Former atheist here. You are a very respectful, genuine Christian and give Christianity a good name. My biggest issue overcoming my conversion to Jesus was the negative subconscious perceptions I had of Christianity. When I discovered this, only then did I develop my own personal testimony of the Savior. I just can't stand the state of much of Christianity right now. Hypocrites and casting stones at each other, instead of simply learning about each other. It's ok to not have the same beliefs, no need to cast hell on others because of it. Ultimately as a new Christian as long as we know that 1. Jesus is the Christ and 2. EMBODY Charity aka Jesus (serve, love strangers, love our enemies etc...) then things will work out in the end for Christians, no matter which of the 200+ denominations in the US you believe. The thing is every denomination firmly believes they hold the correct doctrines, which leaves many of us on the losing end of truth just off the odds alone. I'm not saying to NOT have your own believes on baptism, the bible, interpretation etc..I'm just saying to remember that we are one in hundreds of different mingled interpretations. Someone has to be wrong...in fact, most of us HAS to be wrong off statistics alone. (I know, it's a tough pill to swallow) ANYWAYS haha no more tangent. I love Jesus, and I appreciate your open and NONBIASED review on Mormonism. People hate on them so much, meanwhile I see Mormons out serving and helping others, embodying charity. I love that about them. Keep up the good work brother.
Joseph Smith was also bothered with the religious contention, as you explained. Read this part of his history here to see just how similar your described experience is to his (especially verse 9-10): “5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, “Lo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist. 6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued-priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions. 7 I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father’s family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely, my mother, Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia. 8 During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong. 9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others. 10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?” To read more and his answer for how to “know it”, please read the rest of Joseph Smith History 1:10-26 found on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints website
@@lizclaridge1335 He does not understand.God is an exalted man but God is from everlasting to everlasting because hes an eternal self-existing intelligence. there were men sitting up on thrones in God's Presence that John saw. Kings who had already won their crowns of Eternal Life that Paul was talking about that the righteous saints were promised to receive crowns in heaven. Those saints had already received their crowns from God being joint heirs now with Christ and with God. They are no longer Saints anymore but are now Lords and Kings unto God.... So I can't understand why he thinks the purpose of being a saint is just to be saved, no eternal life is much more than that. its about inheriting crowns.
@mission ion We all are broken and flawed. Besides the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I don’t know of any other group or organization, that, collectively, better represents the embodiment of Christian practices and values - Its practicing members strive to live morally clean lives, abstain from drugs and alcohol, abide the law, have a great work ethic, help others, etc. Have you by chance studied the teachings of the Church? Attended its services?
Reflecting and pondering other people's beliefs is not a hateful thing. It is actually love because God put us here to love each other and help each other get to heaven. God IS pure love. No matter how many Christian denominations there are, the common bond is that ALL Christians believe in Jesus as God. I do not know how many non Catholic Christians there are in the world but there are 1.2 billion Catholics, so my guess is that there are at least double that for other Christians. That being said, makes at least 1/4 of the world population to be Christian. My biggest issue with Mormonism is that members do not believe that Jesus is God. That is problematic because only God can forgive sins and if Mormons believe that Jesus is their savior, and they do not believe that He is God, then how did Jesus save us? My other issue is that if God was once a man who came to perfection, then we as humans are right next to God and He is no one special because we can all do what He does. Even an atheist would not find that logical. Who created the first man then, who was the first God, and so on? Can you explain that because it makes no sense to me. I would like to understand Mormon thinking but I cannot if no one is willing to explain the rudimentary beliefs. Peace be with you!
I wish he was more blunt with historical facts about Joseph Smith. He was imprisoned for ordering the printing to be burned down but that’s not why he was murdered. He was was murdered for what he was trying to cover up by burning the printing press. He was murdered for his countless affairs(so called polygamy) with young teenagers and married women. Moreover, he was doing so by promising them and their families salvation if they slept with him. He didn’t deserve murder but the people were reasonable mad for what he did. Probably deserved life in prison and castration for rape.
@@samjessup920 th-cam.com/video/IoD5g53z5qc/w-d-xo.html I dont see what you mean Here he is making friends with the pope. And hes been friends with him ever since!
Joseph Smith once said that he didn't blame anyone for not believing his story, because if he hadn't lived it himself, he wouldn't have believed it either. The point is that there are people who have extraordinary gifts that the rest of us don't understand.
Donna, it’s very hard to have faith in the doctrines and testaments of a man who has been shown unequivocally to have fabricated, contradicted, and misrepresented so much of what he proclaimed to be inerrant, inspired truth.
Jeff, as a free thinking Latter Day Saint, a former LDS bishop and regional leader, I love your channel. I am also a former Presbyterian youth minister and this type of dialogue is so important in helping mend a wounded, divided society. Keep up the good work, Brother!
Bishop, I have an important message that I don't know how to thoroughly spread, I know the church already teaches this, but I believe it's going to become more important to change the direction of it. I know the church talks a lot about food storage and the importance of it, the problem I see is people may have food storage, but they may not be ready for the events that are about to unfold given food shortages on the way. I want to organize in every Church regardless their affiliation of the importance of having a garden, having chickens and animals, you know that quote in the bible teach a man to fish. Well anyway, I want to introduce an idea into all the churches to donate a portion of that land that they own that the church happens to be on, and make it an important thing that the community of that church happens to tend, and these trying times food is becoming more and more expensive and we keep hearing about the shortages and we keep seeing the evidence of a lot of these manufacturing plants being destroyed or burned down or Farmers being issued to destroy their crop or burn down their crop and in some cases some of them have been salted by the government, we've heard about this all around the world at this point. I think it's me coming ever more prevalent that everyone needs a gardener, if they have a house and they have land, they should have a garden with some animals that produce, if they don't have land on the other hand say they live in a apartment building, then I believe the church should have a plot of land set up possibly right next to the church or in the parking lot I don't care, there should be a community sanctioned garden for all the members, food has become much more scarce and it will become more scarce as time goes on with all these little things happening right and left, I don't care about your political situation your politics whatever they may be, I care about preventing the loss of life, because with such a important issue as this, I believe something like this may actually save us from at least the food shortages, but I believe it also will bring people together and unite people. I know you're thinking how are we supposed to organize such a thing, the thing is if we don't at least try, we will likely run into a situation where we won't be able to do anything about it because we'll act a little too late and trying it. You tell me what happens when the food storage happens, I will tell you, typically what happens when a food shortage happens, is people go crazy they will steal and they will kill for resources because they are desperate and they are in need for those provisions. I want to prevent that, and the only way I can think of within my limited capacity of thinking, is to convince everyone who has a church again I don't care whether they're LDS or not, if they have a community and they have a church, they can do this one simple task for all churches scattered around the world really, and they could prevent this type of situation from taking place. Not to mention that the people that are desperate that don't belong to the church will probably want to join the church in order to get access to those provisions, at least that's my theory, there might be some bad actors here and there, but I've been taught all my life since the beginning when I was a kid that there's going to become a Time where are faith will be tested and we're going to have to help people in dire circumstances in order to help ourselves. And that job might be a heck of a whole lot easier if we set up provisions ahead of time in order to prevent that type of scenario from becoming so dire that there's riots killings and all kinds of crazy stuff going on. I want all churches to be prepared for this type of scenario, I live in a valley of LDS people, and I believe people can be convinced to do this given the circumstances that are unfolding before our eyes. I hope you see my message.
In March 1826, 21-year-old Joseph Smith was convicted of being a disorderly person and an imposter. Smith admitted at a trial in Bainbridge, NY to be defrauding people by claiming to be a glass looker and using magic seer stones to find hidden treasure or lost property. About 18 months later, he Founded Mormonism by finding magical gold tablets that could only be read with magical seer stones.
Love this! Still LDS, Still have a testimony, Still know Joseph is a prophet and YOU are a good person. Your arguments are articulate and well thought out. I love how well you listen, contemplate and even seek guidance in your quest for knowledge and understanding.
I’m not LDS. Why do LDS people keep using the term “testimony”. I don’t recall other Christians using that term. It feels like LDS use “testimony” as a foundational component of their faith.
@@Zeett09 After pondering your question today I decided to cheat and go right to the gospel library to copy and paste this answer. "A testimony is a spiritual witness given by the Holy Ghost. The foundation of a testimony is the knowledge that Heavenly Father lives and loves His children; that Jesus Christ lives, that He is the Son of God, and that He carried out the infinite Atonement; that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God who was called to restore the gospel; that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Savior’s true Church on the earth; and that the Church is led by a living prophet today. With this foundation, a testimony grows to include all principles of the gospel. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have the sacred opportunity and responsibility to obtain their own testimonies. Having obtained a testimony, each member has a duty to nurture it throughout life. Happiness in this life and throughout eternity depends largely on whether individuals are “valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:79; see also Doctrine and Covenants 76:51, 74, 101). Testimony grows through the application of the following principles: The quest for a testimony begins with a righteous, sincere desire. Speaking to a group of people who did not yet have testimonies of the gospel, Alma taught: “If ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words” (Alma 32:27). Testimony comes through the quiet influence of the Holy Ghost. The results of a testimony can be miraculous and life changing, but the gift of testimony usually comes as a quiet assurance, without spectacular displays of God’s power. Even Alma, who had been visited by an angel and had seen God sitting on His throne, needed to fast and pray so he could receive a testimony through the power of the Holy Ghost (see Alma 5:45-46; 36:8, 22). Testimony grows gradually through experiences. No one receives a complete testimony all at once. It grows as individuals show willingness to serve in the Church and to study, pray, and learn. It increases as individuals obey God’s commandments. Testimony grows as it is shared. Part of a testimony’s development comes when it is shared. In the Church testimony is shared often in fast and testimony meetings, in Church classes, and in conversations with family members and friends."
@@Zeett09in the LDS church, we are encouraged to learn for ourselves and build our own belief and faith in Christ. Testimony is a just a statement of personal belief, and we draw upon our personal experiences to share the gospel.
This series is a breath of fresh air. Most of what we get "out there" is "Mormon Church is the way" or "Mormon Church is BAD", with not much in between. Thank you for your honest opinions about a religion not your own. :)
With every religion and situation there are a million shades of Gray, the best thing to do in this situation is to investigate from the source material instead of getting information second-handedly through alleged people. this is why the church says they're okay with investigators, they're open to it even, just as this pastor in these videos is investigating it, he's truly investigating it without necessarily taking knowledge or information from people that say bad things, he's doing his own research by going to the source material.
One way to approach Joseph Smith would be to analyze him as you would Peter, James, or John. For example, do you read the writings of Peter looking for contradictions to the rest of the bible or do you do the hard work of reconciling what may appear (at first) to be conflicting teachings? Members of the Church do the same with the Book of Mormon and the other teachings of modern Prophets. For example, the book of James focuses heavily on the relationship between works and salvation. If an atheist approached you and claimed that James was not inspired because his writings "contradict" Paul's writings about grace, you would help the person understand that the scriptures must be taken as a whole - that if you are cherry-picking scriptures from the book of James Ex: "Faith without works is dead" and contrasting that with other scripture, you would be really missing the mark. It's completely the same with the Book of Mormon or other teachings of the Church. Imagine if I told you that I believed in a prophet that denied Christ three times and cut off the ear of a government official (aka Peter). You'd probably think I had been deceived. But a closer look would reveal that every prophet and apostle has wrestled with their own "dark angels" or temptations (as we all do). There may be many ways to discover if someone is a prophet, but I think the best is to ask God himself. Thank you for the engagement and sincere investigation! As fellow believers, I think we need to band together for similar causes to combat the great evil throughout the world.
I’ll bet if we had letters or journal entries from Jeremiah, Isaiah, or Moses’s neighbors we would be shocked what they would write down, and surprised at how many times they would misquote the prophet. Even eye witnesses have a 35% percentage of error in a court of law. The prophets are called of God, but remain human and are capable of opinion and error. Also, just because a prophecy isn’t fulfilled during the lifetime of a prophet it doesn’t mean it won’t be fulfilled in due time. Thanks for the review!
Great point. Over time a man (or woman), if their story is preserved at all, is either venerated to a point of near perfection or degraded to a point of pure evil. Neither extreme is likely correct. So the fact that Joseph’s history is so recent (Biblically speaking), his complete perfection or pure evil haven’t fully been distilled in the annals of history. Instead, he is a complex character. And God works through complex characters.
Isaiah had prophecies not yet fulfilled in his lifetime and that doesn't mean he failed as a prophet..... Speaking of Millenial era.... You don't know your Bible. You are lazy and have the nerve to dispense opinion left and right..... Pathetic
That was my thought. Prophecies of Isaiah, and even of the Savior himself took much more time than what was anticipated by many for many many generations.
I’m a member of the LDS Church. I get you having your own beliefs and disagreements. I respect you as a person and a child of God. Your video is critical but I can see your respectfulness and your honesty in truth-seeking, and I thank you for that. It is a unique trait these days. I will be subscribing. You should speak to the Midnight Mormons crew. They’re good dudes and very open to speaking to and learning from people of different faiths. You guys would totally get along.
I love midnight Mormons. I was rlds and am debating on going LDS . The main reason of wanting to go is watching the boys on midnight Mormons. I agree so much with them and they really have made me ponder. I know the church I swear better than some members I have met. When I do talk to missionaries they ask if I was LDS already because I know all the gospel topics and a lot of your history. Plus one half of my family grew up LDS . So who knows . Anyways I just want to say I enjoyed your comment.
@@Crustapher Just happened to see this comment and hope maybe you'll see my reply. My family grew up RLDS and my grandfather in particular was a large participant, he even funded the building of the church in our area. Later, when RLDS teachings started to stray from what they believed the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith taught, they began to revisit with LDS missionaries and eventually because of their faith, both of my grandparents received remarkable revelation that their efforts in the RLDS church were not in vain and that the LDS church was truly Christ's church. Here are two things that might help you that my family's unique background caused us to come to an understanding of: 1. The priesthood WAS present in the RLDS church. How the priesthood works is that any worthy male holder can pass it onto any other worthy male. I and my family know that the priesthood was in our homes and was preserved through the RLDS church. 2. I assume that Brigham Young and polygamy are a stumbling block towards your acceptance of the church. While the church is very reluctant to admit that prophets make mistakes, my family is completely in the belief that polygamy was started by Brigham Young, not Joseph, and that it was a mistake that was not ordained of God. That being said, Brigham Young was sustained by the twelve apostles as the prophet, and he held all the priesthood keys of the church, making the LDS church the only church on earth to hold ALL of the priesthood keys. Brigham Young was certainly a flawed man, but his efforts led the pioneers across the country and built the church up. God chose him because he was the best choice, although there were prices that the church has paid from it. I hope this comment finds you and helps you along your journey as I can testify that the LDS church is the one true church of God, despite the fact that my family came from the RLDS initially.
@@prezp00nage24 That is interesting that you would admit that and I appreciate it that you did. My family has acted as if no modern prophet can do any wrong and yet Joseph Smith then Brigham Young did some pretty big errors or mistakes. If the LDS Church would own up to it, many who left probably would have stayed. RLDS is a different story and in many ways is more willing to harmonize with evangelicals. They accept the historical problems with the Book of Mormon by saying that it is inspired pious fiction and not hitting a rock wall by saying that it is the most "correct" book but hitting reality against their teeth. It is why the Community of Christ is gaining traction again. The LDS Church needs to accept it and then answer to it, or more will leave.
Thanks for another thoughtful, reasoned commentary. I read Richard's book a few years ago, and am grateful you found it. My mother joined this church when I was 7 or 8, having sought a church she felt was right for her since her youth, and I was baptized during my 8th year, and have been an active member until now, having been blessed to live to the age of 72 and still counting. ) During my early 20s, having experienced goodness during my associations with church members and experiences, including testimonies about the inspired words of our four canonized books of scripture, I desired a deeper witness that Joseph Smith Jr. was, indeed, a prophet. I prayed sincerely and as thoroughly as I knew how, and left the matter with God. Several weeks later, He graciously provided the answer, including the typical test-fire, so I know that he was and remains a true prophet of God. I encourage you to continue this very worthwhile quest, seeking, as I hope and believe you do, for the personal knowledge which only our Heavenly Father can, and loves to provide, for each of us. Success with each of your righteous desires!
When I read rough stone rolling I came out of it realizing that in that day and age they were a lot of problems that we don’t understand today. They had a lot of trails And that we couldn’t even fathom. I came out of it thinking what a wonderful man and prophet he was to endure all that he did and still make sure that the Book of Mormon was printed and at the church continued on. Joseph Smith admitted that he was not perfect.. And always ask for forgiveness. In the end what matters is if you believe in the Book of Mormon. Which I do wholeheartedly. When I read the book I had a confirmation that Joseph Smith did translate the words from the ancient records and that it was another testament of Jesus of Christ.The spirit speaks to everybody differently and he may just not get the same answers as others do .. And it’s not just about reading it’s about asking God to let you know the truth if you sincerely desire
At around 5:00 the discussion is about lifestyle and drinking alcohol, and how Joseph’s habits were contradictory to what he preached. It should be known that Joseph also chewed tobacco. Anyway, it wasn’t until he received revelation on the Word of Wisdom that he ceased such lifestyle practices (not referring to polygamy-that’s a different topic). This new revelation came about from his wife, Emma being discouraged cleaning up the floors after church meetings, where the men had been spitting out their tobacco. Upon her lament, he inquired of the Lord and received the revelation of the Word of Wisdom, which advocates for healthy living and instructs against substance abuse and the like. We ought to consider that, technically, Joseph was just as any new convert into the church-he was learning new principles line upon line, and so his behaviors and habits changed as he progressed. It’s not like he conjured up the LDS religion, all wrapped up in a tidy package, with all its doctrines and precepts ready to share with the world all at once. He had to learn just as any new convert, line upon line, precept upon precept, …except that he was learning from divine resources rather than mere mortals, lol! Here’s a really good discussion about Joseph Smith and polygamy with an expert: th-cam.com/video/eITMOB2pNYI/w-d-xo.html
Why ask them to built a temple that they ended up not building? For the same reason that Moses ended up breaking the law that God just gave him, the people was not ready and disobedient. It's not like God didn't know that the people of Moses was sinning, he knew exactly what they were gonna do, but gave the first tablet of law anyway, just to show He always has something better for us, and that we will give it when we are ready. That's how I see it. ;)
Yes!! And he gives us others too!! Like in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Word of Wisdom!! No coffee, tea, alcohol or tobacco….and since then, we of course all learned no illegal drugs. He adds to eat fruits and vegetables (in season), and wholesome herbs, and I am sure that includes legumes, nuts and seeds. Then all grains are for the use of man, meat sparingly, and it is pleasing unto the Lord if meat not eaten except in times of cold or famine. He recommends which grains for which kinds of animals…such as corn for the ox, I think rye for the fowls, oats for the horse, but wheat for man (but now we need to be aware that some have gluten intolerance) but all grains for our use. And he does say that tobacco is for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill. And also that strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your body. And he recommends a barley drink when you are sick. I have never tried that. Maybe just from barley cooked in water. I can’t remember anything else. I thought it curious that he did not mention eggs and dairy, because for most people, they are acceptable foods. And not to eat too much sugar. Or fried foods. Did they process oil back then? He did know we would be educated in the last days about those, as well as about illegal drugs. Maybe he just wanted us to eat mostly the Word of Wisdom foods, and of course, stay away from the harmful stuff. He promises health in the digestive system and body (in other words) and marrow to the bones. And that you may run and not be weary, and walk and not faint. And he promises that the destroying angel shall pass by you, and not slay you. And that you will find treasures of knowledge….even hidden treasures. I can’t remember the rest, but I think that is all.
They didn't get to build the temple because a mob came and chased them out. So they had to leave without building one. Also, Joseph Smith taught (and Mormons believe) that independence Missouri is where the garden of Eden was, and where the saints will gather in the second coming of Christ. I know, it's wierd, because when you think of it, the highly concentrated Mormons are in Utah and Idaho. 🤷♀️
@@kaylaly7811 We believe Smith taught that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, but there is nothing in writing to confirm this. There are people, including Brigham Young, who stated Joseph said this, but it cannot be found in any writings. However, yes, it is widely accepted that the garden was in Missouri, or at least on the North American continent.
@@katherinem.4414 I want to laugh, because I sense sarcasm in your writing, because there are no commas. But just in case you are not being sarcastic, I'm not trying to make fun of you, but if you are being sarcastic, I think you're hilarious! Because as a former member who just left a year ago, I know facts that Joseph Smith and other early prophets did not even follow their own rules. Anyway, good day.
@@kaylaly7811 Please be more specific. Also, how is the claim that Joseph had mortal flaws an argument against his status as a prophet? Did he not strive to live right?
