Christianity has the same kinds of problems and the resurrection of Jesus has to be taken on faith. Also Jesus failed to accomplish anything in his life time, so it is pushed off to a second coming that failed to manifest. In short, Jesus was a worthless nobody from an inferior culture that accomplished nothing of note. The Israelites were worthless inferior culture that accomplished nothing of note. The Canaanites were superior. One Canaanite branch built a great empire, that being the Carthaginians. The Israelites benefitted from being colonized by the superior cultures around them. Judea benefitted alot from being colonized by the superior Greek and Roman cultures, i.e. Indo-European cultures. Colonization tends to benefit those being colonized. Jews did not become successful until they were Indo-Europeanized. Cultures are not equal. Some cultures are just better than others. It is obvious that people are not equal. Some people are just better than others. People are not equally intelligent. People are not equally beautiful. People are not equally skilled. Many people are poor because of a misallocation of scarce resources. What is good is greed and selfishness.
Paganism is a nature religion, although there was also an understanding that there was a Great Spirit over it all. Christianity is about consciousness: Christ Consciousness which means being aware not only in the body and environment but in the whole universe. It may be that is the psychic evolution that we will all experience as we evolve in consciousness as well as mentally it will be similar. Being Pagan is going back, not forward. Now Consciousness is ‘the hard problem’ for philosophers. In the East Consciousness and God are one and the same. People are mostly clueless about religion; the definition of which is ‘that to which we are bound.’ I would go with Christianity although now that we are long past the Dark Age it should include nature and the feminine more as Christ himself did. Our time is not just about nature or consciousness but both. ‘Spirit and Nature dancing together, victory to Spirit and victory to Nature”. Not either/ or but both.
As an Orthodox Christian, I was genuinely interested and excited to hear this debate but when it went from Orthodoxy vs Paganism to Orthodoxy vs magic butt sex, I've never laughed so hard.
How in the hell can someone participating in a formal debate say with a straight face that they don't accept logical fallacies as a concept? When this debate started i had hopes this guy would be a formidable opponent for you Jay but was quickly disappointed. Another massacre. 🍻
So called "logical fallacies" are made up by dumb people, that misuse the authority of logic. Those so called "fallacies" are often not fallacies by definition. There are formal logical fallacies and everyone respects those, but logical fallacies are just a part of "critical thinking" propaganda courses
This is the same as every debate with an atheist. Its them making moral claims without understanding that they have no basis for them, and you telling them that their position is contradictory.
Do you have any interest in arranging a debate with Survive the Jive? He seems a little bit more knowledgeable on Paganism than this guy, with all due respect.
Remember seeing a comment about this on STJ's channel where he responded that he wouldn't debate Jay because he's not that into debates. Also he said he saw the last debate Jay done with a perennialist and said "he is only interested in arguing from within the framework of assumptions of an Orthodox christian". Maybe if enough people show interest in it and they can both find a debate structure they agree upon they would do it. Definitely has the potential for a good debate.
I know about Survive the Jive being pagan since he got married in a Christian Church and allegedly honeymooned in a Muslim country, but before Survive the Jive debates Jay Dyer, shouldn’t he debate Marie Cachet (the wife of ThuleanPerspective) first? She challenged Survive the Jive to a debate, yet all he does is call her a placenta worshiper.
I’m so used to seeing Jay aggressively tear down his opponents in a debate, that this video took me by surprise. Jay was genuinely trying to have a conversation here. Many years to you, Jay-may you continue to glorify God!!!
This guy Martel actually had a pretty good strategy... Attempt to overwhelm Jay with endless waves of cringe. Jay gets a Nobel prize for keeping a straight face.
2:54 While I admire a pagan debating a Christian on basically anything. That "I'm not like most Pagans" statement was an immediate red flag. All pagans are autistic, I speak as a former pagan myself. But again I can admit when a man has some amount of virtue and I pray Dave does the best Pagan tradition: Convert to Christianity.
As an Icelander who is well-versed in the Eddas, there is no metaphysics in these stories. Christian priests wrote local folktales a thousand years ago when the Church brought us the Latin alphabet. These are magical myths, and if anyone thinks they can create a complete metaphysical system from Gylfaginning and Völuspá(the Mythic parts of the Eddas), then one should also be able to make one from the Grimm's adventures. Even though I am Christian, I highly treasure this cultural heritage as a form of aesthetic. I am tired of rootless Americans appropriating these folktales just because they got 3% Swede in a DNA test.
I share your sentiment towards my "culturally-enriched" countrymen. Everyone I know seems to be either a Viking or indigenous native now. But you gotta understand (and probably do) that our rootlessness is the end result of generations of applied psyops. Our current cultural identity is recycled children's entertainment from the 80's. Cut us some slack lol.
Fjölnir, borther... of course there's metaphysics in those myths. Creating a complete metaphysical system based on those fragments of the tradition is another thing, but surely it was a more complete whole than we can see in retrospect. It seems to me that men like Snorri at least respected the tradition. I know that you said you treasure the cultural heritage so forgive me if I read too much into your comment.
Well,. this is confusing because the Eddas contain history as well. They speak of the first contact between the Norse and the Skraelings. I wonder how these historical accounts fit into this pagan dude's Theological framework 🤔.
Just finished Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, halfway through The Soul After Death. Got prelest and it's relationship to modern "spirituality" on the mind. Made this debate take on a whole new color.
Haha at first I read this as of your saying “got Prelest….” Meant you acquired Prelest from reading Fr. Seraphim Rose. Which is totally plausible haha. Great stuff.
You know I would like to drink some beers with this Pagan. Even though he is a heretic, I think he ultimately wants what God has given us and called good and is just responding to the degeneracy in this world from the disgusting areas of society today. Obviously as an Orthodox Christian, I think he is woefully misled and I will pray for him and others like him in his neoPagan movement to become Orthodox. Although I do think he was illogical, he was very spirited and at least likable, unlike some of the other people you've debated in the past. He reminds me of some people I know and genuinely like.
Prelest is easy to fall victim to when ones entire theological perspective is based off of indoctrination that is itself both deluded and continually self-deluding. In the face of something so damningly incorrect that has suckled you from birth, and having never been shown the truth of orthodoxy or that it even exists, it’s sometimes difficult to find a solid external foundation, which leads to the belief of “I must be the only one who can tell me the truth”. Not an excuse, but hopefully it confounds you no longer.
@dank bean Not even sure how to respond. Consensus? So the world got together and voted on religion and concluded Christianity? It's the opposite. It was brought on primarily by one man's teachings and being raised from the dead.
This started out pretty interesting, but then it was debate over the second logical fallacies came up. Did he really just argue 2+2=4 because everyone agrees 2+2=4? Jay, you might want to consider giving your guests a quick math+philosophy 101 course before you start these debates, just out of mercy cause I feel bad for the poor education these people have received.
Most of Jay's debates end up not really being debates. Instead, they usually just end up being Jay lecturing the other person on things that they are ignorant of.
No. Jay misunderstood him. It actually wasn’t an appeal to consensus. He was saying that the fact that all of us arrive at 2+2=4 points to a universal law that works no matter who you are. He was saying that if unrelated cultures all come to a similar set of truths, that is evidence that those truths are universal
@@OriginsofEternity yeah this seems to have been the crux of the issue, and the point where the whole conversation just kind of fell apart which is a shame. I think Dave knows more than he's able to articulate properly which evidently leads to an argument that just goes on and on.
@@marlenathorvald I wish you the best of luck in trying to prove that the old testament (or the new one, for that matter) borrowed anything from 'your older gods', whom even your illiterate 9th century ancestors gave up on. But to save you the time and effort, even an atheist scholar would point out that the roots of Christianity are in Judaism whose beginning span from 2000BC to 1000BC, depending on how historically accurate one considers the Bible - whereas the Norse religion is dated at around 500BC.
