I have no idea why TH-cam thought it was a good idea to automatically place 17 ads in the video. I've gone in and manually edited them to a normal amount (three). Sorry about that, everyone.
I have always thought(and still do) the word/term "Hell" originated west of the Sea of Galilee, north of Tel Dor... From the ancient neolithic city Yiftahel(aka Hell), wiped out from a Tsunami or comet impact(?) thousands of years ago.. Your video with Dr. Walls from last week, "Hitler in Heaven?"(th-cam.com/video/22O-lspFoUc/w-d-xo.html) where you two seem to assert that Hitler could very well be in Heaven, along with this video's mention of Hell being created by mere mortals here on Earth as a means to control/convert the masses really leads one to the rule you have used in other past videos.. Occam's razor.
@QQminusS If you're implying God failed to create a perfect world, that is incorrect. God created a perfect world but he decided to give authority and responsibility to man so that they could reflect his image. God is giving man responsibility and therefore making man responsible for the outcome. When man does something bad, he attempts to reject his responsibility in places it back on God so we can blame God for the outcome. Man has failed and has ever since tried to place the responsibility back on God so that he can be blamed for man's decisions with the authority given to them.
@QQminusS I'm a Christian who recognizes that the physical things in this world were created by things which do not appear and to focus solely on the things of this life is a deception. The eternal things are not physical and unseen, but those are the things which are the truth, and the temporal of this life is not the ultimate truth. I also believe that there are two ultimate ways to the spiritual realm, through means by God through Jesus, or through Satan. If Jesus is not acknowledged, then it is through Satan. One perceives their view is correct because they are indeed able to access the spiritual world, but it is not through God, but because one does have experience of the supernatural, he believes his belief is the truth when it is not. Jesus is The Truth. We are not our own god and we were not created to become a god, we were created to to love and serve God, and to be loved by God, and from this union conform into the image of Christ.
@QQminusS I perceive you understand something of the spiritual... James 1: 23-25 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 1 Corinthians 13:12-13 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13¶And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
No one would choose to be tormented forever. And it's definitely not ethical to force someone to believe something unknowable in order to avoid being tormented forever. None of us know if there is heaven or hell. Certainly the traditional concept of hell is NOT compatible with a loving God, no matter how many mental gymnastics people go through to "explain" it.
@@SapphirePanorama dont believe it just because I say it. Look into it! Do you're due diligence and investigate whether Jesus life, death, and resurection actually happened. I think you'll be suprised!
Answer, god doesn’t. There is no eternal punishment, non lake of fire, no substitutionary atonement. The earth is not 6000 years old, there was no Adam and Eve. There was no global flood 4000 years ago. This is why Christianity is so frustrating to me now after having been a believer for decades. I am not an atheist.
@@leonardu6094 Oh, right, death, destruction, to perish, burned up like chaff, etcetera, suddenly means something else regarding the wages of sin... But it can't be eternal life either, even if it is, right?
@@forwardsdrawkcab No, just physical death. As in sin brought on physical death. We weren't initially created to die, that came as a result of the fall (Sin). Are you christian?
We have Free Will. Hell is when humanity chooses to reject God and his plan for our lives. God doesn’t create us to go to hell, he created us to be in union with him in eternal happiness. Free will is a necessary component of that though. God desires each and every person to know and love him and reach heaven, but there are those who reject him and choose not to follow him. God is all knowing, but we still hold and possess free will to choose God or not to.
@@bansheebrethren797 Great! Let's look through some questions: 1 - Does a baby who dies in the womb go to heaven or hell? You can be specific here on what you believe. I don't know if you believe in inhalation or eternal conscious torment or limbo. I think this outlines a scenario when a being doesn't have a chance to use free will. 2 - Does God know if someone will go to heaven or hell? If so, could God choose to not create this particular human? 3 - Does God have a plan? If so, can humans go against God's plan? If not, how do we have free will when we can't take an action. 4 - Do we have free will in Heaven? If free will is required to choose to love God, it seems we would have free will. 5 - Given we have free will in Heaven, can we sin in Heaven? If we can't sin in Heaven or don't want to sin in Heaven, why can't God make us this way on Earth to begin with? I look forward to your thoughts on these questions.
@@malirk 1. Tbh I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject but what I do know is that God is just, and we can trust his judgement. This very situation expresses the need for baptism as soon as possible as it cleanses the soul of Original sin and actual sin. This is the Catholic belief anyhow. 2. I would say that he can know all the possibilities of our lives and where that lead us. He knows every result, but still gives us the free will. He knows we have a choice because he gave us a choice. God allows us to choose and doesn’t predestine anyone to hell and at the moment of creation, they are not predestined to hell. God wants us all to go to heaven and actively works towards that end, whether we accept and cooperate in that work is up to us. God loves us, but love requires free will from both parties. God loves us infinitely, but we have to choose to love him as well. This is the best answer I can give in regards to this question. 3. Yea God has a plan, and yes people can go against it. The book of genesis displays this, humanity lived in in perfect harmony with God, in original justice and original holiness but this is lost because Adam and Eve use their free will to go against that plan after listening to the serpent/Satan. Humans definitely can go against God’s plan and there are for sure instances of that happening every day. For instance, I would say al instances of Abortion go against God’s plan. Our free will once again provides us the opportunity to choose God or not to. 4. Yes you do have free will in heaven, free will is a characteristic of our souls and thus stays with us for eternity. How does this interact after death? I am not s knowledgeable on the subject, so I will refrain from an answer so as to not say anything incorrect. Sorry. 5. Can we sin in heaven? The answer is no because we are purified of our concupiscence, the inclination to sin, before we enter into heaven. Heaven is ultimate happiness with God forever, and since God is ever holy, any stain of sin cannot be present and we are purified to where that sin or inclination to sin is no longer present. As for the next part of this question, I am once again not able to give an amazing answer. These are some really good questions and I’m not a theologian lol. God just making us that “perfect like In heaven” I would say is a dictatorship. We would be robots. That reality you speak of, eliminates free will. We have a choice as did Adam and Eve. Making us do whatever he wants all the time, with no choice, is not love. I’m sorry if this answer is disappointing so please forgive me.
