I read that title as "how to ruin your printer at twice the speed" Made sense if you did it wrong. Happy to see the video actually was a good guide and not a record of disaster.
Thanks for the video and of course the disclaimer. I think it's safe to say that most all of us are just hobbyists and when someone is successful with something they set up it's always awesome when they share their how to, regardless if they are an expert or not. Always remember that regardless of someone's knowledge we are all students of life, so thanks for the share and helping us out!
Sir the first minute of your video earned a thumb up and a sub. If everyone had that kind of honest openness and would stay humble the hobby would be so much better. I'm sure the rest of the video will confirm this. Cheers from a fellow Voron 2 owner ;) I'm sure you're aware but Eddie (eddietheengineer) recently did a great video on stepper's theory, and the relationship between the printer's limitations VS the motor's own torque. Real interesting.
The voltage limitation of the stepstick is not the capacitors, it's the mosfets. There are no capacitors on the stepstick for the motor voltage, that is the capacitor underneath it on the motherboard, which will not be used anymore when you provide the motor power from the top. Additionally, you can easily blow up the TMC driver when wired as descried, you MUST make sure the logic power (3.3/5V) and motor power arrive roughly at the same time. Currently there are external TMC5160 drivers, which would be the way to go. The stepper alignment can easily be seen from the diag pins on the short side of the stepper
I think 48V will be beneficial for high flow hotends on stuff like the Orbiter (highly geared extruders) because you need to drive them much faster than the generic Nema17 extruders
That's a concern I had. Driving steppers faster becomes self defeating after a certain point, 48V can widen the useful range quite a bit and the extruder stepper needs pretty high acceleration at higher speeds anyway. Good that I didn't order a board yet, I'll get the Pro version and will see.
@@OneStepAhead608 I personally don't think it would be an issue as long as it's ran at the same amount of current (500mA peak for example) because the windings generate back emf at speeds which is why you need a higher drive voltage, i don't think it increases the heat output but i could be wrong there
@@OneStepAhead608 higher voltages run cooler actually, voltage is a pressure for flow of electrons, the higher it is the more easily power or amperage can be pushed across and with less loss. Low voltages require higher amperage’s to get adequate power and that is what causes heat in a wire or motor, amperage pushed across not the voltage.
Thank you for the info, I'm planning on making a breakout board for a duet wifi board for high voltage steppers, this was useful info on an overview of how the new voron setups work.
So I did have no right to be attending this TED talk because I entered knowing nothing but now I know how most of the stepper chain work thanks for your video
Great video, but one thing puzzles me. I don't have a great understanding of electronics, as evidenced by this question. I looked at a 48V PSU, I have ordered a Octopus Pro board and looked at TMC5160 drivers. Then I checked the votage rating of the two Nema 23 motors I use for A & B on my core XY printer. They and all other motors I have looked at are rated in single figures for voltage. I have seen it said here the motors do not see the 48V . . . . . . so where is the gain? That is the bit that puzzles me..
Its kind of like an amplifier if you're into audio at all. Its all about heat management. Or overclocking your CPU in your PC. If you can keep it cool, then itll take more juice... Or imagine a brushless motor for an RC car or a drone. All the speed controller on those machines are doing is changing the voltage fed to the motor, from 0 (stopped) to its max voltage (max speed) Its EXACTLY the same here. Keeping with the RC theme, its like going from an 8s battery to using a 13s battery... As long as the speed controller can keep up with the juice and not blow up (FROM EXCESS HEAT!!!) Then the faster the rc car will go! There is no like.... Hard programmed in boogie man that kills your components if you try to increase the voltage (cept safety stuff blah blah) The boogey man.... Is HEAT!!! And with more Voltage, there is the benefit of less AMPERAGE! AMPS is what puts out the heat in yo wires, if you try and put 100 amps through a 22 gauge wire...... Its gonna melt.... Same concept! I feel like Im rambling... Am I rambling.. ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ hope this helps a little?