@@KnuttyEntertainment I know Jesus Ascended. I know that men walked with God and God took them to be with Him. Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. I am not aware of anyone ASCENDING to Heaven but Jesus. Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
I had an experience about 10 years ago when I started reading the Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ with my little boys. We started at the very beginning. The introduction is long for kids but so fun to imagine Joseph Smith’s story with them. When I said my prayers that night I felt an undeniable witness that what we had started reading was good and true. For a time I wondered why I couldn’t have had that experience with the Savior. It was just so powerful. I later realized I had! The Spirit and Joseph were both pointing me to Jesus Christ. A Prophet does not stand between you and our Savior, he stands with you and points the way to Him. My understanding of that experience has changed and I have found different words to describe it over the years but the experience itself has never changed. I can relate to Joseph’s different accounts of the first vision. I’m grateful for Joseph and Emma’s continual sacrifices to do the work of the Lord and especially for the restoration of a Prophet and revelation for our day. It is good to see that revelation is a process even for a Prophet!
And how do you explain to your children that Emma was disgusted and furious when she discovered her husband having sex with a teenager in his barn one day, or the 40+ wives he had, some of whom were mother/daughter, etc? And did you know that JS smoked, drank alcohol and coffee and tea? Read his diaries. Joseph did not follow Jesus' teachings, otherwise he would still believe in the church that Jesus Himself established. Revelation is only true if it agrees with what God has already given us. Peace!
@@ShawnGordon It is only vitriol if it is not true. If you can prove to me that Joseph Smith's behavior outside of what he preached is not true, I relent. If not, then he is no better than the pharisees whom Jesus rebuked. They were stringent on the law but did not set an example. Peace!
@@ShawnGordon My mission is to help bring all to Christ. I do not need you to prove anything to myself. I already know the truth. But can you prove what you believe to yourself? Not twisted information, it is all there, you only have to read. My heart is peaceful and content with our Lord. But it does pain me to see people following a false prophet and false gospel. Peace be with you!
@@LetTheTruthBeTold8324 hi! Yes, even in the Bible, we’re encouraged to pray for wisdom. God doesn’t want us to simply trust the Bible is true because men say it is. We need to READ it, study it, apply the principles… which includes praying about what’s contained therein. Seek to know by the Spirit. The Holy Ghost testifies of what is true. “Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.” “5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.”
Life long faithful Latter Day Saint here. Early church history has some pretty messed up stuff. Joseph Smith was an uneducated, young adult, trying to put a worldwide restored church together with a little bit of revelation here and there, being influenced by culture, by other men older and wiser than him... sounds tough. Good thing I'm not converted to Joseph Smith, but Jesus Christ. The restoration has been going on for nearly 200 years now. We're learning more all the time, still receiving revelation and doctrine. God has imperfect, mortal men to work with. However, it is his work and I believe it to be true.
Actually, the restoration happened at Pentecost, when the promise of the Holy Spirit filled the disciples in what is known as the upper room. Christ said, they would be powerless until the teacher of all truth comes. Which is God the Spirit. This is the one and only Establishing and you could say, restoring of the true relationship of man with God be a use of Christ. We didn't need another because nations and people have been in true relationship of God through the Spirit, and didn't need sacrifices anymore. God enabled then for us to have a relationship with him without animal sacrifices and the.ple obedience.
The reason Christ the Messiah came, was to reveal the Father and die for the Jew first then the gentile. There is no reason for a restored church, Christ came 2000 years ago so we can receive the promise of the Spirit, and be reconciled back to God through Christ's death and resurrection. It's a new Covenant he made, and if you believe all that about Joseph Smith, why do Latter Day Saints use the book he so called translated?
He was more educated than the LDS Church would lead you to believe. He may not have had a lot of formal education but he was definitely well read given the myriad of literary influences that showed up in the BOM.
One of my favorite moments of my life was after the credits in a movie theater watching ¨The Passion¨. At the end ,we suddenly all started singing Amazing Grace together. We stood up and just looked at each other singing with tears streaming down our faces. We were one in Christ. Lutherans, Catholics, Episcopalians, presbyterinas, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, Presbyterians, whatever. We were believers! Together! Love learning from each other. Whenever we hear another perspective it helps us realize new things and what we love about what we have been shown and found
Love this channel and its content! With regards to Number 5: When Joseph went to the pastor (who had encouraged him to take the James 1:5 invitation and pray for an answer) to share the vision he had, the pastor told him it was all of the devil, that revelations were done away with the Bible, and that he should never share such a thing again. That pastor later would be a leader in the charge of violence and mobocracy in Palmyra that forced the Smiths out of the state. He faced tremendous hostility from other "Christians" as well as people who left the church and even sought his blood. His view, as a product of his time, was exclusionary, and reflected in his statements of religions he interacted with. However, his commitment to freedom of religion was unyielding. He famously stated that he would die for his freedom of religion as quickly as he would the freedom of another person and their religious belief. He was an imperfect man, being humiliated and chastised publicly multiple times while at the same time being driven to do what he felt was right at all costs. Definitely a complex figure known world wide for good or evil.
I enjoy Pastor Jeff’s balanced and fair approach. I am not LDS but I tend to think that the Prophet Joseph Smith had a great spiritual experience as evidenced by the fruit of his life and ministry which has grown to the over 16,000,000 members and growing some 202 years following his spiritual first vision. The testimonies and lives of the LDS people I have met have shown good fruit and a love for Christ.
Many of us Latter Day Saints may appear to be open minded in a lot of cases because there are common factors in our faiths. But over all Latter Day Saint know that the theology of our faith and what is considered mainstream Christianity is very different at the core. Joseph smith had a complete understanding of the theology of the church he restored but trying to explain it to put this understanding into words can sometimes be difficult. I’m sure that why Joseph smith being a man could be very ridged at times but then humble himself and showing love to people because that’s how Christ expects his leaders to act. Jesus was very ridged in many cases very blunt to the point but also loving and merciful. So this attribute of JS is not necessarily out of line.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I love your channel and I appreciate that you are so willing to delve into a religion that you have heard mainly negative things about. One thing I can add that I have come to know and believe about Joseph Smith is that he is a man. Simple as that. I believe that he was our first Prophet in this new dispensation and that he was never perfect, but he did the very best he could with being a human being. On the topic of the first vision and its 9 recounts over the years of his leadership, some details within each recount don't add up but that is just how things go. Think about it: you experience something and you write it down after it happened. Fast forward a few years, we all get older and we tend to leave details out of experiences because that is just how our brains work. No one is perfect; our memories forget over time. In my opinion, you scratch your head at this because our church might make JS out to be this "perfect man" who is a prophet therefore he is unable to make mistakes or forget such experiences as he experienced. I say that is just not the right mindset to look at it- He was a man. Man was sent here to live and learn and occasionally forget details of an event. I share your videos with lots of my friends here at BYU-Idaho so we can discuss and talk about how we too can better inform the world of our same imperfections and strifes, no matter what denomination we are. I appreciate the video and I hope you get to read the Book of Mormon soon. Asking God if it is not a truthful book was the turning point for my own spiritual progression and relationship with my Father in Heaven. Much Love and Prayers!
News that a 15 year-old boy had seen and conversed with heavenly beings must have spread quickly in the community where Joseph lived, and soon in nearby towns. Can you imagine how often and how many people, young and old, must have sought and asked young Joseph about his vision? I am sure he just got tired of recounting his experience over and over again for 3 years to whoever asked, some of them even mocking him in disbelief. Imagine how frustrating that must have been for the boy. If you were in his place, would you narrate the marvelous vision exactly as it happened to everyone who asked? No, not even if you tried. It will be different each time depending on who was asking. Everyone must have told and retold others the version they heard from Joseph, and you know how gossip spreads. The enemies of the church have used and continue to use this phenomenon to discredit the Prophet of the Restoration.
@@ileneashby7529 church is in fault, they don't do what the Lord told to Joseph Smith. We are not living like in Sion because of this: 2 Nephi 26:29-31
@@federicoeco9030 those scriptures are a great example of what the Church has been speaking out against, actually. So many pushing the people to go woke for the praise of mankind. The woke narratives are priestcraft. Writing a book on a topic that you then consecrate the money for as do the brethren is not priestcraft. It is more like utilizing the talents God has given for a greater good.
Thanks for keeping an open mind when investigating and reading about Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I like your openness and clarity pointing out the history of his time period and the positive side that he had his conviction of following Jesus Christ.
You know I'm a Catholic a devout Catholic and I'm really digging your channel here because it's kind of cool to understand the LDS Church just to be more insightful about them because when they come knocking at my door I never answer but I know they're good people.
I am a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I love my Catholic friends who are also striving to take up their cross and follow the Saviour. God bless you, brother.
@@darenferrell mormons do not understand that their nature has been fully corrupted from the time of conception , that they must become children of God, and that they are completely separated from God from birth. this is the gospel of Jesus Christ, they reject . they think they are children of God from natural birth. unless you're born again, you're not a child of God . and there is no inherent good in human beings. do human race has a fallen nature and must receive a new nature from God.
When it comes to Joseph smith drinking alcohol, in d&c it says to abstain from strong drink, most members of the church at the time took that to mean vodka and stronger types of alcohol, but they still drunk softer types. Over time the churches teachings came to be total abstinence, but at first it wasn't.
When you talked about Joseph Smith being harsh to his people at times , it reminded me of the story in Mathew 21. Jesus came in to the temple and saw the people buying and selling. This made him angry and he flipped over the tables and told them that the temple was a house of prayer and they had made it into a den of thieves.
Hi there, to answer your question on the Independence, Missouri temple a failed prophecy. 49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.... 51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God (DC 124:49,51). Thus, when Joseph declared the "temple shall be reared in this generation," he meant this as a directive (compare to the ten commandments: "thou shalt.." and D&C 59:5-13) and thus D&C 84 is not actually a prophecy. In the second and third persons [i.e., when applied to another person], shall implies a promise, command or determination. "You shall receive your wages," "he shall receive his wages," imply that you or he ought to receive them; but usage gives these phrases the force of a promise in the person uttering them. Thus, "shall" indicates a promise or command-and, Latter-day Saint theology (with its strong emphasis on moral agency) always holds that man is free to accept or reject the commandments or promises of God, and that God will often not overrule the free-agent acts of others which might prevent his people from obeying. In such cases, God rewards the faithful for their willingness and efforts to obey, and punishes the guilty accordingly. God is an exalted man God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a human being, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? (Numbers 23:19) Thus, the teaching here is that God is not a fallible mortal who will change his goals or say He will do something and then not do it. There is, by contrast, abundant Biblical evidence of God's physical form upon which man's body was patterned. Eternal Progression We believe we can become "like" him, please note "like...simular to, for an example 1) Eternal Life 2) Perfected body Over time I can become more like my father but I can't replace him. Thanks for your time.
Pastor I love your videos on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There is a member who I believe is one of the most knowledgeable man about the church. His name is Jared Halverson. Very highly educated and runs the religion program at the University of Utah. If you have any questions at all I would definitely get with him, because he could answer things a lot better than most of us. He also has a TH-cam channel called unshaken. I think you two would get along great. Thank you again
Great videos! They seem motivated by love, which is refreshing. My name is Talmage; I am named after James E. Talmage, an apostle in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about 100 years ago. He is mostly known in our church for writing the book "Jesus The Christ." I would be very interested to hear your honest thoughts on that book. Another book/essay he wrote that is much shorter and may lend to great discussions is "The Great Apostasy." Thanks for the time you put into this!
Most of these issues are resolved in Mormon Apologetic Forums. The real question is how did a man with three years of schooling translate 500 pages of unknown Indian history in 75 days or less. He could not have written since his wife who was a school teacher shared certain insights as he translated confirming that he could not spell a sentence (check the first vision first copy) I know Richard Bushman very well and I was going to make a movie on Rough Stone Rolling as an Executive Producer, the only true way to understand Mormonism is to read the fruit of Joseph which is the Book of Mormon. Technically only two churches can be true and claim priesthood authority; the Catholic Church and the Mormon church. No one else claims this authority and all pastors are technically regarded as doing priestcraft.
You should do a book review of “A Case for the Book of Mormon” by Tad Callister! Would give you a great take as to why LDS members believe it to be true.
The best way to determine whether Joseph Smith was a prophet is to sincerely ready the Book of Mormon and pray to know from God if it is true. Joseph claimed to be a prophet of God. He was either a prophet of God or a false prophet not deserving of your respect. It all comes down to that book!
I sincerely read the book of mormon in 2000 after having a mormon friend persist that I would only truly know after reading it. My conclusion was it was false and my testimony bore witness to its contrived nature. I asked God to make it clear if the book of mormon was true. It spent too much time trying to convince me of its truth through all the witnesses (the bible doesnt do this). It also spent too much time trying to fill in seaming holes that the bible doesnt answer specifically (salvation of babies etc)...answering some of the questions you would hope it would. Bottom line, there are too many inconsistencies compared with the Bible, nature of God, nature of grace, etc that Mormons tend to overlook.
Thanks for your honesty. Allot of us members of the LDS church still struggle with the same inconsistencies you mention like the origin of book of Abraham, which I love but am torn by. Keep the videos coming, I am grateful to learn about what you believe. Sometimes as a Mormon I assume all other religions believe in basically the same the same things as us, but there are huge differences, which I appreciate you mentioning. In the end what I'm looking for is having confidence that there is an afterlife, whatever it turns out to look like, and whoever is correct may not matter much anyway...
Just a quick note, Joseph's destroying the printing press was inside the law. It's a common misunderstanding that it wasn't. A start to that explanation would be understanding how US Constitutional rights were federal rights, able to be overridden by state law back at that time.
There are things we believe that are harder to understand if you don’t understand the basics first. I highly recommend reading the Book of Mormon and taking lessons from the missionaries. Thank you for being open minded and respectful.
If we expand the definition of prophet to someone who has the testimony of Jesus and can prophesy when animated by the Spirit from time to time, then, along with Medad and Eldad from the Old Testament, I think Joseph Smith can qualify as a prophet, who perhaps “spoke arrogantly” from time to time. If you look at prophets from this perspective, where they are much more fallible, it really puts the onus on the believer to discern what is actually from God and what is not. I think my favorite revelation from Joseph Smith is “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.” Some people want to be told every last thing to think and do by another “man of God”, but it’s up to us to take the Spirit for our guide and let Jesus guide us by his word, written or spoken by fallible prophets.
I know this is old but I stumbled on it today and appreciate your tone. This may have been responded to already, but on your question of LDS agreement and JS’s certitude. It’s easier to think of it in terms of different aspects of our beliefs and perspectives coming into play. For one, we do believe that there is correct authority in the church to perform certain ordinances (baptism, temple work, etc) and to receive continued revelation via prophets and apostles. BUT we also have theologically expansive orientations that can make us a little more “glass half full” in interactions. I see this most in our view of heaven and hell. We view people more in the light and truth they have and try to expand on that…that that’s the purpose of this life and manifested moreso in the after. All people to us are children of God. They all have goodness and truth. Life can muddy it, but it’s there. So treat them more by their goodness. This does not mean we don’t have more rigid or black/white oriented members. We do. They’re ones more likely to grab on to the messages that are exclusionary and interpret theology in more exclusionary tones. But they’re less likely to engage with a channel like this too. Which may be why it seems more contrasted. Plus the practice of continuing revelation and modern prophets means that JS was the prophet for his time, Nelson for right now. Many of his traits are likely culturally derived from his time and influences on him. There’s not a need or expectation for an infallible prophet in LDS beliefs. Which is probably why when I read Rough Stone Rolling, it led me to have more faith in the restoration it expanded my faith and when I read another couple book via modern biblical scholarship showing the sheer messiness of the Bible and it formation it didn’t cause much conflict or concern. Nothing is perfect in a relationship between God and a bunch of imperfect clay laden humans.
Current Latter-day Saint here. I've really been enjoying this series! I can't say I blame someone for not accepting a prophet who contradicts their worldview. So I'm happy that you were still so even handed in your analysis! When it comes to Joseph Smith and his teachings on God, I sincerely think he found these teachings in the Bible. I think when you look at the earliest parts of Old Testament as it was received by the ancient Israelite people, you will see it didn't actually paint an exclusive eternal God very well. And history is really beginning to back that up. We now know that ancient Israelites were henotheistic/monolatrists, meaning they recognized other Gods, with the understanding that they only worshipped the God of Israel, even monotheistic proof texts like Isaiah were written during a period where strict monotheism hadn't formed. While this understanding isn't the same as the modern Church teaching on God, it paints a picture that things aren't the neat and tidy monotheistic trinitarian God that we are now used to. This is without mentioning the fact that ancient prophets had no way of explaining grand cosmological concepts like the meaning of eternity, what God is in an essential sense, and a modern concept of time. Also when it comes to Joseph's claims about the Church and modern claims. Joseph had a mission to declare the restored Gospel with clarity. it wasn't a time for ecumenism, it was a time to declare that the heavens have opened again and that this is the one true and living Church of Christ. As time has gone on and these claims have solidified, we don't need to proclaim that as strongly in all contexts. We are more certain in our truth claims and no longer really worry about watering down the message.
Guess what, others don't reject JS because he "contradicts their worldview," (Are you suggesting the rest of us are apostates, sinners, etc?) People reject JS because lie after lie after lie after lie has been uncovered, with evidence. No one likes a habitual liar. It has nothing to do with worldview.
Over 4,000 changes made in the book of Mormon since it was first published, also major plagiarism. All it takes is 1 false prophecy to be able to identify a false prophet, Joseph Smith had many. I lived in Salt Lake City Utah for 24 years, the Church makes everything look so colorful but the truth is you cant become a god, you don't get salvation after all you can do, with good works. Lucifer is not Jesus's brother, thats a different Jesus than the Jesus in the bible. Lastly Joseph Smith his father and brother were all Master Masons, involved in freemasonry and Joseph was killed by the freemasons after taking secret proceedings in the masonic lodges and handshakes and adding lots of it to the LDS church. The LDS church is a fraud and the people are judgemental they believe they are floating on a white cloud above everyone else, also don't forget they use to believe black people were cursed for the color of their skin and didnt allow blacks to have the priest hood until the 1970's. What kinda church supposedly led by Jesus Christ would seperate blacks from whites and call it the "true" church. Its a cult and the prophets they currently have and have had are all false prophets, the Bible and what the real Jesus of the bible came to teach us is the real truth. You cant become gods! There is only one God, none before him and none after, Jesus Christ. Also I grew up Catholic, got baptized LDS at 23 and only stayed for 3 months because of how weird everything felt, found the truth about 6 months ago and I can't wait to get baptized in a non denomination Christian church, still learning, not perfect but the truth is in the Bible, not some book that came hundreds of year after and is in clear contradiction of the Bible.
Think of his rigidity like this. Moses struggled with the children of Israel because they kept wanting to return to what they had known in Egypt for hundreds of years so he had to be rigid with them to keep them on track yet he pled to the Lord for them and showed great mercy for them. Even after Christ came the apostles were working constantly to keep the saints from going backwards. They were constantly fighting apostate teachings that people brought in by mistake or intent
I really appreciate your honest thoughts. You have a great approach, and your willingness to keep an open mind and continually seek to understand is really refreshing.
