times when I came back the next morning the taper will break loose
Keith have you tried both hydraulic pressure and impacts at the same time to remove the key? Hammer, slid hammer, air impact hammer shocking all sides including the gear surface around the key. If accessible maybe try applying the hydraulic pressure or impacts on the other side of the taper key. And if that doesn't work you can try it with heat and hydraulic pressure and impacts together.
Keith, I’m in Indianapolis, a company my wife works for, their specialty is thermal metal spray. They do a lot of parts for aerospace and the aircraft industry. Even do some work for a couple of race car owners for the Indy 500. If you need it, if you turn those rollers, down, they could spray them oversized for you to turn them back to original diameter. Let me know.
Keith has all that gear himself. You may have heard him say, "I don't think I'll need to weld it up, just turn it down". He's shown metal spraying on his channel before.
Use some heat and penetrating oil and just let it sit. Then get some putty, build a cup around only the key, and pour some liquid nitrogen into the cup. Refill the cup with liquid nitrogen a time or two, this should shrink the key enough to make extracting it easier. Push come to shove, if at all possible, drill the key out as best you can and then use a chisel and bang out the scraps left.
The risk there is that the cold makes the metal brittle. You can end up popping the head off of the key, and then you are SOL. I've always found that putting a strain on it (in this case with something like the toe jack) and then whacking it with a hammer (or even the slide hammer) is one of the more productive approaches. The vibration caused by the whack can be enough to let the part move a bit. Eventually it can pop loose. But definitely soak it down thoroughly before you leave for CA. And then ignore it for a few days so you can enjoy your trip.
Also an eye screw welded to the head of the gib key allows one to use an automotive slide hammer axel puller on it, With a steel wedge, a slide hammer and soem Krool sprayed it might come out.
When I was living in Ky my neighbor made sorghum. He had a mill smaller that this, but still powered by a belt from an "H" tractor. When i was a child I loved to see him grind the cane and cook the juice down. Very good memories!
How about using two wedges under the head of the key and maybe a air hammer or two to wedge them apart. You could even apply heat to the wedges to expand them once pounded in place.
You've probably already gotten it loose, but I like the toe jack method. I'd just take an air hammer to it while it was under tension and see if can't be vibrated loose...
If I may suggest….set your jack on the gib key and put some force on it and then get an air hammer and rattle on it. That nearly always works with stuck parts on cars and heavy vehicles.
My solution to this promlrm is an air hammer; massage it - spray with penetrating oil - repeat many times, smack the key, repeat, repeat - it will come. you need to overcome that initial "stiction". i believe the gear will have to be pressed off with an industrial press, heat and a sledge hammer.
Oddly enough, there was also a Golden Foundry in my home town, Columbus, Indiana. I know one of the products they made were engine blocks for the Chrysler Corporation.
A method i've used in the past to remove those blasted keys is to make a "collar" that fits around the lip of the key and surrounds it on the back as well (the collar is made from two parts, which are welded in place over the key). Then, that receives a thick wall tubing piece, which itself is welded on that collar. And then i used a D10 to pull. :D Obviously, Keith doesn't have a D10 on hand, but the idea is that it helps spread the load and pull centered. The "hook" just doesn't work in my opinion, entirely based on "hopes and prayers". You need massive amounts of heat, lubricant by the drum and brute force.
@@silasmarner7586 I can clearly visualize aserta's method, it does work, as he said. The non-centered pulling methods Keith is using only lend themselves to continued off axis stress which will exacerbate the problem. Tough nut to crack here, no solutions with what I see short of gouging the key area of the shaft.
I had no idea sugar cane mills were still used by hobbyists and small farms today, let alone giant machines like this still desired. A bit of a regional thing but its still nice seeing these machines that built a part of American history.
0-5:00 " We have a commercial size cane crusher to restore" Put your pressure on the key with the toe jack , heat the key and then quench it with water and give it a whack with a big hammer.
I have learned that these keys are supposed to be removed with two steel wedges for preloading. then shocking it with , in this case, the slidehammer. Maybe worth a try Keith . cheers from ther Netherlands.
Keith, you are a badass! I know you will figure this out, as you have so many other things! I learn from everything you do and I thank you for being such a wonderful teacher in all aspects of what you do! Thanks for everything you do!