@@TheAceofFate Thank you. Even I could understand your 'ramblings'! 🙂
ปีที่แล้ว
@@peterjordan3875 basically the driver is very carefully regulating the voltage in a way that will never overload the motor in either temp or current after tuning it properly. The higher voltage allows the current to be ramped faster.
So from what I see here there is nothing stopping someone from replacing those capacitors on their board with 63v rated caps and larger micro farad caps if you flip it to the reverse side since it’s just through hole caps anyway. Although with the pro board that takes any work out of it.
I do havce a question. In your 3D printer feeding the stepper motors with 49 VDC from the power supply, you also need the 24 VDC power supply. Do the value for ground be the same fron both power supplies. Each power supply generates the DC voltage from an AC poer source. Do you have to interconnect teh grounds of both power supplies toi guarantee the have the same voltage level? Or do you simply operate both power supplies independent of each other?
Looking at Moons site; if one runs stepper drivers at say 48v it doesn't matter what current you set; it seems the motors will generate 10-20 higher temp based on their graph. Based on that running higher voltage will actually increase stepper motor heat; not lower it. Suppose I could be interpreting Moons graph wrong.
Generally in electronics, more current will generate more heat vs. Higher voltage and lower current. Higher current has higher losses, it's the same reason power lines step up to such high voltages, and even higher yet over long distance. Otherwise the heat generated from the high current will melt the wires.
Hey josh I just finished my v2.4 and I’m definitely looking into doing the 30v on the same board as your video “octopus “ so just to verify and clarify something on my part . So I can get the 5160 drivers and a separate PSU 48v with a step-down converter to 30v and feed the negative and positive straight to the motor power on the board?
Yep that’s it. You’ll still also need 24v for the rest of the board and the bed power but you put 30v from the step down into the stepper power. I run a SKRPro 1.2 on my K2 this way.
With the added heat running 48v and higher amps, how are you handling that with the A/B motors on your Voron? Polymaker ABS-PC Blend gives you an extra 30c+ of headroom before deforming, so I've considered printing the mounts with that.
Motor isn't running 48v; stepper drivers are. I would be surprise if increasing voltage to driver resolves issue with stealtchop since it's the fast movements that steathchop has issue with. But would be interesting test to see if it does.
Hi. I will help you. And explain it simple. This is Ohm`s law. You drive your motor with electric power P=U x I . If your voltage 24V. To give more power you have to increase your current. Two main things are limiting you. The driver can go 3A max and the diameter of the wire of the stepper. You can increase both. But with the wire the size of the motor has to be changed (Larger motor). So the only option left. To increase the voltage. Be aware motor efficiency will be lower. You can not push electromagnetic flux through on a certain diameter limitless. It means your heat loss will increase. You have to cool the motor. And the insulation's has deal with the doubled voltage and increased heat. At one point you have to increase the size of the motor.
I wish, as a whole we would ditch the terminology of losses. I'm guilty myself but nothing is loss, it's transferred. I think that would assist people with understanding heat is a byproduct that needs to be dealt with. Current is not magically disappearing. It's being converted to some form of useful energy that we want and another form of energy as heat, that we do not want. Unless you're trying to heat your home in the most inefficient method possible 😂
Absolutely you can - I don’t like running that through the board just because I’m superstitious basically, less likely I’ll make a mistake. I do bridge grounds I didn’t specify that in the video but need to add that in the description.
The negative is usually the variant in electronics and positive is more of a common. I think the automotive industry is to blame for the opposite way of thinking. Electrons flow from the negative to the positive. I suppose the name negative doesn't help either. Most PWM are cycled on the negative line and positive remains constant. It's why PNP are more common than NPN transistors and Mosfets. Just food for thought, you would need to check your specific electronics but that's generally the way it goes as long as nothing is in the circuit or printer to ground two components together.
