This laptop was not made for people who want the bleeding edge of computing, It's made for people hoping to keep the machine for years. Intel's 12th and 13th gen mainboards are currently extremely discounted compared to their launch price and likewise after a few generations ryzen ai 300 mainboards will be discounted. Also the DIY edition doesn't save you money if you buy ram and the ssd from framework themselves. You can buy third party ram from crucial for half the money.
Have you ever understood his point? The idea is that you’d save more money by buying a new laptop every couple of years, thereby staying at the bleeding edge of technology, instead of upgrading this Framework laptop.
@rahulsawhney1279 the laptop he shows as comparison for price isn't even a fair comparison, it has less ram, less storage, a worse display, and it is on a $300 sale (it's normally $750) you aren't staying on the bleeding edge of computing and saving money buying a whole new laptop, you just aren't
If people truly care about the environment above all else, EVs would be everywhere, single use plastic would be a thing of the past. At the end of the day, people care about if something works well, and whether it's cheap. This is neither. It's for people who has money to throw at last gen tech, to experience disproportionate amount of suboptimal user experience / issues for the price, so that they can say there's something they believe in...while living with shopping regret on the inside.
I typically like your videos but the price comparison is completely unfair. The yoga you compared it to has a 1080p display instead of a 2k display. 8 GB of RAM instead of 16 GB of RAM. 512 GB SSD instead of 1 TB SSD. It does seem like Framework may be more expensive but compared to a laptop with comparable specs, it is only a couple hundred dollars more.
its says 2k in the video, also you can buy 3 of these including additional ram to bring it to 16 GB for the cost of 1 basic framework model. the repairability is great unless something major blows and you have to spend 800$ on a new CPU for your 1500$ laptop.
They are also currently the only laptop company (that I know of), that has a completely open source business model. Main board to firmware, even the expansion cards and chassis design. It's all open source for enthusiasts and tech-savvy business alike.
I feel like this review missed the mark on what Framework is really about. They're not trying to compete by pushing out new laptops every year with the latest tech. Instead, they’re focused on giving us a laptop that lasts-a device you can upgrade over time without breaking the bank. In a world where replacing a screen on a $500 laptop can cost almost half of its value, or where a tiny issue with soldered components means tossing the whole laptop, Framework is a game-changer. It’s awesome to know you can have a laptop that you can tweak and upgrade as you need, rather than being stuck with whatever you bought. There are really two types of laptop users: those who get a new one every 2-3 years and those who invest in something that’ll last. I’m definitely in the latter camp. I used a MacBook Pro from 2017 until 2022, and while it served me well, it became unusable due to battery issues. The cost to replace the battery was so high that buying a new laptop seemed like a better option. That’s where Framework comes in-if they can keep delivering reasonably priced upgrades, they might just be the future we’ve all been waiting for. I wish the video had taken a closer look at how Framework is delivering on its promises. The only way they can compete with the big brands is if more people get on board, and negative reviews might scare off those who are curious about trying something new.
Lately, I've been buying laptops that are 4-5 years old in order to save money. I recently bought a 5 year old HP laptop in real good shape for like $400 that originally cost something like $2k-$4k brand new. I decided to go ahead and get a laptop that can properly run Windows 11 as I think the cost of those laptops will go up late next year when Windows 10 loses support and many people scramble to get a laptop that qualifies for Windows 11. The only bad thing about buying a used laptop is I have to completely take it apart so I can clean every nook and cranny to remove any leftover grime from the previous owner. I also like to buy brand new fans and put those in as fans get gunked up and are a wear item that can get noisy over time. I also try and buy a brand new keyboard and install that as the keyboard usually contains the most gunk and wears out. On that HP I was able to get a brand new topcase for like $40 from China, but the topcase that came on it was in pretty good shape and not all gunked up, but might as well replace it while it's torn apart. One thing I hate is HP puts these sticky pieces of plastic sheets and foam all over the place. Like on the heatsink. And so if they get damaged, then nothing you can do about it as they don't ever sell a set of replacement plastic/foam pieces for your laptop.
The Problem with this Review... 1. He mentions the repairability but doesn't mention how easy it is to get parts for them instead of relying on 3rd party like his Yoga choice will be if he has to get a new screen. 2. He mentions the upgrade path to new parts but doesn't mention how you can also upgrade the whole board to a newer compatible board, without having to buy a WHOLE new laptop, and then being able to use the older board with DIY solutions. 3. He tries to pin Framework as a system that has to be sold to the open consumer market at BB and other establishments but fails to forget that this brand is mostly aimed to the audience who wants control on what can be done with their system now and in the future. He is making lots of points to show that this is great for a laptop but hates the higher price tag, but just tries to push against it like it needs to step up. I would rather side with the Framework group and allowing a few fans in their systems than the tiny single fan that HP tries to push on the masses. Thanks Austin for giving Framework the spotlight it deserves instead of dragging it down because of Linus.
@@KwanyKon Framework is like RaspberryPi, it's a trade off many are willing to make. Higher upfront cost for better reliability and reliability is attractive to plenty of people.
I think the 1 and 2 points are what he meant when he said he doesnt like the price compared to Yoga one, it is choice between 450 + possible repair for let say 200-300 for screen and battery if the repair shop is expensive. It is still cheaper than buying framework with weaker spec. The repair + computer is still cheaper and that is why it's a problem you can get the price down if you buy your own SSD and your own RAM, and you dont really need to buy windows these days, but everyday people will not do that, they will buy it as is and I get its supposed to be cheaper to upgrade in the future but if people can buy new one for the same price of the upgrade, it kind of destroy the purpose of buying it for cheap upgrade in the future, if framework still exist in the 5 years. Framework right now isn't for everyday people. It is for tech enthusiasts that like the goal of repairability and the goal of framework whats to accomplish. Thats why linus even invested, in hopes that when they are at least somewhat successful, other companies will see it and do the same framework does IMO Austin was respectable, and wants framework to succeed, but the price is something he can't get over in the review. Either they lower the price, or they will let people get more option to personalize the laptop to them (for example engraving, or different colour of the lit)
@@fightkostkaI mean I followed framework from day one yes you're buying a 2000 dollar laptop that will cost 120 dollars every few years to upgrade and then the motherboard is also a desktop motherboard
I also heard nothing touching on the open source aspect. If Austin done some research instead of just looking at prices on the website, he would know that this company has open source main boards, CAD designs, and even open source firmware. I honestly think that justifies the price if there's a wider adoption, since people are bound to make custom parts and even support security updates well beyond Frameworks lifespan.
@@danielsterling3499 sadly price to entry is really important, and it is the main block many people have most people can afford to pay only 500 usd on a computer, no matter how money saving it will be in the future, 2000 can be their whole salary. Thats why series s and switch sold so well, 500 for console aka toy is hard to justify, but 200-300 can be reasonable
1 year framework user here. It is expensive for the specs, but as soon as you need a repair or upgrade later down the line, you are cheaper/ better of with a framework. And i mean, it still a really nice laptop, i still love it and the keyboard is amazing. And no it does not feel cheap. Also the screen edge must be something with the new upgraded screen, because my ‘not upgraded’ screen is square and has no gap/bezel with the bezel. So i think that is the reason why it the bezel is still square, also for the new screen with round edge
The screen rounded corners on the new screen is caused by a repurposed design. Framework was pretty upfront with this when they were releasing the road map updates for it. They told us that they were working with a supplier to repurpose a screen design from someone Else. Honestly, why reinvent the wheel?
You'd save a lot more money by buying a cheaper laptop upfront with comparable specs, selling it when it breaks, and then getting a new one instead of using the same framework laptop and repairing it. I'm all for repairability, but that's because repairing what you have saves you money. Unfortunatley, Framework throws that selling point out of the water
If you're buying a Framework because you want a laptop...you don't understand Framework. Also, the comments about Ridge are right. You're like "I can't justify buying a $1200 laptop that is only normal. Anyway, buy a $120 wallet because it's metal!"
@@rickbhattacharya2334 I made my own wallet that clasps and has a clear front on it, for like $10 and holds like 20 cards in the locked clasp part, being all metal means it's RFID proof, and I don't have to pull my ID out when I need to show it, except when buying guns. STILL need to get the ol' ECC card out for that.
@@LePedant I feel no need to defend framework. I just think if the reason you're buying a framework is because you just want a laptop, you've missed the point.
@@LePedant It's super easy. A lot of laptops after they die, can't be gutted and used as an external frankenstein desktop. Currently I have a dead Acer that I used for media consumption in my bedroom and nothing else. Recent Windows 10 update nuked that computer and won't let me boot. Couldn't even take the ssd out and read it on another MICROSOFT PC to salvage files, had to use my Linux PC to get the files. THOUGH, I can't use the Motherboard outside of the Laptop since it needs to detect the presence of a battery and display connected by its 40pin ribbon cable. WHEREAS, Framework needs none of those requirements, meaning, when it becomes obsolete for heavier modern tasks, you still have a functioning motherboard you can use as an ULTRA SLIM desktop pc, they even provide 3D Printed files for making a case for it, with rails to slide in their USB C modules. Also Framework has 4 USB 4.0/Thunderbolt ports on them compared to most laptops 1, 2 on business laptops (for some odd reason, just not for gaming laptops). Also current state of APUs like the 7840U and 8840U are super capable of emulating up to Nintendo Switch. Meaning, you can create a nice sleek emulation box that you can shove into a homemade Arcade Cabinet without any issue.
Regardless of being an LTT fan, I would still be picking a Framework for my next laptop because of the ease of upgradability and repair compared to everyone else in the laptop market. You're paying for a premium obviously but it's worth it.
And they will upgrade it at some point, or the community can do that too. Like a metal case, another company could make a metal chassis. It’s so upgradable and customisable it’s worth it.
$1,300 for a laptop is nothing in the professional space. A latitude laptop can easily run $2,000. I view these as more of a laptop fleet design then something for your average everybody. I personally have a 13 and a 16 that go everywhere with me at work and they see a beating on a daily basis. So I'm glad that I know I can buy a replacement part if my laptop falls off of a ladder while I'm positioning cameras or something of that nature.
That is a fair point cuz I bought myself a thinkpad second handed only to realise that when it was brand new for an i7-6600u you were getting around 2000 bucks is insane.
I agree, i love photography and love to travel light. Lenses and camera stuff weighs more then enough. I have a surface pro 9 for photoshop and lightroom for being on the road and when i just want to work easily on vacation. And i got to say i love that little tablet/laptop!
Is there any difference in build quality between the 13 and 16? I saw a review of the 16 that had a fair bit of flex in the keyboard/track pad and panel gaps.
As others have already mentioned, the point of this is buying a laptop and upgrading only components, rather than buying a whole new laptop when the 'latest and greatest' are available. The value is that it isn't a closed system, and you're no longer held back by glued and soldered components, which otherwise force you to purchase all new hardware. It's like saying a desktop PC is bad because it's expensive, even though you can upgrade (or even just purchase) separate components to configure it yourself.
The only components you can't easily upgrade on a decent laptop is CPU, GPU, and Motherboard. The cost to replace those components will be more than just buying a new Laptop too. So, what are you even accomplishing? And before you say ewaste, I am not throwing my previous laptop in the dumpster. It works perfectly fine.
Agree with the premise that Framework laptops aren’t for everyday consumers, but think the video didn’t try to understand what customer / scenario might a Framework be a good option. For example: - Most countries don’t get the crazy sales the US have, where you can get a well-built laptop like the Yoga 7 for US$500. They usually go for US$900-1000 up here in Canada (worse in other markets), so $1200 for a Framework doesn’t sound that outrageous at all. - Many Framework customers, who are probably somewhat tech literate, aren’t buying the RAM, SSD, chargers, etc with Framework - but are instead getting them cheaper through other retailers when there’s a sale, getting them used, etc. - As someone who helped with managing IT in a small business before, the fact that you can obtain Framework parts easily on their website is attractive for maintaining the company’s fleet of laptops. Other manufacturers just don’t make parts available except to corporate customers who have huge IT departments. - In terms of customization, being able to customize the ports and the keyboard layout / language is hugely convenient. If you type in multiple languages, the only other manufacturer that offers alternative keyboard options is Apple. - For an ultrabook, where you’re realistically doing office work or some light photo / video editing, having the latest processor doesn’t matter that much? 12th-14th Intel all share the same architecture with some minor spec bump, for example… - Lastly, I really don’t get the comparison with custom keyboards. The customer who wants a complete laptop for $500 are probably buy $20 keyboards…not the insane custom keyboards this channel often features…
I did exactly that, I had between $900 to $1000 in mine, I had my own SSD and RAM. I also don't have that weird screen rounding thing like he showed, but I did not get the upgraded screen.
I couldn't agree more and I'm in the states. I was able to build out my 11th gen framework with parts that I salvaged from an old 6th or 7th gen. I upgraded as needed and flipped or donated the parts that I didn't need/want anymore. As a result I was able to build out my framework for under $1000. I'm looking to replace it with 13th gen and repurpose the old board so I can learn Linux.
That first point is very important. I just looked it up and that Yoga 7 laptop costs the equivalent of $1500 in my country. Although Framework doesn't ship to my country either...
How does it make sense to compare the Yoga with half the RAM, storage, and lower resolution screen to the Framework? When I priced out a Yoga with actually similar specs it is around $1100. I'd gladly pay the slight premium for the still better display and customization/upgradability.
Regarding customizability, their larger model allows you to add components to the keyboard tray, as well as adjust the position of the keyboard and track pad. You can also add a GPU to it.
Didn’t want a Ridge wallet. Even less they’re trying to give a Cybertruck away. And also Austin it’s not that hard to be better engineered than a Tesla.
Imma jump on the framework defense train here. I bought one back at the end of 2023 or so when preorders started. And honestly it’s been more than fine for all my tasks. I can code, do some light gaming (actually, pretty much anything the steam deck can do this can do also) swap out ssds for different osses (something I do since windows gets more battery life than Linux), and just about anything that any other laptop can. I think the thing Austin is losing sight of and not stressing enough is that you can UPGRADE the mobo he’s complaining about. With that said… I do think prices for the ryzen variant should go down. It has been a while. But then again, the new ones aren’t out. And also, you’re not going to be needing the latest and greatest all the time, especially on a laptop since most of the time, you wouldn’t be able to go hardcore with it anyway. It’s for when down the line, a new processor comes out and it makes a noticeable enough improvement that swapping it makes sense. And you can’t do that with anything that costs less than this laptop (or more if you consider the MacBook honestly). I’m not gonna go and tell everyone to buy the framework laptop. But I’ll say that it’s definitely a better long term investment (assuming framework stays in business that long 🤞🏿), than anything else for now.
@@jackmillenYou can if you're using Linux, but the performance will obviously be worse than a standard SSD. Windows, on the other hand, doesn't like being booted off of SSDs
See IU think your final point is just misleading and wrong. Cool it's a nice idea but price to performance is not even close. Performance is not good at all for the price and "upgrading down the line" won't be much cheaper as you are replacing the most expensive parts anyway. It's a cool product but it's not there yet.
