I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this. Think about it for a second: For an FM antenna, it is totally possible to pick up RF and amplify it into audible audio. That means there IS an RF signal in the audible range that can be picked up by electronics, even when you don't WANT them to. A major reason the FCC exists is to regulate and control radio frequencies to prevent electronic feedback from crossing device domains in an unplanned / undesired fashion. So this is a real problem. Add in power lines and noisy AC power in dense residential areas is at 60hz. This is a problem in most urban areas. Anyone who has held a sensitive microphone near an unshielded computer will pick up EM noise in the audible range. Try it sometime, and you'll see it definitely exists. Anyone who has ever used a Nextell or wireless communication device near sensitive speakers or amplifiers will remember the buzzing pulses of the radio signal that impact your playback devices. I honestly believe the nay-sayers simply lack the necessary life experience to combine with their engineering knowledge to see how, even with the best shielding and filtering, you will never completely eliminate RF / EM interferance. It's a bi-product of using electricity for anything. Your best hope is to minimize it to the point where it is inaudible. That's why you use an appropriate level of filtering based on your scenario / needs.
I believe that if the cables were indeed that significant, it would have been easy to validate this hypothesis. the multiple inconclusive efforts to prove that this issue is indeed dramatic, prove the opposite - I hope to see a listening blind test instead of showing RF microvolts - all my life I am doing science and we have acceptable ways to prove or disprove an hypothesis. so lets do it
I used to travel full time as a consultant and always took my Cambridge Soundworks Model 12 portable stereo with me. Many times if it was powered on, without music playing, I could hear a local FM radio channel. I made a braided cable, and it never happened again.
You can (might) hear the radio signals if you run them through an amplifier. But if you're using a passive speaker set there's no amplifiers between the speaker cable and the drivers. If your amplifier handles the noise filtering (as all good ones should) then you won't hear the noise that is picked up by the cables. I'm guessing that the cable you're talking about was the input cable to the amplifier.
OK, so unshielded, untwisted pairs of copper act as an antenna and detect high frequency RFI / REIN (Radio-electrical injection noise). Fine. At what magnitude? Several volts at several amps? No. Typical radio signal receiption levels - which isn't enough to power a fart. Are any of these frequencies replicable by an actual speaker driver unit? No. Even if they were, are they audible? No. These aren't the issues to focus on. What you need to focus on is the impedance introduced by a cable, and the impedance curve of the speaker across the audible frequency spectrum. E.g. my front speakers drop as low as 1.1 Ohms at certain points on the audible frequency spectrum despite being rated at "8 Ohms". Therefore, in order for transients to be handled accurately with all the attack, subtlety, and nuances, it's imperitave that my cables are impedance matched (e.g. not wildly different lengths to one another), and that my cables have an intrinsicly very low impediance, which is why I bi-amp my front speakers with four core 4MM (12AWG) cable, which has an imedance of 4.6 Ohm / KM (0.0014 Ohm / foot). That's all that's required to ensure that the speakers get exactly what your amp presents to them through all rapid-transients and low-impedance events. Thinner cable would introduce voltage sag under high current / low impedance loads and the impact of attack / subtleties would be lost. QED Performance Micro cable, for example, has an impedance of 29 Ohms / KM vs. Vandamme Black Tour Grade 4mm cable having said impedance of 4.6 Ohm / KM. This is the really important characteristic to look out for when choosing cable. If you're going to do a listening test, it needs to be a blind test, and there needs to be one or two instances throughout the test where your hired help tells you he has changed the cable, but in fact hasn't, to fully rule out any imagined changes or psychosomatic / placebo effect.
The sad truth is that he likely konws that, if he knows anything about electronics, but chooses to pull a hoodwink on his audience. FM radio signals picked by such an antenna would be at best a few micro-volts (assuming a very high impedance receiving circuit). Not even a microwatt of power available, the only thing that Danny properly hinted _"[otherwise] we would be using it. It would be wireless power transmission"_ A tower speaker requires volts to be driven, and several watts. I.e. a factor of > 1.000.000 (120dB) over whatever RFI the speaker cable might get over the air. And like izools wrote, it'd be in the MHz+ range anyway, outside of the amp/speaker's pass band. That's one reason why audio systems use shielded cables btwn source & pre-amp / amp: bc it is a high impedance & low signal connection. So RFI noise might be picked up as faint noise if these circuits do not properly low pass filter above the audio freq range. But hell no on the amp-speaker connect. Unfortunately most people in his audience don't know better, so they end up looking up to the guy who speaks with authority with FR plots in his hand, not knowing he sometimes peddles false technical arguments to sell his products.
I did a blind listening test years ago by a famous mastering engineer who was very skeptical i could hear differences in interconnects and i got it right 10 out of 10 times. And this was also changing the direction of a certain cable.
Here is a specific question. At what RF ambient field strength (in Volts per meter) do you start to need special cables? Obviously at zero you don’t need anything special, so how do you determine that? Have you measured rooms? Do you have any method to advise your flock who does and doesn’t need special treatment? Or do you just tell everyone to spend a bunch of money whether they need it or not? Also, the wires INSIDE you speakers have no special treatment...what do we do about that gigantic unacceptable exposure?
@@paulcs2607 utter bullshit designed to attempt to retain credibility. What you will not ever do is bring your arguments into the ASR community, which is packed full with people who have done extensive listening, scientists who know how the human ear can be fooled because they have proved it. YOU reject science, because if you even hinted at accepted it, virtually everything you espouse would be revealed as utter manipulative nonsense.
If you so the speaker cable comparison. Then maybe make sure that they are measured or equal somehow (see below). Because if you plow down a lot of time and effort into this. Then it is not so useful if the measurements guys say "yes of course you hear a difference because the cables are of different lengths/resistance/gauge/capacitance/material. May I suggest that you take your nice speaker cable that is braided. Cut 4 equal lengths of them (when they are still braided). Un-braid two of them and make them straight. (The braid is the noise cancelation anyway) Now you have two pairs/sets of speaker wires that has the same length/gauge/resistance/material/dielectric. One pair braided and a pair unbraided. If you can make 10 of 10 with those two pairs of speaker wires. Then the measurements guys has can't argue against anything. Otherwise we will be in this blaming game in infinity 😅
That is NOT necessary. A test between ofc 12 ga wire to any other wire is all thats needed. Since no one has ever passed a double blind test, many were made with cheap 12 ga and expensive wire to hopefully be able to tell a difference. I say use high dollar fantastic wire vs cheap 12 ga. But the test needs to be pretty well controlled.
Being a general flat earther, I have to say there is a reason for this flat earth concept. The reason is that in double blind testing (over 10,000 tests at least), no one has been able to correctly determine which cable was which. Now, that does NOT mean that if someone does a real test where levels are matched and the listener has no idea which cable is which, but they get the pick right one 75% of the time, then I will be the first to say that this person did it!. The problem is no one has been able to do it so far. So, if it happens, then it will be a HUGE, MAJOR advance in cable testing. Thousands of tests have been done with listeners who claimed they could EASILY tell the difference with NO PROBLEM at all. Then the "deer in the headlights" look after the tests as they found out they were not even doing as good as flipping a coin. The problem was they had never done a double blind test. They had done A/B tests with massive confirmation bias and convinced themselves they could EASILY tell. So, no one has been able to tell before but that doesn't mean it will never happen in the future. All that needs to happen is have the levels matched and then do not allow the listener to see the switcher or know which he is listening too. You can't have the switcher wander out from behind the curtain after he switches. He has to keep totally silent and non-visible. Also, no sounds of the switcher hefting a huge cable up for the switch. I can actually with a few visual or listening clues easily have someone be wrong 100% of the time. But anyone watching would not understand how I did it as they do not know what to look for. I suggest 20 switches and if anyone gets 14 right, that would really be that cats meow. Good Luck and I'm very interested in how this comes out for you.
@Baz There’s no analogy there. Take your own advice. Just a quick lesson: The “analogy” was suggested by Danny. He calls people who trust only empirical evidence flat earthers. I simply suggested it was the reverse. Your issue is with the OP - Danny. And it’s a simile, not an analogy. And you’re a jerk and fanboy. Oh, and a troll.
Take this for what it's worth. I had noise in my tweeter from a few inches away. Nothing crazy. Did Danny's point to point crossover upgrade. No more noise. I mean, zero. The hypex amp modules have a really low noise floor, and the quality of the components in the crossover upgrade removed a lot of useless metals from the signal path. I don't take this to the extreme and shell out tons of money, but I have had problems with noise, and have had to entirely redo my system. Things you wouldn't expect, like 12v trigger cables, can bring unwanted noise to your system. Personally, I'm a member of both forums, and have found great help on both forums. ASR helped me choose and build the right amp for me, and without audiocircles, I'd probably still be working on that damn crossover. Did my center. Can't wait to do the mains. Especially with mine in particular. Not sure what klipsch was thinking with a 10db dip in the midband
I have a basic system and recently replaced my speakers with new ones. And as you should do was messing with the placement and trimmed the ends of the speaker cables and checked all the connections for tightness after prob 5-6 years since last check. The speaker binding posts have a different arrangement for the connecting bars between the lower an high freq sections, (they are internal). I set them to open and replaced them with jumper cables made from the same cable as my speaker cable. I noticed a difference, whilst messing around my wife had sat down and was on her phone not paying attention as I was back and forward a/b the jumper cables, she asked me what I had done as it sounded a better. I told her I was just listening to the lyrics of that particular song and continued to A/B between them playing the same track and she was distracted from her phone by the difference and told me when it was better sounding!! i.e.as soon as the jumpers were back in. I then played two other tracks with them in and then removed them and played the two tracks again, she asked me if I had done anything to the stereo as it was sounding better before!!! I then told her what I had been doing, she said I thought something was going on with her ears. either way for your self.
Audiophiles are super humans with the power of super hearing but like all super heroes, they have one weakness..their super hearing goes away the moment their vision is blocked
@@parasitelights3158 Only a photographer would understand the analogy I guess. An untrained eye can look at a photograph/print and think it's just fine. A trained eye can see all the imperfections. I think the same can be applied to audio. My wife wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a crap audio file playing versus a lossless one. Doesn't mean there is no difference, she just can't tell. With that being said I think there is a ton of snake oil in the audio industry including most cables.
@@JustBrowsing777 I completely understand what you mean - I don't understand what the connection is with the first post and not to mention how bad your comparison is. You have to be very visually impaired so that you can't tell the difference between good and bad printing. For example, I have worked professionally with printing for about 10 years and from day one, without any previous experience it was quite obvious to me what is good and what is bad printing, given that I have vision problems and have never been professionally engaged in photography. And as far as I remember, of all my colleagues, there was only one that I saw carrying a serious camera from time to time. On the other hand, audio is completely subjective - different people hear and like completely different things. Again, I point my self as an example, but for all my life I've heard the bats without any problem, including to this day when I'm approaching 50's and at the beginning I was thinking that this is the norm, but I do not know anyone who hears them. In the high audio classes is a completely different situation and in 99,9% of cases it is a matter of habit. The moment you listen seriously to a system that at first seemed incredible for several months, you hear all the problems and think about upgrading. The same goes for audio formats. And when you fall into this bottomless pit for couple years, at one point you no longer need a few months but a few seconds to hear the difference. But wherever we look at it, you only can hear the difference between a $ 30 and $ 3000 per meter cable only if you've seen it first.
@@parasitelights3158 I guess we just don't agree fullly here then which is fine. My first response to the initial post was meant with slight sarcasm. I have also worked professionally with printing, Photoshop and photography hence my reference. In my experience a majority of ordinary people who hand in their photos to be printed cannot see if a print is perfect or just bland (unless they have 2 or more versions to compare. Even then...). Not referring to professionals or enthusiasts of course.
13:20 - I am very excited to hear that you'll do a blind test video. I know that double blind gets a ton of promotion, but I think a good blind test is all anyone really needs. Just like the guys on the hyper-objective side say sometimes, as long as you're not getting feedback from the person or object that does the switching, that's all you really need. Double blind is just a way to make sure there are no hints. I get double blind, but I think it's really over hyped. The only need is to cut of peripheral communication from the tester and the subject. I do still think that if we can hear something and identify it, we should also be able to articulate what that is and quantify it. If we can quantify it, we can get an objective measurement with an inanimate object that is much much more sensitive than a human.
Why do people think that if you can't measure it you can't hear it, that's an assumption I have a problem with. Wire has electrical properties, of course they make a difference. Good, bad, better, that's all subjective. I've compared two sets of audio interconnects, both 1 meter, 1 tara labs, 1 transparent, and you didn't need a blind test, it was that apparrent. I can understand if you have to keep switching back and forth but this was 1 switch. Can't say one was better but definately different. Now the law of diminishing returns really comes in to play with audio gear, big time!
You know how sound works don't you? Something must cause vibrations in the air, enough for it to reach your ears. If it can be heard, it can be recorded and it can be measured. So, record the spectrum of a sound played with one cable, record it played with another cable, compare the two spectrums. Why do people, especially older males, think their ears are as accurate as scientific equipment? You probably wear glasses if you're a bit older because eyes, like ears, deteriorate over the years.
You say wire has electrical properties. That’s true. Do you believe these properties are unmeasurable? That can’t be true because you claim that your ears can detect the difference. Therefore it is measurable, and that means you are claiming that your ears are more sensitive instruments than electronics that can detect distortion down to -135 decibels. Do you REALLY stand behind that?
@@plcamp1 , I don't believe that the sense of space and sound staging can be measured. There's more to the sound than just freq. response and such. I've sat and listened to a piece of music then made a change and suddenly it was like the wall behind the speakers was removed, so yes I do believe in science but science isn't the all of it.
@@captainwin6333 , I don't believe that the sense of space and sound staging can be measured. There's more to the sound than just freq. response and such. I've sat and listened to a piece of music then made a change and suddenly it was like the wall behind the speakers was removed, so yes I do believe in science but science isn't the all of it.
Hey Danny ,, you don’t have to prove nothing to me,, i have been a professional masking engineer for over 30 years ,,and I use your cable in my professional mastering set up,,and it does make a difference,,,... and as a result ,,my mixes are better... just let the people in the know enjoy ,, and the haters.. can stay in the dark..eat his flat...lol
I'm a long time audio engineer and have my own studio now. Cables can clearly make a difference and there's no question of it, the differences can be quite large. But we cannot measure why we hear the difference. This offends those who beleive our current knowledge is endless and we know everything, but I learnt to make my peace with this 30 years ago, cause theres no point in denying what's right in front of you, and some of the best professional audio engineers, and some of the best equipment designers, will happily admit to chosing some components by ear, as they cannot measure a difference to explain the sonic differences they hear.
