You go to a teacher because you acknowledge you are ignorant of something they know. A 'Democracy' in this case is just the students deciding what's going to be taught to them, as if they already know. If you already know, then why are you even there?
Being a 'terrible' leader is actually a sign of honesty in this case. A teacher is terrible usually because he doesn't believe what he is teaching. The rhinoceros-of-doubt is dominant in him. And that doubt manifests as a lack of conviction and the power to motivate. But in this case its just Brad being honest with himself.
The core problem of this is that the ”roshis” of America have no true presence and samadhi power. When someone with that power steps into a room, it’s like a badass cat walking into a room full of mice and the mice sense it. In the absence of a badass cat roshi, the Americans do what the Americans always do. If you ask me, the only Westerner with real presence is Jeff Shore but then again he’s lived in Japan for 40 years.
I am very suspicious of such "samadhi power." I don't trust it at all. I stay far away from anyone who exhibits anything like that. I've never met Jeff Shore, so I can't say whether he's a guy I'd stay away from or not.
@ I understand what you mean but I wrote presence and samadhi power. Besides, samadhi power is not just any kind of power or charisma. Soto roshis prior to around mid-1800’s had that based on their calligraphies. Since then, not so much.
@@HardcoreZen The word Samadhi means to-bring-together, as opposed to wandering all over the place, pulled this way and that way by fears and desires. You have probably never experienced this for anymore than a few seconds. In Dogen's text Zanmai O-Zanmai he quotes his own teacher describing it as "dropping through the body-mind" which takes the meaning one step further.
Hey Brad, (if that's OK to call you) is it? How do you like to be addressed? I have an off-topic question. A few towns over there is a huge fancy graveyard. And in the back of the valley of graves is a Buddhist temple. Well, actually, it's a 1/3rd replica of a temple in Japan, so it's mostly a tourist trap, with no actual monks or snagha connected to it. My best friend's memorial bench is on the temple property, so I can go for free anytime. It's quite a beautiful temple it's called Byodo-In temple if you wanna look it up. They have (I think 30ft tall statue of Buddha, quite impressive. My ritual is to go in and offer incense gassho 3 times for the 3 jewels. But here's the part I can't get a straight answer for online sources. By the entrance is a huge bell, approximately a yard in diameter at the opening. There is a big log that you swing to ring the bell. Could you explain (in simpleton words😂) what this is? The meaning behind it, and how one is to properly ring it? Thanks for any info!🙏🪷
That sort of bell is a standard feature at Buddhist temples in Japan (maybe elsewhere too, I don't know). In the old days, telling time was one of the functions of a temple - the monks kept track of the time and used the bell to tell the rest of the village what time it was. This was before mechanical clocks existed, so I'm not entirely certain how the monks knew what time it was. These days most folks have clocks, so the bells are used differently. Sometimes there's a ceremonial aspect. I never lived at a temple with one of those bells, so I don't really know all their functions. I would avoid ringing that bell myself since it might have a specific function. Maybe ask the people at the temple.
@HardcoreZen well it's not a functioning temple. As in, there are no monks or priests. And all the tourists ring the heck out of it. So I guess I'll just ring it my normal 3 times. Thanks for taking the time to answer me
Three possible parallels that occurred to me: 1. I've read that it's common for religious and spiritual groups to be mismanaged to varying capacities because they often tend to assign administrative positions based on their level of knowledge of their respective traditions, which usually have relatively little to do with understanding the practicalities of running an organization. Knowing the Bible doesn't mean you know how to balance a budget, but people often assume that it does; that "insight" makes you universally good at things. I think it might be an expression of the so-called "halo effect". 2. There's some debate in left-wing circles about how the co-op format might be applied to the creator economy. The main thing that makes most conventional co-op models an awkward fit is that if you're a large creator with a business built around you, you're not just the boss, you're also the *product.* While there are aspects of your business that may successfully be democratized, and may even benefit from it according to some, democratizing the actual creative output might not work as well. 3. Any ordinary American school, any level. Being the best at geography or biology doesn't mean you'll be a good dean. Being the principal doesn't mean you're better at math than the math professors.
