Calvinism Vs. Arminianism Debate (Rev. Angus Stewart and Rev. Timothy Ramsay)
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- Rev. Angus Stewart (Calvinist) debates with Rev. Timothy Ramsay (Arminian) on the "Calvinism Vs. Arminianism Debate" shown live on Thursday, 2 October, 2008 (World In Focus on Revelation TV).
"God’s Sovereignty in Salvation" by Rev. Steven Houck explains this truth biblically and clearly (www.cprc.co.uk/pamphlets2/sovereigntyinsalvation)
For more, see cprc.co.uk/calv...
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I watched this live over 10 years ago on Revelation TV and came to the conclusion that Calvinism is more Biblical than Arminianism. Reverend Angus was fantastic in this debate.
So much for being "neutral" Mr. Moderator. They practically tag teamed Pastor Angus. The reformed pastor argued his point with the use of scripture, the other two argued with a lot of "What about's" and "For instance's". Reformed pastor clearly won.
I agree with you. I cant believe he did not explain the "spirits in prison" which are the Gentiles that sat in darkness. They had not the light and the Gospel wasnt given to them but only Israel in the old testament. But now the gospel will go outside the camp of Israel to every nation tongue and tribe and that's what it means the All. The cross of Christ is Exclusive!! Not inclusive.
The show host is supposed to be a moderator and be neutral. This guy is horrible. He is debating the Calvinist more than the Armenian guy is.
Tim Wiggins yep I saw this years ago the moderator was horrible
2nd Timothy 2:15 Paul is the Apostle to the body of Christ. Truthtimeradio.com , Paul said all the churches of Asia turned against him, maybe if they had stayed with him Paul we would not have this problem today?
Amen Angus. Thankyou for staying with scripture and weathering the ignorance.
O how boastful are those who think they are saved according to the 'integrity of their hearts
Agree or Disagree with his theology, Angus knows his bible. I respect that.
I actually watched this many years ago whilst an arminian and could not understand what Rev Stewart was going on about. Then, in 2020, during lockdown, I started listening to calvinist preachers, read John Owen, and other reformer works, including The Potters Freedom by Dr James White. I am now convinced, after 30 years of thinking it was our fallen free will that chooses Jesus Christ, that, actually, it is God who regenerates our hearts and we have to be born from above into Jesus Christ and that is through His drawing us to Him and hearing His Word.
I now listen to this debate and sit in total agreement with Rev Stewart, and what is actually written in the scriptures, not the liberalism of arminianism.
The moderator was clearly not moderating as his Liberal arminianism was clearly on display in a bias manner, BUT, he did ask some good questions, and those questions enabled Rev Stewart to proclaim the truth of scripture.
Very poor moderating, and to let fly, and not permit the debaters to address it, the claim of the caller who was pushing universalism was astounding.
Too many believers in the UK are very liberal when it comes to the sovereignty of God, and the free will of man. What needs to be understood, which arminians fail, it seems, to grasp, is that our free will is a fallen free will, unable, without regeneration from above, to accept Jesus Christ and His salvivic works.
It's called The Strong delusion my friend. II Thess 2:10-14 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Be the voice amen
Calvinism = God centered Salvation - God is sovereign - Jesus merits salvation - man cannot boast - God is glorified - a divine cordial (monergism)
Arminianism = man centered Salvation - man is sovereign (or partially so) - man merits salvation (or partially so) - man can boast - man is glorified - a Jesuitical drug (synergism)
@@oldenoughtoknowbetter6473 Yes, Jesus said "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
John 6:44 " No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Jesus said!
See John 10:11-15 and 10:25-29 too! Jesus said!
John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." Jesus said!
@@oldenoughtoknowbetter6473 All men come into this world a DEAD sinner! What are you talking about? What does fruit got to do with salvation? A sinner is saved by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9
@@oldenoughtoknowbetter6473 I John 1:8 " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
@@oldenoughtoknowbetter6473 You have not stopped sinning you clown!
WOW! The anchor is so incredibly Biased. Props To Rev.Angus for putting up with it.
Arminians trip themselves up quite often, their faulty theology finds holes in the Gospel..They end up contradicting themselves quite often.
Ironic given thst calvinism is just as damnable and false
WHO CHOOSES THE TRUE GOSPEL--DOES MAN--ON HIS OWN--CHOOSE GOD...OR DOES GOD CHOOSE MAN? GOOD QUESTION......DON'T LET YOUR STRONG AND WRONG PRESUPPOSTIIONS DETERMINE WHAT IS TRUTH AND WHAT IS NOT....... (( If you don't agree with the first verse, go to the next. If not with that one either, go to the next. Then go on and on .... )))
God's Sovereign Grace Scriptural FACTS Every Christian Should Know: ●Appointed by GOD for Eternal Life - Acts 13:48 (cf. John 17:2-3) ●Appointed by GOD to Obtain Salvation - 1 Thessalonians 5:9 ●Born of GOD - John 1:13 (cf. 1 John 2:29, 3:9, 4:7, 5:1-5, 5:18) ●Called by GOD - 2 Timothy 1:9 (cf. Romans 8:29-30) ●Chosen by GOD Before Time - Ephesians 1:4ff ●Chosen by GOD for Salvation - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ●Energized by GOD - Philippians 2:13 ●Foreknown by GOD - Romans 8:29-30 (cf. 1 Peter 1:2) ●Given by GOD - Hebrews 2:13 (cf. John 6:37, 6:65, 17:2-6) ●Glorified by GOD - Romans 8:29-30 ●Justified by GOD - Romans 3:30, 4:5, 8:30-33 ●Loved by GOD - Romans 5:8, 8:39 ●Made Alive by GOD - Ephesians 2:1-5 (cf. Colossians 2:13) ●Predestined by GOD - Romans 8:29-30 (cf. Ephesians 1:5-11) ●Prepared by GOD - Romans 9:23 (cf. Ephesians 2:10) ●Preserved by GOD - 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (cf. Psalm 37:28) ●Purchased by GOD - Acts 20:28 ●Sanctified by GOD - 1 Thessalonians 5:23 ●Saved by GOD - 2 Timothy 1:9 ●Sealed by GOD - 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 ●Matthew 11:27 - No one knows the Father except the Son and the ones to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. ●Matthew 13:11 - To some it has been given to know God, but to others it has not. ●Matthew 15:13 - God is the one who does the planting. ●Matthew 20:23 - God has ordained who will sit at His right and His left. ●Mark 13:20 - God chose the elect. ●Luke 10:21,22 - God chooses to whom He will reveal the plan of salvation based on what seems good in His sight. ●Luke 12:32 - It is God’s pleasure to give some the kingdom. ●Luke 13:24 - Some seek but may not enter. ●John 5:21 - The Son gives life to whom He will. ●John 6:44 - No one can come to the Son except those who are first drawn by the