Thanks for watching! What are your thoughts on this, am I hallucinating? If you want to support the channel at no cost to you and you're planning on buying anything (literally anything) from Amazon, Agena, or HPS, please use the links in the description! (Like amzn.to/3hTB5Ne for Amazon)
Hi Cuiv. Since you made this video, have you tested the camera with your guide scope? It would be very interesting to see if it performed better than the 290. Thanks.
Super interesting video mate and really timely too! I've just came up against the limits of my own guide scope setup and had to change things around too, so happy to see that 662 is able to serve as an excellent guider as well as being a great planetary cam as you mentioned! 🙂 Clear skies man!
Hi Cuiv! Greeting from Germany! I think your most important sentence is that if someone has a working setup there is no need to change the camera. From my point of view in case of trouble because of seeing a camera with this sensor could be a solution. But if the current one works well no need to change. I have a ZWO 120MM-Mini for my 8" RC with a ZWO OAG. That works gives me an amazing 0.15 - 0.3 RMS. For my small 70/420 I use a ZWO 120MC-S, so also a color cam with USB3 in a 120mm guidescope with 2x barlow lense. Works amazing too with 0.4 - 0.5 RMS. As a third guiding setup I use a Omegon (also Touptek) 1200b color with a 190mm guidescope on my 6" Newton. This one is also in the 0.5 RMS range. I can clearly see a difference between using Mono or Color guide cameras as the 120MM was used on my small APO earlier giving me slightly better RMS. So my setups are working well. So I won't change anything for the moment. If I will need another guide camera for a new setup the 662 might be an option for me as well. I will depend on the final price in "Everything is artificially made expensive Germany" and if I want to go with my AsiAir or my micro PC (NINA) on that new setup. What I am much more interested in are the dimensions of the Touptek OAG that you have been showing. 10mm Prisma should be a nice upgrade from the 8mm on the ZWO for me.😁I just need to see if it would fit my imaging train without any problems.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek the price on their website looks really good. I also discovered that they have a motorized filter wheel now too. I think I will have to get one of those. I hope they are going to send a sample to you for testing. It is good to see that Touptek also sees astrophotography as something that is worth to spend more effort in development besides the cameras.
Admire your honesty, cant wait for your next video, Also Your video on the ZWO Seestar inspired 4 out of the 5 Astro Junkies , to Purchase one . We have rented a large cottage in the extreme north west of Scotland (bortal 0-1).in November (new moon period) . Many thanks for your overall enthusiasm and inspiration. This will help make us into the "Lazy" Astro Junkies. Just remember that you are now an Honorary Member. xxx
Bortle 0-1 sounds like pure bliss... Enjoy it and enjoy your Seestars! I'm having tremendous fun with mine (in fact, imaging the Pacman nebula with it right now)
Thanks again Cuiv for this interresting video again... Until recently I was using for guiding the standard ZWO OAG (8mm prism) and the ASI290 and it was working… OK… but many time not so much stars and going under 0,9 RMS was just exceptional. I changed for the ASKAR OAG (10mm prism) and the ASI220 (4µm) and the improvement is huge, RMS is now around 0,4 and no problem finding stars at all
Well done!! Glad to see you're using the Askar OAG! Are you using it together with a filter wheel or filter drawer? Or do you insert the filter in their extender tube thingy?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek With a filter drawer. The Askar OAG is really superior! Other OAGs generally have two screws to adjust the height of the prism but this one also has two perpendicular micro screws which make the whole thing completely rigid and monolithic. And in addition to a larger prism the light passthru between the prism and the camera is oval and large which is much more adapted to the shape of the sensor of the ASI220 (or 290). Also the focuseur is really smooth..... I love it 😂
@@patolucas3146 thanks! Which filter drawer do you use? I couldn't find a good way to attach it to my ZWO filter wheel since the camera side isn't threaded...
I use a TS filter drawer connected in M54 to the Askar OAG and M42 to the ASI camer... I dont understand why you cannot connect it to the ZWO wheel? the Askar comes with a bunch of adapters.
I have used a IMX585 based color camera for guiding for a while before I went back to mono. I used the IR pass filter with the 585 and it worked pretty well. The IMX585's bayer filter becomes transparent at bands above 800 nm basically making it a mono camera. The only reason I went back to mono is the IR light pollution in my area from everyone having security cameras which sometimes added noise to my guiding. Yeah it's totally fine guiding with a color camera as even though it has a bayer filter, doesn't seem to reduce accuracy much. I used a cheap SvBony camera for several months before I got my first dedicated guide camera and the results were only a little bit better for the latter. Touptek is finally coming out with updated cameras and a fresh new site that doesn't have drivers from 2021 🙂 Looking forward to what they come out with. Thanks for the video, Clear Skies Cuiv!
Interesting. I've just been researching guide-cameras and ended up with the ASI585MC. It's basically the same FOV/sensor-size as the ASI174MM everybody still keeps recommending for wide-FOV guiding, but without the 1st-gen sensor tech, and at 2.9 microns. At bin1 it's 2x the 174's resolution, and bin2 it's about the same res. I have no idea why ZWO won't put out a mini-version of this, as the recommended ASI220 isn't that much better than the retired ASI290. If IR too much local IR glow is a problem, add an IR filter?
I currently use the 290MM mini from ZWO with an OAG on my newt. I generally have great guiding 0.4 - 0.6 RMS.. HOWEVER, when I shoot specific targets away from the galactic plane (like the needle galaxy) or areas with huge dust regions like Taurus, I have big issues and need very long guide exposure times. For the needle galaxy I needed 7 second loops. Something like this would be helpful, but 9/10 times I have numerous stars.
