We are coming to the end of what I guess is Season 2 of the War Room and I do need a thread to follow for the next one... Also, yes I can also recommend the Battlefield: Vietnam series
@@usuallyhapless9481 If it fits your thread the sicilian expedition during the peleponnesian war would be great! Or the wars of the roses, a lot of interesting stuff. Great video again, I felt really bad for the yanks when they were even denied flares
Honestly, by the time a surrounding mission could have been ordered, the ARVN troops were too diminished to do so, and any reinforcements would have taken too long to arrive. So I don't think the ARVN can be blamed at this point. If any blame falls to them, it is probably for being overconfident at the start, but the Americans were overconfident as well. This whole battle was basically one big fire ambush, which probably shocked the commanders into becoming passive. (understandably so) (Also, this is such a nice addition to the Battlefield: Vietnam series. :)
It depends how much psychological impact the VC seeing paratroopers dropping to the east would have had. Even the threat of a decent blocking force on every flank could have made them much more reluctant to risk trying to escape and getting into a chaotic night action.
I play combat mission and one of my most frequent casualties are the m113 gunners In their open hatches. I don't think that the Soviets if they had the btr-60 at the Battle of Ap Bac would have lost Because that armored personnel carrier is outfitted with a enclosed turret. Those gunners could have poured fire into the trench positions of the Vietcong without getting killed. I'm ashamed that we didn't get a enclosed safe turret for American gunners until the 1980s with the Bradley
@@decimated550 Possibly. Altough I do have my doubts about the BTR-60 negotiating all those rice fields. Even most 4x4's struggle with that. That second part isn't entirely true; gun shields were added after the first reports from the troops in Vietnam came in. Also, keep in mind that the US was at peace during most of the Bradley's development, so the neccesity wasn't quite as high, and they decided to take their time to come up with a better solution. The Soviets had the luxury of already having a well-designed enclosed turret from the BRDM-2 project.
@@decimated550 BTR turrets of the era weren't proof against rifle rounds, especially at close range. Which they would have had to get within the 100m to be marginally effective. Situational awareness when you have soviet optics is well know for working in harmony/parallel. And thats all if they didn't get so bogged in the mud they sunk.
In a 1946 interview, Vo Nguyen Giap, the Vietnamese general who fought the Japanese occupation, orchestrated the insurgencies that led to the military defeat of both the French and the Americans, stated, "My fighting gospel is T.E. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom . I am never without it." CMSF2 Marine Corp Campaign’s last mission was such a headache playing along with you, each inch of the map had to be treated differently. Could’ve learnt a thing from T.E. Lawrence. Beautiful map though. Wonder if it’s real.
It's around here: www.google.com/maps/place/Al-Arous+Caravansarai/@33.7844331,36.5982848,16508m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x1518e6dc413cc6a7:0x877546f4882af620!2sSyria!3b1!8m2!3d34.802075!4d38.996815!16zL20vMDZ2YmQ!3m5!1s0x15188960b04a0a41:0xdff9de4fd6404e8b!8m2!3d33.7894149!4d36.5713742!16s%2Fg%2F11by_pjyvf?hl=en&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTExNy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
I appreciate the emphasis on the competence (indeed, excellence?) of the Viet Cong forces here. The bias in the information available probably favours apportioning blame where it's obvious - the failings of the ARVN and their US advisors. I would probably have missed the significance of the good defensive positions and tight fire discipline if it weren't highlighted.
I've watched every video of yours for the last year and just realized I'm not subscribed. I apologize for my oversight. I love your content and watch everything the moment it is released. Thank you so much!
This battle features prominently near the beginning of Neil Sheehan’s *Bright Shining Lie* which uses JP Vann as a lens for viewing the long arc of the war
There's one video left in this 'season' (we did the 'Birth of Modern Warfare' in the first season, now we're doing 'Battles Hapless thinks are interesting'). Not sure where we're going for Season 3, but those are all solid options.
And there you have it, in 1963. This showcase of a FUBAR of an operation was an indicator of what was to come. I've read about Ap Bac in 'The bright shining lie'. No way to win a war like this.
I mean, seven infantry companies, an armoured cavalry company, a special forces comany and an airborne company with generous artillery and close air support against an enemy with no anti air or anti tank capabilities, outnumbered five to one is not a fight you should ve able to lose. The levwl of colossal incompetwnce displayed here by the ARVN commanders is staggering.