@@bansheebrethren797 1 - However, what happens to a baby that isn't born or dies immediately on birth? Where do these babies go? They never used free will. This points out the issue saying that God has to give us free will because some people never utilize free will. Let's just get right to a big point: *Yes you do have free will in heaven ... Can we sin in heaven? The answer is no because we are purified* You've just clearly stated that we can have free will and not sin. Thus God could have created us purified to begin with and we would still have free will and choose not to sin. This fixes the whole situation. Think through it.
@@malirk yes you have free will in heaven, but because heaven is not like the world we live in now, it is outside of time and many other metaphysical things, it’s impact is very different. Yes we have free will in heaven, as free will is a characteristic of our soul, but we already made the choice. All throughout our life and At our death, that is when we make our choice. Again I’m not a theologian, so please take my replies with a grain of salt. Reality after death is not something the human mind can truly replicate or simulate. Free Will then manifests itself in a very different way. From my understanding, we make our choice by our lives and the final word is when we die, there There are no other choices after that. This would mean that our free will is present still but not interacted with I suppose. Once again I’m not a theologian. In regards to babies dying and etc. Saints and other theologians have entertained the idea of limbo, but it is not a doctrine formally decreed by the Catholic Church. We entrust those souls the infinite mercy and justice of God. We do not and cannot know their eternal fates. I suggest reading St Thomas Aquinas, I cannot direct you to any specific works of his that may answer your questions, but he is very thorough and is able to get into the metaphysical stuff.
If god is all-knowing that means he knows everything that will ever happen which means he knows who will go to hell before they are conceived. So some people where CREATED to burn in hell. How is he loving again?
I think you are confused on the fact of God being timeless. God knows everything before they happened because he is not dependent on time. He is the source of time. So events happen for him different than how they will happen for us. So by that logic. Yes God does know your future however he didn't force your future. Hope that makes sense
@@jaymason8352 You're confusing God's will with his self being independent from time. He didn't create you with purpose of going to hell or heaven. He gave you free will to either accept salvation or reject it. He knows your future again because he is independent of time. He created time. So events occur differently from God how they occur for us. He literally knows the future because it has already happened for him. Hence... Timeless
@@edwin6146 you're contradicting yourself. If he knows the future i can't escape it. If he knows im going to hell there is no point in me existing. I cant change fate. I used to say the exact same thing until i realized it didn't make any sense
Neither the idea of hell nor eternal torment are found anywhere in properly translated Scripture (if you see any references to either one, you’re reading a badly translated Bible). The apostle Paul is very clear that Christ was successful and that everyone will eventually experience salvation, despite what misguided religionists might claim. The judgements in Scripture are actually talking about various different things altogether from what most people have assumed.
That was a circumcision verse, not an uncircumcision verse, and like most of those verses, it isn’t saying quite what most people assume it is. It’s important to interpret Scripture based on a knowledge of what it means to rightly divide the word of truth. Regardless, the fact that everyone will eventually experience salvation is based 100% on Scripture. It’s what Paul clearly taught. If you really aren’t familiar with this truth, I wrote about it at christianheretic.com/nochurch (in the first three chapters).
@RetroMan Can any text really speak for itself? Doesn't it at least need a reader that makes sense of it? Once one of my students Stated, 'but the Bible saus...', after which I asked the class to be silent, put my Bible to my ears and said 'but I don't hear anything...?' How much we hold the Bible in high regard and even when we believe its composition was divinly inspired, it is us fallible humans who make sense of it. We make the Bible speak and by doing so necessarily infuse it with our own voice. Which might explain for the large variety of interpretations. I would applaud People who would say: 'As I see it, the Bible means to say..' instead of arguing that a text, especially such an multilayered text as this holy book, could ever speak for itself...
I'll just throw this out here: "Currently, the most popular way of defending the notion of an eternal torment is an appeal to creaturely freedom and to God’s respect for its dignity, but there could scarcely be a poorer argument-whether it’s made crudely as by William Lane Craig or elegantly by Eleonore Stump, it is going to fail. It wouldn’t if we could construct a metaphysics or phenomenology of the will’s liberty that was purely voluntarist, purely spontaneous, though even then we would have to explain how an absolutely libertarian act, obedient to no rationale whatsoever, would be distinguishable from sheer chance or mindless organic or mechanical impulse, and so any more free than an earthquake or embolism. But on any cogent account, free will is a power inherently purposive, teleological, primordially oriented towards the good and shaped by that transcendental appetite to the degree that a soul can recognize the good for what it is. No one can freely will the evil as evil. One can take the evil for the good, but that doesn’t alter the prior transcendental orientation that wakens all desire. To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it and so never having been free to choose it. It makes no more sense to say that God allows creatures to damn themselves out of his love for them, or his respect for their freedom, than to say that a father might reasonably allow his deranged child to thrust her face into a fire out of a tender regard for her moral autonomy." - David Bentley Hart
Perhaps these assertions are made without a regard of how wicked the sinner is. It completely misses the fact that though we have free will, we always consciously choose to reject God before we ever come to saving faith. Regardless of how silly that might sound, it is still true. There are a few key biblical concepts that are not taken seriously in this account, though on the surface it seems pretty solid.
Christians: God loves you and won’t violate your free will Also Christians: God doesn’t send anyone to hell but we send ourselves there Last but not least: Accept the free gift of salvation or pay for your sins in hell *Not all Christians believe this but it makes up most of them*
I find it odd that people can object to the idea of hell and the consequences of sin, but at the same time freely reject a God they claim is unjust for sending them there to begin with. Good question to ask is why if you really dread eternal conscious torment, you would then knowingly reject his free gift of salvation?
