It’s always, for a Saffer like me, a mixture of sadness and pride to see our locally born players playing for other countries. That Duhan van der Merwe, especially! What a talent!
Scotland/Edinburgh rescued his career SA didn't want him. He feels a debt of gratitude towards towards us after SA abandoned him (capped at 21s). Edinburgh signed him even though he failed his medical from Montpellier & need hip surgery.
George North is a perfect example of why the headline numbers can be misleading. Welsh speaker from North Wales but happened to be born over the border so categorised in most places as foreign. Glad you did a further breakdown of the stats to show the numbers below the headline
Yep shouldn't count in the uk, plenty of people living and working over the 'borders'. I've played with many Welsh lads who live and work in England and would sing "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" as loud as anyone. They certainly raise their kids to be Welsh!
He also has an English Dad. Where your parents come from is apparently just as important as where you were born/grew up. At least, that’s what the Celts keep saying.
@@icarus877 maybe typical because it's factual. I have an Irish grandparent, a Welsh grandparent and 2 English. My wife has an Irish parent and an English one. My neighbor across the way was born to 2 Welsh parents in Wales, but was raised from 12 and has continued to live in England. My Welsh grandparent may have been my biggest influence in rugby and pushed and coached me in the game, then I may choose Wales(if I was good enough) to make him proud. What's wrong with that? Or I may be born in England to English parents, but raised in Wales, gone through the Welsh rugby system and wanted to give back by choosing Wales. The UK is very different to the rest of the world, whereas most people have mixed heritage and can freely move,live and work in any of 3 countries as if they were moving cities. They shouldn't be classed as foreign players in any scenario, inside the eligibility structure. Imo. Ps I support England in sport, but firmly class myself a proud Brit. And outside the usual banter, support all the home nations.
Huw Jones’ dad was my primary school Rugby and Music teacher (in England). I can say his whole family are very proudly Scottish despite where they live.
Yeah man my best mate's mum here in NZ was Scottish and she was 100% Scottish and proud until the day she died - despite living most of her life abroad
Tom O'Toole, as you mentioned, was born in Ireland, moved to Australia as a small child and played schoolboy rugby there. Came back to Ireland at 16, went to school in Belfast and came through the Ulster academy system, so he's part Aussie trained and part Irish trained. Allegiance can be complicated. My old schoolmate David Erskine played a few times for Ireland in the late 90s - he was born in England to English parents, moved to County Down as a small child and went to school there, and played Irish schoolboy rugby and cricket. After he left school he played professionally for Sale Sharks in England, and there was a bit of controversy about his eligibility for Ireland because he had no Irish family and didn't live there anymore, but he'd spent his entire formative existence in Ireland and couldn't imagine playing for any other country. I suppose he'd count as foreign-born and locally-trained, but he wasn't meaningfully foreign. Another schoolmate, Jason Craig, played rugby for Ireland at schoolboy level - he also grew up and went to school in County Down, but his parents were American, he's a US citizen and has since moved to the States. If he'd gone pro, I wonder if he'd have been eligible for Ireland?
Yeah man it definitely gets very grey very easily. I remember Brad Shields qualifed for England via two English parents. But weirdly both his parents moved to NZ as children. So his parents were pretty bloody Kiwi, and him as well. But still he qualified the same as anyone. He got a bit of stick about it, but he doesn't make the rules. And yeah none of us know how "English" he felt
@@TwoCentsRugby Brad Shields should not have played for England. He was born in raised in NZ, and came through the NZRU development system. And that is the crucial point. There are several Unions that putting in the coaching time and cost to develop players, who are then poached by other Unions.
@@attackpatterndelta8949 yeah I agree with your final point, that’s really what it’s about for me. If you’ve trained and been supported by one union pretty much your whole playing days, it’s not right or fair to go take that investment and let someone else benefit.
It seems to be one of these intersections between politics and rugby doesn’t it? Well done you for giving a lot of information, context beyond the headlines and different perspectives. I’m Scottish, but born overseas, to Scottish parents who have French, English and Irish heritage also - so all in all a right mess for strict nationality interpretations 😂 I do like that lots of players who go to other countries seem to really settle in (like Pierre Schoeman and DVDM, having businesses in Scotland and doing lots of community stuff). Quite encouraging ya know? Is that common in other unions for the players to have help setting up businesses or getting degrees and qualifications?
For Capuozzo you could also argue that he's born and raised in the city of Grenoble, wich is really near the italian border and where one third of the city inhabitants directly comes from italians immigrants. I grew up there and in every school, almost half of the children have italians name ;)
All over France you have many French with Italian ancestry. Like for example footballer Michel Platini ; Napoleon Bonaparte ; the writer Émile Zola ; actor Jean-paul Belmondo and Lino Ventura ; singer Ivo Livi better known as Yves Montand ; Fashion designer Pierre Cardin ; actor Jean-pierre Castaldi etc.
@@TheAvenger62it's sufficient to look at the names rounding in the french rugby teams: Ivaldi, Geraci, Aldegheri, Forletta...all of them are italian surnames
Looking forward to the Six nations. Last year started watching more. Hope to watch all the games this year. Only because of TWO-CENTS that I am taking an interest. @Two Cents - Great stuff Boet!!!!
As long as they put their hearts and souls into playing for their team, it doesn't bother me. We live in a global world, not the insular place it used to be. I've seen foreign players show just as much and even more emotion than the home born players at games. I'm not closed minded enough to complain about it.
Immigrants generally love the country they immigrate to - in fact they often love it in ways that people born there take for granted. Here's an analogy. If you have two groups of people given pizzas with various toppings. In one group the people are randomly assigned a topping without being asked, in the other group people are allowed to choose their topping from a menu. Obviously we would expect the second group, on average, to enjoy their pizzas more. Why would we expect countries to be different to pizzas in this regard?
Interesting. With the Fijian Drua and Moana Pacifica franchises now, that should provide a professional pathway for Pacific Islanders hence less reason to go and ply their trade abroad
@@TwoCentsRugby Having removed their 6N players from their professional clubs, it is absolutely shocking how few Scottish born or even Scottish heritage players are left playing for those clubs. Watching the Edinburgh v Cell C Sharks game from the weekend was like watching Super Rugby..... Personally I think they are killing their development by blocking potential rugby careers by outsourcing players. They don't have enough decent Scottish born / heritage players to fill their *two* professional clubs when they take their nationals out???? It really is quite shocking.
@@Karma-qt4ji Well, they do, it's just that the South African overspill is more competitive because they have a much bigger player pool, and as professional clubs Edinburgh & Glasgow have to play to be competitive to balance their books rather than to develop Scottish players like they're a AAA affiliate in American sport, and if that means playing a bunch of Bok overspill rather than untried or unproven Scottish qualified players then so be it. Maybe the solution would be a centralised academy similar to what the Italians are doing, but as long as the Scottish national team is doing OK and there are enough strong players from the diaspora that the team still feels Scottish for the most part, they aren't likely to see it as something that needs to be changed.
@@ofs82 Is the Scottish national team doing okay? I hadn't noticed.... What they (you?) are doing with all the South Africans, is telling their own youth that they prefer to spend your money on players who come from countries with good development programs, rather than on development programs of their own. At present, they are making up the national team numbers with 2nd generation expats and outsiders, and since the last mass exodus to colonies was just after WWII, the 'grandkids' pool is drying up so rapidly that it is just a matter of time before the Protea replaces the Thistle on the national jersey...
Expect to see more and more South African born players plying their trade for other nations in the future. Many reasons for this which I don’t want to go into since it might be opening can of worms. Also, I expect to see more 1st generation immigrants (I.e. players with South African parents) running out for their countries in future!
Negri;s dad still lives in Zimbabwe, bumped into him at the shops the other day. Negri was 50/50 raised in Zim and South Africa - mostly did senior school in South Africa.
So Negri is technically a Rhodesian? Quite ironic with that surname. Btw i thought there were no Europeans left there after recent events, his dad has balls.
@@Bolognabeef To be a Rhodesian he would have to have been born before 1979, which he wasn't, so technically he's a Zimbabwean. And yes, there are about 25000 native whites left in Zimbabwe. I am one, and I still live here.
Good to get into the detail. But yeah most internal UK migration basically goes from the outer bits to England and specifically the SE/London. So being born in England isn't a big deal for Wales/Scotland as you're not even moving to a different state. Scotland also handled the early professional era incredibly badly, which was 25 years ago but that's how old these players are. So smaller participation numbers, less professional clubs etc. etc. You can partly see it in the likes of Cam Redpath, Adam Hastings, previously Garry Graham, who are literally the sons of Scotland internationals who plied their trade professionally in England/France. Also I think Scottish people just get about a lot, there's a big diaspora. My great uncles/aunts all moved to Australia/Canada/New Zealand in the 50s so my Da never even met them. Most my Uncles/Aunts also emigrated at some point, barely see my cousins.
At last , someone talking sense on this subject. Scotland are often criticised for playing too many “foreigners” , and for years I have challenged what that means, differentiating between bloodline and residency. For me , having a bloodline is stronger and more important that residency, especially for a country with such a large diaspora as Scotland. Your analysis demonstrates this point. If you use residency as the foreign criteria then Italy lead the way, with the other 5 nations all including between 2 and 3 in their squads, ie, no difference between them. A very valid debate is how strong the bloodline needs to be, should it be limited to parents rather than grandparents as the current rules dictate? I can see arguments for both and read an interesting article on Sione Tuipuloto who qualifies through a grandparent - in it he acknowledges he doesn’t look Scottish, doesn’t sound Scottish, but having been brought up by his Scottish granny and now living in the country, feels as Scottish as the next man.
Bloodline Sbloodline. Why should someone qualify through where their granny was born? It's irrelevant. The main factor should be where you learned your rugby.
Complicity in empirical domination and invasion. Check west indies for scots names amongst local population due to forcible procreation with the then enslaved population
Thnx for the video. I appreciate you looking over the stats and giving some thoughts on both sides of the argument . I come from the Scottish borders and enjoyed playing and watching rugby. I have never liked seeing the nationalistic argument every year amongst other things especially since it has been the case for more years than people think. I understand the different points about it and can feel aggrieved for lacking in development for the younger age groups and other options/routes within the country especially when the SRU could of done better over the years in quite a few aspects. However, I feel more people assume more than fully look at the actual reasons why we struggled in regards to this over the years, nor at the individual players and their reasons why and how they play for us. I think and hope that there will be an improvement for getting more people from the academies, U19-21s and grassroots. It will take some time and probably will be after the world cup before more changes happen. Not everyone will be born Scottish from these routes either and don't have to be. Also though there might be a bigger improvement in numbers, I don't think it will be close to the other UK nations either. Overall it's never an easy argument to simply say yes or no. I am glad to see the players we have had over the years play regardless of birthplace and to see even some return now as well. At the end of the day I hope everyone enjoys a good year of international rugby from wherever you are.
England total moves to 5 now with Dave Ribbans in the squad for the injured Courtney lawes. Ribbans born and raised in SA played for stormers then across to Northampton were he qualifies on residency. FYI
This is not at all surprising but still really interesting. Can you do a comparison to Southern Hemisphere teams? I feel like we tend to only take local players in the South. In SA we occasionally poach from Zim i suppose
@@koketsoncongwane1602 Brian Mujati, Bob Skinstad, Chavhanga.. Quite a few domestic players and some serious high school ballers. Interestingly enough David Pocock the aussy captain is from Zim too
You've missed Home Born/Foreign Raised as Alex Dombrandt would fall into this category most definitely. Played up to U14s in Surrey (no DPP, or county interest) at which point his side folded due to lack of numbers and he left the game and cricket became his sport. Went to Cardiff Met on the advice of older schoolmates who' d gone there and 'fell into the rugby programme'. Exploded into the first team (see Cardiff Met footage of BUCS matches), qualified for Wales U20 Six Nations as a Welsh student, BUCS Super Rugby final in his final year and then landed at Harelquins, and was winning a Premiership title within 18 months of making his 1st team debut.
