Has anyone ever been charged with negligence in a rescue? Or know someone who has? If so, please post and let us know the circumstances. I think others would benefit from any lessons that you pulled out of the experience.
Yes but it must be 30 years ago at least. I was a SAR volunteer in Pima County (Tucson), AZ. It was a brown water/flood rescue call. A man bought a cheap inflatable boat at a K-Mart and attempted to run the Santa Cruz River after a period of heavy rains with his young son. The inflatable was the quality of a pool toy and was rapidly shredded upon the debris pile at a bridge support with the massive water flow keeping them drenched. Fearing the power of the water could dislodge a portion of the debris and suck them under the bridge, Arizona DPS Air Rescue helicopter performed a high risk maneuver near power lines and plucked father and son off the debris pile. Once the pair were safely off the helo on solid ground, the father was criminally cited. That was an "Urban Interface" rescue, not wilderness. While I have been involved in hundreds of wilderness SAR missions including many for unprepared people, I never saw another case of someone being cited criminally. Will add too that I absolutely disagree with charging anyone a fee for a wilderness rescue. That includes helicopters which often are not needed. Sometimes helo's do in fact save lives and are essential. Too often tho, the helo is a high cost, high risk option used in non-life threatening situations. Better and cheaper to send in volunteer SAR on foot using a wheeled Stokes Basket for those missions where time is not a survival factor.
Hi. NPS ranger backcountry ranger for 45 years. NPS doesn't charge for actual rescue (though not sure of Denali -- they require insurance now I think) nor have I heard of any charged with negligence -- though there may be a case or two I'm not aware of. General philosophy is you want people to call for a SAR before things get really, really bad, increase risk for responders or, you know, die. The larger parks (Yosemite, Sequoia Kings, Grand Canyon) have their own contract helicopters during summer, at least. No charge. However, when you're transferred to an approved ambulance (vs thrown into a pickup), there's often a charge for that, though I'm not sure how consistent that is across different parks. It's true in Sequoia Kings though. Although I'd been on a (very small) handful of SARs where you really had to question the person's/people's judgement, there was never a question of bringing charges against them. In spite of what you hear on TH-cam etc., most SARs are legit. Maybe not the true life or death emergency the person thinks, but the call for help is justified.
Yes, just a few months ago Dixie (Homemade wanderlust you tube channel) was charged $60,000 for the helicopter rescue ride. She suffered a significant heart problem on a Idaho sawtooth wilderness trail in 2023 and had top press the in-reach SOS button. To her knowledge the incident wasn't identified as negligent? She is hoping for go fund me to help pay the part no covered by the Garmin insurance.
@@baroque9983 This should help explain what happened to her: th-cam.com/video/PcK3M9I2iKE/w-d-xo.html - also I think a portion of her bill was the time in the hospital.
A couple years ago a friend and I went mine exploring in the Arizona desert. He had his dog with us and she fell down a 100’ mine shaft. Luckily there was water at the bottom. She survived. But what to do to get her out. There was no cell service there. He had to go down the mountain and closer to town to phone for help. I stayed with her to make sure nothing changed on her condition. After about 5 hours the Mohave County sheriff department showed up to see the situation. Later the Mohave County search and rescue showed up. They questioned whether to risk life of a human for a dog. They went for it. There were at least 12 people on this rescue. It was a successful rescue. But the whole time he was wondering what the cost would be for this. There was no charge. Those rescuers were amazing.
The opposite can also be true. I watched an account of a woman who'd fallen off a cliff and couldn't make it back to the trail. When she came up missing, no one knew where she might be. It was her dog that went back to the trail head and led rescuers to her.
I consider that a fast rescue in that situation. In my experience , you get one mistake. All the hair on your neck better stand up when you make the one. You are heading for real trouble if the one causes you to make a second mistake. After the one, you better think over your actions carefully before you do your next move. Great video!
Great content! Just want to add a personal experience and reminder to everyone with an InReach device. I've had one for over a decade, started when it was still a Delorme device. I've never hit the SOS button, but the one time I needed to, my device would not start up. I had flipped on an icy slope on the north side of Mt. Rainier, hurt my knee and initially thought I couldn't walk. Whether from the fall, or something else, my InReach would not start. The battery was fully charged, but since I am often out for days at a time, I had not turned the InReach on before I began the hike. Fortunately, what had taken 45 minutes to traverse, with no one knowing where I was, took five and a half hours to make it back, but I did. Once I got home, the InReach 'reset' (a combination of buttons) worked perfectly, and yes, the battery was 100%, but always turn it on before you go, or know the 'reset' combination.
That's why I carry two rescue devices. My life is worth it. I carrry a Garmin mini inReach and a PLB. One is none, two is one. Chances of one failing are low, but it could happen. The chances of two devices failing at the same time are astronomically lower than just having one fail.
@@TeresaGryder This happened with my old "Delorme" inReach. As I recall, you press and hold the "x" and "down arrow" for 60 seconds, release them, then press and hold the "check" until it boots up. I upgraded to a 66i, and from what I can find (haven't needed it with the new device) you press and hold the "power" button for 30+ seconds.
A decade ago I was doing a conditioning hike after work on the Mt. Wilson Trail in the San Gabriel Mountains and 2-1/2 miles into the hike I unclipped my new Garmin eTrex to check stats, then I fumbled it and it flipped in the air, it hit the ground and started sliding down a steep clif, then it stopped about 4" from the edge where it would have slid off and sailed into the canyon below. I was bummed because I just bought it and it was in a precarious place too dangerous to attempt to retrieve it. I then hiked back down the mountain and called the Sierra Madre SAR and explained the situation. They said they'd go up with me and use ropes to lower a guy to get it. They said they like to practice and so they didn't mind. They sent three guys and we hiked back up together and they did a great job rescuing my unit. They were very good sports and we had good conversations during our journey. They said they do stuff like that, rescuing bikes, dogs...and people. They didn't charge anything for the trouble.
I was just rescued 6 weeks ago from the top of a mountain in AZ via helicopter with a tib fib compound fracture. I slipped on some loose rock as we started to descend. I'm so thankful for the rescuers and all their hard work and the risks they take. I got lucky since we were at the summit and had service, but we did have an in reach with us. Thank you for making this video! I'm sharing it with my ladies hiking group!
@@Rob_the_Reprobate it's only been 6 weeks, but I haven't received a bill. Just one for the ambulance as expected. I imagine I won't since I wasn't negligent.
My local SAR unit has thrown around the idea a couple times of charging people. We just never find it a good idea. 1, do we charge everyone, or just negligent people? 2, where's the hard line on negligence? 3, will people not ask for help because they have to pay? It's always the same decision; we're not going to charge, because we don't want people to not ask for help. We can't do anything about the helicopter or ambulance ride you may get after we extract you, but you won't get a bill from us.