Pastor Jeff - I am impressed as ever by your study. You have been to more historical sites and visitors centers than the majority of Latter-day Saints, considering the global nature of its members, and most likely have read more material from the restored Church (scripture) and other sources outside of what members read or experienced. Considering much of your reading and experiences include material and sources not familiar to members or sought out by them. I appreciate your sensitivity to members and willingness to combat criticism with curiosity. Understanding that your natural immersion into understanding Joseph Smith’s life and works would be from the position of why he was not a prophet. I respect greatly your having read “Rough Stone Rolling.” By doing so ahead of reading the Book of Mormon you have a unique perspective. Indeed Joseph Smith is a fascinating historical figure. What you said of him not being a prophet is a perspective I respect, and expect, given what you have read and experience to date. Having shared your willingness to leave the door open regarding some particular feedback… Regarding his account of stating the Lord called, “all other Christian faiths” “an abomination” seems harsh and confrontational. Contextually it is the expected result of his stance, if the Lord’s purpose was to restore the accuracy of His church and the value of covenants and ordinances which were no longer being practiced. He did not say these churches were evil, or that their members were evil, only that they relied on partial truths and in most cases they drew unto Him with their “lips, but their hearts were far from (Him).” The main idea being that His purposes required introducing these important elements back into the world. Indicating that there must be more to what the Lord wants from us than just confessing Him, which some preached distilling all that Christ said to one passage of scripture stated by an apostle and taking it as superior to so many other teachings Christ gave us in the New Testament to likely satisfy the growth of their own flock. Such a statement is the very premise Joseph claims to be given by the Lord. Speaking of what the Lord requires from His church. Not of His feelings toward all who call upon Him and His love for them. We can expect Joseph to take on the meaning from this as given to him more easily than the idea of him starting out as a 14 year old boy with the idea to differentiate and start his own faith based upon the level of complexities and differences of mainstream Christianity that would come later. So with this stance Joseph was not given an opportunity to be very diplomatic. By taking on the work, he is dropped into a world of doing what the Lord expects of him and he cannot be inclusive. What is fascinating is that hundreds of years later, Christianity as a mainstream body, has to now categorize it and classify it. Kindly it in its own category, and us as members do not believe that all Christian faiths are an abomination. Only that the fullness has been restored. With that comes the advantage of being more inclusive when compared to Joseph Smith. Which is to say there has never been any instructions given from the Lord through Joseph or from Joseph himself to be otherwise. Not entirely certain as to why there were inconsistencies of the First Vision. Keep in mind this is account of telling the story as a claim not an act of prophecy, however. So to call these inconsistencies out as a reason why he is not a prophet is incongruent. Just a personal view here… To me those inconsistencies only enhance the idea that he had multiple visions and interactions and though that first holds distinct significance to the world and we want to know of each detail, he shared what he could remember. With accounts likely melding together in his mind over time. And it differed in the telling as a result. Yes, there are some things we would consider as drastic from certain aspects to the next and from one telling to the other. But to not cite Joseph as a prophet for this reason of inconsistency is to miss that he was not prophesying and to miss that there would be even more criticism of a word for word account if one were to have been given by rote over and over again without deviation. That would likely be the rehearsed result of a made up account. The temple being built in Independence is a good one to cite. Admittedly I do not have an answer. Only that Joseph said, as quoted by the Lord, “Shall be built in this generation.” ‘Shall’ being a command. It did not happen. If you believe that the Lord said it and that the burden was on Joseph to make it happen and he didn’t, it still doesn’t mean that Joseph was not a prophet. It means he wasn’t able to accomplish what the Lord required in that case. And could be the result of many things including persecution and his death. Have to read the King Follet sermon, or have you found this from the sources that use it to refute LDS doctrine? This is controversial because he spoke from a position that is not canonical. Some believe it is the case because we are not ready to hear of such origins or our proximity to God. It’s disregarded for many reasons and sounds like abomination. When considered that a tenant of this restored Gospel is that God is a Father, a loving Father, with a Glorified body, we are His spirit children, and lived with Him but in innocence, the premises start to make more sense. The nature of our mortal bodies and resurrection makes more sense in the context that this is what it means to be like Him and this is part of His glory. If we choose good and eschew evil and are made clean through the Blood of the Lamb then we can not only be like Him but live with Him. Having gone through mortality. All because of Jesus. Considering families as a father and mother and children and relationships being given from God, with Him as the creator and this to be His “image” it makes more reasonable sense. That all things here are a type and a shadow or what Is to come. Rather than the very hard to understand concept of the Trinity or our nature to God, where we are not even His Children unless we believe, and believe in something that has no form or shape until the act of taking on manhood in the form of Christ, with families not being there what they are here, because of our uncleanliness and the original sin, etc. In 1841 Joseph wrote (his own writing): “The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear; till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.” You may consider that your work on TH-cam may be beneficial to you in many forms. By use of this medium you are causing so many to think. In many countries. Please consider that what you still require is to read the Book of Mormon and as you do intently assign to something much larger than what you have. Much deeper and broader than Joseph Smith, the man and/or the prophet. As you do this you will have the perspective that others have. This is the explanation as to why the work has grown and while it will continue.
THANK YOU BRIAN CHRISMON READING YOUR TESTIMONIES WITH TEARSSSSSS ,WE ARE IN THE LAST DISPENSATION WITH THE FULLNESS OF THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL ,REVELATION 14:6-7 , HE SHOULD READ GENESIS 49 THE BLESSINGS OF JOSEPH SON OF JACOP HE WAS NOT SHOT BUT HIS FRUITS JOSEPH SMITH WAS HATED N THEY SHOT AT HIM ( HIS BLOOD) SEALED HIS FAITH FOR HIS VISION OF THE FATHER N HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ,MATTHEW 21:43 I WILL TAKE MY KINGDOM N GIVEN TO A NATION THAT BRINGING FRUITS THEREOF, WHAT FRUITS IS THAT THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT GALATIANS 5 LOVE ,JOY,PEACE...............SELFCONTROL.THANKS FOR YOUR TESTIMONYS N WE BARE WITTNESS THAT HE LIVES HE IS OUR REDEEMER ,AMEN❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤NINE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT,N 9 BLESSINGS MATTHEW 5.❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
One of the things I find so fascinating about Joseph Smith is that the purpose of his calling and mission is so similar to John the Baptist. Around the time of Jesus Christ, the Jewish nation was severely fractured. There had been no prophets since Malachi, 400 years earlier. The Jews subsequently had fallen into a state of general religious apostasy. Numerous sects and divisions had arisen. A rabbinical system became a standard around 70 B.C, with each sect and division having rabbis offering their interpretation of scripture and clamoring for followers. They had the Holy scriptures, knew them well and many even had them memorized, yet still there were significant doctrinal disputes, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and they as a whole they almost entirely missed their own Messiah! Some rabbis were good, honest people, yet none really had proper authority. Then, the Lord sent another prophet, John the Baptist, to prepare the way for Him. This true prophet had God-given authority and revelation, just as the prophets of old. He was sent to prepare the hearts of the people for the long awaited Messiah and turn them back on the proper covenant path. Is Christianity so different in these very last days? Christendom, much like ancient Judaism, is comprised of numerous sects and divisions. There are rabbis (preachers) in every sect and division, each teaching their interpretation of scripture, and many clamor for followers. There are certainly wonderful and dedicated disciples of Christ among the different denominations, but where is the proper order and authority in the Church? Just prior the Lord's second advent, God called and sent a prophet, Joseph Smith, to restore lost doctrines, authority, ordinances and order in preparation for the Lord's return. This is so that God may increase faith in His beloved Son throughout the earth and "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" (Ephesians 1:10). This is the "dispensation of the fulness of times." This is the last time the gospel will be dispensed anew before the end comes. This is the institutional Church of Jesus Christ, restored. "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people" (Revelation 14:6). You see this angel at the top of the temples. This is the angel Moroni, and surely the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ will be preached to every kindred, tongue and nation. None of these things are to diminish what anyone has already received, but to build it up (D&C 1:21). As the dark shades of worldliness and unbelief in Jesus Christ begin to fall throughout the world, it will become harder and more perilous than ever. The Lord has restored these things for our benefit and understanding, that we might be able to draw on His power as we draw ever closer to Him. We will need this to survive spiritually and be able to welcome the Lord when He returns. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He calls and reveals Himself and His will to prophets in our day as well as in times of old. The more I learn about Joseph Smith and what was restored, the more and more I am amazed at how simple, plain and precious the gospel of Jesus Christ is. This has only deepened my relationship with the Savior and has come to mean everything to me and my family. I know it is true the same way I know the Bible is true, by the power of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 16:15-17). God Bless.
Revelation 14:6 “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”
@@chrishumphries7489 Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
@@kevinhullinger8743 Who is Paul (an authorized apostle) talking to? He is talking to members of the church in Galatia. Why is he saying this to them? Because he is fighting the Judaizers and the false teachers claiming some kind of authority and leading people away from the true authorized ministers of the gospel, and therefore the gospel itself. This is the context of the verse. Paul is not speaking to you, me or anyone else. He is not even speaking to another area of the church. He is speaking to the Galatians with their specific problems and their specific circumstances in their specific time period. The gospel has always been taught by authorized prophets and apostles who have true priesthood authority and revelation from Heaven. Think about it. There is no gospel written by the hand of Jesus Himself. It is the testimony of the prophets and apostles that we have in the Bible. Throughout Biblical history there has always been cycles of apostasy and restoration. There have been many dispensations where the gospel is restored and taught anew. Then apostasy occurs and doctrines, authority and proper order is lost. Then another prophet is eventually called….. and so on and so on. This is the Biblical pattern. God even called John the Baptist, a prophet, to prepare the way for Him because the Jewish nation was in a state of general apostasy (for about 400 years). This is the final dispensation (Ephesians chapter 1). This is the last time the gospel will be restored in its clarity, plainness and simplicity and taught anew before the Lord comes in glory to the world.
@@chrishumphries7489 Simply put there was no great apostasy. Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever. Matthew 28:20 “Jesus said” Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Matthew Jesus speaks this parable. The church will continue to grow with bad seeds until the end of time harvest. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’
In regards to the differing versions of the First Vision: Actually, I do not see that they are contradictory at all. The first version states that the Lord parted the heavens and the Lord spoke to Joseph. Remember, Joseph came from an Evangelical background, and was used to Evangelical terms and traditions.. The word "Lord" referred to God, whether the Father, or the Son. Joseph saw two beings. Christ said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. When the "Lord" parted the Heavens, Joseph saw God, the Father. When the "Lord" spoke, it was the Son. We are looking at it incorrectly. It is possible that Joseph also did not fully understand, at first, what knowledge was being imparted.
Just like with Barkley, it takes time to understand and comprehend things after having made direct contact with God, the most powerful source of light because an enormous amount of information was downloaded to Joseph. It cannot be understood overnight and takes time for understanding to deepen. For Joseph only knew about what all the other churches knew about God before God had visited him. And that's why Joseph's understanding of God had evolved over time.
Read the gospel topics essays about multiple accounts of first vision. I believe there atleast 5 that vary in extreme differences. If you can reconcile these congratulations, but most of us being honest with what we see tend to have some issues with not only so many multiple accounts but the fact that the church hid the multiple accounts until releasing these essays in 2013 says alot. The fact that we only heard of ONE vision in the grove. Just like we only heard of one translation of the plates. Until more was revealed in these essays. They are published by the church. Not anti mormon sites.
Hello Jeff! My entire family it’s evangelical and my father and Brother they are a Pastor to! I became a member of the Church of Jesus Christ since I was a teenager and at the time my family in their ignorance made my life miserable! But I could never denied what God answer was about he’s restored gospel, and every time I visit their congregation listen to their preaching all confused in their own beliefs make my testimony grown stronger! Now days the evangelical people trying new approach like you! By the way… before my father passed he ask me to bring he’s name to temple to be baptize! Have you notice it’s to big of a fight?!!
President Benson said it all boils down to whether Joseph Smith Jr really did translate the reformed Egyptian plates into English by the power of God and whether the Book of Mormon is the 2nd witness of Jesus Christ and the word of God....what say ye? 🙂
Thanks for at least trying to look at both sides of the coin. #1- when Joseph was "digging for buried treasures ' he was employed as a day labor for a man by the name of Joshua Stole, who was trying to find a silver strike. 2- back in the frontier times destroying a printing press was not unheard of. Up to that point, across what was at that time in America, over 16 printing presses were destroyed. Could they have handled it better? Yes. Was it worthy of death? Absolutely not. A book that you may find interesting regarding this time is called CARTHAGE CONSPIRACY by Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill. Dillin Oaks was a federal judge who covers the legal aspects and Marvin Hill was a historian/ professor. They draw their information from legal records, notes, and newspapers. A very interesting read. #3- Joseph was asked on several different occasions to write about his experience in the Sacred Grove. Some details, depending on the audience, he may have felt more pertinent then others. These accounts of writings happened over many years, so yes some things may have stood out stronger to than others things. The basic premise has always been the same. #4-As far as the building of the temple in Independence. The land was dedicated for that purpose. Before that could be accomplished the people were driven out of the state ( fyi...up to the 1980's it was LEGAL in the state of Missouri to kill a black or a Mormon ). We still believe a temple will be built there. #5- Before you can even begin to understand the concept of us being literally children of God with the potential to be like our Heavenly Father, you need to have a full understanding of the Plan of Salvation, which covers where we came from, why we are here, and where we're going. Needless to, because we believe God is literally our Heavenly Father that doesn't mean we believe we'll die and poof we're a God. On the contrary. At the same time we don't envision us sitting on a cloud playing a harp for eternity. We will be learning and growing, and this process will take a long time! Learn the Plan of Salvation.
“Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.” Galatians 1:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9.
I honestly love my Evangelical friends even though I have encountered plenty who are demeaning and dismissive. Regarding the "prophecy" that you cited, it actually was not a prophecy perse, but a directive/commandment much like the ten commandments were given ("thou shalt"). This is referenced in D&C 124:51 when the Lord says, "Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God."
Have you been able to start reading the Book of Mormon yet? I applaud your great efforts to learn about our history and doctrine in such a kind and thoughtful way, but I do know that there is only one way to know if Joseph Smith really was a prophet. This is through revelation from heaven. In the end, your primary goal may just be to conduct a kinder version of outreach to the Latter-day Saints than some of your Evangelical counterparts have in the past. I can definitely understand and respect this. But if you are truly seeking to know from God Himself if Joseph Smith was a prophet then prayerfully reading the Book of Mormon with an open heart and intention to act upon revelation received is the only way. All I can say is that through the compelling witness of the Holy Spirit, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. Thank you for your sincerity. I pray for your success on this journey of understanding!
@Tim Walker Thanks for taking the time to comment. I'm actually gearing up to read the BOM and will eventually share the whole experience on the channel. Stay tuned and thanks for watching! God bless. ~ Jeff
@@HelloSaints Jeff, it will be great to hear your thoughts on the BoM. Something that is puzzling, and that even critics cannot give a good explanation for, is regarding how Joseph Smith could have come up with the BoM out of his own mind. The book is deeply complex and he dictated it in 65 days. Huge amounts of different names, different societies, groups merging, a mess of a timelinr, and yet so few internal discrepancies. He had a few scribes. He had his face buried in a hat for most part of the process and he would dictate nonstop. Emma's interview by his son on the BoM translation is amazing. A really good commentary on the literary aspects of the BoM is Grant Hardy's Understanding the Book of Mormon.
Doctrine and Covenants 121: 34-46 specifically verses 43 and 44 might Shed light on Joseph being hard on people then being nice to them. Regarding Joseph Smith's drinking, the Word of Wisdom wasn't exactly a commandment back then. Some would say we have a higher law now, I believe like with Tithing, we have been reduced to a Lower Law because of our weakness. I have read the nine (4 primary and 5 secondary) first vision accounts and don't view them as contradictory, probably even less contradictory than Paul's vision. In fact I find the nine different accounts to be more supportive of his position based on some of the details in some of them. Regarding Joseph's Prophesies, like many prophecies in the old testament many have conditions, when those conditions aren't met the prophecy fails. In some cases certain prophecies in the Old Testament were completed centuries after they were given, I give Joseph this same leeway. Some Old testament Prophecies have be given and fulfilled multiple times in different ways, some symbolic, some literal, I give Joseph this same leeway as well. Regarding the Book of Abraham, at the very least, Facsimile 2 is completely accurate, that may sound strange, but if you know you know, The Book itself was translated from what is known as the long scroll which we do not have, we cannot translate it because it burnt up in a fire, we cannot say the Book of Abraham doesn't match up because we do not have the originals, and that's assuming that translation is even the best description for what happened. Joseph Smith's Exaltation is just another version of Theosis, Divination, Sanctification, Second work of grace (for those who believe in that), or Regeneration. it is completely consistent with most of Christian thought, he just phrased it differently. Also God Being Man is the entire premise of Christianity, at least in the Person of God the Son, I see no issue in this possibly extending to God the Father in some form. Based on everything that I have read, I believe Joseph believed that there is more than one eternity, or more than one existence or reality, now exactly what that means is a bit difficult, but I feel it answers the apparent contradiction, God was always God, and does not change, There is no end or beginning, however in some other eternity the Person of God The Father may have not always been how he is in this eternity, potentially being more like God the Son, whatever that means. We know more about "What God is Man can become" than we do about "As Man is God once Was" and frankly we don't know that much. Joseph Smith's Concept of Theodemocracy, and a plurality of religions existing after the second coming of Christ, show he is not as exclusive as he appears at first. From my readings it seems, he though the plurality of religions was a good thing. However yes Joseph Smith and early members to even to the 1950s (at least) were very adamant that we are different and are not similar to other Christians. If the Church and it's members were treated differently in the early days this probably would've been a bit different.
There are many wonderful researchers, resources, and records that can be consulted about Joseph Smith. With prophets, by their fruits ye shall know them. As you read the Book of Mormon, pray and ask God, with real intent, about its veracity. He is the only one that can clear the clouds of doubt.
An amazing book about Joseph Smith was written by his mother Lucy Mack Smith. It is called "History of Joseph Smith by His Mother." It is such an excellent read. She writes from a perspective of being there through all of these experiences. She is a first hand witness! You also get a feel for Lucy Mack Smith, who was amazing!
The man who wrote 116 pages, a historian who left the church after looking into the history, and then rejoined after continuing to look into it, started back after looking into the different accounts of the first vision. It would be interesting to look into his perspective of the first vision, and in general the perspective of those who leave and come back as I just watched your video on those who leave. I've been looking into them recently
You cannot deny Smith's fruits, many scriptures and a world wide church, miracles, healings, inspiration, revelation of God attributes. His teachings of the afterlife and families and forgiveness,. Smiths teachings and witness of Jesus Christ. and yes the current church has tended to fall away from Smiths teachings
I am glad you mentioned the book of Abraham. Kerry Muhlstein, an Egyptologist and faithful Latterday Saint wrote a short but impactful book called “Let’s Talk About the Book of Abraham.” He discusses the topic in detail. I would be glad to mail you a copy if you are interested. Let me know
Hi, Ex-Mormon here. I have been struggling with the Mormon religion. Mostly because my family is in it, but I figured this was a perfect time to share my studies. First, the Mormon church is in two groups FLDS(fundamentalist) and LDS. Joseph Smith was a fundamentalist and had many wives, some being as young a 14 along with other woman of the church. Yes, he did have sexual relations with his child-wives. When I first learned this it really confused me because most of my life I was taught that Joesph Smith was a good guy and was only trying to teach the truth. Second was how the FLDS and LDS became. While on they’re “adventures” (because polygamy was not excepted back then) they were in Utah. After Joseph Smith was killed is about the time they split up. Anyways thanks for letting me share and I will be following
@Aaran Davis Idk about what Eric said. But here is a point you haven't thought of. Marriages of women that young was extremely common back then. People forget this and then think that a 14 year old with Joseph is completely evil. Plus if you want to understand polygamy, you need to understand marriage for time. And marriage for time and all eternity. Most marriages for time were only to support a desperate woman(usually widows). When it comes to marriage for time and all eternity, the process that is supposed to happen is that they receive witnesses and revelation as to who their eternal partner is. When it comes to having children with a women who is only married for time, that can only happen through witnesses and revelation in which you see that their former husband is willing to let someone else increase their eternal inheritance through having children through their wife. If you want to understand polygamy, you must understand eternal doctrine. @Eric Lawton I think you need to do some more research. Both of you shouldn't forget that Abraham had children with mutliple of his wives; like Sarah and Hagar. So don't act like polygamy is something God is ashamed of, It is something that THIS society is ashamed of. The FLDS have badly messed up God's higher laws. Polygamy being one of the worst ones they have botched. Only God through thus "saith the Lord revelations" can set his higher laws back in order.
And was it God who told Abraham to have a child with Hagar? Or was it Abraham and Sarah who didn’t have enough faith in God that they would have a child of their own? Which they did end up having. And them jumping the gun with Hagar made quite a mess actually if you read the story. People use these example in scriptures to say that God endorsed polygamy. Yes, polygamy happened in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean that God wanted it or commanded it. Actually, almost every example of polygamy in the Bible demonstrates a falling away from God.
@@kevenanderson4952 Excellent point. Or you can see how the fight between Leah and Rachel -- literal sister-wives -- led to Joseph being sold into Egypt. Or how the wives of Solomon led his heart away from the LORD. &c. In each of these, as with Abraham and Hagar, it is important to distinguish when the Bible is being DESCRIPTIVE -- telling us what people did -- and when it is being PRESCRIPTIVE -- telling us what we should do. What Abraham did was DESCRIPTIVE, not PRESCRIPTIVE.
When it comes to Numbers 23:19, I interpret that as it saying that God and Christ are not like man when comparing God's ways to man's ways instead of taking it literally like you said. In the first vision God and Christ appeared as two physical men
You are a good man. love your fair way of portraying what you understand in an honest way. Your open arms approach is the best way to reach the hearts of your viewers. As an LDS believer, we love all who love Christ. He is the stone upon which we must all build. Just a few thoughts on your questions regarding the discourse of Joseph regarding our believe in becoming like God. Many of His revelations came because he believed in the Bible and asked for further instruction on teachings he believed to be true, as he read from the bible continually. Here are a few passages from the Bible that may have caused him to ask for further instruction on this matter: Psalms 82:6, “I have said, ye are gods and all of you are children of the most high.” John 10:34-36, “Jesus answered them. Is it not written in your law? I said, ye are gods.” Romans 8:16 and 17, “And if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” Galatians 4:7, “And if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” Revelations 3:21, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am sat down with my Father in his throne.” And then Revelations 21:7, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” Early Christian Fathers: Saint Irenaeus in second century, “Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods?” Saint Clement of Alexandria, second century, “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods and gods are men.'” Saint Justin Martyr, second century, “In the beginning, men were made like God and that they are deemed thus worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Saint Athanasius in the fourth century, “The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh and henceforth inherit everlasting life. He became man that we might be made divine.” And then Saint Augustine, considered by many the greatest of the Christian Fathers said, “But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God, for he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” These were Orthodox Christian Saints, canonized saints, and three of them lived within a hundred years of the apostles, and all five of them believe in deification. This was a part of historical Christianity until relatively recent times and still is an important doctrine in some of the eastern Orthodox churches. In fact, here’s the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology. “Deification, or Greek theosis, is for Orthodoxy the goal and every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.” And then the famous C.S. Lewis, the famous Christian writer who died in 1963, “Christ came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men, the kind of life he has by what I call good infection. Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God.” And lastly, “He said, in the Bible, that we were gods, and he is going to make good his words if we let Him, for we can prevent him if we choose. He will make the feeblest and filthy of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly, though of course on a smaller scale, His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful, but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said.” IF these passages were enlightening. perhaps there is more insight to other questions regarding Joseph Smith? Sometimes things we don't understand (even many from the bible) require time, patience, and faith to come to a clear understanding.
