The India Pattern Brown Bess and the 1800 Baker Rifle: Firepower Compared
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ค. 2020
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In this episode of the "Firepower Series", we compare the Brown Bess and the Baker Rifle.
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0:43 imagine hiking through the Canadian wilderness only to find some guy colonizing the local mountains
Imagine!
I would join forces with him in exchange for his advanced weaponry giving me the edge against all my rival clans only to have to soil taken from beneith my feet and be given some barren lands... Maybe in the future we could build casinos on this land and become filthy rich.
@@GlockamoleG17Maybe, but you don't get to have an ice cold, crisp, clean, Kokanee Glacier Pilsner, do you?
@@armchairgeneralissimo Exactly.
I have had a replica BrownBess for close to 40 years, it's fun to shoot. I a .72 cal bal maybe better at first few rounds but as ballel starts to foul a 69. Would be easier.
This just goes to show just how much of an advancement the Minie ball was: It basically made the smoothbore obsolete because a Minie based rifle had both rifle accuracy (because the ball expands on firing engaging the rifling) and musket rate of fire (due to undersized ball) in 1 ammo type. The Minie ball is right up there with spitzer projectiles (and maybe smokeless powder) when it comes to ammo advancements IMHO.
I just hope the Liberals do not read this they will ban the Minie Ball!
Yes, that's absolutely right - and it made the Baker rifle type of rifle obsolete too. The percussion cap was very useful in the 1820/30s but nothing like as significant. Of course we hardly think about that period in history because it was overtaken so quickly by the breech loading rifle.
@@steamboatmodel You mean the Minie ball that liberals annihilated reactionaries with?
@kinsmarts Take your politics outside of a video that has nothing to do with it.
The expanding ball was indeed a revolutionary invention.
The Canadian Assault Weapon Ban forgot one. Britishmuzzleloader's thighs.
Haha!
Bruh
😂
I love your videos Rob, I wish I could shoot at these beautiful locations!
You need to get here! :-)
That would be an awesome cross over episode!
You both are Great!
@@britishmuzzleloaders where are you filming exactly?
@@davejones67 In da woods.....
@@davejones67 the loyalist side of the border.
I kinda wish there was a Frenchmuzzleloaders channel so we could pit the Charleville and Brown Bess against one another, a job for Ian perhaps?
That would be a cool idea!
Yes
To be honest, it would not be particularly impressive because the only practical difference between the Charleville and the Bess is that the French guns tended to last longer before needing repair because the Brown Bess' barrel used a less durable pin system to secure itself to the stock, whereas the French used barrel bands which didn't damage the wood over time in the same way. In terms of actual shooting, they are essentially the same gun. The same would carry on right up to 1867. It is only really with the breechloaded rifles that you see real differences in performance.
That said, it would be a project worth seeing if anyone knows a Canadian with a bunch of old French military arms to collaborate with Rob or a non-Canadian with both British and French arms of the era willing to host him since moving guns over national borders is a headache at the best of times.
So far as I am aware the worst thing about the French musket had nothing to do with the actual musket, but instead was that French powder tended to be of lower quality than British powder. I would not imagine there would be much difference in accuracy or rate of fire between the Brown Bess and the Charleville, given equal training and experience.
I’d be up for it although I’d need a French musket first and it would be a transatlantic contest.
Love this guy’s English, it’s so proper, unlike mine :-)
Haha!
don't worry,Paul,i can't do a proper British accent sometimes.
In all honesty your content is some of the best on the platform, way better than channels with 10 times more subs. Keep up the good work and greetings from England. 👍
Than you kindly!
"Do you know what makes a good soldier? The ability to fire 3 rounds a minute in any weather"
-Richard sharpe 95th rifles
No quoting of that series here, thank you..... Hahaha!
@@britishmuzzleloaders i feel like i want to take that as some kind of challenge...
From what I understand, three rounds a minute was minimum standards for most infantry at the time.
@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 I think the general rule of thumb was to load, aim and fire accurately as quickly as possible while trying not to get shot, bayonetted, blown up by artillery fire, shredded by grapeshot, run-though by a cavalryman's lance, your head lopped-off by a sabre, etc., etc., etc.