Akin to saying I’m a perfectly great parent but take a belt to my infants face and body for eternity because they were born flawed compared to my ultimate perfection. That’s a sick doctrine
This is an argument appealing to emotion and not the reality of the nature of the sinner. Comparing Hitler, or a serial child rapist/killer or even you and me to a helpless infant is a great error. We are much more evil, and capable of horrendous acts against God than we can possibly imagine.
@@creatinechris It's so easy for us to think we know and could have done better than God, isn't it? We don't even have control over our own bowel movements... when we need to poop, no matter how much we struggle to hold it in, at some point you're gonna be a walking, stinking mess. Yet we think we know better than God... We need to humble ourselves. There is no good reason to exalt ourselves above God in any way. We may not like or agree with the way he does things, but we can rest assured that he is in complete control, and all of it was for good reason.
Regardless eternal torment is not a biblical doctrine anyway. When you break down all the verses in context hell is destruction that lasts forever. Perms non existence. Before was freed completely from the belief system I took about a year and did a deep dive on Hell in the Bible. It’s simply not eternal torment.
I miss the lofi hip hop intro, but I get that this probably has a larger appeal... it’s fine (the “you just have to say you’re fine when you’re not fine” meme plays in the background)
Hello John. You would be right if the traditional view of hell were true. But it is not. With the video makers permission I shall present only the facts.. (1) The words origin. It was an old anglo saxon word meaning to cover or preserve food. (no fridges in those days). Helling food meant covering it with soil or placing it in a cellar. It found its way into the Latin Vulgate, and later into KJV. (2) Most Bibles translate it from the Hebrew sheol or the Greek Hades. Both actually mean the common Grave for all mankind. It is to be noted KJV translates sheol as Hell, The pit, or the grave. (3)There is no such thing as an immortal soul or spirit. Nephesh (hebrew soul) means "a breather" and the KJV of 1611 applied it to animals as well as humans correctly since they are breathers. Ones spirit is the life source of the soul. We ARE souls, we dont have them. Ones spirit is not just the beathing process but is the food, oxygen and waste , being transported via the cardio vascular system. (4) Thus there is no hellfire. However Jesus 11 times spoke of Gehenna (English for the Greek Geena) which in turn was Jerusalems rubbish dump , known to Jews as "the Valley of Hinnom", where its fires were continually burning. Bodiies of DEAD animals were thrown there and on the odd occasion the bodies of dead criminals too. See Mark 9:48. The maggots did well there with the rotting flesh. They were deemed not to have a proper burial. (5) Jesus mostly warned the religious leaders of his day they were headed for the judgment of Gehenna, that is everlasting destruction with no hope of a resurrection. See Mat 23 for example. (6) This judgment corresponds with Revelations "Lake of fire" which also is a symbol of everlasting destruction. "the second death". No future resurrection possible.. So there is no LITERAL torment or eternal agony. The choice we all have in the finality is everlasting life or everlasting death. Our God really is loving and would never torment any of his creation any more than we would not agonise our own children with literal fire. Jesus came that we not PERISH, John 3:16, Go to DESTRUCTION Mat 7:13, or everlasting destruction 2 Thess. 1:7--10.
@@ralphgoreham3516 you Christians have an excuse for everything. You don't even believe in hell like most Christians. You guys just make it up as you go along. The whole judgment thing is immoral either way you look at it though. He's forcing us to choose something against our will that lasts for eternity, when we have never experienced eternity to fully understand it. Also, you say he wouldn't torment his creation, but he drowned literally everybody except one family during the flood. So he has definitely tormented and murdered humans before. But that's great you don't believe in hell. Most Christians do. And the fact that some Christians do and some don't shows how incoherent the religion is even to Christians. You guys need to figure this stuff out among yourselves before you talk to atheists because your religion sounds crazy when everybody has a different answer to the same question. You are all reading the same book. How are you coming to such wildly different conclusions? No other religion is so confused about it's own identity.
@@JL0007 you make good points. I have wrestled with the same thoughts. I’m a Christian for 3 reasons: 1) I watched “the most comprehensive shroud presentation” by William Guy, and it basically proves that Jesus resurrected. Scientifically. Check those out. 2) I watched Pim van Lommels lectures on near death experience studies, and I read his book. Check those out. And 3) I have experienced demonic possession, and from that point on I knew without a doubt that evil spirits exist. You can call me a liar but I’m not lying. I’m a Christian and one of the 10 commandments is to not lie. I take the Bible seriously so I don’t lie. I want to add that Christians don’t agree on many things in the Bible because it is pretty confusing to modern humans who don’t understand many of the various language nuances from the first century Judaic culture/ideologies. That’s where I resort to the work of the biblical language scholar Dr. Michael Heiser who has some really enlightening books where he wants Christians to understand how ancient Jews would think of things in the Bible, things that modern Christians don’t understand. His books are good: The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, and Supernatural. Recommend.
Just because Christian's have different opinions on the bible doesnt makes ed the bible untrustworthy. Not in the slightest!!! But I agree its shameful how as we Christian's we have changed it according to our fancies. Christianity is the hope of mankind. It is the greatest news ever. But its typical us humans fu rdd n something that is supposed to be "good news" into something twisted. Shame on us
34:33 so god is love because if you don't love him you will be tortured for all eternity and we have freewill to do so but not the ability to choose whether or not we wanted to exist in the first place? Loving him isn't a choice its a threat
@@tony1685 yes, thank you for proving my previous point. He does have a plan and for some people its hell (because he's allknowing and knows everyone's fate). You're right it is horrible and i cant imagine this being love
It's so interesting that instead of saying, "yeah your right", tony doubles down and says, "that's a horrible way of looking at...", the description of an abuser.
It's funny how the people who try to justify eternal torture usually defend the death penalty by claiming it's less cruel than a life in prison. Such a twisted morality.
