My grandfather was on an oil tanker in the South Pacific during ww2, I’m still amazed at the extreme courage it would take to be on a key target in the brutal South Pacific theater. Without oil, your ships go nowhere.
As a retired Army logistician I have the utmost respect for the USN sustainment ability. One thing the US military is the master at is logistics, it’s an advantage that must not slip. CAPT(R) Jerry Hendrix has been beating the drum to upgrade USN repair infrastructure. Is this an issue you’re tracking and can you comment on it? Thank you.
Hey pofessor Sal, first rate, fascinating presentation. If you continue to present these comprehensive and informative lectures, you are going to have to start charging tuition. This stuff is graduate school level info. Well done.
When you look at the fueling issues after Pearl Harbor, you can see why the Navy put such a high priority on nuclear powered ships. They're not only faster but have many times the range of oil fired or diesel powered ships. The initial cost is higher but over time they have quite an advantage.
Loss of the Philippines is what ruined plan A. Subic and other bases were the key forward bases and had to be replaced. Closing them in 1992 has also made for issues, you can put just so much on a small island in the Pacific.
Excelent, as always! Some other details could have been added, but then it would have been 2hrs+. The USS Neosho also contributed in no small way at the battle of the Coral Sea when she, and the DD USS Sims, were spotted by Japanese scout planes and misidentified as a carrier so two IJN carrier strike groups where sent to attack her instead of the US carriers. Another impressive fact, though later in the war and not the topic of this video, was that the 5/7th fleet never returned to a home port. Ships requiring maintance were fixed at forward bases or rotated home singley or in small groups if they could not be repaired in theater. All other support was at, or near, the front. As you know the old USN BBs had tripple expansion engines not the turbines of the new ships so they were slow and fuel hogs. The USN had very good steam engine designs that were 25% more fuel effiecient than the British Royal Navy's ships and required less maintaince. The RN had a very large fuel storage area at Darwin but that is a very long way around Australia to get to it, probably further than to Pearl Harbor. Luckily the Japanese mismanaged their submarine and did not let then attack merchant ships as much as did the US, and Germany. Another modern logistical problem, as discussed on "The Builgepumps" is the problem of reloading vertical launch missle tubes on today's warships. Apparently it cannot be done at sea so a dock facility would be needed as well as a supply of missles.
My dad was a supply sergeant for the US Army 7th Div. Recon. Troop, he was very complementary of the naval supply chain as they island-hopped across the Pacific during the final years of the war. He said what they needed was always close at hand. Naval bombardment was pretty damn good too!
I enjoyed this video. The idea that we could support a war effort is very interesting and thought provoking. The Navy has far fewer Naval Shipyards than they had in WWII. The numbers of shipyards capable of building naval vessels is down to a handful. The same is true of shipyards capable of building commercial vessels. It is worrying when you consider that some of the shipyards in the naval and commercial list are one and the same. Marad at one time subsidized commercial vessel builds. These were the ships that had fittings for conversion to naval supply use. Vessels built for Jones Act trade are not subsidized and therefore are not fitted for conversion for naval use. Another aspect is the US capable of quickly building the infrastructure needed to support a support and logistics infrastructure? Could we create a Kaiser Steel for cranking out liberty ships? Do we have the capability of building the machines and tools that are needed to equip the shipyards? Bob
Thanks I feel really confident! Australia is still a sitting duck. No merchant marines, No East coast repair or shipbuilding facilities. No refining or fueling capability and strategic reserves dependent on the now closing Red hill facility! we end of a long voyage from Singapore and the west coast But we have A lot of political promises that have amount to nothing
Thanks again for another outstanding presentation on an overlooked piece of Naval history. Many times I have read or watched historical accounts of this early stage of the Pacific War and been stumped on why major combatants disappeared from at odd points. Although later than the topic of this presentation, the sudden appearance of Ulithi as a staging, supply and repair base has always been a point of curiosity for me, and I have not (in my cursory searches) discovered how that whole operation came into being. Thank you for once again filling in the "blank spaces" in my knowledge of the period and I look forward to more in the future!
Thank you for this history video. I like this type of video along with your current events videos. I also like it when you show up on the Bilgepumps talks, which is how I found out about your channel.
Being a Tender Sailor and seeing what is left of the tenders in the US Navy. I find it hard to believe that without a major rebuilding of tenders which provide mobile Fleet Repair services.
Hi Sal, great topic!! The unsexy, but absolutely critical aspect of successful war-fighting: beans, bullets, and gas! I also appreciated your discussion on the ship building and repair yards as well. Our son is in the Navy on a carrier and it amazes me how long it currently takes to do a refit, let alone a major repair. I am currently reading a book in a somewhat similar vein by Stan Fisher: “Sustaining the Carrier War” which focuses on all the skills needed to supply aircraft to carrier force, to keep them flying (development of trade schools), and so forth. Great stuff as always - thank you!👍
Good answer. I should have watched it all. Fuel and oil production and refining and shipping was the key. My dad was designated as a critical occupation and worked in West coast oil fields throughout the war.
Low-level leaders look at tactics, mid-level leaders look at stradgity, upper-level leaders look at logistics. Logistics is what wins wars & just about everything else as well. He who arrives first with the most will usually win.
Marvelous. I hope that you can also talk about the rest of the supply chain. Hauling food for the Navy, Marines and Army (includes Army Air Corps). Even TP is important. Brings back memories of "Mr. Roberts".