"So we go to a monastery specifically to have some authority figure force us to do what we believe we need to do." I personally want to go to a monastery (and have always wanted to go to a monastery) because practice in a community must fundamentally be different from practice at home. Am I supposed to shave my head, buy robes and somehow perform all of the different roles myself? Also, how would I know what I need to do without a teacher?
People are buffoons and just want to be on top and heard. They want to feel they matter and what they do is right and what others do is wrong. Zen is beyond all that bullshit. Zen should be free of politics; free of social issues; free of opinions (meaning if you go to a center/zendo, you do what is asked of you). But people just want to be the boss. So I love Brads view -- "Just shut up and shit"! Clean and simple.
Maybe some people go to sangha not because they are looking for someone to impose discpline from the outside but because they want to share the experience with other people.
The myth of the enlightened leader-how many times have we gone down that perilous route. Monasteries run on hierarchy, not the enlightened master. The schedule rules, the practice rules, and there is a healthy stable system. Throw in an enlightened leader and a bunch of gewgaw followers and there is psychological mayhem, if not worse. The zen center model is based on the religious commune model-how long do those last? And they are also modeled on corporations with boards of directors-and the enlightened CEO so-called. You are not the only one who us terrible at dictatorship, Brad. Everyone is. I think a neighborhood church would be a better model for Zen in America. Or the lowly sitting group. The enlightened master becomes a dharma teacher not a dictator, priests do rituals, not run corporations. Practitioners have their jobs, families and independent financial lives. And monks go live in monasteries much as they have for a couple of thousand years living under a religious “rule” ie the rule of St Benedict. The abbots are senior practitioners-not enlightened masters
This isn’t just the case with American but also with Asians who turned North American. I’m from a first generation immigrant community and when I was growing up there was no such thing as a Buddhist temple ran by laity, now there are many. More common now I know of Temples that are run totally by laity because they treat the Asian monks like unpaid workers: just feed and clothes them. All authority of the monks and nuns are taken away, often they even tell them what to teach. This resulted in many monastics leaving these temples and they end up having no resident teacher but only visiting ones. Laity run temples then only has ceremonial purposes and for community gatherings. It’s such a shame because they end up not knowing Buddhism properly and full of ignorance. Then there is the other extreme where abbots abuse power. The best balance is the teacher being the leader and often sought advice and support from students. It’s still not a democracy.
Buddhism isn’t a Protestant religion- that’s the core issue here. A lot of the west is steeped in the protestant ideal- even non-Christians. “What matters is what I think about it.” That’s what’s happening here; until that issue can be resolved I don’t think we will have a true western lineage. Maybe there are western temples that don’t have this issue- idk. My experience has been with a Chinese lineage so maybe I’m wrong.
The nature of spiritual teaching is not democratic. How ridiculous is it to expect it done in a system where the majority view in a group, including that of other authorities, stake holders and even the student body decide the way to go forward or the beliefs to be accepted!? One of the fundamental aspects of serious spiritual learning is surrender, I.e., for the "student" to drop his/her ego to the teacher. One has to be courageous as well as humble to do this. You go in believing you have something (usually, a lot) to get from the teacher and, to a certain extent, open to unlearn to learn. But this doesn't mean you've locked yourself in a prison of handed-down spiritual beliefs forever. Whenever you feel what is being taught isn't making sense to you, you have the freedom to question the teacher, and if you don't agree with the responses, simply get up, thank her (genuinely), and go away. You don't try and whip up support in the group with the aim of modifying an idea or concept expounded by the guru. I know this is a simplistic view of the topic, and it's conditioned by my being an Indian in India.
the obsession with putting democracy in everything has always seemed odd to me. why give the wheel to the blind and sighted alike? isnt the point of learning and teaching that someone else knows things you do not?