A squad leader named Nguyễn Văn Đừng of the 2nd platoon, 1st Company 514th Battalion VC and his squad were hailed as martyrs following this battle where he and his men jumped up from their foxholes located behind an ancient tombstone and threw grenades into the leading M113, allegedly destroying it. However, Đừng along with two of his men were killed following the course of action, the civilians sympathised with VC's causes in Định Tường (Tiền Giang today) called them "The Ironclad Squadron".
Great video, would like you to do more of these. I was wondering where the illustration\map at the end of the video is from. If it’s from a book I would like to get it. Thanks
Diem would end up being overthrown and executed in an ARVN coup encouraged by the United States, so maybe prioritizing loyalty in the army wasn't the worst idea?
What I don't understand is why the US couldn't twist their arm to install their own Praetorians (say a unit or two of Marines). They had them on Hispaniola (i forget which dictator). This would almost certainly secure him against any coups and allow for focus on meritocracy. But I suspect these dictators don't always trust the US either (I read how there were periods when CIA was effectively banned by the Shah from Iran because they worried him: all the while Americans were exclusively supportive and worried about him 😂).
@ well the problem here is that the US (understandably) didn’t like Diem. They felt his arbitrary rule, and especially his favoritism toward Catholics like him in an overwhelmingly Buddhist country (see the mass raids on Buddhist temples by his special forces) made him unreliable and a source of unnecessary tension and unrest. So they didn’t feel the need to protect him.
@@jerryle379 That was what was written of him. "his new job put him in charge of all United States personnel in his region, where he advised the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) commander to the region and became the first American civilian to command U.S. regular troops in combat. His position was the equivalent in responsibilities of a major general in the US Army." He wore Kaki Shirts with Two Stars on them, and was a Civilian. Three days after the Battle of Kontum 2 May - 1 July 1972, Vann was killed when his helicopter crashed into a grove of trees near a village cemetery. The standard view of this period is that after Ho Chi Minh's death in September 1969, Giáp lost a power struggle in 1972 shortly after the failed Easter Offensive where he was blamed by the Politburo for the offensive's failure. The Easter Offensive, also known as the 1972 spring-summer offensive (Vietnamese: Chiến dịch Xuân-Hè 1972) by North Vietnam, or the Red Fiery Summer (Mùa hè đỏ lửa) He beat him HARD with B52s, just as Neil Sheehan objected to and wrote a Pulitzer Prize-winning Vietnam history and biography of Vann, A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam. He is a Demi-God of War. He and Bill Plumley.
When your ally is puppet and fraud, maybe you shouldn't make any tactical decisions at all. Don't dig your own hole and then complain about being stuck in it.
PLEASE make more episodes on Vietnam! Such an under-examined conflict when it comes to tactical battles like this one.
The battlefield:Vietnam episodes als provide an excellent breakdown, I can highly recommend them.
We are coming to the end of what I guess is Season 2 of the War Room and I do need a thread to follow for the next one...
Also, yes I can also recommend the Battlefield: Vietnam series
The battle of Quang Tri (first and 2nd) as well as the battle of An Loc would make for great videos for the later stages of the war.
@@usuallyhapless9481 If it fits your thread the sicilian expedition during the peleponnesian war would be great! Or the wars of the roses, a lot of interesting stuff.
Great video again, I felt really bad for the yanks when they were even denied flares
I wouldn't mind a look at Long Tan or maybe another battle like it where Australian counter-insurgency tactics were utilized like at Long Tan.
Honestly, by the time a surrounding mission could have been ordered, the ARVN troops were too diminished to do so, and any reinforcements would have taken too long to arrive. So I don't think the ARVN can be blamed at this point. If any blame falls to them, it is probably for being overconfident at the start, but the Americans were overconfident as well.
This whole battle was basically one big fire ambush, which probably shocked the commanders into becoming passive. (understandably so)
(Also, this is such a nice addition to the Battlefield: Vietnam series. :)
It depends how much psychological impact the VC seeing paratroopers dropping to the east would have had. Even the threat of a decent blocking force on every flank could have made them much more reluctant to risk trying to escape and getting into a chaotic night action.