Father. ●John 6:65 - No one can come to the Son unless it has been granted by the Father. ●John 8:43-47 - The children of the devil cannot understand Christ’s teaching. ●John 10:26-30 - Christ’s sheep know His voice and thus follow Him. Those who are not His sheep cannot follow Him. ●John 12:37-40 - The people were kept from believing in order to fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy. ●John 13:18 - I know whom I have chosen. Christ did not choose Judas. ●John 15:16 - You did not choose Me, but I chose you. ●John 17:6 - Some were given to Christ by the Father for eternal life. ●Acts 13:48 - As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. ●Romans 8:28-30 - Those who were predestined were called, justified and glorified. ●Romans 9:11-13 - God chose Jacob before his birth, not based on his works. ●Galatians 1:15 - Paul was set apart by God from his mother’s womb. ●1 Corinthians 1:26-29 - Those who believe are first called. ●Ephesians 1:3-5 - He chose us before the foundation of the world, having predestined us to adoption according to the good pleasure of His will. ●Ephesians 1:11 - We have been predestined according to the purpose of His will to receive an inheritance. ●Ephesians 2:4-7 - God made us alive while we were still dead. ●Colossians 1:26, 27 - God willed to make Christ known to the saints. ●Colossians 3:12 - As the elect of God. ●1 Thessalonians 1:4 - Knowing your election by God. ●2 Thessalonians 13,14 - From the beginning God chose some for salvation. ●2 Timothy 1:9 - God has saved us and called us according to His own purpose. ●Hebrews 9:15 - Those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. ●1 Peter 1:1,2 - Elected according to God’s foreknowledge. ●1 Peter 2:7,8 - Some have been predestined to hell. ●Jude 4 - Some were predestined for condemnation.
There comes a point Arminianism will cross over into the camp of Calvinism but it dose not negate their argument. Its value comes down to knowing that all of humanity belongs to God and God's is willing for all to be saved, where in Calvinism God choses to cast others in to Hell. So this would mean no hope for the unelected. SUCKS BEING THEM and Great being US! Dose that seem right to you? Arminanism Vs Calvinism will never be solved. The issue is this, what have we done with Christ. We are walking away from the cross if not running in order to avoid that uncomfortable silence when sharing Jesus.
Nicholas Lombardi- What are you complaining about? Be THANKFUL that God chose you! The unbeliever/reprobate could care less if they were chosen or elect.
what a refreshing "debate". all three guys exhibit a great patience and are very gracious toward each other. this style of debate, more of a conversation, is far more entertaining and quickly gets to the point.
What a, tremendously, biased host... That was a shame. I would just like to say of Brother Stuart that it was clear from his totally honourable conduct in the face of unfairness that he has indeed the peace and love of Christ.
What an admirable job you did. Thankyou brother.
His attention to the Word and not to feelings (born out of the flesh, claimed as works of the Holy Spirit, apart from the word of God) is exactly the reason we should hear him. Apart from the word of God we know not what spirit we are feeling!
To say that we should rely on the spirit rather than the word... It is the blind leading the blind further and further down the road of paganism, with itching ears seeking earnestly, not God, but that which magnifies themselves.
To God be the glory, forever and ever,
Amen.
True, The Spirit speaks through God's word IE the Bible .All scripture is God -Breathed . Anyone seeking to downplay The Word of God when examining truth is definitely wrong for doing so .
Angus is like a sword piercing the heart of unbelief ! They just cannot keep up ! Like talking to the unconverted, they just can not see....! How can any sincere person not interpret Romans 3 in the light of the rest of scripture. if any man has seen his own sin, in the light of Christs presence, he knows exactly what Paul is saying there.....! To say the context negates the fact that all men are dead sinners is unbelievably ridiculous...What context..."there are none that do good", are we all speaking english here..I get the feeling that arminianists hate Gods Sovereignty because they really, in truth, want to be autonomous and free from GODS WILL ! They hate Gods sovereignty as much as we hate arminianism...what does that say ! The host says "In my spirit I just carnt go with the flow of it" yet we know that Gods Spirit testifies the truth with our spirit, so what spirit does he feel?
Agnus blew them away with actual scripture! These other two continued in their man centered belief
1 John 4:19 we love him because he first loved us. Kjv do you notice everyone who God loves is loving God back ? Because he gives them a new heart to love him back, unsaved man hates God, calvinsm is true.
when the caller calls in to support the Calvinist the host gasps at her.
He does a few weird things..!
You need to study the man doctrine so that you will know that man had a free will to choice....body and soul deprave only the spirit of man has a partial depravity and can hear the Gospel..to believe ,faith ,repent and accept salvation thru Christ then the Holy Spirit regenerate new believer..
If God asks you this question in heaven, what would you answer?
"Why did you believe and others did not?"
A. Because I am better in CHOOSING
B. Because I have a good free will
C. Because I am smarter and good than them
Easy.
Because "I was elect before the foundation of the World", I was elect for salvation before I did anything good or bad. You gifted ME faith, made me a better person, and gifted NO faith to the other
Now what would I say If G-d asked: Why did You NOT believe and the other did?
"G-d you did not give me the gift of faith, You did not elect me to be saved like you did with the other. You decided from before the foundation of the world, before I did anything good or bad, that I was to be left in my sinful nature, as a slave to sin, you did not atone for me. And thus, I could never, ever believe or repent."
So sad such bad theology exist.
the calvanist Rev. nailed it!
I love brother Angus. Not arrogant or cocky! From a reformed Baptist in California.
As soon as you questions God, you lose. "Why would God..." When you project what you think, or the way you think it needs to be according to your own thinking outside of scripture, you lose. Read the bible and lean not on your own understanding.
With respect this moderator needs to be fired. Or at least never allowed to moderate a debate. Ever. He’s so biased and one sided. You can tell every time he says “god bless” to the Armenian guy, but when the Calvinist says something, he’s flooded with hostility.
Let's make this simple
Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
We are clearly predestined and there is not one scripture in the bible that says we choose God on our own will.