I use the ZWO 462MC on the ZWO 30mm f/4 guide scope and I’ve never me had an issue. Usually do 1 second frames. I also add a uv/ir cut to reduce the star bloat
IR sensitivity is great. It works well imaging lunar and planetary when the skies arent so stable. And a huge bonus is all of the pixels recieve the same amount of light around 850nm. So you get a wavelength less affected by atmosphere and you use all the pixels. There can be issues with telescope coatings like the starbright though
I have the ZWO version of this camera and it is very versatile. I have used it for Planetary, EAA, Deepsky and Tracking. I have been getting around .78 arc seconds on my AVX mount wich is more than enough resolution for my 70mm refractor. The planetary is nice and crisp and I was able to get some fairly decent shots of nebulae and galaxies doing live view and stacking. The IMX662 has a QE of 91% and has no amp glow even doing 3 to 5 minute exposures.
I've been guiding for years with the ASI462MC which is the precursor to this camera. This camera works great also. I would recommend trying it with an IR850 blocking filter. This will help guide in the IR spectrum only and possibly reduce seeing effects.
You said it at the beginning of the video. Whether or not you can benefit from a better camera depends on the combo of your main scope and your seeing. There's no point in having a guide camera that has better resolution than is possible with your main scope/seeing. For me, my seeing is never better than 1 arcsec/pixel, so there's no advantage to having a guide camera that delivers more than that. But if I were in the market for a new guide camera, the combination of guide/planetary camera, especially at that price, would be compelling.
I had been using the Astronomia guide scope and camera until that camera stopped working. So I swapped out the camera with the svbony 305 planetary camera and it's sensitivity was around 3 times better and my guiding dropped from averaging around 1 arc sec to 0.6 or 0.7 regularly and some nights even lower.
A better guide scope (larger) and better guide camera can get you better guiding and Astro photos. I use a WO 50mm guidescope and an ASI678MC camera. I’m getting .5 arc seconds
That is pretty slick. Likewise, I'd be curious how it performs as a DSO camera. I am using a LodeStar X2 for guiding currently, but this would be great for my smaller refractor for guiding or piggyback imaging. Thanks for the video and hope you will post one about how it performs as a DSO camera.
Hi Cuiv, have you ear about spider vanes apodizers, maybe you will find interesting, since it can help to reduce/vanish the effect of the spider vanes in the stars, will be like an APO NEWTONIAN telescope. Looks like it is pretty easy to 3d printing these little devices and Voila!!! Greetings from BelloCielo - Chile. Jaime
Just received this camera and hope to use it for guiding very soon. There are two filters labeled C and CS and not sure which is best for guiding purposes. The Touptek Manual and website seem to be lacking on this detail.
Can you do more comparison of some popular guide cameras ? Such as IMX174, IMX662, IMX678, etc. would be interesting to see how newer cheap sensors compare against ASI174mm. Thanks
I think that for modern cameras, used in an OAG, sensor area is a more important metric than sensor QE. Most modern cameras have a QE of 80% or higher so slight increases in QE bring little advantage. However, increasing the sensor area will dramatically increase the number of guide stars in the guide camera field. The IMX178 sensor, for example, has about twice the sensor area of the IMX662, and, IMHO is a better sensor for use in an OAG. The IMX178 should be binned, at least 4x4 when used for guiding in an OAG for maximum sensitivity.
I used to have the 178MM but wasn't super successful using it for OAG guiding even with binning! I had replaced it with the 174. But the sensor area is useless if the prism is too small to support it...
I recently added autoguiding to my setup. Given the cost of the dedicated guide scopes like the 120MM/220MM, and that they're pretty much only useful for guiding, it never seemed worth it. For a small amount more, I could get a decent planetary camera that can be used for both guiding and planetary imaging. In the end, I went for the 678MC, which seems similar to the 662, and paired it with an Evoguide50 guide scope. Like you I had heard that colour cameras were not good for guiding, so I was a little concerned. However, on the 1 night I've had a chance to use it, I got 0.7 arc second accuracy, and that's just my first attempt at autoguiding using default settings in NINA/PHD2. I'm now wondering if the idea that colour sensors are inappropriate for guiding is outdated (not to say mono wouldn't be better, but maybe the difference is no longer meaningful). I'm definitely glad I went with this option now, as not only do I have serviceable autoguiding, I also have a decent planetary camera (which I'm impatiently waiting for the next clear night to try out). I'd also now like to see how it handles DSOs too.
Hi Cuiv, and many thanks for this, I did'nt have to but I ordered one last Saturday direct from ToupTek. Hoorah! I was worried that with the design of the G3M662C (distance from the sensor to the shoulder) would not allow the camera to achieve focus using the ZWO OAG with the excellent ZWO helical focuser! I wondered how you got on with that?
Hi, I'm new to astrophotography. My equipment is a Redcat 51 telescope(250mm), a Star Adventurer GTI and a Nikon D5600 stock camera. I'm thinking of bying a dedicated astro camera and I believe that the ZWO ASI 533MC-Pro is a good option. But this zwo has a crop factor of around 2.70 so the final focal length will be like 675mm. If I use an ASIair Plus and guiding with nearly perfect pollar allignment would my mount handle the 675mm or is it too much?
If using a color camera would the bayer matrix mean 4 pixels are used to create 1 color pixel so in PHD guiding you would need to set pixel size double the camera pixel size maybe your guide graph looks better because of wrong pixel size in PHD
No, debayering doesn't do super pixel as you describe, PHD2 is smarter than that! We get the native resolution of the camera via standard debayering algorithm
Interesting video Cuiv I used a QHY L II for a few years then an ASI120MM which I think both cameras have the same sensor anyway & the guiding was ok but never great. My partner uses a Lodestar II & her guiding was always much better so I saw one for sale cheap & bought one. Since changing my guiding figures have improved even though essentially the tech I'm using is older, it would be interesting to see how it performs with the Touptek camera?