The supply voltage or its level has nothing to do with the speed. More important is how fast and how strong a stepper motor should be. And that, to put it simply, results in a watt number. Why increase the voltage? Because the conductor cross-sections can be kept smaller and the losses are also lower. But 48V stepper motors do not speed up anything at first. I have repaired real CNC machines for years. For the most part, stepper motors were used, which were even supplied with much higher voltages. Since these were extremely precise, they ran much slower than the usual 12V NEMA17 motors. Speed is not everything, because the faster, the less accurate. So this has to be compensated. This is why stepper motors with encoders are also used in real CNC machines. This makes it possible to check whether steps have been skipped during the movement of an axis and to correct this directly. In addition, measuring devices are used, such as glass scale measuring systems. This allows you to measure extremely precisely where you are on the axis. However, a really good glass scale costs more than the whole Voron printer. And they are not light either, so the plastic construction would have problems with them. This can increase the speed AND accuracy extremely. And this also with 12V stepper motors. Of course, the design of the machine has to be able to handle all of this. You can no longer work with belts or plastic parts, if only because the vibrations increase enormously. And you can't trick physics. The question is what you want: speed or accuracy? If you want both, it becomes exponentially more expensive the better it should be. The question you should ask yourself is whether you should generally change the way you print. Let's take a normal inkjet printer as an example (i.e. the one for paper). One could also print such a sheet with only one nozzle. But this would take much longer. Now, of course, you could have made the printer faster by moving the carriage faster. Or you could print several dots in parallel at the same time. One has decided for the latter, because thereby the construction can be made substantially more inexpensive. And this must also finally be implemented in 3D printers. No longer just one nozzle, but several nozzles would have to be used in parallel. This would allow much larger areas to be printed at the same speed without having to change the design or the speed of the axes, which simply leads to many other disadvantages, all of which would have to be compensated for expensively. You need an extruder with, for example, 4 or more nozzles directly next to each other, which can be controlled individually. With this, depending on the object, you could achieve many times the speed. But not with 4 or more extruders, but only with one. So you have to work with valves that can tolerate the corresponding temperatures. Theoretically, this is feasible. I don't know why nobody has thought of this yet...
I've just been psu shopping. After examining the datasheets, I'm not sure the compact LRS units are a good buy for Vorons. Their power rating is diminished to 80% when not mounted to an aluminum plate(@110VAC). The UHP units don't have this requirement to maintain their current rating at ambients below 50C. You could overbuy to compensate, but they are already quite a bit more expensive. UHP for me. Thanks again for the video. I can't wait to see your overview of the Pro version.
From what I see, IMHO, it is the UHP unit that gets de-rated by 80% when not mounted to the aluminum plate (@120VAC or USA AC voltages). The LRS units are the ones that do not get de-rated because they do not need the aluminum plate.
Motor torque is proportional to voltage, however torque also diminshes with greater speed so you won't reach double speed for double volts. Factor in the friction from the belt and carriage which also rise.
I read that title as "how to ruin your printer at twice the speed" Made sense if you did it wrong. Happy to see the video actually was a good guide and not a record of disaster.
Thanks for the video and of course the disclaimer. I think it's safe to say that most all of us are just hobbyists and when someone is successful with something they set up it's always awesome when they share their how to, regardless if they are an expert or not. Always remember that regardless of someone's knowledge we are all students of life, so thanks for the share and helping us out!
Sir the first minute of your video earned a thumb up and a sub. If everyone had that kind of honest openness and would stay humble the hobby would be so much better.
I'm sure the rest of the video will confirm this.
Cheers from a fellow Voron 2 owner ;)
I'm sure you're aware but Eddie (eddietheengineer) recently did a great video on stepper's theory, and the relationship between the printer's limitations VS the motor's own torque. Real interesting.
An excellent video, clearly still quite a niche topic but very very useful for those of us beginning to venture into higher power printing
I'm so lucky I was one you bestowed that knowledge to on Discord. thank you for the video!
The voltage limitation of the stepstick is not the capacitors, it's the mosfets. There are no capacitors on the stepstick for the motor voltage, that is the capacitor underneath it on the motherboard, which will not be used anymore when you provide the motor power from the top. Additionally, you can easily blow up the TMC driver when wired as descried, you MUST make sure the logic power (3.3/5V) and motor power arrive roughly at the same time. Currently there are external TMC5160 drivers, which would be the way to go. The stepper alignment can easily be seen from the diag pins on the short side of the stepper
I think 48V will be beneficial for high flow hotends on stuff like the Orbiter (highly geared extruders) because you need to drive them much faster than the generic Nema17 extruders
That's a concern I had.
