Such a shame this was never done. Imagine how much better it would be in Sydney with this plan in place? And being able to get to Manly and the lower north shore by rail would have been fantastic.
That would have been amazing. Just imagine travelling to Manly without the need to hop on to a boat or having to drive to go to that beach. Or just to be able to go to places like Lapa without needing a car.
I've always wondered why the lower North Shore doesn't have a Train Line that either branches off at say Chatswood, or going with the original plan, and then turning North to form a Northern Beaches line, up as far as Whale Beach. Can't see why not, can you?
What a visionary plan! It would have mitigated the hellacious traffic going over the Harbour Bridge. Some of this plan could be revisited and integrated into future expansion of the network. I’ve liked and subscribed.
It would interesting to overlay the Bradfield plan with a map of Sydney’s tram network. I imagine there’s a lot of overlap given there were 230km of tramways.
Thanks fo shining a light on Bradfield’s plans. I have a couple of comments and corrections. 1. The platforms at Wynyard, the eastern tracks in the Harbour Bridge and the stub tunnels at North Sydney were all part of Bradfield’s Mosman and northern beaches railway plan. Bradfield made provision in his plans for long term expansion, and when the bridge was about to open it was decided that these tracks would be used by trams as an interim measure. 2. In his later plans Bradfield changed the route for his proposed inner west line. It would have run into Town Hall then formed a second CBD loop via a couple of stations near Hunter St to link into the St James station centre platforms from the north, with the eastern suburbs line running south from here, the only remnant of this that was built was the additional platforms at Town Hall which were bused for years until they became part of the ESR. 3. Returning to the northern beaches railway, from Wynyard this would have run south through the centre of the CBD, interchanging with second CBD loop at Hunter St before running to a station west of Central, more or less where the ESR platforms are today. It would then have rejoined the tracks to Central.
Thanks for the comment! I've heard of all 3 of your points before, but I've not seen an actual source on it. For my video, I show the 1916 map, but I based a lot of the information on the 1912, 1916 and 1924 reports, none of which have mentioned that. I'm very much willing to be corrected, and it would make sense, I just no have solid evidence for it. If I ever do find something similar in a report, I'll either add it to the description of this video, or make a new video on it!
Great plans and video. Only problem is the city has changed so much in the intervening years. No one was thinking of an International Airport in 1912, nor running a line up to the holiday resort areas of Sydney upper Northern Beaches. Population densities around Sydney have changed so much we are now playing catch-up with all transport systems. My Aunt worked with Mr Bradfields family from around 1925 and through all the Bridge building time. He was a true visionary and a great planner, but he didn't seem to take anyone on his journey. What's done is done we just have to live with what we have got and put more effort into getting the transit systems going properly.
It's unfortunate that we have to play catch up in this way. But thankfully we had people with grand plans to build a better city. It's just a shame the current government isn't like that anymore.
Great video! Though 00:45 Wynyard has never been pronounced “Win yard”, but contracted, like how we say “Melbn”, it’s “Wynyd” and 1:30 Rozelle is pronounced, “ROSE el” and 2:43 Coogee is pronounced “COULD-jee (Not like how they pronounce it in Western Australia)
Don't worry, a few of my friends have spotted my mispronounciations and have already made fun of me for it :) I may live in Sydney, but it's pretty clear I didn't grow up here.
@@yran_kinleni5917 Thanks! I'm a big fan of HSR, but I really don't Perth to Adelaide HSR would ever be viable. It's just too far, too remote, and nowhere near enough people, and it doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon.
That's the first time I've ever seen the entire Bradfield plan laid out, thank you! Even now as the costs of new Metro lines go through the roof and there is already talk of saving cost overruns by not converting an already functional train line from Sydenham to Bankstown to a metro, there are proposals for future extensions or metro lines - often to sparsely populated outlying areas with the assumption that the rail service will cultivate new communities. I'm sure Bradfield had that in mind for many of his plans and I suspect many of today's proposals will meet the same fate as his Northern Beaches proposal.
A line to Manly and the rest of the Eastern Suburbs would have been amazing. Those two areas are completely not serviced at all now. Although I've seen multiple sources about a new Metro line coming off from Waterloo into the Eastern Suburbs and down to at least Pagewood. That could be 50 years away still though.
Thanks for the excellent overview of Bradfield's plans. When you look at it you sort of wonder why modern day planners seem to have largely ignored it? The stations sites under Balmain, Drummoyne, Five Dock, Rozelle made perfect sense then and even more sense now.If I had been designing the current Metro that exactly where i would have put them!
Thanks! As for your comment, it's not really been ignored. Sydney Metro west is kinda follows a similar route, although it heads west via Pyrmont and not Balmain. Which is a shame, Balmain and Five dock deserve good rail access too.