Hi Cuiv, Great video. The camera and OAG really caught my eye. I think it would work great with my WO Zenthstar 73. I’m curious, what worked well with the OAG, the G3M662C standard or extend version? I have an old Sky-watcher D=130mm F=650 1.25" focuser Newtonian. The camera might be great to view planets. I probably require adding a 2X Barlow. Not a great setup, but is a cheap way to learn astrophotography with a Newtonian.
This is really interesting, Cuiv! I had the same thoughts as you did regarding sensors and color vs. monochrome. Anyway, yesterday (before I watched your video) I ordered an ASI662 for planetary imaging. I've been using an ASI174mm mini with the Celestron OAG and the guiding has been much better than I used to get with an external guide scope and camera, but maybe I'll see if the ASI662 can be used for guiding for my EdgeHD 8 (with nose piece maybe?) and if it's any better than the ASI174mm. Very curious now. Thanks for the different perspective and the information!
Thanks Greg! It will indeed be interesting to see! That said I'm sure the Celestron OAG + 174MM is probably still the best combo out there, with that massive sensor and prism! Or maybe the 220MM!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Hmmm...I don't remember seeing the 220MM Mini when I was looking for guide cams at the end of the summer! Maybe I was just swamped with everyone talking about the 174MM Mini and how it paired well with the Celestron OAG. Looks like the 220MM is actually a better fit (Guide ratio 1:1.06 with my EdgeHD 8) and the specs look good. I don't yet see the 220MM on the big Cameras Comparison page at ZWO, so maybe it's relatively new. Not sure why I missed it when I was researching. Oh, well. Always something new and better coming down the pike, right? Thanks for the info, Cuiv!
Great video full of useful info as always. I used the previous generation camera with 462 chip for quite a while and I had the best guiding ever, then I sold it and I'm still regretting it. It is not a surprise the new sensor is also great for guiding, definitely in my shopping list. Do you know if there would be additional costs for customs clearance buying directly from touptek?
I don't know about customs clearance.. it's a good question. I think they should be able to answer you from their contact page, in my experience they're quite reactive!
Hey Cuiv, just some feedback. I feel like saying 'it's better' really doesn't help convince me at all. You claim you went from 0.7 to 0.5 rms guiding, but that change in performance can easily be attibuted to a change in seeing. On any given night I can have anywhere from 0.2 to 0.6 and that's purely based on seeing conditions. The only way you could convince me is by showing the SNR return of the same guide stars in PHD2, with everything else being a control aspect. PHD2 guide logs could help with these claims, but we'd still need to manually pick the same guide star for control. Also, this idea of an OSC cam for guiding still screws with my head. lol
Good point, I'll have to see if I still have those graphs! Note that if it was a seeing change it was very timely as it occurred only when that camera was guiding and bad seeing returned once I changed it back! More seriously the jet stream makes the seeing in Tokyo permanently terrible, but stably so. Unlike other areas, I've actually never seen significant change in guiding RMS across the night (except after Meridian when fewer stars might get selected) :-)
I've used an IR pass filter for my 120MM camera for a couple of years now. For this reason it seems to have worked really well. Why don't you try that type of filter with your 290 camera?
Just curious. Since IR is less affected by seeing and this camera has enhanced IR sensitivity could a say 600nm low pass filter offer superior guiding or do you loss just too much light?
Hi Cuiv, I wonder if you tried guiding with the QHY5III 715C? I know the pixels are tiny, but maybe it can be used "as monochrome" in the IR spectrum and binned 2X2? Thanks, Daniel
Hi Daniel, I own a QHY5III 715C and tried it as a guidcam on a 30mm and 60mm F4 quidscope as on on a Celestron C6 with OAG. Even if you bin 2x2 it works only with the 30 and 60mm scope. The guid accuracy in a Bortle 4 to 5 area is 0.7 to 1.2. Under the same condition an asi678mc binned 2x2 will give you 0.3 to 0.7. Maybe someone got better results than me, but I think as a guidcam the QHY5III 715C is suboptimal.
I’m always disappointed that off-axis guiders don’t accommodate rotation of the unit well. The Celestron model does, but weighs a ton. Why can’t other manufacturers design a simple unit that allows 360 degree rotation?
For $219.00 I thought it would be worth giving it a try, so I just got one on order. I also use the ZWO ASI 290MM Mini as my guide camera with my Scops OAG with the autofocus. I use it with my 8" Edge HD and typically get between 0.68 arc seconds with good seeing conditions up to around 1.28 arc seconds during poor seeing. I too also get pretty good imaging even at 1.28 arc seconds. But if this will get me down to around 0.4 or even 0.5 arc seconds I would be thrilled, especially at $219.00. Do you know how to set up an OAG to help with getting round stars. I get some many oval shaped stars that PHD2 has trouble latching onto the center of the star. Occasionally I will get a round star and when I get my focus really tight is when I get my 0.68 arc seconds guiding. But getting a round star is tough. If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. ;o)
I had this issue with the small zwo prism. In order to successfully guide with an oag on the edge I couldn't use my 290, but had good success with the 174mm mini since it has a much larger sensor and use a large zwo oag
It's not a huge risk at that price indeed. The OAG star shapes completely depend on your imaging scope! The trick is to slide the prism as far as you can into the cone of light without disturbing the main imaging sensor. The closer the prism is to the center the better the star shapes it picks up, but the more likely it is to create a shadow or diffraction artifacts on your main image
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm getting a 174MM but not the mini, primarily for solar and lunar, but will give it a shot when I'm guiding. I'll also try out my 120MM mini just to see how it responds. @@dominickzaucha
Hi Yannick! Very interesting topic you mentioned, as I am seeking also ways to improve guiding. But I have a couple of questions, namely i) are you able to get a decent number of stars with IR and 2) why do mention it may not be so advantageous for guidescope?