Yes, we are predestined to be chosen in Him or through Him, that is what grace is, something that the fallen angels were not offered.
It is through Jesus that God loves us and it through Jesus that we live Him.
Jesus is the means by which God loves and saves the world.
Are not these labels merely ways of dividing us and controlling our thoughts?
I am a reformed believer, yet i belief in the power of the holy spirit and the speaking in tongues
All Christians believe in the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues. The question is not whether you believe in those truths, it is rather WHAT you believe about them. That is were the issue lies.
The anchor is totally biased. Not open to the truth
When confronted with John 17:9, the guy in the brown coat goes off on this bizarre Pentecostal trail that gives new meaning to non-sequitur. The clear teaching of the sovereignty of God in salvation, including His choice of some vessels prepared for wrath and some prepared for mercy, is irrefutable.
Wow so many years ago. I had not heard of Calvinism or Arminianism 5 days before this show even though my system of theology were consistent to Arminianism. The person who was going to debate pulled out. Rev Angus was very knowledgeable and from a debate standpoint definitely “won”if you want to call it that.
Yet today, more than ever I believe that’s Calvinism is an over reach and aberration of Jesus, the apostles and the early church orthodox position on salvation, but I digress. This debate will rage on until The Lord returns.
It was a two on one and Pastor Angus won the debate with scripture
@Steven Irizarry I disagree
@Steven Irizarry I'm not a Calvinist I just believe in Jesus and the Bible I didn't save myself God saved me according to Ephesians chapter 2
@Steven Irizarry negative my friend I believe in the scriptures and Christ Jesus saved by grace through faith alone
@@neffsurpris9245
Yea Jesus saves. He saves those that believe.
This is not a debate. Its 2 against one. interesting to see the Arminian taking texts out of context.
"When I say break, you break" - that's funny
The Arminians refuse to address the clear passages like ""No on can come unless the father drawk"
or
"And those who were appointed to eternal life believed".
Calvinism is the truth! To God be the glory!
+Chad Daniels You might like to read John Owens "The Death of Death in the death of Jesus Christ" - he addresses all the misperceptions and misunderstandings about the 'so called ' 5 Points and writes on how they came about and why they are what they are. "Apart from me you can do nothing" - this issues has been going on for over 400 years . This video will likely be very confusing to anyone who wants to KNow Christ and not even going to listen. I already know what it is like to be on the other side. This guy can't defend Calvinism well from what I'm hearing already..hair yank
Stephen Sponsler I am familiar with Owen. I am familiar with the arguments against the doctrines of Grace.
God Bless.
Chad both are Protestant bullshit! No I'm not Catholic.
Keep your eternal burning hell and literal faith in Jesus' EXISTENCE for salvation teachings.
Huh? Your filthy language is not appreciated.
Chad Daniel's my apologies; but is that all you got?
ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
What annoys me is that people elevate experience above the word of God. Either above or on par and this is not good theological argumentation. In my view, people who do that immediately lose credibility,
But those who experience salvation know by the witness of the Spirit to the Word that God is Soveriegn and that we are dead in sin!
Yes, there is an experience in the new birth but it is by no means extrabiblical.
How could it be...God who wrote the word is the one who saves!
All of the "ism's" just cause a pride in identifying with some man, whether it's Calvinism, Arminianism, Morminism or whatever. People might as well be saying "I am of John Calvin", or "I am of Jacobus Arminius". The church today is such a mess.
Refomed people don't follow Calvin they follow the bible.
How many times will that "moderator" tell the Arminian pastor "God bless you sir"? Or laugh at points he clearly didn't understand? After the Reformed pastor spoke to answer a point, he even pointed to the Arminian pastor and said "Man of God". You would think that if you are going to moderate a debate, you would at least do a little reading on the topic. I don't think the man was capable of understanding.
Amen ! Shocking...
If you look at how much scripture the Calvinist used vs the Arminean, it seems to be that the Calvanist knew his stuff a little more. either way. I liked that the Armenian talked of how we are all of Christ. So we may disagree on some issues, but we all agree on Christ.
+Tom Cunnington Not sure one tossing out more "proof texts" than the other proves anything. it was refreshing to hear a respectful conversation of a topic that drives some on both sides from "grace" as something to be lived out.
I guess it really just depends on how import you think scripture is
If God, the Father draws a man to Christ,that man is saved.john6:44
That was sadly more biased than I hoped for. But after struggling with this for quite sometime, I find it rather pointless. The main thing we should do is focus on loving Jesus whole heartedly. Get the gospel out there. Our brothers and sisters need to hear it.
John Calvin on the bondage of fallen man's will under the dominion of sin, so that man is unable to believe in Christ and be saved without the irresistible grace of God:
"The Papists … hold that man, through his own free will, returns to God; and on this point is our greatest contest with them at this day."
"Concerning that this clown babbleth of free will, it is sufficiently rejected throughout the whole scripture."
"Faith is a special gift of God, which proceedeth not from our free will."
"Let that ethical philosophy therefore of free-will be far from a Christian mind."
"No free will of man can resist Him that willeth to save."
"This movement of the will is not of that description which was for many ages taught and believed-viz. a movement which thereafter leaves us the choice to obey or resist it, but one which affects us efficaciously. We must, therefore, repudiate the oft-repeated sentiment of Chrysostom, “Whom he draws, he draws willingly;” insinuating that the Lord only stretches out his hand, and waits to see whether we will be pleased to take his aid. We grant that, as man was originally constituted, he could incline to either side, but since he has taught us by his example how miserable a thing free will is if God works not in us to will and to do, of what use to us were grace imparted in such scanty measure? Nay, by our own ingratitude, we obscure and impair divine grace. The Apostle’s doctrine is not, that the grace of a good will is offered to us if we will accept of it, but that God himself is pleased so to work in us as to guide, turn, and govern our heart by his Spirit, and reign in it as his own possession" (Institutes of the Christian Religion, 2.3,10).
www.cprf.co.uk/quotes/freewill.htm
i find it funny that when the word of faith preacher couldn't answer Rev. Stewart he immediately went to "do you believe in healing"....can anyone say STRAWMAN and DISTRACTION?
