Opera and Ballet: How We Missed the Point Entirely
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ค. 2024
- Many of us will be familiar with the world's most famous opera and ballet excerpts - but have we missed the point entirely?
🎁 FREE
Accelerate your ear training, sight reading, and musicianship skills with this free mini-course:
www.insidethescore.com/fast-t...
Your journey towards musical mastery begins here... 🛤️
🎻 Where to Start with Classical Music? - www.insidethescore.com/14-pieces
🎼 The Training Ground for Next-Level Musicianship - www.insidethescore.com/musica...
🎹 Learn the Art and Craft of Composing, and Develop Your Unique Musical Voice - www.insidethescore.com/composer
💖 Support this Channel - / insidethescore
💬 Join the Discord - / discord
Script Written by Kadin Madgwick
Narrated by Oscar Osicki
0:00 - Introduction
1:45 - La Donna e Mobile
3:19 - The Temple Duet
5:47 - The Dance of the Knights
7:40 - Swan Lake
![[UNCUT] รัฐสั่งหยุดปล่อยคลื่น! แต่หยุดพลังปะทุ “น้องหญิง” ไม่ได้ I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RmQh47eIiV0/mqdefault.jpg)
Former ballet soloist here: Classical ballets were structured along predictable lines throughout the whole piece, most of which are to showcase the technique and artistry of the dancers and the choreography (in various but also predictable variations) to which the story was little more than a backdrop. The story creates and mood and esthetic but its importance is rare. Neoclassical (Balanchine and post-Balanchine) ballets take this even further, and the choreography is mostly technical and even more athletic, there is (mostly) no story, and the music, costumes, and backdrop only provide the mood for the brilliance of the choreography. Excerpts from story ballets (classical story ballets) are not ideal but seem almost originally intended (the audience anticipates the climax of the pas de deux of the étoiles couple at the end of the third act), and are not harmed by being taken out of context and may even inspire their viewers to go see the entire piece.
Orchestras perform Prokofiev's Dance of Knights on their own in concert halls. It's brilliant music. I've seen Pastor's Romeo and Juliet first and then bough an excerpts CD. It's great car music tbh.
I agree. I am a dance teacher and frequently show my school-age students lots of dance excerpts including ballet. A favorite is Marianela Nuñez in the "Rose Adagio" from the Royal Ballet's "Sleeping Beauty." Another I have shown is the "Agon Pas de Deaux." The students appreciate its' unusual music, bravado dancing, and that pencheé arabesque! They never question that it is "storyless" as Balanchine once described his ballets that don't have an apparent plotline. For repetition, younger children love counting the multiple turns of Odette in the "Black Swan Pas de Deaux" and the technical brilliance of the dancing of Angel Corella and Gillian Murphy. Another counting activity, but non-ballet excerpt is"Snow" from Mark Morris's '"Hard Nut." There are many jetés that peak at 1 point into a well-patterned "frenzy" of sorts. A lot f children after seeing these clips ask their parents for lessons or to see a ballet live. So, I agree with you that the pieces "are not harmed by being taken out of context and may even inspire their viewers to go see the entire piece." 🙌🏾
The only thing missing here is to mention that many of these pieces "taken out of context" were from suites created by the composers themselves, for example, the Swan Lake Suite or the 3 different suites from Romeo and Juliet.
Thank you. I was going to say something similar. One might say the maker of this video "misses the point entirely" by putting these works on a pedestal and treating them as sacred. It is the work of virtuosos, such as you, that elevates these stories to art.
The comments reveal that different people come to the opera, Ballet etc for different reasons. The dancer for the dance, the instrument player for the score, the story teller for the narrative, while the philosopher comes for the ideas contained with the work, so that the work becomes a meditation on reality and our place within it.
A few years ago I gave an introductory lecture on "Don Giovanni" to an audience of new opera goers. When I got to the duet "La ci darem' la mano" one woman in the audience recognized it as a piece of music she had had performed at her wedding because it was so pretty and sweet and it was even about a wedding. You can imagine her shock as I explained what was really going on in the story behind that duet...
People have "I Will Always Love You" performed at weddings because they aren't paying attention to the verses. David Friedman the theatre composer jestingly blames so many marriages ending in divporce on the popularity of that song setting up their marriages on a negative path.
same with the Wagner Wedding March
Professional dancer/choreographer here -- I think this argument only works for Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, and Stravinsky's narrative work because those pieces were composed specifically for the story ballets. A lot of other Classical/Romantic-era ballets were patchworked together from music written for other purposes, and so don't have the leitmotif structure to hang on to.
Also--I've choreographed a feature-length story ballet! THE QUEEN OF NORI is an original story ballet that follows a Queen who turns to dark magic to save her kingdom from war with neighboring powers. It has themes, leitmotif and all of the dancing drives the story forward, as opposed to pausing the action as discussed here!
I remember watching with my mother a concert on public television celebrating the music of Richard Strauss. There was a performance of the final trio and ending scene from Der Rosenkavalier. I remember fondly having to explain to my mother why Frederica von Stade was wearing slacks instead of a gown, as worn by Kathleen Battle and Renée Fleming. After explaining von Stade was playing the man and a terse explanation of what the scene was about, she wound up enjoying it. The performance was incredible, which of course helped
I came across a "modern" version with Renée Fleming and I thought that opera was trash. Then I've seen here on YT a version with Lott, Moll and Kleiber conducting... I fell in love with Der Rosenkavalier. I suggest to search for it to anyone who enjoys the opera!