Love the work that youre doing Keith, that cane mill is a small one though, compared to what i'm acustomed to, i used to work at Andrews Sugar Factory in Barbados before it was shut down. The mill used to be 4 mills in line, each mill had 3 large crushing rollers, each roller between 12 and 13 tons. The grinding rate , well i've seen it grinding over 140 tons of cane per hour. Look forwards to seeing this one restored. By the way, would it have been babbit? The big mills that i'm acustomed to , they use brasses.
Since you're going away for a couple of days, soak the joint between wheel and shaft, plus the key, with WD 40 or some other penitrant . If practical, have someone renew the doseing of the area with penetrant a couple of times a day. When you get back, heat the wheel's hub and spray WD 40 again while its hot. It will smoke like crazy but the rapid cooling will help to crack the rust loose plus draw the penetrant in. Then apply your full ram with a backplate behind the hub and the ram on the shaft end.
What about cutting the end of the key off and drilling out as much of it as possible then you can rig up a press to push the shaft out of the large gear
I hope you sprayed the key again, and put your toe jack back to work with a good load while you are gone. When you come back I'll bet it would be released. Sometimes just leaving it there under a load will do the job. No need to leave it full force with it bending the toe jack... but a lot of the work will be time.
Imagine how creative people had to get to work on machines like this more than 100 years ago! I will watch this series of videos with great interest in how you solve these problems - as you always do! Thanks.
Keith, another great episode. I started watching thru Sampson Boat. Watched the Capstan restoration from the beginning and enjoyed them all. I watch them on my living room TV so there's no chance to comment there. Cheers and best, dave
Hello Keith, You and Clarke are enjoying all of that good food on the way west and probably this is the last thing on your mind. I would heat the head of the key as hot as possible without melting it. Put your toe jack on it, soak it in Kroil, and let it sit for days or a week. It might come or might not. My second and preferred idea is to put it between centers on the boring mill and work up a way of grinding the shaft with the gear in place. You're going to have to think outside the box again. This is no fifty-dollar cookstove and doesn't have to be that precise. There surely is a viewer that has access to a huge lathe that could handle this. That vertical lathe in that old machine shop that you and Abom looked at would have been useful here. We could have watched you rebuilding it and trying to shoehorn it into a corner of your shop.
my thought is heat the gear, then add high temp oil. The heat hopefully draw the oil into what ever gaps there are. Then put pressure on the side of the pin with the hydraulic 10 ton jack. while the jack is applying pressure use the hammer puller at the same time. also Tommybewick mentioned a SAFETY CONCERN I never heard of but I must keep it in mind for the future.
Keith I sugguest the time old remedy for stuck gears and etc. heat and quench. Expandsion and quick cooling seams to break up the rust every time. The size of this gear hub will take time for sure to bring up to temperature then run the water hose over it cooling it down. The key should start to move for you.
To remove the key heat the outside gear not the hub. This will put the hub in tension. then use the tow jack to pull the key out . If you don't believe me see Jpaydirt remove the drive gear on a Cat D9.
Why you don't tap sharply on the sides of that key to compress the corrosive bond while lifting with the toe jack? Just a thought for a wonderful guy Keith you're a great example of how work actually gets done.
50 year retired auto mechanic here, love what your doing, recommend you get a young protege to teach and pass on the knowledge and to assist you with the heavy jobs.
Can't agree more
@@luukdeboer1974 I also worry about Keith working alone with that heavy stuff.
It would definitely be a great idea to find an apprentice to help you out with these large projects. Not only would it help you it would help he or her
Agree. I'm curious about what Brock is doing in life. I think he is still working at the museum. He's been working with keith for years.
Keith used to have a young lad working with him from time to time. I'm not sure if he still does.
Using the toe jack, as you did, but also using an air hammer to work the key from the back and the sides might get that key out. Heating the key in advance might be prudent as well.
Yes, combine everything. Apply heat, apply some preload with the toe jack and shock it with the slidehammer.
Yes, use heat, the toe jack under the key, and the air chisel/hammer on the key to shock it loose.
Back when I was a farm equipment mechanic we had a special set of wedges that were tapered both to pull the gib keys . My pullers differ from the moon sliver type removers in that my removers are tapered in both the X and Y axis. so as to help hold them in place. If it were in my shop my next step would be a key puller alternating blows on the key puller and the slide hammer. then adding heat. I have pulled the head off of the gib key many times. I have also welded a fine threaded rod to the key and fashioned a short pipe and washer to make a puller
As a retired HD mechanic I carried and often used splitting wedges, sometimes singularly, sometimes in pairs
I love your channel. When you comeback from Bar Z Summer Bash, maybe vibration applied to the key (maybe sideways) of the shat, while putting pulling pressure with the porta-power and spreading jaws. Hope you have safe travels and joy at the Bash.
