Thank you for another well considered analysis. Here is another consideration. It is reported that Elizabeth Trentham and Elizabeth Vere had a good relationship as Trentham did with Bridget and Susan. Given the general feeling that Trentham was quite moral, it is unlikely that she had a child with anyone other than Edward and would not have taken in another child unless it were so close to her that it would compel her to do so. The only ones that this might include would be Elzabeth Vere or her brother Francis. There is no evidence for Francis having any affairs. Elizabeth Vere was 17 when Henry de Vere was conceived, so could have had a child. Also, she was known to spend time with Essex and Raleigh and there were issues with Stanley and her a few years later. If Elizabeth had a child out of wedlock, it would be a scandal that would embarrass Edward. There are some who feel that Leicester was the actual father of Elizabeth Vere through either rape or bed trick. To conclude, I think Penelope Rich/Bount was not as sleazy as many have said. She loved all her children and it is unlikely she would have given ne away as noted. So I am not considering her for Avisa.
Dorothea Dickerman's research reveals just that: that Dudley raped Anne and she conceived Elizabeth. The Queen, Dudley, Cecil, all knew what a pickle deVere was in. Makes you wonder just who was responsible for Amy Dudley's sudden death!
I am thrilled for your identification of a second portrait of Elizabeth de Vere. Totally persuasive. It has always baffled me that we have no authenticated portraits of either Bridget or Susan, none commissioned by their grandfather.... not one of Susan, even after she married into the Herbert family, as wife of Philip, Earl of Montgomery. (Bonner Cutting has very credibly identified Susan pictured in the Van Dyck family portrait as a death image, and likely another, but not a formal life portrait.) Have you an explanation? Fascinating presentations...
Hello Joella, Many thanks for your comments. There are many unidentified portraits of young ladies from the period and some maybe of the de Vere sisters, and of course there are many portraits in private collections for which there is no official register. They must have been recorded and maybe one day they will turn up. Kind regards David.
David, thanks for another great posting. As usual full of information, mostly unknown to me. I wish we could talk to the historical figures you talk about. If we solved the mysteries of the ones we are currently interested in there would still be many more to work on. I'm afraid being English born and bred I did not know of the monarchy of man, despite being a lover of history. So thank you for that information. I greatly look forward to your lesson on Diana. Do you have a time line on when we can expect it ?.
Hi there, Yes my wife and I visited the Isle of Man a couple of years ago which was fascinating. One of my daughters is a professional cellist and has often plays at Knowsley Hall where I went for a guided tour. When I found out about the De Vere connection it made the research very special. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Kind regards David
Hello Martin, Sorry to hear that. It is certainly fine on my machine and I use a professional mike. May be a silly comment but just check that the volume control on both TH-cam and your computer are both turned up. regards David
Sir your voice is the most soothing. I only listen to the British because the beautiful diction and high level of the language of English. I listen and fall asleep with your videos to help my insomnia. What a joy to hear your voice and adding to my knowledge. Thank you Sir.
@ 52:07 @William Kempt . could be a limerick for William EMPTY (emp-T) a good description of Shakespeare tomb and ending with William Slye. or William IS Sly or perhaps Williams' LIE. Food for thought.
It would be interesting if Edward had given Elizabeth some 9f his work Stanley knew and had the plays put on in his name knowing the work of Elizabeth s father could cause a problem for the family 🤔
Hi June, thanks for your comment. What happened between Edward dying in 1604 and publication of the 1st Folio is very interesting and something I might look at in the future. Kind regards David
excellent content as always. thank you. have you ever considered researching the possible connection between Mary Seymour and Mary De Vere ? it seems very likely that they are one-and-the-same person, but i have yet to see anyone look into it seriously. would love to see a future episode on it.
William's face in both paintings also look a bit mask-like to me. The famous image of Shakespeare printed in the folio, on closer inspection, seems a mask! Edward De Vere had a Classical education, knew The Court and Court Politics and visited Venice, Padua, etc., it makes sense
Hi Mary, you are right, the First Folio engraving does show a mask, the jacket is front on one side and back on the other, typical of a jester. Regards David
My 13th Great-Grandmother Lady Elizabeth Stanley ** (née de Vere) Countess of Derby 1501-1530 Birth 1501 • Knowsley Hall, Lancashire, England Death 1530 • Chelsea, London, England
There is a Hilliard miniature shown on the Wikipedia site for Katherine Knyvet that doesn't look like her, but looks much closer to the portraits shown here of Elizabeth. No idea of governance or dating, but eyebrows don't match Knyvet's portrait at all.
She’s an ancestor of mine. Thank you for this. ❤
The features and expression in the
Elizabeth Stanley (nee De Vere) paintings are identical to me.
The eyes are the most compelling feature although everything else is trong evidence.