Interesting you touched on the current Navy forces ( US and China ), with all of the electronics in use, and that it is frequently mentioned that China is hiding chips in them, the phrase " Loose lips sink ships " might make a comeback. Whereas, while at sea, any US military ship in the Pacific; one would imagine every personal electronic device would have to be turned off, and maybe even secured away in a faraday cage, since even if they are turned off they still might be sending out a location signal. With the new Starlink type of satellites, you never know if China could listen in and give the war ships location away.
Basically anyone with a satellite constellation that has radar mapping capability is going to know where every major vessel is on every ocean. They may knot know the names of the vessels, but they will know how many are in a group and which direction every ship is moving. We've spent a lot of work on making airplanes hard to detect by radar, but I don't think anyone has made an attempt with an aircraft carrier or container ship.
As I mentioned to you awhile back my father was one of those farm boys in the 41st division who traavelled to the South Pacific on a merchant ship. I am still trying dig up some more information on the ship he rode on. Like a lot of baby boomers I did not pay nearly enough attention to the details of his WW2 experience, always will regret that I did not pick his brain a bit more about the details, however like a lot of those infantrymen he really did not like to talk much about his experiences in New Guinea.
That was a fantastic video. Thank you so much. I had no idea of the early war oil and logistics problems that the US faced. Back to the present day, wouldn't the main focus of a war between the US and China be an oil blockade of China? Control of the sea lanes around the southern Middle East or Indian Ocean or the Straits of Malacca and the other straight who's name I can't remember where Krakatoa sits would be all that would be required. A six month to a year's oil blockade would destabilise China to the point of fragmentation. As far as I am aware China's navy is relatively short ranged and is not designed to sail to the Middle East, let alone fight there. A concurrent economic war like Russia currently faces against an exporting nation such as China should also be extraordinarily effective. I'd love to hear your or anyone else's thoughts. All the best.
China is no longer so reliant on Arab oil from the Middle East. The Chinese cut a deal with Comrade Putin for Russian oil this year during the Olympics. That's why the Chinese are defending the Russians in the court of world opinion over the Russian war crimes during Ukraine invasion. Unfortunately, NATO is sort of playing into Russian and Chinese hands by slowing down its purchase of oil and gas from Russia; that slow down allows the Russians to speed up the diversion of more of their oil and gas production to China. It's all a very complicated chess game for energy resources. Meanwhile, all the OPEC members love it because it boosts the price of oil and makes them richer. In California we are now paying $6 per gallon for gasoline.
While the US does help out Australia it’s Canada that is doing a lot of the technology and technical support heavy lifting that the US repeatedly said they could not do. Canada committed to unlimited support and assistance. Flying in boxes of microfilm full of plans and engineering and plant experts to get production running. The UK also provided where they could from a technical and plan area.
Incidentally, the U. S. ARMY was transporting USAAF units from northern India through the Suez Canal to a command in Bora Bora when Japan capitulated in August 1945 because the Japanese submarines still were considered that much of a threat. My father got lucky on that one.
Great video. The Chinese are now expanding into the Solomon Islands and will soon be building a navy base there. This will allow the Chinese to threaten our supply line to Australia and New Zealand.
Very interesting paper/video Sal; especially as my late father was an ordinary sailor on a British T2 tanker supporting the combined Allied forces "island hopping" in '44/45. The only comment I remember him making about this time in his career at sea was that he was glad they were not fast enough to keep up with the main fleet. I think this might have been in reference to the "attention" the main fleet received from the Japanese. Sadly all his photos, particularly an album I knew he had on this period of his life, were "lost" by his second wife after he passed away. Certainly enjoyed this type of content, looking forward to more, take care. 👍👍👍
Did she destroy them, or steal them? Very petty either way. When my great-grandma died, the extended family fell on her house like piranhas, stealing this and that so that it wouldn't go to the executor or her surviving husband. She had *her copies* of newspapers from D-Day (like, the classic "INVASION!" paper) and V-E Day, totally "lost" now AFAIK.
@@tissuepaper9962 My sister and I think she destroyed all his stuff out of spite to us. Sad to say the least but unfortunately that's families for you. Especially where you have second and third spouses nowadays.
Very interesting. My Dad was involved in the whole war in the Pacific on destroyers, he was on the Paul Jones and the Parrot during the conflict. He did not talk to me much about it the couple of times I tried to get some history from him he was dismissive, I guess once was enough for him and he did not need to relive the events.
Sal, I read two articles this morning that the Navy is wanting to decommission nine freedom class of littoral combat ships all total they want to scrap 24 ships. I find the associated press article to be without much specifics. An additional article I read from a Montana news source specifically spells out why 14 of those ships are being decommissioned, some being built as recently as 2019. It stated the USS Billings, a littoral-combat ship will be decommissioned by 2023 if approved by congress because of substandard construction and engineering flaws. How is it that ships built to last decades are being built of such poor quality with insufficient hulls and propulsion systems that cannot even meet basic proving standards. Very concerning.
Isn't the obvious place for in-theater repair South Korea? The have the shipbuilding infrastructure. It seems logical (to me anyway) to ensure South Korean shipyards can/will accept US warships for repair and they have the knowledge to carry it out.
If it comes to war, most likely China attacking Taiwan, then Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia would be involved. I think they have a mutual defense agreement. Korea has a direct land connection through North Korea and would be the easiest for China to invade and they are rather close so any production/repair facilities would be easy to attack.
Thanks for this, Sal! I'd like for every member of congress to have read this, as well as their interns! I'd like to make this manditory reading for anyone in the Pentagon, too. I know the Navy constantly runs simulated war games. I wonder if calculations of fleet=wide fuel, ammo, and consumables are also accounted for. Even in these "modern skirmishes'" we have seen how they can drag on for more than a decade. This study is ignored at major peril in the future.