Yep. It is harder. No mummy every evening to provide love and decent food, no central heating, discipline provided courtesy of successive older year groups and total lack of privacy. You live as part of a team and fight as part of a team. You are quite right, private school (particularly boarding schools) are much more physically hardening and psychologically hard than the schools that the majority of kids go to for a few hours a day. I like the point that you have made and agree with you 100%.
@@richardjoseph9002 interesting, I wasn’t especially thinking about boarding. As a parent, I can’t imagine sending my children away like that. But then perhaps that is selfish of me? Private education is also a strong indicator of socio-economic background. I wasn’t really attempting to assign a value of hardness to the experience. A cursory search suggests that around 15% of private school students board, which is probably why it did not spring to mind. As you are concerned with how hard the experience may be, would you think that the 85% of students who are day students also have it harder?
@@BiscuitGeoff Geraint, no - day pupils have it easy! However, my memories of boarding are mostly about having fun, but the threat of violence and the need to develop trust with peers was ever-present. My, perhaps, unsolicited response was as a result of having to put up with the class--ridden suggestion that private school boys had a soft school experience. My school had (just before I arrived) two England U18 forwards of the day - 'Stig' Brown and 'Tubby' MacAteer. Terrifing by name alone!
@@richardjoseph9002 oh, I’ve read too many memoirs (and spoken to a few ex-boarders) to have any illusions that boarding is easy. The general impression I have had is that the positives (networking, extra curricular stuff, oxbridge) is meant to compensate for the hardship but for some people it definitely does not. I have some friends who teach at a respected private school. Their children go to the (good) local comp.
I was born in Argentina and I have lived more than 50% of my life abroad, I could also use the argument that my grandparents were all Europeans, but in any case, I still feel 100% Argentinean! You cannot change that feeling so easily. Perhaps I could still theoretical play for another country, but that in my eyes will always be a travesty...an excuse to hire mercenaries and to destroy the soul of this beautiful game.
@@garysmith5025 Hey Gary, Martin here. I understand, but you were born from Scottish parents and the Finnish connection was more like an accident. I am talking more of people that get nationalized Italian when they were not born there and the closest connection with that country are either their great-grandparents or having worked in Italy for a couple of years (economic refugees). In your particular case, I would not see a problem if you play for either SCO or FIN, but I would certainly be disgusted to hear that now you suddenly discovered your love for NOR after some club in Oslo offered you a juicy contract. I hope my point is clearer now. Cheers!
You say that “you cannot change that feeling easily”. But you absolutely can. Look at Nick Tompkins. Played every age grade for England, and then went on to represent the England Saxons. But when it became clear he was unlikely to get selected for the senior team, he defected to Wales. Johnny Williams did the same thing. It’s easy to say “I couldn’t play for someone else” when you’re not in a position to get selected for any team.
Read the tuipulotu article on the bbc sport page under Scottish rugby. He says it perfectly. Doesn’t feel Scottish himself but his granny is Scottish and feels all the emotions to make her proud. It’s a great article.
@@attackpatterndelta8949 Ohhh, you did not understand my first comment. I never said I couldn't play for another country... I just said that would be a travesty! Two separate things. I would play anytime for a team that offers me the possibility of becoming famous/rich or of playing in a top tournament, but I would be doing it for reasons other than representing my true colors.
@@robbiemacdonald777 Sounds like an excuse to me... although, it may be true, we will never know I guess. It is actually impossible to know if that feeling is real or just a lovely strategy to avoid being call a mercenary.
Fascinating video and excellently done. Absolutely shocked and somewhat appalled but the Scotland statistic! If half your squad are foreigners, there surely is no way you can be competing under the Scottish flag!?!
Take your shock and appalled elsewhere. There is no problem with them competing for Scotland. Just like there is no issue with players in any of the other teams. The rules allow it, the players wish to be there so a bit like the SA bench situation suck it up and shut up.
The stats regarding the UK nation's foreign players are very misleading. Britain is one country subdivided into little nations. People move around between all the nations and always have done for thousands of years. We all share the same culture(ish) all the same TV, Government, Army etc. To say someone who was born in England and plays for Scotland is foreign seems very weird to me. They aren't foreign whatsoever. The Irish and Scandinavians are all over the UK as well and have been for thousands of years. People go back and forward planting their seeds through these islands. It's all the same DNA. It's only man-made imaginary borders that divide people and have them believing they represent a certain flag.
Super interesting video. At the end of the day in 2023 countries, residency and allegiance are a lot more free flowing. Like, if a country attracts someone because of their league/facilities/education/lifestyle quality then they should be able to use those players in their squad. Likewise if a player feels a connection to somewhere else because of their heritage, they should also be able to play and represent. I mean even if the only appeal is “getting to play international rugby” (sooner) then that country has the right to play them, it’s just that clearly it will be more of a coaching challenge to make that team successful.
Yeah man people are gonna move about - I've got two kids and they weren't born in the same countries! I'll be interested to see how things shift with longer residency requirements
grandparents or residency- it's a fair way to do it - residency is 3 years. My kids could play for: Scotland (father, mother 50%), Wales (Mother 50%), England (mother 50%) 5 million people live in Scotland - the global population of Scots is more than 20million (wiki says 28-40m)
Good stuff thanks. It would have been nice to have the context of the general population figures. I think it often overlooked that many countries have far larger pools to draw on then others.
It's far more interesting to look at registered players rather than population. There are only 3 countries out of the top 12 national teams with less registered players than Ireland. One of them is Scotland, but the others are Italy and Samoa. Ireland punches WAY above their weight considering how many people play the game. The biggest volume of players comes from South Africa, they have 600k registered players, which is rather insane considering Ireland have less than 100k. It does explain why South Africans are everywhere in Europe though
@@ThatsPlunk 83k for wales 87k Italy Scotland 50k I would say if Ireland are punching above their weight then wales have done so also over the years. England has 382k
I’m just pleased that Lawrence Delalio and Mike Catt were allowed to opt for England all at the end of the C20th. And it was good that Jason Robinson was permitted to cross over from League to Union, which had obviously been a more contentious situation historically.
Is anybody seriously questioning the Scottish credentials of Cam Redpath, whose dad captained Scotland, and was only in France/England because that's where his dad played / coached? Does anybody believe that if Basil had stayed in Scotland that Cam wouldn't have grown up to be an exceptional rugby player? Also, Watson and Price both played for Scotland at age group level so clearly considered themselves Scottish from an early age, and both have played all their senior professional rugby in Scotland - who can say whether they would have become the players they are now if they had stayed at Leicester / Bedford academies respectively. Residency is murkier and I think one world cup cycle (4/5 years) is about right, however richer countries scouring Tier 2 countries for talent and offering kids scholarships is a concern. I'd also have a qualification period for somebody with just 1 qualifying grandparent (say 1 year), because those are tenuous. What irritates me is those who declare categorically what another person should feel about their nationality. My son was born in London (mum is English) and has lived all his life outside the UK, however he absolutely considers himself Scottish - his sister would be more likely to describe herself as English. Every single country has made use of residency qualifications to a greater or lesser degree when it has suited their purpose, so some of the comments here claiming any kind of moral high ground because there are currently only 4 'foreign players' is utter bollocks. That said, good video @twocentsrugby.
I do love the “was only born in France cos his dad was playing there” argument. It’s like me saying “My sister was only born in Swansea cos my dad got a job there”. It doesn’t change the fact that that’s where she was born. And what input have Scotland had on Cameron Redpath’s development? He went to Sedbergh School, played all his pro rugby in England and represented England at age grade level. He was even selected for the England senior team. Then Scotland swooped in and poached him, like they have done with so many other players.
The reason a player was born in that country doesn't affect anything, apart from a mild perception shift. Neither does where that person 'considers themselves' to be from. Scotland have fewer players to choose from, sure... By a long way, but their team is a mashup of all sorts of countries, it's basically a South Africa and English B team.
Vunipola played all of his early rugby in Wales; he went to an English school at age 16 for sixth-form. So 2 years in the English school system, and 10 + in the Welsh.
Except that’s not true. The Vunipolas moved to England when they were 12 and 10 respectively. They both played for Thornberry RFC in Gloucestershire. The Welsh always like to say that the Vunipolas grew up in Wales. But they grew up in England too. Something that is conveniently left out of the Welsh narrative.
I never saw them after schools district. Going through the age grades we played Gwent County ever season and even into dragons -16s you never saw the vunipolas or falatau.
It does not bother me if National teams have " foreign" players as long as they qualify on legitimate grounds. Rugby is a proffessional sport and i for one will not complain about a young man who wishes to make the most of a demanding and shortsport career. As long as it is above board .
I was born in Spain to English and Swedish parents, moved away before I was one, raised in a mixture of Sweden, England and the States, and live in England as an adult. Where you were born means next to nothing in terms where you are "from" xD
If you played in the school boys structures you are local. I think once you have represented age group for a country you shouldn't be allowed to switch allegiance. At least not on residency. That U20 spot is an opportunity lost for another kid, and when you think of the millions spent in development structures each year in order to churn out a handful of potential international caliber players a year. Tommy Allen also spent a good amount of time in South Africa. saffa accent anyway. Scottish father (played for Scotland?).
John Cooney will be an "interesting" Scotsman. Imported players have been an essential element for Ireland because of the small professional player pool who qualify by birth. As the pool has expanded the need has become less dramatic but it is likely to remain something of a feature particularly if the "playing in Ireland" criterion remains in force. Scotland is likely to remain dependent given the narrow elite club structure. Italy's centralised Academy system has been central to the emerging strength, so last year's decision to disrupt that model in favour of a club-based system seems damaging. Given the scale of the player base and the large numbers of professional players, it seems odd that England should have any foreigners. But when you look at the number of foreign players in the professional clubs, reducing the opportunities for "local" players and soaking up a disproportionate dollop of scarce financial resources, it may be an inevitable consequence.
I think you need to understand the basis of the UK really to see the picture here. People move around the whole of the country and just moving two miles up the road can turn you from being, say, English born to Welsh or Scottish. Then you have parents who have similar backgrounds. I’d really count only those from outside the UK as properly “foreign born”. A great example is Shaun Edwards who has Welsh ancestry but is as English as you can come, he had a large decision to make when considering which country to be affiliated with. Then one can start to debate the rights and wrongs of those who have moved into the UK.
I'm Scots and grew up in South Africa. Live in England where my three kids were born of which two have Aussie passports. It's encouraging to see what can be done when you look at Italy with just two pro teams. I think with Scotland, like in my situation, they are always going to have players born in England to Scots parents. I'm not a fan of the residency law, although as a contradiction happy to have the players we have, but it is what it is. The switching of allegiance, Dempsey has Scottish family as does McConnachie and if John Cooney switches, his father is Scots. I think barring the three, all the others have blood links. It's not a perfect situation but we don't make the rules. Even with only two pro teams we still have quite a few foreign players across the two - should we have a cap on foreigners to blood more younger players (are there enough of them) - downside being our teams would be less competitive as both sides lose a huge chunk to the internationals.