I'm not a machinist nor mechanic, bue started to watch ZK Master Tech, and he uses vibration with a pneumatic hammer to pull stuck bearings or nuts.
Hi Kieth I’m a retired Earth Moving Tech, I’ve been stuck like that in the field, an old saying comes to mind the bigger the job the bigger the hammer, I used a tapered wedge and a 16lb sledge hammer, drive the wedge in until it stops, then hit the key hard on the side, it will pay to put an old tyre or similar on top, because if it comes out it will be artillery, good luck, be safe
It will be interesting to see what you come up with for that key. After seeing how stuck that thing is, I feel like the best solution may be to drill it out. It's square and tapered, so the drill will leave a fair bit of material, but it will at least weaken the core, and hopefully help it collapse, and release some of the pressure. Alternatively, use one of those portable sinker EDMs for removing broken taps and bolts.
Keith - haven’t read through all 225 comments before me, so apologies if someone already suggested this.
Try a hollow stem portapower and tie onto the stud you welded to the key. Leave the pressure on it and add heat as req’d.
Keith, I was holding my breath when you had all that pressure on the key. Being a millwright for over 40 years I learned my lesson the hard way, working on top of a 35 foot high storage tank with an agitator pulling the bull gear I didn't put a keeper on the shaft , when the gear came off it hit my knee and I had to be lowered off the tank. With 10 tons of pressure that key is a missel and you could have been really hurt. You could try two wedges and lots of heat. Good luck and stay safe.
For this sticky wicket I would like to suggest, lots of heat on hub of wheel to make the diameter larger releasing the taper some, put the toe jack in while hot or use wedges to apply tension, add shock waves with an engineer hammer or sledge on side of key and face of hub to add shock while under tension. With more heat it should release.
Years ago I restored an 8-16 Mogul tractor for a midwestern Agricultural Museum. I had the same problem with the gib key holding the drive gear on the crankshaft. I drilled out the center of the key with a bit slightly smaller then the dimension of the key. That relieved the pressure on the sides of the key allowing it to pull out with little effort. Also the old books say when removing gib keys to drive the the pulley, sprocket, what ever onto the shaft just enough to release the pressure on the key. The advantage the old timers had was they weren't dealing with 100 years of rust. Good luck
I was thinking that drilling it out would help too.
@@davidhamm5626 Me too. It may be the only way to do it as time and rust have basically welded it it.
The idea of drilling the key out is sound based on my complete ignorance. My question is will doing so completely destroy this original key? If part of the idea is to restore as much as possible to original condition, I would be absolutely devastated, even if another of the same time period could be located to replace it.
@@chrisdavis5718Keys are consumable/sacrificial items, and whilst it would be nice to be able to preserve it, it’s loss would not be unexpected in these circumstances. Pressing the big gear on a fraction further to loosen the key sounds good in theory but would be impractical in this situation and it might already be on a shoulder on the shaft. Drilling out the key seems the best solution Cheers
@@chrisdavis5718 That is what most of us would call a "wear or sacrificial " part.
That one could it's self,could have been a replacement .
I had to chuckle when the nuts turned out to be different sizes. I’ve experienced that so many times myself when working on old farm equipment.
Toe jack plus slide hammer plus heat all at the same time! Leave it under pressure with the toe jack!
If there is room, you can press the gear further onto the shaft first it will help to release the key. Clean and oils the shaft behind it first. This will also provide a little room to clean and oil the outer end of the main shaft to help removal of the main gear when you get to that point. Also you probably shouldn't rig the straps to the outer ring of the gear. It's to easy to overload it and cause a crack. Go through the spokes and choke to the shaft.
I don’t remember exactly what I’ve had to do this on a few times but the best method I found for gibb keys is to push the, in this case gear, further down on the shaft. The gibb remains in shaft and can be removed. It sounds wrong but it really does work.
The gear is on a taper, it ain't going any further down the shaft.
@@ionstorm66 and what if it is not tapered?
I’m betting the shaft is straight. A tapered gib key works very much like a tapered shaft. You would not need both.