Make sure the impedance of the two cables match. Everyone knows the lower impedance will play slightly louder and sound "better". You don't have to prove that. You can get Audtek 10 AWG for about 80 cents a foot. That should get you close. To check, you will have to play white noise through both cables and show matching SPL. Use a good SPL meter and document what the model was and what was the reading. It would be great to measure both of your cables for their properties also. I am sure Amir would measure them for free with his top of the line equipment and give you a fast turn around. This doesn't have to be adversarial. Danny, If you don't do a properly setup and documented test, you will walk away saying you proved your critics wrong and your critics will say you didn't prove anything and those of us in the peanut gallery will just throw up their hands in frustration.
I think there are other factors of a cable and its connectors that make a bigger difference in the sound of cables. I am not an electrical engineer but it seems to me a cable is essentially a large capacitor. It has resistance, capacitance and resistance, varying any of these parameters will effect sound. There is also metallurgy. Silver sounds different than copper and down the line. Not only does different size conductors make a difference in sound so does how its configured or braided. The dielectric has a huge effect as well. So there are a number of aspects of cable design that effects sound quality.
I will have to take your word on this, just like I take the word of the people who have proved the earth is round. Standing on the earth, I can’t see the curvature, but that doesn’t prove it is flat. Doing a listening test with the ringing I have in my ears that smears everything together as it is, will be fruitless. But, because I can’t (maybe can’t) hear a difference with cables doesn’t prove cables don’t make a difference. Looking forward to your up coming video and I will do cables, just because I am hearing such a huge improvement in sound quality with the X-MTMs I just finished and maybe cables might step that up a bit for someone else to hear, if not me... Thanks for your technical audiophile expertise.
You actually can see the curvature of the Earth with your own eyes, you just need a large enough body of water and a clear day. The horizon you see would be different if the Earth was flat. Aside from that, there is the classic ship appearing on the horizon proof. If the Earth was flat, ships would never appear or disappear from the horizon, they would only get bigger or smaller. In reality, ships look like they are sinking as the move over the horizon because of the curvature of the Earth.
The double blind test would be easily accomplished... 1. Listener is blind. (Obviously) 2. The person interacting with the listener is not actually doing the switching expect to tell a third individual "A or B", not knowing which cable is labeled A/B. 3. The third individual would be the one physically switching the actual cables out. Out of sight of the other two participants. Then 1 & 2 could not impart biased based upon apriori positions or be accused of leading the listener in any fashion. The larger and more varied knowledge of audiophile listening techs of the sample size (number of listeners) the more reliable the results. Perhaps teaching someone who is not an audio person but is simply willing to allow you to teach them what to listen for, as you explained doing for your employees and seeing if they could get to a point of blindly picking out the difference between cables at a rate greater than that of chance?
Great Idea, I second this. A while back Ron did an A B comparison of the Klipsch RP600M stock vs GR-Research upgraded crossover. With headphones, I could tell the difference, even though the youtube compression.
That power supplies all have filtering is based on how powersupplies actually works not really to filter incoming noise. That beeing said most soundgear uses a transformer that electrically seperates the incoming power to what goes into your amp, is then chopped up and filtered. So its quite questionable how much cld possibly make it inside an amp. But its hard to prove 100% that nothing makes it in, and possibly depends how noisy your electrical system is.
raises an interesting question on how to measure soundstage so we have another metric to quantify speakers as well as all these part upgrades. BTW that is amir from audiosciencereview and sometimes he goes too far on the measurements but he does post these measurements online which are generally helpful.
Respect for trying educate those who do not want to be educated. Every semi decent gear will be sensitive enough to translate benefits of addressing noise and interference issues by use of proper cables. But if someone has basic stereo with not yet addressed weak links might not hear the benefits. And here I think is the problem. To put is simply, people do not have good enough gear (or trained ears) to pick up benefits and build their opinion on that.
I agree but if its single blind there can be no talking and no visual interaction between the listener and the switcher. Small insignificant visual or sound cues that neither the listener or the switcher even knows is happening can radically skew the results.
@@MrDannydjmix2 Amir does not do alot of things he claims that others should do. I watch his vids, and read his blog anyway since he is extremely knowledgeable.
@@joshua43214 not so extremely knowledgeable tho but he definitely knows alot and i still think his a lil ignorant, well his still a nice guy tho and he definitely means well is just that things got a little too contented on his side
Amazes me all the negative comments. Just like flat earthers, nothing will convince them. Single blind, double even triple blind wont matter to them. Truth is it doesn’t make much cents to put hundred$ in cables on a $199 box store stereo, which is what most ppl listen to.
Thats true you cant cure even 1 shitty element in a setup with all the best cables in the world. But if you know whats good you could improve even a budget setup if all parts r good. (Like with this channels small but good bookshelf speakers compared to big awesome 3-way setups for example)
There is a wire out there called Champlain. I would love to hear if it can used in a system considering its properties, even though it is a wire I use in a Motor Control Center. A 14 gauge wire is rated at 40 amps. It is silver coated copper with a silicone insulation
Double blind could be achieved with two switching boxes with relays or something. Either stick to manual switching and try to hide the cables some other way or make it computer controlled so you can add randomness
But the connection could be severed without a relay just using any analog switch tbh. I say two switches so you can switch at the amp side and the speaker side.
@@ar_xiv You'd have to have a relay at the speaker end also and then there would be another set of cables from the relay tot he speaker that would have to be common. That would not work. And none of that is necessary. Blindfolding the listener is pretty easy, and it makes no difference who or what does the switching.
I’m not really a part of the argument or I guess the better way to phrase it would be the discussion that you were having back-and-forth with the people in this forum because that’s not a group I’m part of… In fact I haven’t even seen the gentleman’s videos that you refer to; however I will stand up for this one fact because it is a concept with that I’m familiar with. When you transmit radio frequency waves into an antenna, you apply power to that point source and it can be interpreted as a voltage and an impedance and therefore you can determine the power. I you can look at the distance from that point source And use mathematics or measurement equipment to determine the field strength either by experimental means or calculation depending on what you’d like to do. I have very expensive test equipment that I can go out with and measure FM Field strength or for that matter AM field strength and its reasonably repeatable. The measurements that I am taking are actually doing exactly what you said, they are showing the voltage being induced from an antenna into an selective receiver on my end when I’m out in the field taking these measurements. And yes as you say they are quite small when you’re far from the source, a lot of times just on the level of microvolts… But if you’re close to the source, like an FM tower for a radio station they could be as much as 10 V depending on certain factors… Certainly if you were measuring AM field strength And you were near I 10 or even a 50 kW station… You could easily have 10 V of reception on an antenna that we’re just sitting there if it were the right length of wire. And .7 v as you know is more than easily audible (quite loud actually. ) So yes you can induce voltage across miles of gap using RF… That’s just in the laws of physics.
I can't see what the problem is. If you buy the cables and they don't make a difference then send them back and Danny will refund your money. If they do make a difference and the difference is worth the money..... keep them. Its not rocket science.
I think that in order to hear such differences everything else in your system should very, very good - source, dac, amp, speakers. Even more importantly - your room should be acoustically treated (like the one in which Dany is doing this). In normal not treated living room, with moderate class electronics and speakers, which would be like 99% of people :) Even with very good system but in normal room, I don't think you will hear any kind of difference. I am not saying that the audiophile cables are snake oil, but they are very close to it :)
I added 3 feets of 3 gauge braided power cable to my 75 feets of 14/2 romex and now I can hear that Nirvana's albums sounded like shit.... Hahaha just kidding
The moment when you realize you're going to have to game the blind listening test in order to not make a fool of yourself is going to be priceless. Film that.
It has been a week since this "challenge" was accepted... I don't expect to hear much of a difference over youtube - but with what Danny says, I do expect a group of people (3 to 5) to absolutely identify cable 1 or 2 with close to 80% or higher accuracy.... But, it's been a week....
I don't know what to say. Even I was a non believer till I heard for myself. If you can't hear the difference it might be because your gear/setup may have all kinds of noise. Speak wire isn't enough to solve the issue. I will say don't listen to a proper setup. One you hear the difference you can't unhear it.
@@mrmatthewpaul I guess it's a great thing that neither you or any other human being can hear a difference when proper listening controls are used! I recommend less TH-cam bro science and more AES reading.
Thanks Danny for sharing decades of experience. Your DIY cables are extremely modestly priced. I have no doubt you can tell the difference between zip cord and yours 10/10, 100/100. Human hearing is highly developed, because survival depends on it. Able to discern the presence and location of a stalking predator, while masked by ambient noise. Extraordinary processing. Not only amplitude and phase, but higher processing with memory recognition and cortical analysis. Danny has finely tuned his "hearing" over the years.
Why everyone always compare with the worst cable ever made to made their points? Use a "good" no nonsense cable as a basis. I think a good insulated cable can reject hum and others parasites, but after that its just subjective. Don't forget that everything you hear is measurable. If you do not agree... I can't do nothing for you, because you became the flat earther is this story.
Hey! Thanks for doing this. I do trust you"re going to do your best to be honest. Can you do me a favor? Please randomize your switching. Going from A to B in strict alternation can lead to a false distinction. Just use a phone app for rolling dice or generating random numbers. If it's even, use A, otherwise use B.
Measurements should back up what you hear, not the other way around. Countless times scientists have measured something that doesn't back up an experience, just to find years, decades later that they had to measure something else, or they've discovered new things and theories that can finally explain the experience. I don't know why it's so difficult for some people to accept that science isn't "done" at any time and it's always evolving...
What bullshit is this? If I see a fata morgana in the desert, the measurements need to back up the oasis I’m seeing (I know, cliché) is actually there but if from those measurements it turns out something else is tricking my brain, we should just to denounce science and trust our senses?
@Douglas Blake Every piece of my audio equipment is produced by companies that design and develop their equipment by ear. We don't need more Julian Hirschs. Subjective audio reviewing is defensible because I want something to sound good not measure good. I don't enjoy music more knowing the distortion is .0003% and the noise floor is -90dB. When I have someone over to listen I don't run off the specs to impress them, I just let them listen.
@@TofumanFC3S I didn't say measurements are not important or that our senses are flawless. I'll give you a counter example: a while back we didn't used to discuss jitter. Some folk claimed to experience something off with digital playback equipment but they couldn't explain it at the time. Later science proved jitter was associated with what they were experiencing. With that said, don't you find it possible that we're not measuring the right thing to describe these differences that some people claim to hear? Like for instance, how do you currently measure soundstage differences with any known measuring equipment?
Regarding your workmates listening with you, you described well the important task of learning to listen critically and learning what to listen for, this may account for a great deal of the false belief that cables don't effect the sound. We have to train our ears over a long period of time doing critical listening tests before we begin to hone in on what the differences are. And of course we must have a system that is sufficiently resolving in order to hear these differences. I will do a future video myself on how to do A-B listening tests and all the necessary criteria involved. You really are on top of this, and I am learning alot from you, wished I lived in TX and could come visit, keep up the great work.
He also described the placebo effect perfectly. Of course there are many instances where a professional will pick up on things which someone inexperienced will completely miss. But it's also widely demonstrated that people will also experience what they expect to happen.
@@andys844 The placebo effect can easily be managed by making a conscious effort to avoid it, as well as by various strategies that help to minimize it, such as having several listeners present, setting your mind on the positives of either outcome (one gets me a better sounding system, the other saves me spending money on the new equipment), repeated listening tests, comparing three or more alternative products, including a low budget product among the options that will clearly present a difference, and there are a few others.
@@SpeakerBuilder I'd argue that in the case of speakers, the placebo effect is quite hard to manage. Having several listeners present can present it's own problems. Multiple experiments have shown people are often swayed by those they deem more knowledgeable or the group's idea (juries are prone to this). Focusing on the positives of both outcomes doesn't really mitigate the placebo. It's more of a cost-benefit analysis and isn't really applicable to deciding which sounds better/clearer etc. The listener should have no knowledge of price or other qualities, like what the product benefits are supposed to be while conducting the test. This is incredibly hard to do with experienced listeners because they will likely know the equipment beforehand. Yes, having more than an A/B choice does provide a more reliable outcome but in practice is can be very hard to achieve. For example, doing a speaker comparison. You might compare three speakers, but we know that placement can be critical to the sound you hear, so how do you compare them against one another in a blind way and maintain their placement and not give away to the listener which speaker is playing and not interfere with the sound in other ways like covering it with another material. Testing speaker cables should be feasible though. A black box of contactors can be used to switch between various cables and record which is active at anytime. It should be possible to design the black boxes in such a way that it's not clear which cable has been selected by listening to the connections being made of timing the changeover.
It's a weird subject for sure. Anyone who suggests that there is a difference in cables gets berated by the anti-cable group. The "anti-cablers" do no testing themselves, and just parrot that there are no differences. I bought some high-end speaker cables before because I clearly heard a difference. (Tara Labs Air 1) The most vocal attacking person to me, was a guy (who after threatening me, I then found online), who lived with his parents, and was coming up on his one-year anniversary at his first job at Best Buy. His system consisted of the lowest end model of Def Tech tower that they made, and a basic receiver. My point is, that the people who are most vocal about cables not making a difference, usually have zero experience with real Hi-Fi. They don't own it, and they've likely never heard it. A high-resolution system is mandatory.
It should be possible to use one cable, record the output, change the cables, record the output and use a bit of software to compare the two outputs. The old reverse the signal trick then switch the signal around and see what's different. Equipment can be calibrated, ears can't. I'm not trusting my ears, your ears or anyone elses ears. This "flat earthers" stuff is just condescending. People hear things in different ways, science knows this so to proclaim your ears are right and other people's are wrong is kind of anti-the-science of hearing as we know it. Yanny or Laurel was a prime example where roughly 50% heard one and the other half heard the other. That's, in part, down to the perfectly natural deterioration of our hearing as we age. I don't want to sound cheeky but you're a bit older, like me, and you're male. Both of these mean your hearing has deteriorated to a degree. Male's lose more higher frequencies than female's for any given age. It's no different to that other pair of sensory organs on your head - the eyes. Eyesight fades with age but the difference there is it can be corrected with lenses. Hearing cannot be corrected and we cannot get back the frequencies we've lost since our teenage years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanny_or_Laurel
even if we hear things differently if a speaker sounds natural to you it probably sounds natural to everyone else considering that u and everyone else hears nature that is the same even if u hear it different
@@iowaudioreviews Your just not aware. Many of the greatest audio designers will admit they have to pick some components by ear as they cannot measure the difference they can hear. Science should never dictate what you can observe as science is simply our best explanation of an observation, it can never dictate what can be observed (or you'd believe that bumble bees cant fly, or that all amplifiers operating within design limits sound the same.) Show me a machine that can pick up on a violent 'vibe' when you enter a room or will accurately determine an emotion from looking at a human face (robots are getting better, but still cant match humans.) Your belief that we know everything and that everything is quantifiable flies in the face of real experience and shows that far from being a bastion of reason, your intellect is stunted and limited to current knowledge. Thank god the human race still has some creative thinkers.....