Well i believe i am a calvinist who believes in the speaking of tongues and the manifestions of spiritual gifts at this age of the church. otherwise nice debate
Me too...what matters is our conscience before God nothing else...Be true to what is revealed to you. I am a calvinist and believe one that the book of Enoch is inspired scripture as did Tertullian. Tertullian also believed in the gifts of the Spirit! I also believe that the Word of God does not teach 'eternal torment'. i believe there is a hell but that the wicked will be destroyed in it. Jesus said "do not fear him who is able to destroy the body, fear him how is able to 'DESTROY' BODY AND SOUL in hell" ! Almost all scriptures that speak about hell talk about destruction or perishing. I believe that this position is the only consistent position for a calvinist. To imagine that God created all men, that they exist because of His will and then for God to throw such into unending torment, is ridiculous. It has always been a problem fr calvinists to answer the question 'what about babies that die'. All are born in sin, this the scripture declares clearly. So if you believe in unending torment then one must believe that babies will end up in unending torment. That is certainly not who God is at all. We see Jesus a beautiful and righteous Judge. Unending torment is a terrible deception...God is not a torturer. Imagine how a person can believe that all things are ordained by God so they believe God has ordained all sinners, who had no choice about coming into the world will suffer unending torment...! Think about that! God bless you and cause His light to shine upon you until that final day!
What stood out early on in this program is the asking of the questions concerning speaking in tongues, demonic deliverance and the laying on of hands. This is a SIDE ISSUE from Christology. The debate was to address Christology not other issues. The stated Calvinist position in the video MAY be the position of his congregation but to paint ALL Reform theologians in that category is not proper or fair. In the same way, there are strong reform teachers who fill all 3 positions in eschatology (Pre-Mil, Post-Mil and A-Mil).
Through many years of diligent study I cant see scripture teaching anything than Reform theology. From the Covenants made through the Bible it is clear that God is sovereign. I personally prefer it to be called Reform Theology but that is a personal thing.
As a Calvinist I get frustrated sometimes when I bring clear passages to prove the sovereignty of God and that He elects and the response I have gotten before was your looking at it too extremely or literally!
The Calvinist quoted John 3, but does not quote it in context. He states, "Man loves darkness rather than light, therefore he won't come into the light." John (not Jesus as the Calvinist suggests) states the reason men won't come into the light is because their deeds are evil, they hate the light, and fear being exposed in the light." While these deeds obviously come out of a fallen nature, nowhere does John give any indication that this is so because they cannot come, or that God wills this to be. We must be clear that this discourse in John begins in verse 16 with "For God so loves the world" and goes on to state that WHOEVER believes shall not perish but will have eternal life. John again states in verse 18 that "WHOEVER believes is not condemned". Now I'm not going to attempt to search out the original Greek word that has been translated into the English "Whoever" but I'm pretty sure that the translators did not find a Greek word that indicated a limited number of people, thus "whoever" was chosen. Let's not quotes scripture out of context my Calvinist brothers.
Ron S
Whoever pulls the sword out of the stone will be rewarded. Doesn't mean everyone can do it.
Romans 8:8 So then those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Simply put... Christ died for all men, only THOSE WHO BELIEVE in Him are saved. It doesn't take from the fact he died for us all. "If by one man's sin (Adam) sin came unto men, how much more by one man's (Christ) death brings life unto men.
But, did Christ not say he died for his sheep? Are all those in Hell his sheep? Certainly not, however, the Church universal, makes up his flock.
Job 42 - 7,8
7And so it was, after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.
8 Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.”
we all will give acount about our words, how we speak about God.
when we speak about God we should pray before we talk, and with Godly fear to speak, not with pride.
Job and his friends were debating, even job was wrong with his speaking, but his attitude was humble, and his friends were proud and thought they know for sure. God rebuked them because of that.
God bless you all.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Sin is both an indwelling power and a choice.
That is Paul after the law slew him and before he was made free from the law of sin and death in Christ Jesus. He’s describing the law of sin and death in that text you cited.
God bless.
@@evanu6579 Romans 7:14-25 deals with the battle within the apostle Paul and all believers against indwelling sin. All God's people are carnal and desire sin with "no good thing" in them a/c to the "flesh" (v. 18); and all God's people desire to do good and "delight in the law of God after the inward man" (v. 22). No unbeliever delights in the law of God after the inward man. Galatians 5:17 also describes the inner struggle of God's children: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
Here are 3 doctrine classes on Sanctification in Romans 7:14-25:
cprc.co.uk/sermons/sanctification-and-romans-714-25/ and cprc.co.uk/sermons/sanctification-in-romans-714-25-2/ and cprc.co.uk/sermons/sanctification-in-romans-714-25-3/
@@CPRCNI
Why would Paul delight in the law of God and in his mind serve the law of God when he just finished saying that we are no longer under the law and we don’t serve in the letter of the law because we’re dead to the law?
Wouldn’t it be counterproductive for Paul to tell the church that they are free from sin that they no longer have to serve sin and that they have now become servants of righteousness, only to turn around and say that he himself can’t help but to serve sin and can’t find the power to serve righteousness?
Why would Paul detail the law of sin and death and how he’s held captive by it.....
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 ¶ I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
But then say he is now free from that law of sin and death in Christ Jesus?......
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Why would Paul speak of the condemnation in his life with his body of death.....
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
When he says he’s no longer condemned and his body of death was crucified with Christ.....
Rom 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
So this is where Paul speaks of keeping the law and not being able to.....
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Here is where Paul speaks of being set free from the law.....
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
So where does Paul fit in, in his speech of inability to serve righteousness and inability to avoid sin from Rom 7, within this section from Rom 6......
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 ¶ For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
It would seem to me that Paul would be contradicting himself on several different issues if he’s speaking as a born again believer.
@@evanu6579 Paul's letters speak use law or nomos in various senses and ways, depending on the context. It is not difficult to prove this to those willing to understand. But it would take an awful lot of typing. For instance, believers are not "under" the law as the dominant power in our lives for, though before our conversion we were its slaves, now we are under the gracious rule of Christ our King.
Likewise, we are "dead" to the law in various senses: it will not condemn us, since Christ has borne our condemnation on the cress; we do not look to it for our justification, as if by keeping it we could merit with God; etc.
But our (sizable and serious) differences do not rest upon this issue and, though, I've started typing an explanation (above), I'm going to stop here because this is not the heart of the conflict between the truth of God's grace and (your particular brand of) Arminianism, and I have a lot of (good) work to get through.
dont get too caught up with this... The essential beliefs of a Christian is that we must acknowledge the deity of Christ, and that God is the only God... we must also acknowledge that we are in desperate need of Gods forgiveness and it is only by grace through faith that we are saved. God makes the very clear... So if you believe that Jesus is God, and that he is your savior, you are fine.