Dang... my 5 year old ryzen 5 in my thinkpad must be on its last legs then lmao. That laptop came in clutch during my uni days and ill bet its still more than useable even now lmao. Perceived obsolescence is so silly, because you wont see a massive difference between my cpu and a new one in daily tasks.
@@tim3172 You and Austin is the one with the tiny brain if you can not get the concept of " More expensive now but in 5 years you can upgrade to a newer processor with out spending over a $1000 for a new laptop.
Tip - when you do videos reviewing sites selling refurbished tech, instead of buying multiple different items, buy 3-4 of the same item in different conditions to properly assess the quality control of the site.
@@RickBrostekAnd? No matter how big you are good contructive critisism is always good. What OP commented is a pretty good idea and I hope Austin takes it to heart.
@@TheBigAEC but you don't understand how understands the algorithm, and what gets views. He isn't making videos to check the quality of devices. Linus has done a video based on that with phones , but this a video on framework why even comment. It has 0 to do with this video lol
so every buyer of the refurbished site should buy 3-4 ? whats the purpose of tiering refurbished products then ? if i want to buy a iphone with description of "small scuffs, no visible damage", i would expect exactly that. otherwise, whats the difference between these websites and blind purchase on ebay ? also, why is this even on this video ? its about framework laptop lol
I don't have an issue with a higher upfront cost, if I can just switch out a mobo/cpu in 4 years rather than buy a whole new laptop. It's the main reason I've not gotten a laptop for I'd say 12 years atleast when I was in early high school.
The cost of doing the upgrade is basically the price of a new laptop anyway which is why I ultimately decided not to get a framework. I believe in their mission and it's cool, but for an extra £100 above what they charge for a Ryzen 7 main board, nothing else, I got an oled 2 in 1 with a better CPU. It's cheaper to buy a new laptop than upgrade your existing one which sucks but that's the reality.
You can also throw that old motherboard in a case and have yourself a secondary mini pc which a lot of early framework buyers have done when upgrading, it makes that high price a little more acceptable
Captive screws. Screws that all use the same screwdriver. Little gap that appear when unscrewed to make it easier to remove... That's really well thought out for repairability. Sure beats Apple's million different screws. The fact there are cases for the mainboard if you ever upgrade and want to use your old board as a desktop/htpc... is also nice.
I think Austin totally miss the mark here. The laptop is expensive yes but it is not by much when you compare the entire specs with what is on the market. Framework is also a one time purchase that will last, unlike buying a new laptop every 5 years. Framework whole point is to make repair and upgrading to a new processor easier because your not buying a entire new laptop your just buying the processor.
I enjoy upgrading to the latest and greatest every 3-5 years. I would never buy a laptop and be stuck with it forever; as a techie that is not something that attracts me. For example, I upgraded my old 11th gen Intel for a Surface Laptop 7 with X Elite and it I excellent. I cannot imagine missing out on that for the sake of having a chassis that is boring and old for 10+ years.
@@andyH_England but you're getting the same old product that is like 5 to 10years old. The only thing different is the x elite processor. Now imagine instead of paying the $1,000 and something for the "new and innovated laptop" you instead pay half that with framework. That is what you are not understanding. Your upgrading and swapping out what matters in a laptop. You are probably the goof that buys the new phone because it is in a new color and offer no real upgrade and call yourself a techie
@@azielaugust8349 I am not concerned where you spend your money on or your beliefs, just do not preach about value or e-waste as it is untrue. Even after 5-years when I upgrade to the latest and greatest if I look after my older laptop I will have a secondary device as well as the spanking new and shiny one. You will upgrade the chip in five years paying £1000+ and still have only one laptop that looks dated and after you add faster storage and RAM your extra cost will be nearer £1500 which is poor value. But I understand that there is a mindset that believes in this and all I am saying is you are paying for your lifestyle choice and most of us will not.
@@andyH_EnglandIt's definitely not for everyone, tho I feel like many miss this and act like it's for no one when they miss the point. I personally am fine with having 20 year old hardware has long has it works and can play new game(low graphics are fine for me), actually most the laptops I replaced was cause getting a new battery was more expensive 😞.
"There are some downsides" to a laptop I can repair myself on a flight at 5am in the morning in time to make a 9am meeting at my destination? The kind of downsides that mean I can (and have) upgraded it MULTIPLE times over the last three years while saving hundreds of dollars? Price comparison aside, I'm sorry, but you missed the ENTIRE point of this laptop. It is A LITERAL anti-MacBook.
I buy what I need especially an ultrabook for most users that do not need to upgrade regularly as their workflow is constant (different for gamers and professional users). And I have an M1 MB Pro 13 that is nearly four years old with zero issues and remains more capable than the latest from Framework, especially in efficiency. I think many Framework fans believe they still live in the 1980s where laptops breakdown. These days if you look after your laptop they will easily last 5+ years. I have a working Intel MB Pro 15 that is now 8+ years old and still runs well.
@@andyH_England you're in the minority. The problem isn't about a MacBook "running well" after 8 years. The problem is the complete and utter inability to upgrade an ultrabook form factor laptop (which the FW13 is) down the road 3-5 years from now when better components and newer hardware are available.
@@spdcrzy I do not care about upgrading, nor do most non-techies. My 80-year-old parents have laptops and would never even think about upgrading. When you ramble on about upgrading, you are speaking as if the average person cares-they don't, and Apple knows this. We see most OEMs now understanding that the new youth who have grown up with non-upgradeable tablets and phones do not care as much as children of the 20th century who got excited about upgrading.
@@andyH_England "We see most OEMs now understanding that the new youth who have grown up with non-upgradeable tablets and phones do not care as much as children of the 20th century who got excited about upgrading." You saying this tells me you have no idea what you are talking about. we, the new generation is all about upgradability and repairability, we do not want to throw things away and buy a completely new laptop just for the sake of it. we do not want to throw away a perfectly solid piece of tech just because of a faulty non upgradable ram or a bad Key in a non-replaceable keyboard. there is a reason we have tonnes of MacBook and think pads in the refurbished market because enterprises have to upgrade it because of non-upgradability. If you buy a 3-year-old MacBook, create a new account, and try to install Keynote, or pages, they are not supported. i learned that the hard way. Even simple essential programs are not supported in old MacBooks. its basic software. how stupid is that? Please for the love of God, do not speak on behalf of the "new youth" or the younger generation, you have no clue what you are talking about. you are in the minority.
@@swapnilmankame If you use a laptop for three years and then upgrade, why do you think the old laptop is e-waste? You can sell it, pass it on to family, donate to charity or send to an OEM for recycling. People that advocate the Framework always use this poor excuse. It is nonsense. Even if you break it after three years it can easily be recycled. The new Huawei XT costs $3000 and yet in non-upgradeable so why is it one rule for one $3000 device and one rule for a $1000 laptop? I understand the true reason for upgradeability, to buy a base model and save money upgrading. But you can do that with some OEMs already like Lenovo. It only costs $100 to upgrade from 16GB to 64GB for their X Elite laptops. Probably cheaper than Framework. Same with storage. We have strayed off the topic, that Framework is expensive and niche and that their future in such a competitive market is high risk. Hopefully they will survive, but if you read most of the comments, people understand that it is a lifestyle choice rather than a sensible value choice. That's fine if Framework still exists in 3-5 years time.
I have some issues with some takes in this video. First of all the DIY Edition ist NOT cheaper than the prebuilt one IF you buy all your parts from frameworks. This is not made clear on the website but the price that was shown in the video for the DIY Version does not inclued all the neccessary parts while the predbuild version does. If you get the DIY Version you should get your own RAM, storage and OS as Framework charges a significant premium for these. The price difference actually makes sense because they have to build all laptops for quality control. The DIY versions are actually disassembled after that so they require more work. Also the value of these laptops is not in the specs but in the repairebility and upgradebility. If you want the most perfomance per dollar this is simply not the laptop for you. There are tons of options that offer these. But there is bearely any (if any at all) other laptops that do offer what the framework does. And there are a lot of people that value repairibility an upgradebility over pure performance. There are already some manufactures that implement more rapairible designs in their laptops but as far as i know none of them go as far as framework with the concept. Right now they still offer a very unique product. I know that Austin did mention some of my points but his overall conclusion was a more negative than what i think framework deserves.
The base price is listed as cheaper for the DIY edition, meaning you do save money in the end, because it doesn't include the Windows license. If you go configure one of each identically right now on the website, you'll notice that there's a roughly $100 difference. I just did it to make sure I'm not making a total ass of myself, lol. I stand with the rest of the points you made, though, as it's not about top-spec devices. It's about a sustainable product that respects the user as an individual and a community. Make a quality product with a purpose, and users will buy it. Plain and simple.
@@crystallakedoodso you telling me has long has I abandon windows it's cheaper? Welp time to try running linux for the first time, heard mint is similar to windows will try that one.
@@EdgeLie I mean, Linux is always cheaper than Windows. But also loading your own copy of Windows and never activating it is the same cost as Linux... Free.
My big problem isn't with framework, but with chip manufacturers not allowing for upgradebility. Next Gen mobile AMD and Intel won't allow swappable RAM, same with Qualcomm. It's getting to a point where framework can't even operate like they want to.
I wouldn't have as big a problem with unswappable RAM if their base line RAM is 16GB. RAM that is 16GB or higher is pretty much future proof for the foreseeable future.
They'll stick to older designs and chips then, as long as they're able to source them, I'd imagine. But wait until CAMM comes out, and they'll have no choice, assuming CAMM makes the impact it's supposed to.
The problem with framework. Price/performance relative to competitors. Could've been said in a short. But the repairability/upgradability tax seems sooooo worth it
What competitors? The ones that put the screws under the rubber feet so you feel discouraged to open them up? Apple charges more in exchange for giving you less options. With framework, even if you ignore the modularity and upgradability, the laptops are built with repairability in mind, a lot of the smaller parts like ribbon cables will have aftermarket replacements forever even if Framework dies.
Dell/ Asus/ anybody else who makes a decent laptop are not competitors with framework. This is honestly a novel market segment. No manufacturer before ever put a serious effort into making their laptop, repairable and upgradable. Many have tried in the past but they kill the projects before they gain any sort of traction.
@@joshua7551I do agree, but I’d say you can buy a decent enterprise laptop that has repairability and some upgradeability in mind, since enterprise laptop is bought by those who have either their own on-site technicians or the means to get some other technicians on-site. The real magic is when Framework inevitably opens up the connections of the mainboard, so that we may get third-party mainboards that contain various different processors from x86 to ARM and maybe different RISC-V CPUs.
Buying a used laptop like an M2 MacBook Air for half the price is probably a better deal. It doesn't matter how repairable the Framework laptop is because buying it means that materials like lithium and cobalt have to be extracted. If you buy a used laptop, then no new materials have to be used to make it. Plus, most normal laptops like the MacBook Air are still somewhat repairable, and if right to repair legislation passes, then in 5 years a regular used laptop will be almost as repairable as the Framework for half the price.
@@domthecuber At that point, buying used anything is better. There's probably someone selling their used Framework. But you just needed an excuse to say "buy Apple" didn't you? The argument you're making is for the environment, there are plenty of reasons to want repairable tech other than for the environment, in fact, repairable tech is comparable to paper straws since switching to repairable tech wouldn't make a significant enough dent in humanity's carbon footprint. Now, if rich people stopped using private jets, then we can talk about steps to help the environment.
I think you made a handful of valid points (slightly older cpu) on not getting it; but that Lenovo you mentioned is ON SALE, half the ram, half the SSD, and a lower quality screen. The points you made could be informative but if you’re going to suggest a different option then at least make sure both computers are in the same class. Also volume pricing is a thing that bigger OEMs can get components cheaper vs Framework and, as you clearly demonstrated, Best Buy can eat the cost of the computer by slashing the price in hopes you buy something else. I think if you’re going to do an actual “the reason to not buy a computer “ you need to make sure you are presenting true facts to make your point and not taking short cuts to make that point.
@BriBCG at some point most tech youtubers lose touch with the price of tech without even realizing it. "Just buy a new one" isn't as easy for people with regular jobs who can't write every new laptop off as a business expense.
@@novelezra At least there are few cool companies like Samsung and Apple that make that "Planned Obsolesence" less of a pain with their generous trade in programs. I don't know how far that program extends, I know for Samsung and Apple it's watches, tablets, and phones. Don't know if it goes into their PCs.
The higher costs from framework are all about the economies of scale. Framework is a small company and can only buy a small (compared to an HP or Lenovo) batch of parts. If you buy 5,000 brand new ryzen processors, AMD might sell them for, lets say $150 each. Hoewever, if you are a large company like HP, you may be buying 500,000 and AMD might be selling them for $75 each (all numbers made up since I'm not a parts buyer for a large company...). Now extrapolate that out to every single part in the laptop plus research, design, marketing, etc. and of course you'll be paying a premium for a smaller company's product. It comes down to is it worth it to you to support that company and their goals. Who knows maybe in the future Framework will be a powerhouse and be more price comparable to a big brand or maybe they go broke.... Only time will tell but they only get bigger by people seeing what the company is doing and supporting it.
And the custom keyboard market in the beginning was extremely expensive when it was first starting out, just because you finally got into the custom keyboard market when it's finally cheaper to actually get into it, doesn't negate the fact that it was once a very expensive hobby, and it can still be a very expensive hobby. Same as every new style of tech. P. S. You also get to reuse older framework boards and memory when just upgrading internals, just as you do when upgrading custom keyboard components on some boards.
Framework may not be the cheapest, but at least you can do stuff like upgrade the RAM, replace the SSD/m.2; things that used to be common in laptops but aren't anymore. They're becoming the only reasonable choice left.
Its about as cheap as a startup lije framework can do it with the quality theyre offering. Its actually astounding its priced as it is with everything you can do to it
@@ShockingPikachu Definitely. And as they gain more popularity, those prices should start to go down with the increase in production. They're also reaching out to 3rd party companies to make accessories; which will help with the prices as well.
I was fixing an iMac earlier and was thinking "Huh, the RAM in this is surprisingly easy to upgrade, and the screen is really convenient to replace" I then remembered that the unit was from 2010. Oh what we have lost
All brands have some models left that do, but it's definitely a trend of removing the upgradability. The models left that are upgradable are as expensive as the Framework laptops; without the flexibility.
Its a boutique item. I picked up a Framework after my $1,300 laptop keyboard broke and they wanted to charge me $700 to fix it. I love my Framework and the fact that i can upgrade when i want and repair everything is a great incentive. "For the price you could buy a new laptop every coupe of year" so you're missing the point of not contributing to ewaste....got it. Rich guy not understanding why it costs more than the mass produced laptops. Why do those super expensive keyboards you love so much cost so much more than the mass produced keyboard only costs $15. Wouldnt you consider that a waste of money?
I think the best part is if you upgrade the laptop mobo, you can put the old one in an enclosure and have a super efficient little desktop computer box. Like they have solutions for the "what if i upgrade" question. Put the guts in a case and you have a small PC.
You didn't simply go on ebay and type in the laptop model + keyboard? They're between $20-50 online and an easy to find repair manual will show you how. Congrats(?) on wasting money and telling people you're helpless?