@@Diomedes99 don't get me wrong, people ought to have as much freedom as reasonable, but democratizing these types of things is almost like a race to the bottom. how can novices be skilled enough to separate fluff from stuff?
@reedrichards8677 i agree. If everyone has an opinion and wants to be respected it's a huge distraction from the 4 noble truths. Im not anti democratic either but I see the issue when every loud idiot with an opinion gets power and can lord over the community with their own self serving interests. It can go bad under the philosopher king model too..... i suppose that's why the precepts and rules are so important especially for leadership.
Was Zen Buddhism ever democratic in Japan? Yes, but the monks used violence instead of voting. The Naginata instead of the ballot box. These were not soy-boys...they were iron-fisted warriors called 'Sohei'. Usually violence broke out because some political leader wanted to appoint his clueless nephew to the position of Abbott...and the monks rebelled. Sometimes the violence was motivated by dishonorable etiquette on the part of the temple leadership. In America, mutiny in the Zendo is usually motivated by the leader himself, because the 'Zen Masters' are very often people who cant even lead themselves...never mind a Sangha.
I think your terms are confused. A dictator feeds the people a contradiction to maintain power. A real philosopher-king a priori abolishes contradictions. Democracy itself is not even directly opposed to kings as constitutional monarchies have existed. The United States as a country though was founded as a country without and against kings. I think you could likely also add "Zen isn't opposed to democracy" to this list.
Zen is not opposed to democracy. Within a Zen sangha, democracy doesn't work, but Zen temples, monasteries, and centers seem to flourish only in countries with some form of democracy.
In a very dark way indeed. Warping Buddhist teachings on emptiness' to such an extent that killing people was OK if it was part of the Imperial war effort. Brian Victoria's 'Zen at war' is thoroughly researched and interesting to read the writings of 'Zen masters' in the 1930s and early 1940s that were not previously translated into English. The rather opaque 'dharma politics' of Tibetan Buddhist traditions is also visible if the rose tinted glasses favoured by many Western viewers are removed.
@HardcoreZen because it's politics. I get it that Buddhism is notorious for being political, but the zen crowd should understand that the only people worth listening to are those who spend a lot of time with a quiet mind and good posture. Westerners have to spend a long time shedding their politics before they can start to learn how to listen, let alone talk. What you say about eastern cultures is interesting but it might just mean that the West needs more time
It's hard to understand what Brad wants. If he said that DSLA was a Non-profit I missed it. Does he want the benefits of a non-profit, which requires a board of directors, or does he want to be the sole decider, which is illegal for a non-profit.
You go to a teacher because you acknowledge you are ignorant of something they know. A 'Democracy' in this case is just the students deciding what's going to be taught to them, as if they already know. If you already know, then why are you even there?
Beautifully put. Love the honesty ms humour. 👍🙏🏽😊👏🏿
Being a 'terrible' leader is actually a sign of honesty in this case.
A teacher is terrible usually because he doesn't believe what he is teaching.
The rhinoceros-of-doubt is dominant in him.
And that doubt manifests as a lack of conviction and the power to motivate.
But in this case its just Brad being honest with himself.
Thank you Brad, this has been great
We agreed no leader right? So shut up and do as I say! (Time Bandits)
Does that make Brad an Uji Band-it?
😂
Well, I am sure, so called democracy in an American Zen Center is a sign that there is no master (no roshi, no guru) in this place.
More to the point...no enlightenment.
When I was on a board, we dealt with the business end but the teachers had total authority over training.
I wonder if this will be a topic in the book you are writing about Zen in A America ... which I can't wait to read!
The core problem of this is that the ”roshis” of America have no true presence and samadhi power. When someone with that power steps into a room, it’s like a badass cat walking into a room full of mice and the mice sense it. In the absence of a badass cat roshi, the Americans do what the Americans always do. If you ask me, the only Westerner with real presence is Jeff Shore but then again he’s lived in Japan for 40 years.