I play combat mission and one of my most frequent casualties are the m113 gunners In their open hatches. I don't think that the Soviets if they had the btr-60 at the Battle of Ap Bac would have lost Because that armored personnel carrier is outfitted with a enclosed turret. Those gunners could have poured fire into the trench positions of the Vietcong without getting killed. I'm ashamed that we didn't get a enclosed safe turret for American gunners until the 1980s with the Bradley
@@decimated550 Possibly. Altough I do have my doubts about the BTR-60 negotiating all those rice fields. Even most 4x4's struggle with that.
That second part isn't entirely true; gun shields were added after the first reports from the troops in Vietnam came in.
Also, keep in mind that the US was at peace during most of the Bradley's development, so the neccesity wasn't quite as high, and they decided to take their time to come up with a better solution. The Soviets had the luxury of already having a well-designed enclosed turret from the BRDM-2 project.
@@usuallyhapless9481 Not something I would want to gamble with.
@@decimated550 BTR turrets of the era weren't proof against rifle rounds, especially at close range. Which they would have had to get within the 100m to be marginally effective. Situational awareness when you have soviet optics is well know for working in harmony/parallel. And thats all if they didn't get so bogged in the mud they sunk.
The Vietnam war would be one of my top picks for a CM game. As I understand the CM2 engine wasn't suited for it but hopefully CM3 will be.
you really think that these grognards will ever change the engine? lol
@@mimir4965 Americapig
@@mimir4965 LOL, How your country are so trash.
@@mimir4965 well remember they did merge with slitherine so more resources
In a 1946 interview, Vo Nguyen Giap, the Vietnamese general who fought the Japanese occupation, orchestrated the insurgencies that led to the military defeat of both the French and the Americans, stated, "My fighting gospel is T.E. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom . I am never without it."
CMSF2 Marine Corp Campaign’s last mission was such a headache playing along with you, each inch of the map had to be treated differently. Could’ve learnt a thing from T.E. Lawrence.
Beautiful map though. Wonder if it’s real.
It's around here: www.google.com/maps/place/Al-Arous+Caravansarai/@33.7844331,36.5982848,16508m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m15!1m8!3m7!1s0x1518e6dc413cc6a7:0x877546f4882af620!2sSyria!3b1!8m2!3d34.802075!4d38.996815!16zL20vMDZ2YmQ!3m5!1s0x15188960b04a0a41:0xdff9de4fd6404e8b!8m2!3d33.7894149!4d36.5713742!16s%2Fg%2F11by_pjyvf?hl=en&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTExNy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
I appreciate the emphasis on the competence (indeed, excellence?) of the Viet Cong forces here. The bias in the information available probably favours apportioning blame where it's obvious - the failings of the ARVN and their US advisors. I would probably have missed the significance of the good defensive positions and tight fire discipline if it weren't highlighted.
I've watched every video of yours for the last year and just realized I'm not subscribed. I apologize for my oversight. I love your content and watch everything the moment it is released. Thank you so much!
Exceptional video, never even heard of this
Thanks very much!
This battle features prominently near the beginning of Neil Sheehan’s *Bright Shining Lie* which uses JP Vann as a lens for viewing the long arc of the war
Love this series, I was wondering when the next war room was coming out. Commenting to boost in the algorithm!
Every six weeks! -ish. Mostly.
Excellent video!! Thank you for making it.
Can you do more war rooms like Monte Cassino , Dien bien phu and Lam Son 719 ?
There's one video left in this 'season' (we did the 'Birth of Modern Warfare' in the first season, now we're doing 'Battles Hapless thinks are interesting'). Not sure where we're going for Season 3, but those are all solid options.
@@usuallyhapless9481 videos about recce, cavalry, and skirmishing would be fun!
Very well done. Thank you
YOU SEE USA ARE SUCKS!
ARVN morale eventually got so bad US helicopter transport crews had to push them out forcibly. Talk about US backing the wrong horse in a civil war.
SEE? USA ARE SUCK COUNTRY!
And there you have it, in 1963. This showcase of a FUBAR of an operation was an indicator of what was to come. I've read about Ap Bac in 'The bright shining lie'. No way to win a war like this.
I mean, seven infantry companies, an armoured cavalry company, a special forces comany and an airborne company with generous artillery and close air support against an enemy with no anti air or anti tank capabilities, outnumbered five to one is not a fight you should ve able to lose.
The levwl of colossal incompetwnce displayed here by the ARVN commanders is staggering.