"Eternal destruction" is such a fascinating term. Eternal - lasting forever without end. Destruction - Ended; ceasing to exist. What does it all mean? Several possibilities, and I don't claim to know the answer. Something to ponder, though.
Why do people care so much about the ads? Cameron needs to make money too, otherwise he’d be a wagie working 9-5 and we wouldn’t get any of this content
@@TheWorldTeacher I've seen you commenting on nearly all of Capturing Christianity's videos. I'm curious- what are YOUR beliefs, and what reasons do you have for your beliefs?
27:27 this actually makes no sense. How can heaven be more painful then hell? Even if repenting is hard how can it be worse? If it is isn't it better to stay in hell??
Maybe I just wanna fly; wanna live don't wanna die; maybe I just wanna breathe; maybe I just don't believe; maybe you're the same as me; we see things they'll never see. You and I are gonna live forever
The wicked won’t live forever, they will get destroyed forever (Psalm 92:6-7, Matthew 10:28). Human souls are not inherently immortal, God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). Immortality is given to us through Jesus Christ, now being sons of God (Luke 20:34-36, 2 Timothy 1:10). We put on immortality after the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
@@andrewdavies5414 In this verse, it is argued by traditionalists that since the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever, then it must also mean that they are burning for ever and ever. On the surface, that surely seems reasonable. However, I think we can all agree that Bible passages don’t always mean what they may appear to mean at first glance or without context. So, what are the best ways to discover the true meaning of a passage? I believe we need to: 1. Know the context of the passage 2. Compare it against the backdrop of other passages discussing the same topic (does it go against what the rest of scripture says?) 3. Figure out if the passage in question is a direct reference to another passage in which proper context is given In the case of this verse, criterion number 3 is key. In fact, the image of rising smoke, and even the claim of smoke rising forever, is in fact an Old Testament idiom that describes destruction, not ongoing burning (let alone ongoing torment). It really is that simple. We have precedent from elsewhere in scripture to see smoke rising forever as figurative of destruction, not ongoing burning. And we must allow scripture to interpret scripture. Sure, this may not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was meant the same way in Revelation 14:11. However, it certainly makes such a conclusion entirely reasonable and likely. The key passage is Isaiah 34:9-10, a prophecy against the kingdom of Edom: "Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever." You can see some key parallels to the destruction of Edom and the fate of the beast worshippers in Revelation. For example, both warnings include a declaration that the harmful, violent activity against those in view will not be stopped “night or day.” Of most significance, however, is Isaiah’s declaration that after Edom is burned and destroyed, “its smoke will go up forever.” Wait a minute; following the traditionalist logic applied to Revelation 14:11 (and it is reasonable logic on its own), if the smoke rises forever, the fire must continue burning forever. And yet, that is not the case in Isaiah! Isaiah is speaking of a kingdom that was to be destroyed. We know from history that Edom was destroyed, as Isaiah (and Obadiah) predicted. We also are all pretty sure that there is not some pit in the Middle East that is still burning to this day. How then could Isaiah be correct when he says that the smoke will rise forever? The simplest explanation is that Isaiah, probably the most poetic and hyperbolic of all the Old Testament prophets, was being figurative, perhaps relying even on an idiom that may have existed at the time. The smoke would not actually rise forever. The smoke rising was figurative of the destruction of what had been burned, so Isaiah was being really emphatic by saying the smoke would not only rise, but would rise forever. The association between destruction and rising smoke was not new to Isaiah. In Genesis 19, after Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed with burning sulfur from the heavens, Abraham looked out the next morning and saw that “the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace” (Verse 28). In the Bible’s most infamous instance of divine judgment by means of fiery death and destruction, the inspired author made sure to take note of the rising smoke ascending from the smoldering ruins. With that in mind, it makes sense that Isaiah would use the imagery of rising smoke to show the destruction of Edom. Rising smoke is a picture of a city having just been destroyed with fire. In ancient times, it would have been much more familiar imagery to the reader. And while technically, smoldering and spot fires that cause smoke are still an example of burning, that would not have been the point. The point would be to call attention to what it looks like right after the conquering hordes have left. The smoke rising emphasizes destruction, not the burning process. The smoke rising forever makes the point that Edom will never be rebuilt. It will (figuratively) always be in that state of smoldering ruins.
The question is not why a loving God would send anybody to hell (people send themselves there), the question is why anybody would choose hell over a loving God
@@TheWorldTeacher You keep posting the same arguments again and again, but you haven't yet cared for responding to my previous response to them. If you aren't interested in having a discussion about the subject, please stop inciting one on the first place, otherwise you'll just end up looking like a troll.
@@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYou It’s hard to discern what I’m saying since it’s online, but I mean forever as in there is no tomorrow, only today forever with God
The most important thing is to accept Christ as your savior. Love the Lord your God with all ur heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself." And don't die the 2nd death because THAT death is permanent and it's effects last forever.
This was so great thanks, but I think I like the videos where I can see you guys talk with gestures and everything or if the screen is just gonna be black I’d appreciate it if it had subtitles otherwise I get lost in thought
God created both heaven and hell. Yet he created hell in such a way that those who are there can and have locked him "out of hell." That is too bizarre considering that he is not only omnipresent, but also omnipotent.
Well to be fair if he forced the door open and let them out (while they were trying to fight back and keep it locked) he'd be accused of interfering with their free will and everyone would start calling inconsistencies on that doctrine again.
So basically, all this time spent arguing if Dumbledore would really meet Harry in the afterlife to help him defeat Voldemort or would he leave him to fight alone. Nothing about if the Harry Potter series is actually true or not.
@@mickeyesoum3278 But the value of this discussion has the same value as one about Harry Potter. It would be stupid to hold a belief in, and discuss the existence of, a punishment from a god that doesn't exist. You guys are over here circle-jerking about which fan-fic is canon and pretending it has cosmic value. Just admit that your religion is fiction and that all you guys are just super fans. Everyone else will leave you alone at that point and you can talk about this all day without criticism.