Does Framework ever upgrade the design of the laptop so they can, say, do a better cooling design or layout? Or do they just run the same design over and over so you can upgrade parts more easily? I could see maybe have a design for 5 years, and then upgrade it with a better internal design and run that for say 5 years, but the parts may not be compatible with prior versions due to changes in an improved design layout.
When I bought my laptop, it came with, 16GB RAM, 500gb SSD, glossy screen and 11th Gen i5. Over the last 3 years, I've installed a Matte screen, 64GB of Ram, 1 TB, and the best part, installed the 12th Gen i7 board. Not to mention being able to hot swap the expansion cards as needed.
I hear you Austin but I think playing the long game is more of the spirit of what Framework is trying to do here. I don't disagree with most of your points that you made but the question in the end is what one values more in the now and the future and what compromises they are willing to make for the benefits that Framework has to offer. There is no wrong answer here. I for one I'm watching them closely when it's time for my next machine.
The laptop is made for people who don't want to spend 1300 dollars to get a new laptop ever other year... the purpose is you can upgrade to a new motherboard combo in a few years and just a simple swap. Also, you need to account for the overall shell needs to accommodate two different boards and be flexible enough for future upgrades so it takes time to make that custom board, test, and get just right.
Maybe some of the comparisons make sense for US but try and find a laptop for 500 in the EU with similar specs lol, you’ll get a plastic laptop and 8gb and 256ssd 😅
Definitely like everyone is saying, he's missing the mark. If anything, the price point is a little higher at the start, but the longevity is the main selling point. Oh it's time for a new processor, just replace the processor and motherboard components, and not have to buy a whole new laptop again. That's the point of this laptop, is to replace what you need as you need it instead of buying a new laptop.
the price isnt an issue for people switching from mac - i got someone who was a mac user for over a decade to switch to this also, it pays for itself in upgradability...
He is not wrong Framework is known about 1 generation/release slower compared to newest model selling on shelf Hx370 compare to 7000 series which is their current listing（8000 is about the same so we skipped that part） Core ultra 100 been launched and selling so long , I just received my batch1 core ultra last month 😂 Framework never on the top of performance as they can't get good deals and exclusives like bigger brand . Plus their modular design cost space , lots of space . They can't fit a large PCB or large cooler for more performance headroom. But I bought mine because I know what I wanted 😊
@@frankwong9486The new CPUs will require soldered in memory ICs so they will have to figure out how to do that. It will take some more time. I'm waiting for mine, I don't care if the CPU is 1year old. I'm on a 2nd gen Intel CPU with 2GB of ram at the moment....
@@tuttocrafting I think it was not technical issue but more like too much sku or need more bargain power to get good deal from AMD or intel, memory onboard isn't that hard for the industry for AMD 300 series they can running on sodimm or memory on board , the sodimm slot have enough space to replace with lpddr5 but they are too far for highspeed lpddr5 which means redesign of new PCB plus they have to give up some modular score of using lpddr on board (not replaceable by user) Intel core 200: memory on package , not on mainboard and you purchase the whole thing from Intel .also need PCB redesign ,but I am sure Intel will have document or guidelines for that maybe framework13 with core 200 can free up those sodimm slot space for extra nvme slot ?
"The only thing better engineered than this is a Ridge wallet." Ah, so Ridge wallet will only _partially_ sever your fingers if you close it carelessly
Let's say it like this, if some people value repairability, modularity and opensource, they would pay anything for the price. Just like apple people, they would pay anything just to be in the ecosystem jusg because they value it more than the norms. So I don't think anything is overpriced if there isn't a A to A comparison, in the end it's just up to people to value how much are these features to them. What Austin said was from a casual user perspective, and most of the points are valid from it.
You had the same take with the Ayaneo vs Steam Deck until Jared pushed back and gave you the comparison of, yeah, I could buy a Honda Civic, but I could also get a Ferrari, and then after that you all of a sudden have been all Ayaneo regardless of price. I'm sensing you'll see the higher upfront cost to better usability and upgradability and repair cost in the future. You really need to think more about just the money in the beginning. Which is funny since you scam yourself out of a lot of it on purpose frequently yet it's too much when it's not for a scam. Come on man.
Well those scam videos he does, he knows he can 1) Write it off on taxes 2) counts on YT paying him back through monitization, 3) is usually paid for by the site he's buying from or through sponsor spots. So it's not like his money.
@tdata545 You're completely right; all that cash that Austin gives to the scam services that he makes videos about all the time isn't his money. It's the scammer's money now :)
@@tdata545 That's the sarcastic part of my response since I know that and him being pretty well off money-wise, yet he seems to overtly focus on just price for a lot of things without thinking things completely through. Price vs cost are different beasts. High quality tools may be a higher price but overall cost of not needing to replace everything when upgrading down the line negates a lot. And you have older boards that can be used on other things, in the case of framework upgrades down the line.
God why is everybody in love with framework??? It's cool but that upfront cost is a huge issue. If it was kind of close I get it but it's not. hell I constantly find better laptops online for half of the price of this thing. Also don't ignore those prices wehne upgrading the framework they are not that cheap.
@@ootheboss9307 1) they're literally the ONLY game in town doing what they do. 2) It's not we're in love with them, we just don't like FAKE NERDS in oversized glasses, s hit ting on them for no real reason and without provocation. 3) A lot of us tech minded people are also tinkerers meaning, we like to be able to repair our gadgets ourselves. Right to Repair.
18:58 omg, the whole point is that people shouldn't "just buy a new one", when performance is not what you want anymore, the screen, the body, the keyboard etc. might still be perfectly adequate and in working condition, why throw them in the trash.... the only real concern is if framework will be around, but if everyone chickens out because of that, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
That the aftermarket use of motherboard outside of the chassis and that this is a higher initial cost for half price upgrades later, aims at a much more tech audience.
I own one and I think it’s pretty sleek and premium feeling. I had a plastic gaming laptop before that was only a little less money and it felt like crap compared to the framework. Overall, I love mine and despite the price, think it is a worthwhile investment.
True. And they didn't touch on the things that are actually annoying with the frame work 13. Like its insufficient cooling. Which was particularly bad on the early AMD pre built models that had bad thermal paste application. So you had to open it up, and reapply the thermal paste yourself just to avoid crashes and serious throttling.
To come to a middle ground in the discourse here, as a framework user since they're first main board, this review really missed an opportunity here. I love my framework but it definitely does have problems that I'd like to see someone talk about. That said this review really missed the mark there. I took my laptop from a 4 core 11th gen i5 to a ryzen 7 7840u while I got to keep using the rest of the machine that I still liked. I was able to turn that old main board into a server and use my thin and light laptop to play triple a games at friends houses months after it struggled with some indie stuff. It's not the cheapest thing out there but I'd rather pay more for a system that is not only meant to last, but is also coming from a company with a strong environmental focus. All of the packaging is recyclable. Not getting a brand new laptop every few years means less batteries that I have to take care of to get new tech. Yes the fans are annoying and I would like to see them improved. I'd love to see a touch screen option come out, and it's a bit annoying how long it can take for upgrades to come out, but to me it's worth it for a one of a kind laptop that I feel good about buying, using, and not having to worry about. The hinges on my laptop got loose over time, and for $20 and 15 minutes of my time that is fixed, which you really can't do with any other laptop out there. Framework has problems, but the pros outweigh the cons to their target audience, so next time just please try and see it from our perspective.
Fun fact: The DIY option is mainly cheaper because it doesn't include the Microsoft licence. For Framework the DIY version is actually more expensive, because the fully build the laptop, test it then dissasemble it again for shipping.
I keep thinking about this review. I own a framework laptop 13 and though I can't fully disagree with the video, the comparison feels a bit weird. I'm not a windows user either so I saved money by going the DIY route. All in All my Framework 13 would cost $1249 before tax, that's a build with a Ryzen 5 processor/ 32GB of DDR5/ 2TB SSD/ 120hz 2.8K screen. So when I look at what they're comparing it to I'm just thinking, but my laptop has 4X the memory and 4X the storage, plus the piece of mind that I can buy replacement parts easily. Don't get me wrong Framework laptops are priced more expensive than the competition. The gap starts to close a bit when you realize I chose these parts for a reason, and if I'm buying that Lenovo Yoga 7 I'm going to have to spend additional money to upgrade it.
I bought the 202 MacBook Air. But I needed the extra core, 16gb of RAM, and a 1TB SSD. So instead of $899, it was $1675 after tax. Perhaps how Framework charges for their upgrades aren't so bad after all.
So my friend bought Framework because System76 was more expensive. He is a Linux user and like to have that ability to control and repair his software and hardware. He said the hardware with Framework, may be a generation behind but that's ideal for the Linux kernel.
While I agree its pricey for what you get you have to factor in what you can do with this when you upgrade your laptop, the internals can be taken out of the case and slotted into a case to make into a secondary pc worth a few hundred dollars you cant do that with most mainstream laptops easily.
I'm pretty sure Framework offers guides on how to take the old motherboard and turn it into a mini-deskptop PC while even offering free SLI files to make your own case for them that has the USB C rails so you can still use Framework official USB C add-on modules. And for most people the U line by Ryzen is getting to the point that it's pretty good for light and heavy duty tasks like 4k video editing without a dedicated GPU. So 90% of people can find uses for it, upgrade the internals, pawn off the old internals on family members that just want a Facebook and Word Processing Machine that can do light gaming as well.
While I have FL13 sitting right next to me, I feel like ability to upgrade is not the strongest argument to make. I mean it's cool but feels not competitive price wise to justify it as a factor. However, ability to get schematics to replace $1~5 SMC instead of whole board and having "care" built in IS a valid point.
@@bbbo85 I think they're offering it as cheap as they can, and buying secondhand is encouraged on their site. It seems like they're trying to make each board generation cheaper than the last. Whether they succeed is another story, but when they say they're trying, I believe them.
The Ryzen 8640U is the same CPU than 7640U. The 8 and 7 at the start of the model are just the year and does not mean anything only the 6 and the 4 in the middle mean something. The Yoga probably have soldered RAM, so you would have stay with 8GB for ever on it. Most of the people buyin the DIY, are buying the Storage and RAM somewhere else. P.S. I own a older 10y old Levono Yoga 2 13 that came with 4GB without mentioning that was soldered...
i agree with the critical comments from people that have more energy to type out their thougts than me, so i'll just say this- this review ain't it, chief
So many bad arguments. Sure framework is a bit expensive, however you're buying it with the guarantee that you'll always be able to repair it if you ever need to. As someone who's been using a PC from 2009, why throw away products that work
Before I decided to preorder a Framework laptop, I checked other options to see how much more the Framework would cost. And the difference is by no means as big as this guy tries very hard to make it look. Obviously the specs in his comparison are way off, so that doesn’t make sense in the first place. I compared the Framework with my specs (Ultra 5, 16 GB, 1 TB) to Lenovos ThinkPad, some laptops from Dell and Apples MacBook Air. The price difference was not big at all and Framework was not even more expensive in every scenario. As others have stated before, people who consider a Framework laptop won’t settle for a cheaper laptop instead if it means that they have to give up repairability and environmental benefits completely.
If the focus of this video was supposed to be about price, then why not put some more effort into finding alternatives that are actually comparable. The type of processor, the power delivery, SSD and RAM speed can influence the overall performance even if the specs look similar at first glance. That being said, I believe there are genuine alternatives out there since I read the word “repairability” more often recently in marketing material of Lenovo and Dell for example.
The amount of lenovo laptops i see come through our workshop (more than any other brand for a hardware fault i might add), and the absolute pain in the ass those things are to repair, the framework approach is still the better a option even with the higher price
I would buy this and just put linux on it cause windows sucks. Btw Austin your hating on frame works because there expensive, you will also recommend apple mac books what are just as expensive if not more.
I don't majorly disagree with anything that Austin brings up here (and I own a framework laptop), except for maybe one thing. I think to review this laptop price and spec wise against other laptops so flatly does a major injustice to the purpose and motivation behind framework. I think it misses the idea that this laptop allows for users to take back their rights to do what they want with their computers. If we review this from just a regular laptop review perspective, then yeah there is going to be better laptops for a better price. Go and buy your absolutely un-repairable dell xps laptop. But as long as we do that, we just continue to pay money to the companies who continue to prove that we dont actually own anything anymore. I at least feel like with Framework, I am helping to push the cause forward towards a world with better repairability and sustainability.
Expansion bays are USB-C, if I’m correct. So you could plug the cable into the port without an adapter (USB-C adapters are cheap, because it’s just some cables, no electronics).
I don't think the people buying this are going to care about having the latest hardware. If they're buying a repairable laptop, they're planning on having it for the long haul. Components that are a year old really aren't bad. I'm using a PC with an i7 8700k and a RX 5700xt. It still runs even the newest games on mid-high(very few ultra) settings, so I don't see a need to upgrade yet. I feel that is the kind of people the laptop is targeting.
Ok so, I am not one to comment often but I feel your comparison to the Lenovo to be way off, for several reasons, and it does Framework a great disservice. And as someone that has been looking in the farthest corners for a laptop that suits me and my needs, I have looked at this Lenovo already, and the specs are horribly misleading on the product page. The Lenovo you showed had the following specs (model: 83DK000DUS, Model number shown at 16:54) - Ryzen 5 8640HS (a little bit quicker than the Ryzen 5 7640U, sure) - 8GB of completely non-upgradeable RAM (Yes, I double-checked, you need to order enough when you buy it, Lenovo explicitly lists it as Soldered LPDDR5) - a 512GB SSD (likely a cheaper offering than those from Framework, which are WD Black model drives, the SN770 or SN850X) - a "2k" display, bonus being touch (Lenovo lists it as a 1920x1200 300nit 60Hz IPS panel, which is NOT even close to the 2.8k 2880x1920 500nit 120HZ display you got on the Framework) - The Lenovo is a 2-in-1 model which IS a bonus, sure - You compared the Lenovo at its sale price, of $450, which it is no longer on sale and is $750 So, a better comparison would be an HP Pavilion Plus 14Z-EY100 with the 1TB upgrade, which has an MSRP of $1120 for the Ryzen 5 with 16GB of RAM and a 2560x1600 120hz IPS 300nit display or $1260 for the Ryzen 7 with 16GB of RAM and the 2880x1800 120hz 400-500nit OLED display, I am sure there are other similar comparisons, but it is one I have found during my searching. I love the content Austin but please make sure your due diligence is done for something like this, as the Framework and Lenovo are in completely different categories (a higher end version of the same Lenovo model would make a better comparison instead). I feel very as though the view taken here was very skewed to which I can say I am very disappointed, but I still look forward to future videos.
No mention of being able to upgrade the main board in the future and use the current board in a standalone casing? This is a huge thing that Framework has over generic brands.
I'd say actual spec comparable laptops cost around $300 less, which I consider that the cost of "Apple care" or the likes. This was the reason why people were pointing out that it was "cheap" considering engineering and the level of scalability they were working with. I bought the laptop knowing full well I'll be buying whole another framework laptop if I wanted to upgrade, but piece of mind that they will send repairshops schemetic (with NDA signed) and not cockblock parts is refreshingly...not "Megacorpsie". Even for thinkpads.
I’ll be honest, for the upgradability, I would still do it, especially when it comes to the Framework 16. The ability to swap and upgrade your graphics card and any other basic components is a huge selling point for me.