I like the way Tchaikovsky drops three notes (the theme of 3 Cards) everywhere in the whole opera. So simple and even a little bit primitive but very interesting and powerful.
There's one opera where the sister is comforting the brother who is in the throes of going insane.
It is the moment his mind is slipping away.
Their vocal exchanges expand and crescendo in a supernova of a final stand of self awareness about to disappear.
A brother and sister.
It seemed to me they began shouting to each other, rather than singing, lost themselves in the experience.
It caused me to burst out in tears silently.
My family members at the time were startled by my sudden reaction.
I was sent stunned for a whole month after watching this.
It was aired on PBS about 2006.
I will not ever forget this.
That sounds like an amazing experience. Do you remember the name of the opera and/or composer?
@@patriciosolorzano5737
I can't. It haunts me. I cannot find it no matter how much I try to research it.
@@patriciosolorzano5737
I think it was called something with the words "The Arts" in it.
(The series it was aired on).
It was shown on PBS and another Channel that I've forgotten what it is.
It might be The Force of Destiny.
@@fabrisseterbrugghe8567
Thank you greatly.
I shall research your description.
I agree that one can gain from listening to the whole ballet or opera, but if one particular aria in Italian that you don’t understand speaks to you, then that’s great. This is one way to listen to music, but there are others. Never forget that the key goal here is your enjoyment. It’s possible that once you know the context and meaning of the aria, you might enjoy it less. That’s okay!
I think this take is a bit harsh, I agree that listening to the whole work is elevating the experience and your understanding of the pieces. But enjoying them by themselves is nothing to be ashamed about. It’s not like only reading the last page of a book it’s more like you have a delicious sandwich but you can add butter and toppings to make it even better.
Nothing to be ashamed about at all. I believe your analogy fits better if you say theirs nothing wrong with AMAZING appetizers(which can be quickly eaten and deeply enjoyed). However theirs is no comparison to a banquet prepared with thought and sumptuous. It’s just harder to make and takes time and effort to consume/digest.
Love the sandwich analogy
The context of the whole is not adding butter and toppings. It's upgrading your one sandwich to an entree with dessert and getting it all free for a year.
Or, there’s a carefully thought-out wine pairing offered along your steak, but you’re okay with just the wine.
Often the exaggeration is done to get the point across, I see it as an invitation to see more of the operas and ballets in their completeness instead of just listening to excerpts.
I absolutely agree with this! When I saw Tosca live at the MET Opera it was unreal to me. Everything just came together. The set, live music, voices, translation, and the company. I love The Pearl Fishers, but then I read the entire Opera and it meant so much more.
A beautiful duet is less when you are unaware that it leads to a person sacrificing himself for the true love of others.
I like what you’re saying as a veteran opera and ballet goer (over 60 years); however, it’s Zurga and Gilda (pronounced with a soft g [Jilda]).
I cringed, too! ♥
There's a (very useful, IMO) corresponding idea in American Musical Theater (AMT), of book versus breakout numbers. One of the defining features of AMT is that critical plot development happens in songs (rather than in dialogue - unlike opera, AMT usually isn't through-composed). But some songs ("breakout numbers") are (often deliberately) still good songs outside of the play's context, and become independently successful, much like these highly visible arias, while others ("book numbers") really don't work outside of the context.
I don't think this is a flaw at all. It's music that works successfully on two different levels, and which, if someone first hears it outside the piece, turns into a surprise bonus for the listener when they get its context.
In Italian operas, the arias can and does stand alone, as Wagner critiqued in his essay On Music and Drama. Often this was for the singer's glory too, as in bel canto. In Wagner's works The Ride of the Valkyries is misunderstood both as a piece itself and its meaning, and in its placement in Die Walküre.
Anypiece of music can stand alone except for Wagner wich intentionally did the opposite, but even though it can it's not the same thing, even for italian opera. I myself had a complete different perception of "la donna è mobile" after I've seen it in the opera in comparison to the perception I had when I just knew it as a tune.
Can you tell me how you think the Ride of the Valkyries is misinterpreted? I'm very familiar with the Ring but I am unsure of how you mean this particular piece is misinterpreted
@@TVDandTrueBlood The comment only relates to people who do not know the Ring, and who only know the piece, as the video articulates, as an excerpt. A better Wagnerian example is the Liebestod and der Verklärung from Tristan, where the former was the Prelude but Liszt's specific excerpted arrangement used that title for the der Verklärung section. Hence its meaning is not well understood to the casual listener, especially if does not know what Isolde sings,and also the grammatical tense used.
@@TVDandTrueBlood Ride of the Valkyries is known to be some sort of call of war and conquest, if you know the Ring you know that's not what the story is about, yes there is part of it but its diminishing to say the least... Many also know Wagner as a "bombastic" composer (many told me so personally), yes it is but it can be the opposite as well and very much so.