@@tankfu1 no, it doesn't, because there are many people who really believe in this. So it's a worthwhile video and discussion for us. You can't say the same for Harry Potter. So quit with the childish comparisons. If this is the same as Harry Potter to you, then you should just leave the channel. As a matter of fact, even asking for evidence would make you stupid in this case. I wouldn't ask for anyone to prove Harry Potter was real to me; I wouldn't waste my time with a lunatic who thinks HP is real. If you really think Christianity is comparable to a modern fantasy novel, stop wasting your and everybody's time and get outta here.
@@mickeyesoum3278 It's so interesting how for you someone is a "lunatic" if they believed that HP was real but NOT if they believe that a guy instantly materialized a few hundreds loaves of bread and fish, was killed on a crucifix but somehow revived, walked on water, visited their conception of an underworld, & floated "up" into Heaven which really would have been outer space, not that they had that conception of reality. ....Kay. The psychology of belief is not so simple my friend.
@@whatwecalllife7034 yes, and if you think an established religion and Harry Potter are on the same level, you are stupid and are missing the point. And my words would apply to you as well: maybe you should leave. I don't bother asking flat earthers for evidence because I know flatearthism is sheer lunacy. I don't bother with a flat earth at all, and wouldn't bother with "HP is real" if it were a thing. The fact you're here shows you implicitly recognize there is a difference, however ridiculous miracles might seem to you.
One of the main reasons I reject Christian Theism is because I reject Calvinism. If I take seriously the belief that God knows exactly who would go to Hell if they were to exist and He still goes ahead and brings them into existence, then all I see is Calvinism. All those who spend an eternity future with God were predestined by God to spend an eternity future with Him. And all those who suffer in Hell were predestined by God to suffer in Hell. There can be no Free Will involved. How so ? Take for example, Joe. God knew before Creation that if He were to create Joe that Joe would reject Him and go to Hell. But God still goes ahead and brings Joe into existence. Now that Joe exists in the earth, He can’t get saved because if He were to get saved then that would prove God wrong on what He believed He knew ( which was that that Joe would reject Him and go to Hell ). In Short: - If God can never be wrong, then once people exist in this earth they cannot do other than what God knew they would do. Namely, because if they did do other, then it would falsify God’s knowledge. God electing to create people whom He knew would go to Hell is none other than a predestining them to Hell. God creating these creatures ( both Angelic and Human ) whom He knew would go to Hell is the ultimate cruel act. This means, that God is not altogether Good. This means that God is not morally perfect. This means that the Ontological Argument cannot work. I reject Christian Theism because I reject a cruel God.
Well, that's not how omniscience works, at least in classical theism. Theists like Aquinas said that God doesn't know things before they happen, cause past and future don't exist for him. He "sees" all time equally. In that sense, we can say that when God creates someone he "doesn't know" that person will reject Christ and therefore go to hell, but he knows it in the future moment that is also present for him (I know it is difficult to comprehend this but I think it has its logic), so from this viewpoint free will is still plausible. Nevertheless, I also find hell to be irreconcilable with an all-loving, all-benevolent, and especially ALL-MERCIFUL God. How can eternal punishment for a finite crime be just or the creation of a merciful being? I don't think anyone even deserves that. And I know that theists say that once you're in hell you continue to sin so your crime becomes infinite too, but I mean, why did God created hell in the first place? Why did he made a place with the perfect conditions for one not to repent and suffer endlessly?
@@arcadia14 You wrote: - \\ but he knows it in the future moment that is also present for him \\ That would mean that the person who exists in Hell has always existed in Hell. Namely, because the future is always in the present for God. Therefore, on your position, God does know that a person will reject Christ and go to Hell because God’s knowledge of the person being in Hell is always in the present with Him. Your position takes free will away from God. Namely, because everything that exists and everyone that exists is in the eternal present with God. This means that God can’t refrain and not create because everything that exists is co-eternal with God. You also wrote … \\ I also find hell to be irreconcilable with an all-loving, all-benevolent, and especially ALL-MERCIFUL God \\ It is irreconcilable. Such a belief that God will subject Trillions and Trillions and Trillions of Angels and Human Beings to Everlasting Suffering and Torment is morally absurd and repugnant.
Following that pattern you can ask if Joe ends up in hell (whatever it is) will he regret his life choices, his unbelief, and will “cry” over himself and God in his mercy will pardon him. Will he truly realize his failure and mistake he made (whatever the reason) and therefore will be saved (like the thief on the cross) or will he not and therefore stays in “hell” (the separation, the self-justification) and “suffers” because of that. We are not sure what that “suffering” means - if he didn’t need God (actively) throughout his life , he doesn’t need him after, unless passively. The lake of fire varies in Christian denominations- the one with physical pain, devils etc is “popular” in Catholicism and some Protestant denominations, and is eerily similar to Egyptian beliefs. Some say that Christianity is as confusing as it can (and therefore wrong, as YHWH is not spreading confusion) yet Christ said clearly that there will be trials, there will be false prophets and false teachings- so this part also came true.
People do NOT burn forever. I want to say on behalf of Christ believing people, I'm sorry if anyone lied to you. GOD IS LOVE. He cannot allow sin to continue infinitely and he has a plan. (Also, I might add, this whole earth human experience has been 1 week of his existence. "Thousand years is as a day" in God's time. We are almost to 6,000 yr our timeline + 1,000 millennial reign of Christ=7days God's time) He has to put an end to sin or every vile thing you have heard of will keep going on. But once he burns someone up, they are gone, they do NOT keep burning. If you need to, go get a Strongs Concordance and look up all the different meanings in each location in the Bible where the word "forever" is used. There are DIFFERENT "forevers." It means the effects are irreversible, permanent and they last forever, not that people burn forever.