I agree. Hesston Co. used lots of gibb keys on farm equipment. Driving the gear further on the shaft will loosen the key.
@@johnirwin1837 What if it is? What if aliens land on the white house lawn?
Keith, the old stuck key is shaped to use a wedge to drive between flat face and key " tag or extension".
Keith ! Use heat ! In till it turns red ! A lot of heat and use a wedge with a sledgehammer under the key to move it , it will come loose ! The heat will brake the rust loose - red hot !
When you put the key under pressure with the toe jack, try smacking the key with a hammer. The added shock might help.
Keith, I really appreciate how you never say negative things about the creators / users / maintainers of the machines you restore! The intrinsic respect you show is so indicative of your humility. Can't say how much that means to me and the world! The only way incredible machines like this came to BE was by people working TOGETHER. If you listen carefully, you can almost hear all the voices of the people that created this mill... no doubt their spirits are smiling brightly right now.
Wow! I would love to be helping you with that. Too many duties right now. Perhaps next year I'll come see you. I've often wondered why you don't use a mechanic's induction bolt heater for jobs like that tapered key. That would heat the key to cherry red, burning and crushing the rust at the same time.
Hi Keith,Just watched the tally Ho Capstan bing fitted. Tour spectacular skills being matched by Leo's mastery in wood. well done
Dear Mr. Rucker, I really enjoy watching you work. If I may, I have a suggestion to make that cane mill shaft lift a little safer. I was a millwright for 34yrs. You need to have separate slings for each end of the shaft. It will prevent slipping to one end. Ask me how I know! Thanks for what you do, keep up the great work. Sincerely, Tom Low
Had the same thought. I'm an old boiler maker.
Noticed that too and had same concern. Another slightly less proper solution could be to wrap the sling around the hook once, once you know where you need it to be.
I thought of the toe jack too and figured it would do it.
Penetrating oil time? Great work as always!
Good morning everyone watching, from Lincolnshire UK 🇬🇧
Norfolk, UK
Vrndavan, India
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Cheshire UK here
Shropshire, UK
I worked on the railroad and found that the most effective way to move a large stuck Item was vibration. The air hammer was a great friend of mine in those days.
With that gear and shaft hanging from the gear, the weight of the shaft is compressing the gib key into the key-way making it harder to pull. I suggest that you carry the weight on the shaft underneath and just support the wheel enough to balance. Put the key under light tension, put as much penetrating oil on it as is feasible, attach a high-frequency vibrator (oscillating multi-tool or similar) to the key and go on your trip. Have your neighbor drop by every day or two to put some more penetrating oil onto the area and to check the tension.
When you get back it will be easier to separate. Whether it will be easy enough is the big question. Good luck and safe travels.
I think Keith's Evapo-Rust tank is going to be FULL on this job!
Wow, really cool project! Glad I get to watch you do all the work though instead of me doing it :)
You just know Keith will get to a stage where the 39.72 inch reverse odd-threaded splinding coupling gear will need repairing, and he’ll take it over to his 1835 splindling coupling gear resurfacing lathe, pull a giant lever to set it to reverse threading, and attach his 39.72 inch rod holder, while remarking that he hasn’t used the machine lately.
Keith has a machining Tardis.
To pull the key out and the shaft. You will need to put a ring of metal around the end and fill it with coal. To heat it red hot. To burn the rust and expand the cast gear.
I first saw your work with Tally HO and it was very very interesting and I thought that was it for me. But, again you got me interested. Tks for sharing your knowledge and passion.
It's how I ended up here way back when Keith worked on Leo's threading machine. Now I can't get enough iron fix and I'm worse than any crack head ever could be without it.
I had a similar issue on a wedge key, hung solid. My neighbor at the time (old time machinist, auto mechanic) heated the key, tapped it with a hammer, while applying jack pressure, not a lot. A bit more than just pushing. With me tapping with a brass hammer (center out) and him operating the torch and jacking. After an hour it suddenly popped out. Said the heat had to work the oxide out of the joint before it would free up. Did scare the bejeebers out of me when it came free. The harder issue was the pulley off the shaft. Wish I kept the pop pop motor. Needed more work than I could afford, so I had to sell it. 😢
Keith,
Had some success using fox wedges.
Need a slow taper, might need two wedges for this job. Make them of a good size and from spring steel, old car or truck springs. Anneal before cutting to size or it will ruin even a HSS blade.
