These series of videos are amazing, keeping history alive and relevant. Someone needs to send them to our current world leaders and some sections of the mainstream media that seem thirsty for a third installment.
As an "old man" of 65 and a lifetime reader of WW2 history, you gents make history fun, accessible, and informative. ( Great natural communicators). 10/10 again gents.
I was honoured, some years ago, to be a member of a military unit that was asked to attend a 43 Wessex Infantry Division commemorative event on Hill 112. Naturally we talked to a number of veterans whose stories were jaw dropping. One Veteran who was in 5 DCLI in July 1944 had returned for the first time since the battle, with his family. After relating his experiences he completely broke down in tears. Later on his family told me that they had never heard any of these experiences that their father had gone through. Prior to this visit he never spoke of the war. He told us that a Churchill Crocodile had bellied in near his position in Cornwall Wood. The crew couldn't remove the link between the tank and the trailer to enable the AFV to regain mobility so another tank came up and fired solid shot at close range at the link to sever it. Result: the trailer exploded, destroying both tanks, immolating the crews and a number of infantry in the proximity. Frightening. I never knew they had Crocodiles at Hill 112.
As a civilian Plant and Low-Loader operator I can imagine it’s quite a precarious job loading the Churchill with tracks that long onto that trailer What an amazing restoration, especially the truck and trailer too. I’m inspired to find out where these incredible machines are displayed and to see them first hand Great film, thank you
If you are enjoying walking the ground of Operation Market Garden with Jim and Al, please do like the videos and subscribe to the channel to show your support. Growing our TH-cam community will enable us to walk more ground and make more films! Thank you so much for watching!
I read a book about a guy who was commander of one of these. He said they rarely saw the results of their labours, but once or twice he got to see it and was humbled by the destructive and horrific nature of this weapon.
As a grown man of 36, with more family connection to the Navy.... this almost brought me to tears. Back in 2008 I was in the process of Joining the Army (Light Dragoons) - but a few life choices and situations over the years caused me to leave the UK and my ambition. I have never forgotten my Tank based interest and have many of the WW2 Memoirs (a lot of Jim's books) of the time. Bill Bellamy, David Render, Stuart Hills, the legend that is Stanley Christopherson, with John Foley and of course Andrew Wilson, to name a few of the great Authors/Veterans The Cromwell and Churchills have always been my favourites, yes, everyone bangs on about Panzers and Tigers and Panthers, but you know what? They all lost, despite the best engineering. As the mandate of the Sherwood Rangers would claim, from the German POV it was.."fickte nicht an"
This was the British tank that the Germans feared and hated. The flamethrower was horribly effective at clearing out entrenched positions in hedgerows and trees. "Hill 112 was not very high but it was the key to this part of Normandy as from its summit every move in the surrounding country could be observed. I belonged to a flame throwing unit of Churchill tanks and it was our job to take out the strong points with flame. Farmhouses would be turned into strong points by the Germans and with the enemy well dug in just shelling would not move them. The mortaring and shelling never stopped and several men were wounded in the open when they did not get to cover quick enough. There were also Tigers moving about and the first time I saw one my heart missed a beat. It was not fifty feet away, but on second glance I saw the crew were hanging out of the hatches where they had been shot; a 17 pounder anti tank gun hidden in the hedges had done for it but there was still German infantry hidden in the hedges so we went along flaming the hedgerows. When our infantry had been over the ground one of their majors came over and asked if we wanted to inspect our handiwork. We declined". Ernie Cox 141st Regiment Royal Armoured Corps.
The Germans didn't treat crocodile crews kindly if they captured any. The Churchill has a lovely chunky design. It was thickly armoured, but could go almost anywhere. Superb tank in my opinion.
Flamethrowers are a fearsome bit of kit full stop, but with the infantry held version at least you stand a chance as an infantryman to down the person carrying it if you throw enough lead in that direction. When the *tanks* start throwing fire at you, well that's a completely different kettle of napalm, especially when it's a tank with as much armour on it as a Churchill!
@@lyndoncmp5751 Sherman M-50 and the Sherman M-51, both often referred to abroad as the Super Sherman, were modified versions of the American M4 Sherman tank that served with the Israel Defense Forces from the mid-1950s to early 1980s.
