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V-Force 3 Reeds 2,000 Mile Inspection. Myths vs Reality. Ski-Doo 600 H.O. E-Tec
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ส.ค. 2024
- V-Force 3 inspection after 3 years and 2000 miles of heavy use.
Ski-Doo 600 H.O. E-tec. Side-by-side with the new V-Force 3R and stock OEM reeds.
I love this reed on this engine. It makes the engine rev up both quicker and faster (less input delay and gets to peak RPM more quickly), and with a bit more power earlier in the power band. Peak horsepower is not increased, but "everything else" horsepower and responsiveness are obviously improved. You won't want to go back.
But everyone says these reeds wear out after a year. Moto Tassinari has even revised the design to the 3R to improve reliability. In this video I install the new version and inspect the old one. After 2,000 miles, how worn are these original V-Force 3 reeds? Let's find out...
This is a totally unsponsored video about my favorite upgrade for the original E-tec 600 H.O. The stock reeds are not a high performance design, as you will see. Better reeds make better performance, and it's obvious from the first crack of the throttle. For this sled it's a no-brainer upgrade, but if your sled came with good stock reeds, I wouldn't expect as much improvement.
6000 miles on this motor now and still running better than stock. Idk why this makes people so mad. You want your 600HO to pull harder for very little money, this is the best way.
Got a 03 skidoo rev 800, stock Reed's I couldn't do good wheelies. Just put vforce3 Reed's in and it pulls like crazy now, wheelies without even trying lol
Well, you are still not doing "wheelies". lol
Ya have to think of another phrase that involves ski's.
What did you use for a throttle body boot?
The V-force reeds come with a new boot.
What if any clutching changes did you make after changing to V force reeds? Did you add weight because of increase in power?
As I say in the video, reeds don't increase peak HP, just low and mid range HP and, most importantly, improved responsiveness. CVT tuning is really only needed for significant peak HP changes. Ski-doo has adjustable primary clutches so if there were any small change to peak HP, the clicker adjustments would be plenty to take care of that. I do use the Dynamo Joe Ibackshift.com clutch kit for Summit XM 600, although I use different springs than what he sells, for my personal preference of responsiveness. Also highly recommend going 800/850 belts as the harder compound is more responsive. It's an obvious difference when you switch back and forth.
@@SnowmobileHomeMovies
Thanks for the info. I basically use the same clutch kit, just got the parts myself, different helix, clutch springs, geared down to 24 top gear. Sled pulls like an 800. it's a 2010 mxz 600 etec I stretched to 129" and run a 1.7" cobra track, it's a great flatland trail/boondock setup
@@DRFTLS_DRFTR On the XM Summit 600 the stock clutching is a joke - a straight helix and very light primary weights. It makes the engine feel like it has no "yank". Stock feels "zingy". You basically have to use a clutch kit if you want good performance on the XM summit 600. But other models like the MXZ 600 have much better stock clutching. Once you have that good clutching you realize how powerful this engine really is. Glad to hear it's working out for you. The V-force reeds give extra "yank" from the bottom end, but the biggest thing is the engine responds to the throttle more quickly and aggressively.
@@DRFTLS_DRFTR Sounds like a great setup. Even though the MXZ has decent stock clutching, you'll get a boost out of the clutch kit. For gearing, the main thing to watch out for is overheating belts. If your belt is often getting too hot, that top gear may still be too big (or the bottom too small). You'll see little to no performance difference when changing gearing. I don't have specific recommendations for your track but it sounds good. I run 18/51 on my Summit 600, but that's with a 154 2.5" and optimized for deep heavy powder.