While I don't particularly like players being eligible after 3 years or 5 years of residency, when their home unions refuse to consider players playing overseas you can see why that rule is in place. But if a player has played at high school in a country to which their family has emigrated they should be eligible for either their country of residency or their country of birth. It would be great to see players choosing to play for a Pacific nation over Australia or NZ, but I guess they feel they have a better chance of playing at a higher level with the bigger unions. The UK is different, with people moving within a single country, they should have the right to choose based on where they learnt to play, birth place, or ancestral heritage.
If a player has lived in a country from a young age, been through that Union’s development system, played all their pro rugby in that country, I don’t see a problem with them playing for that country at senior level. What I don’t like is one Union coaching a player and putting in the time and cost to develop them, for another Union to come in and poach that player, just because they’ve got a grandad that was from that nation. That doesn’t sit right.
The player should be allowed to do so after qualifying through residency (4 years).......on the proviso that 50k transfer fee be paid to the "home union" for the players develoment.
UK is an interesting case. Four nations with no borders between them, but rugby is disproportionately a sport of the privately educated, and the privately educated gravitate towards centres of wealth and power (England). Huw jones or cam Redpath for example, both from very Scottish families, but are considered foreign born players.
Interesting update, thanks! Btw with the new eligibility rules I am curious to know if that changed something for pacific teams. Samoa did quite good last year, but I don't know if they benefited that much from those new regulations.
The very "here and now" italian squad have really low amount of foreign born/trained players, that's true, but to be fair some of them have not been selected because of injury or other reasons...in fact neither Ioane and Halafihi are on the list, nor Nemer and Traorè. The first two are qualified through residency and they were born in Australia and New Zealand respectively, Traorè as well actually but he arrived in Italy when he was a child and he was born in Guinea. Nemer is qualified through a grandparent and he was born in Argentina. David Sisi, out for injury at the moment, was born in Germany but he lived in Scotland and raised as a player in England, qualified through his paternal grandparents. Speaking about Marco Manfredi, quite new to the squad, he was born in Germany just because his mother is german, but he has been raised and trained in Italy, by the way.
The example of Redpath is his birth location and years of trade is arbitrary. Hes from an exclusively Scottish family and his location was based on his dads career.
Excellent subject TC, and very well presented. It was nice to see the numbers represented on the pie-chart and then the bar graph. It gives you an idea of how big or small of a chunk the overall squad are "foreign". The Scottish number of 21 is high but as you mention, most of them can be explained by the closeness of life/work on the Island. I think its good to see that the numbers are down from last year. My view is that if someone hasn't attended second level school (high school, from say the age of 13 to 15) then they should not be eligible to play for that country. - I've nothing against Lowe, Aki and Hanson but they are not really Irish. Their only allegiance to the country is that it is where they have earned their living for the last few years. Learning and singing the national anthem fools nobody. - It is a dis-incentive to non-foreign players to put in the work and effort to make their national side. - it robs talent from other nations, which affects smaller nations (Pacific Islands) more significantly. I have no problem with young men and women going to foreign clubs to earn their living but the National team should be different. One issue that would still exist if my idea was the rule. There would be countries like NZ where there would be loads of excess players better than players on other national sides who might never get to play international Rugby. And that is tough. Perhaps allow these countries have a B team ? And compete in the tier two international competitions ? It happens in Athletics at the moment in endurance running. Countries like Turkey buy up the Kenyans who cannot make the the Kenyan national team and they tend to dominate the European championships. Some of these Kenyan (and other African) athletes have never even been to Turkey. Other countries do it also but Turkey is the biggest culprit. If it was stopped then these elite athletes would never get to compete internationally. Nothing personal about the 3 "Irish" players I mention above, but I would prefer to have 3 Irish homegrown players on the squad instead and lose, rather than win with them. In the long run, it would be better of the development of the game in Ireland. 10% of the Irish squad is not Irish.
It annoys me, even Hanson! He should have still done a certain amount of residence time before being allowed to play. Parent rule ok, not grandparents. A certain Munster player this season had more emerging Ire caps than Munster caps! What does that say to a homegrown player? Ala Healy! Some don't know the Anthem.
@@creekyknee Lowe, Gibson-Park and Aki I think. I tend to agree with your views, by the way, the qualification standard should be set higher. Having said that, those three fellahs give everything on the field, and i think they deserve our support
The real reason Dvdm ended up in Scotland was because of the incident between his brother and a Springbok in 2019. It's personal between Bok management and van der Merve's...
Now I'm curious. What happened? If its the Schalk Brits fight you're talking about I really doubt that was the reason for him going to Scotland, there were many
What do you think of the new tackle rules? I’m not convinced they’re paying much attention to the research, fans or players. I personally feel like this is a bad idea that will lead to more injuries to the tackler, but obviously I’m from a Northern Hemisphere perspective so people may not feel the same way. If they are going to insist on it they’ll have to look at punishment rules and rates for illegal tackles too, bad tackles can be missed during the match so there’s a lot more to it than just slapping a single blanket rule on and calling it a day.
Yeah I think I agree, the tackler is the one most at risk so changes should be prioritising them. I meant to go check what Ross Tucker said as he usually explains it quite well.
I think it should be the players who decide on protocols and the direction the pro game goes in, and whatever they say, goes. It says something interesting (and disturbing for me) about the direction we are going when one looks at how conspicuously ignored the point of view of the players is, at least in the narrative around the issue (sports journalists, social media pundits, WR, match officials, etc.).
@@dalenewton9697 it doesn’t work like that, the current players aren’t the only ones affected, the fans are too. Players should be part of the discussion but certainly not deciders of it. At the end of the day, fans won’t get behind teams they don’t feel represents them.
@@april-tui3524 Not sure what you are referring to ('not how it works). My post is about how it SHOULD work(that's kind of the point). It's the players careers, their health, their injuries their legacy, and should be their decision. Also, WR aren't doing it on a rationale of entertainment for fans. They're doing under the rationale of player welfare, and if it's player centered, it should be player decided (even though the idea of it being player centered appears to be just pretext from WR, juding by the new rules and protocols and the clubs and players reactions). Fan entertainment (if that is the real reason) is not a justifiable reason for stripping players of their agency and voice, or forcing a version of the game onto them they don't want to play in my view. In practical terms we've also seen from the NBA what happens next there. What they should do, if indeed they have been stripped of agency to the degree they appear to have looking in from the outside, is form break away unions. One where WR get's to do it's paternalist/despotic thing, and other unions for players who want to play traditional rugby and decide the direction the game goes in (at the elite level).
Would you say form your perspective players are very much involved in deciding the direction the pro game is going currently? Certainly doesn't seem that way from where Im sitting.
You can't argue with the people who have dual nationality . The issue for me are the naturalized citizens. The 3 kiwis for Ireland and the 3 Safas for Scotland
If I was Gatland and Townshend I would go on a holiday together driving around the east coast of NZL provinces locking for anyone with a Welsh or Scottish grandmother
To answer your question Italy’s registered player count is larger than both Scotland and Wales combined at around 90,000 registered players from memory.
@TwoCentsRugby Hoi Marc! Why are you considering only 1 Argentine player in Italy? Both Iván Nemer and Ignacio Brex are from Argentina. Also, having an Italian "parent" in Argentina is very common since the Italian passport is literally given to anyone who wants it and has any relative of Italian origin up to 3 generations back. This, coupled with the constant economic crises in Argentina, makes that a large proportion of Argentina's population has a second nationality/passport (mostly European) to give them a second chance if things get rough economically at some point. cheers!
Yes, so you would think Scotland having only 2 teams surely could find 20 players that are actually Scottish. Not born and raised on another continent. Being born in other parts of the UK and representing another country is fair enough. But another continent is taking the p!ss.
@@chriswood753 We should be picking the best talent from our 2 pro clubs to represent our nation. It makes no difference to me if they're English, Irish, SA, Welsh, Italian born. They are the best players for our clubs and have every right to be selected to play for our nation. We're all Jock Tampson's bairns!
I wonder if any National team is fully born in the country they play for, such as Argentina. It would be nice if you dig up that info! Many thanks for the hard work!
In England we define Nationality from the Father NOT where you are born. My brother was born in Limassol Cyprus to English Parents and is English. In 1981, The British Govt. passed the Nationalities Act that effectively forbids English people from calling themselves English! The same applies to the Scots, Welsch and Northern Irish!! Further, England is the only Nation in World Rugby that is not allowed to play our own National Anthem! We are forced by The British to use God Save The Queen/King which is not our National Anthem!!!
For Ireland what does irritate me is that 1/5 of our usual starting team are Kiwis who had zero link to Ireland. No offence to the Kiwis but does feel pretty mercenary.
They may have zero link but as long as they play and give it 100% their best, that matters not. If they were mercenaries, why haven't they gone to France or maybe even back home?
Mercenaries the wrong labels by far, professional players who are working and living here some for a short time some for a long time, Irish lads go the other way too
Not for me. If they proudly represent the country it's fine. I've seen some of these crying with emotion at the anthem, and after a great victory. I'm not so closed minded as others. Plus, we live in a global world now, it's no longer the closed insular world of the past.
I personally couldn’t play for another team other than England as national teams shouldn’t be as easy to move around like club teams. Do understand players trying to make a living but it’s the rulings that are an issue. It should be seen as a pleasure to play for the country you are from as you shouldn’t just be able to choose
I'm not bothered by this tbh. Nationality is fluid, people's national identity can change over their lives and people can have multiple nationalities at once. Even more so in the 6N where three (and a half) of the competing nations are part of the same sovereign state.
@@rogerpattube I think you know that's a silly comparison. The male and female games have always been separated because of the obvious advantage in upper-body strength and other physical attributes males have over females. It's obviously unreasonable to let cisgender men play in women's rugby, not only would it not be a level playing field but this is a contact sport, there would be significant safety concerns. Obviously sex is not in the same category as nationality. While obviously some countries are stronger than others, this is a consequence of culture rather than genetics. The problems with fairness and safety obviously don't apply here.
It does seem a bit mercenary but you have to consider parentage as parents can have a strong influence over which country their child aligns to. An example I could give is I am Scottish and my ex-wife is English. When my 2 boys were younger and misbehaved I would tell them that they qualify to play rugby for England, after a few tears, tantrums and denials, the boys behavior was impeccable. Be safe all
Good video, but any English or French guys complaining have to agree they have a huge player pool population to pick from than the other teams. If Scotland's team were full of residency guys I would agree with criticism, but 18 with either parents or Grand parents are legitimate picks for Scotland.
Yes, but he also played in France at Perpignan, team that he is rejoining to next season. He definitely didn't learn his rugby in Italy but he is italian, he was born in Italy, his mother is a former rugby player and his scottish father too, they both played in Italy. At 23 he came back to Italy to play for Benetton the next 5 years. When he speaks italian, he has the same accent as me, typical of Veneto, region of the north-east of Italy.