@@vostok2717 you are right christians don't borrow pagan traditions in the most obvious of ways in all the holidays they celebrate. Not to mention all religions have parallels in what is good. just the fact that you are such an asshole about your religion tells me you are insecure about it. My faith goes back way farther then yours I'm not your teacher and youre an asshole so go look it up yourself. Bottom line is my religions goes all the way back to the beginning so what if people lost faith for a while. Yours goes back to the jews so why not be Jewish?
I'd argue that most modern Western pagans are in fact atheistic naturalists who view the pagan gods more as _Jungian archetypes_ and utilize them as psychological props to support their preferred worldview, rather than believe in them as real, independent spiritual entities. A lot of it is just playing pretend.
These guys were speaking a totally different language. Mr. Martel seems like a reasonable guy, but he simply was not able to argue at the same wavelength that Dyer was. It was difficult to watch for the sake of my empathy towards the opponent that was Dave.
Jay was very patient in this debate and handled it with a degree of pedagogical care. Unfortunately, this man was not prepared to clearly define nor defend his positions. This is a great example to anyone who watches to be willing to learn about the basic of philosophy and argumentation. Great job Jay!
There is never going to be a definitive spokesperson for Paganism™ because no such unified religion exists. Heathenry, Paganism, etc., just like the term “Germanic” itself, are merely umbrella terms which get arbitrarily applied to disparate groups which happen to share perceived commonalities.
@@amblinghearth9857 lol the viking cosplay population is shattered all over the west because their heritage can be found in scandinavia, parts of germany, russia, even parts of Northern France and the british isles. These people have a long history but their heritage was slowly destroyed by long and slow assimilation long ago, thus the of lack texts to actually support their beliefs.
the thing that struck me the most is that he started to kinda bitch about Jay refuting every one of his points accusing him of "tearing him up apart" or that "this is a production". Like breh maybe you just don't really make any sense, don't be part of a debate if you don't want to hear other points of views lol
Its hard to listen to Jay destroy people. I am too empathetic and feel bad for the opponent. I am genuinely shocked I bought into paganism/Hinduism for so long.
Do a debate or an episode with Mike Winger. Maybe on Charismaticism and Pentecostalism? Would be very intriguing I guess. The dude is rather scholarly and sees a lot of negative tendencies for what they are. Two Bible nerds going after each other would be something very original outside the boundaries of protestantism
Dave shows that pragmatism is a poor standard for discerning a valid choice in terms of religious faith. When God showed his power when Moses called out Pharoah, Pharaoh's sorcerers were able to perform many of the same miracles. Unfortunately the sorcerers were not able to save Egypt from losing their firstborn sons. Faith in God ultimately wins out. That's why I put my trust in the One who died and rose again.
That Jive turkey is really more of an amateur anthropologist than some hardcore pagan apologist. I seriously doubt the guy seriously takes any of that Germanic pagan mythology at face value. People of STJ’s ideological disposition like to flirt with paganism more for aesthetic (often political) reasons than for genuine spiritual fulfillment.
@@thebrocialist8300 I don't think that's fair to StJ at all. He seems quite sincere. Granted, he's not an "apologist" -- that's for people of the Abrahamic religions, mostly.
Historically speaking, it's incredible that the Church survived. Where is the continuity of Pagan tradition? Did animism perish when we settled to cultivate the land and use hitherto sacred animals as machines to gather surplus food and civilization? Indeed Christianity is a civilized tradition. It does seem to permeate Western Civilization after Christ. (Christ was not a Christian.) I love goats, and I must say that I enjoy all the stories where Thor brings goats back to live with his hammer (only goats.)
Rome was extremely civilized and pagan. India is extremely civiled and pagan. Christianity isn't civilized. It only deconstructs and leverages the spirit of a people to build. If it wasnt for the pagan soul of the Germans you wouldnt have the west.
weaponized language? "For we wrestle not with flesh and blood but against principalities and powers against the rulers of the darkness of this world against spiritual wickedness in high places wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day having done all to stand...." sharpest sword i've seen yet!
What I don't get is how these Astaru guys who particulary worship Oðinn, is how do they get around the human sacrifice. Oðinn specifically called for human sacrifice. He also mentions Continental Germanic Paganism which was probably different from Norse Paganism, with some syncretic similarities like how Greek and Roman Paganism were the same but not really. Also he appeals to scholars, but he dosen't mention or dosen't know, scholars also agree that Odin probably was a later development by the time of the Viking age. Same with Valhalla emerging as a reaction to the Christian heaven. The earlist referance to Odin is around the migration era. Also he uses the Indo-European defence, the Hypothetical Indo-European Religion is not the same as the Faiths that evolved from it. People use the Indo-European defence usually try to lump Christianity into it as a syncretic relgion that borrowed(or stole depending the how disingenuous the person wants to be) fromt he others. He mentions Tacitus, but when Tacitus wrote Germania there's wasn't an Odin, or Thor, or Freyja. Just Interpretatio Romana which most scholara still debate or admit they don't know what he ment. Also he wrote it as a biased source critiquing Roman society and painting the Germanics as the "nobel savage". Also how does he feel about all the clown world degenerates as he calls them, that pratice Asatru. And final note that gentleman was not trolling it is in the Sagas that Oðinn drank semen. Rant over lol
this is the umpteenth neo-pagan revival; 60s/70s there was one; late Victorian poetry and literature; Victorian spiritualism, 1920's art deco and avante garde society. It would be interesting, to me at least, to survey the Boglord and co as to how their current revival differs and how modern social conditions play into that...and way to contend for the Faith
Paganism has always existed. It never died. It's documented that people in Scandinavia and Britiain practised paganism and sacrificed to the gods in the 15-16-17-1800s. Paganism never fully died out.
Well, that was interesting. I can Emphasize with Dave, growing up in Liberal Catholicism, or Protestant background. And it's pretty evident once you visit an Orthodox church and return to a protestant church and it's quite evident that. There's no real spirituality going on there. I really didn't hear any real compelling arguments from, Dave as to why paganism is True, Nor why i should convert seeing as he's a perennialist. Denying of Logical Fallacies was when it ended. How could you make such a mistake in a debate, you opted yourself into a debate which entails that certain guidelines should be followed. Otherwise the opposition could just use the same tactics and get away with it. Really hope Dave checks out your content Jay. But like With styx i think he's spiritually hurting, and i was thinking back to your discussion with Styx. Where there's a point in that discussion where he says to the effect of *Could God Heal a person missing an arm, can a miracle occur basically?* The response being yes. And styx responds*Well that would make a lot of people believe in God*. Which really shows where a lot of these people are spiritually stuck in Naturalism/Materialism. And are hurting for real spirituality. And also certain pagan groups who are more concerned with their ideologies. White nationalism as an example where spirituality is secondary, and that' s if there really is any.
I don't think he's trying to convert anyone. Also this guy is clearly looking for something transcendental, it's a little unfair to compare him to Styx. Styx is just someone who's fully embraced liberalism as world view and tries to cloak it in some thin veil of spiritualism, which means drug-induced visions to him. This guy is looking for the Good. Styx is just an agent of chaos.
Whenever I hear pagans recount the sort of silly shit that comprises their mythological canon, I find it hard to convince myself that any of them faithfully buy into any of it. Perhaps all the effort they put into memorizing the old Norse/Insular Celtic pantheons, histories, folktales, rituals, prayers, etc. [most of which were just made up in the past half century] helps to ease their embarrassment over the fact that they are adult men LARPing as Scandinavian pirates, Druids, pre-Migration Era Germanic tribesmen, wizards, etc.
Pagans dont literally believe in the myths. Christians literally believe in everything in the bible (at least the parts they choose). Perhaps do some effort in researching religions.
I find it really cringry when an American that probably grew up in the mid-west tries to claim some ancient Germanic people as "his tribe". dude you're like 1500 years removed, American, whos grandpa is born from an Irish and Polish immigrants
Well this plane didn’t even leave the tarmac. This poor guy couldn’t understand the concept of absolutes, let alone understand Guenon. These people are cartoons. You exercised absolute patience on this one, Jay.