I forge the taper on mine under the power hammer adds extra strength because of that. Normalize and re- heat treat and temper.
Weld a piece of flat bar on the side of the gib key head to stop the tendency of the wedge to come out sideways. Use a big hammer as big as will fit in and one that you can handle without over taxing your Pacemaker. A son or son - in- law is ideal to do the hammer wielding. Crates of beer help too even if only to drown your sorrows if that key or gear wheel refuses to budge.. You might just get lucky although I seldom do.
Might still ( no you will ) have to apply some heat to the gear hub ( lots of it too ) with at least a 2in rose bud 2 being preferable so you will need a mate or perhaps the Missus to give you a hand and deep pockets to pay for the gas.
Peter.
Hello Keith. What a great piece for you to help restore. Up here I am one of few that can pour bearings. Love it every time the opportunaty allows. LOL, These taper/gib tees work great holding things from moving BUT Getiing them apart is a whole different story EH, LOL. Have a great time at the BASH It is over 3000 miles fromm here so I just can't get there.
Been down this exact situation with the tapered keys on our old oil field equipment up here in southern ontario Canada... I've used enerpacs and slide hammers in tandem with 98% success. Have also used two wedges countering each other and a slide hammer and works like magic
Great project Keith.
The key has signs of being hit from the sides. A few horizontal whacks may loosen it a bit.
Really looking forward to 'working with you' on this one. ❤
- Keith, I’ll be watching your work on this cane mill with great interest. Back in the late ’70s, I was in the plant nursery business, and my family and I lived just north of La Crosse, Florida, 17 miles north of Gainesville. There was a cane mill there, under a tin shed roof, on the outskirts of the town. It was fascinating, in season, to watch the process, which was really eye catching, as the mill was powered by a mule, who was harnessed to a long pole, with the mill attached to the same pole, at the center of the circle that the mule spent his day walking. It’s hard to believe that those days are already almost fifty years gone! Thanks, Keith, for sharing your work here on TH-cam! All the best to you and yours! ❤️
the Amish still do that...mostly for sorghum in more northern lattitudes
Keith, you're scaring me standing right in front of that spreader while you're pumping it up. If that thing snaped, it's going to hit you right in the face.
Present a complete solution, please.
Just don’t get in the way of the expected travel. A sandbag would work as well. Also a lot more heat will just break the rust as a result of the heat. Let it cool down. All the nuts look like penetrating oil was used should also apply to this tapered key.
I would like to see all three attempts (heat, hydraulic and shock) put together at the same time. I hope when it does come lose it doesn't shoot through the roof? Good Luck Keith, I've got faith in you. Thank you for sharing, God Bless.
We used to drive a wedge between the hook of the key and the flywheel on big old oil field equipment. One can generate huge amounts of force with a wedge.
On tapered pressed shafts, in the past I have put the taper under tension and left overnight. More than a couple times when I came back the next morning the taper will break loose
Old King Rust wins again, but what a noble effort ! If that capstan got unstuck so will this.
Keith have you tried both hydraulic pressure and impacts at the same time to remove the key? Hammer, slid hammer, air impact hammer shocking all sides including the gear surface around the key. If accessible maybe try applying the hydraulic pressure or impacts on the other side of the taper key. And if that doesn't work you can try it with heat and hydraulic pressure and impacts together.
Keith, I’m in Indianapolis, a company my wife works for, their specialty is thermal metal spray. They do a lot of parts for aerospace and the aircraft industry. Even do some work for a couple of race car owners for the Indy 500. If you need it, if you turn those rollers, down, they could spray them oversized for you to turn them back to original diameter. Let me know.
Keith has all that gear himself. You may have heard him say, "I don't think I'll need to weld it up, just turn it down". He's shown metal spraying on his channel before.
Got it. Didn't know that.
@@richwallace4632 Nice offer though! What is the company name if you don't mind sharing?
Use some heat and penetrating oil and just let it sit. Then get some putty, build a cup around only the key, and pour some liquid nitrogen into the cup. Refill the cup with liquid nitrogen a time or two, this should shrink the key enough to make extracting it easier. Push come to shove, if at all possible, drill the key out as best you can and then use a chisel and bang out the scraps left.
The risk there is that the cold makes the metal brittle. You can end up popping the head off of the key, and then you are SOL. I've always found that putting a strain on it (in this case with something like the toe jack) and then whacking it with a hammer (or even the slide hammer) is one of the more productive approaches. The vibration caused by the whack can be enough to let the part move a bit. Eventually it can pop loose. But definitely soak it down thoroughly before you leave for CA. And then ignore it for a few days so you can enjoy your trip.