@@CityConnectionsMedia And I suspect the well used 441/442 buses (that service Birchgrove and Balmain East) will in the future do a loop of The Bays station, and that will be a popular transfer in peak periods given the likely frequency of Metro West and Anzac Bridge traffic
Nice history background video about Sydney's Bradfield plan which had quite the vision back then, although the end of the video felt pretty sudden. When I discuss about Sydney transit, will definitely give you a recommendation.
Re the western suburbs connection @4:25. The final plan was to have this line branch off from Town Hall, not Wynyard. Town Hall lower level platforms 4 & 5 were in fact built for this purpose and sat unused until the current eastern suburbs line connected to the stub tunnels and station in the late '70s. There were at least two royal commissions into the route before Bradfield could build anything, reason being that CBD landowners wanted to avoid resumption. These landowners had money and political influence. Thus, the tunnels and stations built are mostly under road or public land. St James was designed for an eastern subs to western subs interchange - east via Oxford St, west via a tight loop through Bridge, O'Connell, Pitt Streets to Town Hall and viaduct bridge across Cockle Bay. The Northern Beaches connection to Wynyard platforms 1-2 was to continue south to a "Great Southern Railway" towards Mascot. Bradfield planned an east-west connection via St James/Town Hall and a north-south connection via North Syd/Wynyard.
It’s interesting to imagine the Sydney rail network connecting all those places, but draw a service diagram and consider all those flat junctions and branches, you’d be lucky to get two trains an hour. Not to mention how ambiguous some of those elevation changes were, you’d need a lot of tunnelling and bridges. This network would have made the Sydney rail network like Melbourne is today, with a congested city centre and infrequent suburban services, Sydney would have likely become even more sprawling and car dependent. If we did build this network we’d probably be struggling to build mega projects in the CBD to untangle all these lines, like the Melbourne Metro tunnel. Now I want to draw a network diagram and figure out how these branches might have been separated into metro lines…
Town Hall station has 6 platforms, but 2 of them are only used by the Eastern Suburbs line. Without this, what would have used the other 2 platforms on the lower level?
Those would have been for the Northern Beaches line. They would have run across the harbour bridge (using the Eastern side, where the trams used to run), and then out to North Sydney where they would have branched off that way.
That plan was never going to get up and it’s foolish and representative of a young inexperienced generation that think it was. Few governments would plan so many lines in the 20th century and actually follow through to funding all of them. There’s not enough money and they don’t remain in power long enough. You’re lucky if they pick one or two prestige projects and run with them at best. The Eastern suburbs line a case in point. All that effort and money and all we got was what, 4-5 stations (and one not even completed) with a relatively short line that ends far short of where it should be going and absolutely no plans or desire since to extend it further. Planning these days is often not ‘what we need and what actually will be useful’ but more along the lines ‘what will get us elected/keep us in power’ Great video by the way.
While I agree I agree that this plan was not viable, I wouldn't neccesarily describe it as foolish. Like I said in the video, this plan wasn't because Sydney needed it now, but because they knew Sydney would grow and the city would need it in future. I think it's also important to remember that the way we view rail projects in 2023 and in the early 20th century is very different. Today, rail is often seen as somewhat optional, but it used to be viewed as essential. That's why a city of 800,000 people at the time was looking to build so many rail lines. When we talk about rail today, no one is going to propose something akin to the City Circle for Newcastle or the Gold Coast. Even though they're similar to Sydney in terms of population when the City Circle was built. This is kinda a fun topic to talk about, so I might do a video in future talking about how different people at different times view public transport projects. Thanks for the compliment btw!
We are all aware of the machinations at play here as to why certain projects get done etc etc. The fact remains however that Sydney would be a different, better planned and easier to live in city if these rail connections were all made. Bradfield couldn't have foreseen the amount of gentrification that would result. Successive governments have twisted themselves ragged trying to build roads in the impossible jungle of sydney. The rail network would have alleviated the struggle for them. It would have improved the day to day life of the citizens and decreased the gap between the haves and the have nots.
Could you imagine a parallel universe where all of Bradfield's plans were enacted and built for these railways? It would have been great to get to Manly and the Northern Beaches by rail.
The shot of Wynyard at 3:20 reminded me of sometime in the late '50s. My father lifted me up so I could see the trams which were over the wall on the right of this image. Also, in the late 60s and early 70s I recall there were still two separate platforms at St James.
Good ol' nostalagia! Also, I believe you might be correct, I did see one or two things about the platforms remaining for a long time, but I wasn't able to confirm it.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Up til 1971 I'd pass through St James often on the weekend. I'm absolutely certain the platforms were separated at that time. I recall going there much later, possibly early 1990s, and being surprised that the centre tracks had been filled in.