@@ClassicalPower Wagner isn't bombastic at all
Many people who listen to the most popular Opera Arias will never attend an opera in their lives. So if this is their way of enjoying it I think that is a good thing. Also the Opera world seems to have lost sight about what the world regards as a world class and world famous opera star. That's why a Pavarotti, Maria Callas, Renee Fleming or Dimitri Hvorostovsky are globally recognized and stand the test of time. The great numbers of people who would otherwise have no interest in opera at all will listen to these stars. High quality video and audio will assure their popularity for generations to come. Also I am delighted that Andrea Bocelli is so successful. His recitals combine many popular opera arias with great songs outside of the classical world. This provides exposure to audience members who would not otherwise consider classical music. This is a good thing.
Not only that, the operas were in the language of the writer and the people who were going to attend. Most people wouldn't understand a piece better whether they listened to a single piece or the whole performance. This is just pretentiousness to the extreme.
I think you can appreciate the entire art form and still listen to excerpts at the same time. I like to listen to tracks from movie soundtracks now and then, just for their own sake. Side note - have you heard "to die for" by Hans Zimmer on the Lion King soundtrack? Super epic. He riffs on Mozart's requiem
But the movie all together seems more valuable, right? Imagine you knew the movie and everyone only knew the soundtrack bits/pieces. I believe that is the point he is trying to make. I maybe wrong.
@@HABA300 That is probably the point, but I feel it comes across as a bit pretentious, bordering the kind of gatekeeping which keeps people away from what we call "classical" music. If someone enjoys an aria from an opera, please do tell them to see the entire opera (and what elements to look out for!), but don't tell them that they misunderstood the music.
@@arneboker6385 I think this argument boils down to whether you want to be nice to a person and encourage them to deepen their understanding or if you want to be plain and blunt. It's hardly gate-keeping if you tell them they're missing the point by just looking over the fence, when the gate is right there, open widely.
Really? "To die for" of the Lion King is a pastiche of Mozart's requiem? Which part exactly? The part for the action scene or the part for the death of Mufasa? However I agree: "To die for" and "This land" are excellent pieces!
@@ClassicalMusicAndSoundtracks yes that's the one, check it out, it's excellent!
Thanks for the insight. ‘O mio babbino caro’ from Gianni Schicchi is one of the most well-known arias but the ironic story behind it is really interesting and not often known. Would have been a good one to explore too.
And the aria totally comes out of left field in the context of the music and the story.
omg yes! it’s so interesting how it’s known as the epitome of romance to the layman despite being comedic in context
It is honestly really funny to me how ppl think it's a very romantic piece when it's extremely ironic in context.
Like quotes from a book can be quickly consumed and enjoyed but there is no comparison to reading the story or understanding it’s interlacing themes prepared with thought and richness. Both can strike inspiration but one weaves it with many aspects of life/depth.
It’s just harder to make and takes more effort to consume/digest. Much like Living…😂
I feel like this about musicals too. So many songs are excerpted and sung as solos but you miss so much of the intended meaning and the deeper nuances without the rest of the show.
My favorite repetition of the R&J conflict theme is when Lady Capulet does her over-the-top mourning for Tybalt. The quality of the movement emphasizes how performative and manipulative her expression of grief is, and the music representing the conflict helps reinforce that idea.
I enjoy operas but it also means I have to do extra readings on ones not sung or written in English, my native language. So I do enjoy excerpts for favourite pieces from whole opera works. Yes, the whole work matters, but we should still be allowed to enjoy the MUSIC from favourites. People vary and same with musical tastes.
Thank you so much for including ballet on your channel! It's a beautiful art, not often considered by mainstream.
I'd add as a general note that watching/listening the a full work maintains the overall balance of the excerpts everyone knows. For example, many times those excerpts are led to by a climax which gives them the majestic aura that they deserve, because everything else contributes to their beauty in the full work. In ballet, this happes with the pas de deux, usually the greatest moments of a ballet which lose a lot of their beauty and importance if taken out of their context.
was just listening to La Callisto today, and this upload hits my notifications, crazy
Another good example is Ode an die Freude, from Beethoven IX. It is so much stronger after so many emotions of the previous parts
Thank you for the context, it's so impactful!
“Pieces that aren’t well known” what are your favorites?
Mine:
“Nous avons en tête une affaire” in Carmen. Also the way the overture transitions into the crowd scene the first act opens with. But also, how that famous opening motif works its way into the score so that when it finally fully appears, it’s more foreboding than celebratory. Also, the doom motif at the end of the overture.
Recommended: Met Opera 2010 recording starring Garança and Alagna.
Donizetti’s Don Pasquale and Roberto Devereux. Also, L’elisir d’amore is actually really funny and the characters are interesting.
Yesss!! What an excellent point and I appreciate the way you applied it to different situations.
"La Donna e Mobile" was just one of those catchy tunes until I saw the opera on PBS (I think it was the same production shown here). I had the captions on. Not only did I finally see the whole opera but reading the words and having them sink in really made me appreciate the story and the implications of the characters actions.
Wonderful video, thanks
This is a brilliant video. Thank you.
I would suggest that rather than merely listening to the completes score of a full ballet or opera, if you want the full effect, you'll need to go see the full production, or at a minimum, a good video of a full production. Once you've done that for a given work, you can listen either to the full scores or even to excerpts and may be able to bring back that memory to enhance your appreciation of them.