I can recommend Fawn Brodie's book "No Man Knows My Histrory" . This is a excellent history, written by a generational Mormon family member. A classic.
@@SacaPuuntas I have to confess that I lost a lot of respect for Nibley and F.A.R.M.S. when they started suggesting that the Nephite / Lamanite civilizations might possibly correspond to the Olmec ruins of Central America. That seemed like far too great a leap, and it still does not explain the claims of the BoM from an archaeological viewpoint.
@@vbcsalinasapologetics1242 FARMS pushed Central America a whole lot. I think Nibley just found certain cultural similarities interesting. Many of his writings point toward N. America. Anyhow, I think some LDS scholars tend to gravitate to any possible evidence since overall it had been lacking.
You give credit to Joseph Smith in that “..he was willing to die for these convictions,” whereas Joseph Smith was running, fighting politically, fighting legally, and was with men who were armed with guns. There was a shotout between him, a few men with him and a mob. I don’t see this as him being “willing to die for [his] convictions.” He did not die in humble martyrdom fashion like the first apostles did, Jesus or many church fathers have.
Every time I remember an event and I recount it especially years later I tell that story a little different or I might remember a different detail … That’s what happened to Joseph in his retelling of the First Vision.. and we can learn so much more from it because we have difference versions.. if he had told the exact same thing each time he told it word for word I think then I would be suspicious.. No I have a very strong testimony of Joseph Smith .. was he Flawed .. I think he was a very kind man the more I read about him the more I come to understand
The way in which you are able to approach this with an open and honest non biased curiosity is amazing to me Pastor Jeff! And I’m grateful for it! You have a way with words that allows you to share praise in one sentence and a recognition of differences in the next without contention or degradation. Bravo!
Something I've noticed from this video is that a lot of the things that were questionable about Joseph Smith, are things that actually go a lot deeper. What I mean is that there's even more to the story in a lot of cases. I love how you're learning about the church it's super nice to watch and learn how you see things too.
There were a lot of things questionable about all of God's prophets, as they were all human. King David even committed murder in order to get another man's wife, and he was still referred to as "God's favorite".
You do realize that at that point of the story it is not an endorsement from God. Rather it is God, revealing to us the downfall of a prophet. By their fruits you shall know them. David had turned his back on the mantle of the prophet to embrace the things of the world.
I appreciate your thoughtful, positive, intelligent approach. I am LDS. I have been a member of the Church my entire life. I knew nothing about Joseph Smith's alleged secret lifestyle or drinking binges. I never knew the early members were hostile towards outsiders. I do imagine that they were protective of their religion, lifestyle and families. My own ancestors were among the early pioneers. There are many stories on how often the LDS families were tarred and feathered, (men), attacked and driven out of many cities because they were different. I see this type of anger surging between different races, religion political parties, and countries all over the world. Hitler's campaign was a prime example. Putin's threats are another example. North Korea, Turkey attacking the Kurds.. .Africa, Syria, Afghanistan, etc. In almost every country one group considers themselves superior to others, hate and greed takes over and they are driven to conquer, destroy and drive others into blind submission. The Catholic inquisition was another example which I believe was totally against the teachings of Christ. But it is a pattern throughout history. Lust, power and greed makes people destroy each other and sometimes they say it is "in the name of God". I firmly believe God did not create us to have us destroy each other, that we are all children of God, no matter what race, religion or culture. I have friends that fear Muslims because of bad press about the terrorists. The Muslims are basically peaceful God-fearing people. My children grew up in Europe with Muslim friends. ISIS and the Taliban give the rest of the Muslims a bad name. But it is the terrorists that harm their own people. The terrorists decide they are justified in the name of "Allah". These are not all Muslims. We must learn to look on the hearts and souls of each other. If we are loaded with anger, hate and contention, we are not following the examples of our Savior, Jesus Christ. "Blessed are the peacemakers. Republicans want to destroy Democrats and vice a versa. God does not prefer one political party to another. He wants us to live in peace, lift each other, help each other and find unity wherever we can.
There is so much more between the lines for understanding. I would love you to do a video on the many versions of the first vision and the timeline for each.
Just recently when I was contemplating Joseph smith and the Book of Mormon I prayed for help and guidance.. I was going to pick up my Book of Mormon but then I had a feeling inside to instead pick up the Bible and just open it randomly. It was 1st Corinthians and in it I read, god shall use the foolish to confound the wise.. he does not choose wise and mighty but the weak meek and lowly.. I think many intelligent people and scholars today are still confounded and baffled how young Joseph could have dictated the entire Book of Mormon all by himself… it’s a super human act in my opinion if not the power of god.. but anyways it gave me chills, I love that verse god will confound the wise with the foolish..
You might be interested in listening to lectures from Truman G. Madsen. The first lectures is titled Joseph Smith the Prophet. The second is titled The life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph. You can listen to them on TH-cam.
Just a heads up, I actually know someone writing a whole book on how the sources for Rough Stone Rolling are unreliable (like selectively drawing from very biased sources). Especially important for 3.
Spot on. Great observations for sure. The LDS church was doing everything to be as different as possible from mainstream Christianity and only over the last couple of years (after all the topic essays came out around 2015), they have been attempting very hard to look and sound like other mainstream Christians. For examples:: getting away with using the word Mormon in the church name - even though there was a huge million dollars propaganda a few years back " I am a Mormon", start using these words in their church : "ministering" instead of visiting and home teaching, Grace, Trinity, Congregation, etc. Those words were not typically used back 10 years ago. They still hold very strong position that there are the one and only true church so do not be fooled :))
Joseph Smith was indeed a man of his time and the Christian revival was very much an effort to discover/discern what was right and wrong and I think that made ALL Christian denominations tribal. I am SO happy to see an effort to be less tribal and celebrate our commonality - Jesus Christ.
The Prophet Joseph Smith on Rumors - Evil Speaking - Backbiting "I went one day to the Prophet with a sister. She had a charge to make against one of the brethren for scandal. When her complaint had been heard the Prophet asked her if she was quite sure that what the brother had said of her was utterly untrue. "She was quite sure that it was. "He then told her to think no more about it, for it could not harm her. If untrue it could not live, but the truth will survive. Still she felt that she should have some redress. Then he offered her his method of dealing with such cases for himself. When an enemy had told a scandalous story about him, which had often been done, before he rendered judgment he paused and let his mind run back to the time and place and setting of the story to see if he had not by some unguarded word or act laid the block on which the story was built. If he found that he had done so, he said that in his heart he then forgave his enemy, and felt thankful that he had received warning of a weakness that he had not known he possessed. "Then he said to the sister that he would have her to do the same: search her memory thoroughly and see if she had not herself unconsciously laid the foundation for the scandal that annoyed her. "The sister thought deeply for a few moments and then confessed that she believed she had. "Then the Prophet told her that in her heart she could forgive that brother who had risked his own good name and her friendship to give her this clearer view of herself. "The sister thanked her advisor and went away in peace. - Jesse Crosby. Cited in They Knew the Prophet, Hyrum Andrus, 162-63.
The Lord sometimes chastens us, then shows love, and I guess he says we can too, like parents can, teachers, church leaders….not sure who all. We learn from chastening, and the love following shows us that the one who chastened us is our friend, not our enemy.
Love your content so far! I will be following along. Have you read the series “How Wide the Divide?” By Craig Blomberg and Stephen Robinson, and the follow-on “Bridging the Divide” by Gregory CV Johnson and Robert Millet? They were fantastic and I believe did a really good job laying the framework for discussions between Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals (and the larger Christian community)
I appreciate all of the critical thinking, exploration and of course seeking to avoid deception, as it is certainly out there in abundance; but sometimes the simplest answer tends to be the right one: By their fruits ye shall know them.
As someone who hasn't subscribed to a religion but is so very fascinated by it, I'd love to hear your thoughts on point #3 as it relates to the Bible and how you can overlook some of the Biblical points but it pushes you further from Joseph Smith's ideas! Thanks for this really awesome and respectful discussion. I love how you're learning and growing and not allowing your beliefs to cast something off! I can't wait to hear your thoughts when you read The Book of Mormon.
@@kolobkolobkolobkolob the Quran also speaks about Jesus even more that it does Mohammad. It even goes as far to say that Jesus Is the Word of God and the Christ. So just because it has some things about Jesus and some of those things may be true and in line with the Bible, that doesn't mean that the book was inspired by God. I've always thought it was interesting that the writers of both the Quran and the book of Mormon were given their message from "an angel of light" which is exactly what the devil disguises himself as. Prophets get their messages from God, not by "angels of light".
@@Ihayden First of all, Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon, he merely translated it into English. The prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon did receive their messages from God. If you give the Book of Mormon a chance by reading it, you will find that out. Also, Joseph was called as a prophet by God himself, not an angel. The angel who visited him showed him where to find the Book of Mormon. Angels have been sent to many prophets over the history of the earth to convey messages and bring comfort. Joseph's visitation is in keeping with what we know of prophets. Daniel, Jacob, Elijah, Abraham, even Mary, the mother of Jesus, were all sent messages and comfort by angels. Why don't you keep an open mind like the pastor in the video, instead of putting down other people's religions.
@B. G. I don't believe the book of Mormon is true for many of reasons. Joseph taught that God is one of many infinite gods and that you yourself could become a god one day. But, This is what the Lord says-Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God. Isaiah 44:6 Also becoming as God was the first temptation satan did “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.” Genesis 3:4-5
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr sin is part of the plan. That's why there was a saviour before the foundation of the world. Without the fall none of us would be here
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are as human as everyone else. When talking about weaknesses…..”We are all mortal”, says Elder Uchdorf, then he says “I hope that it does not come as a surprise to any of us.” Ha, ha….everyone laughed. He did too. The leaders of the church can be humorous too. I think that we just try hard to overcome our weaknesses. Sometimes not enough, but we have repentance. We do not like weakness, or sin….we want to be clean and free of any kind of sin. But weakness is not sin. Sin is giving in to weakness. So we repent, and that’s where the added help comes in….which you may understand what I am talking about. Part of it is grace, but there are special helps, the priesthood ordinances, that we have to cleanse and purify, I guess to receive that grace. But we make covenants and try to keep them to stay worthy.
Hope you read up on the situation that led to the creation of the bank in the country at that time. It wasn't just a JS thing. There was a LOT about him to admire. He was either misguided...or the Prophet of God. yes, like anti-slavery. So remember that alcohol wasn't banned from the start. And polygamy...well it is biblical and JS was just as disgusted as anyone else by having to do it. I mean...who wants more than one wife? Wife 1 "Did you take out the trash?" Wife 2 "NO HE DID NOT!!!!" Wife 3 "I told him to paint the fence and he didn't do that either!!!!" No!!! Who wants that? Mistresses? One night flings? If this was his bag...ok...but not other wives. And I encourage you to read Mark Twain's comments on it when he went through SLC. Well the book is called Rough Stone Rolling. The key is whether JS was a prophet. And the key to that is the BofM. If the BofM is true..then all your doubts about JS are answered. It is the fruit from a prophet. So without reading the BofM...you really can't judge just yet. How do you know what lines up if you haven't read the BofM? And remember we do not 1. consider prophets to me infallible...nor scripture. And we do not believe only in the "Quad" as you say but in continuing revelation. But that is assuming that the faith in parts of the OT were the same as in other times. Or that even apostles differed one from another at times. At the JS started...he had to draw that line. Now, we focus on show that we have many common beliefs. I think that book you read's point was that JS was not perfect and like a rock rolling...sharp edges were worn down in a progressive way as they are for all of us.
Non-LDS here from Australia. Here are my short observations. Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844. Most members followed Brigham Young to Utah where they stuck together, prospered, and built a great city. Non-polygamist Mormons stayed behind, fractured into small groups and had little success. Young was a polygamist. Plural marriage was openly practiced in Utah until 1890 when it was made a felony by the US government. The LDS Church in Utah was dissolved and its assets seized by the federal government. The LDS Church was in crisis. The LDS president at the time reacted quickly by declaring, after doing it for 50 years, polygamy was wrong. Six years later, Utah was admitted as a state of the US. The LDS was back in business. Polygamy continued in secret until the early 20th century. Small factions broke away, but mainstream LDS members remained monogamous. The stigma of polygamy continues to dog the LDS Church today. Christians find polygamy and many Mormon beliefs about God and Jesus repulsive.
Thank you for your kind and respectful words. Many people say Joseph Smith was not a prophet because his prophecy about a temple being built in Independence MO did not come true. This stems from Doctrine and Covenants 57. If you read this section you will see that Joseph is not prophesying that there will be a temple built in Independence but rather God is instructing that there should be a temple built there. The Saints worked to obey this instruction but were unsucessful due to their violent expulsion from the state.
Joseph Smith knew he was going to his martyrdom when he went to Carthage jail. He never denied the truthfulness of the golden plates (Book of Mormon) and that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him. He gave his life for these claims. It is either true or false. If the Book of Mormon is true and of God then Jesus Christ restored His Church thru Joseph Smith. If you are really interested in knowing if Joseph Smith was a true prophet you have to read and pray to God about the Book of Mormon. It is really quite simple.
I am impressed about with your level of respect and the fact that you read "Rough Stone Rolling". As a member of the Community of Christ, I would just humbly say just a couple of things. First, your criticism of Joesph Smith Jr. seem to be well thought out. In fact many within the Community of Christ would agree with them I would expect. The remainint saints in Nauvoo who ultimatly joined with LDS member churches that did not go with Brigham Young, had many of your same criticism and many would suggest that some of the church politics (like polygamy, destruction of the Nauvoo Expositer, etc.) did not come from Joseph but from others. Of course in Community of Christ, we encourage and allow individuals to have varing beliefs and opionions about Joesph Smith. Your comment that his revelation about building the Temple in Independence has been fuflilled since the Community of Christ built one. When your a church that asserts modern day revelation, I would suggest that opens the door for the church to continue to evolve some or at least for God to further specify his commandments through an open cannon. Again, many of your coments and conerns have been explored within the Community of Christ which still remains the 2nd largest group, after the Brighamits, to evolve out of Nauvoo after Joesph Smith's murder. Even Emma Smith, took issue with many of reforms Brigham Young put in place or Brigham Young claimed Joesph Smith put in place. (Emma Smith and Brigham Young didn't get along very well to say the least). Your videos are awsome! Thank you.
Most LDS church members have not read Rough Stone Rolling. I have even had church members allege Bushman is "anti-mormon" since they have never heard of him. It is not that surprising a reaction since most LDS church members are ignorant of their history. What I like about Richard Bushman's book is he portrays a human side to Joseph Smith, flaws and all. Many apologists are not critical enough of Joseph Smith's legacy. There is a tendency to place Smith on a pedestal equal to that of Jesus Christ. That is a mistake. Even prophets of God have flaws.
@Scott Brandon I especially appreciate it rough stone rolling because I knew there would be a bias but Bushman was also very honest which I very much respected. Currently reading Turner’s book on Brigham Young. Fascinating.
Turner did a very good job on Brigham Young’s biography. He spoke at my LDS church history class at BYU just prior to his book coming out. It was refreshing to have a visiting non-LDS scholar speak to us and share his sincerity about studying Mormonism
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I appreciate your kindness and respect for our faith and beliefs. I just would like to briefly clarify that the King Follet Discourse is not considered scriptural and for that reason it is not taught or mentioned during our Sunday School or Sacrament meetings. It is as it says, a discourse. The belief that God was initially a man like us is not a doctrine and it is not found in our scriptures, meaning the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Convenance and Pearl of Great Prize. It is however mentioned of eternal progression and that we can become more like Him. Immortality and Eternal life are accepted doctrines in our beliefs. If you have any questions regarding LDS doctrines feel free to contact me. I will gladly respond to any questions.
“For a man to lay down his all-his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ-requires more than mere belief or supposition that he is doing the will of God. It requires actual knowledge, realizing that when these sufferings are ended, he will enter into eternal rest and be a partaker of the glory of God.”
Some points to keep in mind. First, the Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment until decades later, it was more like a guideline. Second, the reason why there are different versions of the first visions is because the telling of the story differs depending on the time and context. When you tell a story about what happened a year ago, it will probably be slightly different 10 years later. Thirdly, I had a discussion with someone, and the prophecy of the Temple in Missouri came up. In return, I asked about Christ's statement in Matthew 24:34 about the second coming happening before that generation passed. If Joseph Smith isn't a prophet because of that, neither is Christ. HOWEVER, looking at the Greek text, the root word for generation, 'genea', is used. When you then look at the definitions of 'genea', one of them is 'lineage' or 'kin' (Martin Luther translates it like that). So Christ is saying that this lineage or kin won't pass until the second coming. Same thing could be said about Joseph Smith's prophecy, assuming that it came from the Lord, it would make sense that the meaning is the same as in Matthew. ESPECIALLY, if you take near eastern literary culture into account, of one line of scripture echoing the next (parallelism). Or certain verses calling back, or being echoes to earlier scripture. Christ calling back to his own prophecy, to also remind the members that they are in the latter days, the days of the restitution of all things. EDIT: Some might argue, "Why didn't Joseph Smith use the word kin, or lineage then?" My answer to that would be that church members were most familiar with the KJV, and so the prophecy would spoken, so they would understand what was being referenced. Just some food for thought😅
Respectfully, Friend: In Matt. 24:34, Jesus is answering a compound question, asked in vv.1-3: 1As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings. 2“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus did not stop and say, "You're talking about two different things, so there are two answers." He instead talks about both things in one answer. With respect to the destruction of the temple, in which not one stone was left standing upon another, that occurred in 70 AD. You can read about it in Flavius Josephus' _The Jewish Wars._ Some of Jesus' followers would have been living, a mere forty years later. Also, regarding the Word of Wisdom being a mere guideline ... is that something you're likely to discuss over a cup of coffee? ;^)
Former atheist here. You are a very respectful, genuine Christian and give Christianity a good name. My biggest issue overcoming my conversion to Jesus was the negative subconscious perceptions I had of Christianity. When I discovered this, only then did I develop my own personal testimony of the Savior.
I just can't stand the state of much of Christianity right now. Hypocrites and casting stones at each other, instead of simply learning about each other. It's ok to not have the same beliefs, no need to cast hell on others because of it.
Ultimately as a new Christian as long as we know that 1. Jesus is the Christ and 2. EMBODY Charity aka Jesus (serve, love strangers, love our enemies etc...) then things will work out in the end for Christians, no matter which of the 200+ denominations in the US you believe. The thing is every denomination firmly believes they hold the correct doctrines, which leaves many of us on the losing end of truth just off the odds alone. I'm not saying to NOT have your own believes on baptism, the bible, interpretation etc..I'm just saying to remember that we are one in hundreds of different mingled interpretations. Someone has to be wrong...in fact, most of us HAS to be wrong off statistics alone. (I know, it's a tough pill to swallow)
ANYWAYS haha no more tangent. I love Jesus, and I appreciate your open and NONBIASED review on Mormonism. People hate on them so much, meanwhile I see Mormons out serving and helping others, embodying charity. I love that about them. Keep up the good work brother.
Lovely comment. Thank you!
Joseph Smith was also bothered with the religious contention, as you explained. Read this part of his history here to see just how similar your described experience is to his (especially verse 9-10):
“5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, “Lo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.
6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued-priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.
7 I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father’s family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely, my mother, Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia.
8 During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong.
9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?”
To read more and his answer for how to “know it”, please read the rest of Joseph Smith History 1:10-26 found on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints website
@@lizclaridge1335 He does not understand.God is an exalted man but God is from everlasting to everlasting because hes an eternal self-existing intelligence. there were men sitting up on thrones in God's Presence that John saw. Kings who had already won their crowns of Eternal Life that Paul was talking about that the righteous saints were promised to receive crowns in heaven. Those saints had already received their crowns from God being joint heirs now with Christ and with God. They are no longer Saints anymore but are now Lords and Kings unto God....
So I can't understand why he thinks the purpose of being a saint is just to be saved, no eternal life is much more than that. its about inheriting crowns.
@mission ion We all are broken and flawed. Besides the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I don’t know of any other group or organization, that, collectively, better represents the embodiment of Christian practices and values - Its practicing members strive to live morally clean lives, abstain from drugs and alcohol, abide the law, have a great work ethic, help others, etc. Have you by chance studied the teachings of the Church? Attended its services?