Welcome!! Here’s the playlist of our Market Garden series so far… lots more episodes to come! th-cam.com/play/PL6c7sY9zou5UIHD8lpU8L3IMXnx7NtrL-.html&si=qf4wSa_MXz3OhFCd
My late father-in-law commanded a Croc later than 'Market Garden in early 1945, working as a 'Devilish Duo'; a combination of the AVRE Petard mortar thrower with his 'Crocodile' flame thrower. He maintained that the knowledge of the mere presence of this inhumane weapon system caused the demoralised German troops, at that late stage in the conflict poorly trained, sub-standard and often very young, to surrender or run. The Petard would hurl a shell to crack a bunker or reinforced strongpoint. The stunned unfortunates inside would be then immolated by a deluge of flame from the Croc; the flaming liquid seeping through the cracks or depriving those inside of oxygen. A fellow commander was berated by an outraged Heer officer that the usage of the Croc was "unfair and un-British!"
Churchill Mk7 is just on 39 tons, so a bridging weight badge of 40. People can say what they like about Shermans, but the Churchill has better armour, a lower profile, a more open interior (the transmission in the front of the sherman divides the driver and co driver positions, and the turret basket (which admittedly otften cut out) isolates the turret crew from the hull) lower ammunition storage (the thing that usually causes tanks to catastrophically explode is the primary ammo store getting hit, in the churchill it's on the hull floor a good entire metre below that of the Sherman's sponson ammo storage)and as many escape hatches as a man could want(1 in the floor(and a higher belly than the Sherman so you can more easily make use of it) 2 in the hull sides, and hull top, and then 2 in the turret, which are more or less acsessable to any member of the crew, you do not have a situation like in the Sherman, where there is a letter-box sized gap between driver and co-driver, or the early model shermans where they additonally had a single turret hatch). Churchill Mk7... well that's just the ultimate model.
I’m currently building a model Churchill on a tank transporter, this video is brilliant to use your uniforms for colour reference to the accompanying soldiers!
There were a few colour variations on tank overalls. Originally, they were black, but that was the same as German tankers so a potential hazard on the battlefield. British uniforms aren't my area so I'm not sure when the khaki here was most prevalent. My father used a set as overalls in the 70s that were brown.
My grandfather and his unit drove tank transporters from n.africa, to Italy and then the northern European campaign with the 7th armoured. So thankyou for this randomly ! If you (or anyone else ) have any good references for uk tank transporters … it would be much appreciated 👍
Glad you’re enjoying the videos - we loved making them and yes we are hoping to do other battles. More subscribers and a bigger audience will give us scope to do more so do like, subscribe and spread the word! Hope you caught the first series from Normandy - here just in case: th-cam.com/play/PL6c7sY9zou5XN02JZJvlmBWFSjHpckgAa.html&si=b5ObqHVQx18wx2xv
The Crocodile was one of the most effective weapons of WW2. The most effective weapon is the one that doesn't kill anyone, it just makes them surrender. The gunner would fire unlit fuel at the enemy. Then wait. Once you're soaked in an incredibly flammable liquid, with a large, heavily armoured metal lighter approaching, you tend to not want to resist any more.
I wonder what that flamethrower sounds like when it’s fired? The Vietnam era M68 “Zippo” flamethrower tank was amazingly loud when the flame gun fired. The roar it made was almost scarier than the flames.
There is a famous George Carlin sketch about flamethrowers: “The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.” To which we might add here "And they have a machine gun as well so I can't get too close!" -in answer to which the British came up with the Crocodile.
I mean if I had to be in ANY WW2 flame tank it would be a Croc. Firstly, you got that 152mm of frontal armour, so it kicks the Sherman croc, on that easily. Secondly, the primary flame storage, unlike that of most other flame tanks is external, so it kicks the KV1 flame tanks(which are the 2nd contender...) and on a trailer which can be ditched at the press of a button(by the driver I do believe). And thirdly, unlike most other flame tanks, you still got your gun for self defence! (which kicks most other flame tanks!)
Interesting your comparison with Tiger 1 terrifying allied tank crews and the Crocodile based on an infantry tank terrifying German infantry, is this proof of concept?