Frankly, even without a "shooting war" the lack of shipping capacity makes the US vulnerable to other circumstances. A trade war or even a disaster could leave us vulnerable to foreign carries who may or may not sympathize with the US position. While the Navy hospital ships were used in the Covid outbreak, if we simultaneously had an earthquake in California, with a Hurricane in Huston, and a container ship blockage of the Chesapeake, could leave us in a compromised situation. Not even trains can move as much cargo as a ship.
Grear video! Is there plans or initiatives to leverage Japanese or Korean shipyards for US military repairs? What would be obstacles we have to overcome from a commercial perspective to make it happen?
My two questions are these: what of the marine prepositioning forces (like Diego Garcia) and the old reserve fleets. Are they still usable (especially the reserve fleet) and how long would it take to reactivate. China's problem, on the other hand is its oldest one, Japan (not us) and what of giving (oh I'm sorry selling, like they could afford them) Australia nuclear submarines. Access denial has always been a problem on the oceans, and remember, the Germans (without a true main fleet) did a pretty good job. We were always the best at amphibious operations (with Japan not far behind) but practically all that was built in "substandard" yards (Higgins Boats, etc.). Nuc carriers actually carry fuel for their escorts and as was demonstrated by "Liberty Ship" construction and the use of floating dry docks (which are not that hard to build) a fleet of supply and repair ships can be built or converted pretty quick. Please also explain "Panama registered" and small American possessed islands' cargo fleets. Would they give us time to build new ships?
Good job. Do you have a recomendation of where i can learn more about HOW the ServRons operated in 44-45? I have a book on Oilers (Grey Steel, Black Oil or the other way around...don't remember) but it is heavy on tech details, specs and history of Oiler classes and very light on how they operated. Mark Stille did pretty good (if very short) of descibing a bit of how an UnRep was conducted late WWII in one of his Osprey books on Carrier Ops and I would like to learn more. As you said it was a hugely important part of PAC Fleet's overall success. And I also have "Beans, Bullets and Black Oil" but find it a bit lacking as well.
No mention of Kwajalein Island - was the Mid Pacific refueling station. By Our ships. Loran Coast Guard was there. May have changed their ability. I lived there in the 60's.
26:06 no other country could have been so aggressive so quickly... Americas bottomless capacity to produce is unfathomable to comprehend... no matter how many biiks and lectures i consume... this production capacity is just miraculous... Have you ever done a video on what a Japanese... or fast forward to modern day China Navy would potentially look like if it were to have the ability to project forces to the continental US and have the logistic capability to supply... With dealers chuce a potential contingency adjustments a country like to pan or China would have to be deeply aware of if they were to reach that far.... Maybe it all goes back to red dawn.... With those Cuban and Russian parachuters dropping into the fields of Wyoming.... The last country that's had the ability to project power onto the continental United States was 1812 with the British... no one else comes close.... Oh I hope you do a couple episodes on that.... On the what it factor or what it would take.... I think Japan would have to capture and hold Pearl harbor... But I just can't see them sustaining.... .. I mean how many Japanese submarines even reach the West Coast in world war II You would know that wouldn't you... I know they had that submarine aircraft carrier prototype... But that was two planes.... What was required for Japan to have employed in its naval force structure to credibly threatened a sustained land engagement along the West Coast of the United States.... ... In China that does not even come close to the types of vessels The numbers and types of specific vessels required to project a carrier group across the Pacific with Even a snowballs chance of hell of reaching California....m because if it wasn't the US maybe you'd be the Aussies be the Indonesians and be the Japanese be the time when he's the Philippinos.. I bet you Vietnam still hate some just enough to watch the torpedo boats.... I have significant doubts about whether China would be able to even sustain a force projection onto the island Taiwan for even a week... I just don't think they have the The replacements and the capacity in their logistical supply line to handle the types of losses the US submarine fleet and the US Air Force will rain down on them if they start launching troop transports across the Taiwan strait.. Okay I tend to get long-winded... I'll just leave it at that for now
The very first book about the Pacific war that I ever read, mentioned that one of the mistakes Japanese attackers made in their targeting was missing the Pearl Harbor fuel facilities. Any comments?
There were 4M barrels of oil at Pearl Harbor. At most the Japanese could have hit 25 to 50% at the most. This would have canceled the Wake Island relief operation and perhaps the early Carrier raids against the Gilbert, Marshalls, Wake and Rabaul. King made available 21 commercial tankers in January and would have been forced to divert more. It may have led to the cancelation of the Doolittle raid, but it would still have enough fuel for defensive ops like Coral Sea and Midway. But this may have impacted American flyers without combat experience. Guadalcanal may have been postponed as the US had to assume the shipment of oil to Australia in May after the Japanese raided the Indian Ocean. So it would have impacted, but not to a detrimental level.
Excellent presentation. My father was a Marine aviation plane maintainer in the Pacific , and talked about how they were pretty much short of everything until later in the war. By the way, what are those crazy looking trees in your office.
The oilers consolidated with other oilers or tankers. They also used the station tankers at ports or when tanks were eventually established. There was a lot of hand off between ships to get the oil to the fast task forces.
Great video. I have read over thirty comments and there are some good to very good recommendations. I agree with most of them, particularly as regards new forward basing, South Korea for shipyards (but must assume NK would attack SK), and we desperately need new tenders. I worked for a division of NAVSEA and am quite familiar with current conditions and the status and functionality of tenders is appauling. I think the AUKUS Agreement is good, but I think we need a parallel path. Lease several (five or so) LA Class SSNs, help build facilities in Australia and train the Aussies to man and maintain the subs as a forward deployment and first strike capability. Do this now before China gets to steal / occupy anymore island chains.