I just read Walls’ contribution to “Universal Salvation: The Current Debate” and wanted to hear more from his POV. He seems a rigorous and charitable philosopher. I’ll check out his book on the logic of damnation shortly.
He is a credentialed PHD that, using his own words, he has written about hell predominantly from the views from a book written by CS Lewis. CS Lewis is not a trained theologian....he is a very creative writer. If Jerry were to take the time to understand that man is not immortal until he finds himself in Christ risen and those people only will live forever as a gift, then the thoughts of eternal suffering would soon leave ones belief. Salvation then would be understood as a gift of immortality rather than an avoidance of eternal suffering.
Freedom / free will is always the weak point in these discussions. No rejection of God is fully sane, so it's not fully free. "Hell-fire" is "God-fire" (Heb 12:29) and is the same as Purgatory-fire (purging from sin, error, darkness). It's a restorative fire, burning away everything that would hinder a person from freely choosing God (the only possible fully free choice). The "ages of ages" (eis toùs aionas ton aiṓnōn) in biblical language implies horizons of God's love and mercy that we just can't conceive of yet. But, given that "God is love" (1 Jn. 4:16), and God is always triumphant and accomplishes all he means to, we know none of his creatures will finally be lost.
@@lukabarisic7080 what's DBH? Have a great day! God Bless! Stay strong, stay safe and take care of yourselves! Wishing everyone the best! Jesus loves you! May the Holy Spirit guide you! 😇 💗🕊 Cheers to a better year buddy! 💞🥂🍻
@@jaymason8352 I can never understand they humans always feel that a god is always right and can never be questioned. I just goes to show it’s a man made invention.
@@LM-jz9vh A.) Nobody argues that. That's such a mischaracterization strawman doesn't even begin to describe it B.) Not relevant to the subject or anything I said
@@DavM310 You commented on atheist arguments and I made a comment that theists frequently make an argument their god exists because their books of bronze and iron age myths say so. And you should be emotionally shocked at the horrors performed or commanded by Yahweh.
I haven’t watched the video yet, but I think it depends on what is meant by loving (or love). Point is, depending on that definition, you might be able to be all-loving, but not necessarily all-good. So if the definition encompasses all things good, then I don’t see how it even makes sense for an all good god to send people to suffer for the rest of eternity. It’s far more merciful to not have them at all. No longer existing. That said, it might be possible to have infinite pain, as Apologetics Squared mentioned, 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + ... = infinity Day 1: hard slap, day 2: half that original pain, day 3: a third of that original pain, and so on. Which means the pain could potentially add up to infinite pain over time but won’t be continuous. So if we re talking constant, continuous stream of pain, then I don’t think it’s possible. Otherwise, with non-continuous given pain, it might be possible. Also, here’s a link to the Apologetics Squared video if you want to see it: th-cam.com/video/d35V1dlJ3gg/w-d-xo.html
So if you can leave hell by just repenting, can't everyone leave hell? And if anyone can leave at anytime what's the point of caring about it when you're alive?
@Jose its just weak. If you're trying to convince someone to love a god they can't prove exists or else they'll go to a place that isn't that bad but similar to earth, they'll more than likely choose hell. Especially if they can "repent" whenever and go to heaven
@@TheWorldTeacher IT IS TIME THAT YOU GO AND DO SOMETIMES ELSE THAN COMMENTING ON ALMOST EVERY COMMENT FROM CAMERON'S VIDEOS... DO SOMETHING USEFUL INSTEAD....
There's a 25 year old dude I believe last year on TH-cam already explained what hell was basically the same thing the rich man described it as from the bible
This man has his good and evil all mixed up. Should God be punished for making mankind without enough intelligence to eat from the tree of life first thing? How about creating man with enough intelligence to be dangerous? How about punishing later generations of people for something they were not responsible for? No this guy is defending an obviously man made concept and it is a good thing he is not God.
On my phone I don’t see any people on my screen!! No people??just constant flames of fire!! Wish that you would get it off the screen!!! Gives me the creeps!!!!
Points of correction 1: Things of God do not suppose to make sense. It is by faith that we accept the things written in the Bible. We can not use our senses or Logic to prove their Validity. 2: God sends no one to Hell. The choice of heaven or hell, depends on the individual, and it is a free will. Thank you.
Being away from God leads to death and destruction, not eternal torture. For eternal torture, God would have to be present in order to uphold the torture machinery. Christians believe that God still upholds the universe in its existence.
Look forward to listening to this - I have yet to hear a solid defence of the traditional idea of eternal torment, in fact it is the defences of the view that make me convinced of conditional immortality.
To my mind, conditional immortality (CI) suffers from pretty much the same problems as eternal conscious torment (ECT), the only substantial difference being that CI doesn't portray God as a sadistic torturer but simply as a euthanasist, which is significantly less emotionally troubling. But I think the philosophical problems are the same. Take the problem of justice; it is objected to ECT that it is unjust as it punishes finite creatures who are only capable of finite harm with infinite harm, yet CI arguably also punishes finite creatures infinitely, as to annihilate a creature (or to fail to preserve a creature in existence as a punishment) is an infinite punishment as it forever deprives that creature of the eternal happiness that was possible for them. Annihilation is thus an infinite loss, an infinite harm, which seems unjust as it seems it cannot be proportionate to a finite creature's crimes and guilt. Now, not all proponents of ECT justify the existence of hell as a just punishment, but instead as a case of God's respect for the rational freedom of the creature to cut itself of from God's goodness. The problem here is that such a choice of hell, or a choice of something that leads to hell, cannot be rational or free as no one properly informed of the terms of the choice and in their right mind could choose against God's goodness and in favour of hell. This is because according to traditional Christian teaching humans are designed to find their happiness and fulfilment in God, and someone who chooses against what their own nature directs them towards as good, is not, to that extent, a rational or free agent. So the free will defence of ECT seems to fail. Now, proponents of CI may also wish the to explain or justify the annihilation of creatures not as a just punishment, but as a case of God respecting creatures freedom. But then you see immediately that the freewill defence of CI fails for the same reason as it does in the case of ECT. No informed agent acting rationally could choose annihilation over God because in so doing they are choosing against their own ultimate happiness. The only difference is that in the one case the agent chooses to consciously suffer and in the other he chooses to not exist, which makes no relevant difference as regards the rationality of the choice. So just like in the justice defence, so also in the freewill defence; ECT and CI seem to face the same philosophical problems.