Aside from the fallacy of appeal to consensus (which for the sake of making a sound philosophical argument is technically valid), it may be true that all of these pagan gods and beliefs do indeed have a common cultural source. But I think the deeper question is what Jay brought up from the beginning: "How do you know that those 'gods'/belief in them are/is good?" How do we know if that common source was not polluted, false, or even conjured up through evil deception (demons or evil spirits decieving).
That argument applies equally to Christianity, and was made by the Gnostics. The OT God was clearly an angry, bitter, and wrathful God. Not the sort of thing anyone would call Good
@@crushinnihilism A. We are short-sighted when we judge God, His intentions, judgements and motivations by our own limited human morality. B. The OT, without strict interpretation, is not as plain in it's context as the NT, which reads more like a first-hand historical document, and therefore the narratives on the nature of God should not be compared the same way. C. It is a basic human flaw to see the travesties of this mortal life as being the standard for evil, when that standard pales in comparison to the spiritual/eternal reality. To say that God is mean for killing a person, when it may be saving his/her own soul or the souls of others is a false comparison. D. Given the evidence from the Early Church, it is more likely that Gnosticism, in the classical sense, definitely has its roots IN PAGANISM apart from "True Christianity" and the Old Covenant, as several of Jay Dyer's episodes would indicate. Therefore I would trust the accounts of the "Early Fathers" more than I would that of the Gnostic influence. E. Lastly, and I think most importantly, if we are "really" concerned about getting to the truth and heart of the matter as to what is the true Christian way, we will trace the most relevant and accurate sources, in my opinion, and that is the Apostolic Fathers; Early Church Fathers; The Early Councils; and testimonies of the Saints instead of relying on our own piecemeal, distorted, and assumptive speculation. "I rather have several witnesses at the actual scene of the crime than Armchair Columbo trying to solve the crime 1000 + years later (I include myself in that).
@@johncassles7481 you don't need context for the OT. Its plain as day. The God of the OT is evil. No questions asked. We're not misguided. He's a petty Jewish God. if we want to get to the truth of Christianity then we need to go further back than the Church fathers. All of Christianity is a Frankenstein of hellenisttic pagan philosophy. The structure is platonic. The ethics are Aristotlian. Gnosticism seems far more Christian than pagan. Theres NOTHING in Gnosticism that bares its resemblance with any pagan philosophy.
@@crushinnihilismIf the OT God decides what is good and creates the universe then we have no moral justification to judge his actions as it’s illogical to do so. All morality is grounded in the God of the OT so therefore without using His source of morality we have no morality to judge Him with.
Jesus was a worthless nobody from an inferior culture that accomplished nothing of note. What is good is greed and selfishness. People should do whatever is in their best interest. If it is in their best interest, it is good. I am better than your worthless inferior god.
@@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960 Did they or the authority of the church and the myth they told about that worthless nobody. None of my ancestors never meet the dead man and never bowed to him, only idols and paintings of germanic men.
Excellent debate. I rarely see such clear examples of fallacies, one after another. Genetic fallacy, tu quoque, begging questions and he just keeps going, I'm impressed
We cannot all be entirely correct because we contradict each other. However Christian Orthodoxy, Judaism and even Hinduism and Neoplatonism can easily account for the universal truth of logic, math and the role of math in laws of nature: We all believe in divine mind logos nous or consciousness. Does Odinism have this? I enjoy the mythology as fiction but if there is a Nordic or Germanic tradition on this I'm missing it.
@Volkstum but ancestral truth changes on the group of people and so there is no universal truth. A Germanic Pagan and a Chinese Animest do not share the same ancestral truth.
Could it be that relying on a council of bishops to work through theological questions & implement/solidly/clarify church teachings & adhering to those things is a fallacy of consensus?
A lot of Orthodox Churches have inquirer's classes. They can be very helpful. Attending Orthodox Church services is going to be the best thing for you. I didn't believe anything for many years, but Orthodoxy is different. You will see. :)
@@dgphi I'm someone who has been materialist atheist their whole life because of being convinced it was logically 'obvious', so I naturally rejected any sort of spirituality and it's only in the last year or so that I've come to understand the importance of spirituality on an individual and collective level so I've been trying to foster it, but it's been extremely difficult because there's something that seems to be holding me back from actually 'believing' in a God or the messiah etc. But I want to make that leap, I do reject materialism now thanks to Jay, but I don't know what to do now basically.
What’s the best way for a demon in this environment to damn a soul? Show him signs and get him to live a basically human life to convince him that he’s “good enough” and “not like the others”
Today I read Euthyphro for the first time and I got to say it was very frustrating that he could not understand your question on how he know something to be good or bad. It is good because it is good is what I was hearing from him.
If shapeshifters exist in paganism, how am I to believe the pagan norse gods are not the exact same pagan gods as the pagan australian aboriginal gods?
This is like an mma fight; one comes from an orthodox style like grounded in Jiu jitsu or muay Thai whereas this pagan, who thinks because he also has two fists that they're on the same playing field, the only thing that separates the pagan from the atheist is the pagan is clothed in a gi and claims to have rank. We're both wearing a gi and have rank is what the pagan says. The pagan sounds like when kung fu dudes show up at our school, the atheist always sounds like the "street fighter" who thinks fights are back and for the like pro wrestling or took some tae kwon do as a kid and declare themselves well versed or well rounded as an adult.
To be fair though, this guy is not espousing a Germanic metaphysical position, he's a Platonist, and Christians are simply superior Platonists who don't believe they can become one with God's essence (thus they can't become god).
If your race/dna is the gateway into the spiritual realm then do you have to get a DNA test before you join? At what percentage of German blood do I need to see Odin? I'm part Irish will I suddenly start to see Leprechauns 😅?
@Volkstum we don't repent only to avoid hell. Everything else you have said is even sillier. Would you like to discuss spiritual reality or just assume you know everything?
@Volkstum your whole view of what Christians believe is skewed by something you have gone through in the past. If you are sincerely seeking the Truth He will find you. God Bless you on this Holy Day my friend
This guy is completely unlearned and all over the place. Definitely doesn't have a firm grip on the nature of what he considers paganism and how it lines up with the nature of reality. Very chaotic and elementary style of argumentation from him.
I was an Odinist/Asatru for about 12 years and was on page with this Asatru guy until I got a visitation from God of the Bible , the face of the Jewish messiah had manifested to me in a way more🔥real then a vision, which set me on a course of searching for truth in the Bible. I prayed for answers about what the spiritual experiences were that I had as an Odinist practitioner, and God sent me a dream, leading me to the book of Jude, that lead me to the book of Enoch, which described what and who all these "Gods" really are. Fallen Angels that taught humans Magic and Warfare. I did parallel research and Ragnarok ends in Fire and the Gods dying. Same as Revelations except God sends the fire to burn up the fallen Angels
How were you an Odinist for 12 years but only found out Surtr destroys the Aesir after all that time? Also no, not all the gods die in Ragnarok. 2 of them survive and the cycle begins again.
Great back and forth discussion. Can't help but feeling like Dave is playing a character more than anything. Jay does a good job of illustrating where the epistomology of paganism falls short here. The whole "science and appeal to consensus" deal left me baffled though.
Have you ever thought of debating Black Hebrew Israelites? I heard you make the point that a reasonable case can be made for upper class Egyptians being Aryan.
Regardless of one's specific faith, the arguments between Theists are interesting, however, we have a greater enemy: metaphysical materialists/atheists.
Debate tactics are tricks I took debate in school and the first thing you learn is you don't have to hold the correct position to win a debate. We had to argue false positions all the time and if your good enough you win
Jay, you should consider having a debate with Mark Puryear from the Norroena Society. If you want to have a debate about philosophy, you'll find that he may be more prepared to discuss Germanic polytheism in this regard. Reading your comment section there are a lot of misconceptions about Germanic polytheism and the lore. I think it could be a good debate.