What an excellent time to bring up the subject of “Project Players” in Ireland. Now that’s an excellent subject to discuss. These are young players who, despite demonstrating potential, haven’t yet made the grade in their own countries. They have been identified by the Irish clubs as people whom it is worth investing time and effort and money in, in order to hopefully develop their potential and ultimately benefit the club by filling in gaps which might appear in the otherwise vast player development operations in Ireland. There are Project Players who just don’t make the grade and they return home to their countries never to be heard of by the general rugby public or audience. Of the relatively few project players that do make the grade at the Irish clubs, they can if they so wish (remember, it is a personal decision) go on to represent Ireland based upon the fact that they have resided in Ireland for the period of time that World Rugby has set out in the laws and regulations. The four obvious examples nowadays are Rob Herring, Bundee Aki, Jamison Gibson-Park and James Lowe. All of these guys were very raw uncut gems with huge potential. But they had to work extremely hard over several years to develop that potential and learn the game and learn about themselves. They still possess some flaws, as most players do (nobody’s perfect). They have chosen to represent the country where they have developed into the players that they have become. They could have just as easily gone back home to their own countries and competed for places in their own original national teams but they chose not to. Thanks to their contributions, Ireland is now the number one team in the world and is one of the three favourites to lift the World Cup later this year, along with France and South Africa. The “Project Player” system is a good system. In fact it’s an excellent system. It helps the players themselves, it helps the clubs that invest all that time and money in them and ultimately it has helped Ireland to develop as a tier one rugby nation. Although it is arguable that Ireland probably could have developed as such in any event.
The Project Player system is incredibly cynical. It’s basically a Union admitting “We can’t develop a player of sufficient standard in a particular position, so we’ll poach someone else’s and select them for the national team in 3 years.”
@@attackpatterndelta8949 it's the clubs that seek experienced or high potential players from abroad not the Union. Remember the IRFU forced Ulster to let Ruan Pienaar go.
Great podcast mate. I actually expected more south Africans due to the political measures in place in our sport! Many white Saffers have migrated from south African rugby to other rugby playing nations primarily due to race quota requirements for teams playing in South Africa! Therefore, those players have looked for work opportunities elsewhere. Also, due to the extremely weak Rand, professional rugby players would rather earn foreign currency!!!
The number of athletes that are registered in the Italian and Scottish federations (any age) is comparable, so I suppose the player pools for the National team is comparable too, with two pro teams and all.
What you say is incorrect. Italy has double the number of clubs and double the playing pool. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries So Scotland at a disadvantage to start with. Beyond this the difference here probably relates to Scotland's role in the British Empire and the legacy of this. And then of course the movement between Scotland and England which is the same as moving between Sicily and Milan for example. The true number to watch is those playing through residency alone
@@rogerpattube @Paul Marconi was being tongue in cheek! Bundee has no previous connection with Ireland. (However, I for one, am very glad that he came to live and play in Connaught and became eligible to play for Ireland)
England has a population of 56 million .Ireland 6 million ,Wales ? 3 million ,Scotland ? 4, France ? 67 million Italy / 57 million Rugby is Irelands fourth popular game behind Soccer,GAA , hurling .
i actually though there would be more, such are the results of professionalism where players have to strive to get the best for themselves. Roughly 10% which is hardly groundbreaking. If you took soccer for instance you might be lucky to have 10% local in the big clubs but its a different game and probably unfair to compare
I think Scotland are entitled to immunity from anyone intending to take shots at them over having the highest percentage of foreign players in the team. Remember, they've only two professional clubs, not four. They simply don't have the numbers to make up the team in terms of local talent, so I've no problem with them taking a number of foreign players if absolutely necessary. But they really need to try establish at least a third club if possible. And that won't be easy as back in the late 90s, they did have 2 more clubs (Caledonia Reds and Border Reivers) but they both wound up.
Well the other way to look at that is they don’t have the talent or interest to field their own team. I don’t understand why you’d name a team the Scottish national team if you can’t get enough Scottish players to represent you. It’s the whole point isn’t it, the team is meant to represent the actual people of the country!
@@april-tui3524 You make a valid point April, but it's not as black and white as you think. As long as that team and organisation is established in that country as it was over a century ago, that's what they can call it as they wish. As I mentioned, Scotland used to have more professional clubs and therefore their national team had purely Scottish players but that luxury no longer exists. To be fair, if a foreigner comes in, and say sets up base there and calls it home, and say contributes to the economy or society of that country, shouldn't they be considered a member of that country? Jean Kleyn is a prime example. He's a natural Saffa, and was either going to play in SA or give up the sport. But Munster called him, and he accepted the offer to play in Ireland. He's here over 6 seasons now, and a lot of his family have moved over. He's married to an Irish woman and has strongly established himself in a country he has ZERO links to. I'm sure that some of the foreign players in the Scottish team are in the same boat, and they've ZERO links to the country, but they contribute in some way and that's beneficial to the country in itself.
@@conorcahill5422 well I’m a kiwi living in England 20 years and I’m officially a resident but not a citizen. I wouldn’t call myself English ever, so I wouldn’t ever feel like it’s right to represent English people. My daughter might, she’s been here most of her life. She wouldn’t feel like it was fair to learn her sport here though, and then pop back to NZ with the knowledge and skills provided by England, to represent kiwis- and we’re indigenous kiwis too. To me, it’s about fairness and representation. It isn’t about the one player, it’s about the country they represent and what’s fair for everyone. Obviously world rugby make those rules. But if my country’s team was made up like theirs is, I wouldn’t feel like it was my team. People follow these teams and support them, pay for them, based on pretty deep feelings of nationality and pride. So I think it’s a fine line personally and there’s a bunch of factors to consider.
@@april-tui3524 If you're there 20 years, and you have a passport stating that you are a UK citizen, then you most definitely are if you wish, even if you don't believe that notion, because you have that right, even if you don't feel it. If you contribute in a positive manner to the economy in UK, who are people to tell you otherwise? I'm living in Canada 8-9 months now and I can definitely say that if I end up obtaining citizenship in the next few years, I'll happily call myself Irish-Canadian. There's no shame in that at all.
@@conorcahill5422 it’s not really about ‘shame’ though. I don’t have a British passport, I’ve got a New Zealand passport. I’ll never be British, I’ll always be a Maori New Zealander. I could get citizenship, but it’s £1300 so I don’t see the point! Someone else might feel differently in my position, but that’s just what I think. I fully feel like a member of the community, we pay our way etc it’s our home and where we raised our daughter, but I think it would be strange to call myself English unless I grew up here or was born to English parents. That’s why I wouldn’t ever ‘represent’ English people. I don’t feel the players in the ABs who came over as adults or older teens represent me either.
As an Irishman I have conflicting views on this tbh. I have somewhat of a acceptance for foreign born players with Irish blood (Hansen, Carberry) as to me they have a strong and valid connection. Although, the age they come over to play is an issue. Carberry came over at a very young age, Hansen was much later. To be it’s understandable that a nation of 7 million has affectively 4 residency players in the squad.
4:27 I always get the same with Italy, but with Argentine players!!! Italy always has in field 1 or 2 players from Argentina nationalized using the excuse that one of their grandparent or great-grandparent was Italian (a rule that would then make 60% of Argentina's population technically suitable for playing for Italy... ridiculous!) .
It is not an excuse, the rules said they were allowed to do it and they did it. Nothing more. If part of your family is italian, you can represent Italy, period. Your argument doesn't make any sense.
This is not "an excuse" in the sense that is limited to help us field a better rugby team though, our citizenship laws grant citizenship to anyone whose great-grandparent was Italian, even if they weigh 40kg while soaked :) I have more of an issue (not really, but for the sake of the argument) when the player becomes eligible after having played 3/4 years in the country than when they can apply for citizenship following the same procedure that wouldn't discriminate them were they a bank teller or a carpenter
I don't know which laws apply in the UK or France, but here in Italy we have iure sanguinis, which means that if one of your parents has Italian citizenship you automatically have it as well. This applies to the likes of Capuozzo, Polledri, Negri etc. I obviously don't mean to divide into first and second class citizens, as anyone who can acquire our citizenship in any way is more than welcome to do it, but you might say that our foreign born players for this years 6N are all 100% Italian just as well as if they were born here (as opposed to a Kiwi gaining elegibility for having played for Zebre for 4 years or for having married an Italian citizen).
It’s always, for a Saffer like me, a mixture of sadness and pride to see our locally born players playing for other countries. That Duhan van der Merwe, especially! What a talent!
Scotland/Edinburgh rescued his career SA didn't want him. He feels a debt of gratitude towards towards us after SA abandoned him (capped at 21s). Edinburgh signed him even though he failed his medical from Montpellier & need hip surgery.
George North is a perfect example of why the headline numbers can be misleading. Welsh speaker from North Wales but happened to be born over the border so categorised in most places as foreign. Glad you did a further breakdown of the stats to show the numbers below the headline
Yep shouldn't count in the uk, plenty of people living and working over the 'borders'. I've played with many Welsh lads who live and work in England and would sing "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" as loud as anyone. They certainly raise their kids to be Welsh!
Agree. Find the Vid interesting with respect to our perspective.
Yeah the UK gets a bit messy with these numbers - but he's definitely home grown for mine
He also has an English Dad. Where your parents come from is apparently just as important as where you were born/grew up. At least, that’s what the Celts keep saying.
@@icarus877 maybe typical because it's factual. I have an Irish grandparent, a Welsh grandparent and 2 English. My wife has an Irish parent and an English one. My neighbor across the way was born to 2 Welsh parents in Wales, but was raised from 12 and has continued to live in England. My Welsh grandparent may have been my biggest influence in rugby and pushed and coached me in the game, then I may choose Wales(if I was good enough) to make him proud. What's wrong with that? Or I may be born in England to English parents, but raised in Wales, gone through the Welsh rugby system and wanted to give back by choosing Wales. The UK is very different to the rest of the world, whereas most people have mixed heritage and can freely move,live and work in any of 3 countries as if they were moving cities. They shouldn't be classed as foreign players in any scenario, inside the eligibility structure. Imo.
Ps I support England in sport, but firmly class myself a proud Brit. And outside the usual banter, support all the home nations.
Huw Jones’ dad was my primary school Rugby and Music teacher (in England). I can say his whole family are very proudly Scottish despite where they live.
Yeah man my best mate's mum here in NZ was Scottish and she was 100% Scottish and proud until the day she died - despite living most of her life abroad
Tom O'Toole, as you mentioned, was born in Ireland, moved to Australia as a small child and played schoolboy rugby there. Came back to Ireland at 16, went to school in Belfast and came through the Ulster academy system, so he's part Aussie trained and part Irish trained.
Allegiance can be complicated. My old schoolmate David Erskine played a few times for Ireland in the late 90s - he was born in England to English parents, moved to County Down as a small child and went to school there, and played Irish schoolboy rugby and cricket. After he left school he played professionally for Sale Sharks in England, and there was a bit of controversy about his eligibility for Ireland because he had no Irish family and didn't live there anymore, but he'd spent his entire formative existence in Ireland and couldn't imagine playing for any other country. I suppose he'd count as foreign-born and locally-trained, but he wasn't meaningfully foreign. Another schoolmate, Jason Craig, played rugby for Ireland at schoolboy level - he also grew up and went to school in County Down, but his parents were American, he's a US citizen and has since moved to the States. If he'd gone pro, I wonder if he'd have been eligible for Ireland?
I knew Tom growing up in Ireland I think he left when he was 7 to Australia
Yeah man it definitely gets very grey very easily. I remember Brad Shields qualifed for England via two English parents. But weirdly both his parents moved to NZ as children. So his parents were pretty bloody Kiwi, and him as well. But still he qualified the same as anyone. He got a bit of stick about it, but he doesn't make the rules. And yeah none of us know how "English" he felt
@@TwoCentsRugby Brad Shields should not have played for England. He was born in raised in NZ, and came through the NZRU development system.
And that is the crucial point. There are several Unions that putting in the coaching time and cost to develop players, who are then poached by other Unions.
Isn't Joey Carbery similar? Born in Ireland, moved to NZ as a child and back to Ireland in his teens if I remember correctly.
@@attackpatterndelta8949 yeah I agree with your final point, that’s really what it’s about for me. If you’ve trained and been supported by one union pretty much your whole playing days, it’s not right or fair to go take that investment and let someone else benefit.