You have the heart of a teacher. Thanks Danny. Belden Cable manufactures all types of cables. They use different recipes for sensitive communications, video cables, etc. All cables are not just the same plain recipe which they would be if signal transfer was not compromised!
Yes, Belden makes cables for the specific use cases based on the measured requirements of that category. For some reason however they don’t produce for the case of: “I’m a child of Krypton, half-god blessed with super hearing and need 1000 dollar a foot specialty cables to enjoy variation in music not even the most precise equipment can distinguish!” I wonder why that is?
I may or may not agree with your methods involving cables, but I do admire and appreciate your diplomatic, and elegant way of addressing the subject related to the ones presented by the other 'guys.'
If you plug an antenna directly into a speaker, then obviously you aren't going to hear anything! The same is true for cables that act as antennas, if they are plugged directly into a speaker you will not hear the RF noise they pick up. The story can be different if the antenna is plugged into an amplifier. that is what an amplifier does, it amplifies, both music and noise. If you have an antenna, an amplifier and a speaker then you are most of the way to a radio! If you are using an AVR and you are using a digital signal to get music to it, then you probably don't have to worry about this. But for an analogue source, this could be a problem. The other thing is electromagnetic interference, this can definitely be a problem even for cables that plug into speakers. But, you don't need special cables to solve it, just don't have cables running right next to each other in parallel. Electromagnetic noise loses power as it travels and spreads out, every additional inch you have from the source of the interference will reduce the noise drastically. Make sure there is plenty of space between any speaker cable and any other cable running parallel to it. If that is not possible, if you have no choice but to run cables close to each other, then you might need a better cable to make up for it. Also, it is possible to hear the difference between cables even if there isn't any interference on them. Different cables can have a different capacitance and impedance, so there can be a slight differences between them even if there is no noise to worry about.
Would be nice if the engineers that develop the equipment were aware of this... Oh wait! And why don’t you go ahead and show how the tiny variations in properties between to adequate cables produce ANY variation anywhere near the audible spectrum. Now that would be a scientific break through! Go for it, I’ll wait.
"But, you don't need special cables to solve it, just don't have cables running right next to each other in parallel" - funny how that got glossed over.
Actually wireless transmission of power has been around since the late 1800’s when Nicola Tesla invented the Tesla coil. Tesla could hold a lightbulb in his hand on the top of a mountain in Colorado and it would light up without any wires from a power source miles away. Also when I make Tesla bifilar coils to wirelessly transfer power through induction I use high grade copper speaker cable from Amazon! :)
I agree mostly. But people have to get it in their heads that blind testing cannot be performed without altering the results partially. Meaning that, you are only getting a fraction of the thing you are testing. 1. Because you need to let a cable settle for a while, for it to fully react which takes some time. 2. And it involves turning stuff on/off which changes the sound. (devices) 3. And when testing powercables, stuff like correct phase most times does not get corrected by most testers, making it invalid. 4. Plus when you record something and send it via a device to youtube, it only captures 1/10 of sound, then compresses it, and then the listener has to listen to it via an inferior system normally, because you have to use youtube. Plus many other things I mention on my channel. But still, you can hear a difference most of the time, just not a huge difference compared to when you follow all the factors that can play in. And when you do that, then you are anyway not doing a blind test because hours have to pass before a cable stops vibrating. Most people don't realise that it takes hours for a newly connected cables to settle. (this in itself kind of invalidates a blind test, because that means that you are adding energy to some part of the sound, which could be good or bad) It's a bit like quantum physics, as soon as you begin to observe something, then immediately you are corrupting the results, making the results only half valid. So in the end, best thing you can do is follow my check list and trust your feelings, and don't test in such a short period using standard methods. But I mostly agree with GR-Research with about most things he says. And his products look solid, and just the flow of the guy makes you really sense that he is very in tune with himself and audio. So I don't need all of this science stuff to prove that it is real, the guys indicators on his face tells the truth.
Please do this. And maybe incorporate more than 2 cables. Maybe 5...but at least 3. And switch 20 times random. I look forward to seeing it. And is it really worth the dif in price? It would be great to get the best wire for 100-200$ (6-10ft)... and compare this midrange set to high end
I remember in high school, while listening to the then hi fi level system in the band room, we would occasionally be treated to the CB chatter from the trucks going by outside.
@@robertdiffin9136 Come on, mate, you can't contradict yourself so dramatically in two consecutive posts. Truck drivers had wireless communication but at the same time wireless technology was not invented? The first patent for a wireless microphone is from 1957 and the first studio wireless microphone has been on the market since 1953 - Shure Vagabond 88. By 1972, wireless studio equipment was already old school. Just because you didn't understand what technology you had while playing in the school studio doesn't mean that the same technology hasn't existed for decades. The only way to hear a radio signal is with a radio decoder. In the 1960s, all pretentious bands was used wireless on a large scale, and truck drivers were widely heard during their live shows.
@@parasitelights3158 you are absolutely correct. My implication - poorly worded (and poorly researched) - was we were not using any wireless mics (which I have learned were in use by then). The truckers chatter would be picked up while the system was playing vinyl records on a Thorens turntable through a Sherwood S5500 tube amp into some large wall mounted Wharfedale W70D’s. Was the phono cartridge picking it up? A ground wire, the speaker wires?
You do realize that by going down this rabbit hole, you've alienated a big customer base for all that other stuff you sell. The only thing I can say is the profit margin must be really good for those speaker cables. We all know that big fat OFC cable is better than little dinky zip cord but everything beyond that is smoke a mirrors. I'm really amazed you can hear it. Are you really sure?
My customers have been asking for this information and for good quality high end cables at low price points. And we have gained a ton of new customers from doing this. Sales are up greatly across the board. And we are getting repeat from cable sales. They have been a smash hit.
well there is a problem here, the result of an objective scientific test is only as good as its design, in your case, you are the subject, the results has to be obtained by a impartial examiner/s. in your case the only option is to do it by 2 examiners working at the same time, both proficient in sound theory and the equipment used, one should be Amir and the other a friend of yours, then if you succeed you will have my most deep eternal admiration
well but probably Amir isn't open minded enough to do that, i really dare him to go there and do exactly what u said! on the other hand i believe his a good guy and I'm sure he means well but at least try ones on a good system
Single Blind testing is good enough, for this purpose. The idea behind double blind is that you further reduce bias, by removing the bias of the person doing the A/B switching, as well as the listener. It has been found, that the person doing the switching could POSSIBLY influence the listener. But, I see where you're coming from; double blind is just not practical, here. Also, as fan of both youtube channels, I'm not sure you're giving Amir from Audio Science Review a totally fair shake. You should check out his credentials, he's not just some bum trying to operate an Audio Precision analyzer. Also not sure if you missed it, but in every video there is a section about the listening portion of the testing, where he gives his impressions. When it comes to the Audio Science Review forum, that is a different matter. There are all sorts of folks that post there, and they all have varying opinions and expertise (or lack there of). Some of those folks want to measure without listening. Sometimes, though, as we have seen with crossover design: if you can see a dip in the frequency response where two woofers don't play together, do you really need to listen to know it won't sound very good? That being said, measurements will not tell you how something sounds, it will just draw your attention to errors and design flaws. However I don't know anyone serious who claims the contrary, so that argument is a bit of a red herring. Specifically Amir, does not claim this. My own 2 cents: I have heard a difference when replacing standard zip cord, sloppily attached directly to the binding posts, with 6 9's copper, insulated with non ferro-magnetic spades, but I'm not sure if I was testing the cable per se or the connecters. The nicer cable was not really that expensive, however.
I am with you on all of that. One thing I would note though. While Amir does do some listening to a speaker he tests, he only listens to one speaker. So he really isn't hearing what is brought to the table. He listened to one of our X-LS Encore speakers. It was a base level model. He liked it and recommended it. But he never really listened to a pair of them.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'm not trying to say anyone preaches the gospel. Over on his channel I had to point out that, you're not telling people they need to spend thousands of dollars, and you are not getting rich off your relatively inexpensive cable kits. I just want to jump on the notion that anyone here really has any ulterior motives or is unqualified.
You may want to reach out to Ron as he has been struggling to make "good" recordings and no doubt has Learned a lot, and I'm sure can make some worthwhile suggestions. For yeah, making recordings that truly capture Sound-staging (and more) is no easy feat.
One thing that I feel some don't realize, and that is important to note, is that Danny's overall System (Speaker, Electronics, Room, Wiring, etc.) give Danny the opportunity to hear things that others (Speaker designers, Electronics manufacturers, us Audiophile consumers, etc.) simply cannot. His system is to a large degree off the grid and very resolute, and therefore allows Danny to hear into the music more so than most. And so yeah, it then allows Danny to do the 'magic' that he does (Speaker designs, Crossover designs, etc.). Just something to consider...
@@iowaudioreviews The differences in speaker cables and interconnects is not tone, but precision and accuracy in the soundstage. If it's affecting tone, it's likely doing damage to the signal and isn't a good cable. The differences in power cables is dynamics and life. Believe me when i tell you, I used to be a skeptic. But I've listened to Danny and Paul (and others, but those two have brought me the most knowledge that have really transformed my system). I'm a DIY guy so I thought, what the hell, and I built my own interconnects, speaker cables, and power cables. Yes, there was a huge difference. I didn't change anything in the gain, room, or anything. But after installing the power cables, guess what, everything was more dynamic and hit harder, including the subs. But, don't take my word for it, ask my closet door, which started rattling like crazy after the power cable install. The power cables were the only change! Gain was the same. Room was the same, from speaker and furniture placement. Everything was the same. I ended up lowering my subs gain 3db to tame the rattling. lol I'd like to add, I believe the disconnect with skeptics is the prices of these exotic cables. I'm right there with you. I can't muster up the balls to pay for them. DIY is my friend. It's been an amazing journey.
This has reached pretty low ebb. Honestly, everyone knows that AC mains can induce a hum in audio cables. And why no mention of balanced cables? This solution has existed for decades, is commonly available and is standard in professional (analogue) audio cabling. None of this makes GR Research look good, I'm afraid.
I'm curious, how does this make GR Research look bad? Also, balanced only adds another set of problems. Unless you need balanced for some reason, un-balanced is better.
@@edgar9651 Two main reasons, first and most important is very long cable runs. Second is the cables often end up in close proximity to mains cables and other equipment. Balanced audio requires adding a extra circuitry to both ends. This circuitry is not 100% transparent (and can often be pretty questionable), so using balanced audio when you don't need it actually can degrade your audio. Balanced audio in the right situation is excellent. Where it is not needed it is at best a waste of money.
What is that cheap 12 awg cable made of? Is it OFC? Or CCA? Tomorrow I will test my new cable. Coming from an 11 awg OFC silver coated to my new kimber 8pr. Was just finishing the termination with bananas. I will use REW to see, how the frequency response is behaving. Powered by Marantz and fresh installed Elac 249. lovely speakers. I am so curious, if there is even more to discover ... or if it is only placebo.
Danny - Terry of the PursuitPerfectSystem channel ( /channel/UCrqva7JT_35j4zNcgan47bQ ) *has made some excellent high quality recordings that make signal and speaker cable differences audible* Somehow he manages to provide high res. audio on his TH-cam channel. It might be worthwhile asking him how he did it. Even I can hear the differences on a PC with a pair of budget Sennheiser headphones. Check this one out /watch?v=bVopaHeCtFs for example. Note Terry includes the hint *Put video in 4K for best sound quality* Referring to your comment about AudioScienceReview and RF on signal cables, I wrote Amir that he should INJECT RF into equipment (eg. a preamp, etc.) and measure what it does and LISTEN to it too. Transistors and op amps used in equipment operate up to several megaHertz - often even shortwave frequencies (30 MHz). Even if we can't hear it, it doesn't mean it's _not_ being amplified electronically. One theory says it may cause a device (or circuit) to be close to saturation at that frequency which has a knock-on detrimental effect on the audible frequencies. Unfortunately many people who believe only in measurements are not willing to believe that there is more to cable performance than can be measured. And they are also not willing to believe any differences they can hear unless backed up by repeatable double blind test results. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
2x blind is often overkill in audio, I agree. Note: Amir fully espouses listening as part! of comparative testing AND he stresses the relevance of instrumental measurement data. But: Often we start arguing back and forth and really we have experimental setups that are flawed ( Goes for both "camps“), some of that was addressed in this video. 1 thing though: If he can hear a "hum“, he can measure it. That is one of the easy ones, not anywhere near as complex as speaker comparison. Imho both camps have a partial hold on the "Truth“ and the placebo effect is a bitch "You are the easiest person to fool“.
@@HelmutRockstroh one camp says cables make no audible difference...the other says they do...how can both be partially right? It sounds good to say this "both camps" stuff, but it makes no logical sense.
Weather TH-cam is set to 1080p or 4k the audio stays the same. Uses Opus 251 codec which I believe is variable about 160kbps so good MP3 quality. Far as I know there isn't a way get it any better.
Definition of listening test: How would you rate the sound of this (sales)person talking about the time he did a listening test? An audio engineer's intuition: Sure, I can use to camera's built-in stereo mic...
The interesting thing about low level HF noise such as AM and FM bandwidths, is how it can back feed into amplifier gain stages causing stridency and breakup nodes especially if any global feedback is used.
Isn't typically attenuated though with a small value cap/resistor on the output terminals? I know on my ADCOM power amp there is a .1uF cap and 4.7ohm resistor in parallel between the + and - terminals.
Its way easier to say its pointless to buy high end cable than to spend time and money on testing it yourself... If you dont believe better cable sounds better, maybe you dont deserve enjoying it
Danny you are such a class act even though those who disagree with you are not. It’s so refreshing to see someone who doesn’t take it personally when others disagree with your ideas. I hate that people can no longer disagree professional and cordially. Kudos to you. Thank you and keep up the good work.
I would estimate that if you have rf in your room that is severe enough to cause speaker cables to matter...you are probably getting sunburnt at the same time. This is truly ridiculous folks! But Danny, bless his heart, knows best?
Wanna know how I know that speaker cable design has a significant effect on sound quality? Because Danny said it does. He’s a professional because he has been ‘down that road’ many times in most all the variations. There are a type of people who’s ego just can’t handle being subservient to facts that escape them. Or put another way, an entire body of discipline in a specific subject area that is attained ONLY through many years of focused observation. No short cuts. They just reject logic in lieu of ego.