The other thing with framework is when you've upgraded the components, you can sell or even better buy a kit to make a media PC or any other 2nd use lower tier pc to continue it's life. makes e-waste much much further down the line than a regular laptop. So yes, maybe pay a Premium today, but benefit in the future (cheaper to upgrade, and reuse the parts for secondary devices) double bubble.
I disagree, I think he voiced his opinion pretty clearly. Price is definitely a concern for most people in this economy and on top of that not getting the latest tech is also a big oof. Ofc you will have Framework fanboys who cant fathom that people have different priorities, just like the Linux nerds lol
@@evilleader1991I feel like he did miss a point, and many framework users aren't really saying why the price is "fine". I don't own one but have looked into it this is my opinion. This is not for people who only want the latest technology, only rich people can afford to upgrade it every time. BUT!! I must say that usually something else in my computer breaks before the hardware lacks behind, and those upgrades are considerably cheaper. I would only upgrade once the things you want to do with it become hard with it's current power, but it can be cheaply maintained until it reaches that point. If you want bleeding edge, this will be a loss of money, if you are fine with being behind but want to keep one usable this might be cheaper.
I like how nobody in the replies even considers that electronics can develop faults and stop working over time. And portable electronics do so more because they are portable and people are either careless or clumsy. Accidents happen, you can spill water, drop the laptop, sit on and have you dog take a chew on it. Then goodluck getting your cheap laptop repaired. There are dozens of hardware repair youtuber out there that show how minor hardware faults such as a 2¢ smd cap can completely cause the laptop to not boot and trash the whole laptop because the manufacturers refuses to provide any sort of spare parts, guides let alone schematics for their boards. No one bothers to point out the e-waste it would generate in buying "3 laptops for 1 framework". That's what framework is doing out here, they're not just making a modular repairable laptop they're actively trying you to not make more e-waste. Materials like copper and aluminum are having their prices sky rocket in the last couple of years which is why we no longer see aluminum backs in smartphones now. It's either glass or plastic.
If you think of framework as any other laptop then yes it is more expensive, however when it comes time to upgrade and you can just buy the mainboard for $500 instead of dropping $1200 on a new laptop the value starts to show in spades. Now the real question is how long will they be able to support that? If you could get 3 upgrade cycles out of your base investment then you're clearly in money savings
Dude you can buy same spec for 30-40% less right now and use that saved money to purchase new laptop later. Also you can sell old laptop to recoup more money. Framework is all about hype.
I have to criticize Austin and the rest of the Techtubers out there for their outlandish expectations of Framework. I mean you want the laptop to be the same quality, performance and style as the other laptops with the same price, but still want repairability & modularity? This is not even mentioning the significantly smaller economies of scale considering consumers will not be buying new keyboards, webcams, chassis, etc if their laptops simply need a new battery?
Listen, this is complete honesty for me. Austin Evan’s = entertainment Linus tech = entertainment and facts Jays2cents = facts and entertainment Gamersnexus = Straight facts. That’s how I view these channels and how I get my information. And I love them all for those different reasons.
Except Austin hasn't been entertaining in a while. "Is 'X' a scam site, video 1,020". BOO... His post 1990 birth age is showing. I'm finding that 1990+ YTers are the most annoying and entitled. Like mommy and daddy bought them a yt channel and kept funding them until they could stand on their own, thus not learning the value of money, or end user repairability. "What, you don't get free laptops 20x a year from companies like me? Well, I guess that's a you problem." It's an arrogance that comes from ignorance and not being told "no" enough as a child.
I can see where he is coming from regarding the price, I looked into one and for the spec you’re getting for the price I agree it is expensive, but the huge plus is the repair-ability, upgrade-ability and configuration of the laptop. But at the end of the day the only thing that has stopped me ordering one is a) the price, b) the spec of the CPU. I don’t want to spend this sort of money and then find out that after a windows update it is starting to run slow. It’s probably great for an IT dept who manages the laptops and PC’s the company and staff use. But the idea behind framework is a fantastic one and I take my hat off to them.
the takeaway is that framework should lose like 75% of earnings for the sake of giving customers a better price for the sin of being new and trying new ideas, gotcha
I’d happily pay more for upgradable and configurable laptop. My 2017 xps13, apart from battery, is working completely fine but 8gb of ram is too little now. New xps 13 (comparable spec) would cost me around $3000 (yes, 3rd world country “hi end tech tax” is high). Do you see the issue here? What if my old laptop is serviceable?
“That’s just a MacBook keyboard.” Hurts me, just because it is silver and black, it could feel completely different. Chicklet style keyboards have been around for 15 ish years now
If it ain't broke, why fix it? Another thing that needs to be considered is logistics. Framework can't walk up to a keyboard OEM and say "I need a keyboard that will break when a speck of dust gets in the membrane" and get the product. They don't have the money or size to do that. What they can do, and you see this with the curved screen, is they assess what is currently out on the market and choose the best with what's available. If I remember correctly, the rounded corner screen is actually from the same OEM Microsoft is using for Surfaces.
@@OmonarcAnd I'm sure Austin would be TOTALLY fine with the 120hz upgrade costing $500+ in that case, seeing that Framework would have to foot an insanely high bill just to get rid of the rounded corners.
@@BigTylt There's also the fact that Framework open sources all of their designs so any OEM can make a drop-in replacement for a Framework laptop if they want to. I've half considered trying to round up some funding to get an OEM to make some e-ink displays for Framework laptops.
When I saw Linus reviewing these, I thought, well, okay, a bit expensive, but it’s a cool idea! I have to say, your orange highlights on it look great! Still a bit expensive, but yeah.
How many laptops have bezels that are magnetic, easily replaceable keyboards.. That's just the beginning. You can swap the whole motherboard for a new gen, so you get your upgrade with just a mobo/cpu swap, the screen gets reused, the case, the e-waste is massively reduced. Oh and then you can put that old mobo /cpu into a desktop case (buy or 3D print) to continue its life. It's not DOA after an upgrade. Hell, I had a hinge/ case break on an Asus, I could source the part from Ali-express for almost half of what I paid for my $400 laptop. Framework you can buy OEM parts direct, not from rando marketplace sellers on fleabay, or amazon. That's Huge!
the community has already made 3d printed parts for framework, and its open for community mods. yes older laptops have other stuff. but they cant be upgraded with the cpu, they cant be added a gpu on the 16 inch version. framework is ideal for longevity and some parts are better for value. but you dont just buy this for value, you buy it for the repair status and the ease of putting it together and taking it apart. this is the first dislike on an austin video i have ever done in about 5 years of watching his content if light watching counts its to the 7-8 year mark.
12:07 thats normal on desktop pcs aswell, especially amd ones took forever. the 8000 series amd that framework doesnt have is just the 7000 series with "ai".
This video is a culmination of every issue I have with Austin's reviews. Please try harder to understand the product and the market it inhabits before you make a review about something and lambaste it for non-existent issues or issues that are there but have trade-offs that make them extremely worth it.
A lot of the 'ecosystem' will come from 3rd parties and private users, that's not necessarily something that they have to carry on their own. And they do provide all the technical drawings to make it as easy as possible to manufacture custom parts for it
I think you can’t compare a laptop customization options to a custom keyboard, cause for example the keys in laptop keyboard can’t be replaced by the end user as easily. Also expecting them to make customization options available, which maybe some will use and some don’t, might bring the cost for everyone up, cause they need to get the invested money back. I’m not saying they shouldn’t, but there are always costs associated with it. Also as said, framework is small and doesn’t have the power to control the market and costs as much, then wanting from them to make the laptops cheaper…. Idk if that would work, cause they also need to grow to make stuff cheaper and faster. Also you reviewed it as a person that wants the newest hardware and doesn’t care about the upgrade ability… that’s not their target audience, why not factor that in?
You know, it's kind of irritating that Austin is SO critical of an actual good product such as the Framework Laptop, but then has nothing bad to say about absolute shite products that he is paid to make a video about...it takes away any and all credibility Austin has. HUGE disappointment. I guess there is a reason why I skip most videos on this channel now, most likely going to unsubscribe in the future.
Like it seems he's intentionally failing to understand the point of the laptop. Its not for value, its to give the end user the ability to actually DO stuff with their laptop. If other companies offered half the ability to do what framework can, they'd charge way more
Wait, you don't want to watch the thousandth; "I bought a bunch of shit from supposedly sketchy site, that I'll just throw out and create waste out of;" videos? WEIRD. At least when Great Scott does his Aliexpress videos, he goes into it with INTENTIONS of buying interesting and hopefully useful products. Mr Whostheboss even has a better, "Buy a bunch of crap" videos. Austin reminds me of TylerTube, a guy who just buys a bunch of stuff, doesn't understand 90% of the stuff, has such a sheltered upbringing that he can't even begin to put himself in other people's shoes, and thus thinks his opinion is gospel. I like "BAD MOVIE BIBLE" the channel since he looks for diamonds in the rough, is critical of movies, looks for the good in it, and isn't destructively critical.
I think you should review this laptop not as it is right now, but how is it down the line when you start upgrading its components. Perhaps it’s best do a yearly review. Include the cost of just upgrading a part vs buying an entirely new laptop and see if it’s really cost saving.
This is perfect for my son when he starts college. He's not much for tinkering with computers, but I'm sure this should be easy enough for him to repair/maintain when needed. I don't think the aesthetics will bother the customer this laptop is meant for. Only hardcore computer builders are that picky. The price seems to include the conveniences this laptop will bring to the user (being able to repair their own computer), and to the parent (who no longer has to do the repairs👍🏽). I think this laptop has a purpose that may not be obvious, but I feel that if you were a technology minded parent or grandson, it might be easier to see why this computer is perfect.
This video is absolutely correct. It´s from the perspective of normal customers, not tech enthusiasts. Normal customers don´t give a fuck about upgradeability - they are afraid of doing anything regarding tech stuff to computers. And, of course, when they see this upgradeable and easy-to-repair laptop vs normal stuff which is much cheaper - they buy cheaper. The problem with you as viewers of this video is that you are tech enthusiasts, tinkerers, and such - you care about stuff Framework is about, but people in general don´t.
Same normal user would freak out when their laptop broke and run to the dealer and let them rip off their arm and kidney just to “repair”. It is counterintuitive how technological unliterate normal user is this day
Sorry, but this ain't it chief. This was never intended for to really compete with the other brand laptops. It's Modular. It's makes that more expensive. It's not just like common parts used by all other brands. It's meant for modularity so people can easily fix their laptop. And yeah, that's at the moment more expensive. The MacBook Pro M3 is more expensive. Yeah more optimized (Apple OS vs Windows), but we both can agree that if you MacBook is broken you kinda F'ed compared to Framework. (Btw, no I don't have a Framework)
I think a lot of people are defending the Framework laptop for what it can be rather than what it is. Austin is 100% right, it makes sense for most people to buy a new laptop every few years. Not everyone breaks parts of their laptop, and buy a new one every few years. Framework needs volume sales in order to get good pricing from manufacturers, but won’t get volume sales with this pricing. It’s a chicken and egg problem.
Kinda missed the point here Austin. The framework allows you to buy a replacement motherboard, and drop that straight into your existing chassis. You can already swap from Intel to AMD, and even upgrade from 11th gen to core Ultra bringing the overall lifetime cost WAY down. Then for a small cost you can buy a desktop case for your old board, and turn it into a NAS or lightweight desktop. It's a matter of time before a drop in Snapdragon board arrives around the $500 price point and completely blows the competition out the water in this space IMO.
This laptop was not made for people who want the bleeding edge of computing, It's made for people hoping to keep the machine for years. Intel's 12th and 13th gen mainboards are currently extremely discounted compared to their launch price and likewise after a few generations ryzen ai 300 mainboards will be discounted.
Also the DIY edition doesn't save you money if you buy ram and the ssd from framework themselves. You can buy third party ram from crucial for half the money.
Have you ever understood his point? The idea is that you’d save more money by buying a new laptop every couple of years, thereby staying at the bleeding edge of technology, instead of upgrading this Framework laptop.
sadly a majority of the public doesnt give a shit about longevity they only care about if it works
@rahulsawhney1279 the laptop he shows as comparison for price isn't even a fair comparison, it has less ram, less storage, a worse display, and it is on a $300 sale (it's normally $750) you aren't staying on the bleeding edge of computing and saving money buying a whole new laptop, you just aren't
@@rahulsawhney1279 and creating more ewaste
If people truly care about the environment above all else, EVs would be everywhere, single use plastic would be a thing of the past. At the end of the day, people care about if something works well, and whether it's cheap. This is neither.
It's for people who has money to throw at last gen tech, to experience disproportionate amount of suboptimal user experience / issues for the price, so that they can say there's something they believe in...while living with shopping regret on the inside.
I typically like your videos but the price comparison is completely unfair. The yoga you compared it to has a 1080p display instead of a 2k display. 8 GB of RAM instead of 16 GB of RAM. 512 GB SSD instead of 1 TB SSD. It does seem like Framework may be more expensive but compared to a laptop with comparable specs, it is only a couple hundred dollars more.
You're also SOL if the Yoga ever breaks down because it's one of the most unrepairable, inevitable e-waste computers you could possibly get
It literally says it is a 2k touchscreen and has a better CPU
its says 2k in the video, also you can buy 3 of these including additional ram to bring it to 16 GB for the cost of 1 basic framework model. the repairability is great unless something major blows and you have to spend 800$ on a new CPU for your 1500$ laptop.
Plus the modability
They are also currently the only laptop company (that I know of), that has a completely open source business model. Main board to firmware, even the expansion cards and chassis design. It's all open source for enthusiasts and tech-savvy business alike.
I feel like this review missed the mark on what Framework is really about. They're not trying to compete by pushing out new laptops every year with the latest tech. Instead, they’re focused on giving us a laptop that lasts-a device you can upgrade over time without breaking the bank.
In a world where replacing a screen on a $500 laptop can cost almost half of its value, or where a tiny issue with soldered components means tossing the whole laptop, Framework is a game-changer. It’s awesome to know you can have a laptop that you can tweak and upgrade as you need, rather than being stuck with whatever you bought.
There are really two types of laptop users: those who get a new one every 2-3 years and those who invest in something that’ll last. I’m definitely in the latter camp. I used a MacBook Pro from 2017 until 2022, and while it served me well, it became unusable due to battery issues. The cost to replace the battery was so high that buying a new laptop seemed like a better option. That’s where Framework comes in-if they can keep delivering reasonably priced upgrades, they might just be the future we’ve all been waiting for.
I wish the video had taken a closer look at how Framework is delivering on its promises. The only way they can compete with the big brands is if more people get on board, and negative reviews might scare off those who are curious about trying something new.
Yeah, but when you can buy 2 Lenovos for the price of 1 Framework. The cost of buying a whole new laptop is moot.
ya but 1200, no copy of windows, plus cost off time having to build it yourself so, still dont see who this
is for,
Lately, I've been buying laptops that are 4-5 years old in order to save money. I recently bought a 5 year old HP laptop in real good shape for like $400 that originally cost something like $2k-$4k brand new. I decided to go ahead and get a laptop that can properly run Windows 11 as I think the cost of those laptops will go up late next year when Windows 10 loses support and many people scramble to get a laptop that qualifies for Windows 11.