It would be great if you could do a PrimaLuceLab Eagle5 review. If not, what are your thoughts about the video that Nebula Photos did "ASIAIR vs. LAPTOP vs. EAGLE". Thank you
Hello, I recently picked up an OAG, ATR3CMOS20000KPA, G3M662C, and GPCMOS01200KPF from ToupTek. I was wondering what setting you were using for the G3M662C when using for guiding as I can't seem to see any stars with either of the G3M662C or GPCMOS01200KPF. I know the cameras are working because if I point them at a local light source, the cameras show it (go from dark to light and back). Will be doing some daytime testing today, but any guidance you could give would be great. Maybe a good video idea? Anyway, thanks. Oh, I tested them with both PHD2 and SharpCap Pro.
Hi Cuiv, Hope you are well? I use a celestron OAG on a 12" sct, I used to use a loadstar but there are issues with the ccd sensor and phd these days creating a double star issue that can be solved by binning or if you are a coder you can alter some of the communication protocols. I now use my old Atik314l+ as a guide camera, it even has cooling, but slow download speeds with it being a ccd chip I have a point grey blackfly camera that has the174 chip i use for lunar and solar but it doesn't have an ascom driver so I cannot use it with phd! I have been considering upgrading to the qhy 174 but at £400 it will have to wait for now Do you still have your 174? how does this camera compare? I was looking for something with a bigger chip to help find stars but would I be better with a smaller sensitive chip?? You've just added to my astro conundrums!! Thanks for sharing Bryan
Hey Bryan! Things are going well :) I no longer have my QHY 174 camera so I can't compare directly - but it was a match made in heaven for the Celestron OAG, highly recommended especially with a 12 inch scope!
Thanks very much for this (and all the other videos too - such a wealth of information)..:) I am planning to get the ToupTek GPM462M with an OAG on a Celestron 8SE (please dont hate..:) it is my first "real" telescope).I am aware of all the downsides of the 8SE for DSO etc..but...do you think the GPM462M is an ok guide camera? Just an honest opinion...I had a look on astrobin and there are a few people who use it so I know it is not terrible, but not having had an OAG before I am a bit hesitant (I am looking at a 12.5mm prism btw) Thank you for taking your time to read this (and hopefully answer too..:) Clear skies and gambate!! My main camera is the Uranus-C from Player one
I'm confused because I've been using a UV/IR blog filter on my asi 120 MM to avoid the IR light causing blurred stars. An IR pass filter is recommended here. what is right? CS Andreas
Cuiv, I know you are the lazy geek. But there are even more lazy geeks ( I mean those who don’t even get out of bed) in this world. For those, can you please do an Absolute donkeys guide to guiding? Thanks. Then I will get out of bed!
As another 'lazy' astro person I think the biggest problem with guiding is that people stress too much over trying to improve the guiding stats without regard to how much of an improvement it actually makes. I have a similar simple guide scope with a newer, different brand simple guide camera using PHD2. PHD2 set some defaults on installation, then I used the Guiding Assistant to refine the defaults. Result? It works fine. Could it be better. Probably, but there is the risk of making it worse as well by playing with stuff based on opinions on the internet. Summary. Default settings guiding with relatively inexpensive hardware is better than no guiding at all.
Пользовался камерой этой фирмы touptek. Ужасная камера. Уж лучше брать камеру от zwo или от qhy, но не эти камеры третьего эшелона. В touptek плохая матрица и все остальное. Большая часть матриц передает только 10 бит от силы.
I use a Touptek 2600 mono and a 2600 colour for two years now. They are the best cameras I have ever used. I absolutely recommend Touptek. They also haven't had such problems with oil leak in the CMOS sensors as ZWO had.
![ILLSLICK X YOUNGOHM - We're The same [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yUJNkobYR0E/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for watching! What are your thoughts on this, am I hallucinating?
If you want to support the channel at no cost to you and you're planning on buying anything (literally anything) from Amazon, Agena, or HPS, please use the links in the description! (Like amzn.to/3hTB5Ne for Amazon)
Hi Cuiv. Since you made this video, have you tested the camera with your guide scope? It would be very interesting to see if it performed better than the 290. Thanks.
Super interesting video mate and really timely too! I've just came up against the limits of my own guide scope setup and had to change things around too, so happy to see that 662 is able to serve as an excellent guider as well as being a great planetary cam as you mentioned! 🙂
Clear skies man!
Hahaha we always are looking for stuff to improve :-)
Hi Cuiv! Greeting from Germany! I think your most important sentence is that if someone has a working setup there is no need to change the camera. From my point of view in case of trouble because of seeing a camera with this sensor could be a solution. But if the current one works well no need to change.
I have a ZWO 120MM-Mini for my 8" RC with a ZWO OAG. That works gives me an amazing 0.15 - 0.3 RMS. For my small 70/420 I use a ZWO 120MC-S, so also a color cam with USB3 in a 120mm guidescope with 2x barlow lense. Works amazing too with 0.4 - 0.5 RMS. As a third guiding setup I use a Omegon (also Touptek) 1200b color with a 190mm guidescope on my 6" Newton. This one is also in the 0.5 RMS range.
I can clearly see a difference between using Mono or Color guide cameras as the 120MM was used on my small APO earlier giving me slightly better RMS.
So my setups are working well. So I won't change anything for the moment. If I will need another guide camera for a new setup the 662 might be an option for me as well. I will depend on the final price in "Everything is artificially made expensive Germany" and if I want to go with my AsiAir or my micro PC (NINA) on that new setup.
What I am much more interested in are the dimensions of the Touptek OAG that you have been showing. 10mm Prisma should be a nice upgrade from the 8mm on the ZWO for me.😁I just need to see if it would fit my imaging train without any problems.