It seems to be one of these intersections between politics and rugby doesn’t it? Well done you for giving a lot of information, context beyond the headlines and different perspectives. I’m Scottish, but born overseas, to Scottish parents who have French, English and Irish heritage also - so all in all a right mess for strict nationality interpretations 😂 I do like that lots of players who go to other countries seem to really settle in (like Pierre Schoeman and DVDM, having businesses in Scotland and doing lots of community stuff). Quite encouraging ya know? Is that common in other unions for the players to have help setting up businesses or getting degrees and qualifications?
You guys are sooo boring
For Capuozzo you could also argue that he's born and raised in the city of Grenoble, wich is really near the italian border and where one third of the city inhabitants directly comes from italians immigrants. I grew up there and in every school, almost half of the children have italians name ;)
In fact he is already able to speak italian and really proud of his italian roots!
All over France you have many French with Italian ancestry.
Like for example footballer Michel Platini ; Napoleon Bonaparte ; the writer Émile Zola ; actor Jean-paul Belmondo and Lino Ventura ; singer Ivo Livi better known as Yves Montand ; Fashion designer Pierre Cardin ; actor Jean-pierre Castaldi etc.
@@TheAvenger62it's sufficient to look at the names rounding in the french rugby teams: Ivaldi, Geraci, Aldegheri, Forletta...all of them are italian surnames
And his french is way better than most french people
@@savoyairforce maybe because he is french?
Looking forward to the Six nations. Last year started watching more. Hope to watch all the games this year. Only because of TWO-CENTS that I am taking an interest. @Two Cents - Great stuff Boet!!!!
Awesome to hear man! Hopefully it's a cracker!
I like that you defined Germany "overseas" from Italy 😉. Nice analysis as ever.
Lol..more like over mountains
As long as they put their hearts and souls into playing for their team, it doesn't bother me. We live in a global world, not the insular place it used to be. I've seen foreign players show just as much and even more emotion than the home born players at games. I'm not closed minded enough to complain about it.
Immigrants generally love the country they immigrate to - in fact they often love it in ways that people born there take for granted.
Here's an analogy. If you have two groups of people given pizzas with various toppings. In one group the people are randomly assigned a topping without being asked, in the other group people are allowed to choose their topping from a menu. Obviously we would expect the second group, on average, to enjoy their pizzas more. Why would we expect countries to be different to pizzas in this regard?
@@alexpotts6520 Very good point Alex......and now you've made me want to order a pizza for lunch! 😋😂
Yeah man there are guys who have moved abroad who I can see man great steps - JGP one prime example. He's not the player he was when he left NZ
We live in a global world lol
You missed David Ribbans, part of the English squad. He was born and raised in South Africa, played his junior rugby for Western Province.
Yeah man he wasn't in the initial squad (when the vid was recorded) but definitely adds one extra to England's list
I wonder how good Tonga, Samoa and Fiji would be if richer countries didn't raid their young players.
Well Tonga and Samoa Rugby teams are both made up of a lot of kiwis, so…. I’m not sure that stands up as much these days.
they dont have the coaching or facilities so those players would never excel
Interesting. With the Fijian Drua and Moana Pacifica franchises now, that should provide a professional pathway for Pacific Islanders hence less reason to go and ply their trade abroad
@@olglez9230 still no money for playing international
Good point
South Africa: "we are proud to produce great players for our clubs and national team!"
Scotland: let me introduce myself
There's always a South African somewhere man, wherever there's a rugby team, lol
@@TwoCentsRugby Having removed their 6N players from their professional clubs, it is absolutely shocking how few Scottish born or even Scottish heritage players are left playing for those clubs. Watching the Edinburgh v Cell C Sharks game from the weekend was like watching Super Rugby.....
Personally I think they are killing their development by blocking potential rugby careers by outsourcing players. They don't have enough decent Scottish born / heritage players to fill their *two* professional clubs when they take their nationals out???? It really is quite shocking.
@@Karma-qt4ji Well, they do, it's just that the South African overspill is more competitive because they have a much bigger player pool, and as professional clubs Edinburgh & Glasgow have to play to be competitive to balance their books rather than to develop Scottish players like they're a AAA affiliate in American sport, and if that means playing a bunch of Bok overspill rather than untried or unproven Scottish qualified players then so be it.
Maybe the solution would be a centralised academy similar to what the Italians are doing, but as long as the Scottish national team is doing OK and there are enough strong players from the diaspora that the team still feels Scottish for the most part, they aren't likely to see it as something that needs to be changed.
@@ofs82 Is the Scottish national team doing okay? I hadn't noticed....
What they (you?) are doing with all the South Africans, is telling their own youth that they prefer to spend your money on players who come from countries with good development programs, rather than on development programs of their own. At present, they are making up the national team numbers with 2nd generation expats and outsiders, and since the last mass exodus to colonies was just after WWII, the 'grandkids' pool is drying up so rapidly that it is just a matter of time before the Protea replaces the Thistle on the national jersey...
Expect to see more and more South African born players plying their trade for other nations in the future. Many reasons for this which I don’t want to go into since it might be opening can of worms. Also, I expect to see more 1st generation immigrants (I.e. players with South African parents) running out for their countries in future!
Negri;s dad still lives in Zimbabwe, bumped into him at the shops the other day. Negri was 50/50 raised in Zim and South Africa - mostly did senior school in South Africa.
So Negri is technically a Rhodesian? Quite ironic with that surname.
Btw i thought there were no Europeans left there after recent events, his dad has balls.
@@Bolognabeef To be a Rhodesian he would have to have been born before 1979, which he wasn't, so technically he's a Zimbabwean. And yes, there are about 25000 native whites left in Zimbabwe. I am one, and I still live here.
Good to get into the detail. But yeah most internal UK migration basically goes from the outer bits to England and specifically the SE/London. So being born in England isn't a big deal for Wales/Scotland as you're not even moving to a different state.
Scotland also handled the early professional era incredibly badly, which was 25 years ago but that's how old these players are. So smaller participation numbers, less professional clubs etc. etc. You can partly see it in the likes of Cam Redpath, Adam Hastings, previously Garry Graham, who are literally the sons of Scotland internationals who plied their trade professionally in England/France.
Also I think Scottish people just get about a lot, there's a big diaspora. My great uncles/aunts all moved to Australia/Canada/New Zealand in the 50s so my Da never even met them. Most my Uncles/Aunts also emigrated at some point, barely see my cousins.
Brilliant clear graphs and explanations thank you
You're very welcome!
At last , someone talking sense on this subject. Scotland are often criticised for playing too many “foreigners” , and for years I have challenged what that means, differentiating between bloodline and residency.
For me , having a bloodline is stronger and more important that residency, especially for a country with such a large diaspora as Scotland. Your analysis demonstrates this point.
If you use residency as the foreign criteria then Italy lead the way, with the other 5 nations all including between 2 and 3 in their squads, ie, no difference between them.
A very valid debate is how strong the bloodline needs to be, should it be limited to parents rather than grandparents as the current rules dictate? I can see arguments for both and read an interesting article on Sione Tuipuloto who qualifies through a grandparent - in it he acknowledges he doesn’t look Scottish, doesn’t sound Scottish, but having been brought up by his Scottish granny and now living in the country, feels as Scottish as the next man.
Bloodline Sbloodline. Why should someone qualify through where their granny was born? It's irrelevant. The main factor should be where you learned your rugby.
@@rogerpattube absolute nonsense, the rules as they stand work fine. Your method would put France and England into unassailable positions.
I think it shows how much the Scotts have helped the Commonwealth and traveled over the years. Not to mention the will and fight to play for us.
Complicity in empirical domination and invasion. Check west indies for scots names amongst local population due to forcible procreation with the then enslaved population
Great video, really interesting. Coming from a Dad who has 2 Sons who have Scottish parents, and an Irish Grandparent, but born and raised in England.
Further, Marcus Smith was born to an English Father and Filipina mother. He is English.
good video! it would be wicked to have photos of every foreign player on the side when you mention them
Remember when they fast tracked Zola Budd into the British Olympic team, it’s been going on in different sports for years.
Thnx for the video. I appreciate you looking over the stats and giving some thoughts on both sides of the argument . I come from the Scottish borders and enjoyed playing and watching rugby. I have never liked seeing the nationalistic argument every year amongst other things especially since it has been the case for more years than people think. I understand the different points about it and can feel aggrieved for lacking in development for the younger age groups and other options/routes within the country especially when the SRU could of done better over the years in quite a few aspects. However, I feel more people assume more than fully look at the actual reasons why we struggled in regards to this over the years, nor at the individual players and their reasons why and how they play for us. I think and hope that there will be an improvement for getting more people from the academies, U19-21s and grassroots. It will take some time and probably will be after the world cup before more changes happen. Not everyone will be born Scottish from these routes either and don't have to be. Also though there might be a bigger improvement in numbers, I don't think it will be close to the other UK nations either. Overall it's never an easy argument to simply say yes or no. I am glad to see the players we have had over the years play regardless of birthplace and to see even some return now as well. At the end of the day I hope everyone enjoys a good year of international rugby from wherever you are.
V interesting video. And BTW that wc Italy kit is frickin swag!
England total moves to 5 now with Dave Ribbans in the squad for the injured Courtney lawes. Ribbans born and raised in SA played for stormers then across to Northampton were he qualifies on residency. FYI
He actually qualifies through and English born grandfather.
He actually qualifies through and English born grandfather.
@@alanb9443thanks for the update
This is not at all surprising but still really interesting. Can you do a comparison to Southern Hemisphere teams? I feel like we tend to only take local players in the South. In SA we occasionally poach from Zim i suppose
Samoa and Fiji may want a word with only take in local.
@@MrBrianofarrell 15/32 players in the Samoan squad born in NZ. 13/32 Tongan squad born in NZ... NZ may want a 'word'..
In all fairness to South Africa - and the argies for that matter - they probably have more home grown/ born players than anybody else in World Rugby.
We poach from zim? Name any other players bedside beast😬
@@koketsoncongwane1602 Brian Mujati, Bob Skinstad, Chavhanga.. Quite a few domestic players and some serious high school ballers. Interestingly enough David Pocock the aussy captain is from Zim too
You've missed Home Born/Foreign Raised as Alex Dombrandt would fall into this category most definitely.
Played up to U14s in Surrey (no DPP, or county interest) at which point his side folded due to lack of numbers and he left the game and cricket became his sport. Went to Cardiff Met on the advice of older schoolmates who' d gone there and 'fell into the rugby programme'. Exploded into the first team (see Cardiff Met footage of BUCS matches), qualified for Wales U20 Six Nations as a Welsh student, BUCS Super Rugby final in his final year and then landed at Harelquins, and was winning a Premiership title within 18 months of making his 1st team debut.
It would be interesting to see a similar breakdown of how many went to private school. That’s not far off growing up in a different universe.
Yep. It is harder. No mummy every evening to provide love and decent food, no central heating, discipline provided courtesy of successive older year groups and total lack of privacy. You live as part of a team and fight as part of a team. You are quite right, private school (particularly boarding schools) are much more physically hardening and psychologically hard than the schools that the majority of kids go to for a few hours a day. I like the point that you have made and agree with you 100%.
@@richardjoseph9002 interesting, I wasn’t especially thinking about boarding. As a parent, I can’t imagine sending my children away like that. But then perhaps that is selfish of me?
Private education is also a strong indicator of socio-economic background.
I wasn’t really attempting to assign a value of hardness to the experience.
