Why top wrap strings on Les Paul and SG tailpieces?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ม.ค. 2016
- A discussion of why some players top-wrap their strings over Les Paul and SG tailpieces. Keep in mind that what is being described here is NOT due to string length. You can experience the increase in playability that top-wrapping affords you by simply raising the tailpiece quite a bit. Many prefer to keep the tailpiece lower and top-wrap instead. You get the same effect either way.
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I have an older les Paul, and have been stringing it using the wrap around method with the tail piece all the way down for quite some time. All I have to say is the guitar and playability is just incredible...I challenge people who never done it this way to try it and you'll never regret it....trust me, it makes a world of difference...
Really....
Why not do it the RIGHT WAY?? if it was some kind of voodoo magic theyd come from the factory like that. LEARN TO SET YOUR GUITAR UP PROPERLY.
I bombed the bank 2 years ago on a Custom Shop VOS '59 Sunburst Reissue and I've struggled in the dark trying to understand this issue ever since.. ... I learned more from this 8 minute video than I have in the entire 2 years. .... SUBSCRIBED!. .... WELL DONE! ..... keep 'er comin' MAN!
Yes, the mystery of top wrapping was simply demonstrated with a cardboard tube and a string. Amazing. And there are all these idiots disliking the video and commenting about "tone-wood" mongering... this is just an explanation!
I just stumbled on to your clip this morning. This was an outstanding tutorial about top-wrapping. You covered it expertly, from stem to stern...Thank you very much.
Thank you so much much for making this so clear! I had a good idea of this top wrapping concept but you really nailed and I more clear than before. Thanks!
Small rubber bands holding the intonation screws together and feeding a piece of rubber band through the saddle with the screw works
this is the reason i like to watch these information type videos about how to work and fix electric guitar problems,thanks Mr guts!!
I've done this for years & as you rightly pointed out, it depends on the needs of the instrument. I don't like a sharp incline from the saddle to the rollerbridge/tunomatic bridge but prefer my saddle as low as possible for the reasons you stated. At the end of the day, what counts is what works & that always comes first.
here here !
Thx for sharing, my guitar tech had mentioned this to me the last time I did a fret job on my 61 reissue SG...definitely makes a feel difference!
Good video on a subject often overlooked by the masses. I just recently began to experiment with some of mine and I noticed the exact differences you mention. I was really surprised. And if you play Eb tuning you see a BIG difference. At least I did.
Overwrapping will also relieve some of the stress on the bridge. Tune-a-matic bridges often begin to collapse after time and one way to prevent this is to overwrap just as described here. I used an aftermarket stop tailpiece and cut string guide slots up and around the back and top, then polished them to a mirror finish to prevent string breakage and it's been good to go ever since. The original STP lives in the case now.
If you want to have a softer break angle simply raise the tail piece and add a shim washer to make up the distance of the raised post. Now you can tighten the tail piece fully down tight and still have the gentle break angle. There is no need to muck up the tail piece with over wrapping the strings.
Just don't buy a gibson in the first place. when you spend 2500 to 4000 dollars you shouldn't have these problems.
Nah...'Gibson bashing' as you call it, is fully justified. I have seen several 2000-3500 instruments suffer some of the same problems as a 200 dollar guitar, that's inexcusable and can't be explained away as 'nobody's perfect. I've seen unlevel frets and twisted necks on more gibson guitars than there should be. The fact is, they were bought out by a company who treats the Gibson name as an afterthought.
Also, the Gibson design on a les paul is flawed, but corrections are never well received by the 'traditionalists'. The neck angle has to be corrected, or use a scarf joint (which doesn't affect tone in any way), so the headstocks don't break so easily. THey have this impressive 'plek' machine, but if you think every guitar is put on this, you're fooling yourself. They are pretty much stuck with the trademark headstock with the weird string angles that cause tuning problems...the bottom line is...keep the old design to please your base, take shortcuts in production...but don't charge a price like its a perfect hand made instrument.
Buy an epiphone 60s tribute that comes with Gibson 57 pickups and switchcraft components for 699...or wait until they clear them out with a case for 450 like I got mine. Be happy.
In all fairness, look at some of my comments on here, I don't generally bash them. I have a friend with a music store...the number of quality control problems coming out of Gibson are ridiculous for guitars in this price range. He has to send a lot back.
I was speaking of Gibson in general, in response to the OP. I wasn't necessarily referring to the specifics of the video.
Krelbar, you sound like someone who doesn't know enough about guitars to find a Gibson on the used market for way less than sticker. Your friend works at a music store so don't you think your mindset is swayed? You can continue to be the Gibson snob type but until you buy a used Gibson and tailor it to your playing style, you probably shouldn't talk out your ass
Very informative video man..........thanks for doing this! Keep on rocking in the free world!
Wow!! I didn't know about that retaining wire rattle until watching this video and I think that's what a mysterious rattling has been on my SG! Awesome
I make custom washers for my guitars so you can tighten the tailpiece down tight. A machinist could easily make you you a custom set to your specs.If you look around hardware stores you can find some decent washers of various thicknesses and can find a combination that will work.
