Kendo「剣道」- Amazing Shiai - Show no mercy [VID:20120225001]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Taken at the 60th Tokyo Ward Kendo Taikai.
[Open discussion]
This particular match will raise questions among people who thinks Kendo is all about discipline, character building through the way of the sword, and being courteous through virtual of oneself to another.
Having said in a shiaijyo, it's a simulation of a sword fight and hence you must kill your opponent to win. Although the this particular fight can come across as aggressive, or not Kendo in some people's mind. The questions to ask are:
1. Why the Shinpans give the white senshu a hansoku when clearly that he got pushed out through force.
(Points to consider: Shinpans have in the past not awarded an hansoku for disadvantage jyogai)
2. Why the Shinpan allowed the white senshu to attack his opponent when he is on the ground?
(Note: Some shinpan have stopped a fight immediately when an opponent falls to the ground. What did the shinpan said to the senshu in red?)
The answer might lie in the realm that the red senshu fought courageously with spirit and that is why. But some could easily disagree....
In fact the team in red (white team) are the Imperial guards.
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For all the people shocked by the brutality in the video, please keep in mind that this particular Taikai is performed under pre-War Kendo rules which allows grappling, foot-sweeps, and all sorts of maneuvers that are illegal by modern rules. All teams enter *expecting* this. Most of these practitioners are high ranking and are quite familiar with what "good" Kendo looks like in a regular setting.
What's the name of this taikai? Is it just for the police/imperial guard or are other pre-war dojos such as Haga invited as well?
no
MorbusFreak2011 national police kendo championships. Rules only apply for police kendo. Also in individual police taikai they fight in ippon shobu mode, leg sweeps are allowed as well
in my humble opinion, they shouldn't have changed the rules; kendo should have stayed in that raw form
@@thane9471100% it’s such a better fight!!
Absolutely fantastic! I would love to have this kind of shiai one day!
@charliekkendo : "Imperial Guards" are policemen specifically selected to serve and protect the emperor of Japan.
I like these kind of fights, because it's a real fight! Awesome kendo fight, must watch! Please more!
Check out hema longsword sparring
i like your commentary on the video, that helped me understand it more. good job, thank you!
I just came across this video. Several years later, but what I see in the match is not the civilian Kendo so much as a legacy Kendo. Understanding it in the context of who the participants are and the purpose for which they train, it makes all the sense in the world that so many commenters are shocked by the violence of actions and that's okay because you're civilians who don't have to use your Kendo in any war-like context, but try not to judge the participants too harshly. They are practicing legitimate Kendo. It's just not the Kendo you are familiar with. I went and watched a high end three-gun shooting competition once and I was kind of pissed off to hear the inexperienced, unknowing civilian spectators judge the "practical" applicability of the techniques and equipment some of the contestants employed, as if to say this shooting sport was somehow a direct reflection of the combative techniques and tactics of Soldiers and Marines in war. I'm a Marine. It is not. It is a sport that has roots in it's past military practitioners, but it's been stripped of the necessary inefficiencies and brutalities of warfare. That's exactly what modern post-war Kendo is. It is directly descendant of the Kendo of the Meiji and earlier era's military techniques and tactics (which truthfully was stripped down and systemized from earlier ryu of Kenjutsu,) but it is stripped of the inefficiency and brutality of warfare that is not beneficial to the civilian practitioner who's goal should always be on self improvement through the way of the sword. The Three-gun shooter seeks greater accuracy, faster times and self development through the way of the gun. The Samurai of old and the modern Soldier and Marine seek to survive long enough to overcome, suppress, destroy the will of their enemy or to destroy the enemy outright so they are no longer a threat, or to put it in the words of Gen. Patton, "We're gonna murder those lousy Hun bastards and use their living guts to grease the treads of our tanks!" That sounds awful and offensive compared to something like "Choose Glock to win the championships," or "Buy Kendostar because Kendo is life," and Gen Patton was putting it nicely. A little secret, btw: I served on a close quarters battle team and I was as good or better than most of my brothers, but with the equipment and techniques we used back then, I wouldn't be getting any trophies in a modern