thumbs up number 11 . very interesting maps and logic behind your thinking .. it makes sense.. im from Australia 🤠 also a big fan of bruce.. i have never been to scotland ..
Third point, “Clan” is a loan word used in English, which is applied to patrilineal societies, thus mention of Somali Clans. Clan as a term for patrilineal societies might as well be referring to a tribe, a universal concept still found across the world. In regard to Scotland and in comparison to the highland Clans, how pervasive were the Brehon laws (or the Cumbrian or English equivalents laws based on kin groups as oppose to the individual) or how far did the newer feudal system penetrate Scottish society?
All good questions. In regard to the last, R. Andrew MacDonald discussed feudalism in "The Kingdom of the Isles: Scotland's Western Seaboard, c. 1100-c. 1336". Feudalism penetrated far into the Highlands and Isles. Ferchar mac an t-Sagairt was knighted. Gaelic magnate descendants of Somerled (MacDonald, MacDougall, and MacRory) used seals portraying them in the fashion of knighthood. Feudalism and the kin-based society were not mutually exclusive.
I think that something to consider is that clans were more of a thing of Gaelic culture, and not language. Language is one element of culture, but there are many others. Just because a region had adopted the Gaelic language doesn't mean they had adopted the culture and its practices. Now, to look at the other side of this a bit as well, Picts did have clans. At least, the Cruithne - the Irish Picts - certainly did. All of the names that have or had some form of Gill/Gilla/Giolla in them are of Irish Pictish origin. This would include names like MacGilivray, Gilchrist, Gilmore, MacBride (or. Mac Gille Brighde), and MacTavish (or. Mac Gille sTamhais). So, did Scottish Picts also have clans, or did only Irish Picts have clans because they had been Gaelicized? That would be something to investigate.
@nathanthomson1931..........the picts are scottish not irish,they are believed to be of gallic origins..the pictones . it's gallic in scotland...no the mythical gaelic" nonsense. type in.......macgillvray , name meaning and family history, family crest and coat of arms-house of names......then.......surname database: magillvray last name origin........you will see where he writes..the mac prefix was never used on the name macgilvray......that's because the macs and o's were mostly adopted from scotland by irish nationalists in the 1800s to distance the irish from their anglo-norman roots......then type in......mctavish name meaning, family history,family crest and coat of arms-house of names.......macbride also scottish...,
@@nathanthomson1931 lol....a have researched it fer years there is absolutely no archaeological evidence of cruithne ireland. most of your history is fictional or adaptations of other nations histories written by medieval irish monks to create some ancient lineage fer ireland. the irish annals are fake. the first peoples to enter ireland (certainly ulster) came from scotland.. irish medieval irish monks were presenting false fictional tales as a history of ireland. the picts are scottish. maybe you should research them....alang with the mythical gaels of ireland..
@@nathanthomson1931 maybe you should research again...the picts came from scotland. maybe you should enlighten people of the origins of the picts in ireland. from where when and how did they get there?.....same with the mythical gaels...
@brucecollins641 The Cruithin originally spoke a Pictish language. We know this by looking at names. For example, the Scottish clan MacTavish originated in Co. Donegal in the north of Ireland, and it was originally written as Mac Giolla sTamhais. Tamhais (Tavish) is the Pictish form of Thomas, and the 's' in sTamhais is actually a funny character that looks like a cross between an s and a g, and that is a Pictish character. Where did the Cruithin come from? They probably originated in Scotland. Who is to say that people couldn't migrate back and forth across the straight between Ireland and Argyll or Galloway? We know that the Gaelic language and culture came to Scotland from Ireland, so it's entirely likely that Pictish peoples had migrated from Scotland to Ireland before that.
First point, in-regard to the Pictish language, Bede gives us a Pictish word Peanfahel, which a place name now called Kinnneil from the Gaelic Kineil, probably the Gaelization of older Brittonic *Pengual. The place is a compound word meaning “end of the wall (that is the Antonine)”, implying the Pict were bilingual speakers of Brittonic and Gaelic, in Bede’s time the king of the Picts was Nechtain mac Dargairt, leader of Clan Comgaill of Dal Riada, who rules Strathearn west Druim Alban.
Thanks for the response! Have you ever read any of Alex Woolf's work on the Pictish language? He believes it wasn't as uniform as we think and that what was spoken on Skye might have had more Q Celtic features than what was spoken in Fife. Either way, thanks for your thoughts.