Theology leads to doxology, my friend.
Ryan Gallmeier hey Ryan, im not trying to undermine theology. It is very important... Im currently going for a degree in theology lol. So im not trying to undermine it... but I do know that as christians, we sometimes get so hung up on things that are not essential to salvation. Basically is what im trying to sayy. Is that we shouldnt question the salvation of your christian brother or sister if they believe in a literal 6 day creation or not. Because that isnt essential to a persons salvation.
When jesus was being executed. The thief on the cross that was next to him wasnt at all strong in his theology, all he simply did was sincerely put his trust in Christ. And jesus replies "today you will be with my in paradise". Which is beautiful and incredible response from our lord.
So again my brother, im not trying to undermine theology. Im just trying to emphasize the essential belief for salvation :)
I hear you, brother.
And God speed in your studies.
In Jesus' precious name.
Ryan.
The irony is they are both wrong . They are both systems which stem from the same root of Augustine s philosophy.
How in all the history of crazy claims does the Arminian heresy arise from the developed biblical soteriology of Augustine?
The fact that Jacob Arminius taught under Theodore Beza ( Calvernist) never left the Augustine hive and that Arminiasm was born out of a ' in house 'squabble between the 5 articles of Arminius ( remonstrance ) and the counter 5 points of Calvernism. It's the same structure. The same faulty understanding of election and Total Depravity.The Gosepl was spread just fine beyond the Dutch reformers
@@MrBazinthenow 1) Arminius rejected the truth of God's grace as taught from Scripture by Beza in Geneva to Arminius and in Augustine's writings, especially against the Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians. 2) Arminius was a member and a minister of the Dutch Reformed Churches but he did not believe the confessions of these churches an sought to undermine it. He was in the church only as a wolf in sheep's clothing, a false prophet and a deceiver. Besides what has 2) to do with your bizarre claim that Arminianism stems from Augustine's teaching of God's sovereign and irresistible grace in Jesus Christ?
@@CPRCNI well Jacob retained only a modification of an already faulty system. No lost person is chosen to be saved before creation with or without ' foreknowledge ' . This is coming from Augustines gnosctism.
@@MrBazinthenow Arminius utterly rejected God's sovereign grace and turned the key points on the head, holding the opposite. Augustine taught "faith" in Scripture, God's Word, and refuted Gnostic heresies.
No one cares about the emails. Let the debate go on
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatest of His Power, towards US who believe, according to the working of His Mighty Power.
Debate too long. Just quick thoughts. Listened up to 19:07.
Calvinism: God is "absolutely sovereign"; with respect to salvation: God chooses an elect people in Christ; "brought mid-willing (?) into the kingdom"
Arminianism: Teachings of Calvinism "ruled out" human free will. (Note: that salvation is "not eternal" was not taught by Arminius; he did not have a firm belief regarding whether or to salvation could be lost and called for more study on the subject.)
Angus: Regarding question on choosing (7:15) by moderator, Angus does not answer the specific question, "If God gives human beings the choice, so where does the sovereignty of God come into the equation to switch things around. Angus merely affirms that God gives commands and men "must do" and goes on to affirm the Calvinist teaching of inability.
Ramsey: Starts argument from Creation on the ability of First Parents to choose. Free will does not "negate" divine sovereignty. To talk of "total sovereignty of God" may get into the danger of attributing controls and commands the sin of men. Arminian theology agree "all have sinned" and all are inherently sinful; not that we cannot choose good but that we cannot do what pleases God. God must draw men, else men would not be drawn to God. Man must choose to the drawing.
Angus: The drawing is all of God, 100%; word "drawn" is used of "to drag", therefore, it is an "irresistible, unstoppable, forceful" drawing. While God draws, He changes the heart to be willing to believe while the drawing. Men were angered by this teaching because they couldn't come to Christ unless God drew them.
Me: Wouldn't their anger be justified precisely because what Jesus said, as interpreted by Calvinism, is true?
Moderator: Based on the integrity of the heart, God draws men (same idea reflected in his personal testimony that the shared previously).
Me: That is affirming God saving men in whom he sees something good, which contradicts Calvinism.
Ramsey: "I desired...ye would not." An Biblical example of free will.
For by grace through faith we are saved; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9)
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails. (Proverbs 19:21
he LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand. (Isaiah 14:24)
...God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:8-9)
Eph.1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Prov.16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
John10 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is ...
John6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out
John17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him
***** Christ IS the REDEEMER! Of his Church for sure,but we cannot see Him as not being the Redeemer.
***** Absolutely !! And who is the REDEEMER ? The Father. (only one Redeemer)
***** She will be eternally happy with the Lord.
+Michel Haineault Nice list of passages.....that both Calvinists and Arminians affirm, by the way......
Scripture alone is God's Word. I am a Calvinist because Scripture teaches the systematic propositions we know as Calvinism. God is absolutely sovereign. Isaiah 46:9-10
32:06 - All who call on the name of the lord shall be saved Joel 2:32. How do you call on the name of the lord? Acts 22:16. You will be in heaven because you called on the name of the Lord. You call on the name of the lord by through free will. Otherwise, why would the elect need to call?
John 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
"Romans 9:15-16 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
I believe that God does give man significant choice to make a difference in his salvation, because love requires volition and he didn't make us to be robots.. however having said that, whether man is capable of choosing God with his own freewill in his depraved nature, apart from God's supernatural intervention
I think that's the issue.
You say "love requires volition" and you are right to say that. However, No one loves God until He saves them. God FIRST loved us (by dying for us & chosing those who'd believe). Those whom God saves, do love Him by their own volition AFTER they are miraculously regenerated. Absolutely no one loves God who has not been first regenerated by God. Calvin's Tulip is biblical. God bless you.
At the 45.50 mark When the Arminian mentioned in the Bible the Story about Abimelech not touching Sarah because God threatened Him in a Dream on what would happen if He did touch here, did you noticed how the Arminian tried to show how Abimelech used His So called Free Will to make the Decision on not to SIN, but if He had Read the whole Story Genesis 20:6 He would have seen God saying to Abimelech that the only reason He did not SIN was because it was I (GOD) who kept you from Sinning against Me. Therefore I did not let you touch Her. It is all of GOD, not Part of man.