His only problem is he won't do real science of doing and reconciling objective measurements and his subjective impressions. Real science requires both, just ad hoc subjective impressions is not true science. Danny should try to step up to doing true science if he wants to teach the world.
@@StewartMarkley So if 2 items that measure pretty much identically to the point naysayers say no one could possibly hear a difference, but the cheaper one sounds like shit, you would buy it "cause science". Like all super-low distortion DACs must sound identical and therefore are perfect and one need not buy anything else but a cheap DAC, right? Sorry, but if you believe that, you may save a lot of money, but you will never find that magic an exceptional unit will make. It's your loss, due to "science". I don't think anything has changed more than "science facts", in my lifetime.
@@46wireboy For the record, I purchased the drivers and built the Encore X-MTM cabinets designed by Danny but I don't use any speaker cables or power cables because I built amplifiers and active crossovers that sit on top of the speakers with very short wires heading directly to the drivers, and are powered by 48-volt batteries that are not connected to the AC mains when I use the system. So I save bundles of money and get better sound by avoiding potential problems rather than trying to tweak the system with dubious benefit. And I have the knowledge, tools, and time to measure and listen my way to audio bliss because I am now a retired audio and electronics engineer. As far as Danny trying to be a teacher, I think that it is a noble cause to undertake and I applaud him for the attempt. However unfortunately Danny makes no attempt to try to understand and reveal WHY and HOW he hears what he says he hears, which is what real science, real scientists, and real engineers always try to do. Saying that a whole cable industry exists is not evidence, proof, or science. It also is not science when someone does some measurements which they interpret to mean that there is not enough objective difference to make a subjective difference and for someone to claim that there IS an audible difference they are simply wrong. And leave it at that without making any attempt to replicate the conditions where people claim to hear obvious differences. Both conclusions suffer from INSUFFICIENT science and form the basis for ardent and zealous fans for both sides, neither one being sufficiently grounded in science to proclaim victory. Sadly I think that the struggle will continue probably forever mainly because of preconceived ideas and expenditures on fixes by the cable believers, and the inordinate cost of doing real scientific and statistically reliable double-blind testing that MAY help convince SOME of the cable naysayers that audible differences might actually exist under SOME conditions. But without attempting to uncover if, how, and why audible differences occur, there is only INSUFFICIENT SCIENCE going on. As Albert Einstein has been famously quoted as saying, "everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." And his natural curiosity of why and how there were observable differences from Newtonian physics led to a new and refined view of the universe. That's REAL SCIENCE.
Yeah but if it takes years of focused observation and "knowing what to listen for" for any of this to make a difference, what are we doing here? To me that's listening to your equipment instead of listening to the music. Never understood why you would want to spend great time and effort to learn how to recognize that your music, which always sounded great before, actually sounds terrible. My system cost more than a new Honda Civic and it still sounds like trash according to a lot of so-called audiophiles because it didn't cost more than a BMW in. Buy if I spent that it's still crap til you spend an S Class Mercedes on it. Let's just admit we are nerds with a gadget fetish as our wives well know. 😀
Can't say he's not consistent but I would say that cable comparison looks like comparing a Ferrari to a Toyota Tercel looking at those cables. I'd rather see you compare a Lexus ES350 to a Camry. And yes, hearing differences through TH-cam through our speakers is almost pointless because it doesn't work in general. I would never say using a semi high-quality cable is pointless it's just the $15,000 every three feet cable seems ridiculous!🤯
@@bigjay1970 i do believe cables can make a big difference, most cheap cables are really poor quality, bad connectors etc, but no way in h*** those 100 000 cables are worth the price!
For the record, I purchased the drivers and built the Encore X-MTM cabinets designed by Danny but I don't use any speaker cables or power cables because I built amplifiers and active crossovers that sit on top of the speakers with very short wires heading directly to the drivers, and are powered by 48-volt batteries that are not connected to the AC mains when I use the system. So I save bundles of money and get better sound by avoiding potential problems rather than trying to tweak the system with dubious benefit. And I have the knowledge, tools, and time to measure and listen my way to audio bliss because I am now a retired audio and electronics engineer. As far as Danny trying to be a teacher, I think that it is a noble cause to undertake and I applaud him for the attempt. However unfortunately Danny makes no attempt to try to understand and reveal WHY and HOW he hears what he says he hears, which is what real science, real scientists, and real engineers always try to do. Saying that a whole cable industry exists is not evidence, proof, or science. It also is not science when someone does some measurements which they interpret to mean that there is not enough objective difference to make a subjective difference and for someone to claim that there IS an audible difference they are simply wrong. And leave it at that without making any attempt to replicate the conditions where people claim to hear obvious differences. Both conclusions suffer from INSUFFICIENT science and form the basis for ardent and zealous fans for both sides, neither one being sufficiently grounded in science to proclaim victory. Sadly I think that the struggle will continue probably forever mainly because of preconceived ideas and expenditures on fixes by the cable believers, and the inordinate cost of doing real scientific and statistically reliable double-blind testing that MAY help convince SOME of the cable naysayers that audible differences might actually exist under SOME conditions. But without attempting to uncover if, how, and why audible differences occur, there is only INSUFFICIENT SCIENCE going on. As Albert Einstein has been famously quoted as saying, "everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." And his natural curiosity of why and how there were observable differences from Newtonian physics led to a new and refined view of the universe. That's REAL SCIENCE.
Your comment is a true bliss sir🙂 And the totally unheard of condescending tone from Danny in the begining, and more or less thrueout the video, is like watching Kids in the schoolyard..... and that of course goes for Amir to..... All the little smirks and what have you thrueout there videos is simply just unbearebly in the long run..... And to think I was saving for the NX-Oticas.......well the last couple of month with these videos have put an end to that....
@@clausolsen856 well don't write Danny off that quickly. I actually believe in Danny's support of the DIY community, and his designs and products in general. I actually built his Encore X-MTM speakers but sent the crossover components back to him and changed the woofers to 8 ohm woofers because I chose to actively cross over the drivers instead. And I really believe in open baffle designs so I wouldn't just drop the NX Oticas. I just don't believe that Danny really understands how to apply science, which unfortunately is the cause of all or most of anyway the controversy.
@@StewartMarkley I am not disputing that the constructions are good, to much good feedback from peoble I trust. But at some point I must draw a line......so i am out.
I saw "Understanding Danny Richie" talking about Nirvana's song "Heart shaped box". In this video you also mention Nirvana and I guess the song "Heart shaped box". As I understand it, you hear three guitars, because I can hear two clearly one a bit to the left of the center a bit into the soundscape the other to the right behind the speaker with a little lower volume, where is the third guitar then. I also listen to "Heart-shaped box" on the Deluxe version (with 43 tracks) from Qobus (Original Steve Albini 1993 mix) track 19, the left guitar is more in the center and the other guitar a little to the right and a little further in, that sounds like what you are talking about. But you hear a third guitar Is this correct?
In one of these cable videos there were 2 external links to some reference reading that Danny posted. What were the sites? I can't find them anymore. TIA
Well, you could go to PS Audio and spend $130 to $4,400 for a power cable. Or, their speaker cables from $230 to a whopping $21,100. Or, get Danny's, try it out for 30 days and if you can't hear a difference, send them back for a refund. What could be simpler?
It really dosen’t matter who is the product seller. We people believe what we want to believe. Science or proof never stopped any religion. It just make people believe even stronger.
Steve is right. It is easy to hear the differences between cables. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not tried, hasn't got a good hi-fi or has hearing problems. People who dismiss this based on theory without trying it are misleading themselves.
Then explain the abx tests already done that proved ppl can't tell a difference. Go look it up, the data is published on the web. Look up coat hanger wire vs esoteric cable. They have done ABX testing on amps too and many ppl preferred the cheap amp. Explain that.
I hope more people will do listening test. It would be great if all channels could be a little more polite. By the end of this year I plan on making a great set of cables.
That's it, make your own. Blue Jeans Cable will give you top quality and charge you what the pros pay. 12 pf/foot for RCA, and no nonsense about resistance from your speaker cables (10 ft ~ 50 milliohms in series with more than 1,000 milliohms in a worst case scenario, 4000+ milliohms typical, so the voltage divider is essentially trivial, yet hucksters would have you spend up to $1000 on a pair of cables. One of the best amps out there right now goes for $900 new, why spend more on the wires than the amp?
Your ears aren't high class measurement tools of some kind. They are about the worst sensors we have and gez even worst as we get older. If I enjoy the music, everything is fine. In second instance I am gonna rely on my dog....If he doesn't yell and run out of the room, the interfering sounds are probably within tolerances.
let us try this, give two soundsamples, , one with your cable another with a cheap one. Let it vote here and two weeks later tell us which cable was connected to which sample
You do a experiment, take your favourite track and record your hifi playing it! Then play that back over the hifi. then you decided if that’s a good representation of how your system sounds.
you have very little knowledge about sound recording and critical listening. i suggest you find one of the many tests on the web to ascertain if you can tell the diff between mp3 and cd playback. if you can spot diff then you begin to understand what danny is saying. subtle diffs appear large when you recognize them. i am certain a guy like danny can hear this way more quickly than you or i.
@@veroman007 that is correct, people with trained ears who have also listened to a lot of high end equipment can pickup many more things. But even then, there is a limitation what we can hear just because of our physiology. Many other qualified people who don't peddle fancy cables have proven there is no difference but yet Danny keeps coming back with arguments that don't prove anything - like this video.
@@veroman007 i assume you mean only Golden Ears have the knowledge to hear it and all others not ? If it so, all others do not need these fancy cables, cause they can not hear a difference. It is ok we will save a lot money
But tell me, if the radio frequencies that a speaker cable picks up matters, wouldn't you hear those in the speaker when the stereo is turned of if it mattered? Why would they suddenly be a problem when the music is playing? The signal cable on the other hand is going in to the amplifier and is amplified, so there might be a theoretical problem. What is your argument against this?
Obviously the cable nay sayer forgot about the feedback loop on all amplifier outputs !! It's the same reason why computer monitors used to all have ferrite cores wrapped around the input cable !!!
In my experiences other than the speakers themselves the capacitors have the most impact on the sound of a speaker. However I've found that certain amps respond differently to capacitors. My class D amps seem not t like the more expensive film and foil capacitors. So...I wonder how much of a difference can audio cables make? And are they worth it? I once read a review on an expensive audio cable and the reviewer didn't like the change in sound.
Does the guage actually matter? While working in car audio years ago, i had a person tell me that the guage from the amp to speaker made a difference. I did not try it back then and run the same guage ( 14 awg) through out my home theater system.
I was wondering if instead of just using songs why not use recrdings of single musical instruments. If there is such a thing of course. I can imagine that the decay on a triangle, the cavity resonance on an upright base, or even the live-ness of speaking voice would better material to distinguished the difference between cables . I would love to hear the test as I'm on the fence too. More likely bec my gear and or ear not good enough. Just my 2 cents.
I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this. Think about it for a second:
For an FM antenna, it is totally possible to pick up RF and amplify it into audible audio. That means there IS an RF signal in the audible range that can be picked up by electronics, even when you don't WANT them to.
A major reason the FCC exists is to regulate and control radio frequencies to prevent electronic feedback from crossing device domains in an unplanned / undesired fashion. So this is a real problem.
Add in power lines and noisy AC power in dense residential areas is at 60hz. This is a problem in most urban areas.
Anyone who has held a sensitive microphone near an unshielded computer will pick up EM noise in the audible range. Try it sometime, and you'll see it definitely exists.
Anyone who has ever used a Nextell or wireless communication device near sensitive speakers or amplifiers will remember the buzzing pulses of the radio signal that impact your playback devices.
I honestly believe the nay-sayers simply lack the necessary life experience to combine with their engineering knowledge to see how, even with the best shielding and filtering, you will never completely eliminate RF / EM interferance. It's a bi-product of using electricity for anything. Your best hope is to minimize it to the point where it is inaudible. That's why you use an appropriate level of filtering based on your scenario / needs.
I believe that if the cables were indeed that significant, it would have been easy to validate this hypothesis. the multiple inconclusive efforts to prove that this issue is indeed dramatic, prove the opposite - I hope to see a listening blind test instead of showing RF microvolts - all my life I am doing science and we have acceptable ways to prove or disprove an hypothesis. so lets do it
He knows he would fail a blind test. Simple as that.
I used to travel full time as a consultant and always took my Cambridge Soundworks Model 12 portable stereo with me. Many times if it was powered on, without music playing, I could hear a local FM radio channel. I made a braided cable, and it never happened again.
You can (might) hear the radio signals if you run them through an amplifier. But if you're using a passive speaker set there's no amplifiers between the speaker cable and the drivers. If your amplifier handles the noise filtering (as all good ones should) then you won't hear the noise that is picked up by the cables. I'm guessing that the cable you're talking about was the input cable to the amplifier.
Thank you Danny for accepting this challenge. Regardless of the result, it will have been an educative experience for all.
Please do share the blind test video. I'm open to change my opinion. 👍🏻
OK, so unshielded, untwisted pairs of copper act as an antenna and detect high frequency RFI / REIN (Radio-electrical injection noise).
Fine.
At what magnitude? Several volts at several amps?
No. Typical radio signal receiption levels - which isn't enough to power a fart.
Are any of these frequencies replicable by an actual speaker driver unit?
No.
Even if they were, are they audible?
No.
These aren't the issues to focus on.
What you need to focus on is the impedance introduced by a cable, and the impedance curve of the speaker across the audible frequency spectrum.
E.g. my front speakers drop as low as 1.1 Ohms at certain points on the audible frequency spectrum despite being rated at "8 Ohms".
Therefore, in order for transients to be handled accurately with all the attack, subtlety, and nuances, it's imperitave that my cables are impedance matched (e.g. not wildly different lengths to one another), and that my cables have an intrinsicly very low impediance, which is why I bi-amp my front speakers with four core 4MM (12AWG) cable, which has an imedance of 4.6 Ohm / KM (0.0014 Ohm / foot). That's all that's required to ensure that the speakers get exactly what your amp presents to them through all rapid-transients and low-impedance events. Thinner cable would introduce voltage sag under high current / low impedance loads and the impact of attack / subtleties would be lost.
QED Performance Micro cable, for example, has an impedance of 29 Ohms / KM vs. Vandamme Black Tour Grade 4mm cable having said impedance of 4.6 Ohm / KM. This is the really important characteristic to look out for when choosing cable.
If you're going to do a listening test, it needs to be a blind test, and there needs to be one or two instances throughout the test where your hired help tells you he has changed the cable, but in fact hasn't, to fully rule out any imagined changes or psychosomatic / placebo effect.
