71000 Duke of Gloucester - The Odd One Out
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.พ. 2023
- Hello everyone! :D
Following a locomotive that is very close to my heart, we take a look at the unique British Railways Standard Class 8, 71000 'Duke of Gloucester', perhaps the very pinnacle of UK express steam locomotive design and technology, which could have done great things if it hadn't been for last minute cost cutting that would only serve to hamstring the potential for this mighty engine, only for the dedicated efforts of preservationists following the end of its BR career to turn what was once considered the weak sister of the railway into among the most powerful and reliable passenger engines in the world.
Special thanks to Phil Sanderson of the BR Class 8 Steam Locomotive Trust for allowing me the use of several historic clips of the Duke in action during the 1950s and 60s.
All video content and images in this production have been provided with permission wherever possible. While I endeavour to ensure that all accreditations properly name the original creator, some of my sources do not list them as they are usually provided by other, unrelated TH-camrs. Therefore, if I have mistakenly put the accreditation of 'Unknown', and you are aware of the original creator, please send me a personal message at my Gmail (this is more effective than comments as I am often unable to read all of them): rorymacveigh@gmail.com
The views and opinions expressed in this video are my personal appraisal and are not the views and opinions of any of these individuals or bodies who have kindly supplied me with footage and images.
If you enjoyed this video, why not leave a like, and consider subscribing for more great content coming soon.
Paypal: paypal.me/rorymacve?country.x...
Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/rorymacve
Thanks again, everyone, and enjoy! :D
References:
- BR Class 8 Steam Locomotive Trust (and their respective sources)
- Key Model World (and their respective sources)
- Wikipedia (and its respective references) - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I wonder if any of the old BR crews who didn't like working her were still around once she was restored? They might have gotten a rude shock seeing her charging up Shap faster than a Coronation Class Pacific.
I think at least one did, I recall an account somewhere of one running her up Shap and describing the huge difference in performance
@@andrewreynolds4949 Yes I remember that! He said if only it was as good as that when it was new, it would have been a really popular loco.
A former fireman who absolutely hated working on the Duke in BR days and had qualified as a driver later in his career, drove her up Shap after restoration and was amazed at the transformation. I believe he became the engine's regular driver for a time after that.
@@samuelsmith6281 god I just hope that there is a recorded interview of that
Correction - The Duke is not currently at Crewe Works. She's at Tyseley. Also, she could be completed in just a few months.
Great news.
Yes I thought it was at Tyseley. My old stomping ground when I was a kid. I cabbed many a King, Castle and County class wandering round the twin roundhouses in the sixties.
Although I've been searching, news about the Duke has pretty well dried up over the last 6 months or so. It will be brilliant to see it back on the mainline again.
@@GarethT902 it’s a duke, and dukes are usually “he”,duchess is the one your thinking of, as they are often referred to as “her”
@@GalaxyGaming-yg4cy it’s a steam engine, it doesn’t really matter, mate.
There’s only one BR Standard Class 8
I have heard anecdotes that engine crews reporting locomotive trouble on the west coast mainline would miraculously get better when they saw 71000 in the sidings at Crewe raising steam as the replacement. The engine was universally despised by drivers and firemen for it's unconventional controls and behaviour. It is a real shame that it was handicapped by a couple of lazy design decisions.
Although the ashpan problem seems to have been an error in construction not in design.
Keep in mind 71000 was conceived and made when the end of steam era for BR came so they had probably had less focus on 71000 cause of that rushing and laziness.
For trivia, as you say, it had a series of lucky breaks that led to its preservation. At 16:12 when the loco was in Cashmores instead of Barry, you said work was underway dismantling it, "Before the error was noticed." The error was noticed by a Cardiff Canton driver named Maurice Shepherd. The error was glaringly obvious as either "Woodhams" or "Barry" was chalked somewhere on it. He reported the error to Dai Woodhams who promptly requested his engine plus parts removed. In preservation, he was involved with the Dean Forest Railway where I had many happy memories with him during my stint between 1999 and 2004.