Lets be clear about something. Top wrapping, standard wrapping, or bottom wrapping (which no one does), will effect your attack and how percussive it is. One reason a lot of Fenders are more snappy is not just the single coil pups, but the break angle behind the saddle (flat top and bolt neck also contribute). These Fenders are STRING THROUGH BODY, so extremely high break angle at the bridge, even on a floating trem. It contributes A LOT to the plucky attack. There is also a lot more string length behind the bridge. It is similar in feel to if you bottom-wrapped your Gibson. Also, people have been known to top wrap to clear the back of the Nashville bridge. This is completely unneccesary and if you top wrap, you should only do it to soften the attack or loosen the playing feel. I encourage you to experiment with all 3 (top,standard, bottom) and to see how it feels when you wrap the low strings standard and the high strings top wrapped, because your low strings are looser tension than your high strings. IMO, this guy is not covering the subject nearly in depth enough to be making videos on it.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.
Dude you've help me a lot! Thanks for the tips. 👊
You have to keep the string from resting on the back edge of the bridge otherwise you lose some tone and sustain. This happened on my high E. You need to reduce the break angle so this does not happen. You should be able to slide a piece of paper between the string and bridge. Doing this will give you max tone and playability
Penny Packer I was having same problem with high E string touching the body of the bridge . Took to guitar center and they lowered that side of bridge a little which fixed that problem. Now my high E string has a little buzzing so I’m wondering if I should raise that side of bridge back up and raise the stop bar tail piece or wrap strings over the stop bar ?
Dam right !
When Gibson first released the Les Paul with the stop tai. In the catalog they show pic's of the Les Paul top wrapped but also have a pic with the strings going straight through. So I think Les Paul had designed it to work either way. So it has always been up to the player to top wrap or not. I am like you I have some guitars that seem to work better top wrapped and some that seem to work better with the strings going straight through the stop tail. Great video.
I set mine up according to the gibson specs and had no choice but to wrap...works great...
I took my guitar to a Luther and had the Luther file in for the strings for top wrap on my led Paul along with other work. Guitar has become a work of art and just about pays itself. I had this done on my 96 les paul 6 weeks after I bought it in 96.
I top wrap every set of strings. I play lead which I personally think is a huge element when considering top wrapping. If you're someone who hits a lot of bends often then its so comfortable. My gold top stays in tune wonderfully despite all these mathematics nutballs dogging it. You're talking about the tiniest amount of change, most people wont recognize, seasoned guitarist wont even notice. Try it out for one set of string if you play lead it wont fuck up your bridge after one try. I swear i get better sustain now also. who knows man. theres only one true rule to music, if it sounds good, it is good.
Absolutely I agree 100%
The proper string angle between the bridge and tailstop is where the low E and High E strings angle down but don't hit the back side of the bridge. You want them just off the rear of the bridge. You don't want the strings resting on the back of the bridge or you're then causing 2 break angles and other issues. Seen a boatload of guitars when the tailpiece is screwed down all the way and the strings are resting on the back of the bridge.
I have a Firebird that is set up nice but the bridge is pretty high off the body and to maintain the proper angle to the tailpiece the tailpiece in turn has to high off the body so for that guitar it makes sense to wrap because of the issues mentioned in this video for the tailpiece being elevated. My Les Pauls and other similar guitars are not wrapped.
Thanks for the advice. I have one LP that I never really liked but could never figure out why so it has become my guinea pig. Never thought of top wrapping but its worth a try.
Excellent topic ! Interesting point of view ! Thanks for posting ! :)
Fake
I found that when i tightened my bridge i had a lot more sustain..
I top wrap....when you raise the tailpiece, the tailpiece screws sit high and for me they dig into my wrist as I rest the heal of my hand on the bridge as an anchor point.
Just my preference
Good stuff to know and yes I have a great Les Paul that I just picked up that is a perfect candidate for top wrap.... it's not too stiff but is just like the one you top wrapped,has quite the break angle Next set of string's it's going TW....wanted to check out the pros and cons first Pretty much knew but wanted validation Thanks man good demo 👍
I always wondered about this. Good video, thanks
During an over-wrap set-up, putting the ball end of an old string on the new string as it is being slid into the front of the Stop-Tail will reduce string breakage. And to the author of the video:Anyone that will not buy an 'SG' or thinks over-wrapping reduces the 'SG's value in any way, doesn't deserve the guitar and I wouldn't sell it to that person. NO WAY !
Simple solution: buy another tailpiece and top wrap with it, save the original "just in case". Although I wouldn't sell my 2017 Standard anyway, so moot point.
Tried it on my SG and could tell no difference in sound or feel. But it confuses people that are unfamiliar with it, so that's enough to keep it. That and I don't see why it needs changed if there is no difference.
I started tailwrapping years ago when I was having string breakage on high E, B, and G at the bridge. I assumed it was from the steep angle with the tail piece all the way down on the body. Recently, I had a few high E's break while restringing., so just raised the tailpiece and go through now. Haven't really noticed any substantial change in sustain or playability. Just my experience. Thanks for the video!
Small rubber bands holding the intonation screws together and feeding a piece of rubber band through the saddle with the screw works
I just changed my strings on the LP, but next week I'm gonna try this when I change them again. My luthier set the axe up with the TP tight to the body. It does give more sustain because of more body contact area, especially with the old vintage. But the angle is very steep, like 30 degrees. So I can keep it screwed down all the way, but reduce the angle. And probably reduce risk of string breakage as well. Been playing over 45 yrs, and never tried this yet!
I dont hear a difference but I feel a difference. top wrap feels more slinky imho.
peace
Ever notice how certain topics make the guitar world split down the middle and turn and attack the opposing side?
Do a tonewood video lol!!!!
The reason for the split is that guitar players think they understand the guitar, but 99% have no idea how it works. If you want to know how it works, ask the people who build them.