Honestly though, the design with its junctions and branch lines would have compounded the problems with Sydney’s network, which is having certain sections (like the main suburban line) pushed to capacity, while struggling to maintain adequate frequency at the extremities. The eastern suburbs line continuing to the Illawarra line and remaining seperate was a far better design. The fact that it stops at Bondi junction is another issue entirely as it would be far easier to extend and provide great service as it is, than what Bradfield suggested. Likewise, the new metro lines and light rail lines working independently of the main network is great for fault isolation and reliability. It’s easy to get caught up with starry eyed projections about what this network would be like, but you have a better network today than you would have had otherwise.
While you mentioned St James and North Sydney, you forgot to mention the tunnels built out of Wynyard in anticipation of the additional North Shore routes - I believe the tunnels are still used as an entrance to a parking lot which occupies space which would have been Wynyard Platforms 1 and 2.
I've heard that claim before, but I've never seen a source to verify it. It's not in any of the plans by Bradfield, since all they all show the lines brnaching off at North Sydney. As far as I know, platform 1/2 at Wynyard was solely for trams, but I'm very much willing to be corrected.
@@CityConnectionsMedia While Wynyard's platform 1 & 2 and the eastern side of the Harbour Bridge was used by trams for the majority of its life, the original intention was for railway use with plans from the beginning to revert it back to the railways when demand see fit (i.e an extension to the North Shores), alas car centric planing never saw this come to fruition with the eastern side being paved over instead. This meant that the only time trains where on the eastern side was during construction and testing. Looking at footage and photographs, you can see the infrastructure was defiantly for heavy rail, with large tunnels towards Wynyard, ramps at Milsons Point station to bring trams to a level hight upon the intended railway platform, the bridge at 4:33 which used to convey trams coming in towards the railway line before veering along side it, and centenary and overhead wire reminiscent of the railways to name a few. Trolley Wire Issues No. 334 & 335 has a two part article by Dale Budd (linked below) discussing the push-pull dynamic of whether trams should run over the bridge or be exclusively for trains, with images containing the above. No. 334: www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/members.old/Trolley_Wire/334%20-%20Trolley%20Wire%20-%20Aug%202013.pdf No. 335 www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/members.old/Trolley_Wire/335%20-%20Trolley%20Wire%20-%20Nov%202013.pdf
They were definitely there. For some time they were part of a carpark entrance and exit, I remember using them. They are no longer accessible after further development.
Bradfield was a great engineer and planner. It's a great pity that his plans were not properly adopted. I wonder what the cost of his bridge over Middle Harbour would have cost? A very, very large sum, I'd imagine.
Absolutely fantastic first video! The only thing I'd suggest is maybe slowing down with the voiceover a bit - at times it felt a bit fast and hard to keep track of
I have no connection to Sydney, but I can understand the tragedy of understanding what could have been had things been better. Australia is such a prime candidate for HSR and of course all cities are prime candidates for proper, grade separated, mass transit. Thanks for sharing!
What a truly grand scheme for a rail project of a bygone era, and it is a shame that it was never fully realised, because it'll solve the foreshadowing road traffic problems that would happen from the 50s. As a supporter for rail transportation, and being an alternate history imaginer, I would easily picture an alternate 1960s Sydney, where most (if not all) of Bradfield's proposed lines are built (some as heavy suburban rail, and some others as rapid-transit metro; yes in my alternate universe I've backdated Sydney Metro by over 60 years), with several modifications.
The chances of the cosmopolitan, exclusive and secluded waterside suburbs of Balmoral and Athol gaining metro stations and a metro line now is truly less than zero.
@@cc1210 For Balmoral and Athol? There is absolutely *zero* chance for Athol to ever gain a new metro line, as constructing an expensive transport link for the few hundred multi-millionaires who live in their waterfront houses makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. No sane NSW Premier would ever propose this, for the most obvious of political reasons. As for the Northern Beaches gaining a metro line, this is not realistic either as the area is just not growing like the west and south western areas of Sydney. This also explains why the eastern suburbs rail line will never be extended to Bondi Beach. Money can only be spent once, so it makes sense to maximise the return on investment where the most people will benefit. Again, this is west and southwest of the Sydney CBD.
Dear Sir, I would like to point out that a lot of the the South east line were built as tram lines as well going as far as To Ryde, with trams running to most of the southern beaches and the northern beaches starting from Manly Wharfe as far as Larrabee. I hope you find this interesting. Douglas Brooks.
The pronunciation of Coogee and Wynyard suggests someone who has not lived in Sydney. Bradfield wanted lots of tunnels that had to be dug through sandstone (no boring machines then) large enough to accommodate the trains he had designed for the electrification of the city rail network. These had a pantograph on top and needed much larger and more expensive tunnels than London's Tube or the Paris Metro. For a budget conscious government, much of Bradfield's network was well served by trams. They would be simply replacing one transport network with another at a vast cost. One can speculate as to what effect the Bradfield plan would have had on Sydney's growth but postwar the urban spread grew along rail corridors that existed before the plan and into areas that were not covered by the plan.
