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JAGDTIGER vs SUPER PERSHING | 12.8cm Pzgr. 43 Spaced Armour Piercing Simulation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- The Jagdtiger was the heaviest AFV that saw combat during WW2, fitted with the massive 128mm Pak 44 cannon. This simulation shows it against the Super Pershing's spaced armour at ~750m.
At 28kg, the Pzgr.43 of the Jagdtiger had exceptional penetrative capabilities, being able to penetrate the standard Pershing at any combat range. Despite this, the structural steel spaced armour manages to slow and deflect the projectile by a significant amount. This is due to the spacing of the plates being too close for the projectile to normalise when exiting the back of the previous plate. This normalisation effect can be seen in my Tiger II vs Super Pershing video, as the 88mm shell is much shorter than the 128mm. You can read about this normalisation effect here (for smaller shells with large gaps): apps.dtic.mil/...
For this, and all previous super pershing videos, the structural steel has a yield stress of 350MPa which reflects a medium-high grade struc steel. (im not aware of the boiler plates actual strength as it wasnt never documented)
Amazing Thumbnail work from: Anwin www.cgtrader.c...
![Warhammer 40k: Space Marine 2 | เพื่อจักรพรรดิ ! [ตอนเดียวจบ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4M0ckYMA4-U/mqdefault.jpg)
Although it penetrated and the bursting charge would likely go off, it still surprises me how effective the spaced structural steel is
Assuming the bursting charge didn’t go off, would this be survivable to the crew? The spalling on the final layer of armor seems to be at a very low velocity.
@@jochenheiden this is extremely slowed down, also the shrapnel is super heated, like a frag granade blowing up in there face
@@jochenheiden According to the velocity plot, the big chunk you see flying towards the right is going about 100 m/s still. Pretty lethal at its size if it hits anything.
Honestly though. Gotta remember this is a 128mm AP projectile… it would pass through most things like butter
@@jochenheiden driver - minus face. Other highly likely will survive.
I enjoy the little fact blurbs that you've started adding, it is nice to get a bit of the history and mechanics involved in the simulation presented so conveniently. Maybe you've always done that and I only just noticed for the last few videos :P Either way, keep it up, I appreciate it :D
So, driver is toast again
Allg… just drive to the D point and use Crew Replenishment 👌
The Explosive Charge would kill the entire crew due to over pressure
@@crusher1080
There's not enough explosive filling in that shell to cause any lethal overpressure inside the vehicle. I see people use the term overpressure way too much, not understanding anything about it
Id say everybody just is dead the Explosion and Schrapnell most likely will set off ammo
@@crusher1080 Nah not enough explosives inside to cause overpressure, would kill the driver.
Commander: oof, there goes the driver but luckily we are safe 😄
Almost 1kg of Explosive filler: Are u sure about that? 💀
pretty sure if that explosive went off, would send the remaining projectile inside the tank at high speed
@@mentoriii3475 yup, and those spall chunks. It would be a mess.
Thats if the fuse survived also aphe wasnt as effective as war thunder or games in general make it out to be
@@GerardMenvussa - 460!
@@Klimotine yea but in this instance, if the aphe did detonate then it would be like a big Grenade exploding only about 6-7 feet from the furthest guy
"Driver, Jagdtiger. Quick - angle 30 degrees!". Serious though - wow. Massive pen and a bad day for the Pershing crew. I went back and watched the Tiger II vs Super Pershing and yes, it's plainly visible, the difference in normalization.
Tiger 2 vs Super pershing? You mean cologne tank duel between a panther and a m26?
No, the previous simulation video with the super was against 8.8cm PzGr 39 from a tiger 2, this one was against a 12.8cm.
Normalisation is a MYTH. It doesn't exist and is pure BS made up for computer gameplay mechanics. DJemienXYZ or whatever his name is who also does simulation videos made a video on this subject.
@@WozWozEre English is not my first language but if with "normalisation" you mean angling the vehicle, there are at least a few ww2 tank crew manuals that tech how and why to angle the vehicle in relation to the enemy
@@kiq4767 By normalization he means performance of the shell against sloped armour, when one shell "dig" more into the armour while the other one bounces. For instance blunt nose shell and pointed tip
You're my favorite simulations channel out of the many, since you give historical and mech-solids insights with your simulation runs.
It's both methodical and fun to learn from :)
I forget the extra plates on the Super Pershing we're not hardened. While the round did likely take out the Pershing, I'm still impressed at how the Pershing's armor did against that big round.
I thought the extra plates were from cut up Panthers?