Yes, yes we are in the position Japan was 80 years ago. There is no excuse for not just the lack of strategic planning going on, but the strategic thinking process going on is tragically flawed. It is not too much of a stretch in imagination to see three or for loosely connected events putting the West in an economic situation rivalling the Great Depression. No, the remedy does not mean pouring trillions of dollars into the military industrial complex, a measured broad based honest approach, taking into account historical precedence and the relationship between private and military service logistics entities should be created. One that extends beyond election cycle results.
The best way to shield yourself from the effects of a supply chain collapse is to make what you need yourself, as much as possible. If certain goods came to you in a truck, by highway, just imagine what will happen when the highway system is all bombed out. How would you get things like eggs, meat, soap, paper products, which are generally shipped vast distances these days? How would you replace them if you couldn't get them? Where will you work when your commute is no longer possible in a road car? What skills will you fall back on? Don't rely entirely on the grocery store, or Amazon. Grow what food you can, buy what you can't from local producers. "Support local businesses" is about more than economic stimulation. It's not even about the environment, although there are many benefits there as well. It's an attempt at a paradigm shift back to the way things were before the highway system was built, when production was *highly* distributed geographically, as well as very loosely coupled.
@@tissuepaper9962 I think those in charge are thinking the same thing that those in charge in WW1 and WW2 did, that the war would be over qucikly so no long tern plans need to be made. If I remember correctly, WW2 was the first war where more civilians were killed than combatants.
@@frosty3693 probably thinking what the rulers at the beginning of the Bronze Age Collapse were thinking too. I think we might have ourselves a Silicon Age Collapse soon enough.
@@tissuepaper9962 There is probably a demographic colapse that is more likely. Most wealthy countires have an aging population that is not being replaced by new births. China, due in part to it's one child policy for 25 years is worse off. But that is not imminent but not that far off either.
If you are talking about industrial ship building, true. But China is also like Japan in the 1930s. It is dependent on imported energy (coal and oil) Iron ore and food. (it was importing a lot of iron ore, coal and grain from Australia. That is a big reason China is building it's navy. All the nations that can control the passages into the China sea are not exactly friendly to China. The only other path for imports and exports might be Russia. I hear they are getting better relations and a railroad has been opened from Russia, across Siberia to China. But that is a rather thin thread to supply a nation. I am no expert (BY ANY MEANS), but I think China's economy is based on trade export of goods made in country. So a slow down would hurt them as well. But the people are under the thumb of the party. Chinese public opinion could oust Xi. But that is the problem Xi, like Putin, if facing forced removal might do something rash. The main hope is for things to remain peaceful with everybody realizing that if a war starts everybody loses. The Ukraine might be a good example to others. Another possibity, though iffy, is in case of war all Chinese ships would be seized, but there are probably plans to skuttle them if that happens. Anyway, "What is Going on With Shipping?" should have plenty material for a while, 24/7 live stream??? The dogs can help.
Very interesting study. I'll be listening to this one a few times. How did the T2's fit into the picture. In 1961our family sailed to Honolulu on the Matson Lurline on our way to four years in Japan.
Very nice. Please the 1 history and rest current. In a related way or consecuence of these milestones in our history afar and current. The change of the supposedly peaceful human nature is all the sudden contested and tainted. Large (VL and UL) interests far beyond goverments are in play. Ukraine shows the logistical nightmare and its consecuences. Air cargo doesnt move all. We now use so much fuel for every thing. Wasp CV case is unique. Long logistic lines are the sure failure point of every armed force. The Vietnam precontainer case VERY hot issue. Today almost every port in.....the world. Has the same fever. Is this a trail/exercise for clogging/choking vital entry/exit ports? Fishing fleets are known to be used as training fleets. Thanks Sal.
If China declares war, do you think they would still sell us oil tankers, or the steel to build them? 🤡 I agree with you on most of this. The battle of the Corral Sea even though many see it as a loss or stalemate. There would have been 6 large Japanese's carries at Midway it 2 of them had not been damaged during the Corral Sea. Midway would have been a loss for us 6 against 2 plus one torpedo from the Wasp. Thank you for the video.😎👍
the seebees built pipelines in the pacific during wwii - not for POL but something even more critical -- potable water ! not just for the base but for departing ships. Not something combat- oriented pop war histories focus on…..
My grandfather was on an oil tanker in the South Pacific during ww2, I’m still amazed at the extreme courage it would take to be on a key target in the brutal South Pacific theater. Without oil, your ships go nowhere.
As a retired Army logistician I have the utmost respect for the USN sustainment ability. One thing the US military is the master at is logistics, it’s an advantage that must not slip.
CAPT(R) Jerry Hendrix has been beating the drum to upgrade USN repair infrastructure. Is this an issue you’re tracking and can you comment on it? Thank you.
Hey pofessor Sal, first rate, fascinating presentation. If you continue to present these comprehensive and informative lectures, you are going to have to start charging tuition. This stuff is graduate school level info. Well done.
Agreed. I can’t enough of the in depth look at WW2 logistics, I wish there was more of it available. 👍
When you look at the fueling issues after Pearl Harbor, you can see why the Navy put such a high priority on nuclear powered ships. They're not only faster but have many times the range of oil fired or diesel powered ships. The initial cost is higher but over time they have quite an advantage.
As an avid reader about WW2 and a Quant person, this video was great. THANK YOU, Professor.