Its called "opinion wars"
It's called "physics"; some people understand physics and some do not.
@@Rick-uu5yo the "physics of it is, the higher that tail pc the more lateral stress on its sleeves in the wood..however...they can handle it
@@johncartelli Opinions are subjective; physics is not.
This was a good video. It gives good sound information regarding string angle. Sure you could just raise the tail piece but in some cases that isnt always possible. I have seen some pretty strange tail piece setups and you can run into many different reasons it wouldn't be as simple as raising the tail piece. Besides, for some, top wrapping their strings like Billy Gibbon's is enough motivation.
Good explanation. I don't top wrap as I'm a heavy hitter and I like a tighter thrashy sound so regular no wrapping gives me more stability. BUT I plan on making one of my guitars top wrapped for solos because using cobalt strings makes for a bitch to bend notes. So I'm putting together a vibey guitar with bumble bees and pickups that have sweet spots for solos. It's a good option for the studio IMO.
I thought the original train of thought was a screwed down tail piece with a top wrap improved sustain. I'm sure someone has disproved that by now, but if it's good enough for Duane Allman, It's good enough for me.
Corey Jones I was just about to write the exact same thing.
A better tip is, cut the ball off old strings and put the string through that, then run it through the bridge and you wont have a risk of cutting your hand where the string bends on the bridge when top wrapping
Thanks for the tips!
I did notice my Les Paul has a more severe angle between tailpiece and saddle than my other guitars, maybe that's why I've noticed an increase of string breakage. Not a huge increase, just more. The .010s are definitely not stiff on either the SG or Les Paul, however.
Tailpiece top wrapping (and string angling in general if not top wrapping) can have a - huge - effect on tone. It moves the tonal properties of an instrument because of the strings angle and eventual reduction or increase of string pulling power in a guitar. I transformed a super bright Les Paul to a fat sounding one with a small trade-off on the snappy attack of the strings (less tension, less snappy attack, more mahogany). Glad I didn't sell it before trying all the possibilities. Except the action issues it definitely affects tone.
Laregly the placebo effect. You think it feels "softer" and in your mind it does. From an engineering point of view it cannot make a difference at all. The only way a string will feel softer is if it is under less tension, which is why Iommi started tuning his guitars flat after his accident. But a given thickness of string of a given length brough to a given pitch will have the identical tension regardless of the break angle at either the nut or bridge. If its softer, its looser, and therefore tuned flatter. Its the only way it works. There is no magic to top-wrapping
Actually if your guitar playing technique involves bending, overlap does make a difference on tension. At a sharp breakpoint the string from that shorter point to the tuner is absorbing the majority of stretch of the string. A far less severe break point the string is absorbing the stretch with less resistance the full length if the string to the tail piece. Unfortunately tuning does play a factor in this set up because the string must return to it's original stretch point after being stretched by the bend to stay in tune perfectly. There is less stability of the string because of this fact.
@@jessegaronband
Your an idiot.
You dont have even a basic understanding of mechanical physics.
The dude is right, your wrong. Period.
So what happens with string-thru bodies?
2 different break angles, one of them being 90'.
By your logic, you wouldn't even be able to bend the strings, right?
Its hard to believe you guys on here with your self taught science are even capable of stringing a guitar, let alone servicing them.
I think you are correct for the most part. I think you get better sustain if the post screws are tight against a washer that is tight against the body. Some of the hardware, especially the import stuff has sloppy fit between the threads, bridge and tailpiece. i will wrap the bridge studs with teflon tape that seems to take away any rattle. I wrap them both, out of habit, they don't feel so cluncky. I've seen a few with the threads so sloppy that the post actually have a noticeable lean.
@@jessegaronband
Always great to hear from a successful musician like you only-
I checked out you videos, and i am impressed!
Speedways?
Like the empty one you played in?
What was it, 2 weeks before the race?
I love that "stadium" you play in on your video.
Looks more like a your basement.
I guess you and everyone you know forgot the camera for the "big" stadium show.
And those killer riffs you lay down- wow!
Thats about second year level, for most of my students.
What next?
You going to tell me your stool sample is better than mine?
And the witticism!
I mean, my parents have been dead for 20 years, and didn't have a basement, but the rest was hilarious.
But ill tell ya, the best part of being successful is, I dont have to brag about it, I live it.
As far as Bonamossa(correct spelling,by the way), and Gibbons are concerned, they can do as they please, just as anybody.
Everybody has habits, and ways of doing things because of how they learned, or what they perceive, but that does not make them right.
Physics does not lie my friend, and you can argue until your fingers fall off, and you will still be wrong.
@@edgeofeternity101 This is one reason I prefer a les paul bridge to a stratocaster. I have to screw 5 springs all the way down on a strat and lock down the tremolo with a block of wood, it'll never get the sustain and tone of the les paul with p90s.
Look.... You buy another Gibson brand tailpiece for $19.95, use it to experiment weather you like top-wrapping. If it's not you're bag, and you want to put it back (unmolested) to original, PRESTO! Next subject....
My thoughts exactly.
Why buy anorher . Cant he just top wrap next string change
@@Allguitarinfo 👆🏻READ AGAIN 👆🏻
Exactly what I did. Still top wrapped but, I have the original stop tail that is perfect.
The early gold tops and juniors that had no separate bridge were top wrapped and the screws on the sides were used to set the string height so they were not cranked all the way down.
You are right! Gibson actually has a much too steep angle at the headstock too. Which is not so easy to fix, but you can get the angle less steep by mounting longer tuners at the end, and then shorter towards the nut. It's a question of hitting that sweetspot between tone and playability. Good luck.