You don't miss 'the point' because there's not a singular point to get. There are many. If you enjoyed something, you got 'a' point. And there's no real hierarchies among 'points'.
It's a question of whether to engage the mind or the emotions. In classical opera, even native speakers are hard-pressed to understand the words, much less follow the plot without doing a lot of prep work. I listen to arias/songs if I love the melodies/harmonies, and rarely pay attention to the words. I'm quite happy just listening to the highlights.
Exactly! I am not a huge opera guy, but I do have a few arias on my Spotify. I'll listen to them and love the music, even though for the majority of them, I know none of the words or the context of the story. I still like the music, though.
But believe me it's much better to appreciate both meaning and music, and it's also a good way to learn languages. The problem is modern singers don't sing in a way that you can understand words... but you find plenty of great older versions.
There are captions for operas in other languages when watching in person. And from my experience the stories aren't super complicated so it's not too difficult to follow.
Was about to comment the same: I've seen a couple of operas with surtitles so I knew what was going on. Then again, I enjoy listening to Rammstein and I don't always know what the lyrics mean 😀
Operas on DVD have subtitles. I have heard that live performances these days do as well. You'd be surprised how natural it is to follow something like a movie in subtitles! I was once watching a Bollywood movie in Hindi and for a while even forgot that it wasn't in English! (It was Amir Khan's PK)
I think the listener's context is important to consider. Thanks to my father, I've been a life-long classical music lover and have attended several operas, symphonies, and ballets over the years. Unfortunately, between work and family, it's been years since I've had the time and attention to participate in close listening of whole works. Excerpts and arias are my compromise between not listening and listening to whole works.
Also, I believe that excerpts are a good "gateway drug" to help new listeners into the experience.
I saw Rigoletto at the Savonlinna Opera Festival in Finland
and the operas are performed on an island
so everyone (audience and performers) have to leave via a bridge.
Well at the end of the opera
Rigoletto says he is cursed
and discussing the opera on the bridge going to our hotel
I said that the curse of the Duke is that his role is performed
by a short fat tenor.
My interlocutor then pointed out that the short fat tenor
who had sung the Duke
was right behind us LOL
Another version of Rigoletto they used the assassin, Sparafucile
as a silent foreshadowing "spectre at the feast" character
who hangs around the action.
That worked so well.
I agree, but the fact is that it was almost impossible to see very much opera before the internet, and video formats before that. For most opera goers, you might have seen a production of The Pearl Fishers 2 or 3 times in a lifetime. Now you can see as many versions as you can find, and you might not even like what you find.
Indeed. I bought the DVD of Bizet's Carmen and found the entire opera hard to get into.
Mozart's Don Juan on the other hand I found much more enjoyable.
And while nearly everyone knows 'Siegfried's Funeral March' (much used in the popular swords & sorcery movie "Excalibur" of the 1980s), the opera itself is rather different.
This is not meant as an insult to those who love this opera by Wagner but in the opening stages, the mood is entirely different, as if it's an entirely different work by a different composer. We see Siegfried at work forging his sword (I think) and he's singing happily and merrily lalala I'm working in making a sword lalala it's like an Italian language comedic opera.
Yes and no. You paint kind of an idealized composer/artist vision of opera, but historically it's messier. The idea that the text should be "the mistress of the music" was thought of us as new at one time. Opera has been criticized for tropes like the soprano singing virtuosic runs in major keys before dying... then the audience applauds enough, and the story stops completely while the singer breaks the fourth wall and gives an encore, maybe even tossing in something from a different opera. Pearl Fishers has been criticized as having some of the best music set to the worst libretto in the repertoire. Even the librettists were quoted as saying something like "if we knew what a great composer we were working with, we would have tried harder." Modern musicals are sometimes put together all post modern from various songs that were not intended to match. Now some (me for example) might say a lot of these are bad musicals, but some are great successes. Opera that shows off the singer at the expense of anything coherent and plot related at times was likewise successful and important. It can also be important for shows to have "hits" that can stand on their own. Many composers go on to make suites out of parts of opera and ballet scores. Now maybe they'd say "if you like the suite, please go see the whole thing, you'll understand more!" but I don't know many would go so far as "when you go to my concert and listen to me conduct my the suite, you're missing the point."
Not to mention all the duds that are in some otherwise great works. Every major opera, or musical for that matter, has its less-memorable moments. I can't think of anything specific, but then again, that's precisely my point! lol
Oh I hate this breaking the fourth wall thing with applause and maybe encore so I mainly listen to Wagner as for whatever reason noone applauds in the middle of the opera no matter how great the singers.
It's just a thing that you don't do it there.
this is why Wagner is so good because he does it differently
If I'm going to engage in an entire opera or ballet I need a lot of help, including an audio description (particularly for ballet where I wouldn't have access to the visual element without it). Fortunately, RNZB and RNZO both provide these, together with touch tours where we get to see pieces of set and costume and sometimes talk with cast members. You've no idea what a difference that makes to some of us.
Yes! When I was still new to Classical Music, I went to go see The Nutcracker. I was super excited because I’ve heard the Suite before and wanted the full story. I show up, everything starts going, and… There’s zero dialogue. 😂 I honestly though ballet had dialogue. 🤦🏻♀️ I have a severe visual impairment, so I could barely make out what was visually happening - just a bunch a blurred figures spinning around, haha. So now, before I see an Opera or Ballet, I Google as much as I can about the plot and read, read, read. THEN I can go to a show and not get lost. Audio descriptions would help a ton, though, definitely.