You are incorrect! I do live in Sydney, I just didn't grow up here. I grew up in Newcastle, which is why my pronounciations are off. Also, you are correct on your other comments. To my knowledge, one of the main reasons the government was less interested in the other lines was because they were well served by trams. It also isn't shown in the video, but a lot of the new lines were to be above ground.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Flatted with a Newcastle girl back in ancient times and she had no problem saying k'gee bay hotel. Even after a few drinks. Or even after a lot of drinks. When it comes to the other, think Melb'n and Brisb'n and call it Wyny'd. Or it was that way when I departed Sydney 30 years ago.
It's probably more that I just didn't travel to Sydney much before I moved there, so I never had a chance to learn how to pronouce suburb names, or maybe younger novocastrians just can't pronouce Sydney names. Could be either or :)
You should have talked about the platforms at Town Hall now used for the Eastern Suburbs railway. Good video. IMHO most of those unbuilt projects would have been ridiculously expensive to build and been a poor use of resources given the low population density around them. Why did Bradfield think Watsons Bay needed a railway? A north-south route through Parramatta should have been planned to allow that to be much more accessible.
This is backwards. If its easy to commute from somewhere, people will move there. You want to build rail to where its currently sparse and land is cheap and construction is easy. I've seen pictures from 100 years ago of subways running to literal farmland. The development pattern works.
(2:53) Rosebery Park Racecourse - my grandfather had money in pony racing there. I had to double check - yes, pony racing. Now, the densely populated suburb of Eastlakes. Only public transport is buses. The main road (Gardeners Road) joins the M8 toll road with the Eastern beaches area of Sydney, and when it's not 2 lanes either way, during peak hour traffic, it's 1 lane either way. And during a summer weekend, for example, that spells disaster. A train through (the now) Eastlakes would have been ideal. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Bradfield's foresight would have been better.
I feel like I've heard this same basic story before. I could take the transcript from this video, replace only the names of the specific people and locations, and now its about the IND 2nd system plan in New York, right down to the wide platforms where tracks were meant to be and the tunnel bellmouths for unbuilt plans. The same basic story seems to unfold in every Western country. Its like we collectively forgot how to economically build good public works in the last 100 years.
I always thought the Bradfield scheme was to bring water from coastal rivers in the wet tropics to the inland drier areas of the continent to increase Australia’s agricultural output and to lessen the affect of droughts.
It goes to show how great vision, planning, design, and pre-emptive construction is always spoiled by politics. NSW has a long history of it. Thank you to the current government for bucking the trend. However, if they could focus on more on the small details it may negate the need for so many big projects. Not so many traffic lights, and upgrade major trunk routes with grade separation, and better designed roundabouts and intersections. It is currently start-stop for 10s of kms. Neville Wran probably was the biggest negator of progress which we're still trying to catch up on. 🤨
Too bad now that global #PeakOil hit in November 2018 and will only worsen in the years and decades ahead. Sydney will rue the day it abandoned these projects. I gather that missing Wynyard platforms 1 and 2 would have been additional lines for the North Shore branch lines.
I know at the time, Country lines were prioritised and then there was the War, But seriously why they weren't built. Sydneywould be a much better city wih those train lines -_-
Such a shame this was never done. Imagine how much better it would be in Sydney with this plan in place? And being able to get to Manly and the lower north shore by rail would have been fantastic.
We need more people voting independent to hold both sides to account
and cheaper....so wise for Japan starting their bullet trains in the 50's
Yes, when planning was truely planning with a vision for the future and public good front and centre.
That would have been amazing. Just imagine travelling to Manly without the need to hop on to a boat or having to drive to go to that beach. Or just to be able to go to places like Lapa without needing a car.
I've always wondered why the lower North Shore doesn't have a Train Line that either branches off at say Chatswood, or going with the original plan, and then turning North to form a Northern Beaches line, up as far as Whale Beach. Can't see why not, can you?
What a visionary plan! It would have mitigated the hellacious traffic going over the Harbour Bridge. Some of this plan could be revisited and integrated into future expansion of the network.
I’ve liked and subscribed.
It would interesting to overlay the Bradfield plan with a map of Sydney’s tram network. I imagine there’s a lot of overlap given there were 230km of tramways.
Thanks fo shining a light on Bradfield’s plans. I have a couple of comments and corrections.
1. The platforms at Wynyard, the eastern tracks in the Harbour Bridge and the stub tunnels at North Sydney were all part of Bradfield’s Mosman and northern beaches railway plan. Bradfield made provision in his plans for long term expansion, and when the bridge was about to open it was decided that these tracks would be used by trams as an interim measure.