I am very suspicious of such "samadhi power." I don't trust it at all. I stay far away from anyone who exhibits anything like that. I've never met Jeff Shore, so I can't say whether he's a guy I'd stay away from or not.
@ I understand what you mean but I wrote presence and samadhi power. Besides, samadhi power is not just any kind of power or charisma. Soto roshis prior to around mid-1800’s had that based on their calligraphies. Since then, not so much.
@@HardcoreZen "I am very suspicious of such "samadhi power."
Thats because you dont believe in Samadhi.
Without Samadhi there is no Buddhism.
@ What is samadhi? Tell me, please.
@@HardcoreZen The word Samadhi means to-bring-together, as opposed to wandering all over the place, pulled this way and that way by fears and desires. You have probably never experienced this for anymore than a few seconds. In Dogen's text Zanmai O-Zanmai he quotes his own teacher describing it as "dropping through the body-mind" which takes the meaning one step further.
Hey Brad, (if that's OK to call you) is it? How do you like to be addressed?
I have an off-topic question.
A few towns over there is a huge fancy graveyard. And in the back of the valley of graves is a Buddhist temple. Well, actually, it's a 1/3rd replica of a temple in Japan, so it's mostly a tourist trap, with no actual monks or snagha connected to it. My best friend's memorial bench is on the temple property, so I can go for free anytime. It's quite a beautiful temple it's called Byodo-In temple if you wanna look it up. They have (I think 30ft tall statue of Buddha, quite impressive. My ritual is to go in and offer incense gassho 3 times for the 3 jewels.
But here's the part I can't get a straight answer for online sources.
By the entrance is a huge bell, approximately a yard in diameter at the opening. There is a big log that you swing to ring the bell.
Could you explain (in simpleton words😂) what this is? The meaning behind it, and how one is to properly ring it?
Thanks for any info!🙏🪷
That sort of bell is a standard feature at Buddhist temples in Japan (maybe elsewhere too, I don't know). In the old days, telling time was one of the functions of a temple - the monks kept track of the time and used the bell to tell the rest of the village what time it was. This was before mechanical clocks existed, so I'm not entirely certain how the monks knew what time it was. These days most folks have clocks, so the bells are used differently. Sometimes there's a ceremonial aspect. I never lived at a temple with one of those bells, so I don't really know all their functions.
I would avoid ringing that bell myself since it might have a specific function. Maybe ask the people at the temple.
@HardcoreZen well it's not a functioning temple. As in, there are no monks or priests. And all the tourists ring the heck out of it. So I guess I'll just ring it my normal 3 times.
Thanks for taking the time to answer me
Maybe you could do a recap of what Dogen ment about zazen, meditation. Cause I have a nagging idea I'm doing it wrong.
It's one of my FAQ's (How Can I Tell If I'm Doing Zazen Right): hardcorezen.info/faq
Three possible parallels that occurred to me:
1. I've read that it's common for religious and spiritual groups to be mismanaged to varying capacities because they often tend to assign administrative positions based on their level of knowledge of their respective traditions, which usually have relatively little to do with understanding the practicalities of running an organization. Knowing the Bible doesn't mean you know how to balance a budget, but people often assume that it does; that "insight" makes you universally good at things. I think it might be an expression of the so-called "halo effect".
2. There's some debate in left-wing circles about how the co-op format might be applied to the creator economy. The main thing that makes most conventional co-op models an awkward fit is that if you're a large creator with a business built around you, you're not just the boss, you're also the *product.* While there are aspects of your business that may successfully be democratized, and may even benefit from it according to some, democratizing the actual creative output might not work as well.
3. Any ordinary American school, any level. Being the best at geography or biology doesn't mean you'll be a good dean. Being the principal doesn't mean you're better at math than the math professors.