Considering how effective Molotov cocktail was against tanks in WW2, I've always wondered if a Churchill Crocodile could take out a Panther/Tiger with its flamethrower - even if it didn't leak in through hatches or observation slits, it could blind the crew until the flames went out. Obviously it would need to get within range or attack from an ambush position. Thoughts anyone? It's a cruel world.
Do like the Churchill, Crocodile or the other interpretations of it, but was the vision for the driver impaired, as he's sat back a bit, altho looking out front of course, from his position, surely the tracks on both sides were blocking peripheral outlook and were maybe unable to see the enemy, either infantry, tracked vehicles or tanks, at times? Any chance we could see some footage, if theres any out there, of the drivers eye view?
The Germans did have fixed flame fougasse devices, wired up to remote detonate, shooting a jet out, but from what I recall of the reports in the archive, nothing really mobile, a number of man-portable designs. Those were of course of much more limited range, as well as rather vulnerable to rifle fire.
They had flamethrower tanks, (flammenpanzer) and flamethrower halftracks too, in fact the UK, US, Russia and Germany all fielded them but the Crocodile was the better design by a country mile. We also had a Bren gun carrier thrower called 'Wasp'. The Croc was a result of planning to breach the Atlantic wall but really came into its own later on during the fight through Holland then the Siegfried Line and into Germany. Many people consider them to be contrary to convention for their cruelty but an equal amount of people consider them to be the opposite in that once the enemy learnt to recognise them for what they actually were they were they generally didn't stick around in their concrete pillbox long enough to find out if the rumours were true thus preserving their lives. If able the crews would sometimes shower the enemy position with unignited naptha gel and give them a chance to surrender before igniting it with the predictable horrible consequences. War is hell.
@DanielsPolitics1 no they didn't, the flamethrower was an addition fitted and fired from the front drivers area, look at all the accompanying black and white film they show you, the main gun is clearly still fitted to the tank turrets of the vehicles in this black and white footage
@@DanielsPolitics1 The flame projector replaced the front mounted Besa machine gun. The design of the conversion kit allowed the tank to retain it’s main turret mounted 75mm gun.
These series of videos are amazing, keeping history alive and relevant. Someone needs to send them to our current world leaders and some sections of the mainstream media that seem thirsty for a third installment.
As an "old man" of 65 and a lifetime reader of WW2 history, you gents make history fun, accessible, and informative. ( Great natural communicators). 10/10 again gents.
Thank you for the kind words.
I was honoured, some years ago, to be a member of a military unit that was asked to attend a 43 Wessex Infantry Division commemorative event on Hill 112. Naturally we talked to a number of veterans whose stories were jaw dropping. One Veteran who was in 5 DCLI in July 1944 had returned for the first time since the battle, with his family. After relating his experiences he completely broke down in tears. Later on his family told me that they had never heard any of these experiences that their father had gone through. Prior to this visit he never spoke of the war. He told us that a Churchill Crocodile had bellied in near his position in Cornwall Wood. The crew couldn't remove the link between the tank and the trailer to enable the AFV to regain mobility so another tank came up and fired solid shot at close range at the link to sever it. Result: the trailer exploded, destroying both tanks, immolating the crews and a number of infantry in the proximity. Frightening. I never knew they had Crocodiles at Hill 112.
As a civilian Plant and Low-Loader operator I can imagine it’s quite a precarious job loading the Churchill with tracks that long onto that trailer
What an amazing restoration, especially the truck and trailer too. I’m inspired to find out where these incredible machines are displayed and to see them first hand
Great film, thank you
2:37 When James says, "Crikey!" and I'm thinking, "CROCODILE Hunter!"
Eden Camp in Yorkshire are restoring their Churchill Crocodile to run at the moment. Will be great to see that one run
What makes this work is that you guys have so much fun making these videos. Thanks keep it up
If you are enjoying walking the ground of Operation Market Garden with Jim and Al, please do like the videos and subscribe to the channel to show your support. Growing our TH-cam community will enable us to walk more ground and make more films! Thank you so much for watching!
I read a book about a guy who was commander of one of these. He said they rarely saw the results of their labours, but once or twice he got to see it and was humbled by the destructive and horrific nature of this weapon.
That engine sound is great. Tuned nicely.