Reflecting and pondering other people's beliefs is not a hateful thing. It is actually love because God put us here to love each other and help each other get to heaven. God IS pure love.
No matter how many Christian denominations there are, the common bond is that ALL Christians believe in Jesus as God. I do not know how many non Catholic Christians there are in the world but there are 1.2 billion Catholics, so my guess is that there are at least double that for other Christians. That being said, makes at least 1/4 of the world population to be Christian.
My biggest issue with Mormonism is that members do not believe that Jesus is God. That is problematic because only God can forgive sins and if Mormons believe that Jesus is their savior, and they do not believe that He is God, then how did Jesus save us?
My other issue is that if God was once a man who came to perfection, then we as humans are right next to God and He is no one special because we can all do what He does. Even an atheist would not find that logical. Who created the first man then, who was the first God, and so on? Can you explain that because it makes no sense to me. I would like to understand Mormon thinking but I cannot if no one is willing to explain the rudimentary beliefs.
Peace be with you!
I wish every Christian pastor would be as respectful of other's beliefs as this man.
I wish LdS leaders would also give that same respect to non-LdS Christians instead of claiming they are just doing “pretend church” (Brad Wilcox).
Of course you wish that. You’re a mormon.
I wish he was more blunt with historical facts about Joseph Smith. He was imprisoned for ordering the printing to be burned down but that’s not why he was murdered. He was was murdered for what he was trying to cover up by burning the printing press. He was murdered for his countless affairs(so called polygamy) with young teenagers and married women. Moreover, he was doing so by promising them and their families salvation if they slept with him. He didn’t deserve murder but the people were reasonable mad for what he did. Probably deserved life in prison and castration for rape.
@@samjessup920 th-cam.com/video/IoD5g53z5qc/w-d-xo.html
I dont see what you mean
Here he is making friends with the pope. And hes been friends with him ever since!
@@Inzpectre th-cam.com/video/zqB8UmnNcqk/w-d-xo.html
Joseph Smith once said that he didn't blame anyone for not believing his story, because if he hadn't lived it himself, he wouldn't have believed it either. The point is that there are people who have extraordinary gifts that the rest of us don't understand.
Except that Joseph smith was lying and none of what he said actually happens
Donna, it’s very hard to have faith in the doctrines and testaments of a man who has been shown unequivocally to have fabricated, contradicted, and misrepresented so much of what he proclaimed to be inerrant, inspired truth.
@@paulcampbell7518 hi hi hi no no
Notso
Notso
Jeff, as a free thinking Latter Day Saint, a former LDS bishop and regional leader, I love your channel. I am also a former Presbyterian youth minister and this type of dialogue is so important in helping mend a wounded, divided society. Keep up the good work, Brother!
Bishop, I have an important message that I don't know how to thoroughly spread, I know the church already teaches this, but I believe it's going to become more important to change the direction of it.
I know the church talks a lot about food storage and the importance of it, the problem I see is people may have food storage, but they may not be ready for the events that are about to unfold given food shortages on the way.
I want to organize in every Church regardless their affiliation of the importance of having a garden, having chickens and animals, you know that quote in the bible teach a man to fish.
Well anyway, I want to introduce an idea into all the churches to donate a portion of that land that they own that the church happens to be on, and make it an important thing that the community of that church happens to tend, and these trying times food is becoming more and more expensive and we keep hearing about the shortages and we keep seeing the evidence of a lot of these manufacturing plants being destroyed or burned down or Farmers being issued to destroy their crop or burn down their crop and in some cases some of them have been salted by the government, we've heard about this all around the world at this point.
I think it's me coming ever more prevalent that everyone needs a gardener, if they have a house and they have land, they should have a garden with some animals that produce, if they don't have land on the other hand say they live in a apartment building, then I believe the church should have a plot of land set up possibly right next to the church or in the parking lot I don't care, there should be a community sanctioned garden for all the members, food has become much more scarce and it will become more scarce as time goes on with all these little things happening right and left, I don't care about your political situation your politics whatever they may be, I care about preventing the loss of life, because with such a important issue as this, I believe something like this may actually save us from at least the food shortages, but I believe it also will bring people together and unite people.
I know you're thinking how are we supposed to organize such a thing, the thing is if we don't at least try, we will likely run into a situation where we won't be able to do anything about it because we'll act a little too late and trying it.
You tell me what happens when the food storage happens, I will tell you, typically what happens when a food shortage happens, is people go crazy they will steal and they will kill for resources because they are desperate and they are in need for those provisions.
I want to prevent that, and the only way I can think of within my limited capacity of thinking, is to convince everyone who has a church again I don't care whether they're LDS or not, if they have a community and they have a church, they can do this one simple task for all churches scattered around the world really, and they could prevent this type of situation from taking place.
Not to mention that the people that are desperate that don't belong to the church will probably want to join the church in order to get access to those provisions, at least that's my theory, there might be some bad actors here and there, but I've been taught all my life since the beginning when I was a kid that there's going to become a Time where are faith will be tested and we're going to have to help people in dire circumstances in order to help ourselves.
And that job might be a heck of a whole lot easier if we set up provisions ahead of time in order to prevent that type of scenario from becoming so dire that there's riots killings and all kinds of crazy stuff going on.
I want all churches to be prepared for this type of scenario, I live in a valley of LDS people, and I believe people can be convinced to do this given the circumstances that are unfolding before our eyes.
I hope you see my message.
@@5226-p1e I love your idea! We need more thinkers like you!
In March 1826, 21-year-old Joseph Smith was convicted of being a disorderly person and an imposter. Smith admitted at a trial in Bainbridge, NY to be defrauding people by claiming to be a glass looker and using magic seer stones to find hidden treasure or lost property. About 18 months later, he Founded Mormonism by finding magical gold tablets that could only be read with magical seer stones.
Love this! Still LDS, Still have a testimony, Still know Joseph is a prophet and YOU are a good person. Your arguments are articulate and well thought out. I love how well you listen, contemplate and even seek guidance in your quest for knowledge and understanding.
I’m not LDS. Why do LDS people keep using the term “testimony”. I don’t recall other Christians using that term. It feels like LDS use “testimony” as a foundational component of their faith.
@@Zeett09 After pondering your question today I decided to cheat and go right to the gospel library to copy and paste this answer.
"A testimony is a spiritual witness given by the Holy Ghost. The foundation of a testimony is the knowledge that Heavenly Father lives and loves His children; that Jesus Christ lives, that He is the Son of God, and that He carried out the infinite Atonement; that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God who was called to restore the gospel; that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Savior’s true Church on the earth; and that the Church is led by a living prophet today. With this foundation, a testimony grows to include all principles of the gospel.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have the sacred opportunity and responsibility to obtain their own testimonies. Having obtained a testimony, each member has a duty to nurture it throughout life. Happiness in this life and throughout eternity depends largely on whether individuals are “valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:79; see also Doctrine and Covenants 76:51, 74, 101). Testimony grows through the application of the following principles:
The quest for a testimony begins with a righteous, sincere desire. Speaking to a group of people who did not yet have testimonies of the gospel, Alma taught: “If ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words” (Alma 32:27).
Testimony comes through the quiet influence of the Holy Ghost. The results of a testimony can be miraculous and life changing, but the gift of testimony usually comes as a quiet assurance, without spectacular displays of God’s power. Even Alma, who had been visited by an angel and had seen God sitting on His throne, needed to fast and pray so he could receive a testimony through the power of the Holy Ghost (see Alma 5:45-46; 36:8, 22).
Testimony grows gradually through experiences. No one receives a complete testimony all at once. It grows as individuals show willingness to serve in the Church and to study, pray, and learn. It increases as individuals obey God’s commandments. Testimony grows as it is shared.
Part of a testimony’s development comes when it is shared. In the Church testimony is shared often in fast and testimony meetings, in Church classes, and in conversations with family members and friends."
@@Zeett09in the LDS church, we are encouraged to learn for ourselves and build our own belief and faith in Christ. Testimony is a just a statement of personal belief, and we draw upon our personal experiences to share the gospel.
@@gunsole64 ok thanks I understand this term better. I don’t recall that term being used much in my past Catholic faith.
FALSE PROPHET
This series is a breath of fresh air. Most of what we get "out there" is "Mormon Church is the way" or "Mormon Church is BAD", with not much in between. Thank you for your honest opinions about a religion not your own. :)
With every religion and situation there are a million shades of Gray, the best thing to do in this situation is to investigate from the source material instead of getting information second-handedly through alleged people.
this is why the church says they're okay with investigators, they're open to it even, just as this pastor in these videos is investigating it, he's truly investigating it without necessarily taking knowledge or information from people that say bad things, he's doing his own research by going to the source material.
One way to approach Joseph Smith would be to analyze him as you would Peter, James, or John. For example, do you read the writings of Peter looking for contradictions to the rest of the bible or do you do the hard work of reconciling what may appear (at first) to be conflicting teachings? Members of the Church do the same with the Book of Mormon and the other teachings of modern Prophets.
For example, the book of James focuses heavily on the relationship between works and salvation. If an atheist approached you and claimed that James was not inspired because his writings "contradict" Paul's writings about grace, you would help the person understand that the scriptures must be taken as a whole - that if you are cherry-picking scriptures from the book of James Ex: "Faith without works is dead" and contrasting that with other scripture, you would be really missing the mark. It's completely the same with the Book of Mormon or other teachings of the Church.
Imagine if I told you that I believed in a prophet that denied Christ three times and cut off the ear of a government official (aka Peter). You'd probably think I had been deceived. But a closer look would reveal that every prophet and apostle has wrestled with their own "dark angels" or temptations (as we all do). There may be many ways to discover if someone is a prophet, but I think the best is to ask God himself. Thank you for the engagement and sincere investigation! As fellow believers, I think we need to band together for similar causes to combat the great evil throughout the world.
I’ll bet if we had letters or journal entries from Jeremiah, Isaiah, or Moses’s neighbors we would be shocked what they would write down, and surprised at how many times they would misquote the prophet. Even eye witnesses have a 35% percentage of error in a court of law. The prophets are called of God, but remain human and are capable of opinion and error. Also, just because a prophecy isn’t fulfilled during the lifetime of a prophet it doesn’t mean it won’t be fulfilled in due time. Thanks for the review!
Pretty nailed your comment.
Great point. Over time a man (or woman), if their story is preserved at all, is either venerated to a point of near perfection or degraded to a point of pure evil. Neither extreme is likely correct. So the fact that Joseph’s history is so recent (Biblically speaking), his complete perfection or pure evil haven’t fully been distilled in the annals of history. Instead, he is a complex character. And God works through complex characters.
Isaiah had prophecies not yet fulfilled in his lifetime and that doesn't mean he failed as a prophet..... Speaking of Millenial era....
You don't know your Bible. You are lazy and have the nerve to dispense opinion left and right..... Pathetic
That was my thought. Prophecies of Isaiah, and even of the Savior himself took much more time than what was anticipated by many for many many generations.
I’m a member of the LDS Church. I get you having your own beliefs and disagreements. I respect you as a person and a child of God. Your video is critical but I can see your respectfulness and your honesty in truth-seeking, and I thank you for that. It is a unique trait these days. I will be subscribing. You should speak to the Midnight Mormons crew. They’re good dudes and very open to speaking to and learning from people of different faiths. You guys would totally get along.
I love midnight Mormons. I was rlds and am debating on going LDS . The main reason of wanting to go is watching the boys on midnight Mormons. I agree so much with them and they really have made me ponder. I know the church I swear better than some members I have met. When I do talk to missionaries they ask if I was LDS already because I know all the gospel topics and a lot of your history. Plus one half of my family grew up LDS . So who knows . Anyways I just want to say I enjoyed your comment.
@@Crustapher that’s awesome! God bless you on your journey.
Not sure how this “video is critical.” Would you mind elaborating?
@@Crustapher Just happened to see this comment and hope maybe you'll see my reply. My family grew up RLDS and my grandfather in particular was a large participant, he even funded the building of the church in our area. Later, when RLDS teachings started to stray from what they believed the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith taught, they began to revisit with LDS missionaries and eventually because of their faith, both of my grandparents received remarkable revelation that their efforts in the RLDS church were not in vain and that the LDS church was truly Christ's church. Here are two things that might help you that my family's unique background caused us to come to an understanding of: 1. The priesthood WAS present in the RLDS church. How the priesthood works is that any worthy male holder can pass it onto any other worthy male. I and my family know that the priesthood was in our homes and was preserved through the RLDS church. 2. I assume that Brigham Young and polygamy are a stumbling block towards your acceptance of the church. While the church is very reluctant to admit that prophets make mistakes, my family is completely in the belief that polygamy was started by Brigham Young, not Joseph, and that it was a mistake that was not ordained of God. That being said, Brigham Young was sustained by the twelve apostles as the prophet, and he held all the priesthood keys of the church, making the LDS church the only church on earth to hold ALL of the priesthood keys. Brigham Young was certainly a flawed man, but his efforts led the pioneers across the country and built the church up. God chose him because he was the best choice, although there were prices that the church has paid from it. I hope this comment finds you and helps you along your journey as I can testify that the LDS church is the one true church of God, despite the fact that my family came from the RLDS initially.
@@prezp00nage24 That is interesting that you would admit that and I appreciate it that you did. My family has acted as if no modern prophet can do any wrong and yet Joseph Smith then Brigham Young did some pretty big errors or mistakes. If the LDS Church would own up to it, many who left probably would have stayed.
RLDS is a different story and in many ways is more willing to harmonize with evangelicals. They accept the historical problems with the Book of Mormon by saying that it is inspired pious fiction and not hitting a rock wall by saying that it is the most "correct" book but hitting reality against their teeth. It is why the Community of Christ is gaining traction again.
The LDS Church needs to accept it and then answer to it, or more will leave.
Thanks for another thoughtful, reasoned commentary. I read Richard's book a few years ago, and am grateful you found it. My mother joined this church when I was 7 or 8, having sought a church she felt was right for her since her youth, and I was baptized during my 8th year, and have been an active member until now, having been blessed to live to the age of 72 and still counting. ) During my early 20s, having experienced goodness during my associations with church members and experiences, including testimonies about the inspired words of our four canonized books of scripture, I desired a deeper witness that Joseph Smith Jr. was, indeed, a prophet. I prayed sincerely and as thoroughly as I knew how, and left the matter with God. Several weeks later, He graciously provided the answer, including the typical test-fire, so I know that he was and remains a true prophet of God. I encourage you to continue this very worthwhile quest, seeking, as I hope and believe you do, for the personal knowledge which only our Heavenly Father can, and loves to provide, for each of us. Success with each of your righteous desires!
When I read rough stone rolling I came out of it realizing that in that day and age they were a lot of problems that we don’t understand today. They had a lot of trails And that we couldn’t even fathom. I came out of it thinking what a wonderful man and prophet he was to endure all that he did and still make sure that the Book of Mormon was printed and at the church continued on. Joseph Smith admitted that he was not perfect.. And always ask for forgiveness. In the end what matters is if you believe in the Book of Mormon. Which I do wholeheartedly. When I read the book I had a confirmation that Joseph Smith did translate the words from the ancient records and that it was another testament of Jesus of Christ.The spirit speaks to everybody differently and he may just not get the same answers as others do .. And it’s not just about reading it’s about asking God to let you know the truth if you sincerely desire
At around 5:00 the discussion is about lifestyle and drinking alcohol, and how Joseph’s habits were contradictory to what he preached. It should be known that Joseph also chewed tobacco. Anyway, it wasn’t until he received revelation on the Word of Wisdom that he ceased such lifestyle practices (not referring to polygamy-that’s a different topic). This new revelation came about from his wife, Emma being discouraged cleaning up the floors after church meetings, where the men had been spitting out their tobacco. Upon her lament, he inquired of the Lord and received the revelation of the Word of Wisdom, which advocates for healthy living and instructs against substance abuse and the like.
We ought to consider that, technically, Joseph was just as any new convert into the church-he was learning new principles line upon line, and so his behaviors and habits changed as he progressed. It’s not like he conjured up the LDS religion, all wrapped up in a tidy package, with all its doctrines and precepts ready to share with the world all at once. He had to learn just as any new convert, line upon line, precept upon precept, …except that he was learning from divine resources rather than mere mortals, lol!
Here’s a really good discussion about Joseph Smith and polygamy with an expert:
th-cam.com/video/eITMOB2pNYI/w-d-xo.html
Why ask them to built a temple that they ended up not building? For the same reason that Moses ended up breaking the law that God just gave him, the people was not ready and disobedient.
It's not like God didn't know that the people of Moses was sinning, he knew exactly what they were gonna do, but gave the first tablet of law anyway, just to show He always has something better for us, and that we will give it when we are ready.
That's how I see it.
;)
Yes!! And he gives us others too!! Like in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Word of Wisdom!! No coffee, tea, alcohol or tobacco….and since then, we of course all learned no illegal drugs. He adds to eat fruits and vegetables (in season), and wholesome herbs, and I am sure that includes legumes, nuts and seeds. Then all grains are for the use of man, meat sparingly, and it is pleasing unto the Lord if meat not eaten except in times of cold or famine. He recommends which grains for which kinds of animals…such as corn for the ox, I think rye for the fowls, oats for the horse, but wheat for man (but now we need to be aware that some have gluten intolerance) but all grains for our use. And he does say that tobacco is for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill. And also that strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your body. And he recommends a barley drink when you are sick. I have never tried that. Maybe just from barley cooked in water. I can’t remember anything else. I thought it curious that he did not mention eggs and dairy, because for most people, they are acceptable foods. And not to eat too much sugar. Or fried foods. Did they process oil back then? He did know we would be educated in the last days about those, as well as about illegal drugs. Maybe he just wanted us to eat mostly the Word of Wisdom foods, and of course, stay away from the harmful stuff. He promises health in the digestive system and body (in other words) and marrow to the bones. And that you may run and not be weary, and walk and not faint. And he promises that the destroying angel shall pass by you, and not slay you. And that you will find treasures of knowledge….even hidden treasures. I can’t remember the rest, but I think that is all.
They didn't get to build the temple because a mob came and chased them out. So they had to leave without building one. Also, Joseph Smith taught (and Mormons believe) that independence Missouri is where the garden of Eden was, and where the saints will gather in the second coming of Christ. I know, it's wierd, because when you think of it, the highly concentrated Mormons are in Utah and Idaho. 🤷♀️
@@kaylaly7811 We believe Smith taught that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, but there is nothing in writing to confirm this. There are people, including Brigham Young, who stated Joseph said this, but it cannot be found in any writings. However, yes, it is widely accepted that the garden was in Missouri, or at least on the North American continent.
@@katherinem.4414 I want to laugh, because I sense sarcasm in your writing, because there are no commas. But just in case you are not being sarcastic, I'm not trying to make fun of you, but if you are being sarcastic, I think you're hilarious! Because as a former member who just left a year ago, I know facts that Joseph Smith and other early prophets did not even follow their own rules. Anyway, good day.
@@kaylaly7811 Please be more specific. Also, how is the claim that Joseph had mortal flaws an argument against his status as a prophet? Did he not strive to live right?
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!!!
ow man that hymn goesss sooo HARD!! Lol
“Ascended to Heaven"?
That sounds Idolatrous
@@KnuttyEntertainment I know Jesus Ascended.
I know that men walked with God and God took them to be with Him.
Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
I am not aware of anyone ASCENDING to Heaven but Jesus.
Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psalms 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
@@bdplist Elijah. Literally got picked up/
@@bdplist it's a metaphorical verse, not literally ascended, he did die and his sprit ascended
I've watched several of your videos. As an LDS member, I really appreciate your open mind.
I had an experience about 10 years ago when I started reading the Book of Mormon Another Testament of Jesus Christ with my little boys. We started at the very beginning. The introduction is long for kids but so fun to imagine Joseph Smith’s story with them. When I said my prayers that night I felt an undeniable witness that what we had started reading was good and true. For a time I wondered why I couldn’t have had that experience with the Savior. It was just so powerful. I later realized I had! The Spirit and Joseph were both pointing me to Jesus Christ. A Prophet does not stand between you and our Savior, he stands with you and points the way to Him. My understanding of that experience has changed and I have found different words to describe it over the years but the experience itself has never changed. I can relate to Joseph’s different accounts of the first vision. I’m grateful for Joseph and Emma’s continual sacrifices to do the work of the Lord and especially for the restoration of a Prophet and revelation for our day. It is good to see that revelation is a process even for a Prophet!
And how do you explain to your children that Emma was disgusted and furious when she discovered her husband having sex with a teenager in his barn one day, or the 40+ wives he had, some of whom were mother/daughter, etc?
And did you know that JS smoked, drank alcohol and coffee and tea? Read his diaries.
Joseph did not follow Jesus' teachings, otherwise he would still believe in the church that Jesus Himself established. Revelation is only true if it agrees with what God has already given us.
Peace!