I could saw this as some ost for videogames or movies/series that make some invitation to watch/play the entire thing, for examples in my life could be the theme of Howl moving castle, i listed that composition a lot before i watched the movie, but i watched the movie only because the theme made me curious about it, in my case i don’t think the context of the movie give more pleasure to enjoy more the OST but i still like the theme. In other hand the the first ost of doom (i think it is) give me a motivation to play thoses games i haven’t played any yet, is more about what title play first that make delay the opportunity to play the saga, but i pretty sure i will play doom in the future. Other example but about Music only, with the caretaker and they “It’s just a burning memory” and “everywhere at the end of time” is pretty popular that theme and i used to listen it, so knowing that it from an interesting concept i tried to listening complete i failed 😅, i listed like almost two hours before i fell sleep 😅, i was exhausted before listening so it was my bad, i will try listening again when i have more time because i still curious (also when i awake i was in the last stage and that was scary af). With Liszt’s transcriptions, reminicenses, fantasys, etc. about others composer make me want to listening the music that he cited and alos the composer, but also want to listen more about Liszt, so is a conflict of interest between listening to Liszt of others composers 😂
I want to the put the last example and i think is the most important in my life, in the game of Saints rows 2 also gta san andreas (also posteriors game in the saga of SR) has when you’re driving the option to select some music in the radio in my two favorite radio stations are in second place the dubstep one, and in first place the classical music one, in the time i was playing SR2 at my 8-13 years old (i think it was at that age idk 😅 don’t ask) so with those games my passion to listening classical music began, listening to arias and pieces in those games is a pretty amazing thing and even is other games or series/movies i listened to some excerpts os classical music before those games i think that GTA SA and SR2 are the most important because are the only active and direct to put classical, playing the games and put that music was my election and in whatever time i want to listen that music over and over so later it make me to listen more classical music and know more about it, and returning to play thoses games is pretty lovely for me because i can enjoy more to that radio station 😊
In conclusion even if is not that good to only listening the aria or the popular one about some set of music it can be helpful to want to listening more to the people interested to that type of music, is an invitation to listen the whole work or in other examples to play some game or watch a serie/movie so i enjoy those arias/pieces are popular because are from an amazing work that anyone can enjoy when they has the opportunity to listening and watch the opera or ballet ^^
The backstage of the Met’s Pearl Fishers where the tenor Polenzani was asked about the song and he said he’s always sung it in concerts and had no idea “he was lying the whole time!” And just, the way he says it-
So, um, the three of them totally run off into the forest together, OT3 is canon. Productions can have Zunga die in the fire he set to help them get away, or run after them, or anything else, but running after them is clearly the best choice.
I think you’re thinking of Zurga. Zuniga is from Carmen.
Great video as always Oscar !
Please, make a video about Arvo Pärt, he's so little known despite he's great music. He's carrying classical music respecting the formats and rules of it and sometimes innovating so much and so good you cannot dislike his music.
Wonderful video thank you! There are such beautiful ballets that swan lake comes in only 4th or 5th. Hard to imagine this hey?
The Swan Lake theme appears in its full form three times and all together with its variations six times and it always just notes: "it's a swan". In No 9 Flight of swans; no 10 a lake with swans as well in end of Act 2; and it also highlights when Odile arrives that Siegfried thinks it is his Swan-Odette and when then a swan is at the window. In the final scene it appears when Odette tells Siegfried that she has to fly away as swan and finally, it's the last sad swan song...
"last sad swan song..." Well stated! Thank you!
@@chocolatesouljah Well actually, this is quoted from the original libretto (; I hope to release my Swan Lake research results soon someday...(which means that I think that Swan Lake is a close and symbolic autobiography for Tchaikovsky himself...)
@@felicity1877 Hello, thanks for this! What an interesting concept on the "autobiographical" nature of Odette/Odile/Tchaikovsky. 🙏🏾 I shan't ever think of "Swan Lake" the same way again and I'm here for it! "Break a leg as we say in theatre," on the progress of your book!
@@chocolatesouljah Thank you for your interest! I will try to find a way to explain it without being too complicated. I'm doing research for such a long time and I was on some wrong paths...In a short version, one of the differences between the traditional story and the original ballet is that Princess Odette and her friends were not turned into swans, but they were from fairy origins/ swan maidens and enjoying this as freedom, but were threatened by the evil magic. And so, the swan is rather a symbol of poetry and music, and probably referencing to Tchaikovsky's composer self (and probably the homosexual relationships in his circle); and I think that the "Black Swan" could be inspired by his affair with singer Desiree Artot, the tragic ending perhaps inspired from Eduard Sack's shocking suicide, one of Tchaikovsky's students (Tchaikovsky would be haunted by this for the remaining of his life...)
@@felicity1877 Wow! That was stunning…
And compassionately written!