As a grown man of 36, with more family connection to the Navy.... this almost brought me to tears. Back in 2008 I was in the process of Joining the Army (Light Dragoons) - but a few life choices and situations over the years caused me to leave the UK and my ambition. I have never forgotten my Tank based interest and have many of the WW2 Memoirs (a lot of Jim's books) of the time. Bill Bellamy, David Render, Stuart Hills, the legend that is Stanley Christopherson, with John Foley and of course Andrew Wilson, to name a few of the great Authors/Veterans
The Cromwell and Churchills have always been my favourites, yes, everyone bangs on about Panzers and Tigers and Panthers, but you know what? They all lost, despite the best engineering. As the mandate of the Sherwood Rangers would claim, from the German POV it was.."fickte nicht an"
Great comment - thank you!
This was the British tank that the Germans feared and hated.
The flamethrower was horribly effective at clearing out entrenched positions in hedgerows and trees.
"Hill 112 was not very high but it was the key to this part of Normandy as from its summit every move in the surrounding country could be observed. I belonged to a flame throwing unit of Churchill tanks and it was our job to take out the strong points with flame. Farmhouses would be turned into strong points by the Germans and with the enemy well dug in just shelling would not move them. The mortaring and shelling never stopped and several men were wounded in the open when they did not get to cover quick enough. There were also Tigers moving about and the first time I saw one my heart missed a beat. It was not fifty feet away, but on second glance I saw the crew were hanging out of the hatches where they had been shot; a 17 pounder anti tank gun hidden in the hedges had done for it but there was still German infantry hidden in the hedges so we went along flaming the hedgerows. When our infantry had been over the ground one of their majors came over and asked if we wanted to inspect our handiwork. We declined".
Ernie Cox 141st Regiment Royal Armoured Corps.
“Hedgerows of Normandy posed a serious problem to the allies..”. Flamethrower: what problems ??
‘We declined’; chilling words
A ghastly nessasary weapon of hideous warfare,I can't imagine the terror seeing these in action
Absolutely awesome
What a great reaction to an engine starting James , love this series!!! All the best from Somerset 👍🏻👍🏻💯🍺🍺
Endearing to see James Holland look as genuinely happy as a ten year old boy. Awesome kit, I’ve seen the Bovington example, but not running.
The Germans didn't treat crocodile crews kindly if they captured any.
The Churchill has a lovely chunky design. It was thickly armoured, but could go almost anywhere. Superb tank in my opinion.
But unfortunately, not over the shingles at Dieppe .
Flamethrowers are a fearsome bit of kit full stop, but with the infantry held version at least you stand a chance as an infantryman to down the person carrying it if you throw enough lead in that direction. When the *tanks* start throwing fire at you, well that's a completely different kettle of napalm, especially when it's a tank with as much armour on it as a Churchill!
Love this series
That tank looks factory fresh. Amazing restoration job.
That engine sounds fantastic !!
If the Sherman is the greatest tank of the Second World War, then the Churchill, and especially the Crocodile, is my favorite. Thanks!
The Shermans isn't the greatest tank of WW2. Modern revisionist silliness. There was no greatest tank of WW2.
@@lyndoncmp5751 Sherman M-50 and the Sherman M-51, both often referred to abroad as the Super Sherman, were modified versions of the American M4 Sherman tank that served with the Israel Defense Forces from the mid-1950s to early 1980s.
@@nickdanger3802 Moot point as those are not WW2
@@Dreachon had the same armor
@@nickdanger3802 And you show that you have no a clue what you're talking about.
Boys and their toys. Brilliant!
Thanks to the chaps and their we have ways podcast that I was introduced to the book “flamethrower” about a crocodile crew in WW2. Must read.
Fantastic guys
That was indeed some peace of kit
This is excellent, can’t wait to watch all of these
Welcome!! Here’s the playlist of our Market Garden series so far… lots more episodes to come! th-cam.com/play/PL6c7sY9zou5UIHD8lpU8L3IMXnx7NtrL-.html&si=qf4wSa_MXz3OhFCd
A lovely restoration and what a beautiful sound to that engine! Cheers Guys ;)
What's not to like?
5 minutes of joy!
My late father-in-law commanded a Croc later than 'Market Garden in early 1945, working as a 'Devilish Duo'; a combination of the AVRE Petard mortar thrower with his 'Crocodile' flame thrower. He maintained that the knowledge of the mere presence of this inhumane weapon system caused the demoralised German troops, at that late stage in the conflict poorly trained, sub-standard and often very young, to surrender or run.