Driving steppers faster becomes self defeating after a certain point, 48V can widen the useful range quite a bit and the extruder stepper needs pretty high acceleration at higher speeds anyway. Good that I didn't order a board yet, I'll get the Pro version and will see.
Has anyone tried running the extruder motor at 48v with an Orbiter? I think heat may be an issue...
@@OneStepAhead608 I personally don't think it would be an issue as long as it's ran at the same amount of current (500mA peak for example) because the windings generate back emf at speeds which is why you need a higher drive voltage, i don't think it increases the heat output but i could be wrong there
@@OneStepAhead608 higher voltages run cooler actually, voltage is a pressure for flow of electrons, the higher it is the more easily power or amperage can be pushed across and with less loss. Low voltages require higher amperage’s to get adequate power and that is what causes heat in a wire or motor, amperage pushed across not the voltage.
Great video. I found the info here very helpful. Note that the IEC defines high voltage as 1500v DC or 1000v AC.
Noted. So when do we get to run our steppers at 50000 rpm with "IEC HV"? 😂
Methinks my doomcube builds will be going 30V. Already have the current Octopus for em. Great stuff as always Josh thanks for sharing your findings.
Thanks man!
Very informative video… Can you please share your klipper config for the 5160 on octopus pro?
Thank you for the info, I'm planning on making a breakout board for a duet wifi board for high voltage steppers, this was useful info on an overview of how the new voron setups work.
I just got my tmc5160 pro it's rated for 63v but my card is SKR 2, so I need to upgrade it 🤔
E does not move at all with 48V / BTT tmc5160pro v1.1 / 1.7A motor 42 / Vref 800mA / Marlin / SPI, needing some help please
So I did have no right to be attending this TED talk because I entered knowing nothing but now I know how most of the stepper chain work
thanks for your video
Great video, but one thing puzzles me. I don't have a great understanding of electronics, as evidenced by this question. I looked at a 48V PSU, I have ordered a Octopus Pro board and looked at TMC5160 drivers. Then I checked the votage rating of the two Nema 23 motors I use for A & B on my core XY printer. They and all other motors I have looked at are rated in single figures for voltage. I have seen it said here the motors do not see the 48V . . . . . . so where is the gain? That is the bit that puzzles me..
Its kind of like an amplifier if you're into audio at all. Its all about heat management. Or overclocking your CPU in your PC. If you can keep it cool, then itll take more juice... Or imagine a brushless motor for an RC car or a drone. All the speed controller on those machines are doing is changing the voltage fed to the motor, from 0 (stopped) to its max voltage (max speed) Its EXACTLY the same here. Keeping with the RC theme, its like going from an 8s battery to using a 13s battery... As long as the speed controller can keep up with the juice and not blow up (FROM EXCESS HEAT!!!) Then the faster the rc car will go! There is no like.... Hard programmed in boogie man that kills your components if you try to increase the voltage (cept safety stuff blah blah) The boogey man.... Is HEAT!!! And with more Voltage, there is the benefit of less AMPERAGE! AMPS is what puts out the heat in yo wires, if you try and put 100 amps through a 22 gauge wire...... Its gonna melt.... Same concept!
I feel like Im rambling... Am I rambling.. ?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ hope this helps a little?
@@TheAceofFate Thank you. Even I could understand your 'ramblings'! 🙂
@@peterjordan3875 basically the driver is very carefully regulating the voltage in a way that will never overload the motor in either temp or current after tuning it properly. The higher voltage allows the current to be ramped faster.
So from what I see here there is nothing stopping someone from replacing those capacitors on their board with 63v rated caps and larger micro farad caps if you flip it to the reverse side since it’s just through hole caps anyway. Although with the pro board that takes any work out of it.
48V is future of printers. Steppers like 48V.