"So we go to a monastery specifically to have some authority figure force us to do what we believe we need to do." I personally want to go to a monastery (and have always wanted to go to a monastery) because practice in a community must fundamentally be different from practice at home. Am I supposed to shave my head, buy robes and somehow perform all of the different roles myself? Also, how would I know what I need to do without a teacher?
You should just find a monastery and go.
People are buffoons and just want to be on top and heard. They want to feel they matter and what they do is right and what others do is wrong.
Zen is beyond all that bullshit. Zen should be free of politics; free of social issues; free of opinions (meaning if you go to a center/zendo, you do what is asked of you). But people just want to be the boss. So I love Brads view -- "Just shut up and shit"! Clean and simple.
thank you. yes and yes
Maybe some people go to sangha not because they are looking for someone to impose discpline from the outside but because they want to share the experience with other people.
Yeah. When I talked about people wanting discipline imposed upon them, I was talking about monasteries specifically rather than sangha in general.
@@HardcoreZen Fair enough!
Couldn't agree more.
White Snake 🎵 "Once bitten, twice shy baby 🎵🙏
Great White
Whitesnake is also good 😊
White Snake? Really? I'd never have guess it was them!
@@iansmith8783 OH! Not Whitesnake>?
@@iansmith8783 lol
When your apartment becomes your cave and society becomes a strange place, you go so you can return to your cave to contemplate nothingness.
When a organization becomes a 501 C3 do they need a board? This might be the reason why it’s such an American thing
You're correct!
The myth of the enlightened leader-how many times have we gone down that perilous route. Monasteries run on hierarchy, not the enlightened master. The schedule rules, the practice rules, and there is a healthy stable system. Throw in an enlightened leader and a bunch of gewgaw followers and there is psychological mayhem, if not worse. The zen center model is based on the religious commune model-how long do those last? And they are also modeled on corporations with boards of directors-and the enlightened CEO so-called. You are not the only one who us terrible at dictatorship, Brad. Everyone is. I think a neighborhood church would be a better model for Zen in America. Or the lowly sitting group. The enlightened master becomes a dharma teacher not a dictator, priests do rituals, not run corporations. Practitioners have their jobs, families and independent financial lives. And monks go live in monasteries much as they have for a couple of thousand years living under a religious “rule” ie the rule of St Benedict. The abbots are senior practitioners-not enlightened masters
Good points. Although I think someone needs to be in charge. And replacing that someone with a committee is usually a mistake.
Once bitten twice shy is Great White
This isn’t just the case with American but also with Asians who turned North American. I’m from a first generation immigrant community and when I was growing up there was no such thing as a Buddhist temple ran by laity, now there are many. More common now I know of Temples that are run totally by laity because they treat the Asian monks like unpaid workers: just feed and clothes them. All authority of the monks and nuns are taken away, often they even tell them what to teach. This resulted in many monastics leaving these temples and they end up having no resident teacher but only visiting ones. Laity run temples then only has ceremonial purposes and for community gatherings. It’s such a shame because they end up not knowing Buddhism properly and full of ignorance. Then there is the other extreme where abbots abuse power. The best balance is the teacher being the leader and often sought advice and support from students. It’s still not a democracy.
We need teachers of dharma, not dictators of dharma.
It's all delusion, so it doesn't matter. Let it be, just as it is.
Buddhism isn’t a Protestant religion- that’s the core issue here. A lot of the west is steeped in the protestant ideal- even non-Christians. “What matters is what I think about it.” That’s what’s happening here; until that issue can be resolved I don’t think we will have a true western lineage. Maybe there are western temples that don’t have this issue- idk. My experience has been with a Chinese lineage so maybe I’m wrong.