Also an eye screw welded to the head of the gib key allows one to use an automotive slide hammer axel puller on it, With a steel wedge, a slide hammer and soem Krool sprayed it might come out.
When I was living in Ky my neighbor made sorghum. He had a mill smaller that this, but still powered by a belt from an "H" tractor. When i was a child I loved to see him grind the cane and cook the juice down. Very good memories!
How about using two wedges under the head of the key and maybe a air hammer or two to wedge them apart. You could even apply heat to the wedges to expand them once pounded in place.
I like the toe jack idea. Add to it, some heat on the hub and a few hits from an air hammer.
Heat that hub with a big rosebud while you got toe jack pressure on it and I think it will come. Heat always trumps force but both combined is POWA! 🙂
Being your going out of town soak that pin and shaft down with PB Blaster and let it sit. It will work wonders when it has time to sit and work
You've probably already gotten it loose, but I like the toe jack method. I'd just take an air hammer to it while it was under tension and see if can't be vibrated loose...
Picked a doozie to restore with this one. Explosives came to mind, but I guess you want it to work in the end.
Use your toe jack and when you have the pressure on it give the key a few good walks with a solid hammer. It needs to be shocked. Good luck
If I may suggest….set your jack on the gib key and put some force on it and then get an air hammer and rattle on it. That nearly always works with stuck parts on cars and heavy vehicles.
Good morning Keith! Have a great trip.
My solution to this promlrm is an air hammer; massage it - spray with penetrating oil - repeat many times, smack the key, repeat, repeat - it will come. you need to overcome that initial "stiction". i believe the gear will have to be pressed off with an industrial press, heat and a sledge hammer.
Oddly enough, there was also a Golden Foundry in my home town, Columbus, Indiana. I know one of the products they made were engine blocks for the Chrysler Corporation.
A method i've used in the past to remove those blasted keys is to make a "collar" that fits around the lip of the key and surrounds it on the back as well (the collar is made from two parts, which are welded in place over the key). Then, that receives a thick wall tubing piece, which itself is welded on that collar. And then i used a D10 to pull. :D Obviously, Keith doesn't have a D10 on hand, but the idea is that it helps spread the load and pull centered. The "hook" just doesn't work in my opinion, entirely based on "hopes and prayers". You need massive amounts of heat, lubricant by the drum and brute force.
Send a diagram to Keith or a hand drawing. I can't tall a whit what you're trying to express.
@@silasmarner7586 I can clearly visualize aserta's method, it does work, as he said. The non-centered pulling methods Keith is using only lend themselves to continued off axis stress which will exacerbate the problem. Tough nut to crack here, no solutions with what I see short of gouging the key area of the shaft.
Man Keith your projects are monumental. Always enjoy going along for the ride, thanks for driving! Can’t wait to see this one come together.
No problem,YOU can and will get it done
That's a lot of iron, in good hands!
Good effort on that key. Check out some older videos from Shop Dog Sam and his tool on how to get those keys out. I seems to work for him.
I had no idea sugar cane mills were still used by hobbyists and small farms today, let alone giant machines like this still desired. A bit of a regional thing but its still nice seeing these machines that built a part of American history.
Not everything comes from Costco. Lots of local and regional small farms and such all over.
Happy trails. You might try to drill the thing out. Thin it down. Good luck.
Good Morning Keith. Be safe, that thing looks dangerous. Have fun out in California.
0-5:00 " We have a commercial size cane crusher to restore" Put your pressure on the key with the toe jack , heat the key and then quench it with water and give it a whack with a big hammer.
Good afternoon everyone watching from Gloucestershire UK.
I have learned that these keys are supposed to be removed with two steel wedges for preloading. then shocking it with , in this case, the slidehammer. Maybe worth a try Keith . cheers from ther Netherlands.
Hollow ram jack,with some good chains
That is one big bit of heavy metal there Keith. You really need some big kit to work on that.
Keith, you are a badass! I know you will figure this out, as you have so many other things! I learn from everything you do and I thank you for being such a wonderful teacher in all aspects of what you do! Thanks for everything you do!
now that its cribbed up, weld lifting point to key use chainfalls as pulling force while appling heat and shock
I bet you could rig an air chisel up to some sort of slide hammer/puller and use that as a pneumatic slide hammer. That plus continuous heat.