I teach young people theater and dance and one thing I instill or at least try to is ballet appreciation. There is a picture book I have probably from the 90s early 2000s with Swan Maidens in it I’m not sure where it is. But I wasn’t taken to it because it was more swan maiden than swan like. Now that I read your discourse on this I realize it could be a valuable part of helping children become more connected to the storyline. I could do creative movement regarding birds, Swan, and Swan meetings and so on.
so much you’ve revealed here and I feel like you did distill it in a way that was not complicated so you achieved your goal.
Thanks so much for opening my eye to so many possibilities in the art of ballet and Tchaikovsky.
Great appreciation from California. 🙌🏾
Great take! There is a lot of depth in these artworks that gets missed when you abstract the "greatest hits" and isolate them from the greater context.
You know what else is like classical ballet and opera in this regard? The traditional religious rites of Christendom, which gave birth to much of western classical music through its ancient Gregorian chant, medieval organum and Renaissance polyphony. A lot of the works of Palestrina and the like are not appreciated in full without also being plugged in to the liturgical cues, and the religion and piety that undergirds them. Like ballet and opera, these pieces get taken out of their intended context, and thus aren't sufficiently appreciated for their larger-scale function.
Quite enlightning.. 🤧
Don't forget how Verdi also uses La Donna to great dramatic effect at the end. Rigoletto is celebrating having finally killed the Duke when suddenly he hears the Duke singing in the distance. At first he tries to brush it off as mind games, but once he cannot take it anymore he throws open the sack to find his daughter stabbed and dying instead of the Duke
With such classy informed and lofty comments one must think nothing can be appreciated un-nitpicked and undressed, but indeed it can be, given an audience whose intelligence doesn't exceed their ability to use it in good taste.
Some of my non-ballet friends thought that the movements were as specific as something akin to American Sign Language, rather than grasping the whole picture expressed by the choreography.
Could you do more stuff with “Discovering Classical Music” (podcast)
@Sunny Island: What is the name of the opera?
I'm haunted because I cannot find it no matter how much I try to research it.
I'm still to this day searching for it
It was aired on PBS quite a long time ago. The special series had many Arts and Performances in it.
I think the series had the words "The Arts" in it.
Thank you for saying this! It's why I hate seeing CD's that are "Selections" or "Highlights" from various works. (The one I see most often is "The Messiah", which admittedly is neither an opera nor a ballet.)
Unfortunately, Rossini is played far too little. Just recently discovered his other opera's, and what a discovery. If you want opera and ballet, give Guillaume Tell a try. Not only the Sinfonia, the whole thing... You will not regret it.
Rossini is played plenty tbh.
@@terrymac6where? Which opera's? Just curious. Very difficult to get hold of video recordings of his opera's.
@@mdrakic there are plenty of performances available on TH-cam. Not all of them have video though. Look up "Rossini operas" on TH-cam there's plenty from different eras and it's free. Just this season there have been over 300 performances of Rossini operas.
@@terrymac6 bits and pieces of old recordings available here and there. Good luck finding a complete up-to-date recording of, say Maometto Secondo, Matilde di Shabran, Semiramide or Guillaume Tell. Or try buying one.
But if you do, please share and educate us.
@@mdrakic this isn't "up to date" but it's a recording of the opera, of several i saw when i searched this opera
th-cam.com/video/t2t97Li5Hew/w-d-xo.html
The most basic mistake we make with regard to opera is imagining it's music to be listened to. It's not: it's drama to be watched. Remove the visual aspect, the stage action, and you're missing an essential part of the experience.
I was surprised that you didn't mention Pagliacci, seeing as Vesti la guibba (and yeah I did look it up, I am not musically trained and i forget names!! my bad) is always used as a song to describe some huge revelation or breakthrough. Uhhhh. Yeah, it's more like a realization. IMO I think it's the most egregious example I can think of because it literally gets the emotion completely wrong. Once you find out the plot, nothing about it is amazing, it's just incredibly heartbreaking.
Never listened to Vesti la Giubba in this context, it is always played when someone is struck by an event of really bad luck, surprising or not.
As a classical composer here that is intending to write some operas in the future who is currently studying the Opera genre in school in History I don't agree with your take. I would be delighted, as a composer if 1 or more parts of a piece I write are so popular with the audience that they perform it on it's own. I don't see how that would be a disservice to the opera as a whole. If anything it sounds like good advertisement for the larger work, it makes the composer more famous and it might bring in some extra cash. With 1 Aria you can reach an audience that normally wouldn't go to an Opera or watch any large piece, you won't reach this audience with a big piece. This way you might get some of that group of people to come and see your work just of the excitement they feel on the 1 aria. Also most of the people in the group who aren't into large works won't ever listen to a full opera or go see one, so making a little bit of money because they stream or buy 1 Aria is not bad. A composer usually doesn't make much bank so any income is more than welcome. Also I think it's a bit problematic if we as a genre start acting like people should take our work more serious and invest energy into listening to large works. Yes the pay off is much bigger, but for most people nowadays it is too intimidating or looks like too much work. Acting like they are being in the wrong for listening to small pieces instead of the full work can make it worse. Since those people already think it's all too serious we would be playing into that and repulsing more people than we already do. Don't forget, the world doesn't owe us their attention, time, money and energy. We can do our best but ultimately it's up to them.
Who has heard the wealth of music that Tchaikowsky wrote for ballet but eliminated? It's beautiful and every bit as good as the completed ballet.