Reeds do absolutely nothing but change air signal in a 2 stroke they do not add anymore power or draw in anymore air than the engine asks for and I can show you dyno proof and flow tests of all the reeds on the market they will how ever change throttle response by changing the opening and closing of the reeds. I have an Arctic Cat Thundercat 1000 asphalt drag sled with a D&D 1107 engine on turbo and nitro and I'm running stock 1000 reeds because they have best response to my setup. Reeds are a money making gimmick you can actually get same or better gains through clutching at a lower price. Your engine does not change air intake amount unless you change pipes and change porting your pipe is what tells a 2 stroke what amount of air to take in hence the reason you jet up with pipe changes it's the scavaging a pipe creates that sets the amount of air a 2 stroke takes in and the air is not compressed in the bottom end of a 2 stroke unless you are running a turbo or some other type of compressor again the air and fuel drawn into the bottom end is drawn up through the transfer ports and drawn through your intake ports to top of piston by the scavaging effect of your pipe or pipes. Not being a dick but you should know basics of 2 strokes if you're gonna talk about them reeds have no gains they just change responsiveness by changing opening and closing speeds a lighter reed flutters more at Wide open which actually reduces air flow at wide open but they give you a quicker low to mid response and are more prone to breakage at sustained wide open pulls because of the fluttering and heavier reads are less responsive kind of sluggish at low to mid rpms but do not flutter at high to wide open rpms. I have all the dyno and flow data to show there is no power gains in reeds also have videos of all reed flow tests we have done on our flow bench showing where the different reeds start fluttering if your reeds flutter your actually loosing power you want smooth opening and closing and you want your pipes to not over scavage or you get a slamming of the reeds which also causes breakage if reeds chip and break at the tips they are slamming closed because your pipe isn't matched to your engine which is the case with most stock pipes they aren't peoperly tuned because most manufacturers make pipes to fit several engines so they are middle of the road to say and if your reeds crack and break in the middle and upper part of pettle they are to light and fluttering in the upper rpm range. My engine is constantly apart and always on dyno and flow bench looking for rhat micro second advantage it's a test mule for pipes and port work we build our own pipes for different altitudes and different temps and different rpms for different tracks pipes and clutching is where you get gains not the reeds.
So then all reeds are the same and there's no difference between any material type or number of rows or anything, all reeds are the same. Sorry no. I highly recommend these reeds on the 600HO they are absolutely an improvement over stock and nobody paid me to say that. If I had another 600HO I would do it again. And clutching. Both have major room for improvement on that engine and both are needed, not one or the other. Not all engines benefit from different reeds but this engine does. I would not change the stock reeds on an etec 850 because those reeds have a high performance design stock, unlike the 600HO. I'm not selling anything here I'm just showing you what I used, showed that there was no wear after 2000 miles, and that there is an obvious difference between these reeds and stock. If you can't understand how a faster intake valve can improve bottom-end compression at low engine speeds, there's nothing I can say, but they can. Reeds do nothing at WOT, the improvement is all low midrange, but that range matters.
@@SnowmobileHomeMovies reeds only change responsiveness there is no gains from reeds. There are different weights of reeds light reeds open faster at lower rpms which means you go through rpm range faster but they flutter at wide open and if held long enough you actually lose power from it and then you have heavy weight reeds that are slower to open meaning longer through rpms but don't flutter at wide open. There are different weight reeds for different riding styles and for where the sled runs in it's rpms the number of reed pettles dont mean nothing a 2 stroke will only pull in what air the pipe allows it to you are not increasing any air intake on a 2 stroke unless you change pipes or add a turbo. There is no power gains or increase in horsepower with reeds you are only changing the amount of time through rpms in lameman's term changing throttle response. You can save the 300 or 400 bucks spent on reeds and spend 100 to 150 on clutching and get the same effect as changing reeds. Power in 2 strokes is made in pipes and port configeration and timing and ignition timing reeds are not a power adder or changes horsepower what so ever they only change time through rpms. They do not increase amount of air drawn into a 2 stroke only the pipe does that because 2 strokes work on a scavaging effect reason for no valves in a 2 stroke the signal and amount of heat through a pipe is what tells the engine what amount of air it draws in. There are many videos through out the internet that shows how 2 strokes work. If reeds added more air to a 2 stroke then you'd have to jet up and if they added so much that it is compressed in bottom end you'd have to change ignition timing but changing reeds you do neither a jet change nor ignition timing change because they don't increase air flow they change time through rpms which can also be done through clutching for less money. I'd say there is a performance shop some place near you that has a flow bench take your stock reed cages and your