At Cashmore's Scrapyard not that many locos sent there survived when compared to the ones sent to Barry Island's Scrapyard. In Newport Scrapping was somewhat swift in comparison to the latter at least at Barry Island there was more time for Preservation societies to garner up the cash for the scrap value of the locos there. In summary this was a well put and extremely fantastic clip Rory.
Isn't that because Woodhams (at Barry, not Barry Island, separate places) took in a lot more wagons etc which were easier to cut up, and so left the locomotives till later. And hence their survival. Thank god. Pip Pip.
The scrapyards of Yorkshire didn't even wait for them to cool down before they cut them. So many fine classes became extinct in moment.
@@grangetowncardiff6935 That had something to do with it yes.
@@grangetowncardiff6935 Yes, and when the wagons had been cut up, scrap metal prices had fallen so it was less worthwhile to cut up the engines. Hence the survival of a good number of LMS, GWR, SR (especially Bulleid Pacifics) and BR engines, but hardly any ex LNER engines which went to Yorkshire (like Cap'n Jimmy's description!) Even so, complete classes unluckily disappeared if none had gone to Barry, like the GWR Granges.
@@grangetowncardiff6935 Saw a TV interview with IIRC Dai Woodham. He said he left most of the locomotives alone as he saw them as his pension fund. He got that right.
It sounds like, between them, the Swindon drawing office and Crewe locomotive works, crippled it.
Amazing work by the preservation societies.
When Steam Railway did an article years ago about 71000, then they had an interesting response from a fireman who had been at Crewe north, regarding the performance of the engine.
Whereas general consensus was that she was a poor performer, he had no such problems maintaining steam pressure which was generally complained as being difficult and leading to poor performance.
His trick was that instead of looking at the Duke like a “enlarged Brit” then he had looked and seen a 3 cylinder engine and so instead of firing the Duke like a 2 cylinder Brit, had fired as if on a 3 cylinder Royal Scot 6100 class engine which he also had experience with.
However most people continued to fire the engine like a Brit and complained about her not bothering to listen and fire the engine differently to a Brit, whereas the engine could have had a better career if people actually fired the engine as it required as the engine was.
Whilst undoubtedly the engine was not optimal, and subsequent improvements have been made with corrections made then these will also have changed firing requirements.
In much the same way that diesel vs petrol cars require different driving style to get the best out of a diesel then different steam engines require different firing styles as well and it would appear that the wrong firing style was being used with the Duke as built and in BR service due to the misconception of simply a large brit, rather then a large Scot.
So it would appear that not just the BR board that not prepared to spend the time on learning the engine and how could be improved but the train crews as well not being prepared to learn how to make the most of what was in front on them.
By necessity then during preservation then the time and effort to understand the Duke has been made by the maintainers but also the people driving and firing and oddly enough the engine has been transformed.
I understood that that the ashpan had insufficient admittance of air, which the restoration discovered.
I wonder if secondary air admitted about the fire ( as on the Red Devil) would have improved matters.
@@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391 There was an implication in the video that some holes were actually cut in the ashpan to try to help. A somewhat draconian and primitive-sounding solution but it sounds as if Crewe had actually worked out roughly what was wrong, but not why it had happened (which would have been invisible).
Very interesting observation. A key part of the problem was that if you pushed 71000 to high combustion rates, the fire broke up and lots of coal just went straight out the chimney, which we now know to be due to the ashpan construction error and the chimney design. The Royal Scots, being 4-6-0s, had a smaller grate which limited maximum combustion rates. So yes, if you treated the Duke more gently and aimed for a consistent and even power output, it might well have worked more efficiently. It wouldn't like thrashing. A.M. Powell noted that the Patriots had to be treated relatively gently whereas Black Fives and Jubilees could be flogged. His comment on the Duke was that it needed a coal mine in the tender, and a couple of firemen wouldn't have gone amiss! He blamed the design - wrongly, in retrospect.