The nature of spiritual teaching is not democratic. How ridiculous is it to expect it done in a system where the majority view in a group, including that of other authorities, stake holders and even the student body decide the way to go forward or the beliefs to be accepted!? One of the fundamental aspects of serious spiritual learning is surrender, I.e., for the "student" to drop his/her ego to the teacher. One has to be courageous as well as humble to do this. You go in believing you have something (usually, a lot) to get from the teacher and, to a certain extent, open to unlearn to learn. But this doesn't mean you've locked yourself in a prison of handed-down spiritual beliefs forever. Whenever you feel what is being taught isn't making sense to you, you have the freedom to question the teacher, and if you don't agree with the responses, simply get up, thank her (genuinely), and go away. You don't try and whip up support in the group with the aim of modifying an idea or concept expounded by the guru.
I know this is a simplistic view of the topic, and it's conditioned by my being an Indian in India.
Is this like Technocracy ? Specialists in charge of their specialist domains? Less authority to ignoramuses
the obsession with putting democracy in everything has always seemed odd to me. why give the wheel to the blind and sighted alike? isnt the point of learning and teaching that someone else knows things you do not?
Plato thought democracy was stupid, too, which leads us comfortably to the philosopher king model.
@@Diomedes99 don't get me wrong, people ought to have as much freedom as reasonable, but democratizing these types of things is almost like a race to the bottom. how can novices be skilled enough to separate fluff from stuff?
@reedrichards8677 i agree. If everyone has an opinion and wants to be respected it's a huge distraction from the 4 noble truths.
Im not anti democratic either but I see the issue when every loud idiot with an opinion gets power and can lord over the community with their own self serving interests.
It can go bad under the philosopher king model too..... i suppose that's why the precepts and rules are so important especially for leadership.
Was Zen Buddhism ever democratic in Japan?
Yes, but the monks used violence instead of voting. The Naginata instead of the ballot box. These were not soy-boys...they were iron-fisted warriors called 'Sohei'. Usually violence broke out because some political leader wanted to appoint his clueless nephew to the position of Abbott...and the monks rebelled. Sometimes the violence was motivated by dishonorable etiquette on the part of the temple leadership.
In America, mutiny in the Zendo is usually motivated by the leader himself, because the 'Zen Masters' are very often people who cant even lead themselves...never mind a Sangha.
I think your terms are confused. A dictator feeds the people a contradiction to maintain power. A real philosopher-king a priori abolishes contradictions. Democracy itself is not even directly opposed to kings as constitutional monarchies have existed. The United States as a country though was founded as a country without and against kings. I think you could likely also add "Zen isn't opposed to democracy" to this list.
Zen is not opposed to democracy. Within a Zen sangha, democracy doesn't work, but Zen temples, monasteries, and centers seem to flourish only in countries with some form of democracy.
Question, did zen get involved in politics in Japan, as it seems this video is attempting to infuse zen into politics.
Yes
@@Not-so-cool-name uh… what?
In a very dark way indeed. Warping Buddhist teachings on emptiness' to such an extent that killing people was OK if it was part of the Imperial war effort. Brian Victoria's 'Zen at war' is thoroughly researched and interesting to read the writings of 'Zen masters' in the 1930s and early 1940s that were not previously translated into English. The rather opaque 'dharma politics' of Tibetan Buddhist traditions is also visible if the rose tinted glasses favoured by many Western viewers are removed.
Did you watch the video AT ALL? It has nothing to do with "infusing Zen into politics."
Yes, buddhism was politicized in Japan, and the aristocracy sometimes fought and killed rebellious sects.
It's disturbing that you spend time on this.
Why?
@HardcoreZen because it's politics. I get it that Buddhism is notorious for being political, but the zen crowd should understand that the only people worth listening to are those who spend a lot of time with a quiet mind and good posture. Westerners have to spend a long time shedding their politics before they can start to learn how to listen, let alone talk. What you say about eastern cultures is interesting but it might just mean that the West needs more time
It's hard to understand what Brad wants. If he said that DSLA was a Non-profit I missed it. Does he want the benefits of a non-profit, which requires a board of directors, or does he want to be the sole decider, which is illegal for a non-profit.
@ I never wanted to have anything to do with “non profits.” This was sold to me as necessary. It never was.