Some of us prefer the toilet tissue to come from the top (front) and others from the rear (back...) physics anyone.
You can visually find the end easier when it comes from the top (front). This "wrapping" thing is bullshit tho.
Definitely the top . When pulling cable you always pull from the top!
And Randy doesn't use it at all
@@pickettmandi ......the back eliminates the wasted space AND allows you to see how much paper's left.
@@ronyeahright9536 it's easier to rip when it comes from the back though
Actually that tail piece started out its life as a guitar bridge. Look at early Gibson Les Paul Jr.'s that's all their was. Strings wrapped over and that was it. The bridge (tail piece) was angled to compensate for intonation. Later a Al in one bridge/tail piece was designed with saddles for setting the intonation.
There's a reason the tailpiece-as-bridge got replaced by the tailpiece and separate bridge. it was a bad design and impossible to tune accurately.
@@fusermonkey thats got nothing to do with if top wrap is better or not, that was to get an adjustable bridge for better intonation
@@johncartelli Err, I think that's what I said?
@@fusermonkey The context of the video and and the original comment makes your comment sound like you were disagreeing with Gumby and saying that it was replaced because top wrapping was "a bad design." Johncartelli was merely remarking that the separate bridge was to fix intonation, and had little to nothing to do with whether top wrapping was better or worse with the additional bridge.
I started top wrapping the strings on my 2015 SG and screwing the tail down tight. Still plenty of relief over the bridge and since then it holds tune really well. It was a dog for tuning, used to drift off and I was worried I had a bad neck. My cheap Squire affinity for £185 that just lays around the house, kicked and chipped and sons hammer it and never drifts off. Screw down the tail and over wrap was my solution.
Great video and your demo explains why. Sold
It also makes the string tension feel looser & a lot more bend capability and stay in tune. Feels great this way.
I have guitars strung both ways, but love the feel of them this way. Horses for courses though.
Over the years, I have played Fender Strats or Strat style guitars - so when I got a Harley Benton 335 style the bridge, tail and pickups were a new experience.
I recall looking into tailpiece heights on Gibson style guitars and reading that you should try to match the string angle on the bridge with the angle on the headstock.
Doing that by wrap over or raising the tailpiece reduces tension on the strings and makes bending much easier with little on no effect to the tone.
Given the choice of easier bend or string tone, I'd go for the bend option, you can always use a heavier gauge set of string to beef up the tone.
Great vid Thanks. I have done this to multiple Les Pauls from a 78 LP pro, 80s Heritage, CS 58,59 reissues etc. To my tattered worn out eardrums due to the 80s metal scene, I hear zero difference. Nada. But that said..... It really looks cool and like most I am really susceptible to the placebo effect. So if Ed Van Halen says do not paint under the pickups so they can breath. If Zakk Wylde says top wrap must be true. So if nothing else when someone ask you can tell them a good story about why you top wrap them. The other mechanical stress/angles etc makes sense.
When you've gone from straight through to top wrapping or vice versa, has anyone noticed intonation or neck relief changes? Or, has this been relatively minor?
Yes. Check it yourself. Shallower break angle combined with longer total string length in play = less tension on truss, which could impact the overall neck relief. You should always balance the neck relief/truss tension with whatever setup you have going at any time. Every time.
Great info details , thank you so much
I personally do this to every guitars I set up in my shop... I read in a guitar set up book once all the things you mentiones as well as it inproving the overtones and harmonics. I really do think this makes a difference for the better. The other thing I do is take my nut slotting files and abrazive cord to make a little guaged slot without burs to make a nicer place for the string to wrap around without risking string breakages at the wrap around point.
@ The Rockin' Donkey, Here's what I've noticed, nothing scientific, although it is physics at play.
From what I've felt during playing, yes, having the tailpiece tight to the body will increase the coupling effect of the threaded studs that thread into the bushings. But, having said that, I think with wraparound bridges, that have saddles, or ones that don't have saddles, you can raise the bridge to a certain degree for action, and you probably won't notice any loss in sustain. But we're not just talking about "sustain" - as in the DURATION of notes, fretted or open, single notes, and chords, it also affects the AMPLITUDE of the plucked, strummed string(s), and how much energy is transferred into them, allowing them to produce the elliptical effect much easier.
Again, the headstock angle plays a huge role, as does the string's ability to glide easily through the nut slots. If you've ever played an American Standard Telecaster, or Strat, the "good ones" seem to be able to transfer string energy very easily and produce the elliptical effect. SEE: th-cam.com/video/RRbmYQvWoK8/w-d-xo.html fast forward to 1:40 on the timeline, and listen until 1:55. - Hear that big A chord he lands on at 1:53?
Look at the strings against the black pickguard, and play that portion (1:50-1:55 over a few times) again, at 1:53 look at the strings. See how they almost strobe? And of course, the longer Fender scale length with 9 guage strings feels completely different that 9 guage strings on a Gibson.
To me, that's how Gibson's should behave. And I think part of why Tele's, Strats, some Kramers etc can do that, is because they have very straight headstock angles, (not too much downward pressure from the strings on the nut), And, their bridges are parallel with the guitar top, combined with a very short run of string over the saddle - similar to a wraparound on a Gibson. SEE: www.realvintage.it/archivio/prs87bridge.jpg and www.mannmadeusa.com/wp-content/uploads/1966-Gibson-SG-Jr.jpg - see how the string exits the rear hole in the wraparound bridge, and then almost immediately meets the center of the saddles? This = little to no break angle, a very straight direct path to the nut.