@@thetasteofwater918 I'm a supporter of CI. The thing about sin is that it leads intrinsically to separation of God and the sinner. Sin is against the laws of life, against the character of God. It is therefore not possible for a unrepentant sinner to have life. If God made such a person immortal, it would violate His character and the law of life. Additionally, it wouldn't be fair for the other creatures who overcame sin, to still be surrounded by sinners acting against the laws of life and inflicting suffering in their environment for all eternity. At some place in time sin must stop.
I agree with Jerry Walls that Calvinism is false, but as far as Hell goes, I agree with people like Robin Parry that Christ-centered Universal salvation is the most likely outcome in the end.
@@axolotl5327 God uses sin to show us how he is loving and merciful he is with us. It's because of sin that God stepped in as man and died for our sins to forgive us so we can go to heaven. That's something that God didn't give the angels who sinned against him.
Is there a timestamp on the core justification for a loving god to torture people for eternity? I don't want to sit through 52 minutes to hear it. Also, I wonder if the guest has pondered the possibility that, hypothetically, if Islam is correct and, as the Q'uran states, _he_ will be sent to Hell for not accepting the Q'uran, would he claim that that is consistent with a loving Allah? Or is it only justified if his religion is correct and he's going to Heaven?
Because it’s obvious that’s what nonbelievers want, I mean he’s given each and everyone of us a way out yet putting your faith in Christ is too much for some people that they would rather not
It's not that it's too much, it's just that I don't see a reason to believe that it's true, and putting my faith in something I don't believe in isn't just something I can do volontarily, no matter what the alleged stakes are. At least speaking for myself that is.
Well what about those who die as babies, or the aborted or miscarried? THEY could not put their “faith in Christ “ ; THEY were not given a “way out” . Is hell full of babies then? Furthermore, what about those who lived before Christ? What about those born into cultures where they never hear of Christ? Are they condemned simply because of the timing or geography of their birth?
You don't really believe that God will send people to a place of eternal punishment, do you? How will you enjoy heaven if you know many people you know are being tortured eternally in the basement? If you did believe it you'd be screaming from the rooftops warning everyone you meet about it are you? Have you ever really considered what even a few minutes in a place like that would be like?
@@creatinechris Hello, my friend. I used to be an atheist myself, so I feel I can help you here. I noticed a few implications from your comment. Based on your complaint and last sentence, your problem here doesn’t seem to be based on the notion of God’s existence, but on God’s reasoning. You see, God gave us free will. What that means is that God cannot make us in such a way to bend to only Him and His will. This is what we call the “puppet master god fallacy.” God was never supposed to be your puppeteer. He loves us, and He actually loves us so much that He is willing to give us so much freedom. If you don’t want to be with God, and you truly don’t seek eternity with Him, then that’s fine. You will be able to express that in purgatory. God won’t force you to be with Him, in that case. As you’ve expressed here, you don’t respect God’s reasoning and you don’t like Him for it. If the love isn’t mutual, God cannot force you at His side. Unfortunately, that leaves with the alternatives of Purgatory, a state in between Heaven and Hell, and, of course, Hell. If you cannot come to reconcile in Purgatory, then your soul is out of God’s hands, and you as a lost soul, easy for the Devil to take. God doesn’t constantly come down, nor should He have to. If you can write off the biblical events of Jesus and His coming as anecdotal, untrustworthy, and too hard to believe, then why would you suddenly start believing if He came before the world. After all, within a few decades, it could all be written off as a falsified story, made to keep us all in line... What is it that would make you believe in God?
@@creatinechris Indeed, God is omniscient. However, given that He exists within a realm beyond space and time, this omniscience is likely not as simple and straightforward as we may think of it to be. God can view an infinite array of outcomes, which is where we get into the foreknowledge debacle. Foreknowledge does not entail predestination, neither does it predetermine events. God views the future in such an infinite lens, our human brains, limited by concepts of space and time, likely cannot comprehend it, or His omniscience as is. So yes, God is omniscient, but this omniscience goes beyond the barriers of space and time. I feel this is an important distinction to make, as we often view such abstract matters in a rather one dimensional perspective, whereas God employs an endless amount of foresight, given that He has no limits.
@@creatinechris Firstly, I would like you to elaborate on His logical inconsistencies, and explain how He hasn’t demonstrated His existence. Also, by what criteria do you measure the latter with?
@@creatinechris Also, I would like to inquire as to what your exact spiritual views are, given that it will give me context into your perspective and hopefully help us both understand each other.
@@creatinechris God sees all possibilities and paths you may take in your pursuit of nutrition tomorrow morning, and whatever you select will not end up surprising Him, given that it was a rather easily predictable facet of existence. If you were to be in His position, would you not agree?
Because He LOVES His Sheep soooooooo much He does not want them spending eternity with wicked people!!!!! For those going to Heaven this is the closest you will get to HELL. For those going to HELL this is the closest you will get to heaven! John 3:16 Rev 3:16
But again the person chooses to go to hell and the person chooses to go to heaven. It’s simple God won’t force you to spend eternity with him if you want to be separated from God it’s your choice and that’s where hell is complete separation from God
@@trustme7660 It started out like gangreen in the Church back during the time of the Disciples and it comes from Calvanists. Luke Warm people that love their sin.
it's not gymnastics it's the nature of choice you choose relationship or your separated away. That's true even now. If you can't get past what ever thing is separating you, then in the end that's your choice
There is no amount of jesuitical casuistry that can square a loving God with eternal damnation. None. So these cynical theologians should stop even trying, they can NEVER succeed.