aftermarket cages to them and for a few buck they can flow them and most can give you a print out that will put it on paper and show you there is no increase in air only pressure changes in opening and closing which is response most any performance shop wether automotive or powersports either have a flow bench or has use of one and everyone I have ever owned or used has a printer attached get a print out on your reeds you'll be amazed what you'll learn and after you learn what is printed in front of you you can then play with different weight reed pettles. Most shops will flow reeds for 10 to 15 bucks if they have to cut a plate it might be an extra 5 bucks I charge 3 bucks per block to flow reeds because I have all the plates for just about every 2 stroke engine because thats all I do on my bench is reeds and carbs and cylinders and pipes for everything from hot saws to mopeds we are a pipe and port shop and also asphault sled racers and do a little snocross on the off season of asphault racing but our 3 snocross sleds are all piston port 2 strokers which have no reeds. Again reeds do nothing but change time through rpms they don't add air nor do they add any power they simply change time through rpms reason for so many different weight reeds they are like clutch weights and springs and helixes and once you get a flow test done and understand what they actually do and how they work it will open a complete new door of tuning a 2 stroke to you because once you start to understand them completely then you can start mixing reeds with clutching and then you can start adding custom pipes to the mix. Reeds are like silencers or cans on strokes different cans and silencers change sound but do not change power what so ever only pipe changes and port work and with port work comes ignition timing changes those are your power adders and only way to change power in a 2 stroke yeah sure you can change drivers and gears and add horsepower to track but your engine horsepower is still the same. Changing the amount of time through rpms either by reeds or clutching yeah it feels different but your engine horsepower is still the same. My Thundercat dynos any place from 500 to 705 horsepower with only changes being pipes and jets but I can make same reaction times off the line at 500 horse as I can at the full 705 horse just by changing reed weights it's all they do is change response pipes are what sets your engine horsepower in 2 strokes Polaris Ultra 680s are prime examples factory single pipe ultras around 105 horses while the factory triple pipe ultras were around 150 horse same engine same carbs same timing both port and ignition and same reeds but completely different beasts only difference is pipes they set your horsepower on 2 strokes change your pipe temps and pipe signals you change your horsepower change reeds change your time through rpms but power remains the same.
"the air is not compressed in the bottom end of a 2 stroke unless you are running a turbo or some other type of compressor" I have a hard time reading your story because the sentenced are very long and over running. But have you ever heard of "primary compression?" It is the compression on every down stroke of a 2-stroke engine in the cases. It is what drives the fuel/air up the transfers and into the cylinder when the transfer ports open on the down stroke. Yes, the pipe vacuum helps evacuate the cylinder of ex. gas, and then supercharges the cylinder before the piston closes off the ex. port on the up stroke, but there is definitely pressure differences in the crank case that have a direct effect on fuel entering the cylinder. The thinner and more reed tip area of the v-vorce reed do open earlier, and start filling the cases earlier at lower rpm's, and they do fill the cylinder better for more power at those rpm's. If you want to test if crankcase volume makes a difference, a dyno will read it. Add a 5mm spacer between the reed block the the cylinder, effectively increasing crank case volume, and watch the power get more mellow.
Bottom line that I know and experienced, (I do build 2-stroke engines for a living, but of course don't know it all), the V-force reeds are a good component if you want to increase the lower rpm power. But they should compare to higher rpm's with stock single reeds as the double petal lift is half the distance, (reducing flutter).
I am going to use them on a YZ250. Part of my engine mods to make it a low-mid-range tiller. :)
I am matching those reeds to a lower rpm tuned off road pipe (FMF Gnarly), and I even lowered the cylinder one gasket thickness to lower the port rpm target. Good squish still (.050"), and running 100 octane now, but I expect it to be transformed from a high rpm power curve to a low and mid-range short shift rocket.
And I would love to see how a turbo, (or any forced intake) hooks up to a 2-stroke. it would have to be extra pressure from above the exhaust port that started pressurizing the cylinder after the ex. port is close on the up stroke. Any pressurizing of the normal intake tract, may clean out the exhaust gasses in the cylinder better than just scavenging, but the PSI is going to just blow out of the exhaust port which is still open when the transfers close on the up-stroke.
I do agree with your biggest point though. I think it has been a long time (decades) that aftermarket reed actually increased peak hp, unless there is a design flaw in the stock design, like the stock reed petal stop plate blocking off 50% of my YZ250 cylinder reed transfer port tunnel, and not filling the back of the cylinder as well as it should.
Friends dont let friends dont use V force, the cheap plastic reeds kill engines and they wont warranty your parts , then they blame your engine for damaging their part...
Lol
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