So what's the best size and design?
try one. if you dont like it, send it back. till you listen, you cant comment. numbers are only 1/2 the game.
The sad truth is that he likely konws that, if he knows anything about electronics, but chooses to pull a hoodwink on his audience.
FM radio signals picked by such an antenna would be at best a few micro-volts (assuming a very high impedance receiving circuit). Not even a microwatt of power available, the only thing that Danny properly hinted _"[otherwise] we would be using it. It would be wireless power transmission"_
A tower speaker requires volts to be driven, and several watts. I.e. a factor of > 1.000.000 (120dB) over whatever RFI the speaker cable might get over the air. And like izools wrote, it'd be in the MHz+ range anyway, outside of the amp/speaker's pass band.
That's one reason why audio systems use shielded cables btwn source & pre-amp / amp: bc it is a high impedance & low signal connection. So RFI noise might be picked up as faint noise if these circuits do not properly low pass filter above the audio freq range. But hell no on the amp-speaker connect.
Unfortunately most people in his audience don't know better, so they end up looking up to the guy who speaks with authority with FR plots in his hand, not knowing he sometimes peddles false technical arguments to sell his products.
I did a blind listening test years ago by a famous mastering engineer who was very skeptical i could hear differences in interconnects and i got it right 10 out of 10 times. And this was also changing the direction of a certain cable.
Here is a specific question.
At what RF ambient field strength (in Volts per meter) do you start to need special cables? Obviously at zero you don’t need anything special, so how do you determine that? Have you measured rooms? Do you have any method to advise your flock who does and doesn’t need special treatment? Or do you just tell everyone to spend a bunch of money whether they need it or not?
Also, the wires INSIDE you speakers have no special treatment...what do we do about that gigantic unacceptable exposure?
@@paulcs2607 science and engineering gave you the freaking means to be able to enjoy recorded performances again and again you numbskull.
Isn't there a box around the wires ?
@@paulcs2607 You don’t like it when your hand waving heroes get exposed as utterly incompetent. The question I asked is entirely relevant.
@@paulcs2607 haha... Yeah sure
@@paulcs2607 utter bullshit designed to attempt to retain credibility. What you will not ever do is bring your arguments into the ASR community, which is packed full with people who have done extensive listening, scientists who know how the human ear can be fooled because they have proved it.
YOU reject science, because if you even hinted at accepted it, virtually everything you espouse would be revealed as utter manipulative nonsense.
If you so the speaker cable comparison. Then maybe make sure that they are measured or equal somehow (see below).
Because if you plow down a lot of time and effort into this.
Then it is not so useful if the measurements guys say "yes of course you hear a difference because the cables are of different lengths/resistance/gauge/capacitance/material.
May I suggest that you take your nice speaker cable that is braided.
Cut 4 equal lengths of them (when they are still braided).
Un-braid two of them and make them straight. (The braid is the noise cancelation anyway)
Now you have two pairs/sets of speaker wires that has the same length/gauge/resistance/material/dielectric. One pair braided and a pair unbraided.
If you can make 10 of 10 with those two pairs of speaker wires. Then the measurements guys has can't argue against anything.
Otherwise we will be in this blaming game in infinity 😅
That is NOT necessary. A test between ofc 12 ga wire to any other wire is all thats needed. Since no one has ever passed a double blind test, many were made with cheap 12 ga and expensive wire to hopefully be able to tell a difference. I say use high dollar fantastic wire vs cheap 12 ga. But the test needs to be pretty well controlled.
It's been a month, and we're still waiting for that test.
@Jeroen Shouldn't take that long.
Jeroen word is he failed the test so he’s still trying to get above 50%
@@mundie33 😂 That wouldn't surprise me!
Yeah just use Romex or tinfoil
You better pick up a good sofa. It's gonna be a long wait
Being a general flat earther, I have to say there is a reason for this flat earth concept. The reason is that in double blind testing (over 10,000 tests at least), no one has been able to correctly determine which cable was which. Now, that does NOT mean that if someone does a real test where levels are matched and the listener has no idea which cable is which, but they get the pick right one 75% of the time, then I will be the first to say that this person did it!. The problem is no one has been able to do it so far. So, if it happens, then it will be a HUGE, MAJOR advance in cable testing. Thousands of tests have been done with listeners who claimed they could EASILY tell the difference with NO PROBLEM at all. Then the "deer in the headlights" look after the tests as they found out they were not even doing as good as flipping a coin. The problem was they had never done a double blind test. They had done A/B tests with massive confirmation bias and convinced themselves they could EASILY tell. So, no one has been able to tell before but that doesn't mean it will never happen in the future. All that needs to happen is have the levels matched and then do not allow the listener to see the switcher or know which he is listening too. You can't have the switcher wander out from behind the curtain after he switches. He has to keep totally silent and non-visible. Also, no sounds of the switcher hefting a huge cable up for the switch. I can actually with a few visual or listening clues easily have someone be wrong 100% of the time. But anyone watching would not understand how I did it as they do not know what to look for. I suggest 20 switches and if anyone gets 14 right, that would really be that cats meow. Good Luck and I'm very interested in how this comes out for you.
Seems to me that the flat earthers in this scenario are the cable believers. They are going by faith alone while the rest of us use evidence.
@Baz Wow, you like your own jokes. Good for you!
@Baz There’s no analogy there. Take your own advice.
Just a quick lesson: The “analogy” was suggested by Danny. He calls people who trust only empirical evidence flat earthers. I simply suggested it was the reverse. Your issue is with the OP - Danny. And it’s a simile, not an analogy. And you’re a jerk and fanboy. Oh, and a troll.
Take this for what it's worth. I had noise in my tweeter from a few inches away. Nothing crazy. Did Danny's point to point crossover upgrade. No more noise. I mean, zero. The hypex amp modules have a really low noise floor, and the quality of the components in the crossover upgrade removed a lot of useless metals from the signal path.
I don't take this to the extreme and shell out tons of money, but I have had problems with noise, and have had to entirely redo my system.
Things you wouldn't expect, like 12v trigger cables, can bring unwanted noise to your system.
Personally, I'm a member of both forums, and have found great help on both forums. ASR helped me choose and build the right amp for me, and without audiocircles, I'd probably still be working on that damn crossover. Did my center. Can't wait to do the mains. Especially with mine in particular. Not sure what klipsch was thinking with a 10db dip in the midband
I have a basic system and recently replaced my speakers with new ones. And as you should do was messing with the placement and trimmed the ends of the speaker cables and checked all the connections for tightness after prob 5-6 years since last check. The speaker binding posts have a different arrangement for the connecting bars between the lower an high freq sections, (they are internal). I set them to open and replaced them with jumper cables made from the same cable as my speaker cable.
I noticed a difference, whilst messing around my wife had sat down and was on her phone not paying attention as I was back and forward a/b the jumper cables, she asked me what I had done as it sounded a better. I told her I was just listening to the lyrics of that particular song and continued to A/B between them playing the same track and she was distracted from her phone by the difference and told me when it was better sounding!! i.e.as soon as the jumpers were back in.
I then played two other tracks with them in and then removed them and played the two tracks again, she asked me if I had done anything to the stereo as it was sounding better before!!! I then told her what I had been doing, she said I thought something was going on with her ears.
either way for your self.
Audiophiles are super humans with the power of super hearing but like
all super heroes, they have one weakness..their super hearing goes away
the moment their vision is blocked
Apparently so are photographers who can distinguish a good versus a bad print (color, contrast, exposure not to mention composition)
@@JustBrowsing777 Ugh??!?
@@parasitelights3158 Only a photographer would understand the analogy I guess. An untrained eye can look at a photograph/print and think it's just fine. A trained eye can see all the imperfections. I think the same can be applied to audio. My wife wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a crap audio file playing versus a lossless one. Doesn't mean there is no difference, she just can't tell. With that being said I think there is a ton of snake oil in the audio industry including most cables.
@@JustBrowsing777 I completely understand what you mean - I don't understand what the connection is with the first post and not to mention how bad your comparison is. You have to be very visually impaired so that you can't tell the difference between good and bad printing. For example, I have worked professionally with printing for about 10 years and from day one, without any previous experience it was quite obvious to me what is good and what is bad printing, given that I have vision problems and have never been professionally engaged in photography. And as far as I remember, of all my colleagues, there was only one that I saw carrying a serious camera from time to time. On the other hand, audio is completely subjective - different people hear and like completely different things. Again, I point my self as an example, but for all my life I've heard the bats without any problem, including to this day when I'm approaching 50's and at the beginning I was thinking that this is the norm, but I do not know anyone who hears them. In the high audio classes is a completely different situation and in 99,9% of cases it is a matter of habit. The moment you listen seriously to a system that at first seemed incredible for several months, you hear all the problems and think about upgrading. The same goes for audio formats. And when you fall into this bottomless pit for couple years, at one point you no longer need a few months but a few seconds to hear the difference. But wherever we look at it, you only can hear the difference between a $ 30 and $ 3000 per meter cable only if you've seen it first.
@@parasitelights3158 I guess we just don't agree fullly here then which is fine. My first response to the initial post was meant with slight sarcasm.
I have also worked professionally with printing, Photoshop and photography hence my reference. In my experience a majority of ordinary people who hand in their photos to be printed cannot see if a print is perfect or just bland (unless they have 2 or more versions to compare. Even then...). Not referring to professionals or enthusiasts of course.
13:20 - I am very excited to hear that you'll do a blind test video. I know that double blind gets a ton of promotion, but I think a good blind test is all anyone really needs. Just like the guys on the hyper-objective side say sometimes, as long as you're not getting feedback from the person or object that does the switching, that's all you really need. Double blind is just a way to make sure there are no hints. I get double blind, but I think it's really over hyped. The only need is to cut of peripheral communication from the tester and the subject.
I do still think that if we can hear something and identify it, we should also be able to articulate what that is and quantify it. If we can quantify it, we can get an objective measurement with an inanimate object that is much much more sensitive than a human.
Why do people think that if you can't measure it you can't hear it, that's an assumption I have a problem with. Wire has electrical properties, of course they make a difference. Good, bad, better, that's all subjective. I've compared two sets of audio interconnects, both 1 meter, 1 tara labs, 1 transparent, and you didn't need a blind test, it was that apparrent. I can understand if you have to keep switching back and forth but this was 1 switch. Can't say one was better but definately different. Now the law of diminishing returns really comes in to play with audio gear, big time!
You know how sound works don't you? Something must cause vibrations in the air, enough for it to reach your ears. If it can be heard, it can be recorded and it can be measured.
So, record the spectrum of a sound played with one cable, record it played with another cable, compare the two spectrums.
Why do people, especially older males, think their ears are as accurate as scientific equipment? You probably wear glasses if you're a bit older because eyes, like ears, deteriorate over the years.
You say wire has electrical properties. That’s true. Do you believe these properties are unmeasurable? That can’t be true because you claim that your ears can detect the difference. Therefore it is measurable, and that means you are claiming that your ears are more sensitive instruments than electronics that can detect distortion down to -135 decibels. Do you REALLY stand behind that?
@@plcamp1 , I don't believe that the sense of space and sound staging can be measured. There's more to the sound than just freq. response and such. I've sat and listened to a piece of music then made a change and suddenly it was like the wall behind the speakers was removed, so yes I do believe in science but science isn't the all of it.
@@captainwin6333 , I don't believe that the sense of space and sound staging can be measured. There's more to the sound than just freq. response and such. I've sat and listened to a piece of music then made a change and suddenly it was like the wall behind the speakers was removed, so yes I do believe in science but science isn't the all of it.
Hey Danny ,, you don’t have to prove nothing to me,, i have been a professional masking engineer for over 30 years ,,and I use your cable in my professional mastering set up,,and it does make a difference,,,... and as a result ,,my mixes are better... just let the people in the know enjoy ,, and the haters.. can stay in the dark..eat his flat...lol
I'm a long time audio engineer and have my own studio now. Cables can clearly make a difference and there's no question of it, the differences can be quite large. But we cannot measure why we hear the difference. This offends those who beleive our current knowledge is endless and we know everything, but I learnt to make my peace with this 30 years ago, cause theres no point in denying what's right in front of you, and some of the best professional audio engineers, and some of the best equipment designers, will happily admit to chosing some components by ear, as they cannot measure a difference to explain the sonic differences they hear.
Waiting for a scrap of science. Still waiting!
Make sure the impedance of the two cables match. Everyone knows the lower impedance will play slightly louder and sound "better". You don't have to prove that. You can get Audtek 10 AWG for about 80 cents a foot. That should get you close. To check, you will have to play white noise through both cables and show matching SPL. Use a good SPL meter and document what the model was and what was the reading. It would be great to measure both of your cables for their properties also. I am sure Amir would measure them for free with his top of the line equipment and give you a fast turn around. This doesn't have to be adversarial. Danny, If you don't do a properly setup and documented test, you will walk away saying you proved your critics wrong and your critics will say you didn't prove anything and those of us in the peanut gallery will just throw up their hands in frustration.
He who has the better equipment wins - wait but I thought you can't measure cables?
I think there are other factors of a cable and its connectors that make a bigger difference in the sound of cables. I am not an electrical engineer but it seems to me a cable is essentially a large capacitor. It has resistance, capacitance and resistance, varying any of these parameters will effect sound. There is also metallurgy. Silver sounds different than copper and down the line.
Not only does different size conductors make a difference in sound so does how its configured or braided. The dielectric has a huge effect as well. So there are a number of aspects of cable design that effects sound quality.
Looking forward to this demonstration!
I will have to take your word on this, just like I take the word of the people who have proved the earth is round. Standing on the earth, I can’t see the curvature, but that doesn’t prove it is flat. Doing a listening test with the ringing I have in my ears that smears everything together as it is, will be fruitless. But, because I can’t (maybe can’t) hear a difference with cables doesn’t prove cables don’t make a difference. Looking forward to your up coming video and I will do cables, just because I am hearing such a huge improvement in sound quality with the X-MTMs I just finished and maybe cables might step that up a bit for someone else to hear, if not me... Thanks for your technical audiophile expertise.
You actually can see the curvature of the Earth with your own eyes, you just need a large enough body of water and a clear day.
The horizon you see would be different if the Earth was flat.
Aside from that, there is the classic ship appearing on the horizon proof.
If the Earth was flat, ships would never appear or disappear from the horizon, they would only get bigger or smaller.
In reality, ships look like they are sinking as the move over the horizon because of the curvature of the Earth.
The double blind test would be easily accomplished...
1. Listener is blind. (Obviously)
2. The person interacting with the listener is not actually doing the switching expect to tell a third individual "A or B", not knowing which cable is labeled A/B.
3. The third individual would be the one physically switching the actual cables out. Out of sight of the other two participants.