This is all such new information for me. I had a SAR in 2017. A tree crushed me in my hammock. Two teams responded: the local SAR and the hospital 2 hours away (by flight). My insurance picked up the biggest chunk but it took quite some years to pay my portion. It's all such a blur and now I am curious and want to see exactly who charged me what. I do not recall seeing anything from the actual SAR. Just the helicopter and all procedures after. I am also curious if they charged some kind of negligence. I cannot think of what would have been negligent other then the stupid choice of trees. To answer your question on my behalf 'Will people not ask for help because they have to pay?' Yes and no. Yes, I will hesitate but when I know it may be fatal... I will do it. If I am unsure of how serious to situation is and I can reach my physician or someone who can reach my physician... I will do that. Since then: I have reached-out to SAR in the past in regards to no-contact with my then-teens on long treks (who may have been lost). They were MOST helpful in asking me very specific questions. ie, 'do they have shelter? do they have basic wilderness knowledge? do they have water?' things like this made me realize how much I can trust them and be ok if they forget to 'check in' on the Garmin. Skip ahead a year and one then 16yo went dark on a 50mile trek with 2 others. I asked myself all those questions and was rewarded with quiet confidence that they were fine. On their last day I received a Garmin message from him that required a fast retrieval. Rhabdomyolysis. But I was able to ask him detailed questions... call our physician... drive to his location. Hike in, take his pack, escort him home and 'flood him like a rice paddy' (Dr's orders). I learned a hard way -to take extra precautions, especially with my now-adult children, and I am SO INCREDIBLY grateful for the SAR teams who took an entire night to aid me and my scared family, in a super remote area. Requiring their own wilderness skills, strength, people skills, improvisation coupled with their medical knowledge. Without them, I would not be here. I am indebted to them for keeping me sane when my own children naturally followed in my footsteps and became adventurers.
@@Hcontos It's great to hear that your local SAR folks were there to help, as well as ease your mind with your children. I can't count the number of times we've been called out because someone didn't check in, and when we find them, they are fine, just unable to get a message out. But we would rather do that a thousand times than someone not call us, and find out later that something bad did happen. Your response to the "pay" issue is exactly what we want to avoid, and I appreciate the input. We don't want people to wait until they think the situation has become life or death. At that point, it's usually far beyond and potentially too late. If you sprain your ankle, call us so we can get you out. Don't struggle on that ankle until you can't walk, you're out of food/water, and realize that you can't get yourself out. We're at least 2-3 hours from getting to you, and another couple/few hours from getting you out, and circumstances like weather can change in a heartbeat.
Hiking Guy is one of the best outdoor life content creators. I’ve always appreciated his very practical and tactical advice with no fluff. his emails are also really informative. thanks again
I love how the thumbnail shows a helicopter rescue on a golf course…. The way I play golf I am never assured of a safe outcome for myself or anyone in range. Great information for a guy who relies on an Inreach bird hunting in the hinterlands of Montana.
Excellent, fact based, informative, video. I carry an ACR ResQLink Personal Locator Beacon. Yes, I'm a solo hiker & a 77 year old man at that. Warm Regards from Reno, Nevada
I am 76 and never used any of that tech. So I am looking for the right combo including Alaska for future trips. Recently in Southern Utah, made me want to check out the different Sats.
While not exactly the same, the people who life flighted me between Austin, Tx to BAMC in San Antonio told me the costs would be similar to my bill, and they do a lot of SAR work as well.... The total was right around $14,900... Had I not had insurance that covered all of it, they said they then look at things like income and assess a much lower, all the way to the county covers all of it. This was 2012 Travis County StarFlight. (Amazing group of people!!!)
I’m old-school and have been using a SPOT beacon since 2012. SPOT also has the additional insurance coverage that will cover any expenses incurred in a backcountry rescue. The only drawback with SPOT is one can’t communicate two ways. It’s strictly a one way device (i.e. you to the rescue agency) - and even then you can’t specify what your emergency situation is or anything like that. Search and rescue just knows that you activated your beacon, and they will get to you within an hour or two without having any idea what the emergency situation is such as a broken leg, a snake bite, appendicitis, a broken-down vehicle, etc..
One organization you are missing out on is the MRA (Mountain Rescue Association) started in 1959. Regular MRA teams are credentialed in all 3 aspects of wilderness rescue ( search, tech rock and snow/ice). There are numerous MRA teams in SoCal. We are all volunteer and work with LE, State Parks, NPS, USFS, etc to help with wilderness SAR in the area of the team. My team in the east covers eastern TN and Western NC, occasionally being called outside of that area. MRA is the closest thing to a national credentialing in Wilderness SAR. Thanks for the points you made and trying to keep people safe in the backcountry.
You're right. A mere SOS scream with a location is not enough. Two-way communication is vital. There is a huge difference between a sprained ankle and a broken femur. Two-way allows you to get experienced, professional advice about your three options. (1) Provide simple medical care for the injured and hike out yourself. (2) Shelter in place and wait for a S&R team to arrive. (3) Launch an ASAP medivac helicopter. Also, while the InReach is excellent, some may prefer the different set of options and costs with a device like the Zoleo. The two make this market very competitive, which is good for users.
I live in Teton County Wyoming. I've been a member of two SAR teams, here and down in Fremont County. Up here you're dealing with two agencies: In Grand Teton National Park it's the NPS. NPS has its own SAR team. Out of the Park, on National Forest, it's the Sheriff's Office. They supervise a volunteer SAR. The resources are shared to an extent. That said, I've NEVER heard of anyone being charged here, and there have been incidents with flagrant negligence. Part of it, I'm sure, is the calculation that there is no real way to collect from the tourists who are the ones getting into trouble, and the court and administrative costs of trying to collect would be prohibitive.
Cris I was researching this like a month ago. I was trying to figure out why you can't buy travel insurance for when you are within 100 or 200 miles of your home, because that's where I hike. Angeles National Forrest is like 10 or 20 miles from me. I found out the counties in California have a gentleman's agreement where they don't charge each other for rescuing each other's citizens. And there are some states where you're more likely to get hit with a negligence fine, but CA isn't one of them. Not that you can't get hit with a fine here, it's just the state is less aggressive in going after people for fear of nobody hitting the SOS button on their devices.
Yup, very true. I'm going to do a followup video about some of the interesting aspects of SAR, including the agreement you mentioned. I was pretty shocked at how scattered and random it all was. I'm just happy that it works and hopefully we can help SAR out as hikers.
Great information. Everyone who ventures into the back country or even a day hike should view the video! Hikers should anticipate situations that might occur on trail and be prepared.
Good information! I carry a Garmin Mini whenever I go on a hike which is about four times a week. I live in a cellular non-service area and so the Mini is nice to have as a backup to Viasat service.
So much excellent information packed into this one video. Really a wonderful service to the hiking community to have a well researched and fact-based non-sponsored video on this topic. Thank you Hiking Guy! I recently watched the video of Dan Becker’s recap of his recent rescue from the Grand Canyon and they talk about hesitating to use air lift due to a potential $40,000 charge for that. 😮 Are National Parks different..? BTW… are you going to do a review of the Bivy Stick device? I go on so few back country trips that the monthly subscription fee for Garmin is really off putting. Thanks again for all the great content!
Thank you! So a very small number of NPs have "full-time" search and rescue teams. The one that comes to mind is Yosemite; I think they have a team for water rescues. But otherwise it's done by the local law enforcement / rangers / volunteers. And yea, I saw Dan's video, incredible and happy to see that he's okay. I know Dan and texted with him since it happened. His case was interesting because they were in the front country of a location that was closed for the winter. The way it played out with the rangers and plow was def an evacuation though. And if his condition warranted a helicopter, my guess is that it would be free. The NPS also has a budget for search and rescue (covering hard costs). I had a Bivy Stick and decided not ro recommend it because the app would crash on me all the time and it drained the battery very quickly. There's a new Motorola device coming out in April that's 4.99 a month. I'll check it out and recommend it if it's good.