Unregenerate man is a Slave to Sin...which means He is a Robot to SIN because He Loves His SIN. In order for Man to change...God must change Him...If Man has such a Free Will to change Himself why do Arminians Pray for God to Change them or thier Love ones to Believe in God. If you get a chance...Listen to what Spurgeon has to say about a True Arminian Prayer.
King Yeshua: It would be interesting to read some of your reasoning on what you believe instead of just short little comments with nothing to back up why you are saying anything.
Where in scripture does it say an unsaved/unregenerated person has free will? The "Free Will" position is Man-centered and makes man the final factor in salvation
John 1:13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
*****
lol whatever YOU say
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
John 6:39 " And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
goodbye now
*****
John 10:11 " I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
John 14-15 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."
John 10:25-29 "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
And there is plenty more- Goodbye now!
This is a very biased debate. Not a fair fight for Rev. Stewart
Angus blew them both away and used Scripture every time.....The natural man hates the idea of God having an ELECT (which is spoken of constantly in the New Testament).Man just wants to tell God how to act.
Here is a quote from Calvin; “Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God.” And another; “God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.” Institutions of the Christian Religion Book III, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7.
This is what the Quran teaches; “whom [he] pleases he causes to err, and whom he pleases he puts on the right way.” Quran 6:39.
If you believe in Calvinism you call God a liar. Gen 6:5-6 “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." If it was God's will for man to fall, why would He say that it grieved Him that He made man and then in the next verse say that He was going to destroy man because of man's wickedness?
Here is a quote from Brown's Bible dictionary about the Nicolaitans; “The Nicolaitans imputed their wickedness to God as the cause.” Sadly, this is Calvinism.
Calvin was also a murderer. Calvin caused the death of Michael Servetus just because they disagreed.
Follow God and His Word not man and his interpretation and always be willing to let God be true and every man a liar. May the Lord Jesus Christ, who came in the flesh, give those who chose to seek Him, true understanding.
Hahaha this is what happend when you don't have an argument anymore 🙂
Does man have free will? Yes. Does man NOT have free will? Yes. Why do we say it's either one or the other? Both Calvinism AND Arminianism are biblical. An often overlooked verse: "In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps." Proverbs 16:9 Are we free to make our own choices? Yes, but they always are in accordance with God's divine plan.
The Gosple of the Kingdom Jesus preached teaches there is 3 destinations not 2 "Heaven or Hell."
Inner court- "Holy City" Where God dwells.
Outer Court- "New Earth" Nations of the Saved
Lake of Fire- "Second Death" Hell and death were tossed into the Lake of Fire.
How is it determined who goes into the Holy City or the New Earth? Both have eternal Life.
If we are judged to determine if one goes to the Holy City or the New Earth, then that destroys Calvinism.
This is a dog pile. Why didnt the moderator just debate him.
Please inform the followers of this debate from scripture only, where God has ever been anything other than a choosing God. You will not find it taken in total
The scriptures says it is given unto you to believe
You are quoting Wesley out of context, I'm sure.
Wheather Wesley had assurance or not is quite irrelevent to wheather Calvinism is an accurate way of describing God's election.
What if this idea of absolute assurance is an unreality, a lie? Why do you think that idea is biblical at all? St. Paul seems to think he needs to keep on running the race, he doesn't seem so "assured" in that area. Wesley's teaching on assurance did not mean one is absolutely predestined regardless of ones future actions. It meant that a person can know they have been forgiven by Christ in their heart.
I am arminian and I believe rev Timothy won the debate by the arguments placed and the construction of his arguments, but I think the emails sent by arminians were too harsh and sometimes disgraceful. Don't judge! We are brothers and sisters in Christ and who believes will be saved. We may disagree but remember we are united in Christ.
That man didn't know what he was on about
I understand that the Lord will not be used. In that sense he does have his will. However I don't think he used his will against Mary's, that is exactly how the Holy Spirit works in us.
The Calvinist won !
It is not about winning but pointing things out. You did not seem to know that these things are written in the Bible or that Jesus describes them in full detail through John. Ask yourself "what is the tree of life and where is it and how many fruits does it bare and who are the leaves for?"
Find these answers and then you will know I was not trying to win anything but show you what you do not know.
God bless.
Rev. Timothy Ramsay, the free will is dissapear just about time when men commited sin. Since then man can only being doing evil before God...
We just all need to agree that both theologies are present in scripture lol
John 15:16, ephesians 1:4-5, 1 peter 1:20 ephesians 2:8-9, etc.
Wesley may not have had much assurance in his life at times, but is that the goal of Christian life, really? To have warm fuzzy feelings of assurance? or is it to love the Lord? Wesley's heart was troubled, that doesn't mean that he intellectually did not agree with what he taught. They are different matters. Satans puts up all kinds of attacks against holy people, this is nothing to be ashamed about.
I feel that this debate would have been even more interesting if the theological position belonging to " Jerry from Bristol" @1:20: 40 had been included.
Yes i think i do know what that is, possibly it differs from your definition. But please have mercy, it is past 1 am here on Croatian coast and it seams i'm not (pre)destined to sleep but i think i must try to ;) So let us finish this some other time.
Cheers
I'm a Calvinist, and could of done better to defend the Doctrines of Grace! I love you brother Angus but that was poor. I know you meant well but defending Christ teachings is serious.
Why do you believe Paul tried making the Jews jealous to win them over to Christ in Rom 11? How can jealousy play a role in the reformed position of salvation?
Thanks.
Arminians are the ones that cannot explain many of their belief's, so they resort to name calling and straw man arguments. They also don't want to allow any debate on the matter, so they always are the ones that disable the comment section on their video's! I am not a Calvinist, but it is found in the Holy Bible, I would also expand on the 5th point and call it preservation not perseverance, as God is the saviour and He will keep those that are His elect born again children!
ISAS if saved always saved!
Romans 8:31-39
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you want to really listen to name calling by the top "DOGS" of Calvinism you do well in listening to the "Strange Fire conference" initiated by Calvinists belittling and laughing at Evangelicals demonstrating the true Doctors of division. In the body of Christ. Its a shameful day for the church.
Rafy Vazquez Do you believe in conditional or eternal salvation?
it is very interesting that the arminian argument is able to be seen as equal or better that the Calvinist by viewers, you have to really have a wrong view of God and be willing to twist all scriptures in order to believe this, in all points Stewart proved Calvinism is correct.