The only bad thing about buying a used laptop is I have to completely take it apart so I can clean every nook and cranny to remove any leftover grime from the previous owner. I also like to buy brand new fans and put those in as fans get gunked up and are a wear item that can get noisy over time. I also try and buy a brand new keyboard and install that as the keyboard usually contains the most gunk and wears out.
On that HP I was able to get a brand new topcase for like $40 from China, but the topcase that came on it was in pretty good shape and not all gunked up, but might as well replace it while it's torn apart.
One thing I hate is HP puts these sticky pieces of plastic sheets and foam all over the place. Like on the heatsink. And so if they get damaged, then nothing you can do about it as they don't ever sell a set of replacement plastic/foam pieces for your laptop.
BUT THEY DIDN'T DO THAT.
that is why i gave it a thumb down
The Problem with this Review...
1. He mentions the repairability but doesn't mention how easy it is to get parts for them instead of relying on 3rd party like his Yoga choice will be if he has to get a new screen.
2. He mentions the upgrade path to new parts but doesn't mention how you can also upgrade the whole board to a newer compatible board, without having to buy a WHOLE new laptop, and then being able to use the older board with DIY solutions.
3. He tries to pin Framework as a system that has to be sold to the open consumer market at BB and other establishments but fails to forget that this brand is mostly aimed to the audience who wants control on what can be done with their system now and in the future.
He is making lots of points to show that this is great for a laptop but hates the higher price tag, but just tries to push against it like it needs to step up.
I would rather side with the Framework group and allowing a few fans in their systems than the tiny single fan that HP tries to push on the masses.
Thanks Austin for giving Framework the spotlight it deserves instead of dragging it down because of Linus.
@@KwanyKon Framework is like RaspberryPi, it's a trade off many are willing to make. Higher upfront cost for better reliability and reliability is attractive to plenty of people.
I think the 1 and 2 points are what he meant when he said he doesnt like the price compared to Yoga one, it is choice between 450 + possible repair for let say 200-300 for screen and battery if the repair shop is expensive. It is still cheaper than buying framework with weaker spec. The repair + computer is still cheaper and that is why it's a problem
you can get the price down if you buy your own SSD and your own RAM, and you dont really need to buy windows these days, but everyday people will not do that, they will buy it as is
and I get its supposed to be cheaper to upgrade in the future but if people can buy new one for the same price of the upgrade, it kind of destroy the purpose of buying it for cheap upgrade in the future, if framework still exist in the 5 years.
Framework right now isn't for everyday people. It is for tech enthusiasts that like the goal of repairability and the goal of framework whats to accomplish. Thats why linus even invested, in hopes that when they are at least somewhat successful, other companies will see it and do the same framework does
IMO Austin was respectable, and wants framework to succeed, but the price is something he can't get over in the review. Either they lower the price, or they will let people get more option to personalize the laptop to them (for example engraving, or different colour of the lit)
@@fightkostkaI mean I followed framework from day one yes you're buying a 2000 dollar laptop that will cost 120 dollars every few years to upgrade and then the motherboard is also a desktop motherboard
I also heard nothing touching on the open source aspect. If Austin done some research instead of just looking at prices on the website, he would know that this company has open source main boards, CAD designs, and even open source firmware. I honestly think that justifies the price if there's a wider adoption, since people are bound to make custom parts and even support security updates well beyond Frameworks lifespan.
@@danielsterling3499 sadly price to entry is really important, and it is the main block many people have
most people can afford to pay only 500 usd on a computer, no matter how money saving it will be in the future, 2000 can be their whole salary.
Thats why series s and switch sold so well, 500 for console aka toy is hard to justify, but 200-300 can be reasonable
1 year framework user here.
It is expensive for the specs, but as soon as you need a repair or upgrade later down the line, you are cheaper/ better of with a framework. And i mean, it still a really nice laptop, i still love it and the keyboard is amazing.
And no it does not feel cheap.
Also the screen edge must be something with the new upgraded screen, because my ‘not upgraded’ screen is square and has no gap/bezel with the bezel. So i think that is the reason why it the bezel is still square, also for the new screen with round edge
The screen rounded corners on the new screen is caused by a repurposed design. Framework was pretty upfront with this when they were releasing the road map updates for it. They told us that they were working with a supplier to repurpose a screen design from someone Else. Honestly, why reinvent the wheel?
Dudes huffing copium cause he bought cheap garbage and brainwashed himself, lmao
@@soullegend5 have you tried it, or have you only seen Austin's review, who's admittedly the worst TH-camr to watch for this kind of stuff? 😂
You'd save a lot more money by buying a cheaper laptop upfront with comparable specs, selling it when it breaks, and then getting a new one instead of using the same framework laptop and repairing it. I'm all for repairability, but that's because repairing what you have saves you money. Unfortunatley, Framework throws that selling point out of the water
@@thunderarch5951austin is a paid chill!!! to every company that give him free stuff or money to show their products in a good way.....
If you're buying a Framework because you want a laptop...you don't understand Framework.
Also, the comments about Ridge are right. You're like "I can't justify buying a $1200 laptop that is only normal. Anyway, buy a $120 wallet because it's metal!"
I purchased a metal wallet from TEMU with 8€ and it's also magnetic 😂
@@rickbhattacharya2334 I made my own wallet that clasps and has a clear front on it, for like $10 and holds like 20 cards in the locked clasp part, being all metal means it's RFID proof, and I don't have to pull my ID out when I need to show it, except when buying guns. STILL need to get the ol' ECC card out for that.
You can't defend the Framwork, so you go after the Advertiser. Lol
@@LePedant I feel no need to defend framework. I just think if the reason you're buying a framework is because you just want a laptop, you've missed the point.
@@LePedant It's super easy. A lot of laptops after they die, can't be gutted and used as an external frankenstein desktop. Currently I have a dead Acer that I used for media consumption in my bedroom and nothing else. Recent Windows 10 update nuked that computer and won't let me boot. Couldn't even take the ssd out and read it on another MICROSOFT PC to salvage files, had to use my Linux PC to get the files. THOUGH, I can't use the Motherboard outside of the Laptop since it needs to detect the presence of a battery and display connected by its 40pin ribbon cable.
WHEREAS, Framework needs none of those requirements, meaning, when it becomes obsolete for heavier modern tasks, you still have a functioning motherboard you can use as an ULTRA SLIM desktop pc, they even provide 3D Printed files for making a case for it, with rails to slide in their USB C modules. Also Framework has 4 USB 4.0/Thunderbolt ports on them compared to most laptops 1, 2 on business laptops (for some odd reason, just not for gaming laptops). Also current state of APUs like the 7840U and 8840U are super capable of emulating up to Nintendo Switch. Meaning, you can create a nice sleek emulation box that you can shove into a homemade Arcade Cabinet without any issue.
Regardless of being an LTT fan, I would still be picking a Framework for my next laptop because of the ease of upgradability and repair compared to everyone else in the laptop market. You're paying for a premium obviously but it's worth it.
Same, waiting for it to be available in my country and saving up for it.
And they will upgrade it at some point, or the community can do that too. Like a metal case, another company could make a metal chassis. It’s so upgradable and customisable it’s worth it.
$1,300 for a laptop is nothing in the professional space. A latitude laptop can easily run $2,000. I view these as more of a laptop fleet design then something for your average everybody.
I personally have a 13 and a 16 that go everywhere with me at work and they see a beating on a daily basis. So I'm glad that I know I can buy a replacement part if my laptop falls off of a ladder while I'm positioning cameras or something of that nature.
That is a fair point cuz I bought myself a thinkpad second handed only to realise that when it was brand new for an i7-6600u you were getting around 2000 bucks is insane.
I agree, i love photography and love to travel light. Lenses and camera stuff weighs more then enough. I have a surface pro 9 for photoshop and lightroom for being on the road and when i just want to work easily on vacation. And i got to say i love that little tablet/laptop!
Yea but this is lower specs
@@hermanmunchther3082 honestly that isn't to important compared to how easily reparable it is this would do great for a business.
Is there any difference in build quality between the 13 and 16? I saw a review of the 16 that had a fair bit of flex in the keyboard/track pad and panel gaps.
As others have already mentioned, the point of this is buying a laptop and upgrading only components, rather than buying a whole new laptop when the 'latest and greatest' are available. The value is that it isn't a closed system, and you're no longer held back by glued and soldered components, which otherwise force you to purchase all new hardware.
It's like saying a desktop PC is bad because it's expensive, even though you can upgrade (or even just purchase) separate components to configure it yourself.
The only components you can't easily upgrade on a decent laptop is CPU, GPU, and Motherboard. The cost to replace those components will be more than just buying a new Laptop too. So, what are you even accomplishing? And before you say ewaste, I am not throwing my previous laptop in the dumpster. It works perfectly fine.
Agree with the premise that Framework laptops aren’t for everyday consumers, but think the video didn’t try to understand what customer / scenario might a Framework be a good option. For example:
- Most countries don’t get the crazy sales the US have, where you can get a well-built laptop like the Yoga 7 for US$500. They usually go for US$900-1000 up here in Canada (worse in other markets), so $1200 for a Framework doesn’t sound that outrageous at all.
- Many Framework customers, who are probably somewhat tech literate, aren’t buying the RAM, SSD, chargers, etc with Framework - but are instead getting them cheaper through other retailers when there’s a sale, getting them used, etc.
- As someone who helped with managing IT in a small business before, the fact that you can obtain Framework parts easily on their website is attractive for maintaining the company’s fleet of laptops. Other manufacturers just don’t make parts available except to corporate customers who have huge IT departments.
- In terms of customization, being able to customize the ports and the keyboard layout / language is hugely convenient. If you type in multiple languages, the only other manufacturer that offers alternative keyboard options is Apple.
- For an ultrabook, where you’re realistically doing office work or some light photo / video editing, having the latest processor doesn’t matter that much? 12th-14th Intel all share the same architecture with some minor spec bump, for example…
- Lastly, I really don’t get the comparison with custom keyboards. The customer who wants a complete laptop for $500 are probably buy $20 keyboards…not the insane custom keyboards this channel often features…
I did exactly that, I had between $900 to $1000 in mine, I had my own SSD and RAM. I also don't have that weird screen rounding thing like he showed, but I did not get the upgraded screen.
I couldn't agree more and I'm in the states. I was able to build out my 11th gen framework with parts that I salvaged from an old 6th or 7th gen. I upgraded as needed and flipped or donated the parts that I didn't need/want anymore. As a result I was able to build out my framework for under $1000. I'm looking to replace it with 13th gen and repurpose the old board so I can learn Linux.
That first point is very important. I just looked it up and that Yoga 7 laptop costs the equivalent of $1500 in my country. Although Framework doesn't ship to my country either...
How does it make sense to compare the Yoga with half the RAM, storage, and lower resolution screen to the Framework? When I priced out a Yoga with actually similar specs it is around $1100. I'd gladly pay the slight premium for the still better display and customization/upgradability.
Regarding customizability, their larger model allows you to add components to the keyboard tray, as well as adjust the position of the keyboard and track pad.
You can also add a GPU to it.
Didn’t want a Ridge wallet. Even less they’re trying to give a Cybertruck away. And also Austin it’s not that hard to be better engineered than a Tesla.
Ridge gave him a few tens of thousands to say that
@@ShockingPikachu you probably think it's only fine when LTT got a whole bunch of money for also making an ad about Ridge and the truck
@@niksn022 well atleast they make competent reviews , this guy runs a tech channel yet seems to know less than the average joe in the comments
@@tsu177 why cuz he doesn't like this overpriced turd laptop?
@@jamesbyrd3740 you clearly don't understand the importance of self-reparability and the money it saves you in the long term.
Is it me or did this video seem hostile or aggressive to Framework right from the get go?
Yeah. Idk why hes so aggressive?
it was 100% made hostile from the start
Maybe Linus Sebastian rejected him for a video team up. And Austin's got a case of jilted lover's syndrome.
If you ignore all the times he complimented it then yes
Yes.
A lot of times, I'm like why am I subbed to this guy.
A first gen xbox 360 is better engineered then a cybertruck
Lets not go crazy 😂
@@leeward6762lol
@@leeward6762 The 360 had fewer recalls and the fixes were better than Elmo's.
The cybertruck looks like graphics from Xbox 360 lol
@@Dragon_Chef_24xbox 360 had awesome gfx
Imma jump on the framework defense train here. I bought one back at the end of 2023 or so when preorders started. And honestly it’s been more than fine for all my tasks. I can code, do some light gaming (actually, pretty much anything the steam deck can do this can do also) swap out ssds for different osses (something I do since windows gets more battery life than Linux), and just about anything that any other laptop can. I think the thing Austin is losing sight of and not stressing enough is that you can UPGRADE the mobo he’s complaining about. With that said… I do think prices for the ryzen variant should go down. It has been a while. But then again, the new ones aren’t out. And also, you’re not going to be needing the latest and greatest all the time, especially on a laptop since most of the time, you wouldn’t be able to go hardcore with it anyway. It’s for when down the line, a new processor comes out and it makes a noticeable enough improvement that swapping it makes sense. And you can’t do that with anything that costs less than this laptop (or more if you consider the MacBook honestly).
I’m not gonna go and tell everyone to buy the framework laptop. But I’ll say that it’s definitely a better long term investment (assuming framework stays in business that long 🤞🏿), than anything else for now.
Can you boot off of the SSD module? That would be an awesome way to switch OSes. I miss the days of game cartridges
@@jackmillenYou can if you're using Linux, but the performance will obviously be worse than a standard SSD. Windows, on the other hand, doesn't like being booted off of SSDs
See IU think your final point is just misleading and wrong. Cool it's a nice idea but price to performance is not even close. Performance is not good at all for the price and "upgrading down the line" won't be much cheaper as you are replacing the most expensive parts anyway. It's a cool product but it's not there yet.
But how many people really upgrades a motherboard?
@@saulgoodman2018 Very few because it's very difficult to do. Enter framework
so a 1 y.o. Cpu is called „outdated“ 😅
Dang... my 5 year old ryzen 5 in my thinkpad must be on its last legs then lmao.
That laptop came in clutch during my uni days and ill bet its still more than useable even now lmao. Perceived obsolescence is so silly, because you wont see a massive difference between my cpu and a new one in daily tasks.
my 9th gen intel must be struggling to run windows
Yes, it's an outdated product to be sold in a new laptop.
Your tiny brain is confusing outdated with obsolete.
@@tim3172 You and Austin is the one with the tiny brain if you can not get the concept of " More expensive now but in 5 years you can upgrade to a newer processor with out spending over a $1000 for a new laptop.
@@azielaugust8349 The cost of that upgrade will be most of the cost of an entire new $1000 laptop if you want a new motherboard.
Tip - when you do videos reviewing sites selling refurbished tech, instead of buying multiple different items, buy 3-4 of the same item in different conditions to properly assess the quality control of the site.
Do you have a TH-cam channel , with his following ? Lol. I feel like he knows what he's doing at this point 🤦🏼
@@RickBrostekAnd? No matter how big you are good contructive critisism is always good. What OP commented is a pretty good idea and I hope Austin takes it to heart.