Personally, I think the Gibson headstock angle of 17 degrees is totally unnecessary and absurd. The tail-piece and ABR, tuneomatic bridge is a dumb idea too. It's almost as if they exist so that Gibson doesn't have to follow a more strict guideline as to how straight they neck joints are. Therefore, with a TP and bridge, they can compensate for those irregular neck angles. If they made all of their guitar neck joints STRAIGHT, like a Gibson Firebird, you could use a much simpler bridge. Look at the Telecaster, PRS, Godin guitars, and some of the Collings guitars, - cases in point.
What SD pickup is on the les paul? I have a les paul classic and my super '57 pickup is too bright is too bright, but i like the uncovered zebra pickups!
My '61 zebra coils sound spectacular. Very clean, no unwanted noise, not too bright (I prefer dark tones).
Aside from mucking up the tailpiece, wrapping the strings over it can cause the high E string to pop out of the bridge saddle with very aggressive bends, the extra steep angle of the normal routing helps prevent that.
Duane Allman top wrapped his strings. 👍
Duane was irrelevant
The Top Wrapping thing started when someone saw their Gtr hero do it.
It's Gtr Voodo...and if you believe it, then it's good.
Tho comparing the crappy hardware on a newer Epi isn't a fair comparison.
Once the Gtr is up to pitch, nothings going to move besides possibly the bridge saddles.
Just raise the STOP TP so no strings hit the backside of the bridge (especially on a NASH TOM).
Put a Callaham ABR-1 and STOP TP on it and enjoy much more stability and improved definition...:-)
I did this on a 2016 Les Paul Studio, and there was so much buzzing,ICFBI, So I had to go back to under wrapping w/jacked up Stop-Tail to avoid strings hitting the back of the bridge-plate.Then I got a Roller-Bridge and was able to crank the Stop-Tail all the way down to the guitar body, it eliminated all BUZZZING and no strings hitting the Bridge plate.....Glad I got a roller-bridge, it solved multiple problems.
It sounds like you have figured out why PRS guitars have their bridges where the strings are wrapped around the TOP of the bridge instead of straight through. I have been stringing MY guitars (Les Pauls) this way for years now just for that reason. The string resonance when strung over the bridge is simply phenomenal with sustain for EVER. Not sure of the actual science behind it, but hey...if it works BETTER....USE it!!! Great video, I have been telling other Les Paul players the same thing for years...nice to know that I'm not the only one that figured this out!! Oh, and another modification that I did that you might consider, is that I took a hacksaw and made notches where the strings rest on the bridge, then took a fine file and filed down the rough edges and smoothed out the notches, so that the strings won't slide around on the bridge, I did find that to be a problem, especially when really hard shredding and really hard bends. Trust me...it worked excellent and I suggest that you do the same and pass it on as well.
This isn't the silliest thing I've seen, but it's in the running for the top 10.
@@thehomefront1905 is calling people fat the only insult British people have ? The name of the guy that you just insulted is literally "fartwrangler" why are you taking stuff so seriously
Haha!! That was a pretty hilarious comment! To come out of the gates with, the face slapping comment. Haha!! LMAO
Top wrapping on these tailpieces was the original way Gibson did it. The 54 LP Goldtop had this tailpiece angled for intonation and top wrapped with no bridge. The 56 Goldtop was through strung and introduced the tunomatic bridge. Both used P90 pups. The PAF Humbuckers came in around 56/57.
You are correct. The earlier Les Pauls did not have a tune-o-matic. I really like the single top-wrapped tailpiece on PRS Singlecut guitars. It is very comfortable, and I have no intonation problems with it.
Got a les Paul copy has rap around bridge works great p90
Thank you! I actually had my tail piece too tight and that was causing this rattle i couldnt figure out, and when i raised the tail piece the rattle is gone! dont know why but I did have it tight all the way down and the rattle was driving me crazy!
thats why the adjustments are there ,no need to top rap its all in the adjustments,but what ever works for you ,cool video
If you like the tone do it. It's an old trick used by many and is totally subjective.
Why argue? Spend that energy on doing something for yourself or others.
In my personal experience top wrapping the strings or raising the stopbar puts a less tension on the strings and in turn makes it easier to bend the strings and makes it a bit more playable you could say however when you put the stopbar all the way down to the body i have noticed you do get more tone! It does put the strings under more tension though and bends an such aren't as easy. I guess its all personal preference in the end. Experiment with different things and see what works best for you. Thanks good video!
From a physics point of view the strings pulling from the top of the bridge would put more strain on the anchoring pins by puling them from a higher position than the design intended and could end up damaging the guitar. Think of the bridge pins as levers and the strings as pulling them. The longer the lever the greater the force applied.
Yeah i always thought that too but i have top wrapped once or twice in the past one time i did it was a necessity to properly setup the guitar & get rid of some fret buzz!.. & then like the other two or so times that i did it! i mostly kinda just did it out of a personal preference thing! & basically what felt better playing wise to me at that time!... but! anyways! to my whole main point! is that!.. i think in atleast 97.5% of cases the guitar should really hold-up relatively fine! as long as you keep reasonable gauge strings on there like 11's or under & if you don't do/invent some crazy alternate tuning that involves something out there like say tightening every single last string as absolutely as tight you possibly can turn them then playing hard & leaving the guitar that particular way for long extended periods of time!... but yeah! i always wondered the same exact things you said in your original comment aswell! especially before i ever top-wrapped strings on a tailpeice before!... ✌😉
@David Wang worked for me at the time on the particular guitar i had at the time!