There are insurers for helicopter medical transport. MASA Medical Transport Solutions is one of them. It's maybe a bit pricey, but it could save a horrendous bill.
I recently signed up for the American Alpine Club's membership, which includes rescue benefits or 'insurance' in case you need to be rescued. I hope that I never have to use it. But it's about $100 - $250 per year.
Great video, helped understand how a rescue works with cost etc. One year ago I had a kidney stone start passing in the middle of the night on a overnight backpacking trip. One of the worst pains I've ever went through.
Thanks Chris, I hike the Mt Wilson area regularly and get out of cell service frequently, I purchased the Inreach for the unexpected stuff that happens. I did Rae Lakes Loop last Sept with three friends, all in our early 60s, and my first backpacking trip. I watched several of your videos leading up to our hike and found them very informative. The hike was spectacular, I've got the Sierra bug now, thinking of doing the High Sierra Trail in '24.....thanx for all you do bro....remember.....stop....look up....look around, that's why we're out there!
I’m not sure what the answer to the question is. You only pay if negligent? Or you pay if there’s a helicopter? But in any case you should get insurance so you don’t have to pay anything?
Wait, I watched a video from the channel Homemade Wanderlust - she hit the SOS button on her Garmin Inreach Mini because she was having heart issues. She was rescued by helicopter and was charged $60,000. Sixty thousand US Dollars. Her SAR insurance covered $50,000 but she had to cover the rest.
Thanks Cris for the knowledge and the time to figure out how the system works and sharing it. Theres that dilemma on when to use such a service. Thanks
Very good video! The ten essentials,....I wonder how many can name them? Funny how things change. I did my first 5 day solo backpacking trip in 1972. There was never any expectation that anyone would come to my rescue. There were no cell phones, sat phones, or any other form of communication. You maybe fired three shots, and hoped someone heard that. The sole responsibility for my safety was me. I bore the burden of competence. That is an arcane concept today sadly. That meant educating myself, preparing, and making smart decisions. These days the level of disregard for the dangers in nature are appalling. The amount of money and time spent rescuing stupid people is appalling. People think they can just buy one of these devices, do whatever they want, and mash a button if it all goes wrong (or if they just get the vapors). I don't think the standards for negligence should be any different for new hikers. Using your analogy of the stop sign, regardless when we got our license, we all are expected to know that we have to stop. I can't tell you how many times I have passed hikers miles up a trail wearing nothing but shorts and flipflops with zero gear. It tells me they have spent zero time preparing for what they are doing. Yeah, it's "just a day hike" until it isn't. .To this day the majority of my hikes are solo because I have found that the likelihood of my partner getting me into trouble is way higher than the likelihood that they will be an asset. These devices are a wonderful innovation, but with freedom comes responsibility.
@HomemadeWanderlust was charged nearly $60,000 for her helicopter ride to the hospital. In Idaho. She pressed SOS on her Garmin after experiencing heart problems.
Stay tuned for a video addressing that. Long story short - she had an air ambulance that happened to also be a backcountry rescue. Not typical but I'll address.
Hey Cris. Thanks for the informative video. The "negligence" topic could be a "slippery slope"...no pun intended. Did I see a picture of the current snow warning that is being posted at trailheads in the local Southern California mountains. If so, any educated guess on whether hiking in the recent snows would be considered negligent or not? Thanks. Just curious.
Yea that was a warning sign from SoCal - and yea, I think if you meet the recommendations on the warning, you'll be okay if you need help. The reality is that you'll probably not be charged unless you're very unprepared.
I love hiking in the Grand Canyon, and have trained extensively for those conditions. Although the trails are replete with signs advising against hiking to the river and back in one day, on any given day there are people attempting (and completing) this hike. Does the presence of these signs mean that a properly trained and equipped hiker runs the risk of a finding of negligence if a rescue becomes necessary?
We walked it down and back on our second trip, 1st being a 2 day trip. We are experienced and we came prepared, but we still wound up coming out in the dark the last 2 hours because we were delayed from rescuing 5 separate groups who didn't bring enough water or salt/electrolytes or have lights for seeing the night trail. We had extra of all, and were able to share, and alert the park to their condition. People don't understand how much hotter it gets inside. It's a reverse mountain climb, and not much shade. Always take more water than you think you will need. We had 3 backpacks and each of us carried extra and our own shade. Really glad we were able to help. It would be heartbreaking to see these people in need and not be able to help, especially after it got dark.
At 8:45, you talk about insurance. Generally insurance won’t pay for intentional negligence and maybe legally can’t. The reason is the “moral hazard.” As applied here, they don’t want the insurance coverage to encourage people to disobey signs or similar kinds of idiocy. The real bottom line is to do right at every possible step along the way.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting insurance would pay for a negligence, but rather if you were in doubt as to whether you have to pay for a rescue anywhere you went around the world, insurance is probably worth the cost. Thanks for pointing that out.
Is there a link to the Garmin stats that you showed for types of rescues and locations? Would be interested to see that data. My use of the inReach is for aviation, and if I hit that SOS it because I'm going to crash my plane and I will likely not be able to communicate with anyone thereafter and after watching a few videos lately with all this back and forth between dispatchers and SOS pushers has me concerned somewhat. I used to be a SPOT user, and that was a one way communication on push of SOS
Useful information. I don't see how someone that is rescued from a potentially life-threatening circumstance can't feel some sense of obligation to those who rescued them whether it is from their own negligence or not.
Agree - and I've also heard that some folks who get rescued leave a donation to the SAR org afterwards as a thank you - obviously voluntary but a good idea to say thanks
What you say is true for _most_ people, but there are a few who feel so entitled that they assume that others ought to rescue them. They're often the ones who're so irresponsible, they more likely to get into trouble. Some refer to them as "precious little snowflakes."
Hi! I hike in the Grand Canyon often and have conversed with the GC rangers over the years regarding backcountry rescue fees. I was told that you do have to pay for rescues from the Grand Canyon backcountry regardless of the situation and that seems to jibe with Dan Becker's recent video about his illness. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something? Thank you for your great videos!
Thank you and great question. So here's what I think 1 - It's pretty common for rangers in NPs to tell you that you have to pay for a rescue as a "preventative" white lie. The GC is especially bad since lots of people go down and get tired going back up. I wouldn't be surprised if folks have lied about chest pains, etc. I'm sure you've seen people in way over their head huffing and puffing up Bright Angel. 2 - Coincidentally I had a reader reach out to me about an inReach incident where her husband had a fell and smashed his head open in on the Hermit Trail. A helicopter took them to the South Rim where an ambulance took them to Flagstaff. No charge for the helicopter rescue and insurance paid for ambulance. 3- The NPS is one of the few land managers that actually has a budget for SAR 3 - I actually know Dan and what happened, and technically it was a front-country rescue because they were at the North Rim (even though it was closed / snowed in). When they're talking about a helicopter, they're talking about an air ambulance to Flagstaff, not a backcountry rescue. It's a bit of a grey area here, but I hope that helps. Dan wasn't charged for the plow / drive out. If they hit the SOS button from Cottonwood, it probably would have meant a helicopter to the South Rim and then an ambulance.