@@blehblehk5955 in fact even Baldur and his mother Freya were added as an allegory to Christ and Mary... it's why I know Pagans are just LARPing, trying to latch onto some kind of spiritual connection but their own beliefs are rife with Christian symbolism and themes due to the Edda being written down by a Christian.
I feel what Jay is asking for from Dave here is for proof that Germanic Paganism is coherent through an organized and systematized theology, and the reality is that paganism simply lacks that, and this may very well be a flaw in the religion. Dave sort of scratches at the solution to this problem when he talks about using the Vedas and Avestan scripture for reference in reconstructing the theology, but there's a lot within those religions that needs to be learned before approaching the task of incorporating philosophical concepts from those religions into Germanic Paganism, and most pagans simply don't have that background knowledge. That does in fact need to change. Pagans do need a coherent, cohesive theology before they can tackle these debates, because Traditional Christianity has a wealth of solid philosophy and theology, and for paganism to try to debate it is a pretty one-sided fight. Paganism is severely lacking in those department, but that can be remedied by tapping into other Indo-European theology by learned scholars. So it's going to be a work in progress. That being said, the framework is still there, and much of Jay's requests for a concrete basis for pagan moral philosophy can be found in the Hindu concept of dharma, it just needs organized theological application to paganism by scholars.
@Volkstum I think thia debate kinda proves precisely that paganism needs a better theological framework. There may be contradictions within the behavior of historical Christianity, but that doesn't mean the religion itself is incoherent, because clearly the Early Church Fathers put a great deal of effort into making sure it was internally consistent, which is the whole basis of Jay's arguments. Too many pagans aren't scholarly, which is understandable given the status paganism is in in the modern world, but if we want to be taken seriously, we need to build up thr intellectual, philosophical backbone of the faith if we want it to be viable. Much of the hard work has already been done for us too, in that Hinduism has a wealth of philosophical examinations that can be applied to Germanic Paganism if one was only to take the time to do so.
@@Maximooch Depends on what specifically you're interested in. Liturgy, cosmology, ethics, epistemology, eschatology, etc. It's kind of a complex topic. Off the top of my head, I would say that a foundational aspect of all Indo-European religions is the idea of cyclical time, reincarnation, and social and religious hierarchy.
@@Loddfafnisodr How? Level an actual inconsistency and we can work with that. Obviously I'm not a Christian so I won't be able to as effectively run apologetics for that worldview, but I have a decent enough familiarity with it to evaluate if it's a decent charge of inconsistency.
At this time it is a little hard to do because christian persecution destroyed some much of native belief systems, not just in Europe but where ever Christianity goes there is cultural destruction.
its a shame that you couldn't find a better opponent that has experience in authentic logical rules and debate as well as a genuine knowledge of the Codex Regius.
Wouldn’t I have more of a basis to worship Batman? I can guarantee there’s more literature about Batman than any of these pagan Gods at this point. Is the difference between Odin and Batman that one was worshipped a really long time ago and that’s what makes it true?
Be sure to like, subscribe and share if you enjoyed! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
good stuff Jay..keep the vids coming
Christianity has the same kinds of problems and the resurrection of Jesus has to be taken on faith. Also Jesus failed to accomplish anything in his life time, so it is pushed off to a second coming that failed to manifest. In short, Jesus was a worthless nobody from an inferior culture that accomplished nothing of note. The Israelites were worthless inferior culture that accomplished nothing of note. The Canaanites were superior. One Canaanite branch built a great empire, that being the Carthaginians. The Israelites benefitted from being colonized by the superior cultures around them. Judea benefitted alot from being colonized by the superior Greek and Roman cultures, i.e. Indo-European cultures. Colonization tends to benefit those being colonized. Jews did not become successful until they were Indo-Europeanized. Cultures are not equal. Some cultures are just better than others. It is obvious that people are not equal. Some people are just better than others. People are not equally intelligent. People are not equally beautiful. People are not equally skilled. Many people are poor because of a misallocation of scarce resources. What is good is greed and selfishness.
Paganism is a nature religion, although there was also an understanding that there was a Great Spirit over it all. Christianity is about consciousness: Christ Consciousness which means being aware not only in the body and environment but in the whole universe. It may be that is the psychic evolution that we will all experience as we evolve in consciousness as well as mentally it will be similar. Being Pagan is going back, not forward. Now Consciousness is ‘the hard problem’ for philosophers. In the East Consciousness and God are one and the same. People are mostly clueless about religion; the definition of which is ‘that to which we are bound.’ I would go with Christianity although now that we are long past the Dark Age it should include nature and the feminine more as Christ himself did. Our time is not just about nature or consciousness but both. ‘Spirit and Nature dancing together, victory to Spirit and victory to Nature”. Not either/ or but both.
lmao the wiki link, nice touch there. Just because lots of people think it doesn't make it true! The theme.
Jay has a cleaner room than Jordan Peterson
It is not his room
@@ourspolaire2050 Yes It is
Dyerwave your room
Jay cleans Peterson's room
Thank you Ronnie :D
As an Orthodox Christian, I was genuinely interested and excited to hear this debate but when it went from Orthodoxy vs Paganism to Orthodoxy vs magic butt sex, I've never laughed so hard.
Dave Martel is just a loud mouth talking head , he gets views , he's not a good representation of an actual practicing "pagan"
How in the hell can someone participating in a formal debate say with a straight face that they don't accept logical fallacies as a concept? When this debate started i had hopes this guy would be a formidable opponent for you Jay but was quickly disappointed. Another massacre. 🍻
I’ve never seen someone nuke themselves in a debate like that.
So called "logical fallacies" are made up by dumb people, that misuse the authority of logic. Those so called "fallacies" are often not fallacies by definition. There are formal logical fallacies and everyone respects those, but logical fallacies are just a part of "critical thinking" propaganda courses
This is the same as every debate with an atheist. Its them making moral claims without understanding that they have no basis for them, and you telling them that their position is contradictory.
car simeon?
@samuel alíren That's the point. Pagans argue like atheists and in many ways seem like spiritual atheists larping as theists.
Thats bc paganism is just atheism lite
@@ineternitypast okay but Christians have the same arguments towards Pagans all the time.....
@@ineternitypastpolytheism is atheism lite? What a retrded take
Do you have any interest in arranging a debate with Survive the Jive? He seems a little bit more knowledgeable on Paganism than this guy, with all due respect.
David Davidson ok
Remember seeing a comment about this on STJ's channel where he responded that he wouldn't debate Jay because he's not that into debates. Also he said he saw the last debate Jay done with a perennialist and said "he is only interested in arguing from within the framework of assumptions of an Orthodox christian". Maybe if enough people show interest in it and they can both find a debate structure they agree upon they would do it. Definitely has the potential for a good debate.
@@raenoldparkin STJ is well versed in all of the above
@@raenoldparkin Survive the Jive is knowledgeable on Guenon and has made several videos on him. STJ is also in no way a neo-Theosophist or aryanist.
I know about Survive the Jive being pagan since he got married in a Christian Church and allegedly honeymooned in a Muslim country, but before Survive the Jive debates Jay Dyer, shouldn’t he debate Marie Cachet (the wife of ThuleanPerspective) first?
She challenged Survive the Jive to a debate, yet all he does is call her a placenta worshiper.
I’m so used to seeing Jay aggressively tear down his opponents in a debate, that this video took me by surprise.
Jay was genuinely trying to have a conversation here.
Many years to you, Jay-may you continue to glorify God!!!
This guy Martel actually had a pretty good strategy...
Attempt to overwhelm Jay with endless waves of cringe.
Jay gets a Nobel prize for keeping a straight face.
Obviously Boglord lost, but kudos to him for being interesting at and brave enough to show up for debate
I'm a Eastern Orthodox catechumen and I am so grateful I've found your channel Jay! What a fantastic defender of the faith.