Thank you for another well considered analysis. Here is another consideration. It is reported that Elizabeth Trentham and Elizabeth Vere had a good relationship as Trentham did with Bridget and Susan. Given the general feeling that Trentham was quite moral, it is unlikely that she had a child with anyone other than Edward and would not have taken in another child unless it were so close to her that it would compel her to do so. The only ones that this might include would be Elzabeth Vere or her brother Francis. There is no evidence for Francis having any affairs. Elizabeth Vere was 17 when Henry de Vere was conceived, so could have had a child. Also, she was known to spend time with Essex and Raleigh and there were issues with Stanley and her a few years later. If Elizabeth had a child out of wedlock, it would be a scandal that would embarrass Edward. There are some who feel that Leicester was the actual father of Elizabeth Vere through either rape or bed trick. To conclude, I think Penelope Rich/Bount was not as sleazy as many have said. She loved all her children and it is unlikely she would have given ne away as noted. So I am not considering her for Avisa.
Dorothea Dickerman's research reveals just that: that Dudley raped Anne and she conceived Elizabeth.
The Queen, Dudley, Cecil, all knew what a pickle deVere was in. Makes you wonder just who was responsible for Amy Dudley's sudden death!
I agree with you on the portrait.
Ahh Diana, Can’t wait for your next presentation David ❗️
Great stuff -- that portrait definitely is of the same woman, and looks to be by the same artist, IMHO!
I am thrilled for your identification of a second portrait of Elizabeth de Vere. Totally persuasive. It has always baffled me that we have no authenticated portraits of either Bridget or Susan, none commissioned by their grandfather.... not one of Susan, even after she married into the Herbert family, as wife of Philip, Earl of Montgomery. (Bonner Cutting has very credibly identified Susan pictured in the Van Dyck family portrait as a death image, and likely another, but not a formal life portrait.) Have you an explanation? Fascinating presentations...
Hello Joella, Many thanks for your comments. There are many unidentified portraits of young ladies from the period and some maybe of the de Vere sisters, and of course there are many portraits in private collections for which there is no official register. They must have been recorded and maybe one day they will turn up. Kind regards David.
David, thanks for another great posting. As usual full of information, mostly unknown to me. I wish we could talk to the historical figures you talk about. If we solved the mysteries of the ones we are currently interested in there would still be many more to work on.
I'm afraid being English born and bred I did not know of the monarchy of man, despite being a lover of history. So thank you for that information. I greatly look forward to your lesson on Diana.
Do you have a time line on when we can expect it ?.
Hi there, Yes my wife and I visited the Isle of Man a couple of years ago which was fascinating. One of my daughters is a professional cellist and has often plays at Knowsley Hall where I went for a guided tour. When I found out about the De Vere connection it made the research very special. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Kind regards David
The volume of your voice is about thirty percent of the other sounds and noise I receive on youtube
Hello Martin, Sorry to hear that. It is certainly fine on my machine and I use a professional mike. May be a silly comment but just check that the volume control on both TH-cam and your computer are both turned up. regards David
@@davidshakespeare1767 No, Martin is correct. Your recording volume is set way too low. However, the content is superb.
@@Mooseman327 the levels are unequal because David has such a quiet delivery and possibly isn't listening back on speakers
Sir your voice is the most soothing. I only listen to the British because the beautiful diction and high level of the language of English. I listen and fall asleep with your videos to help my insomnia. What a joy to hear your voice and adding to my knowledge. Thank you Sir.
You are right. I have not issue with it. @@davidshakespeare1767
@ 52:07 @William Kempt . could be a limerick for William EMPTY (emp-T) a good description of Shakespeare tomb and ending with William Slye. or William IS Sly or perhaps Williams' LIE. Food for thought.
Wow, you really wrote that
It would be interesting if Edward had given Elizabeth some 9f his work Stanley knew and had the plays put on in his name knowing the work of Elizabeth s father could cause a problem for the family 🤔
Hi June, thanks for your comment. What happened between Edward dying in 1604 and publication of the 1st Folio is very interesting and something I might look at in the future. Kind regards David
excellent content as always. thank you.
have you ever considered researching the possible connection between Mary Seymour and Mary De Vere ?
it seems very likely that they are one-and-the-same person, but i have yet to see anyone look into it seriously.
would love to see a future episode on it.
William's face in both paintings also look a bit mask-like to me.
The famous image of Shakespeare printed in the folio, on closer inspection, seems a mask!
Edward De Vere had a Classical education, knew The Court and Court Politics and visited Venice, Padua, etc., it makes sense
Hi Mary, you are right, the First Folio engraving does show a mask, the jacket is front on one side and back on the other, typical of a jester. Regards David
Very well done, thank you!
Thanks for your support Elle, Makes the hard work worthwhile. regards David
My 13th Great-Grandmother
Lady Elizabeth Stanley ** (née de Vere) Countess of Derby
1501-1530
Birth 1501 • Knowsley Hall, Lancashire, England
Death 1530 • Chelsea, London, England
There is a Hilliard miniature shown on the Wikipedia site for Katherine Knyvet that doesn't look like her, but looks much closer to the portraits shown here of Elizabeth. No idea of governance or dating, but eyebrows don't match Knyvet's portrait at all.
Volume too low to hear .
David, please speak a little louder and into the mike. Thanks.