Thank you Cris! That makes total sense. I appreciate your very thorough response. Oh my yes…I have seen so many clueless day hikers…especially those tourists getting off the Williams train. No proper footwear and no water. Sometimes 1 tiny water bottle with young kids in tow and they’ve gone down way too far 😢. Quite scary to see. I did have a ranger point out a secret water cache in case I came across someone that was in distress. It’s quite far down though, but that eased my mind a bit. Thank you again for all your great videos, website and all you do! Kim 🧚♀️
@@pixiedust8486 Thank you so much Kim! And yea, the Grand Canyon has been smart about things. They also have Preventive Search and Rescue (PSAR) on the first mile of Bright Angel who just chat with folks and hopefully head off any extreme cases of "getting in over their heads." I've seen them at work often and I think it helps. As they say "ya don't know what ya don't know."
@@Hikingguy Yeah. Close to 100% sure Grand Canyon doesn't charge for SAR. As above -- and you point out -- they can charge for both ground ambulance & air ambulance (approved -- not regular park helicopter or NPS vehicle) but not the SAR. Incidentally, that's both search -- the zillion people that are involved in a large search operation, and the rescue. Your tax dollars at work!
@@Hikingguy Yes, in parks where people get in trouble a lot, PSAR actually makes a real difference in statistics and keeps SAR costs down by prevention. Great program but underfunded.
What budgets are the search & rescue costs applying to? Are these at the state or county level - and does it show up under the ranger, the park? It would still be interesting to see how many rescues and how costly they are. Because we all pay through taxes and fees. A helicopter rescue has to cost > $15000
It's all different depending on the land manager, state, county, and locality. Some places, like counties here in CA, set aside budget (from law enforcement) to cover hard costs. Same with National Parks. But in general, if you have a search, the boots on the ground are volunteers, just like a volunteer fire dept.
It's nice to have volunteers but supplies , tools, maintenance , fuel , training all cost money . And it's hard to see where the tax dollars are going.
@@metzidis The all volunteer SAR unit for the county i live in (in Idaho) dispatches at the request of the Sheriff's department (as in we don't self dispatch). The unit gets a small budget from the county comission and costs like fuel & vehicle maintenance is covered by the Sheriff's dept. Other than that, it's a lot of fundraising and money out of member pockets for training, equipment, incidentals, etc, and we can get some reimbursement from Idaho State SAR. There is no direct benefit from local taxes. It's that way across much of this state.
I watched that video and she got a hospital bill for $1800 and no cost on the rescue, but maybe there's another video that I'm missing? Can you post where she says that?
@@Hikingguy Not sure which video. There are two. She had the InReach SOS insurance which paid for $50,000.00 but was responsible for 12,000.00 for the rescue and the 1800.00 for the hospital bill. She had a GoFundMe going, so hope it was accurate. I think it was.
@@cynthiastandley5742 Just watched it again, okay, it's a little confusing. So the $59k was an air ambulance, not technically a backcountry rescue, and it's confusing. Also worth noting the goverment passed a law where the air ambulance service can no longer charge huge bills like that. I read some news stories where people had pushed back and gotten their bill knocked down to $29k. I'm going to talk to some of my sources about this and address it, because when you press the button you shouldn't have to worry about whether something is a backcountry rescue or a private air ambulance.
@@Hikingguy Interesting. Good to know there is a difference. Although it doesn't sound like there was a choice in the matter. Thanks for looking into that. Especially since I live in Idaho!
Private sar’s aren’t the worst.. tons of stories recently in cali and elsewhere about families hiring a company and so fourth to help them find their loved ones body. While police aren’t too good at that
Just consider this - if you are thinking to yourself that you'd like some help, but only if it's for free, then you're probably not in bad enough shape to be making a rescue team dedicate time to you. That might delay them getting to somebody else who actually needs it. Yeah, the money issue is real, but if you aren't in a life or death situation, a backcountry rescue is probably not necessary and if you are in a life or death situation, please don't make money a consideration in whether or not to seek help.
IMO Is not reasonable to expect a free rescue by volunteers. FYI the wife and I have been hiking together since 1974. Including some canyoneering. We carry an Inreach Mini
those who need the rescue by doing stupid, or just not obeying the POSTED rules should get a ticket. and be required to repay all the moneys for there rescue. maybe even jail time...pending location.
My motto YOU FALL YOU CRAWL . Outlaw backcountry use of cell phones and all transponders. Learn navigate with a map If you cant do that then you don't deserve to use a GPS. My day pack weighs 40 lbs. MOST OF YOU ARE TOTALLY UNPREPARED! As for paying for rescue. If they use a helicopter to search or transport. Just have them pay the fuel bill. That seems fair.
My motto is if I die it’s my time to die. I prepare well with food and water, but if I break a leg or I simply can’t get up then I have resigned myself to die. I died doing what I loved. Not going to pay all these exorbitant fees and go broke. I’m recovering from severe debt and almost in the clear. I’d rather be dead than in debt again.
Hi, enjoy your videos, I'm new to the satellite communicator/rescue beacon world. I was encouraged by your 'non-negligent folks don't pay for backcountry rescues' message until I saw this* To me it looks like that claim is wrong. Am I missing something? *th-cam.com/video/nYGgU12LTAw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Zhb8vUsmStdGfR7B
Has anyone ever been charged with negligence in a rescue? Or know someone who has? If so, please post and let us know the circumstances. I think others would benefit from any lessons that you pulled out of the experience.
Yes but it must be 30 years ago at least. I was a SAR volunteer in Pima County (Tucson), AZ. It was a brown water/flood rescue call. A man bought a cheap inflatable boat at a K-Mart and attempted to run the Santa Cruz River after a period of heavy rains with his young son. The inflatable was the quality of a pool toy and was rapidly shredded upon the debris pile at a bridge support with the massive water flow keeping them drenched. Fearing the power of the water could dislodge a portion of the debris and suck them under the bridge, Arizona DPS Air Rescue helicopter performed a high risk maneuver near power lines and plucked father and son off the debris pile. Once the pair were safely off the helo on solid ground, the father was criminally cited.
That was an "Urban Interface" rescue, not wilderness. While I have been involved in hundreds of wilderness SAR missions including many for unprepared people, I never saw another case of someone being cited criminally.
Will add too that I absolutely disagree with charging anyone a fee for a wilderness rescue. That includes helicopters which often are not needed. Sometimes helo's do in fact save lives and are essential. Too often tho, the helo is a high cost, high risk option used in non-life threatening situations. Better and cheaper to send in volunteer SAR on foot using a wheeled Stokes Basket for those missions where time is not a survival factor.