@@RickBrostek You don't need YT channel for that. You only need common sense. Sampling can't be done with just one product
@@TheBigAEC but you don't understand how understands the algorithm, and what gets views. He isn't making videos to check the quality of devices. Linus has done a video based on that with phones , but this a video on framework why even comment. It has 0 to do with this video lol
so every buyer of the refurbished site should buy 3-4 ? whats the purpose of tiering refurbished products then ? if i want to buy a iphone with description of "small scuffs, no visible damage", i would expect exactly that. otherwise, whats the difference between these websites and blind purchase on ebay ?
also, why is this even on this video ? its about framework laptop lol
I don't have an issue with a higher upfront cost, if I can just switch out a mobo/cpu in 4 years rather than buy a whole new laptop. It's the main reason I've not gotten a laptop for I'd say 12 years atleast when I was in early high school.
The cost of doing the upgrade is basically the price of a new laptop anyway which is why I ultimately decided not to get a framework. I believe in their mission and it's cool, but for an extra £100 above what they charge for a Ryzen 7 main board, nothing else, I got an oled 2 in 1 with a better CPU. It's cheaper to buy a new laptop than upgrade your existing one which sucks but that's the reality.
@@THEHEADOFTHEPACK Idk where you are from, but in Australia I can't get a new laptop for the price of just the mobo/cpu upgrade.
And the peace of mind that when something breaks, you dont have to pay such high repair costs
You can also throw that old motherboard in a case and have yourself a secondary mini pc which a lot of early framework buyers have done when upgrading, it makes that high price a little more acceptable
Best part? You can take that Mobo and transplant it into a 3D printed case and use it as a sudo desktop.
Captive screws. Screws that all use the same screwdriver. Little gap that appear when unscrewed to make it easier to remove...
That's really well thought out for repairability. Sure beats Apple's million different screws.
The fact there are cases for the mainboard if you ever upgrade and want to use your old board as a desktop/htpc... is also nice.
I think Austin totally miss the mark here. The laptop is expensive yes but it is not by much when you compare the entire specs with what is on the market. Framework is also a one time purchase that will last, unlike buying a new laptop every 5 years. Framework whole point is to make repair and upgrading to a new processor easier because your not buying a entire new laptop your just buying the processor.
I enjoy upgrading to the latest and greatest every 3-5 years. I would never buy a laptop and be stuck with it forever; as a techie that is not something that attracts me. For example, I upgraded my old 11th gen Intel for a Surface Laptop 7 with X Elite and it I excellent. I cannot imagine missing out on that for the sake of having a chassis that is boring and old for 10+ years.
@@andyH_England but you're getting the same old product that is like 5 to 10years old. The only thing different is the x elite processor. Now imagine instead of paying the $1,000 and something for the "new and innovated laptop" you instead pay half that with framework. That is what you are not understanding. Your upgrading and swapping out what matters in a laptop. You are probably the goof that buys the new phone because it is in a new color and offer no real upgrade and call yourself a techie
@@azielaugust8349 I am not concerned where you spend your money on or your beliefs, just do not preach about value or e-waste as it is untrue. Even after 5-years when I upgrade to the latest and greatest if I look after my older laptop I will have a secondary device as well as the spanking new and shiny one. You will upgrade the chip in five years paying £1000+ and still have only one laptop that looks dated and after you add faster storage and RAM your extra cost will be nearer £1500 which is poor value. But I understand that there is a mindset that believes in this and all I am saying is you are paying for your lifestyle choice and most of us will not.
@@andyH_EnglandIt's definitely not for everyone, tho I feel like many miss this and act like it's for no one when they miss the point.
I personally am fine with having 20 year old hardware has long has it works and can play new game(low graphics are fine for me), actually most the laptops I replaced was cause getting a new battery was more expensive 😞.
"There are some downsides" to a laptop I can repair myself on a flight at 5am in the morning in time to make a 9am meeting at my destination? The kind of downsides that mean I can (and have) upgraded it MULTIPLE times over the last three years while saving hundreds of dollars? Price comparison aside, I'm sorry, but you missed the ENTIRE point of this laptop. It is A LITERAL anti-MacBook.
I buy what I need especially an ultrabook for most users that do not need to upgrade regularly as their workflow is constant (different for gamers and professional users). And I have an M1 MB Pro 13 that is nearly four years old with zero issues and remains more capable than the latest from Framework, especially in efficiency. I think many Framework fans believe they still live in the 1980s where laptops breakdown. These days if you look after your laptop they will easily last 5+ years. I have a working Intel MB Pro 15 that is now 8+ years old and still runs well.
@@andyH_England you're in the minority. The problem isn't about a MacBook "running well" after 8 years. The problem is the complete and utter inability to upgrade an ultrabook form factor laptop (which the FW13 is) down the road 3-5 years from now when better components and newer hardware are available.
@@spdcrzy I do not care about upgrading, nor do most non-techies. My 80-year-old parents have laptops and would never even think about upgrading. When you ramble on about upgrading, you are speaking as if the average person cares-they don't, and Apple knows this. We see most OEMs now understanding that the new youth who have grown up with non-upgradeable tablets and phones do not care as much as children of the 20th century who got excited about upgrading.
@@andyH_England "We see most OEMs now understanding that the new youth who have grown up with non-upgradeable tablets and phones do not care as much as children of the 20th century who got excited about upgrading."
You saying this tells me you have no idea what you are talking about. we, the new generation is all about upgradability and repairability, we do not want to throw things away and buy a completely new laptop just for the sake of it. we do not want to throw away a perfectly solid piece of tech just because of a faulty non upgradable ram or a bad Key in a non-replaceable keyboard. there is a reason we have tonnes of MacBook and think pads in the refurbished market because enterprises have to upgrade it because of non-upgradability.
If you buy a 3-year-old MacBook, create a new account, and try to install Keynote, or pages, they are not supported. i learned that the hard way. Even simple essential programs are not supported in old MacBooks. its basic software. how stupid is that?
Please for the love of God, do not speak on behalf of the "new youth" or the younger generation, you have no clue what you are talking about. you are in the minority.
@@swapnilmankame If you use a laptop for three years and then upgrade, why do you think the old laptop is e-waste? You can sell it, pass it on to family, donate to charity or send to an OEM for recycling. People that advocate the Framework always use this poor excuse. It is nonsense. Even if you break it after three years it can easily be recycled.
The new Huawei XT costs $3000 and yet in non-upgradeable so why is it one rule for one $3000 device and one rule for a $1000 laptop? I understand the true reason for upgradeability, to buy a base model and save money upgrading. But you can do that with some OEMs already like Lenovo. It only costs $100 to upgrade from 16GB to 64GB for their X Elite laptops. Probably cheaper than Framework. Same with storage.
We have strayed off the topic, that Framework is expensive and niche and that their future in such a competitive market is high risk. Hopefully they will survive, but if you read most of the comments, people understand that it is a lifestyle choice rather than a sensible value choice. That's fine if Framework still exists in 3-5 years time.
It seems very sustainable compared to alot of things that are not upgradable or easily fixable. Sustainability isn't cheap initially
I have some issues with some takes in this video. First of all the DIY Edition ist NOT cheaper than the prebuilt one IF you buy all your parts from frameworks. This is not made clear on the website but the price that was shown in the video for the DIY Version does not inclued all the neccessary parts while the predbuild version does. If you get the DIY Version you should get your own RAM, storage and OS as Framework charges a significant premium for these. The price difference actually makes sense because they have to build all laptops for quality control. The DIY versions are actually disassembled after that so they require more work.
Also the value of these laptops is not in the specs but in the repairebility and upgradebility. If you want the most perfomance per dollar this is simply not the laptop for you. There are tons of options that offer these. But there is bearely any (if any at all) other laptops that do offer what the framework does. And there are a lot of people that value repairibility an upgradebility over pure performance. There are already some manufactures that implement more rapairible designs in their laptops but as far as i know none of them go as far as framework with the concept. Right now they still offer a very unique product.
I know that Austin did mention some of my points but his overall conclusion was a more negative than what i think framework deserves.
The base price is listed as cheaper for the DIY edition, meaning you do save money in the end, because it doesn't include the Windows license. If you go configure one of each identically right now on the website, you'll notice that there's a roughly $100 difference. I just did it to make sure I'm not making a total ass of myself, lol.
I stand with the rest of the points you made, though, as it's not about top-spec devices. It's about a sustainable product that respects the user as an individual and a community. Make a quality product with a purpose, and users will buy it. Plain and simple.
@@crystallakedoodso you telling me has long has I abandon windows it's cheaper?
Welp time to try running linux for the first time, heard mint is similar to windows will try that one.
@@EdgeLie I mean, Linux is always cheaper than Windows. But also loading your own copy of Windows and never activating it is the same cost as Linux... Free.
My big problem isn't with framework, but with chip manufacturers not allowing for upgradebility. Next Gen mobile AMD and Intel won't allow swappable RAM, same with Qualcomm. It's getting to a point where framework can't even operate like they want to.
They will allow CAMM modules, just not DIMM.
I wouldn't have as big a problem with unswappable RAM if their base line RAM is 16GB. RAM that is 16GB or higher is pretty much future proof for the foreseeable future.
They'll stick to older designs and chips then, as long as they're able to source them, I'd imagine. But wait until CAMM comes out, and they'll have no choice, assuming CAMM makes the impact it's supposed to.
The problem with framework. Price/performance relative to competitors. Could've been said in a short. But the repairability/upgradability tax seems sooooo worth it
What competitors? The ones that put the screws under the rubber feet so you feel discouraged to open them up? Apple charges more in exchange for giving you less options. With framework, even if you ignore the modularity and upgradability, the laptops are built with repairability in mind, a lot of the smaller parts like ribbon cables will have aftermarket replacements forever even if Framework dies.
Dell/ Asus/ anybody else who makes a decent laptop are not competitors with framework. This is honestly a novel market segment. No manufacturer before ever put a serious effort into making their laptop, repairable and upgradable. Many have tried in the past but they kill the projects before they gain any sort of traction.
@@joshua7551I do agree, but I’d say you can buy a decent enterprise laptop that has repairability and some upgradeability in mind, since enterprise laptop is bought by those who have either their own on-site technicians or the means to get some other technicians on-site.
The real magic is when Framework inevitably opens up the connections of the mainboard, so that we may get third-party mainboards that contain various different processors from x86 to ARM and maybe different RISC-V CPUs.
Buying a used laptop like an M2 MacBook Air for half the price is probably a better deal. It doesn't matter how repairable the Framework laptop is because buying it means that materials like lithium and cobalt have to be extracted. If you buy a used laptop, then no new materials have to be used to make it. Plus, most normal laptops like the MacBook Air are still somewhat repairable, and if right to repair legislation passes, then in 5 years a regular used laptop will be almost as repairable as the Framework for half the price.
@@domthecuber At that point, buying used anything is better. There's probably someone selling their used Framework. But you just needed an excuse to say "buy Apple" didn't you? The argument you're making is for the environment, there are plenty of reasons to want repairable tech other than for the environment, in fact, repairable tech is comparable to paper straws since switching to repairable tech wouldn't make a significant enough dent in humanity's carbon footprint. Now, if rich people stopped using private jets, then we can talk about steps to help the environment.
I think you made a handful of valid points (slightly older cpu) on not getting it; but that Lenovo you mentioned is ON SALE, half the ram, half the SSD, and a lower quality screen. The points you made could be informative but if you’re going to suggest a different option then at least make sure both computers are in the same class.
Also volume pricing is a thing that bigger OEMs can get components cheaper vs Framework and, as you clearly demonstrated, Best Buy can eat the cost of the computer by slashing the price in hopes you buy something else.
I think if you’re going to do an actual “the reason to not buy a computer “ you need to make sure you are presenting true facts to make your point and not taking short cuts to make that point.
Louis Rossman is hearing him talk about how self repair is bad and smashing his fist into the table.
Yeah, he literally said he'd rather just 'buy a new one'.
@@BriBCG Well luckily companies make it so much easier for you to do that, with the beauty of planned obsolesence.
@BriBCG at some point most tech youtubers lose touch with the price of tech without even realizing it. "Just buy a new one" isn't as easy for people with regular jobs who can't write every new laptop off as a business expense.
@@novelezra At least there are few cool companies like Samsung and Apple that make that "Planned Obsolesence" less of a pain with their generous trade in programs. I don't know how far that program extends, I know for Samsung and Apple it's watches, tablets, and phones. Don't know if it goes into their PCs.
@@tdata545 "Apple"
What.
The higher costs from framework are all about the economies of scale.
Framework is a small company and can only buy a small (compared to an HP or Lenovo) batch of parts. If you buy 5,000 brand new ryzen processors, AMD might sell them for, lets say $150 each. Hoewever, if you are a large company like HP, you may be buying 500,000 and AMD might be selling them for $75 each (all numbers made up since I'm not a parts buyer for a large company...). Now extrapolate that out to every single part in the laptop plus research, design, marketing, etc. and of course you'll be paying a premium for a smaller company's product. It comes down to is it worth it to you to support that company and their goals. Who knows maybe in the future Framework will be a powerhouse and be more price comparable to a big brand or maybe they go broke.... Only time will tell but they only get bigger by people seeing what the company is doing and supporting it.
And the custom keyboard market in the beginning was extremely expensive when it was first starting out, just because you finally got into the custom keyboard market when it's finally cheaper to actually get into it, doesn't negate the fact that it was once a very expensive hobby, and it can still be a very expensive hobby. Same as every new style of tech. P. S. You also get to reuse older framework boards and memory when just upgrading internals, just as you do when upgrading custom keyboard components on some boards.
Yep. Now you can buy aluminum keyboards for less than 100usd. Probably around 60 usd if you're living around Asia since most of them are from China
Framework may not be the cheapest, but at least you can do stuff like upgrade the RAM, replace the SSD/m.2; things that used to be common in laptops but aren't anymore. They're becoming the only reasonable choice left.
Its about as cheap as a startup lije framework can do it with the quality theyre offering. Its actually astounding its priced as it is with everything you can do to it
@@ShockingPikachu Definitely. And as they gain more popularity, those prices should start to go down with the increase in production. They're also reaching out to 3rd party companies to make accessories; which will help with the prices as well.
You can do that on Lenovo laptops.
I was fixing an iMac earlier and was thinking "Huh, the RAM in this is surprisingly easy to upgrade, and the screen is really convenient to replace"
I then remembered that the unit was from 2010. Oh what we have lost
All brands have some models left that do, but it's definitely a trend of removing the upgradability. The models left that are upgradable are as expensive as the Framework laptops; without the flexibility.
Its a boutique item. I picked up a Framework after my $1,300 laptop keyboard broke and they wanted to charge me $700 to fix it. I love my Framework and the fact that i can upgrade when i want and repair everything is a great incentive. "For the price you could buy a new laptop every coupe of year" so you're missing the point of not contributing to ewaste....got it. Rich guy not understanding why it costs more than the mass produced laptops. Why do those super expensive keyboards you love so much cost so much more than the mass produced keyboard only costs $15. Wouldnt you consider that a waste of money?