Sooo, the host was "searching for God" and knew that he was searching "in all the wrong places"....um, HOW did he know they were wrong? Where did that understanding that in fact Jesus alone is Lord and the only way, come from? WHY did he see in Christ "the wisdom and power of God", and saw only lies in all other claims? Can he attribute this to his OWN wisdom? Prudence? Virtue? Hardly! ...his own testimony reveals the truth of SOVEREIGN-grace. (1 Cor 2:23-24)
And, by the host's logic, I guess God gave a Christ-hating, blaspheming persecutor named Saul of Tarsus a revelation of Christ BECAUSE Saul's heart was pure and sincere towards Jesus? Is that how it went? My goodness!!
The host quotes Proverbs "Train up a child...and when he is old, he will not depart from it", but states he was raised a MUSLIM! ....does he even get the contradiction in his own logic???
The Absolute Sovereign choice of God in salvation is inescapable, even in the false, inconsistent gospel that is widely believed today by 90% of professing Christianity. God made every atom of every human being who ever lived. Its amazing that we see musicians and athletes and are quick to say that those gifts came from God---not from the people themselves...but yet when it comes to salvation they think entirely the opposite....
Lets just assume for a moment that the gospel that this man teaches is true...lets assume that God has left the ultimate choice in salvation to each man....
Now, answer this: WHO instilled the wisdom, prudence, desire to turn to God and do the right thing in the ones who chose to be saved? It was GOD. And WHO is it that DEPRIVED the others from those virtues and sensibilities from the others who chose not to believe? Answer is GOD! And WHO absolutely knew the final destiny of every man before He even brought them into this world---yet chose to bring these "doomed from the womb" people into the world anyway? GOD! You see, those who oppose the gospel that God chooses in salvation think that God does not know the future and that God is hoping for the salvation of those who He already knows will NEVER repent and believe! The people that believe the false gospel that man chooses ultimately in salvation believe that there is something in man that is OUTSIDE God's own meticulous creative work. If a car manufacturer produces a car in which 90% of the cars pull to the left, is it the car's own doing? Or is it the manufacturer's doing?
In the Book of Job, we see when God speaks about the Ostrich, who is careless with her young, that it is God that deprived the ostrich of this instinct. Do you think that God said this because He cares about ostriches? Or to prove a point about all His creation?
FACE THE MUSIC! GOD CHOOSES IN SALVATION. NOWHERE TO RUN. NOWHERE TO HIDE.
I am waiting for a refutation of what I just said from those who so hate predestination unto salvation, particular atonement, God's complete success in saving His own, Christ's complete success on the cross.
I agreed with almost everything Rev. Angus Stewart says except for his doctrine on hell. Traditionally Calvinists believe that there is a differentiation between the realm of the dead(Hades) and the place of eternal condemnation(Hell or Gehenna).
All of the dead are in a place called Hades which has two compartments. The saved are in the side of Hades known as "Abraham's bosom" and they live in paradise as they await the future glory of heaven. The damned are presenting being punished for their sins on the other side of Hades until the Day of Judgement when they will be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan and his demons.
The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord! Believers go to heaven, not go into some separate compartment in Hell lol unbelievers go to hell and then the lake of fire.
For a start the host is completely bias towards the Armenian, and is too stubborn to the Calvinist's biblical points, he seems to be controlling the debate, and gets rid of all flow. If he was to stop reading emails and let them debate against each other we may hear a few good arguments and hear a clear winner.
salvation is for all people that come to christ. I 've shared the gospel and people have said wow i feel convicted. I said is there any reason why you shouildn't come to christ one person said I don't want to give up my life right now which I enjoy
titus 2:11
I saw too eggs fried in one pan... ahahaha...
There is no such thing as "free" will. The Bible teaches that all men are born sinners. (Psalm 51:3-5; 11:5; 58:3; Rom. 3:23). Jesus and Paul both say that those who sin are not "free" but SLAVES to sin. (Romans 6:16, 20; John 8:32-36).
It is not always wrong when there is division just because the world says that. Jesus said i came like a sword to divide. Did Jesus do wrong? almost every form of arminianism no matter how you see it sounds like a work salvation. its interesting in 6min the arminian moderator said "salvation comes from grace what do you mean by that" i thought that was very interesting.
The moderator failled to act neutral
Calvinism, ironically, limits God's freedom to grant His children freedom. both sides selectively neglect some texts, jump through hoops to explain some and exaggerate the supposed implications of others. Why do we struggle with God' s sovereignty being compatible with human freedom when we've long-since accepted the oneness and threeness of God, (the trinity)?! God will not fit into our mental boxes. That's a good thing.
Awsome debate
I know I should not say this but........ Free willers, for the most part do not understand why GOD even gave us HIS WORD.......And, they definitely will never (except by a miracle from God) give up their "free will"......... they don't even understand why Christ spoke in parables if HE wanted all men to be saved.......it just goes on and one....... Just pray for one another!!!!
God is not "He" as described in the Abrahamic God's Bible. "He" did not create man in "His" own image. God made many creatures. The delusion comes from believing humanity is the center of the universe.
The question the anti-Calvinist can't answer:
Person A chooses for God and spend eternity in the bliss of heaven.
Person B chooses against God and spends eternity in a very uncomfortable place.
The question:
What is the characteristic/quality that is present in A but absent in B that provides for A to make the infinitely better choice than B?
In your answer, you should avoid begging the question. For instance, if you say that A was more contrite than B, we shall simply ask you why this was so. So we don't want a cause which is the result of another cause: we want the root cause. Commensurately, we don't want a cause which implies some sort of meritorious quality in A that is not present in B.
Good luck with your endeavour to answer the question from your anti-Calvinist perspective. You'll need it.
Let me paraphrase this to see if I understand.... the question Why did my friend believe or respond to the Word of God and I didnt? What characteristic/quality does he have, that makes him or me better decide for Christ? Is my friend better at making choices. Does he have more insight or faith? Is he or I more contrite, humble?
Hidden within this kind of question is a faulty argument and presupposition. Its the idea that actually begs the question of the root cause of my actions; which is theres nothing else but a deterministic cause, outside of self-determination or libertarian free will.
I dont consider myself an anti-calvinist, and I express this in love. But I do know Calvinism denies libertarian free will, making the question a fallicious one. Because the question is begging the question regarding determinism and free will.
The question is also based on the false premise that Non-Calvinist think God saves us based on a personal characteristic/quality we may have. This is also a false premise.
Truth is... Believing, Responding, Choosing, etc. in and of them selves are Nothing without Gods Grace.