I must admit I admired Jay's honesty when he said "yes, his intention is to pick apart Dave's views". I laughed heartily. I enjoyed this gentlemen lol
2:54 While I admire a pagan debating a Christian on basically anything. That "I'm not like most Pagans" statement was an immediate red flag. All pagans are autistic, I speak as a former pagan myself. But again I can admit when a man has some amount of virtue and I pray Dave does the best Pagan tradition: Convert to Christianity.
"I'm not like other girls."
Do you even spiritual, bro?
As an Icelander who is well-versed in the Eddas, there is no metaphysics in these stories. Christian priests wrote local folktales a thousand years ago when the Church brought us the Latin alphabet. These are magical myths, and if anyone thinks they can create a complete metaphysical system from Gylfaginning and Völuspá(the Mythic parts of the Eddas), then one should also be able to make one from the Grimm's adventures. Even though I am Christian, I highly treasure this cultural heritage as a form of aesthetic. I am tired of rootless Americans appropriating these folktales just because they got 3% Swede in a DNA test.
Great Response.
It's their reaction of finding meaning after leaving their American Evangelicalism/New Atheism.
I share your sentiment towards my "culturally-enriched" countrymen. Everyone I know seems to be either a Viking or indigenous native now.
But you gotta understand (and probably do) that our rootlessness is the end result of generations of applied psyops. Our current cultural identity is recycled children's entertainment from the 80's. Cut us some slack lol.
Fjölnir, borther... of course there's metaphysics in those myths. Creating a complete metaphysical system based on those fragments of the tradition is another thing, but surely it was a more complete whole than we can see in retrospect. It seems to me that men like Snorri at least respected the tradition. I know that you said you treasure the cultural heritage so forgive me if I read too much into your comment.
Well,. this is confusing because the Eddas contain history as well. They speak of the first contact between the Norse and the Skraelings. I wonder how these historical accounts fit into this pagan dude's Theological framework 🤔.
The majority of my fellow Americans are profoundly clueless about History.
Seems like a decent guy, but his worldview is incoherent.
Dave took that beating like a true Viking. Good on him for being such a good sport!
Just finished Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, halfway through The Soul After Death. Got prelest and it's relationship to modern "spirituality" on the mind. Made this debate take on a whole new color.
@@kieran296 Nihilism was great. Diving into Genesis, Creation and Early Man after this.
Haha at first I read this as of your saying “got Prelest….” Meant you acquired Prelest from reading Fr. Seraphim Rose. Which is totally plausible haha. Great stuff.
@@SkullOfTheAbyss LOL that's how I read it too
@@Lupen69 me 3! 2024 yo!
You know I would like to drink some beers with this Pagan. Even though he is a heretic, I think he ultimately wants what God has given us and called good and is just responding to the degeneracy in this world from the disgusting areas of society today. Obviously as an Orthodox Christian, I think he is woefully misled and I will pray for him and others like him in his neoPagan movement to become Orthodox. Although I do think he was illogical, he was very spirited and at least likable, unlike some of the other people you've debated in the past. He reminds me of some people I know and genuinely like.
@Radagast can't disagree with that.
I mean, we really should adopt the Islamic doctrine of "convert or die". This is why we have nonchristians
@@crqf2010ruler OR, and hear me out, we can actually be good Christians and follow God’s will.
@@coltonthedrummer crazy lol
@Radagast justify that? It was turning away from Christianity which started this degeneracy.
“Yogi sitting out there in their shit”
😂🤣😭
lmao
"thats appeal to consensus, a fallacy" "thats how science works!" well, he said it.
😂😂
SCIENCE!!!
1) no it fkn isn't
2) If we take science seriously then theres no reason to think God exists.
@@crushinnihilism
What a funny lie.
@@OmegaShadeslayer What a funny non-argument
It has always confounded me that people based their deepest beliefs on subjective experience.
Prelest is easy to fall victim to when ones entire theological perspective is based off of indoctrination that is itself both deluded and continually self-deluding. In the face of something so damningly incorrect that has suckled you from birth, and having never been shown the truth of orthodoxy or that it even exists, it’s sometimes difficult to find a solid external foundation, which leads to the belief of “I must be the only one who can tell me the truth”. Not an excuse, but hopefully it confounds you no longer.
Huh? Orthodox Christianity literally sees subjective experience as legitimate.
The fact that Jay and Boglord overlap on ethics (not the rest) made this debate decent and rather pleasant.
Wow. Pagan dude really thinks consensus proves his point? He was 1/4th convincing up until that point.
@dank bean Not even sure how to respond. Consensus? So the world got together and voted on religion and concluded Christianity? It's the opposite. It was brought on primarily by one man's teachings and being raised from the dead.
Large amount of consensus DOES make a thing more likely
This started out pretty interesting, but then it was debate over the second logical fallacies came up. Did he really just argue 2+2=4 because everyone agrees 2+2=4?
Jay, you might want to consider giving your guests a quick math+philosophy 101 course before you start these debates, just out of mercy cause I feel bad for the poor education these people have received.
Most of Jay's debates end up not really being debates. Instead, they usually just end up being Jay lecturing the other person on things that they are ignorant of.
@@whitemakesright2177 yeamoving the goal post is a good way to never be wrong 😉
@@marlenathorvald spotted the person who doesn't believe in justifying claims
No. Jay misunderstood him. It actually wasn’t an appeal to consensus. He was saying that the fact that all of us arrive at 2+2=4 points to a universal law that works no matter who you are. He was saying that if unrelated cultures all come to a similar set of truths, that is evidence that those truths are universal
@@OriginsofEternity yeah this seems to have been the crux of the issue, and the point where the whole conversation just kind of fell apart which is a shame. I think Dave knows more than he's able to articulate properly which evidently leads to an argument that just goes on and on.
His 'objective' goods are borrowed from the Christian God.. lol
Like?
Please explain, “lol”.
The christan god came about way after our gods your truths and what is good is borrowed from us hate to break it to you.
@@marlenathorvald I wish you the best of luck in trying to prove that the old testament (or the new one, for that matter) borrowed anything from 'your older gods', whom even your illiterate 9th century ancestors gave up on. But to save you the time and effort, even an atheist scholar would point out that the roots of Christianity are in Judaism whose beginning span from 2000BC to 1000BC, depending on how historically accurate one considers the Bible - whereas the Norse religion is dated at around 500BC.
@@vostok2717 you are right christians don't borrow pagan traditions in the most obvious of ways in all the holidays they celebrate. Not to mention all religions have parallels in what is good. just the fact that you are such an asshole about your religion tells me you are insecure about it. My faith goes back way farther then yours I'm not your teacher and youre an asshole so go look it up yourself. Bottom line is my religions goes all the way back to the beginning so what if people lost faith for a while. Yours goes back to the jews so why not be Jewish?
Dave seems like a cool dude to have a beer with... but he just couldn't grasp the consensus fallacy. The debate was another massacre of Verden.
Verdun.
Charlemagne did nothing wrong
@@whitemakesright2177 what about the whole filioque thing lmao
@@firenuckle98 He did nothing wrong.
@@definitelynotatroll285 papists am NOT allow
Interesting topic but it's hard to follow a debate of Christianity vs paganism when atheism is constantly being referred to.
Yeah it was all over the map a bit a lot was covered
I'd argue that most modern Western pagans are in fact atheistic naturalists who view the pagan gods more as _Jungian archetypes_ and utilize them as psychological props to support their preferred worldview, rather than believe in them as real, independent spiritual entities. A lot of it is just playing pretend.
These guys were speaking a totally different language. Mr. Martel seems like a reasonable guy, but he simply was not able to argue at the same wavelength that Dyer was. It was difficult to watch for the sake of my empathy towards the opponent that was Dave.
Good conversation. One guy has a solid framework, and one guy throws out fancy words 😂
Jay was very patient in this debate and handled it with a degree of pedagogical care.
Unfortunately, this man was not prepared to clearly define nor defend his positions.
This is a great example to anyone who watches to be willing to learn about the basic of philosophy and argumentation.
Great job Jay!