Yes, that Touptek OAG looks really solid!!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek the price on their website looks really good. I also discovered that they have a motorized filter wheel now too. I think I will have to get one of those. I hope they are going to send a sample to you for testing.
It is good to see that Touptek also sees astrophotography as something that is worth to spend more effort in development besides the cameras.
Admire your honesty, cant wait for your next video, Also Your video on the ZWO Seestar inspired 4 out of the 5 Astro Junkies , to Purchase one . We have rented a large cottage in the extreme north west of Scotland (bortal 0-1).in November (new moon period) . Many thanks for your overall enthusiasm and inspiration. This will help make us into the "Lazy" Astro Junkies. Just remember that you are now an Honorary Member. xxx
Bortle 0-1 sounds like pure bliss... Enjoy it and enjoy your Seestars! I'm having tremendous fun with mine (in fact, imaging the Pacman nebula with it right now)
Thanks again Cuiv for this interresting video again...
Until recently I was using for guiding the standard ZWO OAG (8mm prism) and the ASI290 and it was working… OK… but many time not so much stars and going under 0,9 RMS was just exceptional.
I changed for the ASKAR OAG (10mm prism) and the ASI220 (4µm) and the improvement is huge, RMS is now around 0,4 and no problem finding stars at all
Well done!! Glad to see you're using the Askar OAG! Are you using it together with a filter wheel or filter drawer? Or do you insert the filter in their extender tube thingy?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek With a filter drawer.
The Askar OAG is really superior! Other OAGs generally have two screws to adjust the height of the prism but this one also has two perpendicular micro screws which make the whole thing completely rigid and monolithic. And in addition to a larger prism the light passthru between the prism and the camera is oval and large which is much more adapted to the shape of the sensor of the ASI220 (or 290). Also the focuseur is really smooth..... I love it 😂
@@patolucas3146 thanks! Which filter drawer do you use? I couldn't find a good way to attach it to my ZWO filter wheel since the camera side isn't threaded...
I use a TS filter drawer connected in M54 to the Askar OAG and M42 to the ASI camer... I dont understand why you cannot connect it to the ZWO wheel? the Askar comes with a bunch of adapters.
I have used a IMX585 based color camera for guiding for a while before I went back to mono. I used the IR pass filter with the 585 and it worked pretty well. The IMX585's bayer filter becomes transparent at bands above 800 nm basically making it a mono camera. The only reason I went back to mono is the IR light pollution in my area from everyone having security cameras which sometimes added noise to my guiding. Yeah it's totally fine guiding with a color camera as even though it has a bayer filter, doesn't seem to reduce accuracy much. I used a cheap SvBony camera for several months before I got my first dedicated guide camera and the results were only a little bit better for the latter. Touptek is finally coming out with updated cameras and a fresh new site that doesn't have drivers from 2021 🙂 Looking forward to what they come out with. Thanks for the video, Clear Skies Cuiv!
Very happy to see Touptek adding competition to the market for sure!! And I need to get an IR pass filter :)
Interesting. I've just been researching guide-cameras and ended up with the ASI585MC.
It's basically the same FOV/sensor-size as the ASI174MM everybody still keeps recommending for wide-FOV guiding, but without the 1st-gen sensor tech, and at 2.9 microns.
At bin1 it's 2x the 174's resolution, and bin2 it's about the same res. I have no idea why ZWO won't put out a mini-version of this, as the recommended ASI220 isn't that much better than the retired ASI290.
If IR too much local IR glow is a problem, add an IR filter?
I currently use the 290MM mini from ZWO with an OAG on my newt. I generally have great guiding 0.4 - 0.6 RMS.. HOWEVER, when I shoot specific targets away from the galactic plane (like the needle galaxy) or areas with huge dust regions like Taurus, I have big issues and need very long guide exposure times. For the needle galaxy I needed 7 second loops. Something like this would be helpful, but 9/10 times I have numerous stars.
Yep, it's always the struggle of: is it worth the expense? Overall, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Interesting. Please keep us updated on this camera. I'm thinking about upgrading my guide camera so this is very timely for me.
Will do! I want to test it for deep sky and with an IR pass filter as well
I used my QHY5LII to image M57 a long time ago and it gave pretty good results.
This is why I bought the asi662 for my first planetary camera last year, so it can double duty as a guider in IR on another rig 😁
Double duty is the best!
I use the ZWO 462MC on the ZWO 30mm f/4 guide scope and I’ve never me had an issue. Usually do 1 second frames. I also add a uv/ir cut to reduce the star bloat
IR sensitivity is great. It works well imaging lunar and planetary when the skies arent so stable. And a huge bonus is all of the pixels recieve the same amount of light around 850nm. So you get a wavelength less affected by atmosphere and you use all the pixels. There can be issues with telescope coatings like the starbright though
I need to test with some IR pass filters!
I have the ZWO version of this camera and it is very versatile. I have used it for Planetary, EAA, Deepsky and Tracking. I have been getting around .78 arc seconds on my AVX mount wich is more than enough resolution for my 70mm refractor. The planetary is nice and crisp and I was able to get some fairly decent shots of nebulae and galaxies doing live view and stacking. The IMX662 has a QE of 91% and has no amp glow even doing 3 to 5 minute exposures.
That's great to hear, especially on deep sky! Those recent sensor are really amazing
What model is the ZWO version?
I've been guiding for years with the ASI462MC which is the precursor to this camera. This camera works great also. I would recommend trying it with an IR850 blocking filter. This will help guide in the IR spectrum only and possibly reduce seeing effects.