Great video 3yrs later
I do havce a question. In your 3D printer feeding the stepper motors with 49 VDC from the power supply, you also need the 24 VDC power supply. Do the value for ground be the same fron both power supplies. Each power supply generates the DC voltage from an AC poer source. Do you have to interconnect teh grounds of both power supplies toi guarantee the have the same voltage level? Or do you simply operate both power supplies independent of each other?
Looking at Moons site; if one runs stepper drivers at say 48v it doesn't matter what current you set; it seems the motors will generate 10-20 higher temp based on their graph. Based on that running higher voltage will actually increase stepper motor heat; not lower it. Suppose I could be interpreting Moons graph wrong.
Generally in electronics, more current will generate more heat vs. Higher voltage and lower current. Higher current has higher losses, it's the same reason power lines step up to such high voltages, and even higher yet over long distance. Otherwise the heat generated from the high current will melt the wires.
You will see less heat at the same amperage with higher voltage
I'd upgrade my V0 to 48V, but it already wants to walk off the table.
You need weight in the base for stability, or just attach it to a heavy base plate with bolts/screws
5160 does UART as well as SPI
Hey josh I just finished my v2.4 and I’m definitely looking into doing the 30v on the same board as your video “octopus “ so just to verify and clarify something on my part . So I can get the 5160 drivers and a separate PSU 48v with a step-down converter to 30v and feed the negative and positive straight to the motor power on the board?
Yep that’s it. You’ll still also need 24v for the rest of the board and the bed power but you put 30v from the step down into the stepper power. I run a SKRPro 1.2 on my K2 this way.
However long the video is, it's fact packed and far from boring.
With the added heat running 48v and higher amps, how are you handling that with the A/B motors on your Voron? Polymaker ABS-PC Blend gives you an extra 30c+ of headroom before deforming, so I've considered printing the mounts with that.
There is no added heat. If anything you will have less heat with higher voltage at the same amperage
I've got an skr pro 1.2 as well, can I just swap out the capacitors to higher voltage ones and everything will be OK?
Could I double the usable Stealthchop speed with a 48V motor voltage?
Motor isn't running 48v; stepper drivers are. I would be surprise if increasing voltage to driver resolves issue with stealtchop since it's the fast movements that steathchop has issue with. But would be interesting test to see if it does.
Which steppers to use with 48v or even 56v for that matter. I'm having hell finding any steppers rated over 24v.
BTT has a 5160HV that does 48v, 56v I think is pushing it for a 5160 by design spec but that would be your best bet
@@alexmills1329 It works because it uses external transistors, correct?
@@soundspark external mosfets for power management yeah
@@alexmills1329 I meant the MOSFETs on the stepper sticks, located outside the TMC5160 package.
cant wait till 48 volt is the norm in a year or two
hey man thanks for doing what u do
Conformal Coating*** It is indeed for moisture protection. Shits everywhere.
Hi. I will help you. And explain it simple. This is Ohm`s law. You drive your motor with electric power P=U x I . If your voltage 24V. To give more power you have to increase your current. Two main things are limiting you. The driver can go 3A max and the diameter of the wire of the stepper. You can increase both. But with the wire the size of the motor has to be changed (Larger motor). So the only option left. To increase the voltage.
Be aware motor efficiency will be lower. You can not push electromagnetic flux through on a certain diameter limitless. It means your heat loss will increase. You have to cool the motor. And the insulation's has deal with the doubled voltage and increased heat.
At one point you have to increase the size of the motor.
I wish, as a whole we would ditch the terminology of losses. I'm guilty myself but nothing is loss, it's transferred. I think that would assist people with understanding heat is a byproduct that needs to be dealt with. Current is not magically disappearing. It's being converted to some form of useful energy that we want and another form of energy as heat, that we do not want. Unless you're trying to heat your home in the most inefficient method possible 😂
Thanks!
Nice. But can’t you just short the V- of the 24V PSU with the V- on the 48V one? This way you can run half the cables
Absolutely you can - I don’t like running that through the board just because I’m superstitious basically, less likely I’ll make a mistake. I do bridge grounds I didn’t specify that in the video but need to add that in the description.