2. In his later plans Bradfield changed the route for his proposed inner west line. It would have run into Town Hall then formed a second CBD loop via a couple of stations near Hunter St to link into the St James station centre platforms from the north, with the eastern suburbs line running south from here, the only remnant of this that was built was the additional platforms at Town Hall which were bused for years until they became part of the ESR.
3. Returning to the northern beaches railway, from Wynyard this would have run south through the centre of the CBD, interchanging with second CBD loop at Hunter St before running to a station west of Central, more or less where the ESR platforms are today. It would then have rejoined the tracks to Central.
Thanks for the comment!
I've heard of all 3 of your points before, but I've not seen an actual source on it. For my video, I show the 1916 map, but I based a lot of the information on the 1912, 1916 and 1924 reports, none of which have mentioned that. I'm very much willing to be corrected, and it would make sense, I just no have solid evidence for it. If I ever do find something similar in a report, I'll either add it to the description of this video, or make a new video on it!
Great plans and video. Only problem is the city has changed so much in the intervening years. No one was thinking of an International Airport in 1912, nor running a line up to the holiday resort areas of Sydney upper Northern Beaches. Population densities around Sydney have changed so much we are now playing catch-up with all transport systems. My Aunt worked with Mr Bradfields family from around 1925 and through all the Bridge building time. He was a true visionary and a great planner, but he didn't seem to take anyone on his journey. What's done is done we just have to live with what we have got and put more effort into getting the transit systems going properly.
It's unfortunate that we have to play catch up in this way. But thankfully we had people with grand plans to build a better city. It's just a shame the current government isn't like that anymore.
Great video!
Though 00:45 Wynyard has never been pronounced “Win yard”, but contracted, like how we say “Melbn”, it’s “Wynyd”
and 1:30 Rozelle is pronounced, “ROSE el”
and 2:43 Coogee is pronounced “COULD-jee (Not like how they pronounce it in Western Australia)
I say Wynyid, so Aussie.
Don't worry, a few of my friends have spotted my mispronounciations and have already made fun of me for it :)
I may live in Sydney, but it's pretty clear I didn't grow up here.
@@yran_kinleni5917 Maybe I mispronouncing things in future. The algorithm does like people commenting...
@@yran_kinleni5917 Nah, I'd much rather make good videos than crap ones
@@yran_kinleni5917 Thanks!
I'm a big fan of HSR, but I really don't Perth to Adelaide HSR would ever be viable. It's just too far, too remote, and nowhere near enough people, and it doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon.
That's the first time I've ever seen the entire Bradfield plan laid out, thank you!
Even now as the costs of new Metro lines go through the roof and there is already talk of saving cost overruns by not converting an already functional train line from Sydenham to Bankstown to a metro, there are proposals for future extensions or metro lines - often to sparsely populated outlying areas with the assumption that the rail service will cultivate new communities. I'm sure Bradfield had that in mind for many of his plans and I suspect many of today's proposals will meet the same fate as his Northern Beaches proposal.
A line to Manly and the rest of the Eastern Suburbs would have been amazing. Those two areas are completely not serviced at all now. Although I've seen multiple sources about a new Metro line coming off from Waterloo into the Eastern Suburbs and down to at least Pagewood. That could be 50 years away still though.
I thought people in the east don’t want trians
lovely video. i am apart of the first 10 club which will surely grow with this much effort put in. props for giving me new information.
Thanks! I plan on making regular videos, so hopefully I don't dissapoint.
Thanks for the excellent overview of Bradfield's plans. When you look at it you sort of wonder why modern day planners seem to have largely ignored it? The stations sites under Balmain, Drummoyne, Five Dock, Rozelle made perfect sense then and even more sense now.If I had been designing the current Metro that exactly where i would have put them!
Thanks!
As for your comment, it's not really been ignored. Sydney Metro west is kinda follows a similar route, although it heads west via Pyrmont and not Balmain. Which is a shame, Balmain and Five dock deserve good rail access too.
@@CityConnectionsMedia And I suspect the well used 441/442 buses (that service Birchgrove and Balmain East) will in the future do a loop of The Bays station, and that will be a popular transfer in peak periods given the likely frequency of Metro West and Anzac Bridge traffic
Could be, although I'm not too familiar with the public transport in that area so I can't comment to much.
I admire your faith in NSWGR 1920s tunneling techniques under Darling Harbour.
Great video, thanks. Also thanks for the sources.
Nice history background video about Sydney's Bradfield plan which had quite the vision back then, although the end of the video felt pretty sudden. When I discuss about Sydney transit, will definitely give you a recommendation.
Thanks!
I agree, I'm going to try and see how I can improve it in future.