Yes I need to find one of those, C mount format
You said it at the beginning of the video. Whether or not you can benefit from a better camera depends on the combo of your main scope and your seeing. There's no point in having a guide camera that has better resolution than is possible with your main scope/seeing. For me, my seeing is never better than 1 arcsec/pixel, so there's no advantage to having a guide camera that delivers more than that. But if I were in the market for a new guide camera, the combination of guide/planetary camera, especially at that price, would be compelling.
Absolutely right Dave!
Merci beaucoup, exactly the kind of info a lazy guy like me was looking for.
You are welcome!
Very interesting video. I always learn something useful. Thanks!
Thanks so much Rick!
Totally agree with using a better camera for guiding. I am interested in picking up the zwo 174 mini for guiding.
The 174 sensor is excellent for OAGs with large prisms!
I had been using the Astronomia guide scope and camera until that camera stopped working. So I swapped out the camera with the svbony 305 planetary camera and it's sensitivity was around 3 times better and my guiding dropped from averaging around 1 arc sec to 0.6 or 0.7 regularly and some nights even lower.
Awesome to hear :)
I have the guidescope incorporated in my ioptron cem 70 mount. It works very well
Excellent to hear!
A better guide scope (larger) and better guide camera can get you better guiding and Astro photos. I use a WO 50mm guidescope and an ASI678MC camera. I’m getting .5 arc seconds
Looking forward to your review of the Astrostation ;)
That is pretty slick. Likewise, I'd be curious how it performs as a DSO camera. I am using a LodeStar X2 for guiding currently, but this would be great for my smaller refractor for guiding or piggyback imaging. Thanks for the video and hope you will post one about how it performs as a DSO camera.
Thanks! I'll try to find time to test it out as a DSO camera! :)
Hi Cuiv, have you ear about spider vanes apodizers, maybe you will find interesting, since it can help to reduce/vanish the effect of the spider vanes in the stars, will be like an APO NEWTONIAN telescope. Looks like it is pretty easy to 3d printing these little devices and Voila!!!
Greetings from BelloCielo - Chile.
Jaime
Yep, I've looked at them, but then I realize I like those Newtonian spikes (I know it's bad lol)
My OAG's are 12mm Prisms, For my setup i can't use those 8mm ones. Now if QHY would come out with one, I would be happy
I wonder if the ASI662 would work just as well. I have it for planetary, but usually it won't be in use when I'm guiding, which is when I'm doing DSO.
Should work just as well, same sensor after all!
Thanks Cuiv!
Thank you!
Just received this camera and hope to use it for guiding very soon. There are two filters labeled C and CS and not sure which is best for guiding purposes. The Touptek Manual and website seem to be lacking on this detail.
Great video sir, always informative, thanks for sharing 🙏
Thank you!
Can you do more comparison of some popular guide cameras ? Such as IMX174, IMX662, IMX678, etc. would be interesting to see how newer cheap sensors compare against ASI174mm. Thanks
Unfortunately I don't have all those cameras to compare :(
I think that for modern cameras, used in an OAG, sensor area is a more important metric than sensor QE. Most modern cameras have a QE of 80% or higher so slight increases in QE bring little advantage. However, increasing the sensor area will dramatically increase the number of guide stars in the guide camera field. The IMX178 sensor, for example, has about twice the sensor area of the IMX662, and, IMHO is a better sensor for use in an OAG. The IMX178 should be binned, at least 4x4 when used for guiding in an OAG for maximum sensitivity.
I used to have the 178MM but wasn't super successful using it for OAG guiding even with binning! I had replaced it with the 174. But the sensor area is useless if the prism is too small to support it...
I recently added autoguiding to my setup. Given the cost of the dedicated guide scopes like the 120MM/220MM, and that they're pretty much only useful for guiding, it never seemed worth it. For a small amount more, I could get a decent planetary camera that can be used for both guiding and planetary imaging.
In the end, I went for the 678MC, which seems similar to the 662, and paired it with an Evoguide50 guide scope. Like you I had heard that colour cameras were not good for guiding, so I was a little concerned. However, on the 1 night I've had a chance to use it, I got 0.7 arc second accuracy, and that's just my first attempt at autoguiding using default settings in NINA/PHD2. I'm now wondering if the idea that colour sensors are inappropriate for guiding is outdated (not to say mono wouldn't be better, but maybe the difference is no longer meaningful).
I'm definitely glad I went with this option now, as not only do I have serviceable autoguiding, I also have a decent planetary camera (which I'm impatiently waiting for the next clear night to try out). I'd also now like to see how it handles DSOs too.
Great to see you had a similar experience! And understood on the DSO side :)
Hi Cuiv, and many thanks for this, I did'nt have to but I ordered one last Saturday direct from ToupTek. Hoorah!
I was worried that with the design of the G3M662C (distance from the sensor to the shoulder) would not allow the camera to achieve focus using the ZWO OAG with the excellent ZWO helical focuser! I wondered how you got on with that?
I'm using it with the ZWO OAG and ZWO helical focuser, so it should be fine!
Hi, I'm new to astrophotography. My equipment is a Redcat 51 telescope(250mm), a Star Adventurer GTI and a Nikon D5600 stock camera. I'm thinking of bying a dedicated astro camera and I believe that the ZWO ASI 533MC-Pro is a good option. But this zwo has a crop factor of around 2.70 so the final focal length will be like 675mm. If I use an ASIair Plus and guiding with nearly perfect pollar allignment would my mount handle the 675mm or is it too much?
If using a color camera would the bayer matrix mean 4 pixels are used to create 1 color pixel so in PHD guiding you would need to set pixel size double the camera pixel size maybe your guide graph looks better because of wrong pixel size in PHD
No, debayering doesn't do super pixel as you describe, PHD2 is smarter than that! We get the native resolution of the camera via standard debayering algorithm
Interesting video Cuiv I used a QHY L II for a few years then an ASI120MM which I think both cameras have the same sensor anyway & the guiding was ok but never great. My partner uses a Lodestar II & her guiding was always much better so I saw one for sale cheap & bought one. Since changing my guiding figures have improved even though essentially the tech I'm using is older, it would be interesting to see how it performs with the Touptek camera?