Then 1 & 2 could not impart biased based upon apriori positions or be accused of leading the listener in any fashion.
The larger and more varied knowledge of audiophile listening techs of the sample size (number of listeners) the more reliable the results.
Perhaps teaching someone who is not an audio person but is simply willing to allow you to teach them what to listen for, as you explained doing for your employees and seeing if they could get to a point of blindly picking out the difference between cables at a rate greater than that of chance?
That is not required if you control the switcher and the listener. I laid out the procedure in other posts.
Talking in circles is an art. Well done Leonardo.
Borrow mics from Ron from NRD. He was able to pic up the sound differences when he came to your listening room for the speaker comparison.
It'll never translate through TH-cams encoding and compression. But measurements will.
Great Idea, I second this. A while back Ron did an A B comparison of the Klipsch RP600M stock vs GR-Research upgraded crossover. With headphones, I could tell the difference, even though the youtube compression.
Tyler Smith crossovers sure but not speaker cables
When flat Earthers actually do the science properly they prove themselves wrong, it's funny to watch.
Like when they try to use a laser to prove that the earth is flat hahaha
I can't find any of these videos. Got some links?
That power supplies all have filtering is based on how powersupplies actually works not really to filter incoming noise. That beeing said most soundgear uses a transformer that electrically seperates the incoming power to what goes into your amp, is then chopped up and filtered. So its quite questionable how much cld possibly make it inside an amp. But its hard to prove 100% that nothing makes it in, and possibly depends how noisy your electrical system is.
raises an interesting question on how to measure soundstage so we have another metric to quantify speakers as well as all these part upgrades. BTW that is amir from audiosciencereview and sometimes he goes too far on the measurements but he does post these measurements online which are generally helpful.
Respect for trying educate those who do not want to be educated. Every semi decent gear will be sensitive enough to translate benefits of addressing noise and interference issues by use of proper cables. But if someone has basic stereo with not yet addressed weak links might not hear the benefits. And here I think is the problem. To put is simply, people do not have good enough gear (or trained ears) to pick up benefits and build their opinion on that.
Double blind testing is overkill. Single blind testing is adequate as long as the facilitator is unbiased.
Yeah and Amir said he would be happy to see single blind testing in a video recently
@@jules153 Amir should do it himself
I agree but if its single blind there can be no talking and no visual interaction between the listener and the switcher. Small insignificant visual or sound cues that neither the listener or the switcher even knows is happening can radically skew the results.
@@MrDannydjmix2 Amir does not do alot of things he claims that others should do.
I watch his vids, and read his blog anyway since he is extremely knowledgeable.
@@joshua43214 not so extremely knowledgeable tho but he definitely knows alot and i still think his a lil ignorant, well his still a nice guy tho and he definitely means well is just that things got a little too contented on his side
Amazes me all the negative comments. Just like flat earthers, nothing will convince them. Single blind, double even triple blind wont matter to them. Truth is it doesn’t make much cents to put hundred$ in cables on a $199 box store stereo, which is what most ppl listen to.
Thats true you cant cure even 1 shitty element in a setup with all the best cables in the world. But if you know whats good you could improve even a budget setup if all parts r good. (Like with this channels small but good bookshelf speakers compared to big awesome 3-way setups for example)
This.
There is a wire out there called Champlain. I would love to hear if it can used in a system considering its properties, even though it is a wire I use in a Motor Control Center. A 14 gauge wire is rated at 40 amps. It is silver coated copper with a silicone insulation
Double blind could be achieved with two switching boxes with relays or something. Either stick to manual switching and try to hide the cables some other way or make it computer controlled so you can add randomness
It doesn't work that way. Each cable has to be disconnected from the speaker to not effect the signal.
@@dannyrichie9743 that’s why I say use a relay so the connection is severed (at both ends)
But the connection could be severed without a relay just using any analog switch tbh. I say two switches so you can switch at the amp side and the speaker side.
@@ar_xiv You'd have to have a relay at the speaker end also and then there would be another set of cables from the relay tot he speaker that would have to be common. That would not work. And none of that is necessary. Blindfolding the listener is pretty easy, and it makes no difference who or what does the switching.
@@dannyrichie9743 ehh I disagree I don’t see a big problem but whatever
One thing has surely been proven - that a good portion of Danny’s viewers are willing to shell out for fancy cables.
I’m not really a part of the argument or I guess the better way to phrase it would be the discussion that you were having back-and-forth with the people in this forum because that’s not a group I’m part of… In fact I haven’t even seen the gentleman’s videos that you refer to; however I will stand up for this one fact because it is a concept with that I’m familiar with. When you transmit radio frequency waves into an antenna, you apply power to that point source and it can be interpreted as a voltage and an impedance and therefore you can determine the power. I you can look at the distance from that point source And use mathematics or measurement equipment to determine the field strength either by experimental means or calculation depending on what you’d like to do. I have very expensive test equipment that I can go out with and measure FM Field strength or for that matter AM field strength and its reasonably repeatable. The measurements that I am taking are actually doing exactly what you said, they are showing the voltage being induced from an antenna into an selective receiver on my end when I’m out in the field taking these measurements. And yes as you say they are quite small when you’re far from the source, a lot of times just on the level of microvolts… But if you’re close to the source, like an FM tower for a radio station they could be as much as 10 V depending on certain factors… Certainly if you were measuring AM field strength And you were near I 10 or even a 50 kW station… You could easily have 10 V of reception on an antenna that we’re just sitting there if it were the right length of wire.
And .7 v as you know is more than easily audible (quite loud actually. )
So yes you can induce voltage across miles of gap using RF… That’s just in the laws of physics.
I can't see what the problem is. If you buy the cables and they don't make a difference then send them back and Danny will refund your money. If they do make a difference and the difference is worth the money..... keep them. Its not rocket science.
drops mic
Really looking forward to the blind test video...
I think that in order to hear such differences everything else in your system should very, very good - source, dac, amp, speakers. Even more importantly - your room should be acoustically treated (like the one in which Dany is doing this). In normal not treated living room, with moderate class electronics and speakers, which would be like 99% of people :) Even with very good system but in normal room, I don't think you will hear any kind of difference. I am not saying that the audiophile cables are snake oil, but they are very close to it :)
Great observations and information. Thanks!
I changed my POWER cable, and my computer runs A LOT faster
I added 3 feets of 3 gauge braided power cable to my 75 feets of 14/2 romex and now I can hear that Nirvana's albums sounded like shit.... Hahaha just kidding
The moment when you realize you're going to have to game the blind listening test in order to not make a fool of yourself is going to be priceless. Film that.
It has been a week since this "challenge" was accepted... I don't expect to hear much of a difference over youtube - but with what Danny says, I do expect a group of people (3 to 5) to absolutely identify cable 1 or 2 with close to 80% or higher accuracy.... But, it's been a week....
I don't know what to say. Even I was a non believer till I heard for myself. If you can't hear the difference it might be because your gear/setup may have all kinds of noise. Speak wire isn't enough to solve the issue. I will say don't listen to a proper setup. One you hear the difference you can't unhear it.
@@mrmatthewpaul I guess it's a great thing that neither you or any other human being can hear a difference when proper listening controls are used! I recommend less TH-cam bro science and more AES reading.
Thanks Danny for sharing decades of experience. Your DIY cables are extremely modestly priced. I have no doubt you can tell the difference between zip cord and yours 10/10, 100/100. Human hearing is highly developed, because survival depends on it. Able to discern the presence and location of a stalking predator, while masked by ambient noise. Extraordinary processing. Not only amplitude and phase, but higher processing with memory recognition and cortical analysis. Danny has finely tuned his "hearing" over the years.
Why everyone always compare with the worst cable ever made to made their points? Use a "good" no nonsense cable as a basis. I think a good insulated cable can reject hum and others parasites, but after that its just subjective. Don't forget that everything you hear is measurable. If you do not agree... I can't do nothing for you, because you became the flat earther is this story.
Any update?
This is getting interesting, way to go Danny!
I'm half Italian and half German. My Earth looks like a square lasagna!
F*ck
Hey as long as you happy and not cause some else grief. Go be happy...
Hey! Thanks for doing this. I do trust you"re going to do your best to be honest.
Can you do me a favor? Please randomize your switching. Going from A to B in strict alternation can lead to a false distinction. Just use a phone app for rolling dice or generating random numbers. If it's even, use A, otherwise use B.
Measurements should back up what you hear, not the other way around.
Countless times scientists have measured something that doesn't back up an experience, just to find years, decades later that they had to measure something else, or they've discovered new things and theories that can finally explain the experience. I don't know why it's so difficult for some people to accept that science isn't "done" at any time and it's always evolving...
What bullshit is this? If I see a fata morgana in the desert, the measurements need to back up the oasis I’m seeing (I know, cliché) is actually there but if from those measurements it turns out something else is tricking my brain, we should just to denounce science and trust our senses?
@@TofumanFC3S No just don't trust measurements.
Totally agree science is a moving target. The world is not round or a sphere, it is an approximation of one.
@Douglas Blake Every piece of my audio equipment is produced by companies that design and develop their equipment by ear. We don't need more Julian Hirschs. Subjective audio reviewing is defensible because I want something to sound good not measure good. I don't enjoy music more knowing the distortion is .0003% and the noise floor is -90dB. When I have someone over to listen I don't run off the specs to impress them, I just let them listen.
@@TofumanFC3S I didn't say measurements are not important or that our senses are flawless.
I'll give you a counter example: a while back we didn't used to discuss jitter. Some folk claimed to experience something off with digital playback equipment but they couldn't explain it at the time. Later science proved jitter was associated with what they were experiencing.
With that said, don't you find it possible that we're not measuring the right thing to describe these differences that some people claim to hear?
Like for instance, how do you currently measure soundstage differences with any known measuring equipment?
Regarding your workmates listening with you, you described well the important task of learning to listen critically and learning what to listen for, this may account for a great deal of the false belief that cables don't effect the sound. We have to train our ears over a long period of time doing critical listening tests before we begin to hone in on what the differences are. And of course we must have a system that is sufficiently resolving in order to hear these differences. I will do a future video myself on how to do A-B listening tests and all the necessary criteria involved. You really are on top of this, and I am learning alot from you, wished I lived in TX and could come visit, keep up the great work.
He also described the placebo effect perfectly. Of course there are many instances where a professional will pick up on things which someone inexperienced will completely miss. But it's also widely demonstrated that people will also experience what they expect to happen.
@@andys844 The placebo effect can easily be managed by making a conscious effort to avoid it, as well as by various strategies that help to minimize it, such as having several listeners present, setting your mind on the positives of either outcome (one gets me a better sounding system, the other saves me spending money on the new equipment), repeated listening tests, comparing three or more alternative products, including a low budget product among the options that will clearly present a difference, and there are a few others.
@@SpeakerBuilder I'd argue that in the case of speakers, the placebo effect is quite hard to manage. Having several listeners present can present it's own problems. Multiple experiments have shown people are often swayed by those they deem more knowledgeable or the group's idea (juries are prone to this). Focusing on the positives of both outcomes doesn't really mitigate the placebo. It's more of a cost-benefit analysis and isn't really applicable to deciding which sounds better/clearer etc. The listener should have no knowledge of price or other qualities, like what the product benefits are supposed to be while conducting the test. This is incredibly hard to do with experienced listeners because they will likely know the equipment beforehand. Yes, having more than an A/B choice does provide a more reliable outcome but in practice is can be very hard to achieve. For example, doing a speaker comparison. You might compare three speakers, but we know that placement can be critical to the sound you hear, so how do you compare them against one another in a blind way and maintain their placement and not give away to the listener which speaker is playing and not interfere with the sound in other ways like covering it with another material. Testing speaker cables should be feasible though. A black box of contactors can be used to switch between various cables and record which is active at anytime. It should be possible to design the black boxes in such a way that it's not clear which cable has been selected by listening to the connections being made of timing the changeover.
It's a weird subject for sure. Anyone who suggests that there is a difference in cables gets berated by the anti-cable group. The "anti-cablers" do no testing themselves, and just parrot that there are no differences. I bought some high-end speaker cables before because I clearly heard a difference. (Tara Labs Air 1) The most vocal attacking person to me, was a guy (who after threatening me, I then found online), who lived with his parents, and was coming up on his one-year anniversary at his first job at Best Buy. His system consisted of the lowest end model of Def Tech tower that they made, and a basic receiver. My point is, that the people who are most vocal about cables not making a difference, usually have zero experience with real Hi-Fi. They don't own it, and they've likely never heard it. A high-resolution system is mandatory.
It should be possible to use one cable, record the output, change the cables, record the output and use a bit of software to compare the two outputs. The old reverse the signal trick then switch the signal around and see what's different.
Equipment can be calibrated, ears can't.
I'm not trusting my ears, your ears or anyone elses ears.
This "flat earthers" stuff is just condescending. People hear things in different ways, science knows this so to proclaim your ears are right and other people's are wrong is kind of anti-the-science of hearing as we know it.
Yanny or Laurel was a prime example where roughly 50% heard one and the other half heard the other.
That's, in part, down to the perfectly natural deterioration of our hearing as we age. I don't want to sound cheeky but you're a bit older, like me, and you're male. Both of these mean your hearing has deteriorated to a degree. Male's lose more higher frequencies than female's for any given age. It's no different to that other pair of sensory organs on your head - the eyes. Eyesight fades with age but the difference there is it can be corrected with lenses. Hearing cannot be corrected and we cannot get back the frequencies we've lost since our teenage years.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanny_or_Laurel
even if we hear things differently if a speaker sounds natural to you it probably sounds natural to everyone else considering that u and everyone else hears nature that is the same even if u hear it different
Exactly what i want. After that i have to accept the results
@@nicoras8803 not the same, i mean we all listen to the same sounds of nature that even if we hear differently we all recognize it
@@iowaudioreviews Your just not aware.
Many of the greatest audio designers will admit they have to pick some components by ear as they cannot measure the difference they can hear. Science should never dictate what you can observe as science is simply our best explanation of an observation, it can never dictate what can be observed (or you'd believe that bumble bees cant fly, or that all amplifiers operating within design limits sound the same.)
Show me a machine that can pick up on a violent 'vibe' when you enter a room or will accurately determine an emotion from looking at a human face (robots are getting better, but still cant match humans.)
Your belief that we know everything and that everything is quantifiable flies in the face of real experience and shows that far from being a bastion of reason, your intellect is stunted and limited to current knowledge. Thank god the human race still has some creative thinkers.....
@@titntin5178 Or subjective thinkers. Many scientists and engineers are creative thinkers...
You have the heart of a teacher. Thanks Danny. Belden Cable manufactures all types of cables. They use different recipes for sensitive communications, video cables, etc. All cables are not just the same plain recipe which they would be if signal transfer was not compromised!