Marshal Maurice de Saxe writes: "Light infantry should be able to fire 6 shots a minute, but under the stress of battle 4 should be allowed for."
That view though. I miss going outside.
Cheers!
I always learn something interesting from your videos. Despite having fired hundreds of thousands of rounds from a variety of firearms (easily a half-million if you count machine guns during military service), I have exactly zero experience with black powder but I'm a huge history buff. The way you combine the shooting and history has me thinking I "need" to take up a new shooting sport. (As in, "I need a new motorcycle" not as in, "I need a kidney transplant.") :-)
Go to cabelas website and drop 250 bucks on a cap and ball revolver then caps powder grease and balls or a mold for another 50 bucks all in around 300 to 350 depending on what you get. And a pound of powder shooting 15-30gr loads lasts a long long time. Probably the best way to get into black powder because they are so cheap have historical significance for the most part and are pretty fun for people that aren't all that interested in slow firing a single shot
Glad that there is something here that you enjoy! Cheers!
Kelton I was in the same boat as you except I have shot maybe a few million rounds. Military, police and recreational shooting. I have after 48 years of shooting now bought a hawkens BP. Rifle and started shooting it. I have fallen hard for it again. For a new way of shooting it is awesome. I wish i had got into it a long time ago instead of collecting military assault rifles.
1900 Baker Rifle! Technology sure comes a long way.😀
Hasn't it!
@@britishmuzzleloaders Now is a 2020 Baker Rifle.
A superb video Rob, thank you. You might feel disappointment in your performance but you identified the cause, will learn from it, and this will exponentially expand the knowledge about the use of these historic firearms. Don't forget, you and a few others are learning all this in limited spare time, for which we are all very grateful, The soldiers who carried these guns into battle had all the previous expertise and knowledge trained into them, and then they had plenty of opportunity to learn their own particular weapon's foibles. All in all I count the whole thing a resounding success.
I've done enough Baker shooting to know that the shooting difficulties here were just the muzzleloading gods... The rifle will shoot all day, with a more favourable divine oversight... 😀
Always a good day when you upload! Was looking forward to a video like this.
Thanks!
Hope you're keeping safe in these times sir! Absolutely brilliant video, just what I needed
I am indeed... Thank you. And you as well!
So glad I found this channel, some other channel recommended it and now this is what I watch between classes! Keep up the great work!
Great to hear! Thanks!
Very interesting data Rob! You just answered a question I had for a long time. Thank you Sir.
You are most welcome!
What you need is Sharpe taking his shirt off and drilling you for an afternoon so you don't get flogged by Sir Henry Simmerson.
Love this video, practical testing of old weapons to challenge old myths and explore history is awesome.
I think I'm going to be starting a Sharpe book soon as I've watched this.
Have a good read!
The quality of your videos is unpatched, er, unmatched.
Great pun, that.....
I have been very much looking forward to this 👍
So glad you have acquired a Brown Bess.
Cheers!
Yet another great video. Really enjoying watching your channel.
Thank you very much!
Superb video Rob. Thanks!
Cheers! Thanks.
Simply a great video...superbly done - with passion style and great content!
Thank you kindly!
GREAT JOB!!!! THIS ANSWERED ME LOT OF QUESTIONS!
Thank you!
I like that you serve us up the data as it is , problems and all . Very professional 👍
Cheers.
Been loving the channel for years! Greetings from Vermont!- Best wishes and stay healthy!- Brent
Thank you!
I'm grateful to have a source of knowledge such as yourself a few mouse clicks away. Thanks for all you do!
Cheers.!
Really interesting subject. Keep up the great work Rob.
Cheers!
Excellent stuff as always, Rob!
Thanks Chuck!
man keep up the good work you do such a good job I couldn't have cared less about the subject matter of this channel but you got me addicted I'm looking for an smle I'm watching every single episodes you've got me and my son are setting s*** up at the range and going out with the rifles we have honestly you do a fantastic job and I love the channel
Hopefully there is more that you'll enjoy here, on the Channel! Cheers.
Always informative!
Thank you!
I love the sound of musket fire in the morning
Haha!
That is a fascinating video. Well done.
Thank you!
Damn I love this channel. Keep doing what you’re doing pal.
Thank you!
EXCELLENT and interesting video! it inspires me to definitely experiment with my muzzleloading cartridges this summer.