A cursory search suggests that around 15% of private school students board, which is probably why it did not spring to mind.
As you are concerned with how hard the experience may be, would you think that the 85% of students who are day students also have it harder?
@@BiscuitGeoff Geraint, no - day pupils have it easy! However, my memories of boarding are mostly about having fun, but the threat of violence and the need to develop trust with peers was ever-present.
My, perhaps, unsolicited response was as a result of having to put up with the class--ridden suggestion that private school boys had a soft school experience. My school had (just before I arrived) two England U18 forwards of the day - 'Stig' Brown and 'Tubby' MacAteer. Terrifing by name alone!
@@richardjoseph9002 oh, I’ve read too many memoirs (and spoken to a few ex-boarders) to have any illusions that boarding is easy. The general impression I have had is that the positives (networking, extra curricular stuff, oxbridge) is meant to compensate for the hardship but for some people it definitely does not.
I have some friends who teach at a respected private school. Their children go to the (good) local comp.
I was born in Argentina and I have lived more than 50% of my life abroad, I could also use the argument that my grandparents were all Europeans, but in any case, I still feel 100% Argentinean! You cannot change that feeling so easily. Perhaps I could still theoretical play for another country, but that in my eyes will always be a travesty...an excuse to hire mercenaries and to destroy the soul of this beautiful game.
@@garysmith5025 Hey Gary, Martin here. I understand, but you were born from Scottish parents and the Finnish connection was more like an accident. I am talking more of people that get nationalized Italian when they were not born there and the closest connection with that country are either their great-grandparents or having worked in Italy for a couple of years (economic refugees). In your particular case, I would not see a problem if you play for either SCO or FIN, but I would certainly be disgusted to hear that now you suddenly discovered your love for NOR after some club in Oslo offered you a juicy contract. I hope my point is clearer now. Cheers!
You say that “you cannot change that feeling easily”. But you absolutely can.
Look at Nick Tompkins. Played every age grade for England, and then went on to represent the England Saxons. But when it became clear he was unlikely to get selected for the senior team, he defected to Wales. Johnny Williams did the same thing.
It’s easy to say “I couldn’t play for someone else” when you’re not in a position to get selected for any team.
Read the tuipulotu article on the bbc sport page under Scottish rugby. He says it perfectly. Doesn’t feel Scottish himself but his granny is Scottish and feels all the emotions to make her proud. It’s a great article.
@@attackpatterndelta8949 Ohhh, you did not understand my first comment. I never said I couldn't play for another country... I just said that would be a travesty! Two separate things. I would play anytime for a team that offers me the possibility of becoming famous/rich or of playing in a top tournament, but I would be doing it for reasons other than representing my true colors.
@@robbiemacdonald777 Sounds like an excuse to me... although, it may be true, we will never know I guess. It is actually impossible to know if that feeling is real or just a lovely strategy to avoid being call a mercenary.
Fascinating video and excellently done.
Absolutely shocked and somewhat appalled but the Scotland statistic! If half your squad are foreigners, there surely is no way you can be competing under the Scottish flag!?!
Take your shock and appalled elsewhere. There is no problem with them competing for Scotland.
Just like there is no issue with players in any of the other teams.
The rules allow it, the players wish to be there so a bit like the SA bench situation suck it up and shut up.
Great video and very interesting. Good to see something different on rugby videos. Keep up the great work!
The stats regarding the UK nation's foreign players are very misleading.
Britain is one country subdivided into little nations. People move around between all the nations and always have done for thousands of years. We all share the same culture(ish) all the same TV, Government, Army etc. To say someone who was born in England and plays for Scotland is foreign seems very weird to me. They aren't foreign whatsoever. The Irish and Scandinavians are all over the UK as well and have been for thousands of years. People go back and forward planting their seeds through these islands. It's all the same DNA. It's only man-made imaginary borders that divide people and have them believing they represent a certain flag.
In another day & age your attitude was called imperialism
@@oldoddjobs Your tone reeks of Communism.
@@oldoddjobs the badge is a big clue
Italy are missing a few players who would bump the numbers up:
Ioane, Halafihi, Faiva, Steyn, Nemer.
At least 3 of those would be picked if available
Super interesting video. At the end of the day in 2023 countries, residency and allegiance are a lot more free flowing. Like, if a country attracts someone because of their league/facilities/education/lifestyle quality then they should be able to use those players in their squad. Likewise if a player feels a connection to somewhere else because of their heritage, they should also be able to play and represent. I mean even if the only appeal is “getting to play international rugby” (sooner) then that country has the right to play them, it’s just that clearly it will be more of a coaching challenge to make that team successful.
Yeah man people are gonna move about - I've got two kids and they weren't born in the same countries! I'll be interested to see how things shift with longer residency requirements
grandparents or residency- it's a fair way to do it - residency is 3 years. My kids could play for:
Scotland (father, mother 50%), Wales (Mother 50%), England (mother 50%)
5 million people live in Scotland - the global population of Scots is more than 20million (wiki says 28-40m)
Great vid and thanks for sharing TC
Good stuff thanks. It would have been nice to have the context of the general population figures. I think it often overlooked that many countries have far larger pools to draw on then others.
It's far more interesting to look at registered players rather than population. There are only 3 countries out of the top 12 national teams with less registered players than Ireland. One of them is Scotland, but the others are Italy and Samoa. Ireland punches WAY above their weight considering how many people play the game. The biggest volume of players comes from South Africa, they have 600k registered players, which is rather insane considering Ireland have less than 100k. It does explain why South Africans are everywhere in Europe though
@@ThatsPlunk good point too
@@ThatsPlunk 83k for wales 87k Italy Scotland 50k I would say if Ireland are punching above their weight then wales have done so also over the years. England has 382k
I’m just pleased that Lawrence Delalio and Mike Catt were allowed to opt for England all at the end of the C20th. And it was good that Jason Robinson was permitted to cross over from League to Union, which had obviously been a more contentious situation historically.
This only makes Italy's recent form more astounding and takes a little of the shine off Scotland's impressive showing.
Is anybody seriously questioning the Scottish credentials of Cam Redpath, whose dad captained Scotland, and was only in France/England because that's where his dad played / coached? Does anybody believe that if Basil had stayed in Scotland that Cam wouldn't have grown up to be an exceptional rugby player? Also, Watson and Price both played for Scotland at age group level so clearly considered themselves Scottish from an early age, and both have played all their senior professional rugby in Scotland - who can say whether they would have become the players they are now if they had stayed at Leicester / Bedford academies respectively.
Residency is murkier and I think one world cup cycle (4/5 years) is about right, however richer countries scouring Tier 2 countries for talent and offering kids scholarships is a concern. I'd also have a qualification period for somebody with just 1 qualifying grandparent (say 1 year), because those are tenuous.
What irritates me is those who declare categorically what another person should feel about their nationality. My son was born in London (mum is English) and has lived all his life outside the UK, however he absolutely considers himself Scottish - his sister would be more likely to describe herself as English.
Every single country has made use of residency qualifications to a greater or lesser degree when it has suited their purpose, so some of the comments here claiming any kind of moral high ground because there are currently only 4 'foreign players' is utter bollocks.
That said, good video @twocentsrugby.
I do love the “was only born in France cos his dad was playing there” argument. It’s like me saying “My sister was only born in Swansea cos my dad got a job there”. It doesn’t change the fact that that’s where she was born.
And what input have Scotland had on Cameron Redpath’s development? He went to Sedbergh School, played all his pro rugby in England and represented England at age grade level. He was even selected for the England senior team. Then Scotland swooped in and poached him, like they have done with so many other players.
The reason a player was born in that country doesn't affect anything, apart from a mild perception shift. Neither does where that person 'considers themselves' to be from. Scotland have fewer players to choose from, sure... By a long way, but their team is a mashup of all sorts of countries, it's basically a South Africa and English B team.
I'm half Scottish, quarter English and Italian, grew up in England, yet people are always shocked that I would play for Scotland!
It would seem some people are. Not sure you get more qualified than yer dad was captain but hey ho.
Vunipola played all of his early rugby in Wales; he went to an English school at age 16 for sixth-form. So 2 years in the English school system, and 10 + in the Welsh.
I played against the vunipolas when I was 11 playing against pontypool schools
Except that’s not true. The Vunipolas moved to England when they were 12 and 10 respectively. They both played for Thornberry RFC in Gloucestershire.
The Welsh always like to say that the Vunipolas grew up in Wales. But they grew up in England too. Something that is conveniently left out of the Welsh narrative.
I never saw them after schools district. Going through the age grades we played Gwent County ever season and even into dragons -16s you never saw the vunipolas or falatau.
It does not bother me if National teams have " foreign" players as long as they qualify on legitimate grounds. Rugby is a proffessional sport and i for one will not complain about a young man who wishes to make the most of a demanding and shortsport career. As long as it is above board .
South Africa is thought for local born players
Think we need to export more
Very proud on all of them
I was born in Spain to English and Swedish parents, moved away before I was one, raised in a mixture of Sweden, England and the States, and live in England as an adult. Where you were born means next to nothing in terms where you are "from" xD
Can’t wait for it to start. This is the place to be for 6 Nations analysis. 👍
I prefer locally sourced artisanal free range Rugby players!
Ange Capouozzo born in France, grow in France, trained in France, have double nationality
If you played in the school boys structures you are local.
I think once you have represented age group for a country you shouldn't be allowed to switch allegiance. At least not on residency.
That U20 spot is an opportunity lost for another kid, and when you think of the millions spent in development structures each year in order to churn out a handful of potential international caliber players a year.
Tommy Allen also spent a good amount of time in South Africa. saffa accent anyway. Scottish father (played for Scotland?).
If you can do a passable Scottish accent you should qualify. That or a Scottish sounding name. [joke - but it does seem to be the logic!]
I really like these sort of videos, thank you 🙂
Glad you like them!
England & New Zealand always get the most stick for this but they are always on the low end.
With Ireland it would usually be lower but with injuries Bealham came in for Furlong and O'Toole had to come in as well.
Someone who was born in another country and then moved when they were young is no problem it’s more important where their development was.
John Cooney will be an "interesting" Scotsman. Imported players have been an essential element for Ireland because of the small professional player pool who qualify by birth. As the pool has expanded the need has become less dramatic but it is likely to remain something of a feature particularly if the "playing in Ireland" criterion remains in force. Scotland is likely to remain dependent given the narrow elite club structure. Italy's centralised Academy system has been central to the emerging strength, so last year's decision to disrupt that model in favour of a club-based system seems damaging. Given the scale of the player base and the large numbers of professional players, it seems odd that England should have any foreigners. But when you look at the number of foreign players in the professional clubs, reducing the opportunities for "local" players and soaking up a disproportionate dollop of scarce financial resources, it may be an inevitable consequence.
I think you need to understand the basis of the UK really to see the picture here. People move around the whole of the country and just moving two miles up the road can turn you from being, say, English born to Welsh or Scottish. Then you have parents who have similar backgrounds. I’d really count only those from outside the UK as properly “foreign born”. A great example is Shaun Edwards who has Welsh ancestry but is as English as you can come, he had a large decision to make when considering which country to be affiliated with. Then one can start to debate the rights and wrongs of those who have moved into the UK.