Re the western suburbs connection @4:25. The final plan was to have this line branch off from Town Hall, not Wynyard. Town Hall lower level platforms 4 & 5 were in fact built for this purpose and sat unused until the current eastern suburbs line connected to the stub tunnels and station in the late '70s. There were at least two royal commissions into the route before Bradfield could build anything, reason being that CBD landowners wanted to avoid resumption. These landowners had money and political influence. Thus, the tunnels and stations built are mostly under road or public land. St James was designed for an eastern subs to western subs interchange - east via Oxford St, west via a tight loop through Bridge, O'Connell, Pitt Streets to Town Hall and viaduct bridge across Cockle Bay. The Northern Beaches connection to Wynyard platforms 1-2 was to continue south to a "Great Southern Railway" towards Mascot. Bradfield planned an east-west connection via St James/Town Hall and a north-south connection via North Syd/Wynyard.
It’s interesting to imagine the Sydney rail network connecting all those places, but draw a service diagram and consider all those flat junctions and branches, you’d be lucky to get two trains an hour. Not to mention how ambiguous some of those elevation changes were, you’d need a lot of tunnelling and bridges. This network would have made the Sydney rail network like Melbourne is today, with a congested city centre and infrequent suburban services, Sydney would have likely become even more sprawling and car dependent. If we did build this network we’d probably be struggling to build mega projects in the CBD to untangle all these lines, like the Melbourne Metro tunnel. Now I want to draw a network diagram and figure out how these branches might have been separated into metro lines…
Town Hall station has 6 platforms, but 2 of them are only used by the Eastern Suburbs line. Without this, what would have used the other 2 platforms on the lower level?
Those would have been for the Northern Beaches line. They would have run across the harbour bridge (using the Eastern side, where the trams used to run), and then out to North Sydney where they would have branched off that way.
That plan was never going to get up and it’s foolish and representative of a young inexperienced generation that think it was.
Few governments would plan so many lines in the 20th century and actually follow through to funding all of them. There’s not enough money and they don’t remain in power long enough.
You’re lucky if they pick one or two prestige projects and run with them at best. The Eastern suburbs line a case in point.
All that effort and money and all we got was what, 4-5 stations (and one not even completed) with a relatively short line that ends far short of where it should be going and absolutely no plans or desire since to extend it further.
Planning these days is often not ‘what we need and what actually will be useful’ but more along the lines ‘what will get us elected/keep us in power’
Great video by the way.
While I agree I agree that this plan was not viable, I wouldn't neccesarily describe it as foolish. Like I said in the video, this plan wasn't because Sydney needed it now, but because they knew Sydney would grow and the city would need it in future. I think it's also important to remember that the way we view rail projects in 2023 and in the early 20th century is very different. Today, rail is often seen as somewhat optional, but it used to be viewed as essential. That's why a city of 800,000 people at the time was looking to build so many rail lines. When we talk about rail today, no one is going to propose something akin to the City Circle for Newcastle or the Gold Coast. Even though they're similar to Sydney in terms of population when the City Circle was built.
This is kinda a fun topic to talk about, so I might do a video in future talking about how different people at different times view public transport projects.
Thanks for the compliment btw!
We are all aware of the machinations at play here as to why certain projects get done etc etc. The fact remains however that Sydney would be a different, better planned and easier to live in city if these rail connections were all made. Bradfield couldn't have foreseen the amount of gentrification that would result. Successive governments have twisted themselves ragged trying to build roads in the impossible jungle of sydney. The rail network would have alleviated the struggle for them. It would have improved the day to day life of the citizens and decreased the gap between the haves and the have nots.
Could you imagine a parallel universe where all of Bradfield's plans were enacted and built for these railways? It would have been great to get to Manly and the Northern Beaches by rail.
The best part of the Sydney rail network: it was designed to have zero level crossings.
The shot of Wynyard at 3:20 reminded me of sometime in the late '50s. My father lifted me up so I could see the trams which were over the wall on the right of this image. Also, in the late 60s and early 70s I recall there were still two separate platforms at St James.
Good ol' nostalagia!
Also, I believe you might be correct, I did see one or two things about the platforms remaining for a long time, but I wasn't able to confirm it.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Up til 1971 I'd pass through St James often on the weekend. I'm absolutely certain the platforms were separated at that time. I recall going there much later, possibly early 1990s, and being surprised that the centre tracks had been filled in.
Bradfield was a visionary… train line through lower north shore to northern beaches… branch lines…
Oh well
Honestly though, the design with its junctions and branch lines would have compounded the problems with Sydney’s network, which is having certain sections (like the main suburban line) pushed to capacity, while struggling to maintain adequate frequency at the extremities.
The eastern suburbs line continuing to the Illawarra line and remaining seperate was a far better design. The fact that it stops at Bondi junction is another issue entirely as it would be far easier to extend and provide great service as it is, than what Bradfield suggested.
Likewise, the new metro lines and light rail lines working independently of the main network is great for fault isolation and reliability.