Nice! Best of luck!
Realy interesting and well put together exercise. Many thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
Wonderful video. THANK YOU.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Really enjoyed this one brother. A true rifleman fan it was a question I wondered about
Cheers!
Great video!
Thank Matt! I see you are embarking on a complimentary video yourself!
i love your videos. keep up the good work
Thank you!
Great stuff Rob
Thanks!
I think the big culprit in all of these myths of patched-rifles being slow is that muzzle-loaded rifles simply work better the tighter the fit, and that takes time. They used to hammer the lead into the rifling, with an actual hammer, back in the 17th-century, and the most accurate muzzle-loaded rifles still had that sort of extremely tight fit right up to the end of the muzzle-loading era. This is why rifles were primarily a civilian hunting weapon until the Minie projectile came around. That said, Bakers proved decades before then that you didn't need to sacrifice a lot of time to get a lot more accuracy than a smoothbore. You just couldn't easily justify paying for every infantryman to have a rifle for such a modest improvement in individual accuracy at the time.
Mallets were issued to the Rifles in the very beginning... then they were discontinued so saw no or very little active service. I wouldn't say that slow loading is a myth, as it does indeed take longer to load whether the patched ball is in a cartridge or loose... you hit the nail on the head by mentioning cost...
@@britishmuzzleloaders Do we have amounts it cost to make them from the time in the way we can make comparisons for World War 2?
Absolute gem of a channel
Cheers.
Happy to see a vid from you.
Cheers!
He needs Rhodesian short shorts for his non uniformed videos
Nice historical pick...
It has been a while since I have seen your videos. I am a big fan.
Glad to have you back!
@@britishmuzzleloaders Thank you.
This is some great stuff, but I need that sweet, sweet Anglo-Zulu series fix...
Working on it...
If I recall correctly from David Harding's EIC book the Baker sewn patched ball was shipped already made up and lubricated and had a lubricant of a mix of Linseed oil and beeswax.
Fantastic quality video as usual. Good on you Rob.
I don't have a copy, but stand to ask some friends that do....
Brilliant video always love them! I was there in 2015 such an amazing event! Would take a bess anytime.
Waterloo was amazing, if lacking in some areas,.. like the crowds... :-)
Robs Canadian Gunrack - the most scenic gunrack in the world.
LOVE this early guns research stuff Rob....cheers n keep it up
Cheers!
Yet another excellent and interesting video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I've had the pleasure to fire both many times - this brings back fond memories.
Nice!
Great informative videos, well shot and well edited. I've got a few items from What Price Glory, and I was wondering where you acquired the green jacket you're wearing here. Thank you for the fantastic work!
You are most welcome! More info not he jacket can be found in Part One of the "Kit" series on the Channel. Cheers!
Hey! That’s younger me as a drummer at 3:47... never thought I’d show up in a britishmuzzleloaders video! Waterloo was a fun time. I’ll never forget that event.
Haha! There you go! Thanks for helping to make the show what it was!
@@britishmuzzleloaders Hey, another drummer! Thats me on the right of the fifer at 2:59 - what an awesome event it was back in 2015! And great video - have always been told the slower rate is a given with a Baker but this flips that on it's head!
Quite timely for me, Rob. I just watched the Sharpe's series again on DVD during the current nuttery of Michigan.
Ewww,.... :-) Just kidding...
i am getting angry why this man doesn’t have million subs
Thank you! Pass the word! Cheers.
Thanks Rob. Interesting results. Thought provoking of the Murphy's law kind. You are the best Rob.
Cheers!
Great shooting.
Cheers!
Lovely as always.
Thank you!
Always a good day when a vid on this channel comes out!! 🔫🔫
Thank you!
You have a very good TH-cam channel on British historical weapons. I like the videos about the Brown Bess musket and the Baker rifle. The twist of the Baker rifling is very slow, I suppose that's why it loads well and fast with spherical bullet and patch, with the weapon's iron ramrod and no starter. I mean it loads faster than a Pennsylvania or Hawken flintlock rifle with a 48" twist. But you would have to know which one is more accurate at 100 yards. Greetings from Spain.
Glad you enjoy the Channel! The twist rate doesn't really affect things for ramming... proper lubrication if the patch is the key.