@@johnnycab8986 The extra armor on the turret was from Panthers. The hull armor was boilerplate.
I'd love to see simulations using the 120mm M58 gun (from the M103 and Conqueror heavy tanks). the M58 was supposedly one of the most powerful tank guns ever fielded.
It had, and still has to this day the highest muzzle energy of any fielded tank cannon.
@@pukalo в цифрах, пожалуйста.
@@user-nt6hy6me3k13.4 mega joules
My favourite part is the 2D view with heat visor, that looks so satisfying
Pretty much the result of Jagdtiger vs any production WW2 armored vehicle.
What about the doom turtle?
@@certifiedfreeaboo3790 It didn't go into production as it wasn't needed.
An IS-3 might be able to withstand, those came a few months too late to be production WWII vehicles though
@@blockstacker5614 There were some at the victory parade in Berlin so they were in production before Sep 1945. However, by then anti-tank rounds were designed with a cap to normalize a round against sloped armor so that isn't the advantage it was advertised to be. Plus, the Soviets liked to heat treat their armor to about twice the hardness of Western nations. This made their armor brittle and susceptible to shattering when whacked by a high-velocity AP round. Add to that substandard welding practices and you get that 128mm penetrating a Soviet tank like a (insert favorite rude analogy here).
Always a delight to watch the slow animation simulatingan actual impact.
Crazy, and thanks for making it. I actually mentioned wanting to see this in the is 2 vs super p video, don't know if you saw it or not but it works
A significant emotional event to be sure
A good example of how spaced armor can work wonders against full-size projectiles. Would've been even more effective if they were RHA instead of structural steel. Boiler plate looks to be effective none the less though!
Well, the explosive charge is still there and there is too much spalling. So, I think that the Super Pershing would be knocked out. But when compared to the standard Pershing the difference is really visible.
@@ahmetcumur7590
Oh, the tank is 100% knocked out. But at a greater angle/distance it could've resisted the most powerful AT cannon of the war.
@@ThatZenoGuy yep. I totally agree with you
Can you do .45acp point blank vs Panzer IV vision port as seen in saving private ryan?
it would stop, the vision block of the tiger (the tank depicted in that scene i believe) is able to stop ATLEAST full power rifle rounds, what killed the tiger was the P-51 rocket strafe, i would still like to see that simulation regardless though
@@therealmonsoon9047 Is he perhaps instead talking about when Hanks' character sprayed his Thompson through the vision port of the first immobilized Tiger?
@@mitchwatson6787 maybe, i havent actually seen saving private ryan so i wouldnt know for sure what scene he was on about because ive only seen the one, i do intend to watch it eventually though
Notice how much more energy a regular shell needs vs. a dart. The amount of metal needed to be displaced is HUGE!
I wonder how the turret would hold up seeing as that has actual armour added. combined with the internal spall shield I imagine it could actually keep the crew safe
The turret would fare much worse because they basically slapped Panther’s frontal 80mm plate on its turret, which means the Super Pershing had 180~mm of flat steel at the turret. Both the Tiger 2 and Jagdtiger would easily penetrate it.
Shell basically perforated and when it goes boom that's going to be a Looney tunes style shotgun blasting into the tank.
So unless your spall liner isn't another thick steel plate.
Nope.
I totally thought the 128 would cut through a Super Pershing like butter. Goes to show the effectiveness of spaced armor.
It did cut through like butter though? Seems to even be intact enough to explode. Whole crew dead. Nasty stuff
I thought the supers perishing frontal addons were high hardness boiler plate steel? not merely structural. I wander what effect that would have on the simulation.
Boiler plate is not especially hard, because it has to sustain a lot of tension/pressure. You don't want a boiler to ever crack or fracture! That is how they explode!
Kind of amazing how much the structural steel changed the trajectory of the shell. Might work against 88 or 75
750 meters is really close range for a tank engagement. I'm amazed it held up so well given the close range
*laughs in war thunder 1 meter engagements*
no, most tank to tank kills in ww2 happned between 600 and 800M
@@cantthinkofabetteruser All the time there is some1 who adds warthunder to the reply section
@@rafaykhanyousefzai “ok and?” 🤓
@@cantthinkofabetteruser please just shut up
Could you do this same simulation but use the 12,8/8,8 Pzgr.TS shell instead of the PzGr 43. I’m wondering if it would penetrate the armour or would the decreased mass make it less effective against the sloped armour.
that shell was only experimental and failed because it shattered often
Wow so war thunder actually got something right. I shot a super Pershing with a sturer Emil, which has the same~ish shell at about 1000m and it penned the upper plate
I'd like to see this same simulation but switching the places of the main and spaced armor - main armor in front, and the spaced armor at the back
War thunder: best I can do is non-pen
JagdTiger is life, JagdTiger is love, he never die !!!