The negative is usually the variant in electronics and positive is more of a common. I think the automotive industry is to blame for the opposite way of thinking. Electrons flow from the negative to the positive. I suppose the name negative doesn't help either.
Most PWM are cycled on the negative line and positive remains constant. It's why PNP are more common than NPN transistors and Mosfets.
Just food for thought, you would need to check your specific electronics but that's generally the way it goes as long as nothing is in the circuit or printer to ground two components together.
The supply voltage or its level has nothing to do with the speed. More important is how fast and how strong a stepper motor should be. And that, to put it simply, results in a watt number. Why increase the voltage? Because the conductor cross-sections can be kept smaller and the losses are also lower.
But 48V stepper motors do not speed up anything at first. I have repaired real CNC machines for years. For the most part, stepper motors were used, which were even supplied with much higher voltages. Since these were extremely precise, they ran much slower than the usual 12V NEMA17 motors.
Speed is not everything, because the faster, the less accurate. So this has to be compensated. This is why stepper motors with encoders are also used in real CNC machines. This makes it possible to check whether steps have been skipped during the movement of an axis and to correct this directly. In addition, measuring devices are used, such as glass scale measuring systems. This allows you to measure extremely precisely where you are on the axis. However, a really good glass scale costs more than the whole Voron printer. And they are not light either, so the plastic construction would have problems with them.
This can increase the speed AND accuracy extremely. And this also with 12V stepper motors. Of course, the design of the machine has to be able to handle all of this. You can no longer work with belts or plastic parts, if only because the vibrations increase enormously. And you can't trick physics.
The question is what you want: speed or accuracy? If you want both, it becomes exponentially more expensive the better it should be.
The question you should ask yourself is whether you should generally change the way you print. Let's take a normal inkjet printer as an example (i.e. the one for paper). One could also print such a sheet with only one nozzle. But this would take much longer.
Now, of course, you could have made the printer faster by moving the carriage faster. Or you could print several dots in parallel at the same time. One has decided for the latter, because thereby the construction can be made substantially more inexpensive.
And this must also finally be implemented in 3D printers. No longer just one nozzle, but several nozzles would have to be used in parallel. This would allow much larger areas to be printed at the same speed without having to change the design or the speed of the axes, which simply leads to many other disadvantages, all of which would have to be compensated for expensively.
You need an extruder with, for example, 4 or more nozzles directly next to each other, which can be controlled individually. With this, depending on the object, you could achieve many times the speed.
But not with 4 or more extruders, but only with one. So you have to work with valves that can tolerate the corresponding temperatures. Theoretically, this is feasible. I don't know why nobody has thought of this yet...
I order my uhp-500-48 from TRC electronics. They area great USA company and ship them out lightening fast!
I've just been psu shopping. After examining the datasheets, I'm not sure the compact LRS units are a good buy for Vorons. Their power rating is diminished to 80% when not mounted to an aluminum plate(@110VAC). The UHP units don't have this requirement to maintain their current rating at ambients below 50C. You could overbuy to compensate, but they are already quite a bit more expensive. UHP for me. Thanks again for the video. I can't wait to see your overview of the Pro version.
From what I see, IMHO, it is the UHP unit that gets de-rated by 80% when not mounted to the aluminum plate (@120VAC or USA AC voltages). The LRS units are the ones that do not get de-rated because they do not need the aluminum plate.
Motor torque is proportional to voltage, however torque also diminshes with greater speed so you won't reach double speed for double volts. Factor in the friction from the belt and carriage which also rise.
What has been your experience with 48V in terms of noise/ resonance (print quality) on the 2.4? Any improvement or is this solely for speed?
Great video. Beware guys twice as fast means it breaks faster too.
For sure!!! Printer go brrrr isn’t free :)
@@JoshMurrah Which is why I'm using Loctite religiously as I build my frame.
Meanwell is Taiwanese. There are better supplies out there, but they are good enough.
You really should mention bridging the V- output of PSUs together…
A lot of talk, no benchmark or demonstration of the working printer..... 29 minutes wasted.