shooting competition. What those guys can do and the gear they have is incredible, accurate and fast, but at the same time, I'm quite confident I'd kick their ass if it came down to a straight up gun fight 'cause I'm very comfortable with being a brutal, violent, sneaky, cheating bastard to win a fight and my equipment, while inefficient, will last the hash, imperfect conditions of the field year in and year out. They are related activities, but one is an honorable activity anyone can do and if they're very serious about their practice and study, they can attain the self-improvement they seek through the way of the sword or the way of the gun as they talk about "honor" and "warrior spirit." (Those are good things to focus on, imho, if not a little romanticized.) The other is a brutal violent activity that few, (thank Buddha, God and Miles Davis,) will ever know while we talk about getting home alive and all those things we didn't realize were most important. I respect the hell out of modern kendoists and modern shootists, so try not to presume to judge swordsmen and gunfighters or offend us by pretending your romanticized idea of what we should be is actually what we should be. The imperial guard isn't doing Kendo wrong. He isn't cheating. Nor is it correct to say modern Kendo is weak or "American" Kendo is pussified. (Really? That's the best you got?) Any activity which people participate in which improves themselves, focuses themselves on their community and teaches honesty and hard work is extremely valuable and honorable, especially in these times of political, racial and personal disjointedness. Don't put them down either! Cheer them on! Encourage them! Better yet, join them! What they're doing can make the world better, even if only in a small way. Talking shit about what you clearly don't know or understand is neither Kendo, nor the real way of the warrior. And there's enough fakery and mistruth running around these days, don't you think? Cool video. Interesting comments. Let's do better in the future.
these are the imperial guards, it is their duty to destroy all enemys in every possible way. even it may seems rude to you but they broke no shiai rules. their spirit represents the spirits of the samurai who protect the emperor of japan.
Unfortunately the other kenshi's spirits were easily broken. The aggressor warranted a lot of opportunities for tsuki that white kendoka never attempted
They’re really touching tips there for a moment…
I understand that Kendo in itself is a rough and aggressive sport and that it really does test one's spirit in a fight, but I couldn't help but think if I was that rough at an opponent here, I'd lose the match solely based on hansokous (penalty points...sorry, I have trouble spelling that)....not sure if it was the shimpan that let it slide more or if I'm straight up being too aggressive.
This is good and beautiful swordsmanship. Or should I perhaps say great war skills....
Imperial Palace Guard Kendo, not normal Kendo. Don't do this at home guys.
k.. pre-war kendo is the shit!
That's more like it
Thank you for this video. I agree very much that shiai should be performed in the spirit of "shinken-shobu" and that to forget that fact is a mistake. You can build your character and discipline your spirit with kendo, but only in the mindset of shinken-shobu. Otherwise, to just work hard and sweat a lot is no different than practicing basketball. The spirit of budo makes kendo different from mere sport.
Can you elaborate more on this concept? I’m intrigued.
no, he can fight like that because it's on the rules
i didnt expect kendo to be be dis cool ngl
That white kendoka is really good, but too brutal:(
I might be too scared to sparr with him.
The reason why Red Senshu is allowed to be so brutal is that the entire spirit of Kendo is simplicity and brutality. It is elegant BECAUSE it is brutal - There is no posturing, simply focused aggression.
It's a full contact sport, kids. Red Senshu honors White Senshu by giving him his undivided attention and challenging the height of his skill with his own - He takes every advantage, as he should! It's a fight - You play to win!
is this only police tournament or it was between imperial guards vs. police?
I do not agree... If he falls by himself, it would be an accident, so striking is only find the opportunity and not "create" the opportunity. On the other side, if YOU push him down (on purpose), you DO create your own opportunity, so you should strike.
I would expect the man wearing the white hakama and keikogi to at least strike a clean men and kote on his downed opponent. Seriously, the man wearing white pushes his opponent to the ground two times, and while he strikes his downed opponent the man wearing white still cannot get a clean kote or men. So what's the point of pushing his opponent to the ground when he can't even hit his opponent who is on the ground? The downed opponent blocked the strikes while on the floor.