I would be interested in hearing more about Woolf's work on the Pictish language. Katherine Forsyth in her 1995 paper "Language of Pictland" (eprints.gla.ac.uk/2081/1/languagepictland.pdf) argued forcefully that Brittonic was the language of northern Britain in Roman times, additionally the Britons Latin clear identified their Picti as north Britons. It is only in Bede that we learn of a Pictish language differed from the Brittonic dialects, at a time when Woolf describes an archaic usage of Latin Picti for the Irish Cruithne [English: Briton] kingdom in Tay river basin (per Amra Cholium Chille), following the arrival of the Dal Riada from NE Co. Antrim (presumably their homeland as the area is named for them, unlike Scotland were land is named for their sub-tribes). Hence, I am left with a problem in regard to your understanding of Pictish words, as I only know of one word identifiable as Pictish, namely Peanfahel and no other. As Dr Forsyth points there has a large amount of wishful thinking by past historians in regard to their understanding the Picts, the Picts seem to be as fable Loch Ness monster, i.e., the creation of furtive imaginations.
Second point, Gaelic dynastic surnames used today to denote clans, like those with Macs and Os, came into existence in the 11th century, based on patrilineal claims to tenth century ancestors. The Clans themselves are ancient, just under going frequent renaming to reflect the leading patrilineal branches. There is sometime a mistaken belief that Clans only came into existence then dynastic surnames were taken!
Totally agree. My most recent podcast episode discusses those earlier kindreds. I do believe that it's important to see that clans are older than the 1100's. The word "clann" began being used to denote a kindred instead of a more literal meaning of "children" in the 900's according to John Bannerman and others. You make great points, Bernard, and I'm glad I have people like you joining in the conversation.
Certainly the Office of Brieve, from the Irish Breitheamh, the genitive form Breitheamhan gives raise to "Brehon", existed in the Outer Hebrides up to the 17th century.
Clan MacTavish originated in Co. Donegal in Northern Ireland as part of the Cenel Connal. They were originally Mac Gillatsamhais, and we're rulers around Sheephaven Bay by no later than 700 AD and had left the area for Scotland no later than 800 AD. Then, the official progenitor, Tamhais Mor (Tavish the Great), was born in Knapdale, Scotland ca 1100 AD.
I have some content coming out that I did with Aonghas MacCoinnich from the University of Glasgow. The MacNicols came up during our conversation about the MacLeods of Lewis. Stay tuned.
thumbs up number 11 . very interesting maps and logic behind your thinking .. it makes sense.. im from Australia 🤠 also a big fan of bruce.. i have never been to scotland ..
Thanks for your feedback!
Third point, “Clan” is a loan word used in English, which is applied to patrilineal societies, thus mention of Somali Clans. Clan as a term for patrilineal societies might as well be referring to a tribe, a universal concept still found across the world. In regard to Scotland and in comparison to the highland Clans, how pervasive were the Brehon laws (or the Cumbrian or English equivalents laws based on kin groups as oppose to the individual) or how far did the newer feudal system penetrate Scottish society?
All good questions. In regard to the last, R. Andrew MacDonald discussed feudalism in "The Kingdom of the Isles: Scotland's Western Seaboard, c. 1100-c. 1336". Feudalism penetrated far into the Highlands and Isles. Ferchar mac an t-Sagairt was knighted. Gaelic magnate descendants of Somerled (MacDonald, MacDougall, and MacRory) used seals portraying them in the fashion of knighthood. Feudalism and the kin-based society were not mutually exclusive.
I think that something to consider is that clans were more of a thing of Gaelic culture, and not language. Language is one element of culture, but there are many others. Just because a region had adopted the Gaelic language doesn't mean they had adopted the culture and its practices. Now, to look at the other side of this a bit as well, Picts did have clans. At least, the Cruithne - the Irish Picts - certainly did. All of the names that have or had some form of Gill/Gilla/Giolla in them are of Irish Pictish origin. This would include names like MacGilivray, Gilchrist, Gilmore, MacBride (or. Mac Gille Brighde), and MacTavish (or. Mac Gille sTamhais). So, did Scottish Picts also have clans, or did only Irish Picts have clans because they had been Gaelicized? That would be something to investigate.
@nathanthomson1931..........the picts are scottish not irish,they are believed to be of gallic origins..the pictones . it's gallic in scotland...no the mythical gaelic" nonsense. type in.......macgillvray , name meaning and family history, family crest and coat of arms-house of names......then.......surname database: magillvray last name origin........you will see where he writes..the mac prefix was never used on the name macgilvray......that's because the macs and o's were mostly adopted from scotland by irish nationalists in the 1800s to distance the irish from their anglo-norman roots......then type in......mctavish name meaning, family history,family crest and coat of arms-house of names.......macbride also scottish...,
@@brucecollins641 the Cruithin were Picts in Northern Ireland. Check it out dude
@@nathanthomson1931 lol....a have researched it fer years there is absolutely no archaeological evidence of cruithne ireland. most of your history is fictional or adaptations of other nations histories written by medieval irish monks to create some ancient lineage fer ireland. the irish annals are fake. the first peoples to enter ireland (certainly ulster) came from scotland.. irish medieval irish monks were presenting false fictional tales as a history of ireland. the picts are scottish. maybe you should research them....alang with the mythical gaels of ireland..