@@iankemp1131 On the Red Devil (I would highly recommend "The Red Devil and other tails from the end of steam" by David Wardale) they admitted secondary air above the grate; this not only improved combustion, but also reduced clinkering. I would presume such a modification (although it needs work on the boiler, instead of just some holes in the ashpan) would have made much more of an improvement.
A well researched vid, thank you.
All this after OVS Bulleid designed the finest steaming boiler in the country for his Merchant Navy Class Pacific’s back in 1941.
Held the record on the Rugby test plant for steam production!!
Steel firebox (which Riddles refused to adopt) despite the fact Eastleigh had the flanging blocks, jigs, welding procedure & know how readily available. Because of jealousy etc, they ridiculed Bulleid & his engines mercilessly & unnecessarily rebuilt them into 3cyl Britannia’s which weren’t a patch on the unconverteds!!
Ol Bulleid said; “they should have just scrapped them,” & I tend to empathise with him on that point.
How on earth Riddles got it so wrong was possibly due to being let down by his chief draughtsman, Swindon drawing office, (who exactly was paying attention to what they were up to?) & his stubborn refusal to adopt Bulleids boiler design.
BTW 34064 with a giesel ejector was reported to be equal to a Merchant Navy despite having a smaller boiler, 10sq ft less grate area & smaller cyls & v/v’s.
All just goes to show what is possible with keen & dedicated men, following up!
It was great to take a trip on a steam-hauled special from Bristol to Plymouth and back a few years ago. We were double -headed by the Duke of Gloucester and Tornado (no diesel at the rear). We should have had the Duke and Britannia, but Tornado, still dirty from its last outing, had to be substituted at very short notice. The three-cylinder beat from both, over the Devon Banks, was awesome.
I recalled, as a boy, waiting to see the Duke, hauling the down Mid-day Scot, at my grandmother's cottage at Mancetter. I thought that I could hear it long before any Duchess.
I also clearly recall being taken to see King George VI (City of Leeds renamed) lying on her (he/she was a Duchess) side at Polesworth after derailing on faulty track. It was July 1947, and I was 2 years 11 months old.
Great video. I remember seeing her at Barry back in 1968. Well done to the original restoration team for their work and getting it right. I wonder what would have happened, had she been built to Riddles specifications from Day One?
If she had, she would of been better then every passenger diesel BR had in there modernisation plan.
@@dsmx85 except for one thing. She would have been no better than all other stesm locomotives as she would have to driven carefully in the Smoje Control Zones that came into effect after the passing of the Clean Air Act 1956. All steam,locomotives could not produce excessive smoke in the SCZs (Section 19 of the Act made this an offence). This is the one area that the diesels were better at.
At the same time, the Duke likely would have been better than most locomotives of similar power, since she had such good cylinder efficiency. If the boiler had been similarly efficient that would have increased the available power under such restricted conditions.
I remember seeing the sectioned cylinder and valve gear at the Science Museum in London, probably in about 1970 ish.
The Italian locomotive shown at 5.40 has conventional Walschaerts valve gear.
Good video. Thanks.
She was not given a chance by her original owners, but given a second chance and faults were removed showing her true power
Have been over Shap to Carlisle with this locomotive, was amazed at it's performance, the modifications made in the preservation era certainly have paid off, and 71000 is now truly at the top of its class, and long may it do so.