In that case, you sould not strike at all when your opponent is on the ground.
If it was a teamfight, u should.
Well, I just watched the video again. In both pushes, the red fighter was pushing not just to push but as part of an attack, which is, I believe, consistent with the rules and the best use of the tactic.
Good questions, but I think you should answer first why the shimpans gave the white senshu a hansoku and why they shouldn't have, and why the shinpan allowed the red senshu to attack and why they shouldn't have. Here is my additional question. Did the shinpans really ALLOW him to attack the white one? Is there any time limit to say "stop"? or is there any rule that the senshu cannot strike after the other one falls before shinpan stops?
I agree with you that the red player kind of uses too much brute force, not typical style for most kendo players though. I've seen some young guys play this way against much older opponents some times, and apparently they don't get others' appreciation.
at least the guy doesn't over do it to cause any injury to his opponent.
The way I see it, first "pushing episode" is okay. It was kinda - kote strike+taiatari (body check), then again, tsuki strike+taiatari. Totally fine.
On the second episode - there was no strike before taitari. It was just a straight two hands strike to the head. Boxing. Yes, a strong man can hit another person like that, while still holding a shinai. Yes, it'll create an opportunity to strike, while opponent is down. Just like a good kick to the groin will put the men down... Is it Kendo? Not one bit.
That is Kendo. The watered down stuff you have been spoon fed is fake.
That kind of pushing just looks like a good way to throw YOURSELF off balance and potentially fall on your face. I don't think it is wrong, but maybe only effective the first couple times until people catch on and just move to the side when you dive in to push them out of the ring.
That said I think their is good spirit behind red senshu's attacking.
there is practicality to this brutality, these are law enforcement, not students
To the questions in video description:
When someone falls to the ground, there is a general "one breath rule". The shimpans should wait for roughly the time of one breath before stopping the match, and a potential ippon scored in that time is valid.
There is the "one push" rule. Players are allowed to take one step and push their opponents once at a time, and if that throws them out of bounds, that's gives them the hansoku.
Continuosly pushing the opponent out of the shiaijo would be hansoku worthy for the one doing the pushing. But here, enough distance has been established after the first push that the second one could count as a separate valid "one push".
when a player drops his shinai or lets his knee touch the floor, he'll get a hansoku. the opponent has about 2 seconds to score. I remember this is part of of shiai rules.
Certainly they can - There are six girls that train at my dojo, and our primary sensei is a woman.
The size of the fight in the dog, ja?
The guy was already out of the red line in the first push. I believe the white was to brutal.
Under 18 tourney, they say if you did this. its call dirty. But this is what a real match is like.
Great video! Can you tell me what you mean by Imperial guards? Is that a specific police division?
I would mind if pushing the opponent out is his only trick, but he is also a good kenshi.
Everything right, but ugly.
can girls do this?????
Think: "Rat head, bovine head" and you'll defeat the Imperial Guard
Illegal
Isn't his opponent also a policeman?
If we had real Kendo like this here in America... with proper Tai Atari and leg sweeps, and hitting after the opponent is down... instead of the sissy Kendo where "masters" throw tantrums because you dared to Tsuki to Do... Kendo would be A LOT more popular than it is. Swordfighting is supposed to be rough and tumble, not ritual and prancing about in rigid set patterns.
i agree with you
EXCELENT!!
@seutonius100 i agree with you
dat slide tho.
No he's just awesome.
sure
Absolutely right. Well said.
Sumo ??
EVIL!!!! T-T
Nah, i think the white senshu is still okay. People should not do that in keiko. But in shiai that's okay i think. I believe his true nature will reflect on his keiko.
That's so effing awesome. I'm gonna become a Bushido soon!
In my Opinion?! Ridiculous Push ... this action fuck the KENDO spirit... Harmony and respect with the Oponent... Much Agressive... Nice KOTE's ... and claps for the 2 atlets... but need be more calm... nice vid...