@@nathanthomson1931 maybe you should research again...the picts came from scotland. maybe you should enlighten people of the origins of the picts in ireland. from where when and how did they get there?.....same with the mythical gaels...
@brucecollins641 The Cruithin originally spoke a Pictish language. We know this by looking at names. For example, the Scottish clan MacTavish originated in Co. Donegal in the north of Ireland, and it was originally written as Mac Giolla sTamhais. Tamhais (Tavish) is the Pictish form of Thomas, and the 's' in sTamhais is actually a funny character that looks like a cross between an s and a g, and that is a Pictish character. Where did the Cruithin come from? They probably originated in Scotland. Who is to say that people couldn't migrate back and forth across the straight between Ireland and Argyll or Galloway? We know that the Gaelic language and culture came to Scotland from Ireland, so it's entirely likely that Pictish peoples had migrated from Scotland to Ireland before that.
First point, in-regard to the Pictish language, Bede gives us a Pictish word Peanfahel, which a place name now called Kinnneil from the Gaelic Kineil, probably the Gaelization of older Brittonic *Pengual. The place is a compound word meaning “end of the wall (that is the Antonine)”, implying the Pict were bilingual speakers of Brittonic and Gaelic, in Bede’s time the king of the Picts was Nechtain mac Dargairt, leader of Clan Comgaill of Dal Riada, who rules Strathearn west Druim Alban.
Thanks for the response! Have you ever read any of Alex Woolf's work on the Pictish language? He believes it wasn't as uniform as we think and that what was spoken on Skye might have had more Q Celtic features than what was spoken in Fife. Either way, thanks for your thoughts.
I would be interested in hearing more about Woolf's work on the Pictish language. Katherine Forsyth in her 1995 paper "Language of Pictland" (eprints.gla.ac.uk/2081/1/languagepictland.pdf) argued forcefully that Brittonic was the language of northern Britain in Roman times, additionally the Britons Latin clear identified their Picti as north Britons. It is only in Bede that we learn of a Pictish language differed from the Brittonic dialects, at a time when Woolf describes an archaic usage of Latin Picti for the Irish Cruithne [English: Briton] kingdom in Tay river basin (per Amra Cholium Chille), following the arrival of the Dal Riada from NE Co. Antrim (presumably their homeland as the area is named for them, unlike Scotland were land is named for their sub-tribes). Hence, I am left with a problem in regard to your understanding of Pictish words, as I only know of one word identifiable as Pictish, namely Peanfahel and no other. As Dr Forsyth points there has a large amount of wishful thinking by past historians in regard to their understanding the Picts, the Picts seem to be as fable Loch Ness monster, i.e., the creation of furtive imaginations.
Second point, Gaelic dynastic surnames used today to denote clans, like those with Macs and Os, came into existence in the 11th century, based on patrilineal claims to tenth century ancestors. The Clans themselves are ancient, just under going frequent renaming to reflect the leading patrilineal branches. There is sometime a mistaken belief that Clans only came into existence then dynastic surnames were taken!
Totally agree. My most recent podcast episode discusses those earlier kindreds. I do believe that it's important to see that clans are older than the 1100's. The word "clann" began being used to denote a kindred instead of a more literal meaning of "children" in the 900's according to John Bannerman and others. You make great points, Bernard, and I'm glad I have people like you joining in the conversation.
Certainly the Office of Brieve, from the Irish Breitheamh, the genitive form Breitheamhan gives raise to "Brehon", existed in the Outer Hebrides up to the 17th century.
Clan MacTavish originated in Co. Donegal in Northern Ireland as part of the Cenel Connal. They were originally Mac Gillatsamhais, and we're rulers around Sheephaven Bay by no later than 700 AD and had left the area for Scotland no later than 800 AD. Then, the official progenitor, Tamhais Mor (Tavish the Great), was born in Knapdale, Scotland ca 1100 AD.
MacNicol! The indigenous people Skye and Lewis. MacLeod and MacDonald are Norse y-dna. They intermarried with MacNicol Pictish matriarchal lines.
I have some content coming out that I did with Aonghas MacCoinnich from the University of Glasgow. The MacNicols came up during our conversation about the MacLeods of Lewis. Stay tuned.
i cant wait! @@thescottishclans
@@thescottishclans I've also been trying to piece together the MacNicol/Nixon relationship. Im a Nix.