Yes yes yes da si si da I get the point, you're Mr. British classical man, I know your every word, maniacal laughter followed by fake crying.
I mostly tend to try discovering the whole piece after listening to a part from somewhere
You're right, you're right, stop being Mr. right, cause what you're saying, in my knowledge of this kind of stuff, I'm more than familiar, I know everything even without a formal academic education of music. I was born to love acoustic music and it drives me mad but in a good way more often than not.
Verdi is using irony...he is trying to say that men are fickle selfish heartbreakers and that they project their own faults onto others.
Thank you so very much
If I am enjoying an abstract painting without understanding why the artist made it or what it means to them does that negate its relevance to me? It’s effect on me? Doesn’t a work of art exist independent of the artist and their intentions after it is made public? And how do you define the limit of the larger context of the work? Do I need to make a review of all of their proceeding works? Do I have to have an understanding of contemporary artists and their works so that I can appreciate the context in which the artist worked? Do I have to have an education in art history so I can grasp the relevance of the artist relative to those artists whose shoulders he stood on? At what point does it become enough that I appreciate the work by itself?
not exactly the same but goes for mvmts in bigger works as well
There are a lot of operas in which there is only one song worth hearing. I'm talking to you, Dvorak.
Listening to an excerpt from a ballet or opera is different from sitting through an entire performance of a ballet or opera.
Who did not know this?
Chopin deserves a video in this channel.
I don't think we missed the point. We're just seeing a part of it.
Can you do Why listen to Tchaikovsky?
It's not as complex aas your examples, but one aria that I find people always misunderstand is "O mio babbino caro". People always focus on the title and think its a sweet song, which is very misleading. I always find it funny and also slightly horrifying when I see young girls performing it or people singing it to their fathers. If they knew the meaning and context of the aria, they most likely wouldn't do that!
Can you do a Why listen to Shostakovich
I'm working on composing an opera, and coming to it as a playwright (although it's not an original story, which could prove ots downfall since the copyright holder ios ignoring me), serving the story is really important.
Do you write that on commission? If not there is not a snowballs chance in hell it will ever be performed.
@@Quotenwagnerianer Nope. :(
@@Quotenwagnerianer I have a master's degree in film, and no one wants to read my scripts either. I became homeless seven years after I graduated because I'm medically limited to a desk job and couldn't find anything that would pay the rent.
@@scottandrewhutchins Then don't waste your time.
I work at an Opera and I have some limited insight into the decision making and what it takes the managers deciding which pieces to perform.
New Operas are only ever performed either on specific comission or if they have been comissioned elsewhere and already performed and proven to be worthwhile.
So unless you are an already established composer in other genres who then could say: "In case you are interested I have an Opera in my desk waiting to be performed", no one will take notice of your endeavour.
Imo the most ridiculous example is using Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen as a supposedly joyful soundtrack in commercials
La Donna e Mobile in pasta commercials.
Counterpoint: While you make an important point that the aria is only a part of a larger whole. Yet it is not possible for one who does not speak the language to appreciate the whole. Yet the arias have the musical strength to stand out on their own, even without the words. In the same way that a composer may write a really outstanding work, and yet still produce some that are mediocre, this should not prevent us from enjoying the best they have to offer. So one has a dilemma; shall I purchase libretti, or study Italian, French and German, then spend a boatload of money to purchase either an album or a ticket, or shall I simply listen to ¨King of the High Cś¨? And maybe even try to sing along in the privacy of my own home? I may live long enough to accomplish the first choice, but I can enjoy the second right now.
It is possible for one who does not speak the language to know the whole. Get it on DVD with subtitles. You'd be surprised how natural it is to follow a movie or something in subtitles!
Well I believe it’s the same as listening to a singular movement of any piece, not to ridicule this as long as you can concentrate on the importance of the thing you are listening to.
I disagree with the premise that a score/soundtrack must complement the movie. I have heard it so many times before. That view is wrong and dangerous. The score is an interpretation by a composer. It can stand on its own if the composer wants. It can complement the piece if the composer wants.
But we need to stop saying things in the imperative, that scores must complement movies🛑It is causing great harm and is devaluing composers work. Especially when these movies flop.
A little hard to take you too seriously when you can’t get the names of the characters correct! Rigoletto’s daughter’s name is pronounced with a soft ‘G’ (i.e. Jilda), not a hard ‘G’. The character in The Pearl Fishers is Zurga, not Zunga! Please do just a BIT of research before you send things out into the world on the internet - mistakes like this just make you look a little silly.
I, too, disagree with Oscar’s premise. Some listeners enjoy less than all songs in a Broadway musical and I think it’s natural for some people to like less than all songs in an opera. It’s also possible to love one song and not enjoy the story or the entire musical performances. What one appreciates in music is personal. Clearly, there’s no harm if one is exposed to an entire score. However, it does not follow that hearing only one or two moving and memorable pieces is, in any way, “wrong.”
The music needs to complement the story.
So I vehemently oppose performing opera untranslated.