I'm Scots and grew up in South Africa. Live in England where my three kids were born of which two have Aussie passports. It's encouraging to see what can be done when you look at Italy with just two pro teams. I think with Scotland, like in my situation, they are always going to have players born in England to Scots parents. I'm not a fan of the residency law, although as a contradiction happy to have the players we have, but it is what it is. The switching of allegiance, Dempsey has Scottish family as does McConnachie and if John Cooney switches, his father is Scots. I think barring the three, all the others have blood links. It's not a perfect situation but we don't make the rules. Even with only two pro teams we still have quite a few foreign players across the two - should we have a cap on foreigners to blood more younger players (are there enough of them) - downside being our teams would be less competitive as both sides lose a huge chunk to the internationals.
Mr worldwide
@@JGDT5559 Ja ekse.
While I don't particularly like players being eligible after 3 years or 5 years of residency, when their home unions refuse to consider players playing overseas you can see why that rule is in place. But if a player has played at high school in a country to which their family has emigrated they should be eligible for either their country of residency or their country of birth. It would be great to see players choosing to play for a Pacific nation over Australia or NZ, but I guess they feel they have a better chance of playing at a higher level with the bigger unions.
The UK is different, with people moving within a single country, they should have the right to choose based on where they learnt to play, birth place, or ancestral heritage.
The least van der Merwe can do is change his surname to MacMerwe 🤣
If a player has lived in a country from a young age, been through that Union’s development system, played all their pro rugby in that country, I don’t see a problem with them playing for that country at senior level.
What I don’t like is one Union coaching a player and putting in the time and cost to develop them, for another Union to come in and poach that player, just because they’ve got a grandad that was from that nation. That doesn’t sit right.
The player should be allowed to do so after qualifying through residency (4 years).......on the proviso that 50k transfer fee be paid to the "home union" for the players develoment.
UK is an interesting case. Four nations with no borders between them, but rugby is disproportionately a sport of the privately educated, and the privately educated gravitate towards centres of wealth and power (England). Huw jones or cam Redpath for example, both from very Scottish families, but are considered foreign born players.
Huw Jones was born in Scotland.
Except in Wales.
Interesting update, thanks!
Btw with the new eligibility rules I am curious to know if that changed something for pacific teams. Samoa did quite good last year, but I don't know if they benefited that much from those new regulations.
The very "here and now" italian squad have really low amount of foreign born/trained players, that's true, but to be fair some of them have not been selected because of injury or other reasons...in fact neither Ioane and Halafihi are on the list, nor Nemer and Traorè. The first two are qualified through residency and they were born in Australia and New Zealand respectively, Traorè as well actually but he arrived in Italy when he was a child and he was born in Guinea. Nemer is qualified through a grandparent and he was born in Argentina. David Sisi, out for injury at the moment, was born in Germany but he lived in Scotland and raised as a player in England, qualified through his paternal grandparents. Speaking about Marco Manfredi, quite new to the squad, he was born in Germany just because his mother is german, but he has been raised and trained in Italy, by the way.
The example of Redpath is his birth location and years of trade is arbitrary. Hes from an exclusively Scottish family and his location was based on his dads career.
No wonder the Scot play barbarian style rugby sometimes. Their team is basically a barbarian set up
Excellent subject TC, and very well presented. It was nice to see the numbers represented on the pie-chart and then the bar graph. It gives you an idea of how big or small of a chunk the overall squad are "foreign". The Scottish number of 21 is high but as you mention, most of them can be explained by the closeness of life/work on the Island. I think its good to see that the numbers are down from last year. My view is that if someone hasn't attended second level school (high school, from say the age of 13 to 15) then they should not be eligible to play for that country.
- I've nothing against Lowe, Aki and Hanson but they are not really Irish. Their only allegiance to the country is that it is where they have earned their living for the last few years. Learning and singing the national anthem fools nobody.
- It is a dis-incentive to non-foreign players to put in the work and effort to make their national side.
- it robs talent from other nations, which affects smaller nations (Pacific Islands) more significantly.
I have no problem with young men and women going to foreign clubs to earn their living but the National team should be different.
One issue that would still exist if my idea was the rule. There would be countries like NZ where there would be loads of excess players better than players on other national sides who might never get to play international Rugby. And that is tough. Perhaps allow these countries have a B team ? And compete in the tier two international competitions ?
It happens in Athletics at the moment in endurance running. Countries like Turkey buy up the Kenyans who cannot make the the Kenyan national team and they tend to dominate the European championships. Some of these Kenyan (and other African) athletes have never even been to Turkey. Other countries do it also but Turkey is the biggest culprit. If it was stopped then these elite athletes would never get to compete internationally.
Nothing personal about the 3 "Irish" players I mention above, but I would prefer to have 3 Irish homegrown players on the squad instead and lose, rather than win with them. In the long run, it would be better of the development of the game in Ireland. 10% of the Irish squad is not Irish.
Hansen's Mother is Irish, he was here less than a year before his debut
@@PdiddyDub I stand corrected, thanks for educating me. There was 3, who was the other player with no family ties to Ireland ?
@@creekyknee Gibson-Park
It annoys me, even Hanson! He should have still done a certain amount of residence time before being allowed to play. Parent rule ok, not grandparents. A certain Munster player this season had more emerging Ire caps than Munster caps! What does that say to a homegrown player? Ala Healy! Some don't know the Anthem.
@@creekyknee Lowe, Gibson-Park and Aki I think. I tend to agree with your views, by the way, the qualification standard should be set higher. Having said that, those three fellahs give everything on the field, and i think they deserve our support
The real reason Dvdm ended up in Scotland was because of the incident between his brother and a Springbok in 2019. It's personal between Bok management and van der Merve's...
Now I'm curious. What happened? If its the Schalk Brits fight you're talking about I really doubt that was the reason for him going to Scotland, there were many
What do you think of the new tackle rules? I’m not convinced they’re paying much attention to the research, fans or players. I personally feel like this is a bad idea that will lead to more injuries to the tackler, but obviously I’m from a Northern Hemisphere perspective so people may not feel the same way. If they are going to insist on it they’ll have to look at punishment rules and rates for illegal tackles too, bad tackles can be missed during the match so there’s a lot more to it than just slapping a single blanket rule on and calling it a day.
Yeah I think I agree, the tackler is the one most at risk so changes should be prioritising them. I meant to go check what Ross Tucker said as he usually explains it quite well.
I think it should be the players who decide on protocols and the direction the pro game goes in, and whatever they say, goes. It says something interesting (and disturbing for me) about the direction we are going when one looks at how conspicuously ignored the point of view of the players is, at least in the narrative around the issue (sports journalists, social media pundits, WR, match officials, etc.).
@@dalenewton9697 it doesn’t work like that, the current players aren’t the only ones affected, the fans are too. Players should be part of the discussion but certainly not deciders of it. At the end of the day, fans won’t get behind teams they don’t feel represents them.
@@april-tui3524 Not sure what you are referring to ('not how it works). My post is about how it SHOULD work(that's kind of the point). It's the players careers, their health, their injuries their legacy, and should be their decision. Also, WR aren't doing it on a rationale of entertainment for fans. They're doing under the rationale of player welfare, and if it's player centered, it should be player decided (even though the idea of it being player centered appears to be just pretext from WR, juding by the new rules and protocols and the clubs and players reactions). Fan entertainment (if that is the real reason) is not a justifiable reason for stripping players of their agency and voice, or forcing a version of the game onto them they don't want to play in my view. In practical terms we've also seen from the NBA what happens next there. What they should do, if indeed they have been stripped of agency to the degree they appear to have looking in from the outside, is form break away unions. One where WR get's to do it's paternalist/despotic thing, and other unions for players who want to play traditional rugby and decide the direction the game goes in (at the elite level).
Would you say form your perspective players are very much involved in deciding the direction the pro game is going currently? Certainly doesn't seem that way from where Im sitting.
You can't argue with the people who have dual nationality . The issue for me are the naturalized citizens. The 3 kiwis for Ireland and the 3 Safas for Scotland
As a saffa seeing another saffa sing flower of Scotland is hilarious. Like the culture gap is ridiculous 🤣
If I was Gatland and Townshend I would go on a holiday together driving around the east coast of NZL provinces locking for anyone with a Welsh or Scottish grandmother
Just look for "Mc"s and Macs in phone book
@@rogerpattube Jones, Davies etc for Gatland tho ..... Mcs and Macs could Irish too - wires crossed ?
Man… feels like just yesterday i was hearing ´´6 nations 2022 folks’’
To answer your question Italy’s registered player count is larger than both Scotland and Wales combined at around 90,000 registered players from memory.
If you are in Italy, Germany is not usually considered to be "overseas".
Yeah makes sense, I'm from NZ so everywhere to me is "overseas" 😅
@TwoCentsRugby Hoi Marc! Why are you considering only 1 Argentine player in Italy? Both Iván Nemer and Ignacio Brex are from Argentina. Also, having an Italian "parent" in Argentina is very common since the Italian passport is literally given to anyone who wants it and has any relative of Italian origin up to 3 generations back. This, coupled with the constant economic crises in Argentina, makes that a large proportion of Argentina's population has a second nationality/passport (mostly European) to give them a second chance if things get rough economically at some point. cheers!
I don't think Nemer was named in the initial squad mate! But yeah definitely a lot of Arg/Ita connections! ;)
@@TwoCentsRugby Nemer has been part until recently, but I was not sure exactly which team you were considering for the analysis. Now I know! Thanks.
Nemer is not in squad dued a racial issue vs Traorè in Benetton Treviso
@@kekkuzzo75 Indeed, and I think he will not be back in a long time.
Cheering for laundry at this stage.
Interesting analysis 🤔 You should also consider the number of professional clubs from each nation:
Scotland 2
Wales 4
Ireland 4
England 12
Yes, so you would think Scotland having only 2 teams surely could find 20 players that are actually Scottish. Not born and raised on another continent. Being born in other parts of the UK and representing another country is fair enough. But another continent is taking the p!ss.
@@chriswood753 We should be picking the best talent from our 2 pro clubs to represent our nation. It makes no difference to me if they're English, Irish, SA, Welsh, Italian born. They are the best players for our clubs and have every right to be selected to play for our nation. We're all Jock Tampson's bairns!
I wonder if any National team is fully born in the country they play for, such as Argentina. It would be nice if you dig up that info! Many thanks for the hard work!
It's probably the residency aspect that gets most people riled/confused. The parent/grandparent is perfectly understandable, me thinks.
I think the same as you, you cannot deny a player to represent a country if part of his family are frome there.
Its understandable but not logical for determining qualification to represent a country.
In England we define Nationality from the Father NOT where you are born. My brother was born in Limassol Cyprus to English Parents and is English. In 1981, The British Govt. passed the Nationalities Act that effectively forbids English people from calling themselves English! The same applies to the Scots, Welsch and Northern Irish!!
Further, England is the only Nation in World Rugby that is not allowed to play our own National Anthem! We are forced by The British to use God Save The Queen/King which is not our National Anthem!!!
For Ireland what does irritate me is that 1/5 of our usual starting team are Kiwis who had zero link to Ireland. No offence to the Kiwis but does feel pretty mercenary.
They may have zero link but as long as they play and give it 100% their best, that matters not. If they were mercenaries, why haven't they gone to France or maybe even back home?
Mercenaries the wrong labels by far, professional players who are working and living here some for a short time some for a long time, Irish lads go the other way too
Not for me. If they proudly represent the country it's fine. I've seen some of these crying with emotion at the anthem, and after a great victory. I'm not so closed minded as others. Plus, we live in a global world now, it's no longer the closed insular world of the past.
I personally couldn’t play for another team other than England as national teams shouldn’t be as easy to move around like club teams. Do understand players trying to make a living but it’s the rulings that are an issue. It should be seen as a pleasure to play for the country you are from as you shouldn’t just be able to choose
If you aren’t born in a country your bloodline should be of that country
I'm not bothered by this tbh. Nationality is fluid, people's national identity can change over their lives and people can have multiple nationalities at once. Even more so in the 6N where three (and a half) of the competing nations are part of the same sovereign state.