Well done, Sir!
Thank you!
So pretty much there's 2 take away's that are in the video;
One, the Baker Rifle & Brown Bess using paper cartridges are on par with one another in terms of speed, with the possibility with the baker being a little bit more faster (Although drill of these firearms is everything), with patch ball being more slower for much greater accuracy over paper.
Two, keep firearm's clean & check that your ammo is still good to go before shooting! Saves ya a lot of headaches.
Much enjoy your content lad, It's really been helpful for me looking into these crafted tools of warfare & seeing If I really like to own one myself. Keep up the great work!
Cheers!
Great video!! Would it be possible to leave in the reloading segments? It is always interesting to see how long each of the steps takes.
I try to usually leave in one evolution's worth.... after that, it bores too many people.... :-)
Very interesting--perhaps even more so with the small mistakes, as those surely just represent reality.
How feasible and effective is a cleaning of the Baker, "in the line"?
No more difficult than any other weapon of the era... Water will get most of the fouling out,... makes a mess, and then has to be dried out for proper ignition...
@@britishmuzzleloaders I have read accounts of men urinating down the barrels of, certainly muskets, to try to clean them in action. Do you think that would work?
@@99IronDuke it works for the same reason that water does: the black-powder residue responds positively to water as a solvent, and hotter water means faster chemical reactivity, improving the effect. So hot piss and beer will work great if you don't mind the smell. That said, distilled water is best because it means no additional chemicals are being added that may create fouling or corrosion of their own over time. Also good clearing away any corrosive salts your period-accurate primers might be introducing.
I will also note that urinating down your barrel in public may be frowned upon by local ordinance, so check with your local police first. :)
3 things that make 1 minute feel forever. 1. Planks, 2. food in microwave, 3. loading a muzzleloader 3 rounds-3 hits.
Haha!
Rob thank you for the video I always enjoy them, I wonder if you tried using Bacon grease with your patches that may stop them drying out just a thought, been using TC bore butter with mine but there in a tin. Safe shooting
Thanks! Yes, oxidization is a factor, here as with other combinations... I think that it may have more to do with minimizing rather than eliminating the issue...
I am nearly finished building a Colonial Long Rifle. I am intrigued with the prospect of building a Baker. It would make a great video if you explained the process of building yours.
those are some confident shorts and I do respect them.
carry on ol' chap.
Cheers.
Best channel on TH-cam.
Thank you!
Fantastic video as always. Can I please ask what that tunic and shorts combo is and where I might be able to purchase said items?
There is more info in the Part One of the Kit series on the Channel. (not on the shorts....)
omg. this is such a beautiful sight! ... the landscape, I mean.
Cheers!
Oh lordy... The short shorts are back 💪🏻!
You bet!
@@britishmuzzleloaders I've always been a firm believer that short shorts (much like the kilt) are a force multiplier, and make you an inherently better shooter and/or person for being able to carry them off. I'm nowhere near at full-Rhodesian-short yet, but that's my life goal.
Context is key. If you are scouting the Pyrenees on recon or whatever, long range firepower is advantageous especially if you are hidden behind a mountain rock... pitched battles rounds need to go down range as quick as possible.
The point being here that the baker didn't hamstring it's user with a slow rate of fire at smoothbore ranges..
I was honestly expecting the first skit to have the "rate of fire" fellow to be super sped up as he fired. "Rate of fire!" *comically fast reloading ensues*
Haha!
Fascinating video - great to see the two weapons shot together.
Not forgetting that the baker armed troops are potentially picking off enemy officers at 250 yards, likely giving the opportunity for two rounds of accurate fire before changing modes.
I suspect you can also add in the reputed "elite" nature of Baker armed units - I would suspect that the troops with this weapon would have on average been sharper with their drills.
They did have a somewhat more generous allotment of practice ammunition, but not by much (60 or 70) depending on the source, vs the musket armed Light Infantry with 50.
Thanks for the time and effort to produce this vid. Bearing in mind the similarities between the musket and rifle accuracy and rof, would it be useful to continue experimentation at a longer range?
Was the rifle, by changing from loose to patched, more adaptable according to battlefield circumstances? Eg, could the rifle be effective as a sort of longer range skirmishing, almost a proto sniping weapon, yet also be effective in a closer range, 'line' situation?