I think the best part is if you upgrade the laptop mobo, you can put the old one in an enclosure and have a super efficient little desktop computer box. Like they have solutions for the "what if i upgrade" question. Put the guts in a case and you have a small PC.
You didn't simply go on ebay and type in the laptop model + keyboard?
They're between $20-50 online and an easy to find repair manual will show you how.
Congrats(?) on wasting money and telling people you're helpless?
Does Framework ever upgrade the design of the laptop so they can, say, do a better cooling design or layout? Or do they just run the same design over and over so you can upgrade parts more easily? I could see maybe have a design for 5 years, and then upgrade it with a better internal design and run that for say 5 years, but the parts may not be compatible with prior versions due to changes in an improved design layout.
@@colt5189 I mean it's a framework. You're free to drill holes and add pipes and fans if you wanna
When I bought my laptop, it came with, 16GB RAM, 500gb SSD, glossy screen and 11th Gen i5. Over the last 3 years, I've installed a Matte screen, 64GB of Ram, 1 TB, and the best part, installed the 12th Gen i7 board. Not to mention being able to hot swap the expansion cards as needed.
What have you done with the old parts?
@@xBinyWolf This question confuses me. What would YOU do with old pc parts? It's the same concept.
@@xBinyWolf I got the cooler master. I plan to hook it up to my TV
@@J35SE ok so you repourposed it, it is nice but not something you can't do with an ordinary laptop.
And how much did all of the upgrades cost?
I hear you Austin but I think playing the long game is more of the spirit of what Framework is trying to do here. I don't disagree with most of your points that you made but the question in the end is what one values more in the now and the future and what compromises they are willing to make for the benefits that Framework has to offer. There is no wrong answer here. I for one I'm watching them closely when it's time for my next machine.
Is there some beef between you and Linus😂
The laptop is made for people who don't want to spend 1300 dollars to get a new laptop ever other year... the purpose is you can upgrade to a new motherboard combo in a few years and just a simple swap. Also, you need to account for the overall shell needs to accommodate two different boards and be flexible enough for future upgrades so it takes time to make that custom board, test, and get just right.
I have a MacBook from 2011 and it still works fine lol
Maybe some of the comparisons make sense for US but try and find a laptop for 500 in the EU with similar specs lol, you’ll get a plastic laptop and 8gb and 256ssd 😅
Definitely like everyone is saying, he's missing the mark. If anything, the price point is a little higher at the start, but the longevity is the main selling point. Oh it's time for a new processor, just replace the processor and motherboard components, and not have to buy a whole new laptop again. That's the point of this laptop, is to replace what you need as you need it instead of buying a new laptop.
the price isnt an issue for people switching from mac - i got someone who was a mac user for over a decade to switch to this
also, it pays for itself in upgradability...
Acting like the framework is somehow bad for not having an unreleased cpu is wild...the hate is strong with this one.
At times it did feel like he was ready to hate or critique the thing.
He is not wrong
Framework is known about 1 generation/release slower compared to newest model selling on shelf
Hx370 compare to 7000 series which is their current listing（8000 is about the same so we skipped that part）
Core ultra 100 been launched and selling so long , I just received my batch1 core ultra last month 😂
Framework never on the top of performance as they can't get good deals and exclusives like bigger brand . Plus their modular design cost space , lots of space .
They can't fit a large PCB or large cooler for more performance headroom.
But I bought mine because I know what I wanted 😊
@@frankwong9486The new CPUs will require soldered in memory ICs so they will have to figure out how to do that.
It will take some more time. I'm waiting for mine, I don't care if the CPU is 1year old. I'm on a 2nd gen Intel CPU with 2GB of ram at the moment....
@@tuttocrafting I think it was not technical issue but more like too much sku or need more bargain power to get good deal from AMD or intel, memory onboard isn't that hard for the industry
for AMD 300 series they can running on sodimm or memory on board , the sodimm slot have enough space to replace with lpddr5 but they are too far for highspeed lpddr5 which means redesign of new PCB plus they have to give up some modular score of using lpddr on board (not replaceable by user)
Intel core 200: memory on package , not on mainboard and you purchase the whole thing from Intel .also need PCB redesign ,but I am sure Intel will have document or guidelines for that
maybe framework13 with core 200 can free up those sodimm slot space for extra nvme slot ?
@@tuttocrafting dang idk how you are managing with a system that old but respect my man
"The only thing better engineered than this is a Ridge wallet."
Ah, so Ridge wallet will only _partially_ sever your fingers if you close it carelessly
Display alone vs Lenovo yoga is a big upgrade n a long term investment
Let's say it like this, if some people value repairability, modularity and opensource, they would pay anything for the price. Just like apple people, they would pay anything just to be in the ecosystem jusg because they value it more than the norms. So I don't think anything is overpriced if there isn't a A to A comparison, in the end it's just up to people to value how much are these features to them. What Austin said was from a casual user perspective, and most of the points are valid from it.
You had the same take with the Ayaneo vs Steam Deck until Jared pushed back and gave you the comparison of, yeah, I could buy a Honda Civic, but I could also get a Ferrari, and then after that you all of a sudden have been all Ayaneo regardless of price. I'm sensing you'll see the higher upfront cost to better usability and upgradability and repair cost in the future. You really need to think more about just the money in the beginning. Which is funny since you scam yourself out of a lot of it on purpose frequently yet it's too much when it's not for a scam. Come on man.
Well those scam videos he does, he knows he can 1) Write it off on taxes 2) counts on YT paying him back through monitization, 3) is usually paid for by the site he's buying from or through sponsor spots. So it's not like his money.
@tdata545 You're completely right; all that cash that Austin gives to the scam services that he makes videos about all the time isn't his money.
It's the scammer's money now :)
@@tdata545 That's the sarcastic part of my response since I know that and him being pretty well off money-wise, yet he seems to overtly focus on just price for a lot of things without thinking things completely through. Price vs cost are different beasts. High quality tools may be a higher price but overall cost of not needing to replace everything when upgrading down the line negates a lot. And you have older boards that can be used on other things, in the case of framework upgrades down the line.
God why is everybody in love with framework??? It's cool but that upfront cost is a huge issue. If it was kind of close I get it but it's not. hell I constantly find better laptops online for half of the price of this thing. Also don't ignore those prices wehne upgrading the framework they are not that cheap.
@@ootheboss9307 1) they're literally the ONLY game in town doing what they do. 2) It's not we're in love with them, we just don't like FAKE NERDS in oversized glasses, s hit ting on them for no real reason and without provocation. 3) A lot of us tech minded people are also tinkerers meaning, we like to be able to repair our gadgets ourselves. Right to Repair.
18:58 omg, the whole point is that people shouldn't "just buy a new one", when performance is not what you want anymore, the screen, the body, the keyboard etc. might still be perfectly adequate and in working condition, why throw them in the trash....
the only real concern is if framework will be around, but if everyone chickens out because of that, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
That the aftermarket use of motherboard outside of the chassis and that this is a higher initial cost for half price upgrades later, aims at a much more tech audience.
I own one and I think it’s pretty sleek and premium feeling. I had a plastic gaming laptop before that was only a little less money and it felt like crap compared to the framework. Overall, I love mine and despite the price, think it is a worthwhile investment.
I'm not a Framework owner, but even I didn't feel like this review misses the point of this laptop.
Well unfortunately I doubt many people see their is enough point to it to spend so much money on a subpar device.
True. And they didn't touch on the things that are actually annoying with the frame work 13.
Like its insufficient cooling. Which was particularly bad on the early AMD pre built models that had bad thermal paste application.
So you had to open it up, and reapply the thermal paste yourself just to avoid crashes and serious throttling.
To come to a middle ground in the discourse here, as a framework user since they're first main board, this review really missed an opportunity here. I love my framework but it definitely does have problems that I'd like to see someone talk about. That said this review really missed the mark there. I took my laptop from a 4 core 11th gen i5 to a ryzen 7 7840u while I got to keep using the rest of the machine that I still liked. I was able to turn that old main board into a server and use my thin and light laptop to play triple a games at friends houses months after it struggled with some indie stuff. It's not the cheapest thing out there but I'd rather pay more for a system that is not only meant to last, but is also coming from a company with a strong environmental focus. All of the packaging is recyclable. Not getting a brand new laptop every few years means less batteries that I have to take care of to get new tech. Yes the fans are annoying and I would like to see them improved. I'd love to see a touch screen option come out, and it's a bit annoying how long it can take for upgrades to come out, but to me it's worth it for a one of a kind laptop that I feel good about buying, using, and not having to worry about. The hinges on my laptop got loose over time, and for $20 and 15 minutes of my time that is fixed, which you really can't do with any other laptop out there. Framework has problems, but the pros outweigh the cons to their target audience, so next time just please try and see it from our perspective.
Fun fact: The DIY option is mainly cheaper because it doesn't include the Microsoft licence. For Framework the DIY version is actually more expensive, because the fully build the laptop, test it then dissasemble it again for shipping.
I keep thinking about this review. I own a framework laptop 13 and though I can't fully disagree with the video, the comparison feels a bit weird. I'm not a windows user either so I saved money by going the DIY route. All in All my Framework 13 would cost $1249 before tax, that's a build with a Ryzen 5 processor/ 32GB of DDR5/ 2TB SSD/ 120hz 2.8K screen. So when I look at what they're comparing it to I'm just thinking, but my laptop has 4X the memory and 4X the storage, plus the piece of mind that I can buy replacement parts easily. Don't get me wrong Framework laptops are priced more expensive than the competition. The gap starts to close a bit when you realize I chose these parts for a reason, and if I'm buying that Lenovo Yoga 7 I'm going to have to spend additional money to upgrade it.
Should you buy a fully customisable Laptop or get a MacBook that you can’t upgrade anything or have to pay extra to upgrade it ?
I bought the 202 MacBook Air. But I needed the extra core, 16gb of RAM, and a 1TB SSD. So instead of $899, it was $1675 after tax. Perhaps how Framework charges for their upgrades aren't so bad after all.
So my friend bought Framework because System76 was more expensive. He is a Linux user and like to have that ability to control and repair his software and hardware. He said the hardware with Framework, may be a generation behind but that's ideal for the Linux kernel.
While I agree its pricey for what you get you have to factor in what you can do with this when you upgrade your laptop, the internals can be taken out of the case and slotted into a case to make into a secondary pc worth a few hundred dollars you cant do that with most mainstream laptops easily.
I'm pretty sure Framework offers guides on how to take the old motherboard and turn it into a mini-deskptop PC while even offering free SLI files to make your own case for them that has the USB C rails so you can still use Framework official USB C add-on modules. And for most people the U line by Ryzen is getting to the point that it's pretty good for light and heavy duty tasks like 4k video editing without a dedicated GPU. So 90% of people can find uses for it, upgrade the internals, pawn off the old internals on family members that just want a Facebook and Word Processing Machine that can do light gaming as well.
While I have FL13 sitting right next to me, I feel like ability to upgrade is not the strongest argument to make. I mean it's cool but feels not competitive price wise to justify it as a factor. However, ability to get schematics to replace $1~5 SMC instead of whole board and having "care" built in IS a valid point.
@@bbbo85 I think they're offering it as cheap as they can, and buying secondhand is encouraged on their site.
It seems like they're trying to make each board generation cheaper than the last. Whether they succeed is another story, but when they say they're trying, I believe them.
The Ryzen 8640U is the same CPU than 7640U. The 8 and 7 at the start of the model are just the year and does not mean anything only the 6 and the 4 in the middle mean something.
The Yoga probably have soldered RAM, so you would have stay with 8GB for ever on it.
Most of the people buyin the DIY, are buying the Storage and RAM somewhere else.
P.S. I own a older 10y old Levono Yoga 2 13 that came with 4GB without mentioning that was soldered...
i agree with the critical comments from people that have more energy to type out their thougts than me, so i'll just say this- this review ain't it, chief
So many bad arguments. Sure framework is a bit expensive, however you're buying it with the guarantee that you'll always be able to repair it if you ever need to. As someone who's been using a PC from 2009, why throw away products that work
Download the video before it is taken down. Future apology ukulele video incoming
Before I decided to preorder a Framework laptop, I checked other options to see how much more the Framework would cost. And the difference is by no means as big as this guy tries very hard to make it look. Obviously the specs in his comparison are way off, so that doesn’t make sense in the first place. I compared the Framework with my specs (Ultra 5, 16 GB, 1 TB) to Lenovos ThinkPad, some laptops from Dell and Apples MacBook Air. The price difference was not big at all and Framework was not even more expensive in every scenario.
As others have stated before, people who consider a Framework laptop won’t settle for a cheaper laptop instead if it means that they have to give up repairability and environmental benefits completely.
If the focus of this video was supposed to be about price, then why not put some more effort into finding alternatives that are actually comparable. The type of processor, the power delivery, SSD and RAM speed can influence the overall performance even if the specs look similar at first glance.
That being said, I believe there are genuine alternatives out there since I read the word “repairability” more often recently in marketing material of Lenovo and Dell for example.
Bought my 11th gen Framework and just upgraded it to Ryzen. Such an amazing computer
The amount of lenovo laptops i see come through our workshop (more than any other brand for a hardware fault i might add), and the absolute pain in the ass those things are to repair, the framework approach is still the better a option even with the higher price
I would buy this and just put linux on it cause windows sucks. Btw Austin your hating on frame works because there expensive, you will also recommend apple mac books what are just as expensive if not more.
I don't majorly disagree with anything that Austin brings up here (and I own a framework laptop), except for maybe one thing. I think to review this laptop price and spec wise against other laptops so flatly does a major injustice to the purpose and motivation behind framework. I think it misses the idea that this laptop allows for users to take back their rights to do what they want with their computers. If we review this from just a regular laptop review perspective, then yeah there is going to be better laptops for a better price. Go and buy your absolutely un-repairable dell xps laptop. But as long as we do that, we just continue to pay money to the companies who continue to prove that we dont actually own anything anymore. I at least feel like with Framework, I am helping to push the cause forward towards a world with better repairability and sustainability.
Expansion bays are USB-C, if I’m correct. So you could plug the cable into the port without an adapter (USB-C adapters are cheap, because it’s just some cables, no electronics).
True but specifically thunderbolt
@@bobbob1278 also on an AMD platform? Nowadays we have USB4, but these ports have existed for several years now.
@@a.j.haverkamp4023 AMD is still USB4. But yes they are all usb C ports without the Expansion Cards
I don't think the people buying this are going to care about having the latest hardware. If they're buying a repairable laptop, they're planning on having it for the long haul. Components that are a year old really aren't bad. I'm using a PC with an i7 8700k and a RX 5700xt. It still runs even the newest games on mid-high(very few ultra) settings, so I don't see a need to upgrade yet. I feel that is the kind of people the laptop is targeting.
If this was some random item on mystery Tech. He would have been singing the praise to the end of the video
Ok so, I am not one to comment often but I feel your comparison to the Lenovo to be way off, for several reasons, and it does Framework a great disservice.
And as someone that has been looking in the farthest corners for a laptop that suits me and my needs, I have looked at this Lenovo already, and the specs are horribly misleading on the product page.