Loss of the Philippines is what ruined plan A. Subic and other bases were the key forward bases and had to be replaced. Closing them in 1992 has also made for issues, you can put just so much on a small island in the Pacific.
Excelent, as always! Some other details could have been added, but then it would have been 2hrs+.
The USS Neosho also contributed in no small way at the battle of the Coral Sea when she, and the DD USS Sims, were spotted by Japanese scout planes and misidentified as a carrier so two IJN carrier strike groups where sent to attack her instead of the US carriers.
Another impressive fact, though later in the war and not the topic of this video, was that the 5/7th fleet never returned to a home port. Ships requiring maintance were fixed at forward bases or rotated home singley or in small groups if they could not be repaired in theater. All other support was at, or near, the front.
As you know the old USN BBs had tripple expansion engines not the turbines of the new ships so they were slow and fuel hogs. The USN had very good steam engine designs that were 25% more fuel effiecient than the British Royal Navy's ships and required less maintaince.
The RN had a very large fuel storage area at Darwin but that is a very long way around Australia to get to it, probably further than to Pearl Harbor. Luckily the Japanese mismanaged their submarine and did not let then attack merchant ships as much as did the US, and Germany.
Another modern logistical problem, as discussed on "The Builgepumps" is the problem of reloading vertical launch missle tubes on today's warships. Apparently it cannot be done at sea so a dock facility would be needed as well as a supply of missles.
My dad was a supply sergeant for the US Army 7th Div. Recon. Troop, he was very complementary of the naval supply chain as they island-hopped across the Pacific during the final years of the war. He said what they needed was always close at hand. Naval bombardment was pretty damn good too!
5:56 this is great... Logistics and behind the scenes efforts fascinate me to no limits....
I enjoyed this video. The idea that we could support a war effort is very interesting and thought provoking.
The Navy has far fewer Naval Shipyards than they had in WWII. The numbers of shipyards capable of building naval vessels is down to a handful. The same is true of shipyards capable of building commercial vessels. It is worrying when you consider that some of the shipyards in the naval and commercial list are one and the same.
Marad at one time subsidized commercial vessel builds. These were the ships that had fittings for conversion to naval supply use. Vessels built for Jones Act trade are not subsidized and therefore are not fitted for conversion for naval use.
Another aspect is the US capable of quickly building the infrastructure needed to support a support and logistics infrastructure? Could we create a Kaiser Steel for cranking out liberty ships? Do we have the capability of building the machines and tools that are needed to equip the shipyards?
Bob
Thank you. Much enjoyed with my lunch. I could listen to this type of content all day.
Thanks I feel really confident!
Australia is still a sitting duck. No merchant marines, No East coast repair or shipbuilding facilities. No refining or fueling capability and strategic reserves dependent on the now closing Red hill facility!
we end of a long voyage from Singapore and the west coast
But we have A lot of political promises that have amount to nothing
Thanks again for another outstanding presentation on an overlooked piece of Naval history. Many times I have read or watched historical accounts of this early stage of the Pacific War and been stumped on why major combatants disappeared from at odd points. Although later than the topic of this presentation, the sudden appearance of Ulithi as a staging, supply and repair base has always been a point of curiosity for me, and I have not (in my cursory searches) discovered how that whole operation came into being. Thank you for once again filling in the "blank spaces" in my knowledge of the period and I look forward to more in the future!
Thank you @What is Going on With Shipping? w/Sal Mercogliano
Thank you for this history video. I like this type of video along with your current events videos. I also like it when you show up on the Bilgepumps talks, which is how I found out about your channel.
Being a Tender Sailor and seeing what is left of the tenders in the US Navy. I find it hard to believe that without a major rebuilding of tenders which provide mobile Fleet Repair services.
Hi Sal, great topic!! The unsexy, but absolutely critical aspect of successful war-fighting: beans, bullets, and gas! I also appreciated your discussion on the ship building and repair yards as well. Our son is in the Navy on a carrier and it amazes me how long it currently takes to do a refit, let alone a major repair. I am currently reading a book in a somewhat similar vein by Stan Fisher: “Sustaining the Carrier War” which focuses on all the skills needed to supply aircraft to carrier force, to keep them flying (development of trade schools), and so forth. Great stuff as always - thank you!👍
Good answer. I should have watched it all. Fuel and oil production and refining and shipping was the key. My dad was designated as a critical occupation and worked in West coast oil fields throughout the war.
There is a great book on this called Beans Bullets and Black Oil. Written buy the admiral who ran the Service Squadron as this fleet was called.
Very well presented,
factual, descriptive and logical, common sense conclusions.
Wow! Awesome video. Please keep them coming.
Low-level leaders look at tactics, mid-level leaders look at stradgity, upper-level leaders look at logistics. Logistics is what wins wars & just about everything else as well. He who arrives first with the most will usually win.
Marvelous. I hope that you can also talk about the rest of the supply chain. Hauling food for the Navy, Marines and Army (includes Army Air Corps). Even TP is important. Brings back memories of "Mr. Roberts".
Interesting you touched on the current Navy forces ( US and China ), with all of the electronics in use, and that it is frequently mentioned that China is hiding chips in them, the phrase " Loose lips sink ships " might make a comeback. Whereas, while at sea, any US military ship in the Pacific; one would imagine every personal electronic device would have to be turned off, and maybe even secured away in a faraday cage, since even if they are turned off they still might be sending out a location signal. With the new Starlink type of satellites, you never know if China could listen in and give the war ships location away.