@Erin Praying with a sincere heart is always the way to know the truth. ❤ it’s not popular to testify, thank you for sharing yours
@@ShawnGordon It is only vitriol if it is not true. If you can prove to me that Joseph Smith's behavior outside of what he preached is not true, I relent.
If not, then he is no better than the pharisees whom Jesus rebuked. They were stringent on the law but did not set an example.
Peace!
@@ShawnGordon My mission is to help bring all to Christ. I do not need you to prove anything to myself. I already know the truth. But can you prove what you believe to yourself? Not twisted information, it is all there, you only have to read.
My heart is peaceful and content with our Lord. But it does pain me to see people following a false prophet and false gospel.
Peace be with you!
@@LetTheTruthBeTold8324 hi! Yes, even in the Bible, we’re encouraged to pray for wisdom.
God doesn’t want us to simply trust the Bible is true because men say it is. We need to READ it, study it, apply the principles… which includes praying about what’s contained therein. Seek to know by the Spirit. The Holy Ghost testifies of what is true.
“Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.”
“5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.”
Life long faithful Latter Day Saint here. Early church history has some pretty messed up stuff. Joseph Smith was an uneducated, young adult, trying to put a worldwide restored church together with a little bit of revelation here and there, being influenced by culture, by other men older and wiser than him... sounds tough. Good thing I'm not converted to Joseph Smith, but Jesus Christ. The restoration has been going on for nearly 200 years now. We're learning more all the time, still receiving revelation and doctrine. God has imperfect, mortal men to work with. However, it is his work and I believe it to be true.
Actually, the restoration happened at Pentecost, when the promise of the Holy Spirit filled the disciples in what is known as the upper room. Christ said, they would be powerless until the teacher of all truth comes. Which is God the Spirit. This is the one and only Establishing and you could say, restoring of the true relationship of man with God be a use of Christ. We didn't need another because nations and people have been in true relationship of God through the Spirit, and didn't need sacrifices anymore. God enabled then for us to have a relationship with him without animal sacrifices and the.ple obedience.
@@mikebuckley46 Very true and some!
The reason Christ the Messiah came, was to reveal the Father and die for the Jew first then the gentile. There is no reason for a restored church, Christ came 2000 years ago so we can receive the promise of the Spirit, and be reconciled back to God through Christ's death and resurrection. It's a new Covenant he made, and if you believe all that about Joseph Smith, why do Latter Day Saints use the book he so called translated?
@@ronniehenwood8580 because the book teaches of Christ and his doctrine. Because the spirit witnesses to us of it's truthfulness.
He was more educated than the LDS Church would lead you to believe. He may not have had a lot of formal education but he was definitely well read given the myriad of literary influences that showed up in the BOM.
One of my favorite moments of my life was after the credits in a movie theater watching ¨The Passion¨. At the end ,we suddenly all started singing Amazing Grace together. We stood up and just looked at each other singing with tears streaming down our faces. We were one in Christ. Lutherans, Catholics, Episcopalians, presbyterinas, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, Presbyterians, whatever. We were believers! Together! Love learning from each other. Whenever we hear another perspective it helps us realize new things and what we love about what we have been shown and found
Love this channel and its content! With regards to Number 5: When Joseph went to the pastor (who had encouraged him to take the James 1:5 invitation and pray for an answer) to share the vision he had, the pastor told him it was all of the devil, that revelations were done away with the Bible, and that he should never share such a thing again. That pastor later would be a leader in the charge of violence and mobocracy in Palmyra that forced the Smiths out of the state. He faced tremendous hostility from other "Christians" as well as people who left the church and even sought his blood. His view, as a product of his time, was exclusionary, and reflected in his statements of religions he interacted with. However, his commitment to freedom of religion was unyielding. He famously stated that he would die for his freedom of religion as quickly as he would the freedom of another person and their religious belief. He was an imperfect man, being humiliated and chastised publicly multiple times while at the same time being driven to do what he felt was right at all costs. Definitely a complex figure known world wide for good or evil.
Love everything you’re doing! A true kingdom builder! God speed!
Dude you are exceptionally well spoken and articulate
I enjoy Pastor Jeff’s balanced and fair approach. I am not LDS but I tend to think that the Prophet Joseph Smith had a great spiritual experience as evidenced by the fruit of his life and ministry which has grown to the over 16,000,000 members and growing some 202 years following his spiritual first vision. The testimonies and lives of the LDS people I have met have shown good fruit and a love for Christ.
Many of us Latter Day Saints may appear to be open minded in a lot of cases because there are common factors in our faiths. But over all Latter Day Saint know that the theology of our faith and what is considered mainstream Christianity is very different at the core. Joseph smith had a complete understanding of the theology of the church he restored but trying to explain it to put this understanding into words can sometimes be difficult. I’m sure that why Joseph smith being a man could be very ridged at times but then humble himself and showing love to people because that’s how Christ expects his leaders to act. Jesus was very ridged in many cases very blunt to the point but also loving and merciful. So this attribute of JS is not necessarily out of line.
Well done, Jeff, thank you once again for your candid, well-balanced assessments! Loving your channel!
Appreciate the genuine nature of your research and the honesty of your videos. It’s refreshing.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I love your channel and I appreciate that you are so willing to delve into a religion that you have heard mainly negative things about. One thing I can add that I have come to know and believe about Joseph Smith is that he is a man. Simple as that. I believe that he was our first Prophet in this new dispensation and that he was never perfect, but he did the very best he could with being a human being. On the topic of the first vision and its 9 recounts over the years of his leadership, some details within each recount don't add up but that is just how things go. Think about it: you experience something and you write it down after it happened. Fast forward a few years, we all get older and we tend to leave details out of experiences because that is just how our brains work. No one is perfect; our memories forget over time. In my opinion, you scratch your head at this because our church might make JS out to be this "perfect man" who is a prophet therefore he is unable to make mistakes or forget such experiences as he experienced. I say that is just not the right mindset to look at it- He was a man. Man was sent here to live and learn and occasionally forget details of an event.
I share your videos with lots of my friends here at BYU-Idaho so we can discuss and talk about how we too can better inform the world of our same imperfections and strifes, no matter what denomination we are. I appreciate the video and I hope you get to read the Book of Mormon soon. Asking God if it is not a truthful book was the turning point for my own spiritual progression and relationship with my Father in Heaven. Much Love and Prayers!
I'm happy yo know that prophets like Nephi and Moroni saw the real situation of the Church now: 2 Nephi 26: 29-31, and Mormón chapter 8.
News that a 15 year-old boy had seen and conversed with heavenly beings must have spread quickly in the community where Joseph lived, and soon in nearby towns. Can you imagine how often and how many people, young and old, must have sought and asked young Joseph about his vision? I am sure he just got tired of recounting his experience over and over again for 3 years to whoever asked, some of them even mocking him in disbelief. Imagine how frustrating that must have been for the boy.
If you were in his place, would you narrate the marvelous vision exactly as it happened to everyone who asked? No, not even if you tried. It will be different each time depending on who was asking. Everyone must have told and retold others the version they heard from Joseph, and you know how gossip spreads.
The enemies of the church have used and continue to use this phenomenon to discredit the Prophet of the Restoration.
The Church has a great podcast on this the topic of the different versions of the first vision, it's about six episodes, as I recall.
@@ileneashby7529 church is in fault, they don't do what the Lord told to Joseph Smith. We are not living like in Sion because of this: 2 Nephi 26:29-31
@@federicoeco9030 those scriptures are a great example of what the Church has been speaking out against, actually. So many pushing the people to go woke for the praise of mankind. The woke narratives are priestcraft. Writing a book on a topic that you then consecrate the money for as do the brethren is not priestcraft. It is more like utilizing the talents God has given for a greater good.
Thanks for keeping an open mind when investigating and reading about Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I like your openness and clarity pointing out the history of his time period and the positive side that he had his conviction of following Jesus Christ.
You know I'm a Catholic a devout Catholic and I'm really digging your channel here because it's kind of cool to understand the LDS Church just to be more insightful about them because when they come knocking at my door I never answer but I know they're good people.
I am a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I love my Catholic friends who are also striving to take up their cross and follow the Saviour. God bless you, brother.
@@LetTheTruthBeTold8324 I think Richard means "well intentioned" as opposed to being akin to Jesus.
@@darenferrell
mormons do not understand that their nature has been fully corrupted from the time of conception , that they must become children of God, and that they are completely separated from God from birth.
this is the gospel of Jesus Christ, they reject .
they think they are children of God from natural birth.
unless you're born again, you're not a child of God .
and there is no inherent good in human beings.
do human race has a fallen nature and must receive a new nature from God.
When it comes to Joseph smith drinking alcohol, in d&c it says to abstain from strong drink, most members of the church at the time took that to mean vodka and stronger types of alcohol, but they still drunk softer types. Over time the churches teachings came to be total abstinence, but at first it wasn't.
When you talked about Joseph Smith being harsh to his people at times , it reminded me of the story in Mathew 21. Jesus came in to the temple and saw the people buying and selling. This made him angry and he flipped over the tables and told them that the temple was a house of prayer and they had made it into a den of thieves.
Hi there, to answer your question on the Independence, Missouri temple a failed prophecy.
49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings....
51 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God (DC 124:49,51).
Thus, when Joseph declared the "temple shall be reared in this generation," he meant this as a directive (compare to the ten commandments: "thou shalt.." and D&C 59:5-13) and thus D&C 84 is not actually a prophecy.
In the second and third persons [i.e., when applied to another person], shall implies a promise, command or determination. "You shall receive your wages," "he shall receive his wages," imply that you or he ought to receive them; but usage gives these phrases the force of a promise in the person uttering them.
Thus, "shall" indicates a promise or command-and, Latter-day Saint theology (with its strong emphasis on moral agency) always holds that man is free to accept or reject the commandments or promises of God, and that God will often not overrule the free-agent acts of others which might prevent his people from obeying. In such cases, God rewards the faithful for their willingness and efforts to obey, and punishes the guilty accordingly.
God is an exalted man
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a human being, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? (Numbers 23:19)
Thus, the teaching here is that God is not a fallible mortal who will change his goals or say He will do something and then not do it. There is, by contrast, abundant Biblical evidence of God's physical form upon which man's body was patterned.
Eternal Progression
We believe we can become "like" him, please note "like...simular to, for an example
1) Eternal Life
2) Perfected body
Over time I can become more like my father but I can't replace him.
Thanks for your time.
Pastor I love your videos on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. There is a member who I believe is one of the most knowledgeable man about the church. His name is Jared Halverson. Very highly educated and runs the religion program at the University of Utah. If you have any questions at all I would definitely get with him, because he could answer things a lot better than most of us. He also has a TH-cam channel called unshaken. I think you two would get along great.
Thank you again
Great videos! They seem motivated by love, which is refreshing. My name is Talmage; I am named after James E. Talmage, an apostle in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about 100 years ago. He is mostly known in our church for writing the book "Jesus The Christ." I would be very interested to hear your honest thoughts on that book. Another book/essay he wrote that is much shorter and may lend to great discussions is "The Great Apostasy." Thanks for the time you put into this!
Most of these issues are resolved in Mormon Apologetic Forums.
The real question is how did a man with three years of schooling translate 500 pages of unknown Indian history in 75 days or less.
He could not have written since his wife who was a school teacher shared certain insights as he translated confirming that he could not spell a sentence (check the first vision first copy)
I know Richard Bushman very well and I was going to make a movie on Rough Stone Rolling as an Executive Producer, the only true way to understand Mormonism is to read the fruit of Joseph which is the Book of Mormon.
Technically only two churches can be true and claim priesthood authority; the Catholic Church and the Mormon church. No one else claims this authority and all pastors are technically regarded as doing priestcraft.
You should do a book review of “A Case for the Book of Mormon” by Tad Callister! Would give you a great take as to why LDS members believe it to be true.
The best way to determine whether Joseph Smith was a prophet is to sincerely ready the Book of Mormon and pray to know from God if it is true. Joseph claimed to be a prophet of God. He was either a prophet of God or a false prophet not deserving of your respect. It all comes down to that book!
Joseph Smith made it very clear that the Book of Mormon was fiction. Just read I Nephi 1.
I sincerely read the book of mormon in 2000 after having a mormon friend persist that I would only truly know after reading it. My conclusion was it was false and my testimony bore witness to its contrived nature. I asked God to make it clear if the book of mormon was true. It spent too much time trying to convince me of its truth through all the witnesses (the bible doesnt do this). It also spent too much time trying to fill in seaming holes that the bible doesnt answer specifically (salvation of babies etc)...answering some of the questions you would hope it would. Bottom line, there are too many inconsistencies compared with the Bible, nature of God, nature of grace, etc that Mormons tend to overlook.
@@alcarmad Very true. Christ never required anyone to believe that the Book of Mormon was true.
Thanks for your honesty. Allot of us members of the LDS church still struggle with the same inconsistencies you mention like the origin of book of Abraham, which I love but am torn by. Keep the videos coming, I am grateful to learn about what you believe. Sometimes as a Mormon I assume all other religions believe in basically the same the same things as us, but there are huge differences, which I appreciate you mentioning. In the end what I'm looking for is having confidence that there is an afterlife, whatever it turns out to look like, and whoever is correct may not matter much anyway...
Just a quick note, Joseph's destroying the printing press was inside the law. It's a common misunderstanding that it wasn't. A start to that explanation would be understanding how US Constitutional rights were federal rights, able to be overridden by state law back at that time.
There are things we believe that are harder to understand if you don’t understand the basics first. I highly recommend reading the Book of Mormon and taking lessons from the missionaries. Thank you for being open minded and respectful.
I really appreciate and respect your approach to all these sensitive topics
If we expand the definition of prophet to someone who has the testimony of Jesus and can prophesy when animated by the Spirit from time to time, then, along with Medad and Eldad from the Old Testament, I think Joseph Smith can qualify as a prophet, who perhaps “spoke arrogantly” from time to time.
If you look at prophets from this perspective, where they are much more fallible, it really puts the onus on the believer to discern what is actually from God and what is not. I think my favorite revelation from Joseph Smith is “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.”
Some people want to be told every last thing to think and do by another “man of God”, but it’s up to us to take the Spirit for our guide and let Jesus guide us by his word, written or spoken by fallible prophets.
and this is precisely why so many Christians today only follow the Bible as their source of God’s truth.
I know this is old but I stumbled on it today and appreciate your tone. This may have been responded to already, but on your question of LDS agreement and JS’s certitude. It’s easier to think of it in terms of different aspects of our beliefs and perspectives coming into play. For one, we do believe that there is correct authority in the church to perform certain ordinances (baptism, temple work, etc) and to receive continued revelation via prophets and apostles. BUT we also have theologically expansive orientations that can make us a little more “glass half full” in interactions. I see this most in our view of heaven and hell. We view people more in the light and truth they have and try to expand on that…that that’s the purpose of this life and manifested moreso in the after. All people to us are children of God. They all have goodness and truth. Life can muddy it, but it’s there. So treat them more by their goodness.
This does not mean we don’t have more rigid or black/white oriented members. We do. They’re ones more likely to grab on to the messages that are exclusionary and interpret theology in more exclusionary tones. But they’re less likely to engage with a channel like this too. Which may be why it seems more contrasted. Plus the practice of continuing revelation and modern prophets means that JS was the prophet for his time, Nelson for right now. Many of his traits are likely culturally derived from his time and influences on him. There’s not a need or expectation for an infallible prophet in LDS beliefs. Which is probably why when I read Rough Stone Rolling, it led me to have more faith in the restoration it expanded my faith and when I read another couple book via modern biblical scholarship showing the sheer messiness of the Bible and it formation it didn’t cause much conflict or concern. Nothing is perfect in a relationship between God and a bunch of imperfect clay laden humans.
Current Latter-day Saint here. I've really been enjoying this series! I can't say I blame someone for not accepting a prophet who contradicts their worldview. So I'm happy that you were still so even handed in your analysis!
When it comes to Joseph Smith and his teachings on God, I sincerely think he found these teachings in the Bible. I think when you look at the earliest parts of Old Testament as it was received by the ancient Israelite people, you will see it didn't actually paint an exclusive eternal God very well. And history is really beginning to back that up. We now know that ancient Israelites were henotheistic/monolatrists, meaning they recognized other Gods, with the understanding that they only worshipped the God of Israel, even monotheistic proof texts like Isaiah were written during a period where strict monotheism hadn't formed. While this understanding isn't the same as the modern Church teaching on God, it paints a picture that things aren't the neat and tidy monotheistic trinitarian God that we are now used to. This is without mentioning the fact that ancient prophets had no way of explaining grand cosmological concepts like the meaning of eternity, what God is in an essential sense, and a modern concept of time.
Also when it comes to Joseph's claims about the Church and modern claims. Joseph had a mission to declare the restored Gospel with clarity. it wasn't a time for ecumenism, it was a time to declare that the heavens have opened again and that this is the one true and living Church of Christ. As time has gone on and these claims have solidified, we don't need to proclaim that as strongly in all contexts. We are more certain in our truth claims and no longer really worry about watering down the message.
Guess what, others don't reject JS because he "contradicts their worldview," (Are you suggesting the rest of us are apostates, sinners, etc?) People reject JS because lie after lie after lie after lie has been uncovered, with evidence. No one likes a habitual liar. It has nothing to do with worldview.
@@alananat6628 Example, please.
Over 4,000 changes made in the book of Mormon since it was first published, also major plagiarism. All it takes is 1 false prophecy to be able to identify a false prophet, Joseph Smith had many. I lived in Salt Lake City Utah for 24 years, the Church makes everything look so colorful but the truth is you cant become a god, you don't get salvation after all you can do, with good works. Lucifer is not Jesus's brother, thats a different Jesus than the Jesus in the bible. Lastly Joseph Smith his father and brother were all Master Masons, involved in freemasonry and Joseph was killed by the freemasons after taking secret proceedings in the masonic lodges and handshakes and adding lots of it to the LDS church. The LDS church is a fraud and the people are judgemental they believe they are floating on a white cloud above everyone else, also don't forget they use to believe black people were cursed for the color of their skin and didnt allow blacks to have the priest hood until the 1970's. What kinda church supposedly led by Jesus Christ would seperate blacks from whites and call it the "true" church. Its a cult and the prophets they currently have and have had are all false prophets, the Bible and what the real Jesus of the bible came to teach us is the real truth. You cant become gods! There is only one God, none before him and none after, Jesus Christ. Also I grew up Catholic, got baptized LDS at 23 and only stayed for 3 months because of how weird everything felt, found the truth about 6 months ago and I can't wait to get baptized in a non denomination Christian church, still learning, not perfect but the truth is in the Bible, not some book that came hundreds of year after and is in clear contradiction of the Bible.
Think of his rigidity like this. Moses struggled with the children of Israel because they kept wanting to return to what they had known in Egypt for hundreds of years so he had to be rigid with them to keep them on track yet he pled to the Lord for them and showed great mercy for them. Even after Christ came the apostles were working constantly to keep the saints from going backwards. They were constantly fighting apostate teachings that people brought in by mistake or intent
I really appreciate your honest thoughts. You have a great approach, and your willingness to keep an open mind and continually seek to understand is really refreshing.
Pastor Jeff - I am impressed as ever by your study. You have been to more historical sites and visitors centers than the majority of Latter-day Saints, considering the global nature of its members, and most likely have read more material from the restored Church (scripture) and other sources outside of what members read or experienced. Considering much of your reading and experiences include material and sources not familiar to members or sought out by them.
I appreciate your sensitivity to members and willingness to combat criticism with curiosity. Understanding that your natural immersion into understanding Joseph Smith’s life and works would be from the position of why he was not a prophet.
I respect greatly your having read “Rough Stone Rolling.” By doing so ahead of reading the Book of Mormon you have a unique perspective.
Indeed Joseph Smith is a fascinating historical figure. What you said of him not being a prophet is a perspective I respect, and expect, given what you have read and experience to date.
Having shared your willingness to leave the door open regarding some particular feedback…
Regarding his account of stating the Lord called, “all other Christian faiths” “an abomination” seems harsh and confrontational. Contextually it is the expected result of his stance, if the Lord’s purpose was to restore the accuracy of His church and the value of covenants and ordinances which were no longer being practiced. He did not say these churches were evil, or that their members were evil, only that they relied on partial truths and in most cases they drew unto Him with their “lips, but their hearts were far from (Him).” The main idea being that His purposes required introducing these important elements back into the world. Indicating that there must be more to what the Lord wants from us than just confessing Him, which some preached distilling all that Christ said to one passage of scripture stated by an apostle and taking it as superior to so many other teachings Christ gave us in the New Testament to likely satisfy the growth of their own flock. Such a statement is the very premise Joseph claims to be given by the Lord. Speaking of what the Lord requires from His church. Not of His feelings toward all who call upon Him and His love for them. We can expect Joseph to take on the meaning from this as given to him more easily than the idea of him starting out as a 14 year old boy with the idea to differentiate and start his own faith based upon the level of complexities and differences of mainstream Christianity that would come later.