Really good to have a thorough video describing this unique engine, its vicissitudes and eventual vindication. Not quite accurate though; it's said at 9:30 that the ashpan had a design flaw, but it's clear at 13:40 that it was actually wrongly constructed. Everyone was puzzled at the time why it was a relative failure; E.S. Cox in Locomotive Panorama described it as a very near miss, with the most efficient cylinders ever, but let down by its inability to boil water fast. The firebed broke up at high combustion rates, and we now know that the limited air to the ashpan was a major factor (shared in fact by several other loco designs over the years, but those were genuinely due to wrong design, rather than the builders failing to follow the working drawings correctly). Not really due to cost cutting either. Unsure how much the plain double chimney was a factor; Stanier Pacifics and rebuilt Kings worked fine without Kylchap exhausts, but it depends how essential those were for Caprotti valve gear. Other Caprotti engines including Black Fives had plain chimneys; their reputation was of being weak at low speeds but efficient and free-running at higher speeds. It was so fortunate that the Duke was saved and rebuilt, the construction error found and the mystery solved, so that it can show the performance it was capable of. Lots of nice archive (and modern) footage.
The fact that Duke of Gloucester looks like its drivers are about 84 inches tall, when they are only 74 inches, illustrates how small British loading gauge actually is. In the States, an engine like this would have been a mixed traffic type. It is very attractive machine.
Caprotti valve gear had a lot of problems when tried out in the States -- The Pennsylvania R.R. tried poppet valves on both K-4s 4-6-2 and T-1 4-4-4-4 types. It may just be that coal was cheap enough in the States that the extra efficiency was outweighed by greater maintenance requirements.
71000 is undergoing overhaul at Tysley in Birmingham and is likely to be used with vintage trains.
It's a very powerful performer since its overhaul in preservation.
I remember her at the ELR, where during a diesel gala I first travelled an 8 coach train top and tailed by a class 40 and a Hymek, I was riding the rear cab of the Hymek where I could see the speedometer.
The class 40 gave it all up the 1:85 Broadfield bank, and managed to reach the top at 28mph.
Later that day the Duke had to go up to Heywood and from there to Castleton to join the mainline for a tour.
(S)he was attached to that same train, now the dead 40 also adding up to the train weight, effective it was 14 on.
The acceleration up the bank was phenomenal, the top was reached at over 40mph!, no GPS on the trains then to enforce speed limits!
Never have seen any other locomotive haul 390 tons up that bank in such a fashion, not even a Deltic on both engines.
I've been on a train from Exeter St Davids to Bristol Temple Meads, that was hauled by Duke of Gloucester,
Excellent vid. Somewhere I watched a video on the devotion to save her. It covered the cylinder casting being randomly cut in half (to destroy and forget I believe) and the number of wives that left the gentleman during his devotion.
Probably going to get some stick for this but you know we (the UK) were exporting auto stoked "modern" coal fired 240 ton locomotives from Glasgow all around the world to countries with little money since the 1950's? Roller bearings on all axles with one piece cast frames and cyls, adjustable capacity and mass for the trip, could carry far more coal and water, 40% higher tractive effort, far more range, much more efficient, vastly more pleasant for the crew on a spotless footplate and all on 3ft 6 gauge. Sadly she was not modern steam or what we could do. BR's modernisation plan still involved one poor soul with a shovel expected to put 10 tons of coal through a small hole in 6 hours to feed this gorgeous lady.
I first saw 71000 when it was in store at Crewe Works in 1966. I took a photo of it even though I had no idea what it was as it was hidden away in the "Locos proposed for preservation" page of the Ian Allan Combined Volume. I later saw it on several visits to Woodham's at Barry in 68 and 70. Wonderful that it was preserved.
72010 Hengist is currently under construction
The man who is talking has the perfect voice for this an there great videos 👍👍😊
Enjoyed that "Duke" history. Early 1950s schoolboy me attended a Junior school in Gloucester with the playground close to the railway bridge on the Welsh side of the Central Station. Up on that bridge, fresh out of Swindon Works having been "Westernised", new Britannias with names like Venus, Mercury and Apollo etc seen up on that bridge prior to going to the Motive Power Depot 85B to visit the turntable for turning around for the return trip. Not surprisingly, many of my schoolmates became lifelong Railway Enthusiasts. Even saw a heavy freight Beyer-Garrett up over that bridge from Wales. Had no idea such things existed as I could not afford a Midland Edition Ian Allen which cost a hefty 2/6d. Half a Crown.