Please forgive any inaccurate language, I'm not an expert!
That is precisely the point of the video. :-) The rifle was absolutely more adaptable. Expense and training were the two barriers to more rifles on the battlefield. (as well as a bit of focus on the contemporary paradigm) Patched ball at longer range, when a bit more time can be taken, and unpatched ball at shorter range when urgency takes on more of a consideration... When taken into context with the rest of the Baker videos on the Channel, which feature shooting to 300 yds, you can see the demonstration of the true capabilities (or lack of them) of the Baker.
Common lore is one thing, actual field testing another. Thank you for your efforts to part the fog of blather and conjecture.
"the fog of blather and conjecture"...... I may have to use that in the future... :-)
@@britishmuzzleloaders I'm sure you'll have ample opportunity to do so. Seems to be plenty of it about.
@@slowhand1198 Indeed! It just rolls off the tongue so nicely!
Extremely interesting.
Cheers!
I would like to see you do a video on the subject of tap loading as discussed in Bernard Cornwall's Sharp's series.
There's a video on that by the 2/95th Regt (Australia) Reenactors, "Flintlock Musket: Napoleonic tap loading - fiction and fact" here: th-cam.com/video/Pvc86ggLUY4/w-d-xo.html It's comments/description also have some good tidbits. Hope this helps! :)
As mentioned, "csadler" did a great job on that one....
Great video, very impressive lock time. Were you using 1F or 2F?
What make is the Baker rifle? I feel like I'm missing one from my collection now!
TRS... Lot's of info on the rifle and a FAQ video on the Channel if you are interested!
I do appreciate that you are honest about errors that you make. A soldier in battle or even trying to qualify as a marksman would be bound to experience the same errors and the same difficulties.
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it!
britishmuzzleloaders Many thanks for highlighting the Ross as well! My Great Uncle Clarence started hi was with one of those.
@@waynetodd3287 Most welcome!
Oh fuck it, I'm going to sub.
Been watching his videos anyway.
He finally beat me down.
Reluctant or not,.. happy to have you aboard.
@@britishmuzzleloaders You and Bloke on the Range were talking about a company that might be making high quality reproduction Baker Rifles, out of curiosity which one is it so if they do I can buy one.
I love Dan snow's pod casts and TV work. His dad is a legend too.
Yes except when Mr Snow Snr said he "had never seen so many white people" at the Brexit day celebrations in London. That was not so great of him.
Opinions vary.....
Apart from the experiment you conducted, I would still say the answer was no because riflemen were skirmishers. When they felt threatened, they could simply fall back. Therefore, I think rate of fire wasn't a huge disadvantage for them. Thanks for the video. It was really interesting to watch.
While all Light Infantry, including the Rifles, could and did operate in close order, not all Line Infantry could perform Light duties.... so, musket armed Light Infantry, did the exact same job as the Rifles, only at closer range. A good example of this duality of capability is at Waterloo with battalions of the 95th standing in close order along side the 52nd and 71st to receive the French Guard at the climax of the battle...
Hope you are keeping safe in these crazy corona times
Thank you. We are. And you as well!
Yep! Thats what I figured. I would prefer the unpatched cartridge for the baker under 100 yards. Thanks for the video!
In the right context... if given the time, then why not patching it and taking careful aim? Target partially concealed?.... In general though, yes, the unpatched ball performs "acceptably".....
@@britishmuzzleloaders it does. I'm all in on the forced ball. Practical applications though I have to go with the naked paper cartridge under 100yd.
Mate your information is awesome, you should get in touch with forgotten weapons, I bet you could reach a much greater audience and he loves to talk to historical specialists like you. Mate you should write a book if you aren't interested in a collaboration with a larger TH-cam historian
That is very kind. Glad you enjoy the Channel.
Super Rob. Comme d'habitude. Proves the practice of having some unpatched paper cartridges in the Rifleman's pouch was sensible. One does notice a slower lock time for the Baker on the video. In the case of the succeeding Brunswick Rifle the Riflemen were issued both a sewn ball pre greased and a small quantity of extra grease to remedy your 'dryness' issue. Where and how they kept it is not recorded to my knowledge. Thank you for the trials. I do wonder if your older patched balls had an issue with the shortening reacting with the lead ball over time to form a lead soap corrosion which is not slippery and enlarges the ball?