Rip crew
Imagine if they did it backwards. 100mm traditional armor steel, 50mm hardened steel mid plate(softer than steel penetrator core), and 25mm high hardness steel outer plate (harder than steel penetrator core). Outer plate cracks the round like a passive ERA plate, mid plate stops it more, and main plate stops the shrapnel along with any continuation of the round.
keep in mind, even though the shell got stuck in the last bit of armor, it is at this point the explosive filler would go off, which would kill the entire tank's crew. Also even if there were no explosive filler, there was a lot of spalling generated which is obviously no bueno for the crew either.
That shell has a really big cavity for HE. I wonder how much effect the bursting charge would have. I understand it is really hard on the simulation but I wish we could see what it would do!
800g of TNT = dead crew.
Where in the simulation would the bursting charge have done its deal? If the shell suddenly lost weight and stability before reaching the hull, there may be a completely different outcome, especially since it changed directions in there.
47mm Japanese anti tank gun vs M4A4 Sherman front armour. Side armour if possible?
Hello sir. We need to test t90m with heat charge. Thanks
Who is remember IS-2 vs. Super Pershing? Jagdtiger goes on the rampage 🔥
Really enjoy your CFD sims!
Any chance you could add a banana for scale in a future one?
Glad to see that you're showing the whole simulation nowadays
I'd like to see a comparison where the same shell hit one single steel plate of the same combined thickness. To see how much of the effect is from spacing the plates, and how much simply from having a lot of metal in front of the shell.
You should do one of these but speed up the recording of it to roughly match the actual velocity
Let's imagine that you'd get teleported back in time and are in charge of modifying the Pershing, what would you do differently? (your current knowledge, but only materials and techniques of the past)
Good question, a realistic modification that could be done is having a steeper upper glacis, at ~55-60°, reduced thickness to 2.5", with two 1" plates spaced 100mm apart, but made out of armoured steel instead, and at the same angle as the main armour. This would stop any projectile of the era, being most effective against APCR, but a simple 4-5" (100-125mm) plate at 60° would be more than enough, and more space efficient
I think everybody in that tank is now having a bad day
Everyone has an significant emotional event in the tank.
@@External2737
A very brief one
Is it possible that you could do one with a heat round against a modern T-72 or something of the sort, I’m also interested in seeing you do a HE round.
So would it denotate after the last penetration or would be there a chance that it detonates before and thus not penetrating it ?
Probably after as theres a decent delay
Somebody get this to Gaijin. If a 128mm barely penetrates the Super Pershing's upper glacis, then German 88's and Russian 100's shouldn't pen.
The long 88's arent far behind in penn power. But for sure, the 128 mm has some kinetic energy advantage.
Damn two 38mm layers of spaced out armor plus the main hull armor and it still almost went through
Effectively did go through. The burst charge would have been a kill.
I wish you would also simulate the bursting charge. In this case, I guess the charge would go off after penetrating the first layer, shattering the shell and stopping further penetration?
There's a delay so it would only burst in or after the main armour
@@SYsimulations Ok, thanks, didn't know the delay was so long.
The crew still gets killed by spalling, yes?
Yes, and the fuse.
The burst charge would have delayed then detonated. The front crew are gone.
@@External2737 Driver and radioman. The most important people in a potential 40ton paper weight.
That went better for the Pershing than I thought it would...still didn't go well, but hey
Me too. But Imagine the explosive filler going up Like it is meant to. The Crew simply wouldn't exist animore even at this outcome.
Imagine if all late WWII tanks were designed with spaced armor
the weight, space to mount the armor and maintenance would be rather hard to handle on a large-scale basis. that's why not a lot of tanks saw spaced armor installed as a main feature instead of improvised extra armor
Awesome! Would be interesting to see the guns it was most likely to see, too.
My understanding of the Super Pershing though was that the aplique armor was not boiler plate or structural steel but RHA plates welded on from dismantled panther tanks. Curious what the result would be if that is the case
I wonder if the mild steel plates would cause enough deceleration rate to trip the base fuse and potentially cause the bursting charge to go off before it is through the actual armor. The first one doesn't look like it has enough but the second maybe cause it's starting to turn on impact.
It has , but the HE filler has some kind of time fuse . So it explodes in the middle of the tank and not outside of it .