It’s easy to get caught up with starry eyed projections about what this network would be like, but you have a better network today than you would have had otherwise.
While you mentioned St James and North Sydney, you forgot to mention the tunnels built out of Wynyard in anticipation of the additional North Shore routes - I believe the tunnels are still used as an entrance to a parking lot which occupies space which would have been Wynyard Platforms 1 and 2.
I've heard that claim before, but I've never seen a source to verify it. It's not in any of the plans by Bradfield, since all they all show the lines brnaching off at North Sydney. As far as I know, platform 1/2 at Wynyard was solely for trams, but I'm very much willing to be corrected.
@@CityConnectionsMedia While Wynyard's platform 1 & 2 and the eastern side of the Harbour Bridge was used by trams for the majority of its life, the original intention was for railway use with plans from the beginning to revert it back to the railways when demand see fit (i.e an extension to the North Shores), alas car centric planing never saw this come to fruition with the eastern side being paved over instead. This meant that the only time trains where on the eastern side was during construction and testing.
Looking at footage and photographs, you can see the infrastructure was defiantly for heavy rail, with large tunnels towards Wynyard, ramps at Milsons Point station to bring trams to a level hight upon the intended railway platform, the bridge at 4:33 which used to convey trams coming in towards the railway line before veering along side it, and centenary and overhead wire reminiscent of the railways to name a few.
Trolley Wire Issues No. 334 & 335 has a two part article by Dale Budd (linked below) discussing the push-pull dynamic of whether trams should run over the bridge or be exclusively for trains, with images containing the above.
No. 334:
www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/members.old/Trolley_Wire/334%20-%20Trolley%20Wire%20-%20Aug%202013.pdf
No. 335
www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/members.old/Trolley_Wire/335%20-%20Trolley%20Wire%20-%20Nov%202013.pdf
They were definitely there. For some time they were part of a carpark entrance and exit, I remember using them. They are no longer accessible after further development.
th-cam.com/video/u6z_AWQifAo/w-d-xo.html
This will show P1 & P2 filmed in 2015.
Bradfield was a great engineer and planner. It's a great pity that his plans were not properly adopted. I wonder what the cost of his bridge over Middle Harbour would have cost? A very, very large sum, I'd imagine.
I'd assume so too. Unfortunatley, none of the reports I found mention it, so I can't really say.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Thanks
@@CityConnectionsMedia Thanks
Absolutely fantastic first video! The only thing I'd suggest is maybe slowing down with the voiceover a bit - at times it felt a bit fast and hard to keep track of
Thanks!
That's a known issue. I've tried to pace myself more in the video I'm working on at the moment.
I have no connection to Sydney, but I can understand the tragedy of understanding what could have been had things been better. Australia is such a prime candidate for HSR and of course all cities are prime candidates for proper, grade separated, mass transit. Thanks for sharing!
Concord and the suburbs needed a station then and need it now. It's an area similar in characteristic to Five Dock yet no station.
What a truly grand scheme for a rail project of a bygone era, and it is a shame that it was never fully realised, because it'll solve the foreshadowing road traffic problems that would happen from the 50s.
As a supporter for rail transportation, and being an alternate history imaginer, I would easily picture an alternate 1960s Sydney, where most (if not all) of Bradfield's proposed lines are built (some as heavy suburban rail, and some others as rapid-transit metro; yes in my alternate universe I've backdated Sydney Metro by over 60 years), with several modifications.
The chances of the cosmopolitan, exclusive and secluded waterside suburbs of Balmoral and Athol gaining metro stations and a metro line now is truly less than zero.
Shame it only took over a century to get there
Never say never
@@cc1210 For Balmoral and Athol? There is absolutely *zero* chance for Athol to ever gain a new metro line, as constructing an expensive transport link for the few hundred multi-millionaires who live in their waterfront houses makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. No sane NSW Premier would ever propose this, for the most obvious of political reasons.
As for the Northern Beaches gaining a metro line, this is not realistic either as the area is just not growing like the west and south western areas of Sydney. This also explains why the eastern suburbs rail line will never be extended to Bondi Beach.
Money can only be spent once, so it makes sense to maximise the return on investment where the most people will benefit. Again, this is west and southwest of the Sydney CBD.
Dear Sir, I would like to point out that a lot of the the South east line were built as tram lines as well going as far as To Ryde, with trams running to most of the southern beaches and the northern beaches starting from Manly Wharfe as far as Larrabee. I hope you find this interesting. Douglas Brooks.
I believe there was/is a police firing range in one of the disused tunnels.
Also, during WW2 there were bunkers down there as well.