For sure - the Lodestar II has always had a great reputation!
Hi Cuiv,
Great video. The camera and OAG really caught my eye. I think it would work great with my WO Zenthstar 73. I’m curious, what worked well with the OAG, the G3M662C standard or extend version?
I have an old Sky-watcher D=130mm F=650 1.25" focuser Newtonian. The camera might be great to view planets. I probably require adding a 2X Barlow. Not a great setup, but is a cheap way to learn astrophotography with a Newtonian.
This is really interesting, Cuiv! I had the same thoughts as you did regarding sensors and color vs. monochrome. Anyway, yesterday (before I watched your video) I ordered an ASI662 for planetary imaging. I've been using an ASI174mm mini with the Celestron OAG and the guiding has been much better than I used to get with an external guide scope and camera, but maybe I'll see if the ASI662 can be used for guiding for my EdgeHD 8 (with nose piece maybe?) and if it's any better than the ASI174mm. Very curious now. Thanks for the different perspective and the information!
Thanks Greg! It will indeed be interesting to see! That said I'm sure the Celestron OAG + 174MM is probably still the best combo out there, with that massive sensor and prism! Or maybe the 220MM!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Hmmm...I don't remember seeing the 220MM Mini when I was looking for guide cams at the end of the summer! Maybe I was just swamped with everyone talking about the 174MM Mini and how it paired well with the Celestron OAG. Looks like the 220MM is actually a better fit (Guide ratio 1:1.06 with my EdgeHD 8) and the specs look good. I don't yet see the 220MM on the big Cameras Comparison page at ZWO, so maybe it's relatively new. Not sure why I missed it when I was researching. Oh, well. Always something new and better coming down the pike, right? Thanks for the info, Cuiv!
Great video full of useful info as always. I used the previous generation camera with 462 chip for quite a while and I had the best guiding ever, then I sold it and I'm still regretting it. It is not a surprise the new sensor is also great for guiding, definitely in my shopping list. Do you know if there would be additional costs for customs clearance buying directly from touptek?
I don't know about customs clearance.. it's a good question. I think they should be able to answer you from their contact page, in my experience they're quite reactive!
Hey Cuiv, just some feedback. I feel like saying 'it's better' really doesn't help convince me at all. You claim you went from 0.7 to 0.5 rms guiding, but that change in performance can easily be attibuted to a change in seeing. On any given night I can have anywhere from 0.2 to 0.6 and that's purely based on seeing conditions. The only way you could convince me is by showing the SNR return of the same guide stars in PHD2, with everything else being a control aspect. PHD2 guide logs could help with these claims, but we'd still need to manually pick the same guide star for control. Also, this idea of an OSC cam for guiding still screws with my head. lol
Good point, I'll have to see if I still have those graphs! Note that if it was a seeing change it was very timely as it occurred only when that camera was guiding and bad seeing returned once I changed it back!
More seriously the jet stream makes the seeing in Tokyo permanently terrible, but stably so. Unlike other areas, I've actually never seen significant change in guiding RMS across the night (except after Meridian when fewer stars might get selected) :-)
I've used an IR pass filter for my 120MM camera for a couple of years now. For this reason it seems to have worked really well. Why don't you try that type of filter with your 290 camera?
Many things to try :)
Nice channel, Cuiv! What do you think about the cheaper option (specially in Spain), the Svbony S305C with the same sensor but USB 2.0?
Overall it's the sensor that's important so I think that should work fine!
Just curious. Since IR is less affected by seeing and this camera has enhanced IR sensitivity could a say 600nm low pass filter offer superior guiding or do you loss just too much light?
It should indeed! I will be looking for an IR pass filter of the right format
Hi Cuiv,
I wonder if you tried guiding with the QHY5III 715C?
I know the pixels are tiny, but maybe it can be used "as monochrome" in the IR spectrum and binned 2X2?
Thanks,
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
I own a QHY5III 715C and tried it as a guidcam on a 30mm and 60mm F4 quidscope as on on a Celestron C6 with OAG. Even if you bin 2x2 it works only with the 30 and 60mm scope. The guid accuracy in a Bortle 4 to 5 area is 0.7 to 1.2. Under the same condition an asi678mc binned 2x2 will give you 0.3 to 0.7. Maybe someone got better results than me, but I think as a guidcam the QHY5III 715C is suboptimal.
I’m always disappointed that off-axis guiders don’t accommodate rotation of the unit well. The Celestron model does, but weighs a ton. Why can’t other manufacturers design a simple unit that allows 360 degree rotation?
Yeah I agree. The ZWO one can kind of do rotation but it's in steps and janky
For $219.00 I thought it would be worth giving it a try, so I just got one on order. I also use the ZWO ASI 290MM Mini as my guide camera with my Scops OAG with the autofocus. I use it with my 8" Edge HD and typically get between 0.68 arc seconds with good seeing conditions up to around 1.28 arc seconds during poor seeing. I too also get pretty good imaging even at 1.28 arc seconds. But if this will get me down to around 0.4 or even 0.5 arc seconds I would be thrilled, especially at $219.00. Do you know how to set up an OAG to help with getting round stars. I get some many oval shaped stars that PHD2 has trouble latching onto the center of the star. Occasionally I will get a round star and when I get my focus really tight is when I get my 0.68 arc seconds guiding. But getting a round star is tough. If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. ;o)
I had this issue with the small zwo prism. In order to successfully guide with an oag on the edge I couldn't use my 290, but had good success with the 174mm mini since it has a much larger sensor and use a large zwo oag
It's not a huge risk at that price indeed. The OAG star shapes completely depend on your imaging scope! The trick is to slide the prism as far as you can into the cone of light without disturbing the main imaging sensor. The closer the prism is to the center the better the star shapes it picks up, but the more likely it is to create a shadow or diffraction artifacts on your main image
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm getting a 174MM but not the mini, primarily for solar and lunar, but will give it a shot when I'm guiding. I'll also try out my 120MM mini just to see how it responds. @@dominickzaucha
Hi Yannick! Very interesting topic you mentioned, as I am seeking also ways to improve guiding. But I have a couple of questions, namely i) are you able to get a decent number of stars with IR and 2) why do mention it may not be so advantageous for guidescope?