Like 5CO7 said, the shell has a fuse. Otto Carius used that to his advantage, shooting through an entire building to try and hit a Sherman on the other side. The timing was perfect, the shell went through the brick house, penetrated the tank and detonated inside, causing the entire turret to fly off.
And if the angle of impact was not at 0 degrees, the shot likely wouldn't do so much damage to the rear plate. Excellent armour structure.
Another one that matches coh2 relic was on point with these damn
А взрыватель не успеет сработать после пробития первого слоя брони?
very cool, thanks for the video!
But don't forget the fact that the shell would explode, and it it already made a hole in the mane armor, so the explosion would kill I think everyone in the tank
What happens if the first plate is angled in the opposites direction ?
Can you let the simulation continue to show the shell travels till the end? It always stops in the midst.
One should not underestimate the PAK 44 cannon.
Yep,by far the strongest anti tank gun used in WW2.
Could you do IS-6 122mm solid AP vs super Pershing low on the lower plate right in the center. I wonder if the armour at that angle could make the round glance into the dirt 🤔
Likely death for the driver and assistant driver but the turret crew would probably be fine no?
Nah, I think everyone is screwed.
Driver and radio operator are obliterated, turret crew is just dead. Like, very much dead.
@@yuriysukhorukov391 I don’t know, the fragments on the back weren’t moving very fast and it didn’t look like they were spreading much to either side. Given how high in the turret the turret crew are I think they’d be relatively safe. Or at least alive enough to bail out
@@viperlabs7735 If the HE filler goes of , 500g of TNT , they are all dead . If not maybe the turret crew is safe , but they bail out for sure .
@@5co756 I’m not sure if the fuse would have gone off honestly given the angle at which the shell impacts the armor. I’m surprised it didn’t shear off actually
The fuse is a timed fuse. If not a dud, which a third would be, it would go off. 500g vs 52g is the US pineapple (Mk II) grenade. So 8x of a US grenade. Or 3x a stick grenade. Ouch.
This is Ansys?
Would the crew be injured in this case?
yes sir. spalling from inside the tank, the armour chunks flying around, all at several hundred degrees hot, pluse the explosive filler of the shell would send a shockwave and further spalling or fragments into the tank - the driver is mush one way or another
If it isn't done already Sherman firefly vs panther in the hull, with the firefly using the APCBC shot
Can you vompare with the t26e5? Side by side so we can see which one protects better against the 12.8
Heavy T34 firing at Tiger II's uper glacis at 600 meters APCBC not APCR
Seeing how much the first layer tilt the projectile Up, I wonder how the armor would hold if the second layer were angle down instead of up. At the same angle of the first layer…
could you do the t26-E1-1 with it’s t41 shell vs the tiger 2h’s turret face.
How would leo 2a4 fare i wonder. Because armour here is really thick
I wish playing Jagdtiger on warthunder was actually fun and was more armor meta.
mate even then you would just get your barrel shot and your tacks 50 cal'd
The only way to truly enjoy the 128mm is the Maus, because that can actually take a hit. Jagdtiger got powercreeped HARD
The only inaccuracy with this simulation is the angle of the plates. Due to the weight of the added plates, the front of the tank dipped, reducing the angle of the plates.
Its accounted for, the main armour normally is 45° iirc, but here its 43°
Interesting ask: how tiger 2 with 88 mm gun can pen Pershing 180 mm turret?
Beautiful, can you make jagertiger vs is3 please ? Thx
Can you make KV-2 152mm HE vs Jagdtiger roof pls?
This video does not show the effect of the explosive substance
May I suggest Mark V tank (WW1) against .... Anything? thanks👍
Yikes it hurts even by watching a simulation.
Quite a bad day if the Jagdtiger was on the line with the sight...
Does this omit the explosive filler?
T62 vs Super Pershing ?
It’s likely the shell would still detonate killing a lot of crew, and if not then the driver will not be doing so hot.
Do another round vs super Pershing
Interesting that it still penetrated despite being stopped.
i miss simulation sherman firefly against jagdtiger front fire
Gaijin seriously either needs to buff Pak 44 a litle bit or slightly reduce the effectiveness of sloped armor for most tanks.
IS 7 vs M103 Turret shot to the gun mantlet please
At what point would the HE filler be set off?
I wonder if the spaced armor would make the round fuse early?
Maybe this helps explain why this appliqué armour to create a Super Pershing seems to have been more effective in real action, than this inert projectile simulation would seem to indicate? If it goes BOOM! outside the actual hull, then I don't think (but might be wrong) that the shockwave would do too much to the regular armour built into the hull.
nope, the shell has to travel another 1 meter inside the tank even after the fuse has been set off. itst a fuse delay
"Yes! A hit!"