That reminds me. I used my 2/6d weekly pocket money ( half a crown = 12.5 decimal pence ) to purchase a cheap day football return ticket on a Saturday to travel up to Birmingham New Street ( the Black Hole of Brum literally ) then on to Tamworth in the hope of seeing some Coronation Class Pacific action at speed northbound with the Mid-day Scot. I saw them too including City of Bristol. My train rides up to Brum had a huge bonus. That being my train assisted up the Lickey Incline by no less a locomotive than "Big Bertha" herself. The purpose built 0-10-0 58100.
Later visits to Tamworth to see the Mid-day Scot at speed did not always see my favourite Coronations. One time those new fangled Diesel Electric ( Hybrids ? ) 10000 and 10001 double headed the Mid-day Scot Northbound. My last 1950s visit to Tamworth was another surprise. At the expected time, emerging in the distance out of the mist was what at long range appeared to be a Coronation. A short time later, was able to see it was not a Coronation, but 71,000 Duke of Gloucester flashing through Tamworth low level with the Mid-day Scot.
Fast as those LMS pacifics I saw were, was not the fastest ever Steam Train I ever saw. That was in fact visually faster. Standing on the Station at Swindon waiting for my connection, a fast approaching express. It was "The Bristolian" GWR Castle Class at very high speed. Flashing through the station non-stop and soon out of sight. I had no idea a Steam Train could travel that fast. Those four cylinders at that speed made a beautiful sound from their exhausts. The eight power pulse sounds for each revolution of those big driving wheels merging into a glorious continuous sound rarely heard from a Steam Locomotive. More like a powerful sporting ICE V8 road vehicle.
Great days long gone but not forgotten. Both my sons fast approaching their 40s are keen railway enthusiasts. No idea where they got that from ..
A wonderful story and brilliantly told as always! Thankyou Ruairadh.
The title should've been "71000 Duke of Gloucester - One of its kind"
Love this loco, didn't know there was only 1 in the class😮
Correction: the 2251 class was not a Dean design, it was a Collett loco.
And for me definitely far from humble. Referred to as "baby castles" iirc? Amongst my fav GW engines and I wish we had a couple more saved.
Magic locomotive now fixed up to run properly as it should have from the start of its life YEAH STEAM ON BABY
Wonderful piece. Thank you for your endeavor. Could have been three times as long and not dragged a bit.
I cant wait until.the new P2 comes out of the shop. That will indeed be a great sight to see.
Wonderful thanks. Hope to ride it someday.
Again another great video. Thank you for your time and effort in producing these videos. I really enjoy your railway videos.
Very interesting video, bringing the public almost up to date with this great locomotive. Not long to wait before she is back on the main line. Thanks for putting this together!
Hadn't heard of this loco before, but now I know everything about it. Great video
What a remarkable story, thanks for sharing this with us!
As a U. S. Fan, I can't help but wonder what kind of performance one of our "superpower" passenger 4-8-4s would have been able to do with a three-cylinder simple expansion layout and some of the other improvements the Duke has? Like a New York Central Niagara, Union Pacific FEF, or Norfolk and Western J. One of them might just have blown the doors off of Mallard's record.
Not long to go once the overhaul is complete the loco will surely be back on the mainline
I love when its railway week in the cycle of the themes, and this weeks topic definitely hit the mark. Loved it.
Nice to get the back story of 71000 filled in. Quality stuff. Thank you.
Really well told story. Also kudos for getting the aspect ratios right on all the pics and vids.
Some of the BR Standard Class tank engines are currently under construction
12:54 no that would most likely be Rio Grande Southern 20 since she had been patched together with tin cans and her frames where mangled from falling off the side of a mountain and also some guy who had worked with her on the RGS went to the Colorado Railroad Museum to tell them never to run that engine because she was in such horrible condition but she runs now, Strasburg did a great job restoring her and now she pulls trains around the loop at the Colorado Railroad Museum along with 491 and 346
I don’t know, Duke of Gloucester was left to rust exposed in the salty sea air for nearly a decade, the cylinders were gone and the tender was missing too. Pictures of it from that time look pretty awful.