Exactly. Whatever you think of boglord the discussion was civilised and showed the level of unreadyness one should strive not to have during a debate.
Fruitful discussion.
@@TrollDemN00bs 'Fruitful'? Kinda fruity of you to nitpick that.
I liked You and Jays discussion to
Suspect sir …suspect
That ending... Dear pagan gods, work on your PR department.
There is never going to be a definitive spokesperson for Paganism™ because no such unified religion exists. Heathenry, Paganism, etc., just like the term “Germanic” itself, are merely umbrella terms which get arbitrarily applied to disparate groups which happen to share perceived commonalities.
@@amblinghearth9857 lol the viking cosplay population is shattered all over the west because their heritage can be found in scandinavia, parts of germany, russia, even parts of Northern France and the british isles. These people have a long history but their heritage was slowly destroyed by long and slow assimilation long ago, thus the of lack texts to actually support their beliefs.
Some people are not made for debating, no matter how cool they think they look talking about complicated things.
the thing that struck me the most is that he started to kinda bitch about Jay refuting every one of his points accusing him of "tearing him up apart" or that "this is a production". Like breh maybe you just don't really make any sense, don't be part of a debate if you don't want to hear other points of views lol
Its hard to listen to Jay destroy people. I am too empathetic and feel bad for the opponent. I am genuinely shocked I bought into paganism/Hinduism for so long.
lol Jay can be a stone faced killer sometimes. This isn't one of these times.
Do a debate or an episode with Mike Winger. Maybe on Charismaticism and Pentecostalism? Would be very intriguing I guess. The dude is rather scholarly and sees a lot of negative tendencies for what they are. Two Bible nerds going after each other would be something very original outside the boundaries of protestantism
Yes, I’d love to see this.
Mike winger? All the scholars that have seen him say he's a heretic. It would be entertaining
Nice to stumble upon this old stream, I'm a fan of both guys.
Dave shows that pragmatism is a poor standard for discerning a valid choice in terms of religious faith. When God showed his power when Moses called out Pharoah, Pharaoh's sorcerers were able to perform many of the same miracles. Unfortunately the sorcerers were not able to save Egypt from losing their firstborn sons. Faith in God ultimately wins out. That's why I put my trust in the One who died and rose again.
jay is a soldier, even when the march is in the rain and only going around the block
hahaha well said Brother
You should have a debate with survive the jive.
survive the jive is great guy but he never does debates. I can't remember if there was even one.
That Jive turkey is really more of an amateur anthropologist than some hardcore pagan apologist. I seriously doubt the guy seriously takes any of that Germanic pagan mythology at face value. People of STJ’s ideological disposition like to flirt with paganism more for aesthetic (often political) reasons than for genuine spiritual fulfillment.
@@thebrocialist8300 I don't think that's fair to StJ at all. He seems quite sincere. Granted, he's not an "apologist" -- that's for people of the Abrahamic religions, mostly.
Truly an evergreen debate. Totally hilarious, while also deconstructing a worldview that is somehow making a resurgence.
Historically speaking, it's incredible that the Church survived. Where is the continuity of Pagan tradition? Did animism perish when we settled to cultivate the land and use hitherto sacred animals as machines to gather surplus food and civilization? Indeed Christianity is a civilized tradition. It does seem to permeate Western Civilization after Christ. (Christ was not a Christian.) I love goats, and I must say that I enjoy all the stories where Thor brings goats back to live with his hammer (only goats.)
Rome was extremely civilized and pagan. India is extremely civiled and pagan.
Christianity isn't civilized. It only deconstructs and leverages the spirit of a people to build.
If it wasnt for the pagan soul of the Germans you wouldnt have the west.
@@crushinnihilism
(((I N D I A )))
E. Michael Jones. Who's in, HIT THE LIKE! E. Michael Jones feat. Jay Dyer - LET'S MAKE THIS HAPPEN!
Aleksandar Trninic he already declined a debate
@@sylvaindurand1817 he's also not what you think he is.
@@sylvaindurand1817
I guess he shan't enlighten you. Which is frustrating, 'cause he got me curious as well.
weaponized language? "For we wrestle not with flesh and blood but against principalities and powers against the rulers of the darkness of this world against spiritual wickedness in high places wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day having done all to stand...." sharpest sword i've seen yet!
What I don't get is how these Astaru guys who particulary worship Oðinn, is how do they get around the human sacrifice. Oðinn specifically called for human sacrifice. He also mentions Continental Germanic Paganism which was probably different from Norse Paganism, with some syncretic similarities like how Greek and Roman Paganism were the same but not really. Also he appeals to scholars, but he dosen't mention or dosen't know, scholars also agree that Odin probably was a later development by the time of the Viking age. Same with Valhalla emerging as a reaction to the Christian heaven. The earlist referance to Odin is around the migration era. Also he uses the Indo-European defence, the Hypothetical Indo-European Religion is not the same as the Faiths that evolved from it. People use the Indo-European defence usually try to lump Christianity into it as a syncretic relgion that borrowed(or stole depending the how disingenuous the person wants to be) fromt he others. He mentions Tacitus, but when Tacitus wrote Germania there's wasn't an Odin, or Thor, or Freyja. Just Interpretatio Romana which most scholara still debate or admit they don't know what he ment. Also he wrote it as a biased source critiquing Roman society and painting the Germanics as the "nobel savage". Also how does he feel about all the clown world degenerates as he calls them, that pratice Asatru. And final note that gentleman was not trolling it is in the Sagas that Oðinn drank semen.
Rant over lol
The entire ancient norse pagan heritage seems to always have been heavily linked to contact with negative entities or demons through rituals.
I just dusted off this old gem cause I needed to cringe one time
Dave's performance at the end points to why he was so sure Jay was putting on an act.
this is the umpteenth neo-pagan revival; 60s/70s there was one; late Victorian poetry and literature; Victorian spiritualism, 1920's art deco and avante garde society. It would be interesting, to me at least, to survey the Boglord and co as to how their current revival differs and how modern social conditions play into that...and way to contend for the Faith
Paganism has always existed. It never died. It's documented that people in Scandinavia and Britiain practised paganism and sacrificed to the gods in the 15-16-17-1800s. Paganism never fully died out.
So what do you call the branching off of all these different sects of the Hebrew God from the "first Christians" to now?
Well, that was interesting. I can Emphasize with Dave, growing up in Liberal Catholicism, or Protestant background. And it's pretty evident once you visit an Orthodox church and return to a protestant church and it's quite evident that. There's no real spirituality going on there. I really didn't hear any real compelling arguments from, Dave as to why paganism is True, Nor why i should convert seeing as he's a perennialist. Denying of Logical Fallacies was when it ended. How could you make such a mistake in a debate, you opted yourself into a debate which entails that certain guidelines should be followed. Otherwise the opposition could just use the same tactics and get away with it. Really hope Dave checks out your content Jay. But like With styx i think he's spiritually hurting, and i was thinking back to your discussion with Styx. Where there's a point in that discussion where he says to the effect of *Could God Heal a person missing an arm, can a miracle occur basically?* The response being yes. And styx responds*Well that would make a lot of people believe in God*. Which really shows where a lot of these people are spiritually stuck in Naturalism/Materialism. And are hurting for real spirituality. And also certain pagan groups who are more concerned with their ideologies. White nationalism as an example where spirituality is secondary, and that' s if there really is any.
I don't think he's trying to convert anyone. Also this guy is clearly looking for something transcendental, it's a little unfair to compare him to Styx. Styx is just someone who's fully embraced liberalism as world view and tries to cloak it in some thin veil of spiritualism, which means drug-induced visions to him. This guy is looking for the Good. Styx is just an agent of chaos.
Whenever I hear pagans recount the sort of silly shit that comprises their mythological canon, I find it hard to convince myself that any of them faithfully buy into any of it.