The Petard would hurl a shell to crack a bunker or reinforced strongpoint. The stunned unfortunates inside would be then immolated by a deluge of flame from the Croc; the flaming liquid seeping through the cracks or depriving those inside of oxygen.
A fellow commander was berated by an outraged Heer officer that the usage of the Croc was "unfair and un-British!"
Churchill Mk7 is just on 39 tons, so a bridging weight badge of 40.
People can say what they like about Shermans, but the Churchill has better armour, a lower profile, a more open interior (the transmission in the front of the sherman divides the driver and co driver positions, and the turret basket (which admittedly otften cut out) isolates the turret crew from the hull) lower ammunition storage (the thing that usually causes tanks to catastrophically explode is the primary ammo store getting hit, in the churchill it's on the hull floor a good entire metre below that of the Sherman's sponson ammo storage)and as many escape hatches as a man could want(1 in the floor(and a higher belly than the Sherman so you can more easily make use of it) 2 in the hull sides, and hull top, and then 2 in the turret, which are more or less acsessable to any member of the crew, you do not have a situation like in the Sherman, where there is a letter-box sized gap between driver and co-driver, or the early model shermans where they additonally had a single turret hatch). Churchill Mk7... well that's just the ultimate model.
I’m currently building a model Churchill on a tank transporter, this video is brilliant to use your uniforms for colour reference to the accompanying soldiers!
There were a few colour variations on tank overalls. Originally, they were black, but that was the same as German tankers so a potential hazard on the battlefield. British uniforms aren't my area so I'm not sure when the khaki here was most prevalent. My father used a set as overalls in the 70s that were brown.
A thing of beauty.
What a treat! I hope there is some more content on the Croc?
My grandfather and his unit drove tank transporters from n.africa, to Italy and then the northern European campaign with the 7th armoured. So thankyou for this randomly ! If you (or anyone else ) have any good references for uk tank transporters … it would be much appreciated 👍
Really love this tank really enjoyed the video mate can't wait for the next one
Thanks 👍
Really enjoying these videos! I hope they keep coming. Do you have plans for more major campaigns or any other wars?
Glad you’re enjoying the videos - we loved making them and yes we are hoping to do other battles. More subscribers and a bigger audience will give us scope to do more so do like, subscribe and spread the word! Hope you caught the first series from Normandy - here just in case: th-cam.com/play/PL6c7sY9zou5XN02JZJvlmBWFSjHpckgAa.html&si=b5ObqHVQx18wx2xv
An incredible restoration. Looks amazing. 👍
Wearing berets like frank Spencer and Benny hill! Keep the videos coming please, great stuff.
Everyone loves a happy Jim!
Brilliantly done as usual
The Crocodile was one of the most effective weapons of WW2. The most effective weapon is the one that doesn't kill anyone, it just makes them surrender. The gunner would fire unlit fuel at the enemy. Then wait. Once you're soaked in an incredibly flammable liquid, with a large, heavily armoured metal lighter approaching, you tend to not want to resist any more.
Strong benny hill vibe from al as he stood on the tank at the end.
Thank you Gentlemen.............What a beast 🤜🤜🤜🤜
"not just a matter of turning the key to start it" Paul then proceeds to press the starter button and starts it followed by big grin.
I wonder what that flamethrower sounds like when it’s fired? The Vietnam era M68 “Zippo” flamethrower tank was amazingly loud when the flame gun fired. The roar it made was almost scarier than the flames.
Many tanks 🔥
Great episode guys! Haha, you had to let Mike in so that we can all be in that tank with you too.
There is a famous George Carlin sketch about flamethrowers:
“The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, 'You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.”
To which we might add here "And they have a machine gun as well so I can't get too close!"
-in answer to which the British came up with the Crocodile.
My favorite tank!!!
Great vid as always lads. I'm interested to know, were
flamethrowers banned under the Geneva convention or was that after the war?
Are those overalls? Or a shirt and trousers. I need a set of those. Loving the videos lads keep up the great work
04:40 Al is in his happy place...
Nice one from a. couple of Tankers 😉
I would like to see James and Al do driving lesson on the Sherman tank.
Most fearsome tank of World wore 2. A touch of Benny Hill there a the beginning from AL.