Perhaps John. About 4 inches down the barrel, I knew I was into it for good... it was really quite an ordeal... lots of effort to get the ball down.. I have some cartridges from a similar timeframe left and I'll go and see if there is any corrosion...
More musket videos please. I am a very passionate Napoleonic history nerd and especially with the musket. However, I don't have one. So you should probably show me. ^^
There are more coming...
I Love your work, and honest effort, but if a battle is settled with the pointy end of the musket what then of the Baker armed trooper?
Um, the sword?
Great video, awesome channel.
This and some of your other videos make me wonder... do you have problems with fouling created by shooting unpatched cartridges through the Baker? I've heard that rifles have a lot of trouble with fouling with these, whether it be due to lead streaks or paper residue getting stuck in the rifling.
I've also heard with rifles the patch helps remedy this slightly by "swabbing" the barrel during the loading process. On the other hand, I'd assume the greater windage of unpatched ball would also help? Can you verify either of these?
Shooting with either is generally quite effortless.. it's when you try to transition from unpatched to patched that the excess fouling that accumulates while shooting unpatched ball starts to become an issue... The fouling is hard and while the patch is lubricated, it is being forced down on top of hard dry fouling... after a few rounds the fouling is softened and loading becomes easier. Cheers.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Thanks for the answer, that makes sense. Cheers!
A very interesting observation about the lube, it makes me wonder about the beef and pig tallow used in early .577 Enfield cartridges. Beeswax became the preferred lube, perhaps it stores better.
There is lot's of interesting evidence to suggest that neither were used in the Mutiny... it was a ploy by the Mutineers to spark the rebellion.. there is evidence that states that they were in fact given un lubed cartridges so as to allow them to make them up with something that was acceptable... the propagandists won out on that one.. But yes,.. beeswax stores better but it is not as slick... this was only made acceptable by the reduction of the bullet to .55...
Well done.
Cheers.!
Great scenery. Where you were filming?
In Canada.
Seems like you did this video for me, because of my future baker rifle
Sure thing!
@@britishmuzzleloaders I already got the kit together (horn, mold , sling). No primer horn though.
Don't have any paper cartridge stuff because my/our homemade stuff crumbles too easily. It compresses well, but doesn't work in paper cartridges. Anything else you'd recommend I get ?
@@diktatoralexander88 The book, British Military Flintlock rifles by DW Bailey.
The data confirms what was written by many British Riflemen and Portuguese Cacadores at the time.
Ball and patch for sniping and skirmishing and no patch when firepower down range was important or in times of urgency .
Of course rate of fire at say a French column for instance takes less time as your sight picture is not important ,the single bead on the end of the Bess is adequate for this task.
In this regard with a massed target it is more to do with how well drilled the men are with the weapon than the weapon itself.
The Baker does give us a 2 for 1 in this respect and in this respect without the patch almost becomes an shortened musket.
Thorough testing of the different Baker Ammunition was interesting.
It is interesting that outside of the Light Division in the Peninsular each division got a company from the 60th Rifles for skirmishing activities along with the Musket armed troops within a battalion's own light company.
Great Upload.
Thank you! Do you know if specific references to unmatched ball cartridges?... I'd be interested to se them, for sure!
I would have loved to see the Paget Carbine thrown into the mix here.
Maybe one day!
Asides from extra costs, is there a reason why they didn't put sights onto the standard infantryman's muskets? Seems like the accuracy would improve by quite a bit!
- Big fan of your videos, best wishes from Norwich, UK
Just not seen as being needed given the reality of the era.... Cheers!
Nice video, but you have a typo in your title. It should be "... and the 1800 Baker Rifle...".
Not any more....
The British did actually develop a variant of the Brown Bess with proper sights for light infantry use, the New Land Pattern Light Infantry Musket. It was also shorter and had a brass grip similar to the Baker Rifle for sturdier accurate shooting. It was in service with light infantry units from 1812-1840.
This is covered in the Brown Bess Intro video, yes.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Ah right, I'm sure I've watched that one but it must've been a while ago for me to forget!