Basically anyone with a satellite constellation that has radar mapping capability is going to know where every major vessel is on every ocean. They may knot know the names of the vessels, but they will know how many are in a group and which direction every ship is moving. We've spent a lot of work on making airplanes hard to detect by radar, but I don't think anyone has made an attempt with an aircraft carrier or container ship.
As I mentioned to you awhile back my father was one of those farm boys in the 41st division who traavelled to the South Pacific on a merchant ship. I am still trying dig up some more information on the ship he rode on. Like a lot of baby boomers I did not pay nearly enough attention to the details of his WW2 experience, always will regret that I did not pick his brain a bit more about the details, however like a lot of those infantrymen he really did not like to talk much about his experiences in New Guinea.
Really enjoyed this.
More! 😀
Interesting. It is always good to look to the past, to know where we are today.
this is wonderful.....thank you so much for all you do.....best regards, Paul Brown
Awesome video, can't wait to hear/see them all.
This is great historical context as why we need to be prepared! We aren’t!
That was a fantastic video. Thank you so much. I had no idea of the early war oil and logistics problems that the US faced.
Back to the present day, wouldn't the main focus of a war between the US and China be an oil blockade of China? Control of the sea lanes around the southern Middle East or Indian Ocean or the Straits of Malacca and the other straight who's name I can't remember where Krakatoa sits would be all that would be required. A six month to a year's oil blockade would destabilise China to the point of fragmentation. As far as I am aware China's navy is relatively short ranged and is not designed to sail to the Middle East, let alone fight there. A concurrent economic war like Russia currently faces against an exporting nation such as China should also be extraordinarily effective.
I'd love to hear your or anyone else's thoughts. All the best.
China is no longer so reliant on Arab oil from the Middle East. The Chinese cut a deal with Comrade Putin for Russian oil this year during the Olympics. That's why the Chinese are defending the Russians in the court of world opinion over the Russian war crimes during Ukraine invasion. Unfortunately, NATO is sort of playing into Russian and Chinese hands by slowing down its purchase of oil and gas from Russia; that slow down allows the Russians to speed up the diversion of more of their oil and gas production to China. It's all a very complicated chess game for energy resources. Meanwhile, all the OPEC members love it because it boosts the price of oil and makes them richer. In California we are now paying $6 per gallon for gasoline.
Outstanding!
Excellent presentation - and critical information.
While the US does help out Australia it’s Canada that is doing a lot of the technology and technical support heavy lifting that the US repeatedly said they could not do. Canada committed to unlimited support and assistance. Flying in boxes of microfilm full of plans and engineering and plant experts to get production running. The UK also provided where they could from a technical and plan area.
Incidentally, the U. S. ARMY was transporting USAAF units from northern India through the Suez Canal to a command in Bora Bora when Japan capitulated in August 1945 because the Japanese submarines still were considered that much of a threat. My father got lucky on that one.
Very interesting I think Ou have brought to lite some serious logistics questions 👍
Great video. The Chinese are now expanding into the Solomon Islands and will soon be building a navy base there. This will allow the Chinese to threaten our supply line to Australia and New Zealand.
Very interesting paper/video Sal; especially as my late father was an ordinary sailor on a British T2 tanker supporting the combined Allied forces "island hopping" in '44/45. The only comment I remember him making about this time in his career at sea was that he was glad they were not fast enough to keep up with the main fleet. I think this might have been in reference to the "attention" the main fleet received from the Japanese. Sadly all his photos, particularly an album I knew he had on this period of his life, were "lost" by his second wife after he passed away.
Certainly enjoyed this type of content, looking forward to more, take care. 👍👍👍
Did she destroy them, or steal them? Very petty either way. When my great-grandma died, the extended family fell on her house like piranhas, stealing this and that so that it wouldn't go to the executor or her surviving husband. She had *her copies* of newspapers from D-Day (like, the classic "INVASION!" paper) and V-E Day, totally "lost" now AFAIK.
@@tissuepaper9962 My sister and I think she destroyed all his stuff out of spite to us. Sad to say the least but unfortunately that's families for you. Especially where you have second and third spouses nowadays.
@@rickymherbert2899 hey, from Henry VIII, we know that *all* divorces are amicable and mutually beneficial. /s
I really enjoy a good history lesson. Thank you!
Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil. It was true in WW II. Reality doesn't really change, it is true today.
Excellent lecture - not only historical logistic challenges in WWII but also ramifications for current times in the Pacific.
Thanks!
Very interesting. My Dad was involved in the whole war in the Pacific on destroyers, he was on the Paul Jones and the Parrot during the conflict. He did not talk to me much about it the couple of times I tried to get some history from him he was dismissive, I guess once was enough for him and he did not need to relive the events.
Very well presentation
Wow…so much I took for granted based on ignorance
WW2 escort aircraft carriers. Designation CVE. Their crews observed darkly that this stood for: combustible, vulnerable, expendable.
Sal, I read two articles this morning that the Navy is wanting to decommission nine freedom class of littoral combat ships all total they want to scrap 24 ships. I find the associated press article to be without much specifics. An additional article I read from a Montana news source specifically spells out why 14 of those ships are being decommissioned, some being built as recently as 2019. It stated the USS Billings, a littoral-combat ship will be decommissioned by 2023 if approved by congress because of substandard construction and engineering flaws. How is it that ships built to last decades are being built of such poor quality with insufficient hulls and propulsion systems that cannot even meet basic proving standards. Very concerning.
Isn't the obvious place for in-theater repair South Korea? The have the shipbuilding infrastructure. It seems logical (to me anyway) to ensure South Korean shipyards can/will accept US warships for repair and they have the knowledge to carry it out.