All kinds of competiton including Kendo should limit players' action by rules, not opinions. If they follow kendo rules, that's kendo.
Girls can certainly practice Kendo, there is no reason why the can't, they just need to be dedicated to learning the art of Kendo, it is not a casual activity.
If the reason why the white dressed fighter is allowed to be so brutal by judges is just because he's an higher level policeman, shame on him! That may be a shiaijo, not a dictatorship's battle field. Can't see any honorable intent in that spirit. Just methodical violence.
Just a bully. There's always someone bigger. This just makes me want to see someone bigger than Red shove him around and knock him down. This is a great example of how winning isn't everything.
i understand they are iperial guards.. but this is too much aggressive. it's ok to push away your opponent but not in this way
I believe in kendo as a way to improve yourself, not a way to show how "macho" can you be
That's modern Zen Kendo.
isn't finding strength and overcoming your limits and facing strong opponents improving yourself?
This was a good video... This shows me the weaknesses of kendo
I am telling everyone: This is not Kendo. Please people.........
martin falcon Yes it is... A very brutal and unfair form.. I'd rather call this real sword fighting but it is kendo
This is stick do my friend. At most shinaido but not kendo
martin falcon that was the lamest comment ever... Shinai's are for simulating swords and there's no fucking idiot that fights like that with a real sword with a non kill intention...
I see you haven't practised Kendo Oscar: Ken: Sword Do: Spiritual way = The way of the sword (In a spiritual form) The main goal of Kendo is not killing an enemy but your self. One should be able to become the sword itself by following a strict discipline and set of rules that most martial arts share. If you want to kill people why a martial art? buy a gun. I f you want to bash people, why not try the WWF or your local rugby team. If you want to kill people with a real sword they wouldn't let you join any martial arts discipline. We have to aim for better in quality my friend.
This is not good, too brutal. The man in white shouldn't do that.
I'm not sure whether the pushing thing was to be only brutal, or just to destabilize his opponent psychologically.
But i'm new to kendo (only 2 years) so I don't know much, so much to learn still... :))
*****
Second pushing episode is basically two hands strike to the head. It's not Kendo.
VT it is acceptable
IASIAN FUNTAGE
It is not, when your opponent is far more heavier than you :D
Jixuan Liu Hm... that is very subjective though... It certainly is not the same Kendo as the traditional definition, but based on highschool level where the students haven't really see kendo as an art but rather as a sport, it is acceptable. Especially because the shimpan allowed it
This is a disgrace to Kendo
poor guy at 0.20 he throws his shinai on the ground beacause of anger i guess i personally also would have done that :ccc im new to kendo hi every body :)
Ok thanks for the information
Don't EVER do that. It's respectless to your sword and your opponent.
Yeah, you should throw it at your opponent face instead.
i see a lot of unnecesary agression in tbis video ... im a Kenshin (4 years practicing) Remember REI: the samurai should be kind even to his Enemies .
+Eduardo Heredia Cabuto they are police officers and Emperial Guards not normal kendo players like you and I. I believe there are hachidan senseis represent in both.
No, what you see is traditional Kendo, as it was before WW2. The samurai were brutal.
You bow and THEN destroy your enemy. IF it's any kind of formal duel.
Lol I think people forget what samurai really were.
I don't see Kendo here. This is just a good example of StickDo mixed with crappy rugby. Do they really learn that at their Dojo?...........I mean, they train at a Dojo right?
I believe this is from the Imperial Guard - Police Taikai. It is done under pre-war Kendo rules where all this is legal. Outside of this forum, they follow standard Kendo rules.
Oh, and you can call it "StickDo" all you want, but there are a number of hachidans present. I think they know what constitutes good Kendo much more than you and I.
Dude, it's the Imperial Guard and the Police. Don't be disrespectful or downright stupid - they know their Kendo.
they must be 10 times better than any of your senseis, so don´t talk shit
These are the guys protecting the Emperor...? That is awesome. Really aggressive but I wouldn't have it any other way if they were my retainers. Thanks for the post
Of course. If they fight they fight to kill, there#s no rules in a fight to the death.