@@andrewreynolds4949 can't be worse then having a massive dent in the boiler and frames that threw the wheels off when they loosened the bolts and so bad that when the engine was in service they had to hide from the FRA
Beautiful machines.
Gladdened me to see this machine's story and on going preservation
Look forward to see the mighty Duke back in action again soon.
Very interesting history short. The narration is outstanding as usual. Thank you.
Awesome stuff, hope its back on the rails soon
thankyou so much for this very detailed class review.
Nice to see your own work included again in the video.
Thank you Rory,
Aunt Barbara adores you!
Hi,
I really enjoy all of your aircraft, auto, and rail videos. Top notch stuff!
I'd like to suggest maybe a video on the Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer trucks. I have a 2002 Mountaineer, and it has costed me thousands in repairs. They have crap transmissions, many engine problems with the V8 4.6L and V6 4.0 engine and many other problems. Yet the Ford Explorer was a very popular SUV. It's deritives are still selling today. Many of them still having design flaws. Thanks. Lisa.
Great video
Great work, Ruairidh - Just to reiternate below comment from MLP-Hot-Rod... there is beaverish activity going on with Star Wars grade signalling electronics in the tender and damnibly boring cleaning-up outer boiler panels. You are welcome to get a hands-on! Panels that is. The Tender electrics has become 3 phase serious Druid-speak. Stick with the grey-scrubbers. Always a welcome tea/coffee & buscuits in the cosy Support Coach for the kind & curious. Regards, John Kennedy.
I scrambled over him/her/she/they/it/them/Klingon etc at Barry twice on our 'Train Club' trips!
Sick video man🔥
As pointed out elsewhere, notably by @DeCasoU1, J.F. Harrison had a major part in the design of the locomotive, maybe more so than Riddles. He had come from Doncaster and had extensive experience of Kylchap exhausts on the Gresley A4s. There was apparently some internal rivalry and some LMS men in the drawing office were not that sorry when the Duke was a relative failure, according to A.H. Powell.
I love 71000 due to its uniqueness and I have a book with the drawings
Nice to see her back in steam
I would love to one day see 71000 Duke of Gloucester
Wonderful story of a miraculous save.
I hope the rocket 200 will be a INSANE event imagine a ultra old steam engine alongside a brand new ultra modern emu train
Brilliant video! Cleared up some stories I'd heard about it's problems. most of which weren't true LOL! One thing that I noticed but you didn't mention though, it seemed to work better after its restoration than it did after its overhaul in the late 90s.
The “Duke of Gloucester” steam locomotive are one of a kind in the steam era before railways were changing and steam engines were replaced by diesel and electric trains.
I wonder how a 9F would perform with 3 cylinders, Cam valve gear and lem-Por drafting. 10 driven wheels, with the smoothness of 3 cylinders, that would be some pulling power.
I remember reading about how in the US the 4-10-2s of the Southern Pacific where regarded as real hard workers (although no doubt the Larger American Loading gauge would already improve the performance)
Nice. For the next video, I would love to see you do the history of the turbostars
That is an extraordinary history! I am tempted to call it a real life Phoenix 🙂
This locomotive has fascinated me for a while.
She's in Transport Tycoon and the free, open-source remake OpenTTD, in which I believe she's the best steam locomotive. Reading about the real-world locomotive was interesting, but I don't think I really got her story until this video.
5:15 that’s a rather sexy double header… A1 and A4
I like the Duke’s original tender because the tender was like Duchess of Sutherland’s tender.
It's a another example of one of our Countries massive flaws, of 'lost opportunities', certainly in engineering anyway and in rail in particular. There were certain things that weren't done correctly/or were overlooked, the huge difference in power outputs between the original build and the 'preservation' build show that up and with some tweaking, well who knows?