Yes, Belden makes cables for the specific use cases based on the measured requirements of that category.
For some reason however they don’t produce for the case of: “I’m a child of Krypton, half-god blessed with super hearing and need 1000 dollar a foot specialty cables to enjoy variation in music not even the most precise equipment can distinguish!”
I wonder why that is?
I may or may not agree with your methods involving cables, but I do admire and appreciate your diplomatic, and elegant way of addressing the subject related to the ones presented by the other 'guys.'
If you plug an antenna directly into a speaker, then obviously you aren't going to hear anything!
The same is true for cables that act as antennas, if they are plugged directly into a speaker you will not hear the RF noise they pick up.
The story can be different if the antenna is plugged into an amplifier.
that is what an amplifier does, it amplifies, both music and noise.
If you have an antenna, an amplifier and a speaker then you are most of the way to a radio!
If you are using an AVR and you are using a digital signal to get music to it, then you probably don't have to worry about this.
But for an analogue source, this could be a problem.
The other thing is electromagnetic interference, this can definitely be a problem even for cables that plug into speakers.
But, you don't need special cables to solve it, just don't have cables running right next to each other in parallel.
Electromagnetic noise loses power as it travels and spreads out, every additional inch you have from the source of the interference will reduce the noise drastically.
Make sure there is plenty of space between any speaker cable and any other cable running parallel to it.
If that is not possible, if you have no choice but to run cables close to each other, then you might need a better cable to make up for it.
Also, it is possible to hear the difference between cables even if there isn't any interference on them.
Different cables can have a different capacitance and impedance, so there can be a slight differences between them even if there is no noise to worry about.
Would be nice if the engineers that develop the equipment were aware of this... Oh wait!
And why don’t you go ahead and show how the tiny variations in properties between to adequate cables produce ANY variation anywhere near the audible spectrum. Now that would be a scientific break through! Go for it, I’ll wait.
"But, you don't need special cables to solve it, just don't have cables running right next to each other in parallel" - funny how that got glossed over.
Actually wireless transmission of power has been around since the late 1800’s when Nicola Tesla invented the Tesla coil. Tesla could hold a lightbulb in his hand on the top of a mountain in Colorado and it would light up without any wires from a power source miles away. Also when I make Tesla bifilar coils to wirelessly transfer power through induction I use high grade copper speaker cable from Amazon! :)
Could you provide a link to info about Colorado mountaintop experiment? Thank you
A very informative video, love it! like most of your guidance videos, thank you
I agree mostly. But people have to get it in their heads that blind testing cannot be performed without altering the results partially.
Meaning that, you are only getting a fraction of the thing you are testing.
1. Because you need to let a cable settle for a while, for it to fully react which takes some time.
2. And it involves turning stuff on/off which changes the sound. (devices)
3. And when testing powercables, stuff like correct phase most times does not get corrected by most testers, making it invalid.
4. Plus when you record something and send it via a device to youtube, it only captures 1/10 of sound, then compresses it, and then the listener has to listen to it via an inferior system normally, because you have to use youtube.
Plus many other things I mention on my channel.
But still, you can hear a difference most of the time, just not a huge difference compared to when you follow all the factors that can play in.
And when you do that, then you are anyway not doing a blind test because hours have to pass before a cable stops vibrating.
Most people don't realise that it takes hours for a newly connected cables to settle. (this in itself kind of invalidates a blind test, because that means that you are adding energy to some part of the sound, which could be good or bad)
It's a bit like quantum physics, as soon as you begin to observe something, then immediately you are corrupting the results, making the results only half valid.
So in the end, best thing you can do is follow my check list and trust your feelings, and don't test in such a short period using standard methods.
But I mostly agree with GR-Research with about most things he says. And his products look solid, and just the flow of the guy makes you really sense that he is very in tune with himself and audio. So I don't need all of this science stuff to prove that it is real, the guys indicators on his face tells the truth.
What a load of BS. All pseudo science.
@@StewartMarkley Cute. At least you tried.
Please do this. And maybe incorporate more than 2 cables. Maybe 5...but at least 3. And switch 20 times random. I look forward to seeing it. And is it really worth the dif in price? It would be great to get the best wire for 100-200$ (6-10ft)... and compare this midrange set to high end
Is the blind listening test video up yet?
I remember in high school, while listening to the then hi fi level system in the band room, we would occasionally be treated to the CB chatter from the trucks going by outside.
No no no of course humans can't hear rf
Yes if you have a wireless system - a microphone for example. Haven't you watched Spinaltap?
@@parasitelights3158 lol….I’m talking 1972, before anything “wireless”
@@robertdiffin9136 Come on, mate, you can't contradict yourself so dramatically in two consecutive posts. Truck drivers had wireless communication but at the same time wireless technology was not invented? The first patent for a wireless microphone is from 1957 and the first studio wireless microphone has been on the market since 1953 - Shure Vagabond 88. By 1972, wireless studio equipment was already old school. Just because you didn't understand what technology you had while playing in the school studio doesn't mean that the same technology hasn't existed for decades. The only way to hear a radio signal is with a radio decoder. In the 1960s, all pretentious bands was used wireless on a large scale, and truck drivers were widely heard during their live shows.
@@parasitelights3158 you are absolutely correct. My implication - poorly worded (and poorly researched) - was we were not using any wireless mics (which I have learned were in use by then). The truckers chatter would be picked up while the system was playing vinyl records on a Thorens turntable through a Sherwood S5500 tube amp into some large wall mounted Wharfedale W70D’s.
Was the phono cartridge picking it up? A ground wire, the speaker wires?
You do realize that by going down this rabbit hole, you've alienated a big customer base for all that other stuff you sell. The only thing I can say is the profit margin must be really good for those speaker cables. We all know that big fat OFC cable is better than little dinky zip cord but everything beyond that is smoke a mirrors. I'm really amazed you can hear it. Are you really sure?
My customers have been asking for this information and for good quality high end cables at low price points. And we have gained a ton of new customers from doing this. Sales are up greatly across the board. And we are getting repeat from cable sales. They have been a smash hit.
well there is a problem here, the result of an objective scientific test is only as good as its design, in your case, you are the subject, the results has to be obtained by a impartial examiner/s. in your case the only option is to do it by 2 examiners working at the same time, both proficient in sound theory and the equipment used, one should be Amir and the other a friend of yours, then if you succeed you will have my most deep eternal admiration
well but probably Amir isn't open minded enough to do that, i really dare him to go there and do exactly what u said! on the other hand i believe his a good guy and I'm sure he means well but at least try ones on a good system
@@nicoras8803 well he does know what hes talking about but i don't think anyone knows everything about anything so..
Single Blind testing is good enough, for this purpose. The idea behind double blind is that you further reduce bias, by removing the bias of the person doing the A/B switching, as well as the listener. It has been found, that the person doing the switching could POSSIBLY influence the listener. But, I see where you're coming from; double blind is just not practical, here.
Also, as fan of both youtube channels, I'm not sure you're giving Amir from Audio Science Review a totally fair shake. You should check out his credentials, he's not just some bum trying to operate an Audio Precision analyzer. Also not sure if you missed it, but in every video there is a section about the listening portion of the testing, where he gives his impressions.
When it comes to the Audio Science Review forum, that is a different matter. There are all sorts of folks that post there, and they all have varying opinions and expertise (or lack there of). Some of those folks want to measure without listening.
Sometimes, though, as we have seen with crossover design: if you can see a dip in the frequency response where two woofers don't play together, do you really need to listen to know it won't sound very good? That being said, measurements will not tell you how something sounds, it will just draw your attention to errors and design flaws. However I don't know anyone serious who claims the contrary, so that argument is a bit of a red herring. Specifically Amir, does not claim this.
My own 2 cents: I have heard a difference when replacing standard zip cord, sloppily attached directly to the binding posts, with 6 9's copper, insulated with non ferro-magnetic spades, but I'm not sure if I was testing the cable per se or the connecters. The nicer cable was not really that expensive, however.
I am with you on all of that. One thing I would note though. While Amir does do some listening to a speaker he tests, he only listens to one speaker. So he really isn't hearing what is brought to the table. He listened to one of our X-LS Encore speakers. It was a base level model. He liked it and recommended it. But he never really listened to a pair of them.
@Douglas Blake Right, my point was that it's impossible to know what caused any change when you alter multiple variables at once.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'm not trying to say anyone preaches the gospel. Over on his channel I had to point out that, you're not telling people they need to spend thousands of dollars, and you are not getting rich off your relatively inexpensive cable kits. I just want to jump on the notion that anyone here really has any ulterior motives or is unqualified.
@Douglas Blake did you check that with a debt, Doug. Could be expectation bias!
@Douglas Blake I was talking about me, switching out both the cables and connection method.
You may want to reach out to Ron as he has been struggling to make "good" recordings and no doubt has Learned a lot, and I'm sure can make some worthwhile suggestions. For yeah, making recordings that truly capture Sound-staging (and more) is no easy feat.
@@iowaudioreviews i doubt that will happen. a guy who designs and builds kits this amazing is no charlatan.
Ron lost all credibility with me when he said he could hear the difference the tube connecters made.
One thing that I feel some don't realize, and that is important to note, is that Danny's overall System (Speaker, Electronics, Room, Wiring, etc.) give Danny the opportunity to hear things that others (Speaker designers, Electronics manufacturers, us Audiophile consumers, etc.) simply cannot. His system is to a large degree off the grid and very resolute, and therefore allows Danny to hear into the music more so than most. And so yeah, it then allows Danny to do the 'magic' that he does (Speaker designs, Crossover designs, etc.). Just something to consider...
@@iowaudioreviews No problem, remain a skeptic... your loss.
@@iowaudioreviews The differences in speaker cables and interconnects is not tone, but precision and accuracy in the soundstage. If it's affecting tone, it's likely doing damage to the signal and isn't a good cable. The differences in power cables is dynamics and life. Believe me when i tell you, I used to be a skeptic. But I've listened to Danny and Paul (and others, but those two have brought me the most knowledge that have really transformed my system). I'm a DIY guy so I thought, what the hell, and I built my own interconnects, speaker cables, and power cables. Yes, there was a huge difference. I didn't change anything in the gain, room, or anything. But after installing the power cables, guess what, everything was more dynamic and hit harder, including the subs. But, don't take my word for it, ask my closet door, which started rattling like crazy after the power cable install. The power cables were the only change! Gain was the same. Room was the same, from speaker and furniture placement. Everything was the same. I ended up lowering my subs gain 3db to tame the rattling. lol
I'd like to add, I believe the disconnect with skeptics is the prices of these exotic cables. I'm right there with you. I can't muster up the balls to pay for them. DIY is my friend. It's been an amazing journey.
blue jeans cable is enough
This has reached pretty low ebb. Honestly, everyone knows that AC mains can induce a hum in audio cables. And why no mention of balanced cables? This solution has existed for decades, is commonly available and is standard in professional (analogue) audio cabling.
None of this makes GR Research look good, I'm afraid.
I'm curious, how does this make GR Research look bad?
Also, balanced only adds another set of problems. Unless you need balanced for some reason, un-balanced is better.
@@joshua43214 Not necessarily. If gear is pseudo balanced, then unbalanced will be better.
@@joshua43214 Now why do professionals use balanced cables?
@@edgar9651 Two main reasons, first and most important is very long cable runs. Second is the cables often end up in close proximity to mains cables and other equipment.
Balanced audio requires adding a extra circuitry to both ends. This circuitry is not 100% transparent (and can often be pretty questionable), so using balanced audio when you don't need it actually can degrade your audio.
Balanced audio in the right situation is excellent. Where it is not needed it is at best a waste of money.
Danny is a preacher, not a scientist.
What is that cheap 12 awg cable made of? Is it OFC? Or CCA?
Tomorrow I will test my new cable. Coming from an 11 awg OFC silver coated to my new kimber 8pr. Was just finishing the termination with bananas.
I will use REW to see, how the frequency response is behaving. Powered by Marantz and fresh installed Elac 249. lovely speakers. I am so curious, if there is even more to discover ... or if it is only placebo.
I don't have any cheap 12 awg cable. Be careful using Silver coated Copper wire. It will cause a phase shift that can disrupt the signal.
Danny, All things equal, what makes most improvement -your PCs or SCs? And why?
How often, if ever, do you upgrade your reference system. Do you continue to look for better cables, amps, preamp speakers etc? Thanks
Danny - Terry of the PursuitPerfectSystem channel ( /channel/UCrqva7JT_35j4zNcgan47bQ ) *has made some excellent high quality recordings that make signal and speaker cable differences audible* Somehow he manages to provide high res. audio on his TH-cam channel. It might be worthwhile asking him how he did it. Even I can hear the differences on a PC with a pair of budget Sennheiser headphones. Check this one out /watch?v=bVopaHeCtFs for example. Note Terry includes the hint *Put video in 4K for best sound quality*
Referring to your comment about AudioScienceReview and RF on signal cables, I wrote Amir that he should INJECT RF into equipment (eg. a preamp, etc.) and measure what it does and LISTEN to it too. Transistors and op amps used in equipment operate up to several megaHertz - often even shortwave frequencies (30 MHz). Even if we can't hear it, it doesn't mean it's _not_ being amplified electronically. One theory says it may cause a device (or circuit) to be close to saturation at that frequency which has a knock-on detrimental effect on the audible frequencies.
Unfortunately many people who believe only in measurements are not willing to believe that there is more to cable performance than can be measured. And they are also not willing to believe any differences they can hear unless backed up by repeatable double blind test results.
All the best, Rob in Switzerland
2x blind is often overkill in audio, I agree. Note: Amir fully espouses listening as part! of comparative testing AND he stresses the relevance of instrumental measurement data. But: Often we start arguing back and forth and really we have experimental setups that are flawed ( Goes for both "camps“), some of that was addressed in this video. 1 thing though: If he can hear a "hum“, he can measure it. That is one of the easy ones, not anywhere near as complex as speaker comparison. Imho both camps have a partial hold on the "Truth“ and the placebo effect is a bitch "You are the easiest person to fool“.
@@HelmutRockstroh one camp says cables make no audible difference...the other says they do...how can both be partially right? It sounds good to say this "both camps" stuff, but it makes no logical sense.
Weather TH-cam is set to 1080p or 4k the audio stays the same. Uses Opus 251 codec which I believe is variable about 160kbps so good MP3 quality. Far as I know there isn't a way get it any better.
Definition of listening test: How would you rate the sound of this (sales)person talking about the time he did a listening test?
An audio engineer's intuition: Sure, I can use to camera's built-in stereo mic...