Not only can there be "wiggle" on the tailpiece......the higher the tailpiece is it is more likely to act like a pry bar and pull the two threaded sleeves out of the body....especially on cheap guitars
Yes. Good point.
Just use the 2 big screws on the tailpiece and you're done. They are meant for that
Hey here's a really freaky idea. Watch the video, it explains why to keep the tailpiece as low to the body as possible. Personally, I've had this opinion for thirty years but it's a mystery to you 'cause you didn't watch the video eh ? I bet you interrupt people too.
Epi, Joe Walsh agrees with you, He says he likes the tailpeice in direct contact with the body.
@@Skinny_Karlos guess its true. Cant teach an old dog new tricks 😂😂 oh well 💁 half this shit is all in your head.. If half the people in search of this mystical perfect tone just played more. Theyd have it. Im rlly just messing. If yoy like top wrapping. Kudos. Everyone has their own style and sound. Everyone wants to sound like someone else and never find their own perfect tond
@@patrickrosington1174 Yeah, I guess I just am an 'old dog' and need good and valid reasoning to change. I'm not blinded or blinkered and 'can' change if there's a reason to.
Ahh, what the hell. When was this anyway?.....ha ha. Yeah top wrap, don't top wrap ahh who cares. Just play the thing and it'll sound better than if you watch 'youtube' all day & don't practice eh?
Raising the tailpiece adds more stress to the barrel inserts and therefore the body.. More so on thin sg bodies.🎸🎸😎😎
For the gibson Sg, i would swap out the origional tail piece, keep it stored away, and use the replacement top wrapped. This way, you wont lose value because the origional parts are still pristine! I did this with a 1968 reissue and the guitar is now awesome and easy to play!
Smartest thing you can do if you're curious, and you have the original saved for resale or sentimental value. A tail piece is cheap to replace but some don't think before they act and go and ruin the original.
There are thick washers (about 1/4”) available online that will allow you to lock the tailpiece down and correct that angle without top wrapping. Some say it improves sustain or “playability” I can’t say yay or nay on that one. If I were to guess...I’d say...”well...maybe”.
"Try wrapping your strings over the tail piece like I do.... on One Third of my guitars!"
“Too steep of an angle accounts for a stiffer feeling guitar”- my ass! The only thing inferior about the steep angle is that it puts more strain on the string causing them to break more easily. It doesn’t affect the tone or feel whatsoever.
I've seen the steep angle cause the Tune-O-Matic to flatten/cave in, causing fret-string buzz, so I wouldn't say "the only thing". Perhaps your assertion is better worded as "the main thing", since the flatten/caving issue seems only to be on the vintage stuff. I think modern metallurgy is making stronger bridges now.
@@marka.200 don't know, my 60 yo tuna-matic is has been set low for max angle and done fine for well 40 years. I tried up up for a flatter angle but I was pulling the strings sideways across the bridge top - hope that made sense
Exactly. If you’re tuned to pitch, how could the string feel any more or less slinky? The tension is the same
@@mab8485 tuning to pitch has nothing to do with string tension, scale length is a bigger factor.
What I’m trying to understand is how does one desire bridge height?
I see giving a slight forward bow in the neck provides enough rise in the neck for no buzz and enough string vibration.
But I’m assuming your neck relief is obviously connected to the height of the bridge. And the bridge can also raise the action on its own.
So how does one know when the bridge is the right height? I don’t see people mention this
top wrapper here. I read that gibson used to string new guitars both ways in the 1950s. almost like it depended on who was working that day. top wrapping has a comfort component as well it just feels so good to lay your palm over the smooth top wrapped bridge. especially after a few decades of tearing your hand up on some of the rather crude fender strat bridges. peace
I always carefully and slowly file away any sharp edges that cause me pain. It's something a real good Luther knows about and will do for you.
Just an update to my last post - I took a hacksaw and made notches into the tail piece of my guitar (LTD EC-401FM and LTD EC-10 in my case) and then took a Dremel tool with various widths of grinding wheels to compensate for the different string gauges/widths to make the notches more smooth and even...and you cannot imagine the difference in tone, sound, and sustain that was achieved by doing this. I would recommend to anyone that has the tools, time and patience to DO THIS MOD!!! It makes a TON of difference!!! Now that I have modded my Les Paul style guitars tail pieces in this manner, it is the ONLY way to go...PERIOD!! Any more guitars that I get, I will DEFINITELY be doing this mod. It is one mod that is damn well worth the time and effort...great sound, tone, intonation...plus it lessens the string tension and you can really get those string bends effortlessly. Best mod I have ever done to my guitars, hands down!!!
A roller bridge beats the standard ones ;)
Me and science disagree. Pitch is a function of string length, string diameter and tension. If a string is tuned to a certain pitch it will achieve that pitch at a given tension. String length, string diameter and string tension are all fixed values for a given pitch. you cannot change any of these and still get the same pitch. It's mathematically impossible. String angle between saddle and tail piece cannot change to tension or feel.
... and yet it does. I explained it in detail in the video. It has nothing to do with pitch, or string diameter, or string length. It only has to do with how much contact the string has with the saddles. One way to find out that it makes a difference is to actually try it.
??? Capos go between the frets.