If God had not decreed, my humbling myself, my believing, repenting, responding, choosing as something He already regarded, to be the means He grants His Grace on man, then they would all be equally meaningless. Thus, they all have equal value in everyone, only because God made it so by Grace.
So, Its about Gods grace, not my choice. Read Romans 3:22-24. We are saved by grace through faith, not the other way around (Eph. 2:8).
The problem is that Calvinism presupposes, I can't do anything, not even have faith. Thus begging the question, for the root cause. Free will and self determination is discretly discarded in the underlining question.
Granted the Calvinist would not say they are better - Nor does any other Christian say that!! However, truth is, some believe God makes the Calvinist better. But as I explained, you're not. Its a fallicious question, based on a false premise.
So the better way to seriously discuss why I believe and my friend doesnt, is in the framework of who is the author, root cause of my acts of sin? Me or Gods decree?
@@chrscr3sp0 No you've violated the concept of grace by appealing to your ability to humble yourself, and you have commensurately invoked personal merit.
Thus you have revealed the evil humanistic root of anti-Calvinism. Your doctrine is humanism, not grace.
Since it is clear here you've given it your best shot, you are defeated and this discussion between me and you is ended.
We shall wait for another contender.
@@lawrence1318 It's funny how in your desperation you totally misunderstood me and you try to skip over having a conversation.
Its so sad you don't understand the implications of your own sistematic and question. You are repeating a fallicious question some Calvinist said who didnt really think it through, because it sounded good and most unsuspecting christians wouldnt spot the hidden faulty problem within it.
I'm not appealing to my ability to humbleness. Contrarily. Read my response again, You have misunderstood It.
Think of it this way. Did the prodigal son earn, merit or in any way deserve the reception of his father on the basis that he humbly returned home? No, of course not. He deserved to be punished, not rewarded! The acceptance of his father was a choice of the father alone and it was ALL OF GRACE. The father did not have to forgive, restore and throw a party for his son on the basis that he chose to come home. That was the father’s choice alone.
The only thing that makes this quality or any other “desirable” is that God has chosen to grace those who humble themselves, something He is in no way obligated to do (Read Isaiah. 66:2). God gives grace to the humble not because a humble response deserves salvation, but because He is gracious.
Same goes for believing, repenting, choosing, etc, etc, etc. Its All about Gods Grace not the quality or action.
Calvinists conflate man’s choice to confess, with God’s choice to forgive while labeling it all “salvation.” They go on to argue that God is “sovereign over salvation” which actually means “God is as much in control over His own choice to forgive as He is over man’s choice to confess in faith.” making God the author of man's response or inability to respond, which makes God the author of every human action. Even if that is not the intent.
This is the underlining presupposition hidden within your question that makes it invalid and fallacious from the start.
You did not address any of this in your response.
So no, you do not merit a pass. You should actually be ashamed of your attitud.
If you don't want to respond don't. But, that will only mean you are unwilling to seriously engage with this issue or you can't respond with an adecuate consistant answer.
God bless.
Sounds like it was a debate between a Calvinist and a follower of Jesus Christ.
Looks like the arminians chose the wrong PR representative.
The debate appears biased because the Calvinist position it so extreme.
Rev. Timothy Ramsay does not have a clue of what the gospel is. He is teaching Roman Catholicism and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Remember before Jesus gave himself up to the cross he prayed
John 17:9
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
If a man has a free will to let God save him or not then mans free will can let God send him to hell or not the word says of his own will beget he is
What I disliked the most about this debate is that again and again viewers, the host, and the arminian were saying things that the Calvinist totally agrees with. For example, when a viewer called and said that Calvinists need to realize the righteousness and justice of Gods judgement. Well If you ask me, and I'm a Calvinist, I would say yes it is righteous and God would be righteous to send everyone to hell. The question is not why God would send people to hell, it's why would he save anyone? We DESERVE hell. If you say we don't, well that's quite arrogant to say. When they all ganged up on the Calvinist and made it seem like the Calvinist disagreed with some of the most basic principles it made the Calvinist look like a heretic or crazy person! Like come on, Calvinists believe that God loves us when we were still sinners. God must call us to Him, and what were we before he drew us? Sinners! Why does he draw us? He loves us! The Calvinist isnt going to deny that verse, as he said, he gets his authority from scripture. Gods ways are higher and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. If we have free will, than what's the hope in evangelism? That Jesus, the father, and Holy Spirit can try but fail? Someone could just deny them? Someone could thwart the power of grace? No God is more powerful than man.
You only claim to know the Gosple of the Kingdom preached by Jesus but do not have clue where the Tree of Life resides? Where oh evangelical Christian tell us in full detail of our final destination described by Jesus? Tell the names of the places, the things found inside and where does the Birde of Jesus reside? Name these plases!! Come on Mr. Christian!! Tell us! Who are the Kings of the Nations that are saved?
You who admittedly says you never heard any of this but claim to know Jesus!
Anchor was biased but I admit he was hysterical LMAO
I know this is 10 years ago, but I am still shocked that the man moderating this debate is honestly clueless at the (especially) 28th minute of this video where he believes Pastor Stewart is using man's carnal understandin of Christ in the O.T. A.S. is actually using scripture to interpret scripture......the biblical way!!! Man in his natural abilities always seeks some glory for themselves, that is why they can not believe that they CANNOT choose God........ I was so happy A.S. brought up John 17:9 and many others like it........Also, the moderator should have questioned Mr Ramsay on his poor exegesis (which actually is his own conclusion) on God's hate of Esau. It is actually quite sad etc. Free Willers DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD's SOVEREIGNTY AS DEFINED BY GOD's WORD. THEY HAVE NO CLUE EVEN OF THE SIMPLE BUT PROFOUND SCRIPTURES ABOUT THE POTTER AND THE CLAY IN JEREMIAH. ****** I encourage all free willers to get the small booklet by AW Pink called "Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered"******
the real truth is that this debate is a result of the flaw of free will versus judgment. you cannot have it both ways. if there is free will, why is there judgment? i have to agree with the premise, not the conclusion of calvinism. either god is in control or not. but also either jesus died for all or not. it's just messy.
There is judgement because of man's total depravity we with our freewill reject God and incapable if turning to God on our own.
False argument and false choice. Calvinism have mastered the lie of false choices. Either bunnies are all chocolate or the moon is made of cheese. There are no other possible options because I say so! Calvinism and armininism are lies