But thank goodness, it ended up being sent to 'Barry Island' and that we can see 'what could have been'?
In some sense, you could say 71000 would be somewhat the closest thing to a IRL Henry the Green Engine, in terms of flaws, there was
After doing some research I found out Duke of Gloucester is to return to service this year anyway so se won’t have to wait long now before we see this 8MT running again
Great video!
Cracking video!
Sadly I only got into railway photography in the last few months of this beasts service before its boiler certificate ran out. I'd been out 3 times to see her in all her glory, but each time she had failed her fitness to run test and was either replaced by another engine or cancelled altogether. You might say shes my unicorn.
Apparently she also smashed all sorts of speed records, the one that springs to mind was the speed record attainned whilst climbing shap summit.
I bet that lack of the kylechap blastpipe really pissed Riddles off, you can just imagine the scene when he found out. I'd of been a very angry man indeed.
Riddles did not believe in advanced exhaust systems. He believed in simplicity. There again it is debatable as to how much influence he had on the design since John Frederick Harrison had moved from Doncaster to Crewe in 1951 to take up the position of Mechanical and Electrical Engineer. Harrison had been a Premium Apprentice of Gresley from 1923 and is considered to be the main input into the design of 71000.
The late J T van Riemsdijk was the Keeper of Mechanical Engineering at the then British Science Museum and he told Riddles that his obsession with two-cylindered simplicity had had a serious negative impact on locomotive development and performance in the UK. Looking at what other engineers achieved elsewhere in the world his view is quite understandable.
@@DeCasoU1 One could expect Harrison to want Kylchap exhausts since they had been very successful on the Gresley A4s. Van Riemsdijk was a fan of European designs and compound locomotives. But in post-war labour conditions, simplicity and accessibility was a huge bonus for effective maintenance. So there was a lot to be said for using 2 outside cylinders unless more were needed - which was also general American practice (and adopted successfully by Churchward in the 1900s although he got distracted by the de Glehn compound Atlantics).
@@iankemp1131 Considering the developments of the 1920s and 30s which took place outside the UK it is unfortunate that the obsession with simplicity had the result that UK types had poor power to weight ratios. Locomotives developed by Chapelon are credited with being able to maintain 40 cylinder horsepower per ton of locomotive weight and the problem of steam locomotives not being capable of producing high horsepower outputs at low speed was addressed by a six cylinder compound 2-12-0. If we look at the weight of locomotives capable of ihp outputs in excess of 5,000 hp they are much heavier than Chapelon's three cylinder 4-8-4. There is a great deal of metal contributing little or nothing to the power output figures. You can build what might be considered a complicated locomotive in order to achieve a performance (and economy) advantage and it does not have to present maintenance and availability problems, de Caso's 232.U.1 design is an example of a complicated design which robust, efficient and easy to drive. In the US locomotives were mechanically robust and well designed but lacked the attention given to thermodynamics which were a feature of a significant number of European designers.
I am in favour of building fewer and better engines in association with producing the facilities needed to look after them. Engines should be at work, should be serviced in minutes and then be back at work again.
@@DeCasoU1 All very good and interesting points. That being said, Chapelon's engines were world beaters and the best British engines were probably as good as most others internationally. Chapelon's engines also needed skilled trained firemen, and were not always robust enough to cope with the power that they generated. And the larger French loading gauge makes it easier to fit in extra equipment and larger cylinders. So with the available labour and shed facilities both pre- and post-war, simple designs may have been a realistic compromise, although better could have been achieved engineering-wise. An interesting idea would be a number of Chapelonised engines to give higher power outputs and speeds, but could such trains have been fitted into timetables alongside the run-of-the-mill ones, especially on the LMS where the small-engine policy turned into a medium-engine policy dominated by Class 5s and 5Xs.