The interesting thing about low level HF noise such as AM and FM bandwidths, is how it can back feed into amplifier gain stages causing stridency and breakup nodes especially if any global feedback is used.
You are correct.
Isn't typically attenuated though with a small value cap/resistor on the output terminals? I know on my ADCOM power amp there is a .1uF cap and 4.7ohm resistor in parallel between the + and - terminals.
@@OHMAudioChannel There is some attenuation there and some amps do address it, but that is a low order filter. It does not remove it.
@@dannyrichie9743 Makes sense. Thanks for the added info Danny. Looking forward to the follow up videos. This has been a really interesting series.
@@dannyrichie9743 Yep, and we went to the moon in 1969. Oh and it and the Earth are spheres.
It would be great to see the blind test with good mics.
Its way easier to say its pointless to buy high end cable than to spend time and money on testing it yourself...
If you dont believe better cable sounds better, maybe you dont deserve enjoying it
You nailed it straight to the coffin! "Believe" is the right word!!!
AudioTheoryReview - this is a good one :-) Keep up the good work!
Danny you are such a class act even though those who disagree with you are not. It’s so refreshing to see someone who doesn’t take it personally when others disagree with your ideas. I hate that people can no longer disagree professional and cordially. Kudos to you. Thank you and keep up the good work.
I would estimate that if you have rf in your room that is severe enough to cause speaker cables to matter...you are probably getting sunburnt at the same time.
This is truly ridiculous folks!
But Danny, bless his heart, knows best?
Wanna know how I know that speaker cable design has a significant effect on sound quality? Because Danny said it does.
He’s a professional because he has been ‘down that road’ many times in most all the variations. There are a type of people who’s ego just can’t handle being subservient to facts that escape them. Or put another way, an entire body of discipline in a specific subject area that is attained ONLY through many years of focused observation. No short cuts.
They just reject logic in lieu of ego.
His only problem is he won't do real science of doing and reconciling objective measurements and his subjective impressions. Real science requires both, just ad hoc subjective impressions is not true science. Danny should try to step up to doing true science if he wants to teach the world.
@@StewartMarkley So if 2 items that measure pretty much identically to the point naysayers say no one could possibly hear a difference, but the cheaper one sounds like shit, you would buy it "cause science". Like all super-low distortion DACs must sound identical and therefore are perfect and one need not buy anything else but a cheap DAC, right? Sorry, but if you believe that, you may save a lot of money, but you will never find that magic an exceptional unit will make. It's your loss, due to "science". I don't think anything has changed more than "science facts", in my lifetime.
@@46wireboy For the record, I purchased the drivers and built the Encore X-MTM cabinets designed by Danny but I don't use any speaker cables or power cables because I built amplifiers and active crossovers that sit on top of the speakers with very short wires heading directly to the drivers, and are powered by 48-volt batteries that are not connected to the AC mains when I use the system. So I save bundles of money and get better sound by avoiding potential problems rather than trying to tweak the system with dubious benefit. And I have the knowledge, tools, and time to measure and listen my way to audio bliss because I am now a retired audio and electronics engineer.
As far as Danny trying to be a teacher, I think that it is a noble cause to undertake and I applaud him for the attempt. However unfortunately Danny makes no attempt to try to understand and reveal WHY and HOW he hears what he says he hears, which is what real science, real scientists, and real engineers always try to do. Saying that a whole cable industry exists is not evidence, proof, or science.
It also is not science when someone does some measurements which they interpret to mean that there is not enough objective difference to make a subjective difference and for someone to claim that there IS an audible difference they are simply wrong. And leave it at that without making any attempt to replicate the conditions where people claim to hear obvious differences.
Both conclusions suffer from INSUFFICIENT science and form the basis for ardent and zealous fans for both sides, neither one being sufficiently grounded in science to proclaim victory. Sadly I think that the struggle will continue probably forever mainly because of preconceived ideas and expenditures on fixes by the cable believers, and the inordinate cost of doing real scientific and statistically reliable double-blind testing that MAY help convince SOME of the cable naysayers that audible differences might actually exist under SOME conditions.
But without attempting to uncover if, how, and why audible differences occur, there is only INSUFFICIENT SCIENCE going on. As Albert Einstein has been famously quoted as saying, "everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." And his natural curiosity of why and how there were observable differences from Newtonian physics led to a new and refined view of the universe. That's REAL SCIENCE.
Yeah but if it takes years of focused observation and "knowing what to listen for" for any of this to make a difference, what are we doing here? To me that's listening to your equipment instead of listening to the music.
Never understood why you would want to spend great time and effort to learn how to recognize that your music, which always sounded great before, actually sounds terrible.
My system cost more than a new Honda Civic and it still sounds like trash according to a lot of so-called audiophiles because it didn't cost more than a BMW in. Buy if I spent that it's still crap til you spend an S Class Mercedes on it.
Let's just admit we are nerds with a gadget fetish as our wives well know. 😀
You never visited a garage for a tyre change have you?
Can't say he's not consistent but I would say that cable comparison looks like comparing a Ferrari to a Toyota Tercel looking at those cables. I'd rather see you compare a Lexus ES350 to a Camry. And yes, hearing differences through TH-cam through our speakers is almost pointless because it doesn't work in general. I would never say using a semi high-quality cable is pointless it's just the $15,000 every three feet cable seems ridiculous!🤯
15000 is ridiculous for 3 feet yes no doubt even i agree that cables impact the sound the snake oil is in the prices and the marketing
@@MrDannydjmix2
Agree, believe it or not there are cables that cost that much for a pair. Of course made out of pure silver.🤯
@@bigjay1970 there are cables that cost more then 100 000
@@MrDannydjmix2
Gee wizzz🤯😳
@@bigjay1970 i do believe cables can make a big difference, most cheap cables are really poor quality, bad connectors etc, but no way in h*** those 100 000 cables are worth the price!
I hope to some day have speakers worth using those wires you had there!
I’m really interested in seeing this listening challenge video. When do you expect to have it up on your channel?
Never going to happen
For the record, I purchased the drivers and built the Encore X-MTM cabinets designed by Danny but I don't use any speaker cables or power cables because I built amplifiers and active crossovers that sit on top of the speakers with very short wires heading directly to the drivers, and are powered by 48-volt batteries that are not connected to the AC mains when I use the system. So I save bundles of money and get better sound by avoiding potential problems rather than trying to tweak the system with dubious benefit. And I have the knowledge, tools, and time to measure and listen my way to audio bliss because I am now a retired audio and electronics engineer.
As far as Danny trying to be a teacher, I think that it is a noble cause to undertake and I applaud him for the attempt. However unfortunately Danny makes no attempt to try to understand and reveal WHY and HOW he hears what he says he hears, which is what real science, real scientists, and real engineers always try to do. Saying that a whole cable industry exists is not evidence, proof, or science.
It also is not science when someone does some measurements which they interpret to mean that there is not enough objective difference to make a subjective difference and for someone to claim that there IS an audible difference they are simply wrong. And leave it at that without making any attempt to replicate the conditions where people claim to hear obvious differences.
Both conclusions suffer from INSUFFICIENT science and form the basis for ardent and zealous fans for both sides, neither one being sufficiently grounded in science to proclaim victory. Sadly I think that the struggle will continue probably forever mainly because of preconceived ideas and expenditures on fixes by the cable believers, and the inordinate cost of doing real scientific and statistically reliable double-blind testing that MAY help convince SOME of the cable naysayers that audible differences might actually exist under SOME conditions.
But without attempting to uncover if, how, and why audible differences occur, there is only INSUFFICIENT SCIENCE going on. As Albert Einstein has been famously quoted as saying, "everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." And his natural curiosity of why and how there were observable differences from Newtonian physics led to a new and refined view of the universe. That's REAL SCIENCE.
Your comment is a true bliss sir🙂
And the totally unheard of condescending tone from Danny in the begining, and more or less thrueout the video, is like watching Kids in the schoolyard..... and that of course goes for Amir to..... All the little smirks and what have you thrueout there videos is simply just unbearebly in the long run.....
And to think I was saving for the NX-Oticas.......well the last couple of month with these videos have put an end to that....
@@clausolsen856 well don't write Danny off that quickly. I actually believe in Danny's support of the DIY community, and his designs and products in general. I actually built his Encore X-MTM speakers but sent the crossover components back to him and changed the woofers to 8 ohm woofers because I chose to actively cross over the drivers instead. And I really believe in open baffle designs so I wouldn't just drop the NX Oticas. I just don't believe that Danny really understands how to apply science, which unfortunately is the cause of all or most of anyway the controversy.
@@StewartMarkley I am not disputing that the constructions are good, to much good feedback from peoble I trust. But at some point I must draw a line......so i am out.
I saw "Understanding Danny Richie" talking about Nirvana's song "Heart shaped box". In this video you also mention Nirvana and I guess the song "Heart shaped box". As I understand it, you hear three guitars, because I can hear two clearly one a bit to the left of the center a bit into the soundscape the other to the right behind the speaker with a little lower volume, where is the third guitar then. I also listen to "Heart-shaped box" on the Deluxe version (with 43 tracks) from Qobus (Original Steve Albini 1993 mix) track 19, the left guitar is more in the center and the other guitar a little to the right and a little further in, that sounds like what you are talking about. But you hear a third guitar Is this correct?
No, it was just two guitars.
In one of these cable videos there were 2 external links to some reference reading that Danny posted. What were the sites? I can't find them anymore. TIA
Well, you could go to PS Audio and spend $130 to $4,400 for a power cable. Or, their speaker cables from $230 to a whopping $21,100. Or, get Danny's, try it out for 30 days and if you can't hear a difference, send them back for a refund. What could be simpler?
Double blind is indeed a catch phrase. Most who reference it have no idea what it is or how useless it is.
It is not useless, but it can be overkill. A single blind test properly run will do it. But, properly run is the hard part.
Ask yourself which of the two is selling a product. Amir or GR Research.
I don't think Amir has listened to music. Pretty sure his favorite track is "signal generator"
@@PlaybackMansion again, who among them is trying to sell a product.
It really dosen’t matter who is the product seller. We people believe what we want to believe. Science or proof never stopped any religion. It just make people believe even stronger.
Randall. Are you saying Amir would not be selling cables if he knew this to be true? Do you see the problem with your argument?
@@mrcohiba1662 feel free to point me to Amir’s product page with his grossly expensive cables and no measurements.
Please can you tell me if I were to bound 5 lengths of speaker cable together into one cable would it improve to sound quality?
No.
Steve is right. It is easy to hear the differences between cables. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not tried, hasn't got a good hi-fi or has hearing problems. People who dismiss this based on theory without trying it are misleading themselves.
“...dismiss this based on theory...”
Let me fix that for you:
“....dismiss this based on science...”
“It’s easy to go to breath underwater. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not tried, hasn’t got good lungs or has breathing problems.”
Then explain the abx tests already done that proved ppl can't tell a difference. Go look it up, the data is published on the web. Look up coat hanger wire vs esoteric cable. They have done ABX testing on amps too and many ppl preferred the cheap amp. Explain that.
Who's going to run this test? One of your buddies or employees? Gosh I wonder what the outcome will be?
😂😂😂
I hope more people will do listening test. It would be great if all channels could be a little more polite. By the end of this year I plan on making a great set of cables.
That's it, make your own. Blue Jeans Cable will give you top quality and charge you what the pros pay. 12 pf/foot for RCA, and no nonsense about resistance from your speaker cables (10 ft ~ 50 milliohms in series with more than 1,000 milliohms in a worst case scenario, 4000+ milliohms typical, so the voltage divider is essentially trivial, yet hucksters would have you spend up to $1000 on a pair of cables. One of the best amps out there right now goes for $900 new, why spend more on the wires than the amp?
These videos make me wanna redo the speaker wires in my car.
Your ears aren't high class measurement tools of some kind. They are about the worst sensors we have and gez even worst as we get older. If I enjoy the music, everything is fine. In second instance I am gonna rely on my dog....If he doesn't yell and run out of the room, the interfering sounds are probably within tolerances.
let us try this, give two soundsamples, , one with your cable another with a cheap one. Let it vote here and two weeks later tell us which cable was connected to which sample
You do a experiment, take your favourite track and record your hifi playing it!
Then play that back over the hifi. then you decided if that’s a good representation of how your system sounds.
you have very little knowledge about sound recording and critical listening. i suggest you find one of the many tests on the web to ascertain if you can tell the diff between mp3 and cd playback. if you can spot diff then you begin to understand what danny is saying. subtle diffs appear large when you recognize them. i am certain a guy like danny can hear this way more quickly than you or i.
@@veroman007 that is correct, people with trained ears who have also listened to a lot of high end equipment can pickup many more things. But even then, there is a limitation what we can hear just because of our physiology. Many other qualified people who don't peddle fancy cables have proven there is no difference but yet Danny keeps coming back with arguments that don't prove anything - like this video.
@@veroman007 i assume you mean only Golden Ears have the knowledge to hear it and all others not ? If it so, all others do not need these fancy cables, cause they can not hear a difference. It is ok we will save a lot money
That's been done for YEARS are you new here? Try analog planet for one.
But tell me, if the radio frequencies that a speaker cable picks up matters, wouldn't you hear those in the speaker when the stereo is turned of if it mattered? Why would they suddenly be a problem when the music is playing? The signal cable on the other hand is going in to the amplifier and is amplified, so there might be a theoretical problem. What is your argument against this?
Obviously the cable nay sayer forgot about the feedback loop on all amplifier outputs !! It's the same reason why computer monitors used to all have ferrite cores wrapped around the input cable !!!
In my experiences other than the speakers themselves the capacitors have the most impact on the sound of a speaker. However I've found that certain amps respond differently to capacitors. My class D amps seem not t like the more expensive film and foil capacitors. So...I wonder how much of a difference can audio cables make? And are they worth it? I once read a review on an expensive audio cable and the reviewer didn't like the change in sound.
Class D. You're not in the right video.
Also I worked I a factory making industrial machinery & many times shielding caused more problems than it helped
Does the guage actually matter? While working in car audio years ago, i had a person tell me that the guage from the amp to speaker made a difference. I did not try it back then and run the same guage ( 14 awg) through out my home theater system.
I guess the most important part of the video is below the video. Buy here, only 249 USD for the magic power cable - and that's the cheapest version.
Comrade Stalin vould be weary disappointed to learn of somebody describing the benefits of a product und then having the nerve to sell something!!
I was wondering if instead of just using songs why not use recrdings of single musical instruments. If there is such a thing of course. I can imagine that the decay on a triangle, the cavity resonance on an upright base, or even the live-ness of speaking voice would better material to distinguished the difference between cables . I would love to hear the test as I'm on the fence too. More likely bec my gear and or ear not good enough. Just my 2 cents.