Yeah man definitely not a black and white one
Yeah its all fluid in fact the men should also be able to play for the women and vice versa. Its all fluid like you say. No rules is fun!
@@rogerpattube I think you know that's a silly comparison. The male and female games have always been separated because of the obvious advantage in upper-body strength and other physical attributes males have over females. It's obviously unreasonable to let cisgender men play in women's rugby, not only would it not be a level playing field but this is a contact sport, there would be significant safety concerns.
Obviously sex is not in the same category as nationality. While obviously some countries are stronger than others, this is a consequence of culture rather than genetics. The problems with fairness and safety obviously don't apply here.
It does seem a bit mercenary but you have to consider parentage as parents can have a strong influence over which country their child aligns to. An example I could give is I am Scottish and my ex-wife is English. When my 2 boys were younger and misbehaved I would tell them that they qualify to play rugby for England, after a few tears, tantrums and denials, the boys behavior was impeccable. Be safe all
Lolol yeah my kids were born in two different countries to parents of two different nationalities - people moving about is definitely a fact of life
Good video, but any English or French guys complaining have to agree they have a huge player pool population to pick from than the other teams. If Scotland's team were full of residency guys I would agree with criticism, but 18 with either parents or Grand parents are legitimate picks for Scotland.
Tomasso Allan also Learnt a bunch of rugby through the Western Province Institute in Stellenbosch.
Yes, but he also played in France at Perpignan, team that he is rejoining to next season. He definitely didn't learn his rugby in Italy but he is italian, he was born in Italy, his mother is a former rugby player and his scottish father too, they both played in Italy. At 23 he came back to Italy to play for Benetton the next 5 years. When he speaks italian, he has the same accent as me, typical of Veneto, region of the north-east of Italy.
His dad Willy Allen is a Saffer
What an excellent time to bring up the subject of “Project Players” in Ireland. Now that’s an excellent subject to discuss.
These are young players who, despite demonstrating potential, haven’t yet made the grade in their own countries. They have been identified by the Irish clubs as people whom it is worth investing time and effort and money in, in order to hopefully develop their potential and ultimately benefit the club by filling in gaps which might appear in the otherwise vast player development operations in Ireland.
There are Project Players who just don’t make the grade and they return home to their countries never to be heard of by the general rugby public or audience. Of the relatively few project players that do make the grade at the Irish clubs, they can if they so wish (remember, it is a personal decision) go on to represent Ireland based upon the fact that they have resided in Ireland for the period of time that World Rugby has set out in the laws and regulations.
The four obvious examples nowadays are Rob Herring, Bundee Aki, Jamison Gibson-Park and James Lowe. All of these guys were very raw uncut gems with huge potential. But they had to work extremely hard over several years to develop that potential and learn the game and learn about themselves. They still possess some flaws, as most players do (nobody’s perfect). They have chosen to represent the country where they have developed into the players that they have become. They could have just as easily gone back home to their own countries and competed for places in their own original national teams but they chose not to.
Thanks to their contributions, Ireland is now the number one team in the world and is one of the three favourites to lift the World Cup later this year, along with France and South Africa.
The “Project Player” system is a good system. In fact it’s an excellent system. It helps the players themselves, it helps the clubs that invest all that time and money in them and ultimately it has helped Ireland to develop as a tier one rugby nation. Although it is arguable that Ireland probably could have developed as such in any event.
Yeah man people give those guys stick but they 100% upped their game abroad. No way JGP was getting near a black jersey, but look at him now
@@TwoCentsRugby : And James Lowe defensive game has improved no end…
The Project Player system is incredibly cynical. It’s basically a Union admitting “We can’t develop a player of sufficient standard in a particular position, so we’ll poach someone else’s and select them for the national team in 3 years.”
@@attackpatterndelta8949 it's the clubs that seek experienced or high potential players from abroad not the Union. Remember the IRFU forced Ulster to let Ruan Pienaar go.
@@attackpatterndelta8949 : No, it’s not the Union. It’s the club.
Scotland should be renamed as the United Nations.
Don't think that's funny. ??
You would not repeat your utter tripe if there were a few Scots around.?? Grow up not a nice comment to the Scots.
another sore loser ?
Great podcast mate. I actually expected more south Africans due to the political measures in place in our sport! Many white Saffers have migrated from south African rugby to other rugby playing nations primarily due to race quota requirements for teams playing in South Africa! Therefore, those players have looked for work opportunities elsewhere. Also, due to the extremely weak Rand, professional rugby players would rather earn foreign currency!!!
The number of athletes that are registered in the Italian and Scottish federations (any age) is comparable, so I suppose the player pools for the National team is comparable too, with two pro teams and all.
What you say is incorrect. Italy has double the number of clubs and double the playing pool. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries
So Scotland at a disadvantage to start with. Beyond this the difference here probably relates to Scotland's role in the British Empire and the legacy of this. And then of course the movement between Scotland and England which is the same as moving between Sicily and Milan for example.
The true number to watch is those playing through residency alone
Lol Flament was born in France but learned his rugby all over the place
Bundee Aki's grandfather is from the Aki's of Athenry.
Right so he's basically born and bred Irish. The fact he is the product of another country's rugby training system is irrelevant.
@@rogerpattube @Paul Marconi was being tongue in cheek! Bundee has no previous connection with Ireland. (However, I for one, am very glad that he came to live and play in Connaught and became eligible to play for Ireland)
England has a population of 56 million .Ireland 6 million ,Wales ? 3 million ,Scotland ? 4, France ? 67 million Italy / 57 million Rugby is Irelands fourth popular game behind Soccer,GAA , hurling .
i actually though there would be more, such are the results of professionalism where players have to strive to get the best for themselves. Roughly 10% which is hardly groundbreaking. If you took soccer for instance you might be lucky to have 10% local in the big clubs but its a different game and probably unfair to compare
I would suggest that Scotland be renamed as "The Tartan Invitational XV".
Interesting video, I was born in England, raised in England but half my family is welsh. I would give my life to play with wales
I think Scotland are entitled to immunity from anyone intending to take shots at them over having the highest percentage of foreign players in the team. Remember, they've only two professional clubs, not four. They simply don't have the numbers to make up the team in terms of local talent, so I've no problem with them taking a number of foreign players if absolutely necessary. But they really need to try establish at least a third club if possible. And that won't be easy as back in the late 90s, they did have 2 more clubs (Caledonia Reds and Border Reivers) but they both wound up.
Well the other way to look at that is they don’t have the talent or interest to field their own team. I don’t understand why you’d name a team the Scottish national team if you can’t get enough Scottish players to represent you. It’s the whole point isn’t it, the team is meant to represent the actual people of the country!
@@april-tui3524 You make a valid point April, but it's not as black and white as you think. As long as that team and organisation is established in that country as it was over a century ago, that's what they can call it as they wish. As I mentioned, Scotland used to have more professional clubs and therefore their national team had purely Scottish players but that luxury no longer exists. To be fair, if a foreigner comes in, and say sets up base there and calls it home, and say contributes to the economy or society of that country, shouldn't they be considered a member of that country? Jean Kleyn is a prime example. He's a natural Saffa, and was either going to play in SA or give up the sport. But Munster called him, and he accepted the offer to play in Ireland. He's here over 6 seasons now, and a lot of his family have moved over. He's married to an Irish woman and has strongly established himself in a country he has ZERO links to.
I'm sure that some of the foreign players in the Scottish team are in the same boat, and they've ZERO links to the country, but they contribute in some way and that's beneficial to the country in itself.
@@conorcahill5422 well I’m a kiwi living in England 20 years and I’m officially a resident but not a citizen. I wouldn’t call myself English ever, so I wouldn’t ever feel like it’s right to represent English people. My daughter might, she’s been here most of her life. She wouldn’t feel like it was fair to learn her sport here though, and then pop back to NZ with the knowledge and skills provided by England, to represent kiwis- and we’re indigenous kiwis too. To me, it’s about fairness and representation. It isn’t about the one player, it’s about the country they represent and what’s fair for everyone. Obviously world rugby make those rules. But if my country’s team was made up like theirs is, I wouldn’t feel like it was my team. People follow these teams and support them, pay for them, based on pretty deep feelings of nationality and pride. So I think it’s a fine line personally and there’s a bunch of factors to consider.
@@april-tui3524 If you're there 20 years, and you have a passport stating that you are a UK citizen, then you most definitely are if you wish, even if you don't believe that notion, because you have that right, even if you don't feel it. If you contribute in a positive manner to the economy in UK, who are people to tell you otherwise? I'm living in Canada 8-9 months now and I can definitely say that if I end up obtaining citizenship in the next few years, I'll happily call myself Irish-Canadian. There's no shame in that at all.
@@conorcahill5422 it’s not really about ‘shame’ though. I don’t have a British passport, I’ve got a New Zealand passport. I’ll never be British, I’ll always be a Maori New Zealander. I could get citizenship, but it’s £1300 so I don’t see the point! Someone else might feel differently in my position, but that’s just what I think. I fully feel like a member of the community, we pay our way etc it’s our home and where we raised our daughter, but I think it would be strange to call myself English unless I grew up here or was born to English parents. That’s why I wouldn’t ever ‘represent’ English people. I don’t feel the players in the ABs who came over as adults or older teens represent me either.
Have a look at Samoan and Tongan squads.Over 50% of their players born in NZ.
In other words, Scotland takes over Japan as a Baabaas team of "mercenaries" but then again your analysis from that article speaks for itself
Only 3 through residency, everyone else has familial connections, most are Scottish family that moved to England, which is very common.
forgotten about Vander Flier for SA
Please do the same for historically Black teams. Genuinely interested in number of non Kiwi born players.
As an Irishman I have conflicting views on this tbh. I have somewhat of a acceptance for foreign born players with Irish blood (Hansen, Carberry) as to me they have a strong and valid connection. Although, the age they come over to play is an issue. Carberry came over at a very young age, Hansen was much later. To be it’s understandable that a nation of 7 million has affectively 4 residency players in the squad.
4:27 I always get the same with Italy, but with Argentine players!!! Italy always has in field 1 or 2 players from Argentina nationalized using the excuse that one of their grandparent or great-grandparent was Italian (a rule that would then make 60% of Argentina's population technically suitable for playing for Italy... ridiculous!) .
It is not an excuse, the rules said they were allowed to do it and they did it. Nothing more. If part of your family is italian, you can represent Italy, period. Your argument doesn't make any sense.
This is not "an excuse" in the sense that is limited to help us field a better rugby team though, our citizenship laws grant citizenship to anyone whose great-grandparent was Italian, even if they weigh 40kg while soaked :)
I have more of an issue (not really, but for the sake of the argument) when the player becomes eligible after having played 3/4 years in the country than when they can apply for citizenship following the same procedure that wouldn't discriminate them were they a bank teller or a carpenter
I don't know which laws apply in the UK or France, but here in Italy we have iure sanguinis, which means that if one of your parents has Italian citizenship you automatically have it as well. This applies to the likes of Capuozzo, Polledri, Negri etc.
I obviously don't mean to divide into first and second class citizens, as anyone who can acquire our citizenship in any way is more than welcome to do it, but you might say that our foreign born players for this years 6N are all 100% Italian just as well as if they were born here (as opposed to a Kiwi gaining elegibility for having played for Zebre for 4 years or for having married an Italian citizen).