No, you have your physics wrong or you aren't explaining what you mean. Take a Fender P bass, which I have here and a Gibson EBO shortscale, which I also own. Now, they are tuned to the came pitch exactly. The shortscale Gibson is so easy to play and use finger vibrato and the strings don't have anything like the tension that the P bass has. Imagine putting Baritone B-b strings on a normal guitar. You tune them to the right pitch but because the length is shorter the strings are all floppy. It is still the same pitch. There is NOT a fixed tension value for a given pitch. Any guitar/bass player knows this without having a physics degree.
Extra string length behind the nut and bridge most definately also make a difference.
It's called physics.
I noticed at 2:11, the tailpiece is sitting not level to the guitar body, and tilting slightly upwards. Wonder if that changes the dynamics of the guitar.
I notice this is the problem on my Tribute LP....have been meaning to do this...thanks for the info. :)
I feel that doing this makes the strings easier to bend, if done correctly.
Plus I like doing things that aren't standard.
Correct. But only if you polish the saddle slots to allow sliding strings during bending
jrozanec1 So if you top wrap and lubricate the tailpiece it'll be easier to bend?
Don't do it. I bought an SG for a song used because some idiot did this and it wouldn't tune and the store though something was wrong with it. I changed the strings when I got it home and it's killer
It was more likely old strings that were causing the tuning problems.
No This is a joke some seasoned guitarists play on newbies telling them to do it. Like telling people to put vodka in their Neti Pot
Good enough for Joe Bonamassa and Billy Gibbons....should be good enough for you. Like anything that requires a certain feel..either you like it or you don't. It's not wrong to have it setup the way how you like it to feel.
If you need a guitar more sustained try heavier strings or flat wound. It makes a huge diff. I've been at it 40 years too and played a lot of guitars
So why is your way the only/right way? playing a guitar is about feel....Joe Bonamassa is doing it wrong? lol. Your childish argument is hilarious! Top wrapping gives you a slinkier feel while playing with heavier gauged strings etc etc
Why do I like playing Les Pauls and others strats? Am I wrong to prefer a Les Paul? Who cares what other people do...do what you like....what feels good and sounds good to you BUT don't tell others not to do it because you personally don't like it. You should encourage people to try different things that may help them feel the instrument better.....heck Gibby uses custom 7's I believe...TOP wrapped. I couldn't play that guitar but Gibby sure has no issues with it! I guess Billy Gibbons has no clue what he's doing and is wrong...lol, grow up Linda!
If I'm not mistaken, Ted McCarty stated in Robb Lawrence's 'Les Paul' book that the stop tailpiece was indeed designed for top wrapping.
I top-wrap mine but I also take that tune-o-matic bridge off and flip it around with the screws aiming toward the rear and used graph tech saddles.
The ONLY determining factor in determining tension on a given string at a given pitch is scale length. You can top wrap until you're blue in the face and it doesn't change a thing. This is hocus pocus crap. Physics people.
No one is saying it changes the actual tension of the strings. Did you watch the video?
Definitely something wrong with it if it meters that low.
The difference is minimal but the overall string length is shorter making them slightly more slinky and also making the attack not quite as sharp.
@@marcavus1 I believe the string length is the same. From saddle to nut is the part of the string that is relevant. That is unless I'm misunderstanding you.
I had to add my 2 cents. I've gone back and forth a few times on an SG standard that I love, top wrapping, then back to strings through the back as it was stock. What I've noticed, (and the guy in the video didn't go into this).. but it's not only the break angle of the strings from the TP to the saddles that's affected if you top wrap, or wrap through the back end like Gibson does from factory. It's also the string LENGTH between the saddle slot to the anchor point of the TP that can affect the feel, and travel of a string.
If you've ever played a guitar with a PRS, Pigtail, or MannMade bridge that can be intonated, like this one:
www.mannmadeusa.com/wp-content/uploads/StopTail-10.jpg the distance of the string exiting the the hole in the bridge - TO the saddle is considerably shorter, and that enables the string to have more... give, or springiness to it, less stiff. So much in fact, that guitars with these bridges, that are setup with 10 guage strings can sometimes feel and play more like 9's. They just seem to have more give and springiness to them, and you get that oscillating effect in the strings really easily on those guitars for some reason.
That "unspoken" string length in between the saddles and the TP, have as much of an effect on feel as the difference in headstock angles - more VS less break angle etc, affects feel and "give" in the strings.
I've found that cinching the TP all the way down and top wrapping makes the string not only slinkier, but since the TP is coupled tightly to the body's top, you get more of a SNAP in the strings - more focus and immediacy. Try adjusting the bridge and TP in the standard way, (strings through back of TP to bridge - no top wrap,) to mimic the feel of top wrapping - and to achieve a similar break angle and feel of top wrapping.
By the time you get close to the same angle as the top wrap method, the strings have lost that "SNAP", and they start to feel rubber bandy. The sustain doesn't feel the same, the strings seem to excite more slowly, like they've lost some of that crispness. That's that I've noticed anyway.
Yes.
I don't use a tunomatic, but I'm curious. does getting the tailpiece closer to the body give you better sustain, or is that not a factor?
MJ Bell
The Rockin' Donkey Ehh, not considerably. It's like an old wives tale. But you get more play out of your strings in my opinion.
Marc Lee thank you for answering my question.