Love the work that youre doing Keith, that cane mill is a small one though, compared to what i'm acustomed to, i used to work at Andrews Sugar Factory in Barbados before it was shut down. The mill used to be 4 mills in line, each mill had 3 large crushing rollers, each roller between 12 and 13 tons. The grinding rate , well i've seen it grinding over 140 tons of cane per hour. Look forwards to seeing this one restored. By the way, would it have been babbit? The big mills that i'm acustomed to , they use brasses.
Since you're going away for a couple of days, soak the joint between wheel and shaft, plus the key, with WD 40 or some other penitrant . If practical, have someone renew the doseing of the area with penetrant a couple of times a day. When you get back, heat the wheel's hub and spray WD 40 again while its hot. It will smoke like crazy but the rapid cooling will help to crack the rust loose plus draw the penetrant in. Then apply your full ram with a backplate behind the hub and the ram on the shaft end.
What about cutting the end of the key off and drilling out as much of it as possible then you can rig up a press to push the shaft out of the large gear
Love the ‘can do’ attitude on this channel! 👍
Put pressure with yellow jack and hit the pin on opposite side with hand mall. Jack is putting uneven pull pressure that is a bonding force.
I hope you sprayed the key again, and put your toe jack back to work with a good load while you are gone. When you come back I'll bet it would be released. Sometimes just leaving it there under a load will do the job. No need to leave it full force with it bending the toe jack... but a lot of the work will be time.
Ohhh - nice project, we will be watching :)
"We're gonna beat it" Love the determination.
Imagine how creative people had to get to work on machines like this more than 100 years ago! I will watch this series of videos with great interest in how you solve these problems - as you always do! Thanks.
Keith, another great episode. I started watching thru Sampson Boat. Watched the Capstan restoration from the beginning and enjoyed them all. I watch them on my living room TV so there's no chance to comment there. Cheers and best, dave
Great content that makes my day every week, Thanks Keith Just one more word, HEAT
Hello Keith, You and Clarke are enjoying all of that good food on the way west and probably this is the last thing on your mind.
I would heat the head of the key as hot as possible without melting it. Put your toe jack on it, soak it in Kroil, and let it sit for days or a week. It might come or might not. My second and preferred idea is to put it between centers on the boring mill and work up a way of grinding the shaft with the gear in place. You're going to have to think outside the box again. This is no fifty-dollar cookstove and doesn't have to be that precise. There surely is a viewer that has access to a huge lathe that could handle this. That vertical lathe in that old machine shop that you and Abom looked at would have been useful here. We could have watched you rebuilding it and trying to shoehorn it into a corner of your shop.
my thought is heat the gear, then add high temp oil. The heat hopefully draw the oil into what ever gaps there are. Then put pressure on the side of the pin with the hydraulic 10 ton jack. while the jack is applying pressure use the hammer puller at the same time.
also Tommybewick mentioned a SAFETY CONCERN I never heard of but I must keep it in mind for the future.
Hello from Scotland 🏴🥃; another really interesting project / video from Keith
Keith I sugguest the time old remedy for stuck gears and etc. heat and quench. Expandsion and quick cooling seams to break up the rust every time. The size of this gear hub will take time for sure to bring up to temperature then run the water hose over it cooling it down. The key should start to move for you.
Great work, Keith. I love seeing those big 3/4 inch sockets going to work.
To remove the key heat the outside gear not the hub. This will put the hub in tension. then use the tow jack to pull the key out . If you don't believe me see Jpaydirt
remove the drive gear on a Cat D9.
Love these kind of videos!
What a challenging project Keith. I look forward to the future videos. Have a great trip and thanks for sharing.
That big mill will be a challenge! Make some luck!
That’s some project Keith 👍
Definitely going to take some more heat to loosen that up. Enjoy the Bash. Thanks for sharing.
I’ve has worked for me drilling and tapping a hole in the gib key and using a puller
Really looking forward to the refurbishing and completion of this new project. Have a safe journey to California. Cheers from 🇨🇦
Why you don't tap sharply on the sides of that key to compress the corrosive bond while lifting with the toe jack? Just a thought for a wonderful guy Keith you're a great example of how work actually gets done.
I've had to take a long tapered punch on the small end of the tapered key. They can be tight but a few good hits can free them. Have a good trip.