Perhaps all the effort they put into memorizing the old Norse/Insular Celtic pantheons, histories, folktales, rituals, prayers, etc. [most of which were just made up in the past half century] helps to ease their embarrassment over the fact that they are adult men LARPing as Scandinavian pirates, Druids, pre-Migration Era Germanic tribesmen, wizards, etc.
😹
Christians are even worse. Genocide other faith and role play as good people.
Pagans dont literally believe in the myths. Christians literally believe in everything in the bible (at least the parts they choose). Perhaps do some effort in researching religions.
@crushinnihilism
So they kicked the shit out of the others.
I just had this chat. They claim logic but can’t apply it correctly.
I find it really cringry when an American that probably grew up in the mid-west tries to claim some ancient Germanic people as "his tribe". dude you're like 1500 years removed, American, whos grandpa is born from an Irish and Polish immigrants
You have lost your connection to your ancestry. Sad!
1500 years removed? A lot of immigration happened a few generations ago
@@crowfeedreactions
You have none.
@@lucascoval828That's just, like, your opinion, man.
@@crowfeedreactions
Not The Dude.
Don't bring him into this.
He died for our sins.
This dude is took his trolling too far, to a point it governs his entire belief system.
"The Viking Alex Jones".
Couldn't of said it any better.
Great debate. # JayDyerUniversity.
“The results” of paganism are its total moral futility and, since the messiah, inability to work magic among the nations.
This guy: You and I are basically the same!
Jay: No lol.
We was vikangz!
We be da real joos
we wuz swingin axes n sheit haha
Well this plane didn’t even leave the tarmac. This poor guy couldn’t understand the concept of absolutes, let alone understand Guenon. These people are cartoons. You exercised absolute patience on this one, Jay.
Aside from the fallacy of appeal to consensus (which for the sake of making a sound philosophical argument is technically valid), it may be true that all of these pagan gods and beliefs do indeed have a common cultural source.
But I think the deeper question is what Jay brought up from the beginning: "How do you know that those 'gods'/belief in them are/is good?"
How do we know if that common source was not polluted, false, or even conjured up through evil deception (demons or evil spirits decieving).
That argument applies equally to Christianity, and was made by the Gnostics.
The OT God was clearly an angry, bitter, and wrathful God.
Not the sort of thing anyone would call Good
@@crushinnihilism
A. We are short-sighted when we judge God, His intentions, judgements and motivations by our own limited human morality.
B. The OT, without strict interpretation, is not as plain in it's context as the NT, which reads more like a first-hand historical document, and therefore the narratives on the nature of God should not be compared the same way.
C. It is a basic human flaw to see the travesties of this mortal life as being the standard for evil, when that standard pales in comparison to the spiritual/eternal reality. To say that God is mean for killing a person, when it may be saving his/her own soul or the souls of others is a false comparison.
D. Given the evidence from the Early Church, it is more likely that Gnosticism, in the classical sense, definitely has its roots IN PAGANISM apart from "True Christianity" and the Old Covenant, as several of Jay Dyer's episodes would indicate. Therefore I would trust the accounts of the "Early Fathers" more than I would that of the Gnostic influence.
E. Lastly, and I think most importantly, if we are "really" concerned about getting to the truth and heart of the matter as to what is the true Christian way, we will trace the most relevant and accurate sources, in my opinion, and that is the Apostolic Fathers; Early Church Fathers; The Early Councils; and testimonies of the Saints instead of relying on our own piecemeal, distorted, and assumptive speculation. "I rather have several witnesses at the actual scene of the crime than Armchair Columbo trying to solve the crime 1000 + years later (I include myself in that).
@@johncassles7481 you don't need context for the OT. Its plain as day. The God of the OT is evil. No questions asked. We're not misguided. He's a petty Jewish God.
if we want to get to the truth of Christianity then we need to go further back than the Church fathers.
All of Christianity is a Frankenstein of hellenisttic pagan philosophy. The structure is platonic. The ethics are Aristotlian.
Gnosticism seems far more Christian than pagan. Theres NOTHING in Gnosticism that bares its resemblance with any pagan philosophy.
@@crushinnihilismIf the OT God decides what is good and creates the universe then we have no moral justification to judge his actions as it’s illogical to do so. All morality is grounded in the God of the OT so therefore without using His source of morality we have no morality to judge Him with.
Jay completely exposes what a load of nonsense Paganism is...
Try to get a pagan larper to see his spiritual views are based on Christian morality: difficulty impossible.
Jesus was a worthless nobody from an inferior culture that accomplished nothing of note. What is good is greed and selfishness. People should do whatever is in their best interest. If it is in their best interest, it is good. I am better than your worthless inferior god.
@@sonsofyngveaccomplished nothing of note yet your ancestors bowed to him. Go figure.
@@awuriefnejqwjmnwn4960 Did they or the authority of the church and the myth they told about that worthless nobody. None of my ancestors never meet the dead man and never bowed to him, only idols and paintings of germanic men.
@@sonsofyngve How come the "white race" are superior to everybody else, yet are letting themselves get conquered by said inferiors ?
I am Odin. Change my mind.
What up, Odin?
😎
hi Odin im Zeus 😮⚡️
Mmm yummy human sacrifice 😋
I want to see the part 2 after the guy takes a year on a philosophy and logic class
Jay is the Mike Tyson of Orthodox Apologetics he just destroys people in debates
Science doesn’t appeal to consensus. The sun doesn’t revolve around the earth just because that position won a majority vote.
Excellent debate. I rarely see such clear examples of fallacies, one after another. Genetic fallacy, tu quoque, begging questions and he just keeps going, I'm impressed
We cannot all be entirely correct because we contradict each other. However Christian Orthodoxy, Judaism and even Hinduism and Neoplatonism can easily account for the universal truth of logic, math and the role of math in laws of nature: We all believe in divine mind logos nous or consciousness. Does Odinism have this? I enjoy the mythology as fiction but if there is a Nordic or Germanic tradition on this I'm missing it.
@Volkstum but ancestral truth changes on the group of people and so there is no universal truth. A Germanic Pagan and a Chinese Animest do not share the same ancestral truth.
He’s not an odinist lmfao
Best debate ever!!! Thank you Jay!!! Good strength!!!
Could it be that relying on a council of bishops to work through theological questions & implement/solidly/clarify church teachings & adhering to those things is a fallacy of consensus?
No, because there have been robber councils and false synods.
What matters is that the declarations of those councils match what's been taught and believed from the beginning.
@@Cobruh_Commander Thanks Caer Bannog
@@britonio2660 Glad to help, we have a Discord server if you wish to ask us more questions.
@@Cobruh_Commander what is it?
Does anyone know how to go from a lifetime of atheism and materialism to Christianity?
What would you like to know? The Book of Matthew is a good starting point.
Start praying, try to find a good church, start reading the bible (in that order)
A lot of Orthodox Churches have inquirer's classes. They can be very helpful. Attending Orthodox Church services is going to be the best thing for you. I didn't believe anything for many years, but Orthodoxy is different. You will see. :)
@@metalsnakesig
Thank you I will look into it.
@@dgphi
I'm someone who has been materialist atheist their whole life because of being convinced it was logically 'obvious', so I naturally rejected any sort of spirituality and it's only in the last year or so that I've come to understand the importance of spirituality on an individual and collective level so I've been trying to foster it, but it's been extremely difficult because there's something that seems to be holding me back from actually 'believing' in a God or the messiah etc. But I want to make that leap, I do reject materialism now thanks to Jay, but I don't know what to do now basically.
Keep flexing on these online pedestrians, uncle Jay
What’s the best way for a demon in this environment to damn a soul? Show him signs and get him to live a basically human life to convince him that he’s “good enough” and “not like the others”
"Magic butt sex"
Lmao! Jay won 🏆 🤣😂😂
Today I read Euthyphro for the first time and I got to say it was very frustrating that he could not understand your question on how he know something to be good or bad. It is good because it is good is what I was hearing from him.
You would think people would have the sense to avoid JD like the plague. He destroys every one of them.