A squad leader named Nguyễn Văn Đừng of the 2nd platoon, 1st Company 514th Battalion VC and his squad were hailed as martyrs following this battle where he and his men jumped up from their foxholes located behind an ancient tombstone and threw grenades into the leading M113, allegedly destroying it. However, Đừng along with two of his men were killed following the course of action, the civilians sympathised with VC's causes in Định Tường (Tiền Giang today) called them "The Ironclad Squadron".
Hali to Nguyễn Văn Đừng! Glory to the Ho Chi Minh! Death of USA! Death of the West!
Great video, would like you to do more of these. I was wondering where the illustration\map at the end of the video is from. If it’s from a book I would like to get it. Thanks
I found with an image search. It looks very much like it's from one of the older Osprey books, but I have no idea which one
Diem would end up being overthrown and executed in an ARVN coup encouraged by the United States, so maybe prioritizing loyalty in the army wasn't the worst idea?
I think it was probably one of those "trying to fix it makes it worse" problems
TOU SEE THE WESTERN WORLD ARE SO MUCH INCOMPETENCE! SO MUCH POOP! AMERICA ARE THE WORST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD! GO Z!
What I don't understand is why the US couldn't twist their arm to install their own Praetorians (say a unit or two of Marines). They had them on Hispaniola (i forget which dictator).
This would almost certainly secure him against any coups and allow for focus on meritocracy.
But I suspect these dictators don't always trust the US either (I read how there were periods when CIA was effectively banned by the Shah from Iran because they worried him: all the while Americans were exclusively supportive and worried about him 😂).
@ well the problem here is that the US (understandably) didn’t like Diem. They felt his arbitrary rule, and especially his favoritism toward Catholics like him in an overwhelmingly Buddhist country (see the mass raids on Buddhist temples by his special forces) made him unreliable and a source of unnecessary tension and unrest. So they didn’t feel the need to protect him.
_The Battle of Ap Bac Vietnam: They Did Everything But Learn from It_ by David M. Toczek is an excellent book on this battle.
Great video!
Thanks for the video, could you please post your sources as I am interested to learn more. Thank you
Great series. Ever think about doing an episode on a battle in the Ukraine war?
It's a little too topical right now, I think. Not simply for matters of taste, but because it will be a long time until we get all the details.
Been reading 'A Bright Shining Lie' by any chance?
I have not, actually. I probably should have.
battle of Kapyong, please? 22-27 April 1951, 27 Commonwealth Brigade versus 118th and 60th Divisions PLA
Sometimes, aggression is all you really need, I guess.
John Paul Vann beat General Giap and forced him into retirement.
What ?
@@jerryle379 That was what was written of him. "his new job put him in charge of all United States personnel in his region, where he advised the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) commander to the region and became the first American civilian to command U.S. regular troops in combat. His position was the equivalent in responsibilities of a major general in the US Army." He wore Kaki Shirts with Two Stars on them, and was a Civilian.
Three days after the Battle of Kontum 2 May - 1 July 1972, Vann was killed when his helicopter crashed into a grove of trees near a village cemetery. The standard view of this period is that after Ho Chi Minh's death in September 1969, Giáp lost a power struggle in 1972 shortly after the failed Easter Offensive where he was blamed by the Politburo for the offensive's failure. The Easter Offensive, also known as the 1972 spring-summer offensive (Vietnamese: Chiến dịch Xuân-Hè 1972) by North Vietnam, or the Red Fiery Summer (Mùa hè đỏ lửa)
He beat him HARD with B52s, just as Neil Sheehan objected to and wrote a Pulitzer Prize-winning Vietnam history and biography of Vann, A Bright Shining Lie: John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam.
He is a Demi-God of War.
He and Bill Plumley.
🤔
This battle seems like a microcosm of why the US mission in Vietnam failed . . . tactical decisions made for political reasons.
US tactics changed over time, so no. The war was lost because they lost the political war.
When your ally is puppet and fraud, maybe you shouldn't make any tactical decisions at all. Don't dig your own hole and then complain about being stuck in it.
@@larsdejong7396 good thing they learned their lesson and didn't blunder into the exact same scenario again. that would be silly
@@PiresArsenalLegend "Over time", not: once they got involved.
@@PiresArsenalLegend fuckUSA,Fuckwesternpig
History content with no sources? Shame
What a joke