You can re-watch a famous scene from a movie you like, but it's just not the same. Or maybe show it to a friend, who might be intrigued by it or say 'that's pretty cool', but still, not the same as watching the whole movie. The fact that most people in the comment section say you can do both is a bit troubling, in the sense that some people are a. completely divorced from the live theatrical experience and b. think of arias as 'songs' ... the fact that most people now stream music with ease doesn't help, it encourages skipping and shamelessly going back and forth between genres & artists. It's not the end of the world, but it's a bit sad to be honest, like losing the ability to fully appreciate something
Exactly what I thought man.
@@HABA300 I think that vast majority of people who would watch channels like this one on TH-cam to begin with, already do BOTH. Like myself (a professional pianist/organist/composer), I absorb entire operas, symphonies, movies, Classic rock, pop and jazz albums, world music etc. but than I can fully enjoy, analyze (for self education) or listen to individual songs, passages etc. Especially in film music vast majority of it is not cohesive composition or form wise, without a visual for what it was conceived for. But certain soundtracks work as Stand alone compositions (John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Miklos Rozsa, etc.) just like certain rock songs (“Money” from Pink Floyd’s Dark Side Of The Moon for example) work as stand-alone compositions. The real problem is that vast majority of human population are ignorant and shallow, lazy or intellectually incapable to delve deeper into anything. There you go 😅
No pointing out that the temple theme also intones the 'Dies Irae'!
But "ballet" are also on pop music videos ... for absolutely no reason.
Or most rock music videos has just the band on playback with no consideration of the song lyrics.
The ONLY music and videos that go side-by-side are ONLY the parody and comedy (music) videos (... and usually are also the songs that stick to a subject with no word salad fillers).
Half the reason I love undertale is because of all the leitmotifs
Performing a single piece taken from an opera or a ballet is NOT a problem. In fact, people who elevate ideology over music IS the biggest problem the music industry faces today. Take the Waltz of the Flowers for example, the piece itself is complete and there's nothing wrong with performing it independently. People are making a mistake when they obsess over the storyline and disregard the music itself. Ultimately, music CANNOT be about anything. Music is a unique art form, completely different from art forms such as novels and films, and we must treat it as such.
I think opera is very much NOT meant to tell the story. It is about giving arias, and the emotions they express, meaning and power. But still strong nonetheless.
🖒
"J" ilda
( pronunciation)
87% of the people going to any opera house know fully or care about the plot of the work. They go for the Artist and the music.
The dance sequences in Opera are often used as cues to go to the 🍸 bar. Can anybody reading this tell us what Mozart's IDOMENEO is about without looking it up?
What about the rite of spring lol
Completely disagree. Nowadays, a movie has to be PRODUCED. The Audio Order is 1) speech 2) noise 3) music.
An opera or ballet was created by a composer. The music is the initial thought.
With me, for the most people it is much to hard to concentrate on a dominating music action which is not musical fast food and the duration is more than 3 min.
Never buy a "suite," It's music that has been excerpted from a larger work- look for the complete work.
For example, if you're dopey enough to buy the Nutcracker Suite, you're gonna miss the must beautiful music in the entire ballet, the act 3 grand pas de deux
The reason I became infatuated with Wagner's entire 15+ hour Ring Cycle operas was wanting to know more about the story and how 'Ride of the Valkyries' and 'Siegfried's Death and Funeral' music fit into the whole story. I was learning the story but also all the leitmotifs that comprised the music to better understand why those small themes were chosen at every given moment.
Wagner's Operas are most rewarding to listen to with a complete libretto that includes all his original set descriptions and stage directions. It's immensly helpful to see the stage in your imagination.
120 'When the listener applies these rules'. What!!
I know these things as facts. I don't apply them a rules.
Beethoven may have used motifs as a unifying feature across movements in his symphonies. Listen to them I aware of his using that technique, but I am not applying that technique.
Talk of the lister 'applying: your three points is rot. Please write better.
Cheers! :?
That’s why I hate when they upload only audio from an opera to TH-cam
Opera is meant to be heard and seen at the same time
So what do you make of studio opera recordings? Especially ones that don't even include a libretto.
One problem with opera is that even if you go and watch it, you still don't understand it, because quite often it's in Italian, and even if it is in a language that you understand, the words are still distorted by vibratos and hard to pick up. Of course you can read up on it, and lots of opera houses provide subtitles, but this also doesn't give a satisfying experience.
I wish, someone would modernize some operas, like translating the lyrics into modern English, and have it sung by pop singers (with amplification), but keeping the melodies and harmonies from the original.
well given that the modern mind has the attention span of an amoeba it is either excerpts
OR NOTHING AT ALL
sorry, but that is the way it is.
i know your point. The Ride of the Valkyries in context of the whole opera IS UTTERLY ELECTRIFYING and i have listened to entire operas in single sittings ( hey, I even played in pit orchestras for live performances of opera.
but modern audiences do not care. they want not only cheap thrills but quick ones
IThe character's name in the Pearl Fishers is "ZuRga", not "ZuNga",,,, also you pronounce the name "Gilda" incorreclty. It's pronounced with a soft (not a hard)"G"
Also, please get the Character names right....
An interesting but ultimately a narrow and gatekeeper-y way of looking at things. This is not one of your best takes on subject.
Why should I listen to Chopin???????????????????
How can someone miss the point, if they have never listened to the whole thing?
It's not ZuNga, but ZuRga....
It’s “ZuRga”, not “Zunga”
haha, who made these "rules" of how people must listen to us?