If shapeshifters exist in paganism, how am I to believe the pagan norse gods are not the exact same pagan gods as the pagan australian aboriginal gods?
Would you do a similar debate with an Asatru Folk Assembly Gothi?
All due respect to the pagan, I am not making fun of him
But at
"-I have been elected the chieftain of my kindred-"
My spine physically cringed
He was elected a ‘chieftain’ by his Thor Funko Pop collection and 2 users in his Minecraft server.
This is like an mma fight; one comes from an orthodox style like grounded in Jiu jitsu or muay Thai whereas this pagan, who thinks because he also has two fists that they're on the same playing field, the only thing that separates the pagan from the atheist is the pagan is clothed in a gi and claims to have rank. We're both wearing a gi and have rank is what the pagan says.
The pagan sounds like when kung fu dudes show up at our school, the atheist always sounds like the "street fighter" who thinks fights are back and for the like pro wrestling or took some tae kwon do as a kid and declare themselves well versed or well rounded as an adult.
I can't imagine worshiping the little gods ( that were created by Yahweh and who are under His authority
To be fair though, this guy is not espousing a Germanic metaphysical position, he's a Platonist, and Christians are simply superior Platonists who don't believe they can become one with God's essence (thus they can't become god).
If your race/dna is the gateway into the spiritual realm then do you have to get a DNA test before you join? At what percentage of German blood do I need to see Odin? I'm part Irish will I suddenly start to see Leprechauns 😅?
@Volkstum we don't repent only to avoid hell. Everything else you have said is even sillier. Would you like to discuss spiritual reality or just assume you know everything?
@Volkstum your whole view of what Christians believe is skewed by something you have gone through in the past. If you are sincerely seeking the Truth He will find you.
God Bless you on this Holy Day my friend
If you worship a jew you don't have to worry about it.
@@natearmstrong8510 Hell was around long before christianity, they just modified to threaten people.
Not how euro paganism works
This guy is completely unlearned and all over the place. Definitely doesn't have a firm grip on the nature of what he considers paganism and how it lines up with the nature of reality. Very chaotic and elementary style of argumentation from him.
Chunky, spicy, medium, or mild, it's all salsa.
I was an Odinist/Asatru for about 12 years and was on page with this Asatru guy until I got a visitation from God of the Bible , the face of the Jewish messiah had manifested to me in a way more🔥real then a vision, which set me on a course of searching for truth in the Bible. I prayed for answers about what the spiritual experiences were that I had as an Odinist practitioner, and God sent me a dream, leading me to the book of Jude, that lead me to the book of Enoch, which described what and who all these "Gods" really are. Fallen Angels that taught humans Magic and Warfare. I did parallel research and Ragnarok ends in Fire and the Gods dying. Same as Revelations except God sends the fire to burn up the fallen Angels
How were you an Odinist for 12 years but only found out Surtr destroys the Aesir after all that time? Also no, not all the gods die in Ragnarok. 2 of them survive and the cycle begins again.
It's refreshing seeing two people with different beliefs and views can come together and discuss things in a rational way
Rejecting logical fallacies is rejecting logic itself. How is this rational?
This is about what I expected in argumentation from a pagan.
Very fuzzy thinking.
Great back and forth discussion. Can't help but feeling like Dave is playing a character more than anything. Jay does a good job of illustrating where the epistomology of paganism falls short here. The whole "science and appeal to consensus" deal left me baffled though.
Have you ever thought of debating Black Hebrew Israelites? I heard you make the point that a reasonable case can be made for upper class Egyptians being Aryan.
Jay Dyer debates some pretty low hanging fruit but dont think those people are even worth his time
How is this dude arguing that Jay is using sophistry (the use of fallacious arguments) to knock down Dave's fallacious arguments?? LOL
Regardless of one's specific faith, the arguments between Theists are interesting, however, we have a greater enemy: metaphysical materialists/atheists.
01:01:00 no you meant Plato's "Sophist" when Socrates shows up for like a "mic drop" before the book carries on without "him"
Debate tactics are tricks I took debate in school and the first thing you learn is you don't have to hold the correct position to win a debate. We had to argue false positions all the time and if your good enough you win
@@noecontreras7068 that's literally what my point was that just because you win didn't mean your right
Debate tactics ≠ Logical fallacies
Jay, you should consider having a debate with Mark Puryear from the Norroena Society. If you want to have a debate about philosophy, you'll find that he may be more prepared to discuss Germanic polytheism in this regard.
Reading your comment section there are a lot of misconceptions about Germanic polytheism and the lore. I think it could be a good debate.
Gotta drink every time Jay says "butt sex".
you had that fellow sputtering you certainly did bravo brother d
Ragnarok is was added by a Christian in order to incorporate Christian themes into paganism
Sauce?
@@blehblehk5955 in fact even Baldur and his mother Freya were added as an allegory to Christ and Mary... it's why I know Pagans are just LARPing, trying to latch onto some kind of spiritual connection but their own beliefs are rife with Christian symbolism and themes due to the Edda being written down by a Christian.
Just like the christians went back in time and wrote the kali yuga into the vedic scriptures.
Nice 19th-century lefty secular-humanist "scholarship" you have there...😏
I feel what Jay is asking for from Dave here is for proof that Germanic Paganism is coherent through an organized and systematized theology, and the reality is that paganism simply lacks that, and this may very well be a flaw in the religion. Dave sort of scratches at the solution to this problem when he talks about using the Vedas and Avestan scripture for reference in reconstructing the theology, but there's a lot within those religions that needs to be learned before approaching the task of incorporating philosophical concepts from those religions into Germanic Paganism, and most pagans simply don't have that background knowledge. That does in fact need to change. Pagans do need a coherent, cohesive theology before they can tackle these debates, because Traditional Christianity has a wealth of solid philosophy and theology, and for paganism to try to debate it is a pretty one-sided fight. Paganism is severely lacking in those department, but that can be remedied by tapping into other Indo-European theology by learned scholars. So it's going to be a work in progress.
That being said, the framework is still there, and much of Jay's requests for a concrete basis for pagan moral philosophy can be found in the Hindu concept of dharma, it just needs organized theological application to paganism by scholars.
@Volkstum I think thia debate kinda proves precisely that paganism needs a better theological framework. There may be contradictions within the behavior of historical Christianity, but that doesn't mean the religion itself is incoherent, because clearly the Early Church Fathers put a great deal of effort into making sure it was internally consistent, which is the whole basis of Jay's arguments.
Too many pagans aren't scholarly, which is understandable given the status paganism is in in the modern world, but if we want to be taken seriously, we need to build up thr intellectual, philosophical backbone of the faith if we want it to be viable. Much of the hard work has already been done for us too, in that Hinduism has a wealth of philosophical examinations that can be applied to Germanic Paganism if one was only to take the time to do so.
@@Maximooch Depends on what specifically you're interested in. Liturgy, cosmology, ethics, epistemology, eschatology, etc. It's kind of a complex topic. Off the top of my head, I would say that a foundational aspect of all Indo-European religions is the idea of cyclical time, reincarnation, and social and religious hierarchy.
@@Loddfafnisodr How? Level an actual inconsistency and we can work with that. Obviously I'm not a Christian so I won't be able to as effectively run apologetics for that worldview, but I have a decent enough familiarity with it to evaluate if it's a decent charge of inconsistency.
@@Loddfafnisodr How so?
At this time it is a little hard to do because christian persecution destroyed some much of native belief systems, not just in Europe but where ever Christianity goes there is cultural destruction.
38:52 notice him pulling a log from his own eye here weaponizing "religious experience(s)" as I currently attempt to emulate
its a shame that you couldn't find a better opponent that has experience in authentic logical rules and debate as well as a genuine knowledge of the Codex Regius.
Wouldn’t I have more of a basis to worship Batman? I can guarantee there’s more literature about Batman than any of these pagan Gods at this point. Is the difference between Odin and Batman that one was worshipped a really long time ago and that’s what makes it true?
It is crazy to see how much deeper jay thinks than the pagan