If it comes to war, most likely China attacking Taiwan, then Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Singapore, Indonesia would be involved. I think they have a mutual defense agreement. Korea has a direct land connection through North Korea and would be the easiest for China to invade and they are rather close so any production/repair facilities would be easy to attack.
awesome video
Thanks for this, Sal! I'd like for every member of congress to have read this, as well as their interns! I'd like to make this manditory reading for anyone in the Pentagon, too. I know the Navy constantly runs simulated war games. I wonder if calculations of fleet=wide fuel, ammo, and consumables are also accounted for. Even in these "modern skirmishes'" we have seen how they can drag on for more than a decade. This study is ignored at major peril in the future.
Frankly, even without a "shooting war" the lack of shipping capacity makes the US vulnerable to other circumstances. A trade war or even a disaster could leave us vulnerable to foreign carries who may or may not sympathize with the US position. While the Navy hospital ships were used in the Covid outbreak, if we simultaneously had an earthquake in California, with a Hurricane in Huston, and a container ship blockage of the Chesapeake, could leave us in a compromised situation. Not even trains can move as much cargo as a ship.
Grear video! Is there plans or initiatives to leverage Japanese or Korean shipyards for US military repairs? What would be obstacles we have to overcome from a commercial perspective to make it happen?
My two questions are these: what of the marine prepositioning forces (like Diego Garcia) and the old reserve fleets. Are they still usable (especially the reserve fleet) and how long would it take to reactivate. China's problem, on the other hand is its oldest one, Japan (not us) and what of giving (oh I'm sorry selling, like they could afford them) Australia nuclear submarines. Access denial has always been a problem on the oceans, and remember, the Germans (without a true main fleet) did a pretty good job. We were always the best at amphibious operations (with Japan not far behind) but practically all that was built in "substandard" yards (Higgins Boats, etc.). Nuc carriers actually carry fuel for their escorts and as was demonstrated by "Liberty Ship" construction and the use of floating dry docks (which are not that hard to build) a fleet of supply and repair ships can be built or converted pretty quick. Please also explain "Panama registered" and small American possessed islands' cargo fleets. Would they give us time to build new ships?
Good job. Do you have a recomendation of where i can learn more about HOW the ServRons operated in 44-45? I have a book on Oilers (Grey Steel, Black Oil or the other way around...don't remember) but it is heavy on tech details, specs and history of Oiler classes and very light on how they operated. Mark Stille did pretty good (if very short) of descibing a bit of how an UnRep was conducted late WWII in one of his Osprey books on Carrier Ops and I would like to learn more. As you said it was a hugely important part of PAC Fleet's overall success. And I also have "Beans, Bullets and Black Oil" but find it a bit lacking as well.
We messed up when we lost Subic Bay, we still have Yakisha.
You mentioned that some ships had tow screws which with give them more speed. How is that tow screws give more speed than one?
No mention of Kwajalein Island - was the Mid Pacific refueling station. By Our ships. Loran Coast Guard was there. May have changed their ability. I lived there in the 60's.
I only covered up to early 1943.
@@wgowshipping I understand as China was mentioned.... They were not super powers in 1943 (4 years before I was born 🙂 )
26:06 no other country could have been so aggressive so quickly... Americas bottomless capacity to produce is unfathomable to comprehend... no matter how many biiks and lectures i consume... this production capacity is just miraculous...
Have you ever done a video on what a Japanese... or fast forward to modern day China Navy would potentially look like if it were to have the ability to project forces to the continental US and have the logistic capability to supply... With dealers chuce a potential contingency adjustments a country like to pan or China would have to be deeply aware of if they were to reach that far....
Maybe it all goes back to red dawn.... With those Cuban and Russian parachuters dropping into the fields of Wyoming.... The last country that's had the ability to project power onto the continental United States was 1812 with the British... no one else comes close....
Oh I hope you do a couple episodes on that.... On the what it factor or what it would take....
I think Japan would have to capture and hold Pearl harbor... But I just can't see them sustaining.... .. I mean how many Japanese submarines even reach the West Coast in world war II You would know that wouldn't you...
I know they had that submarine aircraft carrier prototype... But that was two planes.... What was required for Japan to have employed in its naval force structure to credibly threatened a sustained land engagement along the West Coast of the United States....
... In China that does not even come close to the types of vessels The numbers and types of specific vessels required to project a carrier group across the Pacific with Even a snowballs chance of hell of reaching California....m because if it wasn't the US maybe you'd be the Aussies be the Indonesians and be the Japanese be the time when he's the Philippinos.. I bet you Vietnam still hate some just enough to watch the torpedo boats....
I have significant doubts about whether China would be able to even sustain a force projection onto the island Taiwan for even a week... I just don't think they have the The replacements and the capacity in their logistical supply line to handle the types of losses the US submarine fleet and the US Air Force will rain down on them if they start launching troop transports across the Taiwan strait..
Okay I tend to get long-winded... I'll just leave it at that for now
The very first book about the Pacific war that I ever read, mentioned that one of the mistakes Japanese attackers made in their targeting was missing the Pearl Harbor fuel facilities. Any comments?
There were 4M barrels of oil at Pearl Harbor. At most the Japanese could have hit 25 to 50% at the most.
This would have canceled the Wake Island relief operation and perhaps the early Carrier raids against the Gilbert, Marshalls, Wake and Rabaul.
King made available 21 commercial tankers in January and would have been forced to divert more.
It may have led to the cancelation of the Doolittle raid, but it would still have enough fuel for defensive ops like Coral Sea and Midway. But this may have impacted American flyers without combat experience.