"Driver is unconscious"
were the extra plates from panthers?
The mantle plate was, but not the hull plates I believe.
Take #2 on a request of mine.
I’m curious to see how sand armour would fare against apfsds or heat shell infront of a tank. For the scenario (being a bit unrealistic here), you can have 50-70mm of sand; with a 5mm thick sheet metal acting as a container. The tank used can be an export model t-55 (without the ERA bricks) and the sand is placed on the front hull.
For the round used, it can be a later generation 105mm or American 120mm apfsds/heat round. Distance set can be of your liking.
Thank you in advance and have a nice day
Unfortunately I will never be able to do that as sand or any particulate material is extremely demanding for a pc to simulate, sorry
@@SYsimulations well, we can replace that sand with something more solid i guess. How about using bricks? I know you simulated a cast concrete sherman armour before but, do you think this would be worth your time?
Can you simulate 130mm m-26, mounted on experimental isu-130, against tiger 2 ufp? Or 122mm bl-9 (isu-122-1)
S-26 not M-26
@SY Simulations Today I've had a conversation on the "IL-2 Sturmovik" forums about Churchill tanks resistance vs german guns and it made me remember asking you a while back for a simulation of british double layer tank armour (RHA + structural steel backing).
My intuition tells me that such combination would not be equivalent to an RHA plate of total combined thickness (unlike some people think).
I think the rear plate would provide more protection on angled hits, so I would suggest a comparison of Cromwell's turret side armour (2in. RHA + 1/2in structural steel) at 55° angle against 7.5cm PzGr.39 at around 700m/s with a 2in. RHA plate without backing.
Interesting idea, I hadnt heard of the British doing that; what it just for trials? And how did it to? Because against all projectiles except tungsten carbide, 2 layered plates are less effective than a single of equal thickness. Except for some types of reflector or NERA plates. The americans did a study on layered plates vs WC cores, where the tiny gap caused on impact was enough for the core to shatter and reduced penetration
@@SYsimulations No, it was the standard practice for all british designs with riveted armour. An internal mild steel frame was welded together and then the actual armour plates where bolted on it. If you search for _cromwell internal armour_ there is a good schematic made by soviets of this arrangement, posted on tankarchives a while back.
The inner layer was made from "I.T. 110" carbon-manganese steel where "110" indicates the (I)mpact (T)oughness (I dont know in what units, but the normal RHA was "I.T. 80" so you can estimate). You can find a lot of useful data on WarThunder forums.
Oh wow, thanks for turning me towards that, I thought it was just a hollow frame they bolted the armour to, like scaffolding...not a solid frame. I still think it would be weaker than a solid plate, but its interesting that the frame has higher 'impact toughness' than the RHA, meaning it isnt just structural steel. iirc the British aimed for ~250BHN for their thick rolled and cast armour so I'd guess the frame would be about 300BHN. Do you have a source of the I.T. 100 and 110 numbers you gave?
I may simulate that sometime
@@SYsimulations As I'm sure you know, the hardness and toughness of a given type of steel are inversely proportional, if one is greater the other must be lower. It's a complex non-linear function of tempering temperature.
I was able to find that the magnesium-carbon steel from which the backing plate was made is sometimes called "Hadfield steel". It wasn't the same steel as the normal thin RHA of that gauge, but a different material that responds differently to deformation, so a custom material model would be required for an accurate simulation.
I cant find where I saw this information about british armor steel, it was a scan from a book posted on WT forums. (no, it wasn't the WW2:BAG book)
Ah yes, my bad, I got mixed up with the hardness and toughness numbers. But, yes, I imagine the structural frame would be of good quality seen as its IT is so similar, so an approximate 200-220bhn steel can be used in its place as a decent approximation. And as you say, this will be tougher and more ductile, deforming more with the penetration.
I'll get to it at some point but I have quite a few things lined up for now :)
which app are you using?
Can you simulate the 12" AP SHS that USS Puerto Rico used against the Upper Hull of a JagdTiger? Or maybe a Maus?
How about the sturmtiger?
WHERE DO I FIND THIS
Is it possible to see these in real time
Btw would you mind a super Pershing penetration against the king tiger like around 1000m or 1100m something like far range because it can highly penetrate king tiger around 600m or 500m
Where?Turret?Probably it can at 500-600 meters but not more than that.But there is no way it stands a chance against King Tiger’s upper frontal plate.
Wonder why other tanks didn’t use asbestos tarps inside the tanks? Japanese did but their tanks were made out of thin steel, like cardboard.