So with this stance Joseph was not given an opportunity to be very diplomatic. By taking on the work, he is dropped into a world of doing what the Lord expects of him and he cannot be inclusive. What is fascinating is that hundreds of years later, Christianity as a mainstream body, has to now categorize it and classify it. Kindly it in its own category, and us as members do not believe that all Christian faiths are an abomination. Only that the fullness has been restored. With that comes the advantage of being more inclusive when compared to Joseph Smith. Which is to say there has never been any instructions given from the Lord through Joseph or from Joseph himself to be otherwise.
Not entirely certain as to why there were inconsistencies of the First Vision. Keep in mind this is account of telling the story as a claim not an act of prophecy, however. So to call these inconsistencies out as a reason why he is not a prophet is incongruent. Just a personal view here… To me those inconsistencies only enhance the idea that he had multiple visions and interactions and though that first holds distinct significance to the world and we want to know of each detail, he shared what he could remember. With accounts likely melding together in his mind over time. And it differed in the telling as a result. Yes, there are some things we would consider as drastic from certain aspects to the next and from one telling to the other. But to not cite Joseph as a prophet for this reason of inconsistency is to miss that he was not prophesying and to miss that there would be even more criticism of a word for word account if one were to have been given by rote over and over again without deviation. That would likely be the rehearsed result of a made up account.
The temple being built in Independence is a good one to cite. Admittedly I do not have an answer. Only that Joseph said, as quoted by the Lord, “Shall be built in this generation.” ‘Shall’ being a command. It did not happen. If you believe that the Lord said it and that the burden was on Joseph to make it happen and he didn’t, it still doesn’t mean that Joseph was not a prophet. It means he wasn’t able to accomplish what the Lord required in that case. And could be the result of many things including persecution and his death.
Have to read the King Follet sermon, or have you found this from the sources that use it to refute LDS doctrine? This is controversial because he spoke from a position that is not canonical. Some believe it is the case because we are not ready to hear of such origins or our proximity to God. It’s disregarded for many reasons and sounds like abomination. When considered that a tenant of this restored Gospel is that God is a Father, a loving Father, with a Glorified body, we are His spirit children, and lived with Him but in innocence, the premises start to make more sense. The nature of our mortal bodies and resurrection makes more sense in the context that this is what it means to be like Him and this is part of His glory. If we choose good and eschew evil and are made clean through the Blood of the Lamb then we can not only be like Him but live with Him. Having gone through mortality. All because of Jesus. Considering families as a father and mother and children and relationships being given from God, with Him as the creator and this to be His “image” it makes more reasonable sense. That all things here are a type and a shadow or what Is to come. Rather than the very hard to understand concept of the Trinity or our nature to God, where we are not even His Children unless we believe, and believe in something that has no form or shape until the act of taking on manhood in the form of Christ, with families not being there what they are here, because of our uncleanliness and the original sin, etc.
In 1841 Joseph wrote (his own writing):
“The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear; till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”
You may consider that your work on TH-cam may be beneficial to you in many forms. By use of this medium you are causing so many to think. In many countries. Please consider that what you still require is to read the Book of Mormon and as you do intently assign to something much larger than what you have. Much deeper and broader than Joseph Smith, the man and/or the prophet. As you do this you will have the perspective that others have. This is the explanation as to why the work has grown and while it will continue.
THANK YOU BRIAN CHRISMON READING YOUR TESTIMONIES WITH TEARSSSSSS ,WE ARE IN THE LAST DISPENSATION WITH THE FULLNESS OF THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL ,REVELATION 14:6-7 ,
HE SHOULD READ GENESIS 49 THE BLESSINGS OF JOSEPH SON OF JACOP HE WAS NOT SHOT BUT HIS FRUITS JOSEPH SMITH WAS HATED N THEY SHOT AT HIM ( HIS BLOOD) SEALED HIS FAITH FOR HIS VISION OF THE FATHER N HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ,MATTHEW 21:43 I WILL TAKE MY KINGDOM N GIVEN TO A NATION THAT BRINGING FRUITS THEREOF,
WHAT FRUITS IS THAT THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT GALATIANS 5 LOVE ,JOY,PEACE...............SELFCONTROL.THANKS FOR YOUR TESTIMONYS N WE BARE WITTNESS THAT HE LIVES HE IS OUR REDEEMER ,AMEN❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤NINE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT,N 9 BLESSINGS MATTHEW 5.❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
One of the things I find so fascinating about Joseph Smith is that the purpose of his calling and mission is so similar to John the Baptist. Around the time of Jesus Christ, the Jewish nation was severely fractured. There had been no prophets since Malachi, 400 years earlier. The Jews subsequently had fallen into a state of general religious apostasy. Numerous sects and divisions had arisen. A rabbinical system became a standard around 70 B.C, with each sect and division having rabbis offering their interpretation of scripture and clamoring for followers. They had the Holy scriptures, knew them well and many even had them memorized, yet still there were significant doctrinal disputes, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and they as a whole they almost entirely missed their own Messiah! Some rabbis were good, honest people, yet none really had proper authority. Then, the Lord sent another prophet, John the Baptist, to prepare the way for Him. This true prophet had God-given authority and revelation, just as the prophets of old. He was sent to prepare the hearts of the people for the long awaited Messiah and turn them back on the proper covenant path.
Is Christianity so different in these very last days? Christendom, much like ancient Judaism, is comprised of numerous sects and divisions. There are rabbis (preachers) in every sect and division, each teaching their interpretation of scripture, and many clamor for followers. There are certainly wonderful and dedicated disciples of Christ among the different denominations, but where is the proper order and authority in the Church? Just prior the Lord's second advent, God called and sent a prophet, Joseph Smith, to restore lost doctrines, authority, ordinances and order in preparation for the Lord's return. This is so that God may increase faith in His beloved Son throughout the earth and "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" (Ephesians 1:10).
This is the "dispensation of the fulness of times." This is the last time the gospel will be dispensed anew before the end comes. This is the institutional Church of Jesus Christ, restored. "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people" (Revelation 14:6). You see this angel at the top of the temples. This is the angel Moroni, and surely the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ will be preached to every kindred, tongue and nation. None of these things are to diminish what anyone has already received, but to build it up (D&C 1:21). As the dark shades of worldliness and unbelief in Jesus Christ begin to fall throughout the world, it will become harder and more perilous than ever. The Lord has restored these things for our benefit and understanding, that we might be able to draw on His power as we draw ever closer to Him. We will need this to survive spiritually and be able to welcome the Lord when He returns.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He calls and reveals Himself and His will to prophets in our day as well as in times of old. The more I learn about Joseph Smith and what was restored, the more and more I am amazed at how simple, plain and precious the gospel of Jesus Christ is. This has only deepened my relationship with the Savior and has come to mean everything to me and my family. I know it is true the same way I know the Bible is true, by the power of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 16:15-17).
God Bless.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Revelation 14:6 “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”
@@chrishumphries7489 Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
@@kevinhullinger8743 Who is Paul (an authorized apostle) talking to? He is talking to members of the church in Galatia. Why is he saying this to them? Because he is fighting the Judaizers and the false teachers claiming some kind of authority and leading people away from the true authorized ministers of the gospel, and therefore the gospel itself. This is the context of the verse. Paul is not speaking to you, me or anyone else. He is not even speaking to another area of the church. He is speaking to the Galatians with their specific problems and their specific circumstances in their specific time period.
The gospel has always been taught by authorized prophets and apostles who have true priesthood authority and revelation from Heaven. Think about it. There is no gospel written by the hand of Jesus Himself. It is the testimony of the prophets and apostles that we have in the Bible.
Throughout Biblical history there has always been cycles of apostasy and restoration. There have been many dispensations where the gospel is restored and taught anew. Then apostasy occurs and doctrines, authority and proper order is lost. Then another prophet is eventually called….. and so on and so on.
This is the Biblical pattern. God even called John the Baptist, a prophet, to prepare the way for Him because the Jewish nation was in a state of general apostasy (for about 400 years).
This is the final dispensation (Ephesians chapter 1). This is the last time the gospel will be restored in its clarity, plainness and simplicity and taught anew before the Lord comes in glory to the world.
@@chrishumphries7489 Simply put there was no great apostasy.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.
Matthew 28:20 “Jesus said”
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.
Matthew Jesus speaks this parable. The church will continue to grow with bad seeds until the end of time harvest.
26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’
On 11 April 1844, the council voted to receive Joseph Smith as “our Prophet, Priest & King.”
In regards to the differing versions of the First Vision: Actually, I do not see that they are contradictory at all. The first version states that the Lord parted the heavens and the Lord spoke to Joseph. Remember, Joseph came from an Evangelical background, and was used to Evangelical terms and traditions.. The word "Lord" referred to God, whether the Father, or the Son. Joseph saw two beings. Christ said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. When the "Lord" parted the Heavens, Joseph saw God, the Father. When the "Lord" spoke, it was the Son. We are looking at it incorrectly. It is possible that Joseph also did not fully understand, at first, what knowledge was being imparted.
Just like with Barkley, it takes time to understand and comprehend things after having made direct contact with God, the most powerful source of light because an enormous amount of information was downloaded to Joseph. It cannot be understood overnight and takes time for understanding to deepen. For Joseph only knew about what all the other churches knew about God before God had visited him. And that's why Joseph's understanding of God had evolved over time.
Read the gospel topics essays about multiple accounts of first vision. I believe there atleast 5 that vary in extreme differences. If you can reconcile these congratulations, but most of us being honest with what we see tend to have some issues with not only so many multiple accounts but the fact that the church hid the multiple accounts until releasing these essays in 2013 says alot. The fact that we only heard of ONE vision in the grove. Just like we only heard of one translation of the plates. Until more was revealed in these essays. They are published by the church. Not anti mormon sites.
Hello Jeff!
My entire family it’s evangelical and my father and Brother they are a Pastor to! I became a member of the Church of Jesus Christ since I was a teenager and at the time my family in their ignorance made my life miserable! But I could never denied what God answer was about he’s restored gospel, and every time I visit their congregation listen to their preaching all confused in their own beliefs make my testimony grown stronger!
Now days the evangelical people trying new approach like you!
By the way… before my father passed he ask me to bring he’s name to temple to be baptize!
Have you notice it’s to big of a fight?!!
President Benson said it all boils down to whether Joseph Smith Jr really did translate the reformed Egyptian plates into English by the power of God and whether the Book of Mormon is the 2nd witness of Jesus Christ and the word of God....what say ye? 🙂
Thanks for at least trying to look at both sides of the coin. #1- when Joseph was "digging for buried treasures ' he was employed as a day labor for a man by the name of Joshua Stole, who was trying to find a silver strike.
2- back in the frontier times destroying a printing press was not unheard of. Up to that point, across what was at that time in America, over 16 printing presses were destroyed. Could they have handled it better? Yes. Was it worthy of death? Absolutely not. A book that you may find interesting regarding this time is called CARTHAGE CONSPIRACY by Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill. Dillin Oaks was a federal judge who covers the legal aspects and Marvin Hill was a historian/ professor. They draw their information from legal records, notes, and newspapers. A very interesting read.
#3- Joseph was asked on several different occasions to write about his experience in the Sacred Grove. Some details, depending on the audience, he may have felt more pertinent then others. These accounts of writings happened over many years, so yes some things may have stood out stronger to than others things. The basic premise has always been the same.
#4-As far as the building of the temple in Independence. The land was dedicated for that purpose. Before that could be accomplished the people were driven out of the state ( fyi...up to the 1980's it was LEGAL in the state of Missouri to kill a black or a Mormon ). We still believe a temple will be built there.
#5- Before you can even begin to understand the concept of us being literally children of God with the potential to be like our Heavenly Father, you need to have a full understanding of the Plan of Salvation, which covers where we came from, why we are here, and where we're going. Needless to, because we believe God is literally our Heavenly Father that doesn't mean we believe we'll die and poof we're a God. On the contrary. At the same time we don't envision us sitting on a cloud playing a harp for eternity. We will be learning and growing, and this process will take a long time! Learn the Plan of Salvation.
“Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.” Galatians 1:8-9
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9.
I honestly love my Evangelical friends even though I have encountered plenty who are demeaning and dismissive. Regarding the "prophecy" that you cited, it actually was not a prophecy perse, but a directive/commandment much like the ten commandments were given ("thou shalt"). This is referenced in D&C 124:51 when the Lord says, "Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God."
Have you been able to start reading the Book of Mormon yet?
I applaud your great efforts to learn about our history and doctrine in such a kind and thoughtful way, but I do know that there is only one way to know if Joseph Smith really was a prophet. This is through revelation from heaven. In the end, your primary goal may just be to conduct a kinder version of outreach to the Latter-day Saints than some of your Evangelical counterparts have in the past. I can definitely understand and respect this. But if you are truly seeking to know from God Himself if Joseph Smith was a prophet then prayerfully reading the Book of Mormon with an open heart and intention to act upon revelation received is the only way.
All I can say is that through the compelling witness of the Holy Spirit, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. Thank you for your sincerity. I pray for your success on this journey of understanding!
@Tim Walker Thanks for taking the time to comment. I'm actually gearing up to read the BOM and will eventually share the whole experience on the channel. Stay tuned and thanks for watching! God bless. ~ Jeff
@@HelloSaints go from Argentina to Canada and ask the natives about the White God that was with their ancestors.
@@HelloSaints I ask that you read prayerfully and not through any religion’s lens, just what God wants you to understand from it.
@@HelloSaints Jeff, it will be great to hear your thoughts on the BoM. Something that is puzzling, and that even critics cannot give a good explanation for, is regarding how Joseph Smith could have come up with the BoM out of his own mind. The book is deeply complex and he dictated it in 65 days. Huge amounts of different names, different societies, groups merging, a mess of a timelinr, and yet so few internal discrepancies. He had a few scribes. He had his face buried in a hat for most part of the process and he would dictate nonstop.
Emma's interview by his son on the BoM translation is amazing. A really good commentary on the literary aspects of the BoM is Grant Hardy's Understanding the Book of Mormon.
@@zionmama150 and that if you get a response the book isn’t true, it’s from Satan…riiight.
Doctrine and Covenants 121: 34-46 specifically verses 43 and 44 might Shed light on Joseph being hard on people then being nice to them.
Regarding Joseph Smith's drinking, the Word of Wisdom wasn't exactly a commandment back then. Some would say we have a higher law now, I believe like with Tithing, we have been reduced to a Lower Law because of our weakness.
I have read the nine (4 primary and 5 secondary) first vision accounts and don't view them as contradictory, probably even less contradictory than Paul's vision. In fact I find the nine different accounts to be more supportive of his position based on some of the details in some of them.
Regarding Joseph's Prophesies, like many prophecies in the old testament many have conditions, when those conditions aren't met the prophecy fails. In some cases certain prophecies in the Old Testament were completed centuries after they were given, I give Joseph this same leeway. Some Old testament Prophecies have be given and fulfilled multiple times in different ways, some symbolic, some literal, I give Joseph this same leeway as well.
Regarding the Book of Abraham, at the very least, Facsimile 2 is completely accurate, that may sound strange, but if you know you know, The Book itself was translated from what is known as the long scroll which we do not have, we cannot translate it because it burnt up in a fire, we cannot say the Book of Abraham doesn't match up because we do not have the originals, and that's assuming that translation is even the best description for what happened.
Joseph Smith's Exaltation is just another version of Theosis, Divination, Sanctification, Second work of grace (for those who believe in that), or Regeneration. it is completely consistent with most of Christian thought, he just phrased it differently. Also God Being Man is the entire premise of Christianity, at least in the Person of God the Son, I see no issue in this possibly extending to God the Father in some form. Based on everything that I have read, I believe Joseph believed that there is more than one eternity, or more than one existence or reality, now exactly what that means is a bit difficult, but I feel it answers the apparent contradiction, God was always God, and does not change, There is no end or beginning, however in some other eternity the Person of God The Father may have not always been how he is in this eternity, potentially being more like God the Son, whatever that means. We know more about "What God is Man can become" than we do about "As Man is God once Was" and frankly we don't know that much.
Joseph Smith's Concept of Theodemocracy, and a plurality of religions existing after the second coming of Christ, show he is not as exclusive as he appears at first. From my readings it seems, he though the plurality of religions was a good thing. However yes Joseph Smith and early members to even to the 1950s (at least) were very adamant that we are different and are not similar to other Christians. If the Church and it's members were treated differently in the early days this probably would've been a bit different.
Excellent comment.
@Justin Ingram, Thank you for taking the time to leave this comment. I'll give what you shared some thought! Thanks for watching!
There are many wonderful researchers, resources, and records that can be consulted about Joseph Smith. With prophets, by their fruits ye shall know them. As you read the Book of Mormon, pray and ask God, with real intent, about its veracity. He is the only one that can clear the clouds of doubt.
An amazing book about Joseph Smith was written by his mother Lucy Mack Smith. It is called "History of Joseph Smith by His Mother." It is such an excellent read. She writes from a perspective of being there through all of these experiences. She is a first hand witness! You also get a feel for Lucy Mack Smith, who was amazing!
The man who wrote 116 pages, a historian who left the church after looking into the history, and then rejoined after continuing to look into it, started back after looking into the different accounts of the first vision. It would be interesting to look into his perspective of the first vision, and in general the perspective of those who leave and come back as I just watched your video on those who leave. I've been looking into them recently
Don Bradley
You cannot deny Smith's fruits, many scriptures and a world wide church, miracles, healings, inspiration, revelation of God attributes. His teachings of the afterlife and families and forgiveness,. Smiths teachings and witness of Jesus Christ. and yes the current church has tended to fall away from Smiths teachings
One of the fruits of Joseph Smith is a few million people who worship an exalted man from another planet. They have no hope of heaven.
I am glad you mentioned the book of Abraham. Kerry Muhlstein, an Egyptologist and faithful Latterday Saint wrote a short but impactful book called “Let’s Talk About the Book of Abraham.” He discusses the topic in detail. I would be glad to mail you a copy if you are interested. Let me know
Hi, Ex-Mormon here. I have been struggling with the Mormon religion. Mostly because my family is in it, but I figured this was a perfect time to share my studies. First, the Mormon church is in two groups FLDS(fundamentalist) and LDS. Joseph Smith was a fundamentalist and had many wives, some being as young a 14 along with other woman of the church. Yes, he did have sexual relations with his child-wives. When I first learned this it really confused me because most of my life I was taught that Joesph Smith was a good guy and was only trying to teach the truth. Second was how the FLDS and LDS became. While on they’re “adventures” (because polygamy was not excepted back then) they were in Utah. After Joseph Smith was killed is about the time they split up.
Anyways thanks for letting me share and I will be following
@Aaran Davis Idk about what Eric said. But here is a point you haven't thought of. Marriages of women that young was extremely common back then. People forget this and then think that a 14 year old with Joseph is completely evil. Plus if you want to understand polygamy, you need to understand marriage for time. And marriage for time and all eternity. Most marriages for time were only to support a desperate woman(usually widows). When it comes to marriage for time and all eternity, the process that is supposed to happen is that they receive witnesses and revelation as to who their eternal partner is. When it comes to having children with a women who is only married for time, that can only happen through witnesses and revelation in which you see that their former husband is willing to let someone else increase their eternal inheritance through having children through their wife. If you want to understand polygamy, you must understand eternal doctrine. @Eric Lawton I think you need to do some more research. Both of you shouldn't forget that Abraham had children with mutliple of his wives; like Sarah and Hagar. So don't act like polygamy is something God is ashamed of, It is something that THIS society is ashamed of. The FLDS have badly messed up God's higher laws. Polygamy being one of the worst ones they have botched. Only God through thus "saith the Lord revelations" can set his higher laws back in order.
@@quoror747 The problem with that is that many of Smith's plural wives were already married to someone else. Also, 14 is rather young to be a widow...
And was it God who told Abraham to have a child with Hagar? Or was it Abraham and Sarah who didn’t have enough faith in God that they would have a child of their own? Which they did end up having. And them jumping the gun with Hagar made quite a mess actually if you read the story.
People use these example in scriptures to say that God endorsed polygamy.
Yes, polygamy happened in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean that God wanted it or commanded it. Actually, almost every example of polygamy in the Bible demonstrates a falling away from God.
@@kevenanderson4952 Excellent point. Or you can see how the fight between Leah and Rachel -- literal sister-wives -- led to Joseph being sold into Egypt. Or how the wives of Solomon led his heart away from the LORD. &c.
In each of these, as with Abraham and Hagar, it is important to distinguish when the Bible is being DESCRIPTIVE -- telling us what people did -- and when it is being PRESCRIPTIVE -- telling us what we should do. What Abraham did was DESCRIPTIVE, not PRESCRIPTIVE.