Guadalcanal may have been postponed as the US had to assume the shipment of oil to Australia in May after the Japanese raided the Indian Ocean.
So it would have impacted, but not to a detrimental level.
Some of those T-3 became Sea-Land container ships?
Can you put this on the podcast?
Sure.
Excellent presentation. My father was a Marine aviation plane maintainer in the Pacific , and talked about how they were pretty much short of everything until later in the war.
By the way, what are those crazy looking trees in your office.
Also, what happened to the Marine MPS Program?
Where did the oilers refill?
The oilers consolidated with other oilers or tankers. They also used the station tankers at ports or when tanks were eventually established.
There was a lot of hand off between ships to get the oil to the fast task forces.
What a logistics nightmare!!
Great video. I have read over thirty comments and there are some good to very good recommendations. I agree with most of them, particularly as regards new forward basing, South Korea for shipyards (but must assume NK would attack SK), and we desperately need new tenders. I worked for a division of NAVSEA and am quite familiar with current conditions and the status and functionality of tenders is appauling. I think the AUKUS Agreement is good, but I think we need a parallel path. Lease several (five or so) LA Class SSNs, help build facilities in Australia and train the Aussies to man and maintain the subs as a forward deployment and first strike capability. Do this now before China gets to steal / occupy anymore island chains.
Yes, yes we are in the position Japan was 80 years ago. There is no excuse for not just the lack of strategic planning going on, but the strategic thinking process going on is tragically flawed. It is not too much of a stretch in imagination to see three or for loosely connected events putting the West in an economic situation rivalling the Great Depression. No, the remedy does not mean pouring trillions of dollars into the military industrial complex, a measured broad based honest approach, taking into account historical precedence and the relationship between private and military service logistics entities should be created. One that extends beyond election cycle results.
The best way to shield yourself from the effects of a supply chain collapse is to make what you need yourself, as much as possible. If certain goods came to you in a truck, by highway, just imagine what will happen when the highway system is all bombed out. How would you get things like eggs, meat, soap, paper products, which are generally shipped vast distances these days? How would you replace them if you couldn't get them? Where will you work when your commute is no longer possible in a road car? What skills will you fall back on?
Don't rely entirely on the grocery store, or Amazon. Grow what food you can, buy what you can't from local producers. "Support local businesses" is about more than economic stimulation. It's not even about the environment, although there are many benefits there as well. It's an attempt at a paradigm shift back to the way things were before the highway system was built, when production was *highly* distributed geographically, as well as very loosely coupled.
@@tissuepaper9962 I think those in charge are thinking the same thing that those in charge in WW1 and WW2 did, that the war would be over qucikly so no long tern plans need to be made. If I remember correctly, WW2 was the first war where more civilians were killed than combatants.
@@frosty3693 probably thinking what the rulers at the beginning of the Bronze Age Collapse were thinking too. I think we might have ourselves a Silicon Age Collapse soon enough.
@@tissuepaper9962 There is probably a demographic colapse that is more likely. Most wealthy countires have an aging population that is not being replaced by new births. China, due in part to it's one child policy for 25 years is worse off. But that is not imminent but not that far off either.
If you are talking about industrial ship building, true. But China is also like Japan in the 1930s. It is dependent on imported energy (coal and oil) Iron ore and food. (it was importing a lot of iron ore, coal and grain from Australia. That is a big reason China is building it's navy. All the nations that can control the passages into the China sea are not exactly friendly to China. The only other path for imports and exports might be Russia. I hear they are getting better relations and a railroad has been opened from Russia, across Siberia to China. But that is a rather thin thread to supply a nation.
I am no expert (BY ANY MEANS), but I think China's economy is based on trade export of goods made in country. So a slow down would hurt them as well. But the people are under the thumb of the party. Chinese public opinion could oust Xi. But that is the problem Xi, like Putin, if facing forced removal might do something rash. The main hope is for things to remain peaceful with everybody realizing that if a war starts everybody loses. The Ukraine might be a good example to others.
Another possibity, though iffy, is in case of war all Chinese ships would be seized, but there are probably plans to skuttle them if that happens.
Anyway, "What is Going on With Shipping?" should have plenty material for a while, 24/7 live stream??? The dogs can help.
Very interesting study. I'll be listening to this one a few times. How did the T2's fit into the picture. In 1961our family sailed to Honolulu on the Matson Lurline on our way to four years in Japan.
Very nice. Please the 1 history and rest current. In a related way or consecuence of these milestones in our history afar and current.
The change of the supposedly peaceful human nature is all the sudden contested and tainted. Large (VL and UL) interests far beyond goverments are in play.
Ukraine shows the logistical nightmare and its consecuences. Air cargo doesnt move all. We now use so much fuel for every thing.
Wasp CV case is unique. Long logistic lines are the sure failure point of every armed force.
The Vietnam precontainer case VERY hot issue. Today almost every port in.....the world. Has the same fever. Is this a trail/exercise for clogging/choking vital entry/exit ports? Fishing fleets are known to be used as training fleets.
Thanks Sal.
If China declares war, do you think they would still sell us oil tankers, or the steel to build them? 🤡 I agree with you on most of this. The battle of the Corral Sea even though many see it as a loss or stalemate. There would have been 6 large Japanese's carries at Midway it 2 of them had not been damaged during the Corral Sea. Midway would have been a loss for us 6 against 2 plus one torpedo from the Wasp. Thank you for the video.😎👍
the seebees built pipelines in the pacific during wwii - not for POL but something even more critical -- potable water ! not just for the base but for departing ships. Not something combat- oriented pop war histories focus on…..
After obama care we don’t have the money.