What about deadning the string? My Schecter bass VI went dead when I put it back to bass strings. I thought & thought about it, looked at what the heck is killing low E. After a week of no sleep it just dawned on me to try raising the angel on the bridge. Well actually what happened, was I snapped high E, put another on, put pressure on the saddle to sit it in & the new one snapped. Thats when it all suddenly hit me. So the bridge is now higher, which seems to improve the brightness of low E back, but im still getting funky piano overtones, despite lowering the pickups. Maybe I should raise the bridge even more? Theres enough clearance on the angle from saddle to bridge, so strings arent hitting, so now im unsure.
Good video. Thanks for the info.
Top-wrap makes a huge improvement in sustain and intonation. When I top-wrapped my (Gibson) Les Paul and ES-335 (the the stop tailpiece screwed all the way down) I was amazed at the difference. If you actually play the damn thing, the finish is going to get messed up anyway, so just be careful when you change the strings. I have the retainer wire problem with my Les Paul, but as loud as I play, well . . . who can tell?
I totally agree. My Les Paul sustains like it never did before.
I learned how to set up my Les Paul, and had finally gotten my action JUST RIGHT, until I foolishly jumped on this bandwagon. Not only that, it looked stupid too.
you could've just raised the tailpiece to try if it suits you
thanx for youy advice
i'm gonna try to level up the tailpiece of my LP
the angle is very steep
Perfect! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and for all the comments. I used a chrome washer (thicker than a standard washer and looks like it should be there) under the tailpiece so that I could cinch it down tight. Without the washer, the string angle was great enough that the strings touched the rear of the bridge! Go Gibson! My Epi's are fine.....
why not just purchase a Graph Tech Resomax tail piece designed for top wrapping strings ? keep the original for resale !
I got one for my SG about three months ago and was astounded how much better my midrange got. The only downside is that it's just about impossible to adjust the bridge height with full string tension. with those smooth wheels.
record a B4 and after... i bet $$ anybody listening wouldn't evn be able to tell the diff' :)
The attack is softer with top wrap but you are correct people might not notice in a youtube vid. The player will notice. Feels looser.
Interesting topic. Thanks for posting.
I will raise the tailpiece just enough to get the strings above the back of the bridge so that it isn't brought to premature collapse as Gibson bridges can be but it seems to me that the more tension there is pushing down on the saddles the better the sustain and the better the tone will be so no top wrapping for me I'm afraid. I have never had problems with extraneous vibrations on a well set-up guitar
Hi, anyone have any comments on the problem with the SG's where the pick ups are at a different angle to the strings? This makes the back coil of each pick a lot lower from the strings than the front coil. If you watch the video at 5:00 you can clearly see what I am talking about. It is a common problem with the new SG's that don't have the pick up rings . I've heard of wedging the pick ups in place or taking the pick guard off and shimming the pick ups. anyone have any other solutions?
Oh no, not again. This guy believes in "Tone Wood" too. Run run run away.
Looks like you're another of those 438 fools who didn't bother to watch the video through. It explains (with visuals) how and why top wrapping works. I personally don't use it top wrapping, but this video is great. Instead of saying idiotic things, give your opinion on Top Wrapping. If you can't, move on.
Top wrap my SG 5 years. Nicer highs.
Good clear explanation... subbed...
I too like top wrapping around the TP. The only problem I had once (with some lower price econo strings) was the 3rd/G string frayed, where it made at the approximate 90 degree bend upwards at the rear hole of the TP. The frayed wire stabbed me in the palm. I chamfered and polished the upper rims of the holes, and with all string sets going forward, so far so good.
I have done both ways for years, and there is no difference either way you do it, it's all in your head.
I do not like the kink you put in the string while top wrapping, and the tension of a string has to be the same between the bridge and nut to make the note, say 17 ft lbs of tension, it's going to feel the same no matter which way you do it.
Like i said, it's all in your head, just because someone said it makes a difference. I need to see the scientific proof.
Thank you. This has never made any sense to me. The strings are going to have same tension regardless of the angle behind the bridge unless you somehow increase the scale length
A shallower angle from bridge saddle to tailpiece reduces tension, so easier string bending but less sustain. A sharper angle increases sustain but makes string bending a little harder. It's a trade off, I've tried both ways and stick with tailpiece all the way down and no wraparound. Eventually you build up finger strength to do the string bends.
Robert Dunn It can't physically change the tension in the playing length of the string. For the same gauge string with the same scale length to be in tune it must be at the same tension. So the only way that the playing length of the string is at a lower tension is if you're out of tune.
What does happen though is that a greater break angle over the bridge increases the downward pressure over the saddles (the string tension in the section between stoptail and bridge will be greater) and this increases the friction. This means the string moves less easily over the saddle and therefore moves less easily when string bending etc, which makes the strings feel stiffer when employing this technique. I don't believe that the cause is anything to do with contact area as the video poster suggests as the saddles are essentially knife-edge (or near to) so the contact area on the saddle doesn't materially change depending on string angle over the bridge (and anyway, friction isn't dependent on contact area only coefficient of friction between the surfaces and the force acting). It is the friction effect over the saddle (due to the increased downward force created by the greater break angle) that creates the stiffer feel (when string bending).
@Skully's Woodshed....as a player for 40+ years, every guitar player has an opinion... tomatoe or tomato. This debate has been going on since the introduction of the Nashville tailpiece in the late 50s... One thing is for sure is setup your guitar what feels comfortable for YOU and take other people's opinion with a grain of salt. That's from enough life experience and guitar playing...
Exactly the tension isn't changing between the nut and bridge...this is all BS, like vintage caps.If it did it would change the tuning...people don't think. I stated before here that I used a pressure gauge and pressing on the string with it that's the same amount of pressure regardless of how you string it through the stop piece.