HEY DID YOU READ THE BIBLE ABOUT SOLOMON ( KING) HOW MANY WIVES N ADULDERY HE HAVE ,GO READ N SHARE , PLEASE READ THE OLD TESTIMENT ,PLEASE
When it comes to Numbers 23:19, I interpret that as it saying that God and Christ are not like man when comparing God's ways to man's ways instead of taking it literally like you said. In the first vision God and Christ appeared as two physical men
You are a good man. love your fair way of portraying what you understand in an honest way. Your open arms approach is the best way to reach the hearts of your viewers. As an LDS believer, we love all who love Christ. He is the stone upon which we must all build. Just a few thoughts on your questions regarding the discourse of Joseph regarding our believe in becoming like God. Many of His revelations came because he believed in the Bible and asked for further instruction on teachings he believed to be true, as he read from the bible continually. Here are a few passages from the Bible that may have caused him to ask for further instruction on this matter:
Psalms 82:6, “I have said, ye are gods and all of you are children of the most high.” John 10:34-36, “Jesus answered them. Is it not written in your law? I said, ye are gods.” Romans 8:16 and 17, “And if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” Galatians 4:7, “And if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” Revelations 3:21, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am sat down with my Father in his throne.” And then Revelations 21:7, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
Early Christian Fathers: Saint Irenaeus in second century, “Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods?”
Saint Clement of Alexandria, second century, “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods and gods are men.'” Saint Justin Martyr, second century, “In the beginning, men were made like God and that they are deemed thus worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Saint Athanasius in the fourth century, “The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh and henceforth inherit everlasting life. He became man that we might be made divine.” And then Saint Augustine, considered by many the greatest of the Christian Fathers said, “But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God, for he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” These were Orthodox Christian Saints, canonized saints, and three of them lived within a hundred years of the apostles, and all five of them believe in deification. This was a part of historical Christianity until relatively recent times and still is an important doctrine in some of the eastern Orthodox churches. In fact, here’s the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology. “Deification, or Greek theosis, is for Orthodoxy the goal and every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.”
And then the famous C.S. Lewis, the famous Christian writer who died in 1963,
“Christ came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men, the kind of life he has by what I call good infection. Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God.” And lastly, “He said, in the Bible, that we were gods, and he is going to make good his words if we let Him, for we can prevent him if we choose. He will make the feeblest and filthy of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly, though of course on a smaller scale, His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful, but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said.”
IF these passages were enlightening. perhaps there is more insight to other questions regarding Joseph Smith? Sometimes things we don't understand (even many from the bible) require time, patience, and faith to come to a clear understanding.
I can recommend Fawn Brodie's book "No Man Knows My Histrory" . This is a excellent history, written by a generational Mormon family member. A classic.
This book was written by an enemy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
@@beeapprentice2725 Thank you for sharing that.
As long as you also read Nibley’s “No Ma’am That’s Not History”. Another classic!
@@SacaPuuntas I have to confess that I lost a lot of respect for Nibley and F.A.R.M.S. when they started suggesting that the Nephite / Lamanite civilizations might possibly correspond to the Olmec ruins of Central America. That seemed like far too great a leap, and it still does not explain the claims of the BoM from an archaeological viewpoint.
@@vbcsalinasapologetics1242 FARMS pushed Central America a whole lot. I think Nibley just found certain cultural similarities interesting. Many of his writings point toward N. America. Anyhow, I think some LDS scholars tend to gravitate to any possible evidence since overall it had been lacking.
You give credit to Joseph Smith in that “..he was willing to die for these convictions,” whereas Joseph Smith was running, fighting politically, fighting legally, and was with men who were armed with guns. There was a shotout between him, a few men with him and a mob. I don’t see this as him being “willing to die for [his] convictions.” He did not die in humble martyrdom fashion like the first apostles did, Jesus or many church fathers have.
Every time I remember an event and I recount it especially years later I tell that story a little different or I might remember a different detail …
That’s what happened to Joseph in his retelling of the First Vision.. and we can learn so much more from it because we have difference versions.. if he had told the exact same thing each time he told it word for word I think then I would be suspicious.. No I have a very strong testimony of Joseph Smith .. was he Flawed .. I think he was a very kind man the more I read about him the more I come to understand
The way in which you are able to approach this with an open and honest non biased curiosity is amazing to me Pastor Jeff!
And I’m grateful for it!
You have a way with words that allows you to share praise in one sentence and a recognition of differences in the next without contention or degradation.
Bravo!
Thank you.
Joseph Smith announced himself king of the whole Earth and said he was better than Jesus Christ!
Something I've noticed from this video is that a lot of the things that were questionable about Joseph Smith, are things that actually go a lot deeper. What I mean is that there's even more to the story in a lot of cases. I love how you're learning about the church it's super nice to watch and learn how you see things too.
There were a lot of things questionable about all of God's prophets, as they were all human. King David even committed murder in order to get another man's wife, and he was still referred to as "God's favorite".
You do realize that at that point of the story it is not an endorsement from God. Rather it is God, revealing to us the downfall of a prophet. By their fruits you shall know them. David had turned his back on the mantle of the prophet to embrace the things of the world.
I appreciate your thoughtful, positive, intelligent approach. I am LDS. I have been a member of the Church my entire life. I knew nothing about Joseph Smith's alleged secret lifestyle or drinking binges. I never knew the early members were hostile towards outsiders. I do imagine that they were protective of their religion, lifestyle and families. My own ancestors were among the early pioneers. There are many stories on how often the LDS families were tarred and feathered, (men), attacked and driven out of many cities because they were different. I see this type of anger surging between different races, religion political parties, and countries all over the world. Hitler's campaign was a prime example. Putin's threats are another example. North Korea, Turkey attacking the Kurds..
.Africa, Syria, Afghanistan, etc. In almost every country one group considers themselves superior to others, hate and greed takes over and they are driven to conquer, destroy and drive others into blind submission. The Catholic inquisition was another example which I believe was totally against the teachings of Christ. But it is a pattern throughout history. Lust, power and greed makes people destroy each other and sometimes they say it is "in the name of God". I firmly believe God did not create us to have us destroy each other, that we are all children of God, no matter what race, religion or culture. I have friends that fear Muslims because of bad press about the terrorists. The Muslims are basically peaceful God-fearing people. My children grew up in Europe with Muslim friends. ISIS and the Taliban give the rest of the Muslims a bad name. But it is the terrorists that harm their own people. The terrorists decide they are justified in the name of "Allah". These are not all Muslims. We must learn to look on the hearts and souls of each other. If we are loaded with anger, hate and contention, we are not following the examples of our Savior, Jesus Christ. "Blessed are the peacemakers. Republicans want to destroy Democrats and vice a versa. God does not prefer one political party to another. He wants us to live in peace, lift each other, help each other and find unity wherever we can.
There is so much more between the lines for understanding. I would love you to do a video on the many versions of the first vision and the timeline for each.
Just recently when I was contemplating Joseph smith and the Book of Mormon I prayed for help and guidance.. I was going to pick up my Book of Mormon but then I had a feeling inside to instead pick up the Bible and just open it randomly. It was 1st Corinthians
and in it I read, god shall use the foolish to confound the wise.. he does not choose wise and mighty but the weak meek and lowly.. I think many intelligent people and scholars today are still confounded and baffled how young Joseph could have dictated the entire Book of Mormon all by himself… it’s a super human act in my opinion if not the power of god.. but anyways it gave me chills, I love that verse god will confound the wise with the foolish..
You might be interested in listening to lectures from Truman G. Madsen. The first lectures is titled Joseph Smith the Prophet. The second is titled The life and teachings of the Prophet Joseph. You can listen to them on TH-cam.
Just a heads up, I actually know someone writing a whole book on how the sources for Rough Stone Rolling are unreliable (like selectively drawing from very biased sources). Especially important for 3.
Spot on. Great observations for sure. The LDS church was doing everything to be as different as possible from mainstream Christianity and only over the last couple of years (after all the topic essays came out around 2015), they have been attempting very hard to look and sound like other mainstream Christians. For examples:: getting away with using the word Mormon in the church name - even though there was a huge million dollars propaganda a few years back " I am a Mormon", start using these words in their church : "ministering" instead of visiting and home teaching,
Grace, Trinity, Congregation, etc. Those words were not typically used back 10 years ago.
They still hold very strong position that there are the one and only true church so do not be fooled :))
Propaganda? Come on man. Have you ever actually watched any of the videos? They're inspiring stories no matter what you believe.
Joseph Smith was indeed a man of his time and the Christian revival was very much an effort to discover/discern what was right and wrong and I think that made ALL Christian denominations tribal. I am SO happy to see an effort to be less tribal and celebrate our commonality - Jesus Christ.
The more I’ve learned about Joseph Smith the more I love the guy! There are a lot of stories that aren’t true about him.
The Prophet Joseph Smith on Rumors - Evil Speaking - Backbiting
"I went one day to the Prophet with a sister. She had a charge to make against one of the brethren for scandal. When her complaint had been heard the Prophet asked her if she was quite sure that what the brother had said of her was utterly untrue.
"She was quite sure that it was.
"He then told her to think no more about it, for it could not harm her. If untrue it could not live, but the truth will survive. Still she felt that she should have some redress. Then he offered her his method of dealing with such cases for himself. When an enemy had told a scandalous story about him, which had often been done, before he rendered judgment he paused and let his mind run back to the time and place and setting of the story to see if he had not by some unguarded word or act laid the block on which the story was built. If he found that he had done so, he said that in his heart he then forgave his enemy, and felt thankful that he had received warning of a weakness that he had not known he possessed.
"Then he said to the sister that he would have her to do the same: search her memory thoroughly and see if she had not herself unconsciously laid the foundation for the scandal that annoyed her.
"The sister thought deeply for a few moments and then confessed that she believed she had.
"Then the Prophet told her that in her heart she could forgive that brother who had risked his own good name and her friendship to give her this clearer view of herself.
"The sister thanked her advisor and went away in peace.
- Jesse Crosby. Cited in They Knew the Prophet, Hyrum Andrus, 162-63.
Keep seeking, Pastor Jeff, and pray.
The Lord sometimes chastens us, then shows love, and I guess he says we can too, like parents can, teachers, church leaders….not sure who all. We learn from chastening, and the love following shows us that the one who chastened us is our friend, not our enemy.
I was thinking when he said JS was harsh and then forgiving- sounds like a Godly trait!
Interesting perspective Jeff, thanks for sharing
Love your content so far! I will be following along. Have you read the series “How Wide the Divide?” By Craig Blomberg and Stephen Robinson, and the follow-on “Bridging the Divide” by Gregory CV Johnson and Robert Millet? They were fantastic and I believe did a really good job laying the framework for discussions between Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals (and the larger Christian community)
I appreciate all of the critical thinking, exploration and of course seeking to avoid deception, as it is certainly out there in abundance; but sometimes the simplest answer tends to be the right one: By their fruits ye shall know them.
As someone who hasn't subscribed to a religion but is so very fascinated by it, I'd love to hear your thoughts on point #3 as it relates to the Bible and how you can overlook some of the Biblical points but it pushes you further from Joseph Smith's ideas!
Thanks for this really awesome and respectful discussion. I love how you're learning and growing and not allowing your beliefs to cast something off! I can't wait to hear your thoughts when you read The Book of Mormon.
@@kolobkolobkolobkolob the Quran also speaks about Jesus even more that it does Mohammad. It even goes as far to say that Jesus Is the Word of God and the Christ. So just because it has some things about Jesus and some of those things may be true and in line with the Bible, that doesn't mean that the book was inspired by God. I've always thought it was interesting that the writers of both the Quran and the book of Mormon were given their message from "an angel of light" which is exactly what the devil disguises himself as. Prophets get their messages from God, not by "angels of light".
@@Ihayden First of all, Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon, he merely translated it into English. The prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon did receive their messages from God. If you give the Book of Mormon a chance by reading it, you will find that out. Also, Joseph was called as a prophet by God himself, not an angel. The angel who visited him showed him where to find the Book of Mormon. Angels have been sent to many prophets over the history of the earth to convey messages and bring comfort. Joseph's visitation is in keeping with what we know of prophets. Daniel, Jacob, Elijah, Abraham, even Mary, the mother of Jesus, were all sent messages and comfort by angels. Why don't you keep an open mind like the pastor in the video, instead of putting down other people's religions.
@B. G. I don't believe the book of Mormon is true for many of reasons. Joseph taught that God is one of many infinite gods and that you yourself could become a god one day. But,
This is what the Lord says-Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies: “I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.
Isaiah 44:6
Also becoming as God was the first temptation satan did
“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”
Genesis 3:4-5
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr there are no original manuscripts
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr sin is part of the plan. That's why there was a saviour before the foundation of the world. Without the fall none of us would be here
But he was into children. Married children. Said marriage was to reproduce so why marry a child for that reason
Great channel my dude. I’m an LDS
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are as human as everyone else. When talking about weaknesses…..”We are all mortal”, says Elder Uchdorf, then he says “I hope that it does not come as a surprise to any of us.” Ha, ha….everyone laughed. He did too. The leaders of the church can be humorous too. I think that we just try hard to overcome our weaknesses. Sometimes not enough, but we have repentance. We do not like weakness, or sin….we want to be clean and free of any kind of sin. But weakness is not sin. Sin is giving in to weakness. So we repent, and that’s where the added help comes in….which you may understand what I am talking about. Part of it is grace, but there are special helps, the priesthood ordinances, that we have to cleanse and purify, I guess to receive that grace. But we make covenants and try to keep them to stay worthy.
Hope you read up on the situation that led to the creation of the bank in the country at that time. It wasn't just a JS thing. There was a LOT about him to admire. He was either misguided...or the Prophet of God. yes, like anti-slavery.
So remember that alcohol wasn't banned from the start. And polygamy...well it is biblical and JS was just as disgusted as anyone else by having to do it. I mean...who wants more than one wife? Wife 1 "Did you take out the trash?" Wife 2 "NO HE DID NOT!!!!" Wife 3 "I told him to paint the fence and he didn't do that either!!!!" No!!! Who wants that? Mistresses? One night flings? If this was his bag...ok...but not other wives. And I encourage you to read Mark Twain's comments on it when he went through SLC. Well the book is called Rough Stone Rolling.
The key is whether JS was a prophet. And the key to that is the BofM. If the BofM is true..then all your doubts about JS are answered. It is the fruit from a prophet. So without reading the BofM...you really can't judge just yet. How do you know what lines up if you haven't read the BofM? And remember we do not 1. consider prophets to me infallible...nor scripture. And we do not believe only in the "Quad" as you say but in continuing revelation.
But that is assuming that the faith in parts of the OT were the same as in other times. Or that even apostles differed one from another at times. At the JS started...he had to draw that line. Now, we focus on show that we have many common beliefs. I think that book you read's point was that JS was not perfect and like a rock rolling...sharp edges were worn down in a progressive way as they are for all of us.
I can’t wait to see the series when you’re giving your honest reaction to Moses, Jacob, Abraham, Paul, etc.
Non-LDS here from Australia. Here are my short observations.
Joseph Smith was murdered in 1844. Most members followed Brigham Young to Utah where they stuck together, prospered, and built a great city. Non-polygamist Mormons stayed behind, fractured into small groups and had little success.
Young was a polygamist. Plural marriage was openly practiced in Utah until 1890 when it was made a felony by the US government. The LDS Church in Utah was dissolved and its assets seized by the federal government. The LDS Church was in crisis.
The LDS president at the time reacted quickly by declaring, after doing it for 50 years, polygamy was wrong. Six years later, Utah was admitted as a state of the US. The LDS was back in business.
Polygamy continued in secret until the early 20th century. Small factions broke away, but mainstream LDS members remained monogamous.
The stigma of polygamy continues to dog the LDS Church today.
Christians find polygamy and many Mormon beliefs about God and Jesus repulsive.
Thank you for your kind and respectful words. Many people say Joseph Smith was not a prophet because his prophecy about a temple being built in Independence MO did not come true. This stems from Doctrine and Covenants 57. If you read this section you will see that Joseph is not prophesying that there will be a temple built in Independence but rather God is instructing that there should be a temple built there. The Saints worked to obey this instruction but were unsucessful due to their violent expulsion from the state.
Joseph Smith knew he was going to his martyrdom when he went to Carthage jail. He never denied the truthfulness of the golden plates (Book of Mormon) and that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him. He gave his life for these claims. It is either true or false. If the Book of Mormon is true and of God then Jesus Christ restored His Church thru Joseph Smith. If you are really interested in knowing if Joseph Smith was a true prophet you have to read and pray to God about the Book of Mormon. It is really quite simple.
I am impressed about with your level of respect and the fact that you read "Rough Stone Rolling". As a member of the Community of Christ, I would just humbly say just a couple of things. First, your criticism of Joesph Smith Jr. seem to be well thought out. In fact many within the Community of Christ would agree with them I would expect. The remainint saints in Nauvoo who ultimatly joined with LDS member churches that did not go with Brigham Young, had many of your same criticism and many would suggest that some of the church politics (like polygamy, destruction of the Nauvoo Expositer, etc.) did not come from Joseph but from others. Of course in Community of Christ, we encourage and allow individuals to have varing beliefs and opionions about Joesph Smith. Your comment that his revelation about building the Temple in Independence has been fuflilled since the Community of Christ built one. When your a church that asserts modern day revelation, I would suggest that opens the door for the church to continue to evolve some or at least for God to further specify his commandments through an open cannon. Again, many of your coments and conerns have been explored within the Community of Christ which still remains the 2nd largest group, after the Brighamits, to evolve out of Nauvoo after Joesph Smith's murder. Even Emma Smith, took issue with many of reforms Brigham Young put in place or Brigham Young claimed Joesph Smith put in place. (Emma Smith and Brigham Young didn't get along very well to say the least). Your videos are awsome! Thank you.
Apologies from the grammer errors.
Most LDS church members have not read Rough Stone Rolling. I have even had church members allege Bushman is "anti-mormon" since they have never heard of him. It is not that surprising a reaction since most LDS church members are ignorant of their history. What I like about Richard Bushman's book is he portrays a human side to Joseph Smith, flaws and all. Many apologists are not critical enough of Joseph Smith's legacy. There is a tendency to place Smith on a pedestal equal to that of Jesus Christ. That is a mistake. Even prophets of God have flaws.
@Scott Brandon I especially appreciate it rough stone rolling because I knew there would be a bias but Bushman was also very honest which I very much respected. Currently reading Turner’s book on Brigham Young. Fascinating.
Turner did a very good job on Brigham Young’s biography. He spoke at my LDS church history class at BYU just prior to his book coming out. It was refreshing to have a visiting non-LDS scholar speak to us and share his sincerity about studying Mormonism
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I appreciate your kindness and respect for our faith and beliefs. I just would like to briefly clarify that the King Follet Discourse is not considered scriptural and for that reason it is not taught or mentioned during our Sunday School or Sacrament meetings. It is as it says, a discourse. The belief that God was initially a man like us is not a doctrine and it is not found in our scriptures, meaning the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Convenance and Pearl of Great Prize. It is however mentioned of eternal progression and that we can become more like Him. Immortality and Eternal life are accepted doctrines in our beliefs. If you have any questions regarding LDS doctrines feel free to contact me. I will gladly respond to any questions.
Rough Stone Rolling is a great book, in that it is well written and objective, which is rare, regarding Mormonism.
“For a man to lay down his all-his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ-requires more than mere belief or supposition that he is doing the will of God. It requires actual knowledge, realizing that when these sufferings are ended, he will enter into eternal rest and be a partaker of the glory of God.”
Some points to keep in mind.
First, the Word of Wisdom wasn't a commandment until decades later, it was more like a guideline.
Second, the reason why there are different versions of the first visions is because the telling of the story differs depending on the time and context. When you tell a story about what happened a year ago, it will probably be slightly different 10 years later.
Thirdly, I had a discussion with someone, and the prophecy of the Temple in Missouri came up. In return, I asked about Christ's statement in Matthew 24:34 about the second coming happening before that generation passed. If Joseph Smith isn't a prophet because of that, neither is Christ.
HOWEVER, looking at the Greek text, the root word for generation, 'genea', is used. When you then look at the definitions of 'genea', one of them is 'lineage' or 'kin' (Martin Luther translates it like that). So Christ is saying that this lineage or kin won't pass until the second coming. Same thing could be said about Joseph Smith's prophecy, assuming that it came from the Lord, it would make sense that the meaning is the same as in Matthew. ESPECIALLY, if you take near eastern literary culture into account, of one line of scripture echoing the next (parallelism). Or certain verses calling back, or being echoes to earlier scripture. Christ calling back to his own prophecy, to also remind the members that they are in the latter days, the days of the restitution of all things.
EDIT: Some might argue, "Why didn't Joseph Smith use the word kin, or lineage then?" My answer to that would be that church members were most familiar with the KJV, and so the prophecy would spoken, so they would understand what was being referenced.
Just some food for thought😅
Respectfully, Friend: In Matt. 24:34, Jesus is answering a compound question, asked in vv.1-3:
1As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.
2“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus did not stop and say, "You're talking about two different things, so there are two answers." He instead talks about both things in one answer. With respect to the destruction of the temple, in which not one stone was left standing upon another, that occurred in 70 AD. You can read about it in Flavius Josephus' _The Jewish Wars._ Some of Jesus' followers would have been living, a mere forty years later.
Also, regarding the Word of Wisdom being a mere guideline ... is that something you're likely to discuss over a cup of coffee? ;^)