Hi. NPS ranger backcountry ranger for 45 years. NPS doesn't charge for actual rescue (though not sure of Denali -- they require insurance now I think) nor have I heard of any charged with negligence -- though there may be a case or two I'm not aware of. General philosophy is you want people to call for a SAR before things get really, really bad, increase risk for responders or, you know, die. The larger parks (Yosemite, Sequoia Kings, Grand Canyon) have their own contract helicopters during summer, at least. No charge. However, when you're transferred to an approved ambulance (vs thrown into a pickup), there's often a charge for that, though I'm not sure how consistent that is across different parks. It's true in Sequoia Kings though. Although I'd been on a (very small) handful of SARs where you really had to question the person's/people's judgement, there was never a question of bringing charges against them. In spite of what you hear on TH-cam etc., most SARs are legit. Maybe not the true life or death emergency the person thinks, but the call for help is justified.
Yes, just a few months ago Dixie (Homemade wanderlust you tube channel) was charged $60,000 for the helicopter rescue ride. She suffered a significant heart problem on a Idaho sawtooth wilderness trail in 2023 and had top press the in-reach SOS button. To her knowledge the incident wasn't identified as negligent? She is hoping for go fund me to help pay the part no covered by the Garmin insurance.
@@baroque9983 This should help explain what happened to her: th-cam.com/video/PcK3M9I2iKE/w-d-xo.html - also I think a portion of her bill was the time in the hospital.
A couple years ago a friend and I went mine exploring in the Arizona desert. He had his dog with us and she fell down a 100’ mine shaft. Luckily there was water at the bottom. She survived. But what to do to get her out. There was no cell service there. He had to go down the mountain and closer to town to phone for help. I stayed with her to make sure nothing changed on her condition. After about 5 hours the Mohave County sheriff department showed up to see the situation. Later the Mohave County search and rescue showed up. They questioned whether to risk life of a human for a dog. They went for it. There were at least 12 people on this rescue. It was a successful rescue. But the whole time he was wondering what the cost would be for this. There was no charge. Those rescuers were amazing.
Oh man, glad to hear that it all worked out in the end
The opposite can also be true. I watched an account of a woman who'd fallen off a cliff and couldn't make it back to the trail. When she came up missing, no one knew where she might be. It was her dog that went back to the trail head and led rescuers to her.
WOW..., absolutely ENCHANTING!
I consider that a fast rescue in that situation. In my experience , you get one mistake. All the hair on your neck better stand up when you make the one. You are heading for real trouble if the one causes you to make a second mistake. After the one, you better think over your actions carefully before you do your next move. Great video!
Great content! Just want to add a personal experience and reminder to everyone with an InReach device. I've had one for over a decade, started when it was still a Delorme device. I've never hit the SOS button, but the one time I needed to, my device would not start up. I had flipped on an icy slope on the north side of Mt. Rainier, hurt my knee and initially thought I couldn't walk. Whether from the fall, or something else, my InReach would not start. The battery was fully charged, but since I am often out for days at a time, I had not turned the InReach on before I began the hike. Fortunately, what had taken 45 minutes to traverse, with no one knowing where I was, took five and a half hours to make it back, but I did. Once I got home, the InReach 'reset' (a combination of buttons) worked perfectly, and yes, the battery was 100%, but always turn it on before you go, or know the 'reset' combination.
That's why I carry two rescue devices. My life is worth it. I carrry a Garmin mini inReach and a PLB. One is none, two is one. Chances of one failing are low, but it could happen. The chances of two devices failing at the same time are astronomically lower than just having one fail.
What's the button combo to reset? Instructions just found online start with "turn it on".
@@TeresaGryder This happened with my old "Delorme" inReach. As I recall, you press and hold the "x" and "down arrow" for 60 seconds, release them, then press and hold the "check" until it boots up. I upgraded to a 66i, and from what I can find (haven't needed it with the new device) you press and hold the "power" button for 30+ seconds.
A decade ago I was doing a conditioning hike after work on the Mt. Wilson Trail in the San Gabriel Mountains and 2-1/2 miles into the hike I unclipped my new Garmin eTrex to check stats, then I fumbled it and it flipped in the air, it hit the ground and started sliding down a steep clif, then it stopped about 4" from the edge where it would have slid off and sailed into the canyon below. I was bummed because I just bought it and it was in a precarious place too dangerous to attempt to retrieve it. I then hiked back down the mountain and called the Sierra Madre SAR and explained the situation. They said they'd go up with me and use ropes to lower a guy to get it. They said they like to practice and so they didn't mind. They sent three guys and we hiked back up together and they did a great job rescuing my unit. They were very good sports and we had good conversations during our journey. They said they do stuff like that, rescuing bikes, dogs...and people. They didn't charge anything for the trouble.
Sierra Madre is one of the best SAR teams in the country! Yay for their effort.
@@gdurkee Yes, they're a great team!
I was just rescued 6 weeks ago from the top of a mountain in AZ via helicopter with a tib fib compound fracture. I slipped on some loose rock as we started to descend. I'm so thankful for the rescuers and all their hard work and the risks they take. I got lucky since we were at the summit and had service, but we did have an in reach with us. Thank you for making this video! I'm sharing it with my ladies hiking group!
Did you have to pay for the rescue?
@@Rob_the_Reprobate it's only been 6 weeks, but I haven't received a bill. Just one for the ambulance as expected. I imagine I won't since I wasn't negligent.
My local SAR unit has thrown around the idea a couple times of charging people. We just never find it a good idea. 1, do we charge everyone, or just negligent people? 2, where's the hard line on negligence? 3, will people not ask for help because they have to pay? It's always the same decision; we're not going to charge, because we don't want people to not ask for help. We can't do anything about the helicopter or ambulance ride you may get after we extract you, but you won't get a bill from us.
This is all such new information for me. I had a SAR in 2017. A tree crushed me in my hammock. Two teams responded: the local SAR and the hospital 2 hours away (by flight). My insurance picked up the biggest chunk but it took quite some years to pay my portion. It's all such a blur and now I am curious and want to see exactly who charged me what. I do not recall seeing anything from the actual SAR. Just the helicopter and all procedures after. I am also curious if they charged some kind of negligence. I cannot think of what would have been negligent other then the stupid choice of trees. To answer your question on my behalf 'Will people not ask for help because they have to pay?' Yes and no. Yes, I will hesitate but when I know it may be fatal... I will do it. If I am unsure of how serious to situation is and I can reach my physician or someone who can reach my physician... I will do that.
Since then: I have reached-out to SAR in the past in regards to no-contact with my then-teens on long treks (who may have been lost). They were MOST helpful in asking me very specific questions. ie, 'do they have shelter? do they have basic wilderness knowledge? do they have water?' things like this made me realize how much I can trust them and be ok if they forget to 'check in' on the Garmin.
Skip ahead a year and one then 16yo went dark on a 50mile trek with 2 others. I asked myself all those questions and was rewarded with quiet confidence that they were fine. On their last day I received a Garmin message from him that required a fast retrieval. Rhabdomyolysis. But I was able to ask him detailed questions... call our physician... drive to his location. Hike in, take his pack, escort him home and 'flood him like a rice paddy' (Dr's orders).
I learned a hard way -to take extra precautions, especially with my now-adult children, and I am SO INCREDIBLY grateful for the SAR teams who took an entire night to aid me and my scared family, in a super remote area. Requiring their own wilderness skills, strength, people skills, improvisation coupled with their medical knowledge. Without them, I would not be here.
I am indebted to them for keeping me sane when my own children naturally followed in my footsteps and became adventurers.