In such good condition, amazing to see.
0:03 Al really needs to be doing a Benny Hill salute.
I mean if I had to be in ANY WW2 flame tank it would be a Croc. Firstly, you got that 152mm of frontal armour, so it kicks the Sherman croc, on that easily. Secondly, the primary flame storage, unlike that of most other flame tanks is external, so it kicks the KV1 flame tanks(which are the 2nd contender...) and on a trailer which can be ditched at the press of a button(by the driver I do believe). And thirdly, unlike most other flame tanks, you still got your gun for self defence! (which kicks most other flame tanks!)
Interesting your comparison with Tiger 1 terrifying allied tank crews and the Crocodile based on an infantry tank terrifying German infantry, is this proof of concept?
Canadian MK19 MkII with the Cyrillic markings
They should have named it the Dragon.
Too obvious I suspect.
Considering how effective Molotov cocktail was against tanks in WW2, I've always wondered if a Churchill Crocodile could take out a Panther/Tiger with its flamethrower - even if it didn't leak in through hatches or observation slits, it could blind the crew until the flames went out. Obviously it would need to get within range or attack from an ambush position. Thoughts anyone?
It's a cruel world.
Do like the Churchill, Crocodile or the other interpretations of it, but was the vision for the driver impaired, as he's sat back a bit, altho looking out front of course, from his position, surely the tracks on both sides were blocking peripheral outlook and were maybe unable to see the enemy, either infantry, tracked vehicles or tanks, at times? Any chance we could see some footage, if theres any out there, of the drivers eye view?
Love it, one of my favourite, that fearsome, best option surrender
That thing is fit for purpose. And to think that effectively it’s a close range support vehicle.
The Germans did have fixed flame fougasse devices, wired up to remote detonate, shooting a jet out, but from what I recall of the reports in the archive, nothing really mobile, a number of man-portable designs. Those were of course of much more limited range, as well as rather vulnerable to rifle fire.
They had flamethrower tanks, (flammenpanzer) and flamethrower halftracks too, in fact the UK, US, Russia and Germany all fielded them but the Crocodile was the better design by a country mile.
We also had a Bren gun carrier thrower called 'Wasp'.
The Croc was a result of planning to breach the Atlantic wall but really came into its own later on during the fight through Holland then the Siegfried Line and into Germany.
Many people consider them to be contrary to convention for their cruelty but an equal amount of people consider them to be the opposite in that once the enemy learnt to recognise them for what they actually were they were they generally didn't stick around in their concrete pillbox long enough to find out if the rumours were true thus preserving their lives.
If able the crews would sometimes shower the enemy position with unignited naptha gel and give them a chance to surrender before igniting it with the predictable horrible consequences.
War is hell.
They had various Flammpanzer in use
'...into the nozzle...' and the close up shows a normal Besa bow machine gun.
Come on lads - ! 😅
need !
What are those cap badges?
I’ll just about give Al a pass… but can James seek guidance on beret shaping please if he’s going to wear one…
Second World war Berets were worn all over the place really, how they have them is more historically accurate.
I presume that tank was supplied to Russia given the writing on the radio at @2:12 has Cyrillic text?
Thatc engine noise!!!
Brilliant 😂
Frank Spencer eat your heart out😅
anyone else gonna say?
Where's the main gun on this churchill?
Wasn't the flamethrower bow mounted?
If either of you pair ever need a short fat bloke who’s as into this stuff as you are to make you look even more dashing give me a shout !
Great 😂
57,307 No 19 British Radio Sets shipped to British Empire under Lend Lease
Boys with toys :)
They are playing at being soldiers now
You lucky, lucky bar stewards........
Where's its gun gone?
I think they got rid of the main gun to fit the flamethrower
@DanielsPolitics1 no they didn't, the flamethrower was an addition fitted and fired from the front drivers area, look at all the accompanying black and white film they show you, the main gun is clearly still fitted to the tank turrets of the vehicles in this black and white footage
@@DanielsPolitics1 The flame projector replaced the front mounted Besa machine gun. The design of the conversion kit allowed the tank to retain it’s main turret mounted 75mm gun.
@ My mistake
@@DanielsPolitics1 no worries, I had to Goggle for my reply, as I wasn't sure either.
Schoolboys