The Lenovo you showed had the following specs (model: 83DK000DUS, Model number shown at 16:54)
- Ryzen 5 8640HS (a little bit quicker than the Ryzen 5 7640U, sure)
- 8GB of completely non-upgradeable RAM (Yes, I double-checked, you need to order enough when you buy it, Lenovo explicitly lists it as Soldered LPDDR5)
- a 512GB SSD (likely a cheaper offering than those from Framework, which are WD Black model drives, the SN770 or SN850X)
- a "2k" display, bonus being touch (Lenovo lists it as a 1920x1200 300nit 60Hz IPS panel, which is NOT even close to the 2.8k 2880x1920 500nit 120HZ display you got on the Framework)
- The Lenovo is a 2-in-1 model which IS a bonus, sure
- You compared the Lenovo at its sale price, of $450, which it is no longer on sale and is $750
So, a better comparison would be an HP Pavilion Plus 14Z-EY100 with the 1TB upgrade, which has an MSRP of $1120 for the Ryzen 5 with 16GB of RAM and a 2560x1600 120hz IPS 300nit display or $1260 for the Ryzen 7 with 16GB of RAM and the 2880x1800 120hz 400-500nit OLED display, I am sure there are other similar comparisons, but it is one I have found during my searching.
I love the content Austin but please make sure your due diligence is done for something like this, as the Framework and Lenovo are in completely different categories (a higher end version of the same Lenovo model would make a better comparison instead). I feel very as though the view taken here was very skewed to which I can say I am very disappointed, but I still look forward to future videos.
No mention of being able to upgrade the main board in the future and use the current board in a standalone casing? This is a huge thing that Framework has over generic brands.
I'd say actual spec comparable laptops cost around $300 less, which I consider that the cost of "Apple care" or the likes. This was the reason why people were pointing out that it was "cheap" considering engineering and the level of scalability they were working with.
I bought the laptop knowing full well I'll be buying whole another framework laptop if I wanted to upgrade, but piece of mind that they will send repairshops schemetic (with NDA signed) and not cockblock parts is refreshingly...not "Megacorpsie".
Even for thinkpads.
I’ll be honest, for the upgradability, I would still do it, especially when it comes to the Framework 16. The ability to swap and upgrade your graphics card and any other basic components is a huge selling point for me.
Especially since that Graphics Card slot is not 63Gb/s at most like Occulink or 40Gb/s like Thunderbolt, it's a lot faster than that.
The other thing with framework is when you've upgraded the components, you can sell or even better buy a kit to make a media PC or any other 2nd use lower tier pc to continue it's life. makes e-waste much much further down the line than a regular laptop.
So yes, maybe pay a Premium today, but benefit in the future (cheaper to upgrade, and reuse the parts for secondary devices) double bubble.
The point of framework flew so far over Austin's head.
Videos like this is why this channel is D tier
I disagree, I think he voiced his opinion pretty clearly. Price is definitely a concern for most people in this economy and on top of that not getting the latest tech is also a big oof. Ofc you will have Framework fanboys who cant fathom that people have different priorities, just like the Linux nerds lol
Saying 5.5M subs is D tier is diabolical, to say the least.
@@evilleader1991I feel like he did miss a point, and many framework users aren't really saying why the price is "fine".
I don't own one but have looked into it this is my opinion.
This is not for people who only want the latest technology, only rich people can afford to upgrade it every time.
BUT!! I must say that usually something else in my computer breaks before the hardware lacks behind, and those upgrades are considerably cheaper.
I would only upgrade once the things you want to do with it become hard with it's current power, but it can be cheaply maintained until it reaches that point.
If you want bleeding edge, this will be a loss of money, if you are fine with being behind but want to keep one usable this might be cheaper.
I like how nobody in the replies even considers that electronics can develop faults and stop working over time. And portable electronics do so more because they are portable and people are either careless or clumsy. Accidents happen, you can spill water, drop the laptop, sit on and have you dog take a chew on it. Then goodluck getting your cheap laptop repaired.
There are dozens of hardware repair youtuber out there that show how minor hardware faults such as a 2¢ smd cap can completely cause the laptop to not boot and trash the whole laptop because the manufacturers refuses to provide any sort of spare parts, guides let alone schematics for their boards.
No one bothers to point out the e-waste it would generate in buying "3 laptops for 1 framework".
That's what framework is doing out here, they're not just making a modular repairable laptop they're actively trying you to not make more e-waste.
Materials like copper and aluminum are having their prices sky rocket in the last couple of years which is why we no longer see aluminum backs in smartphones now. It's either glass or plastic.
If you think of framework as any other laptop then yes it is more expensive, however when it comes time to upgrade and you can just buy the mainboard for $500 instead of dropping $1200 on a new laptop the value starts to show in spades. Now the real question is how long will they be able to support that? If you could get 3 upgrade cycles out of your base investment then you're clearly in money savings
Dude you can buy same spec for 30-40% less right now and use that saved money to purchase new laptop later. Also you can sell old laptop to recoup more money. Framework is all about hype.
The Lenovo Yoga was cheaper that $500 though. Why buy a motherboard for $500, when you can buy an entire laptop for $450?
I have to criticize Austin and the rest of the Techtubers out there for their outlandish expectations of Framework. I mean you want the laptop to be the same quality, performance and style as the other laptops with the same price, but still want repairability & modularity? This is not even mentioning the significantly smaller economies of scale considering consumers will not be buying new keyboards, webcams, chassis, etc if their laptops simply need a new battery?
Listen, this is complete honesty for me.
Austin Evan’s = entertainment
Linus tech = entertainment and facts
Jays2cents = facts and entertainment
Gamersnexus = Straight facts.
That’s how I view these channels and how I get my information. And I love them all for those different reasons.
the only facts there is Gamers nexus. The other ones are basically clown tech for entertainment
Except Austin hasn't been entertaining in a while. "Is 'X' a scam site, video 1,020". BOO... His post 1990 birth age is showing. I'm finding that 1990+ YTers are the most annoying and entitled. Like mommy and daddy bought them a yt channel and kept funding them until they could stand on their own, thus not learning the value of money, or end user repairability. "What, you don't get free laptops 20x a year from companies like me? Well, I guess that's a you problem." It's an arrogance that comes from ignorance and not being told "no" enough as a child.
@@NeptuneSega linus offers good information too, but in a more lighthearted kind of a video u can watch while on the couch or something
I can see where he is coming from regarding the price, I looked into one and for the spec you’re getting for the price I agree it is expensive, but the huge plus is the repair-ability, upgrade-ability and configuration of the laptop. But at the end of the day the only thing that has stopped me ordering one is a) the price, b) the spec of the CPU. I don’t want to spend this sort of money and then find out that after a windows update it is starting to run slow. It’s probably great for an IT dept who manages the laptops and PC’s the company and staff use. But the idea behind framework is a fantastic one and I take my hat off to them.
the takeaway is that framework should lose like 75% of earnings for the sake of giving customers a better price for the sin of being new and trying new ideas, gotcha
the other takeaway is : *if Austin goes missing in the next 24 hours you know it
was linus or someone at LTT 😂*
@@BaileyMagikz oh absolutely, only he would be "smart" enough to badmouth framework with the ltt colors
I’d happily pay more for upgradable and configurable laptop.
My 2017 xps13, apart from battery, is working completely fine but 8gb of ram is too little now. New xps 13 (comparable spec) would cost me around $3000 (yes, 3rd world country “hi end tech tax” is high).
Do you see the issue here? What if my old laptop is serviceable?
“That’s just a MacBook keyboard.” Hurts me, just because it is silver and black, it could feel completely different. Chicklet style keyboards have been around for 15 ish years now
If it ain't broke, why fix it? Another thing that needs to be considered is logistics. Framework can't walk up to a keyboard OEM and say "I need a keyboard that will break when a speck of dust gets in the membrane" and get the product. They don't have the money or size to do that. What they can do, and you see this with the curved screen, is they assess what is currently out on the market and choose the best with what's available. If I remember correctly, the rounded corner screen is actually from the same OEM Microsoft is using for Surfaces.
@@OmonarcAnd I'm sure Austin would be TOTALLY fine with the 120hz upgrade costing $500+ in that case, seeing that Framework would have to foot an insanely high bill just to get rid of the rounded corners.
@@BigTylt There's also the fact that Framework open sources all of their designs so any OEM can make a drop-in replacement for a Framework laptop if they want to. I've half considered trying to round up some funding to get an OEM to make some e-ink displays for Framework laptops.
When I saw Linus reviewing these, I thought, well, okay, a bit expensive, but it’s a cool idea! I have to say, your orange highlights on it look great! Still a bit expensive, but yeah.
Surprisingly bad take from a tech channel. F repairability I guess.
Apple charging $200 for 8GB of ram, seems reasonable compared to charging $280 to go from a Ryzen 5 to a Ryzen 7.
Linus will be unpleased with this video.
These type of review attempts are the reason why Austin should stick to Mystery Tech.
How many laptops have bezels that are magnetic, easily replaceable keyboards.. That's just the beginning.
You can swap the whole motherboard for a new gen, so you get your upgrade with just a mobo/cpu swap, the screen gets reused, the case, the e-waste is massively reduced. Oh and then you can put that old mobo /cpu into a desktop case (buy or 3D print) to continue its life. It's not DOA after an upgrade.
Hell, I had a hinge/ case break on an Asus, I could source the part from Ali-express for almost half of what I paid for my $400 laptop. Framework you can buy OEM parts direct, not from rando marketplace sellers on fleabay, or amazon. That's Huge!
the community has already made 3d printed parts for framework, and its open for community mods. yes older laptops have other stuff. but they cant be upgraded with the cpu, they cant be added a gpu on the 16 inch version. framework is ideal for longevity and some parts are better for value. but you dont just buy this for value, you buy it for the repair status and the ease of putting it together and taking it apart. this is the first dislike on an austin video i have ever done in about 5 years of watching his content if light watching counts its to the 7-8 year mark.
I can keep using my old Laptop or give it away or sell it. There is no ewaste reduction.
12:07 thats normal on desktop pcs aswell, especially amd ones took forever. the 8000 series amd that framework doesnt have is just the 7000 series with "ai".
This video is a culmination of every issue I have with Austin's reviews. Please try harder to understand the product and the market it inhabits before you make a review about something and lambaste it for non-existent issues or issues that are there but have trade-offs that make them extremely worth it.
A lot of the 'ecosystem' will come from 3rd parties and private users, that's not necessarily something that they have to carry on their own. And they do provide all the technical drawings to make it as easy as possible to manufacture custom parts for it
For environmental reasons, I would prefer to upgrade my framework laptop than buying a cheap laptop twice!
I think you can’t compare a laptop customization options to a custom keyboard, cause for example the keys in laptop keyboard can’t be replaced by the end user as easily. Also expecting them to make customization options available, which maybe some will use and some don’t, might bring the cost for everyone up, cause they need to get the invested money back. I’m not saying they shouldn’t, but there are always costs associated with it.
Also as said, framework is small and doesn’t have the power to control the market and costs as much, then wanting from them to make the laptops cheaper…. Idk if that would work, cause they also need to grow to make stuff cheaper and faster.
Also you reviewed it as a person that wants the newest hardware and doesn’t care about the upgrade ability… that’s not their target audience, why not factor that in?
You know, it's kind of irritating that Austin is SO critical of an actual good product such as the Framework Laptop, but then has nothing bad to say about absolute shite products that he is paid to make a video about...it takes away any and all credibility Austin has. HUGE disappointment. I guess there is a reason why I skip most videos on this channel now, most likely going to unsubscribe in the future.
Like it seems he's intentionally failing to understand the point of the laptop. Its not for value, its to give the end user the ability to actually DO stuff with their laptop. If other companies offered half the ability to do what framework can, they'd charge way more
Wait, you don't want to watch the thousandth; "I bought a bunch of shit from supposedly sketchy site, that I'll just throw out and create waste out of;" videos? WEIRD. At least when Great Scott does his Aliexpress videos, he goes into it with INTENTIONS of buying interesting and hopefully useful products. Mr Whostheboss even has a better, "Buy a bunch of crap" videos. Austin reminds me of TylerTube, a guy who just buys a bunch of stuff, doesn't understand 90% of the stuff, has such a sheltered upbringing that he can't even begin to put himself in other people's shoes, and thus thinks his opinion is gospel. I like "BAD MOVIE BIBLE" the channel since he looks for diamonds in the rough, is critical of movies, looks for the good in it, and isn't destructively critical.
he doesn't have any credibility to begin with, he just mentions surface level things in every video and consistently gets key facts wrong in videos
I think you should review this laptop not as it is right now, but how is it down the line when you start upgrading its components. Perhaps it’s best do a yearly review. Include the cost of just upgrading a part vs buying an entirely new laptop and see if it’s really cost saving.
Not gonna lie, this video was pretty trash. About as trashy as my segway, to the "ridge wallet giving away a Cybertruck" ad for this video!
This is perfect for my son when he starts college. He's not much for tinkering with computers, but I'm sure this should be easy enough for him to repair/maintain when needed. I don't think the aesthetics will bother the customer this laptop is meant for. Only hardcore computer builders are that picky. The price seems to include the conveniences this laptop will bring to the user (being able to repair their own computer), and to the parent (who no longer has to do the repairs👍🏽). I think this laptop has a purpose that may not be obvious, but I feel that if you were a technology minded parent or grandson, it might be easier to see why this computer is perfect.
This video is absolutely correct. It´s from the perspective of normal customers, not tech enthusiasts. Normal customers don´t give a fuck about upgradeability - they are afraid of doing anything regarding tech stuff to computers. And, of course, when they see this upgradeable and easy-to-repair laptop vs normal stuff which is much cheaper - they buy cheaper. The problem with you as viewers of this video is that you are tech enthusiasts, tinkerers, and such - you care about stuff Framework is about, but people in general don´t.
Same normal user would freak out when their laptop broke and run to the dealer and let them rip off their arm and kidney just to “repair”.
It is counterintuitive how technological unliterate normal user is this day
Sorry, but this ain't it chief. This was never intended for to really compete with the other brand laptops. It's Modular. It's makes that more expensive. It's not just like common parts used by all other brands. It's meant for modularity so people can easily fix their laptop. And yeah, that's at the moment more expensive. The MacBook Pro M3 is more expensive. Yeah more optimized (Apple OS vs Windows), but we both can agree that if you MacBook is broken you kinda F'ed compared to Framework. (Btw, no I don't have a Framework)
I think a lot of people are defending the Framework laptop for what it can be rather than what it is. Austin is 100% right, it makes sense for most people to buy a new laptop every few years. Not everyone breaks parts of their laptop, and buy a new one every few years.
Framework needs volume sales in order to get good pricing from manufacturers, but won’t get volume sales with this pricing. It’s a chicken and egg problem.
Kinda missed the point here Austin. The framework allows you to buy a replacement motherboard, and drop that straight into your existing chassis. You can already swap from Intel to AMD, and even upgrade from 11th gen to core Ultra bringing the overall lifetime cost WAY down. Then for a small cost you can buy a desktop case for your old board, and turn it into a NAS or lightweight desktop.
It's a matter of time before a drop in Snapdragon board arrives around the $500 price point and completely blows the competition out the water in this space IMO.