@@Hcontos It's great to hear that your local SAR folks were there to help, as well as ease your mind with your children. I can't count the number of times we've been called out because someone didn't check in, and when we find them, they are fine, just unable to get a message out. But we would rather do that a thousand times than someone not call us, and find out later that something bad did happen.
Your response to the "pay" issue is exactly what we want to avoid, and I appreciate the input. We don't want people to wait until they think the situation has become life or death. At that point, it's usually far beyond and potentially too late. If you sprain your ankle, call us so we can get you out. Don't struggle on that ankle until you can't walk, you're out of food/water, and realize that you can't get yourself out. We're at least 2-3 hours from getting to you, and another couple/few hours from getting you out, and circumstances like weather can change in a heartbeat.
@@joshuahill1246 TY. This is extremely reassuring.
Hiking Guy is one of the best outdoor life content creators. I’ve always appreciated his very practical and tactical advice with no fluff. his emails are also really informative. thanks again
Thank you!
Makes me glad to live in the UK where any rescue, regardless of location or negligence is free to those being rescued. (Charity or Tax Payer pays)
Have seen a couple of videos and I already like your no-nonsense content
I love how the thumbnail shows a helicopter rescue on a golf course…. The way I play golf I am never assured of a safe outcome for myself or anyone in range. Great information for a guy who relies on an Inreach bird hunting in the hinterlands of Montana.
Excellent, fact based, informative, video.
I carry an ACR ResQLink Personal Locator Beacon. Yes, I'm a solo hiker & a 77 year old man at that.
Warm Regards from Reno, Nevada
I am 76 and never used any of that tech. So I am looking for the right combo including Alaska for future trips. Recently in Southern Utah, made me want to check out the different Sats.
While not exactly the same, the people who life flighted me between Austin, Tx to BAMC in San Antonio told me the costs would be similar to my bill, and they do a lot of SAR work as well.... The total was right around $14,900... Had I not had insurance that covered all of it, they said they then look at things like income and assess a much lower, all the way to the county covers all of it. This was 2012 Travis County StarFlight. (Amazing group of people!!!)
I’m old-school and have been using a SPOT beacon since 2012. SPOT also has the additional insurance coverage that will cover any expenses incurred in a backcountry rescue. The only drawback with SPOT is one can’t communicate two ways. It’s strictly a one way device (i.e. you to the rescue agency) - and even then you can’t specify what your emergency situation is or anything like that. Search and rescue just knows that you activated your beacon, and they will get to you within an hour or two without having any idea what the emergency situation is such as a broken leg, a snake bite, appendicitis, a broken-down vehicle, etc..
One organization you are missing out on is the MRA (Mountain Rescue Association) started in 1959. Regular MRA teams are credentialed in all 3 aspects of wilderness rescue ( search, tech rock and snow/ice). There are numerous MRA teams in SoCal. We are all volunteer and work with LE, State Parks, NPS, USFS, etc to help with wilderness SAR in the area of the team. My team in the east covers eastern TN and Western NC, occasionally being called outside of that area. MRA is the closest thing to a national credentialing in Wilderness SAR. Thanks for the points you made and trying to keep people safe in the backcountry.
You're right. A mere SOS scream with a location is not enough. Two-way communication is vital. There is a huge difference between a sprained ankle and a broken femur. Two-way allows you to get experienced, professional advice about your three options. (1) Provide simple medical care for the injured and hike out yourself. (2) Shelter in place and wait for a S&R team to arrive. (3) Launch an ASAP medivac helicopter.
Also, while the InReach is excellent, some may prefer the different set of options and costs with a device like the Zoleo. The two make this market very competitive, which is good for users.
This is a phenomenal video. So clear and concise -- and extremely useful.
Great info Hiking Guy. As a recently retired firefighter/medic here in SoCal, in my experience i can say this video is spot-on.
Thanks for your service, it's appreciated!
I live in Teton County Wyoming. I've been a member of two SAR teams, here and down in Fremont County.
Up here you're dealing with two agencies: In Grand Teton National Park it's the NPS. NPS has its own SAR team. Out of the Park, on National Forest, it's the Sheriff's Office. They supervise a volunteer SAR.
The resources are shared to an extent.
That said, I've NEVER heard of anyone being charged here, and there have been incidents with flagrant negligence.
Part of it, I'm sure, is the calculation that there is no real way to collect from the tourists who are the ones getting into trouble, and the court and administrative costs of trying to collect would be prohibitive.
Cris I was researching this like a month ago. I was trying to figure out why you can't buy travel insurance for when you are within 100 or 200 miles of your home, because that's where I hike. Angeles National Forrest is like 10 or 20 miles from me. I found out the counties in California have a gentleman's agreement where they don't charge each other for rescuing each other's citizens. And there are some states where you're more likely to get hit with a negligence fine, but CA isn't one of them. Not that you can't get hit with a fine here, it's just the state is less aggressive in going after people for fear of nobody hitting the SOS button on their devices.
Yup, very true. I'm going to do a followup video about some of the interesting aspects of SAR, including the agreement you mentioned. I was pretty shocked at how scattered and random it all was. I'm just happy that it works and hopefully we can help SAR out as hikers.
Thank you for posting.
So that others may live.
Great information. Everyone who ventures into the back country or even a day hike should view the video! Hikers should anticipate situations that might occur on trail and be prepared.
Good information! I carry a Garmin Mini whenever I go on a hike which is about four times a week. I live in a cellular non-service area and so the Mini is nice to have as a backup to Viasat service.
I’ve wondered this, especially this year when we’ve had so much unusual snow in the West. Thank you!
So much excellent information packed into this one video. Really a wonderful service to the hiking community to have a well researched and fact-based non-sponsored video on this topic. Thank you Hiking Guy!
I recently watched the video of Dan Becker’s recap of his recent rescue from the Grand Canyon and they talk about hesitating to use air lift due to a potential $40,000 charge for that. 😮 Are National Parks different..?
BTW… are you going to do a review of the Bivy Stick device?
I go on so few back country trips that the monthly subscription fee for Garmin is really off putting.
Thanks again for all the great content!
Thank you!
So a very small number of NPs have "full-time" search and rescue teams. The one that comes to mind is Yosemite; I think they have a team for water rescues. But otherwise it's done by the local law enforcement / rangers / volunteers.
And yea, I saw Dan's video, incredible and happy to see that he's okay. I know Dan and texted with him since it happened. His case was interesting because they were in the front country of a location that was closed for the winter. The way it played out with the rangers and plow was def an evacuation though. And if his condition warranted a helicopter, my guess is that it would be free. The NPS also has a budget for search and rescue (covering hard costs).
I had a Bivy Stick and decided not ro recommend it because the app would crash on me all the time and it drained the battery very quickly. There's a new Motorola device coming out in April that's 4.99 a month. I'll check it out and recommend it if it's good.
Love love love this type of content! Thank you, HikingGuy! :)
There are insurers for helicopter medical transport. MASA Medical Transport Solutions is one of them. It's maybe a bit pricey, but it could save a horrendous bill.
Thank you! This is LIFE SAVING INFO! 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I recently signed up for the American Alpine Club's membership, which includes rescue benefits or 'insurance' in case you need to be rescued. I hope that I never have to use it. But it's about $100 - $250 per year.