The pronunciation of Coogee and Wynyard suggests someone who has not lived in Sydney. Bradfield wanted lots of tunnels that had to be dug through sandstone (no boring machines then) large enough to accommodate the trains he had designed for the electrification of the city rail network. These had a pantograph on top and needed much larger and more expensive tunnels than London's Tube or the Paris Metro. For a budget conscious government, much of Bradfield's network was well served by trams. They would be simply replacing one transport network with another at a vast cost. One can speculate as to what effect the Bradfield plan would have had on Sydney's growth but postwar the urban spread grew along rail corridors that existed before the plan and into areas that were not covered by the plan.
You are incorrect! I do live in Sydney, I just didn't grow up here. I grew up in Newcastle, which is why my pronounciations are off.
Also, you are correct on your other comments. To my knowledge, one of the main reasons the government was less interested in the other lines was because they were well served by trams. It also isn't shown in the video, but a lot of the new lines were to be above ground.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Flatted with a Newcastle girl back in ancient times and she had no problem saying k'gee bay hotel. Even after a few drinks. Or even after a lot of drinks. When it comes to the other, think Melb'n and Brisb'n and call it Wyny'd. Or it was that way when I departed Sydney 30 years ago.
It's probably more that I just didn't travel to Sydney much before I moved there, so I never had a chance to learn how to pronouce suburb names, or maybe younger novocastrians just can't pronouce Sydney names. Could be either or :)
I wished they built a train station in Paddington. Would have been right on my doorstep and made travelling so much easier
You plan for the population you're GOING to have, not the population you used to have.
well said
You should have talked about the platforms at Town Hall now used for the Eastern Suburbs railway.
Good video.
IMHO most of those unbuilt projects would have been ridiculously expensive to build and been a poor use of resources given the low population density around them. Why did Bradfield think Watsons Bay needed a railway?
A north-south route through Parramatta should have been planned to allow that to be much more accessible.
This is backwards. If its easy to commute from somewhere, people will move there. You want to build rail to where its currently sparse and land is cheap and construction is easy. I've seen pictures from 100 years ago of subways running to literal farmland. The development pattern works.
There are no tunnels built to the west because the current alignment for rail is different to what was in this map.
Instead of the M2 the "Victoria Rd - City to Parramatta" line would have been far more successful.
(2:53) Rosebery Park Racecourse - my grandfather had money in pony racing there.
I had to double check - yes, pony racing.
Now, the densely populated suburb of Eastlakes.
Only public transport is buses.
The main road (Gardeners Road) joins the M8 toll road with the Eastern beaches area of Sydney, and when it's not 2 lanes either way, during peak hour traffic, it's 1 lane either way.
And during a summer weekend, for example, that spells disaster.
A train through (the now) Eastlakes would have been ideal.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Bradfield's foresight would have been better.
I feel like I've heard this same basic story before. I could take the transcript from this video, replace only the names of the specific people and locations, and now its about the IND 2nd system plan in New York, right down to the wide platforms where tracks were meant to be and the tunnel bellmouths for unbuilt plans. The same basic story seems to unfold in every Western country. Its like we collectively forgot how to economically build good public works in the last 100 years.
Honestly, you're not wrong. Which is unfortunate :/
I always thought the Bradfield scheme was to bring water from coastal rivers in the wet tropics to the inland drier areas of the continent to increase Australia’s agricultural output and to lessen the affect of droughts.
That's the other one. Same guy too. I guess he just like trains and dams.
It goes to show how great vision, planning, design, and pre-emptive construction is always spoiled by politics.
NSW has a long history of it. Thank you to the current government for bucking the trend. However, if they could focus on more on the small details it may negate the need for so many big projects. Not so many traffic lights, and upgrade major trunk routes with grade separation, and better designed roundabouts and intersections. It is currently start-stop for 10s of kms.
Neville Wran probably was the biggest negator of progress which we're still trying to catch up on. 🤨
Hobart: what trains what are they--only traffic
It’s Winyud not Winyard.
Don't judge me, I'm foreign!
Lol at 'Win-YAHDD'
Museum used to be called Liverpool St? Wack
It looks like we did better without PPPs
Aust Post Bank NOW
Would have been maddd
Too bad now that global #PeakOil hit in November 2018 and will only worsen in the years and decades ahead. Sydney will rue the day it abandoned these projects. I gather that missing Wynyard platforms 1 and 2 would have been additional lines for the North Shore branch lines.
heh i bet i could live in that abandoned tunnel
Maybe if you ask the government nicely, they'll let you :)
koojee
winyard
Go away you creature
I know at the time, Country lines were prioritised and then there was the War, But seriously why they weren't built. Sydneywould be a much better city wih those train lines -_-
You can tell you're not from Sydney by the way you pronounced a bunch of those names.
You're correct, I'm originally from Newcastle
Instead we have more tunnels for cars so more gridlocks. Shame it was never completed.
crenmorne
Amateurish pronounciation of suburb names; you’re no local. Good video 👍
It's true, I'm a born and bred Novocastrian.