Better is better. So I am for it.
It would be great if you could do a PrimaLuceLab Eagle5 review. If not, what are your thoughts about the video that Nebula Photos did "ASIAIR vs. LAPTOP vs. EAGLE". Thank you
I wish I could get my hands on one but they're not particularly cheap!!
Hello, I recently picked up an OAG, ATR3CMOS20000KPA, G3M662C, and GPCMOS01200KPF from ToupTek. I was wondering what setting you were using for the G3M662C when using for guiding as I can't seem to see any stars with either of the G3M662C or GPCMOS01200KPF. I know the cameras are working because if I point them at a local light source, the cameras show it (go from dark to light and back). Will be doing some daytime testing today, but any guidance you could give would be great. Maybe a good video idea? Anyway, thanks.
Oh, I tested them with both PHD2 and SharpCap Pro.
Hi Cuiv, Hope you are well?
I use a celestron OAG on a 12" sct, I used to use a loadstar but there are issues with the ccd sensor and phd these days creating a double star issue that can be solved by binning or if you are a coder you can alter some of the communication protocols.
I now use my old Atik314l+ as a guide camera, it even has cooling, but slow download speeds with it being a ccd chip
I have a point grey blackfly camera that has the174 chip i use for lunar and solar but it doesn't have an ascom driver so I cannot use it with phd!
I have been considering upgrading to the qhy 174 but at £400 it will have to wait for now
Do you still have your 174? how does this camera compare?
I was looking for something with a bigger chip to help find stars but would I be better with a smaller sensitive chip??
You've just added to my astro conundrums!!
Thanks for sharing
Bryan
Hey Bryan! Things are going well :) I no longer have my QHY 174 camera so I can't compare directly - but it was a match made in heaven for the Celestron OAG, highly recommended especially with a 12 inch scope!
My 120 mini doesn’t want to talk to my AIR anymore, well it dithers but no graph…no clue why? No blue or Ed lines, tried everything?
No idea... That's a question for ZWO... :(
Thanks very much for this (and all the other videos too - such a wealth of information)..:) I am planning to get the ToupTek GPM462M with an OAG on a Celestron 8SE (please dont hate..:) it is my first "real" telescope).I am aware of all the downsides of the 8SE for DSO etc..but...do you think the GPM462M is an ok guide camera? Just an honest opinion...I had a look on astrobin and there are a few people who use it so I know it is not terrible, but not having had an OAG before I am a bit hesitant (I am looking at a 12.5mm prism btw) Thank you for taking your time to read this (and hopefully answer too..:) Clear skies and gambate!! My main camera is the Uranus-C from Player one
Is it the one wth AR glass or IR Filter Glass
The imx662 is better than imx462?
What would be the result of adding a narrow filter to a guide camera? Would it improve tracking?
An IR pass filter would be better, narrowband would force longer exposures
I'm confused because I've been using a UV/IR blog filter on my asi 120 MM to avoid the IR light causing blurred stars. An IR pass filter is recommended here. what is right? CS Andreas
That's less than half the price of the ASI174MM. Seems like a win win.
The catch is its a tiny sensor that doesn't work that well in high focal length imaging with an oag. If you only use a guide scope it's great!
With the sensor size limitation mentioned here! But sensor size is limited by OAG prism size too
Salut Yannick, pourrais tu l'essayer en near IR ?
Oui! Il faut que je trouve un IR pass format C
Cuiv, I know you are the lazy geek. But there are even more lazy geeks ( I mean those who don’t even get out of bed) in this world. For those, can you please do an Absolute donkeys guide to guiding? Thanks. Then I will get out of bed!
Have you considered not guiding at all? I've been trying it out and having decent success. 30s exposures and SharpCaps auto recentering make it easy.
That's a good idea, although I did cover it in a series of videos called "astrophotography for lazy people"!
As another 'lazy' astro person I think the biggest problem with guiding is that people stress too much over trying to improve the guiding stats without regard to how much of an improvement it actually makes. I have a similar simple guide scope with a newer, different brand simple guide camera using PHD2. PHD2 set some defaults on installation, then I used the Guiding Assistant to refine the defaults. Result? It works fine. Could it be better. Probably, but there is the risk of making it worse as well by playing with stuff based on opinions on the internet. Summary. Default settings guiding with relatively inexpensive hardware is better than no guiding at all.
Пользовался камерой этой фирмы touptek. Ужасная камера.
Уж лучше брать камеру от zwo или от qhy, но не эти камеры третьего эшелона. В touptek плохая матрица и все остальное. Большая часть матриц передает только 10 бит от силы.
What do you mean by matrixes? The Bayer Matrix? I've had no problems with Touptek cameras - I use them for both guide cameras and main imaging cameras
I use a Touptek 2600 mono and a 2600 colour for two years now. They are the best cameras I have ever used. I absolutely recommend Touptek. They also haven't had such problems with oil leak in the CMOS sensors as ZWO had.
@@Thomas-mn5ihстранно, я проверил и увы, эти дешёвые камеры уступили маркам QHY, ZWO.
Booo! I just bought a 290 😢
It still works great :)