Excellent,
all Videos should be like this.
Great video, helped understand how a rescue works with cost etc. One year ago I had a kidney stone start passing in the middle of the night on a overnight backpacking trip. One of the worst pains I've ever went through.
Oh man yea I've heard the kidney stone pain is crazy, glad to hear that you're okay
Thanks Chris, I hike the Mt Wilson area regularly and get out of cell service frequently, I purchased the Inreach for the unexpected stuff that happens. I did Rae Lakes Loop last Sept with three friends, all in our early 60s, and my first backpacking trip. I watched several of your videos leading up to our hike and found them very informative. The hike was spectacular, I've got the Sierra bug now, thinking of doing the High Sierra Trail in '24.....thanx for all you do bro....remember.....stop....look up....look around, that's why we're out there!
Excellent information. Thank you very much! 👍
I’m not sure what the answer to the question is. You only pay if negligent? Or you pay if there’s a helicopter? But in any case you should get insurance so you don’t have to pay anything?
Great advice. Thank you for sharing.
Very informative. Time well spent.
Thank you always
Wait, I watched a video from the channel Homemade Wanderlust - she hit the SOS button on her Garmin Inreach Mini because she was having heart issues. She was rescued by helicopter and was charged $60,000. Sixty thousand US Dollars. Her SAR insurance covered $50,000 but she had to cover the rest.
th-cam.com/video/PcK3M9I2iKE/w-d-xo.html
These are so helpful, thank you so very much for your words of wisdom. "Happy trails to you.......!" :)
Great research. Thanks!
Have you watched the recent videos from Dan Becker on his medical rescue from the Grand Canyon? Eric Hanson was with him and also posted videos.
Yup, I know Dan & glad that he's okay. It was a scary situation.
Excellent video and information.
Great video. Been wondering about this for awhile.
Well done
Nice content👍👍
Thanks a lot. Great info.
Great video
Thanks Cris for the knowledge and the time to figure out how the system works and sharing it. Theres that dilemma on when to use such a service. Thanks
Awesome info !
Great exposé, thanks.
Thank you for this useful video training.
Great brief
Thanks for your time
Very good video! The ten essentials,....I wonder how many can name them? Funny how things change. I did my first 5 day solo backpacking trip in 1972. There was never any expectation that anyone would come to my rescue. There were no cell phones, sat phones, or any other form of communication. You maybe fired three shots, and hoped someone heard that. The sole responsibility for my safety was me. I bore the burden of competence. That is an arcane concept today sadly. That meant educating myself, preparing, and making smart decisions. These days the level of disregard for the dangers in nature are appalling. The amount of money and time spent rescuing stupid people is appalling. People think they can just buy one of these devices, do whatever they want, and mash a button if it all goes wrong (or if they just get the vapors). I don't think the standards for negligence should be any different for new hikers. Using your analogy of the stop sign, regardless when we got our license, we all are expected to know that we have to stop. I can't tell you how many times I have passed hikers miles up a trail wearing nothing but shorts and flipflops with zero gear. It tells me they have spent zero time preparing for what they are doing. Yeah, it's "just a day hike" until it isn't. .To this day the majority of my hikes are solo because I have found that the likelihood of my partner getting me into trouble is way higher than the likelihood that they will be an asset. These devices are a wonderful innovation, but with freedom comes responsibility.
Thanks-very helpful.
Thanks!
WHOA thank you!!!!
Excellent video! Appreciate the time and effort to make this.
@HomemadeWanderlust was charged nearly $60,000 for her helicopter ride to the hospital. In Idaho. She pressed SOS on her Garmin after experiencing heart problems.
Stay tuned for a video addressing that. Long story short - she had an air ambulance that happened to also be a backcountry rescue. Not typical but I'll address.
I was thinking the same thing, I just saw her video a few weeks ago and that price tag is burned into my memory now 😵💫
Thanks for the info! Would be interested to hear your take on Jon Conti (TH-cam: I hit SOS On My Garmin InReach) rescue experience. Kind of disturbing
If there were a ten hour course in Wilderness Safety, what topics and techniques would you teach?
Rescue is free in Canada regardless of circumstance.
Hey Cris. Thanks for the informative video. The "negligence" topic could be a "slippery slope"...no pun intended. Did I see a picture of the current snow warning that is being posted at trailheads in the local Southern California mountains. If so, any educated guess on whether hiking in the recent snows would be considered negligent or not? Thanks. Just curious.
Yea that was a warning sign from SoCal - and yea, I think if you meet the recommendations on the warning, you'll be okay if you need help. The reality is that you'll probably not be charged unless you're very unprepared.
I love hiking in the Grand Canyon, and have trained extensively for those conditions. Although the trails are replete with signs advising against hiking to the river and back in one day, on any given day there are people attempting (and completing) this hike. Does the presence of these signs mean that a properly trained and equipped hiker runs the risk of a finding of negligence if a rescue becomes necessary?
I'd guess that if you have prepared and still get in trouble you'll be okay
We walked it down and back on our second trip, 1st being a 2 day trip. We are experienced and we came prepared, but we still wound up coming out in the dark the last 2 hours because we were delayed from rescuing 5 separate groups who didn't bring enough water or salt/electrolytes or have lights for seeing the night trail. We had extra of all, and were able to share, and alert the park to their condition. People don't understand how much hotter it gets inside. It's a reverse mountain climb, and not much shade. Always take more water than you think you will need. We had 3 backpacks and each of us carried extra and our own shade. Really glad we were able to help. It would be heartbreaking to see these people in need and not be able to help, especially after it got dark.
At 8:45, you talk about insurance. Generally insurance won’t pay for intentional negligence and maybe legally can’t. The reason is the “moral hazard.” As applied here, they don’t want the insurance coverage to encourage people to disobey signs or similar kinds of idiocy. The real bottom line is to do right at every possible step along the way.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting insurance would pay for a negligence, but rather if you were in doubt as to whether you have to pay for a rescue anywhere you went around the world, insurance is probably worth the cost. Thanks for pointing that out.
Is there a link to the Garmin stats that you showed for types of rescues and locations? Would be interested to see that data.
My use of the inReach is for aviation, and if I hit that SOS it because I'm going to crash my plane and I will likely not be able to communicate with anyone thereafter and after watching a few videos lately with all this back and forth between dispatchers and SOS pushers has me concerned somewhat.
I used to be a SPOT user, and that was a one way communication on push of SOS
Dixie of the "Homemade Wanderlust" channel paid $60,000.00 to be airlifted out of the Sawtooth Wilderness when she developed heart issues.
th-cam.com/video/PcK3M9I2iKE/w-d-xo.html
Useful information. I don't see how someone that is rescued from a potentially life-threatening circumstance can't feel some sense of obligation to those who rescued them whether it is from their own negligence or not.
Agree - and I've also heard that some folks who get rescued leave a donation to the SAR org afterwards as a thank you - obviously voluntary but a good idea to say thanks
What you say is true for _most_ people, but there are a few who feel so entitled that they assume that others ought to rescue them. They're often the ones who're so irresponsible, they more likely to get into trouble. Some refer to them as "precious little snowflakes."