@@iankemp1131 Chapelon strengthened frames, 242A1 creation being a case in point. The record setting 240P did have problems - but with overheated bearings due to the supply of sub-standard lubricating oils. The current restoration of 231E41 taking place in St Pierre des Corps is worth looking at. Remember that Chapelon spent most of his time improving other people's relative failures. You can fit larger cylinders within the UK loading gauge (see the Pacific mentioned above also the du Bousquet Baltic in Mulhouse), you can fit boilers with improved working pressure and you can obtain a power output of 4,000 hp from a grate area of a little over 40 sq ft.
Beautiful. Cheers 👍🏆🇬🇧
A good story well presented.
So many rivalries at this time from the big four days. Plans made quickly and without thought, to be replaced by more ill thought out strategies. Maybe the railway still haven’t recovered.
71000 Duke of Gloucester is the prototype for the BR Standard Class 8F
Slight correction, the 2251 GWR 0-6-0 class was designed by Collett not Dean.
Exactly!
The Duke, a glimpse of what might have been.
Audio is a lot better!
I thought it worse especially at the start
Great story!
Minor point - it was rescued from Barry Island in 1974
Between a couple of sources on the internet linked with the locomotive’s preservation, it seems the story about the dampers being undersized is a myth. Most likely it was the concrete fire arch that was built wrong, not the dampers. The angle of the arch, and thus the proximity to the fire and the air circulation, was incorrect, and when the locomotive was restored the arch was rebuilt to the original drawings’ specifications.
Great videos. Although there’s not much clearance between the top of the loco and the bridge at 15:30
thanks man. if the right blastpipe was used, those Deltics would't look so great when replacing steam
Yes they would.
You have no comprehension why the replacement of steam was undertaken. Inflexible. Expensive to maintain. Expensive to crew. Massive lead times required to go from cold to ready for hauling a train. Hugely polluting.
There are many, many reasons steam was removed from service. Some of them are listed in the previous paragraph.
@@davidpnewton Exactly, 22 Deltics managed the work of 55 Pacifics. Overall efficiency was something like 10% on a good day when new or just overhauled, they used thousands of gallons of water and needed to be turned and serviced after every long run. But I'm still a fan!
Interesting.
Tornado is not a replica it is another member of its class to be built in 2008.
The locomotive listing reminded me of an episode interlude in Thomas the Tank Engine
Could you do a video about the L M S Royal Scotts?
The first 5 of the 15 unbuilt Std Class 6s were allocated the names Henhgist, Horsa, Canute, Wildfire and Firebrand. All of which are definitely non-Clan names.
That's because those 5 locos were going to be part of batch that was intended for the Southern region with some slight modifications to the original design. The remaining 10 would've gone to the Scottish region with new clan names had the proposed batch of 15 been built.
Hengist is currently being built
Thanks for this brilliant and well researched video. That decision to replace the design exhaust arrangements by the Swindon Works appears almost malicious.
Yes there was a lot of this "dog in the manger" stuff going on throughout railway practice- even decades after nationalisation. Typically involved LMS practice being institutionalised but the Western Region were particularly partisan in undermining non-GW practice given the opportunity to do so. I'm thinking particularly of the closure of the former SR lines west of Exeter.
What happened to the Duke’s original tender?
Can you make a video about the Thompson Pacifics, the BR Class 40's, and the BR Class 15, 16, & 17's please. Please respond when you get this please.
I wonder if they'll try to get the Duke certified for 90mph operation like the A1 Trust did with Tornado?
A new Duke would be easier to certify than to certify the super-prototype old one.
Since the Duke itself has proven its design to be powerful and efficient, it might have a high chance to have a new sister for the sake of Duke itself.
I thought the last steam engine built was 2-10-0 Evening Star?
71000 is the last "Pasific" steam loco built by BR
When will Duke of Gloucester be back in steam?
It's a shame 71000 wasn't built a few years earlier, as an 8P she could have worn Express Passenger Blue!
This is the story of how a failed engine found success in preservation.
ahh yes ignore the engineer you've asked to design a loco so you can just screw him over