Hi! I hike in the Grand Canyon often and have conversed with the GC rangers over the years regarding backcountry rescue fees. I was told that you do have to pay for rescues from the Grand Canyon backcountry regardless of the situation and that seems to jibe with Dan Becker's recent video about his illness. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something? Thank you for your great videos!
Thank you and great question. So here's what I think
1 - It's pretty common for rangers in NPs to tell you that you have to pay for a rescue as a "preventative" white lie. The GC is especially bad since lots of people go down and get tired going back up. I wouldn't be surprised if folks have lied about chest pains, etc. I'm sure you've seen people in way over their head huffing and puffing up Bright Angel.
2 - Coincidentally I had a reader reach out to me about an inReach incident where her husband had a fell and smashed his head open in on the Hermit Trail. A helicopter took them to the South Rim where an ambulance took them to Flagstaff. No charge for the helicopter rescue and insurance paid for ambulance.
3- The NPS is one of the few land managers that actually has a budget for SAR
3 - I actually know Dan and what happened, and technically it was a front-country rescue because they were at the North Rim (even though it was closed / snowed in). When they're talking about a helicopter, they're talking about an air ambulance to Flagstaff, not a backcountry rescue. It's a bit of a grey area here, but I hope that helps. Dan wasn't charged for the plow / drive out. If they hit the SOS button from Cottonwood, it probably would have meant a helicopter to the South Rim and then an ambulance.
Thank you Cris! That makes total sense. I appreciate your very thorough response. Oh my yes…I have seen so many clueless day hikers…especially those tourists getting off the Williams train. No proper footwear and no water. Sometimes 1 tiny water bottle with young kids in tow and they’ve gone down way too far 😢. Quite scary to see. I did have a ranger point out a secret water cache in case I came across someone that was in distress. It’s quite far down though, but that eased my mind a bit. Thank you again for all your great videos, website and all you do! Kim 🧚♀️
@@pixiedust8486 Thank you so much Kim! And yea, the Grand Canyon has been smart about things. They also have Preventive Search and Rescue (PSAR) on the first mile of Bright Angel who just chat with folks and hopefully head off any extreme cases of "getting in over their heads." I've seen them at work often and I think it helps. As they say "ya don't know what ya don't know."
@@Hikingguy Yeah. Close to 100% sure Grand Canyon doesn't charge for SAR. As above -- and you point out -- they can charge for both ground ambulance & air ambulance (approved -- not regular park helicopter or NPS vehicle) but not the SAR. Incidentally, that's both search -- the zillion people that are involved in a large search operation, and the rescue. Your tax dollars at work!
@@Hikingguy Yes, in parks where people get in trouble a lot, PSAR actually makes a real difference in statistics and keeps SAR costs down by prevention. Great program but underfunded.
for horse packers if you lose a horse ..say he falls down a cliff and is dead how do you get him out and who pays for that?
You dont get him out
What budgets are the search & rescue costs applying to? Are these at the state or county level - and does it show up under the ranger, the park? It would still be interesting to see how many rescues and how costly they are. Because we all pay through taxes and fees. A helicopter rescue has to cost > $15000
It's all different depending on the land manager, state, county, and locality. Some places, like counties here in CA, set aside budget (from law enforcement) to cover hard costs. Same with National Parks. But in general, if you have a search, the boots on the ground are volunteers, just like a volunteer fire dept.
It's nice to have volunteers but supplies , tools, maintenance , fuel , training all cost money . And it's hard to see where the tax dollars are going.
@@metzidis The all volunteer SAR unit for the county i live in (in Idaho) dispatches at the request of the Sheriff's department (as in we don't self dispatch). The unit gets a small budget from the county comission and costs like fuel & vehicle maintenance is covered by the Sheriff's dept. Other than that, it's a lot of fundraising and money out of member pockets for training, equipment, incidentals, etc, and we can get some reimbursement from Idaho State SAR. There is no direct benefit from local taxes. It's that way across much of this state.
It appears Homemade Wanderlust got charged $59,000.00 recently in Idaho. Maybe varies with the area or state you are in.
I watched that video and she got a hospital bill for $1800 and no cost on the rescue, but maybe there's another video that I'm missing? Can you post where she says that?
@@Hikingguy Not sure which video. There are two. She had the InReach SOS insurance which paid for $50,000.00 but was responsible for 12,000.00 for the rescue and the 1800.00 for the hospital bill. She had a GoFundMe going, so hope it was accurate. I think it was.
@@cynthiastandley5742 Just watched it again, okay, it's a little confusing. So the $59k was an air ambulance, not technically a backcountry rescue, and it's confusing. Also worth noting the goverment passed a law where the air ambulance service can no longer charge huge bills like that. I read some news stories where people had pushed back and gotten their bill knocked down to $29k. I'm going to talk to some of my sources about this and address it, because when you press the button you shouldn't have to worry about whether something is a backcountry rescue or a private air ambulance.
@@Hikingguy Interesting. Good to know there is a difference. Although it doesn't sound like there was a choice in the matter. Thanks for looking into that. Especially since I live in Idaho!
@@Hikingguyplease keep us updated on your findings. Thank you so much for all the videos, love you channel.
Private sar’s aren’t the worst.. tons of stories recently in cali and elsewhere about families hiring a company and so fourth to help them find their loved ones body. While police aren’t too good at that
So I need a definite 'you won't be charged' because I've been screwed over on government loopholes for pretty much my whole life 😂
❤
Just consider this - if you are thinking to yourself that you'd like some help, but only if it's for free, then you're probably not in bad enough shape to be making a rescue team dedicate time to you. That might delay them getting to somebody else who actually needs it.
Yeah, the money issue is real, but if you aren't in a life or death situation, a backcountry rescue is probably not necessary and if you are in a life or death situation, please don't make money a consideration in whether or not to seek help.
IMO Is not reasonable to expect a free rescue by volunteers. FYI the wife and I have been hiking together since 1974. Including some canyoneering. We carry an Inreach Mini
The victim.
those who need the rescue by doing stupid, or just not obeying the POSTED rules should get a ticket. and be required to repay all the moneys for there rescue. maybe even jail time...pending location.
My motto YOU FALL YOU CRAWL .
Outlaw backcountry use of cell phones and all transponders.
Learn navigate with a map
If you cant do that then you don't deserve to use a GPS.
My day pack weighs 40 lbs.
MOST OF YOU ARE TOTALLY UNPREPARED!
As for paying for rescue.
If they use a helicopter to search or transport.
Just have them pay the fuel bill.
That seems fair.
So cruel 😮😮😮
My motto is if I die it’s my time
to die. I prepare well with food and water, but if I break a leg or I simply can’t get up then I have resigned myself to die. I died doing what I loved. Not going to pay all these exorbitant fees and go broke. I’m recovering from severe debt and almost in the clear. I’d rather be dead than in debt again.
Hi, enjoy your videos, I'm new to the satellite communicator/rescue beacon world. I was encouraged by your 'non-negligent folks don't pay for backcountry rescues' message until I saw this* To me it looks like that claim is wrong. Am I missing something? *th-cam.com/video/nYGgU12LTAw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Zhb8vUsmStdGfR7B
th-cam.com/video/PcK3M9I2iKE/w-d-xo.html
I truly think you should get charged for negligence if children are involved.
Thanks!
Whoa, thank you!!!
thank you!