Does a non Euro-Christian black person like me have to repent and be subjugated to non blacks believers and "theologians"? Or should we just agree we are enemies?
If it helps you (which if it does, should tell you that you really need Jesus Christ in your heart) Jesus is considered by many, perhaps even most, as not being white. Also, probably the first group of believers outside of Jerusalem were the Ethiopians, and they are still one of the oldest groups of Christians in the world. God is no respecter of persons, He created us all, and He is the God of everyone; black, white, brown, yellow and red -- rich, poor, and everyone in between. I pray that you can come to believe in Jesus Christ and understand His salvation by grace and faith, and realize that He died for all of us. For God so Loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. Come to Jesus Christ my brother, and you will have peace. 🙏✝️🙏
@@sammcrae8892 Thank you for the beautiful sentiment expressed in your post above. I can tell that you really wish for me to understand the value of Jesus himself. The reason why I stated that Christianity is a pro European story, is that it was used as a tool to unify the fractured Roman empire during the reign of Constantine. My sub Saharan dark black kinki haired yòrùbá people of West Africa had no connection to any part of the Christian world, and we were certainly not a part of the Roman Empire at all. Our yòrùbá spiritual system has been in existence for over ten thousand years. In fact, my own DNA test clearly reveals that I am 99.7% from that specific area of West Africa. The DNA also reveals that my people moved to West Africa about ten thousand five hundred years ago, directly from the savanna of Africa, further corroborating the time line of my people's spiritual system and confirming my dark black people had no connection to your eurasian Roman constructed Christianity. The question that continues to baffle me is why the continued desire for non blacks, especially European Christians to wish for black people's minds and "bodies" be submitted to white leaders (or non black) and their Jesus. That seems strange to me. And everywhere we go, there is some non black Christian believer (even now many stupid uninformed black sellout so-called Christians) are lurking around preaching their garbage at black people, knowing they are merely taking advantage of the black mind and bodies. I don't think you realize how disturbing it is for black people dragging their people to kneel, worship and grovel at the feet of white or non black Jesus. It is so sick and demeaning. It also means we, black people, have no respect for our ancestors and our traditions, and cannot be respected in the world. Even if you do not respect our traditions, at least we should respect our own. However, we now have sellouts who are raising self hating black populations who give up their minds and bodies to be used for slavery by non blacks. These black bodies now do the corporate-contracted cheap labor in prisons. The Christian believing the labor is at least a step up from slavery. It is one thing for stupid non black institutions to try and coerce black people into accepting the Christian black-is-the-bottom of the pecking order Christianity, but when individuals like yourself can't see the damage that your euro-cultural religion has done to others, I'm stunned. Rather than trying to get black people to surrender to the whims of Euro-Christianity, I think you should begin coming to terms with human equality and human autonomy. Without doing that, there is no amount of Christian oppression or proselytizing that will unite our world. It won't happen. The interpretations and doctrines formulated and used to practice the faith were very European leaning. Even today, the concentrated head of the church, the interpreters and the standard bearers and shapers are European/Westerners. Ethiopian Christianity does not function in the same way as we have Christianity in the West. It was not a hammer used to crush non Adherents gullible nails. Again, thank you for your reaching out. As for me, I cannot see the benefit of a black African grovelling to fit into Christianity that loathes my people. Btw, Islam has very similar degrading view of my black peoples, and they too have been as brutal if not worse. Both of these faiths are dangerous for the world. They are awful human spirit and human bodies killing machines. They are both bad.
God does not put people in hell he doesn't want anybody to go there it is people who make the wrong choices they put themselves there by turning their back on him by rejecting him people put themselves into hell by making wrong decisions and choices
Why would it make sense for people to go to hell for not believing something or making a wrong choice? What does being in hell even accomplish? It doesn't make anything better or create justice or have any actual purpose.
"Thus says The Lord: Behold, the corrupt doctrines of the churches of men have crept into every corner; near and far, the doctrine of hell and eternal torment is embraced by the people. Yet I tell you the truth, this doctrine is a loathsome spot on every garment worn in the name of truth! A detestable wrinkle within the tapestry of My glory! A horrible interwoven thread by which those who call of themselves Christian pollute My name and mar My image before the people, propagating that which came forth from the mouth of the dragon! THIS DOCTRINE IS EVIL! And must be opposed by all who have received the love of the Truth. For I have indeed spoken to this generation, even as I have spoken in all times past. For I AM THE LORD, The Light in whom there is no darkness at all." ~ "Thus says The Lord: Little flock, how is it you say within yourselves the way of The Lord is not equal? How is it you feel as though upon this servant I have poured a bounty, yet you remain desolate? Beloved ones, by whose power were you called forth into existence? To whose joy were you created? By whose favor were you born into this world by way of water and blood? Therefore, again I say to you, who you choose is everything. For I do not withhold My love, yet on account of your flesh you do always step backward. Consider the woman who touched My robes and was made whole. Tell Me, how is it that she received and you do not? Was she so highly favored, that she should receive and you should not? Beloved, come close and walk beside Me, for you are indeed highly favored! And all who grab hold of Me shall surely share in all that is Mine. Little flock, My ways are equal, yet the ways of My people remain unequal. For I have indeed poured out My life for you, yet each one must decide how deeply they drink. Do you not see? My blessings are equal for all who receive of My blessings, and My grace sufficient for all who trust in Me. Thus among those who come to Me, one is not favored over another, nor is My love bestowed by measure. Rather it is you who receive by measure, resisting on account of all these deceitful weights, trust which remains altogether lacking. Therefore do not confuse My love with the calling I have purposed for another, nor compare the gifts of the Spirit with The Blessing. For those I have called to serve shall indeed be given gifts, each in accordance with their faith and My will. And those who receive the greater gifts shall also bear the greater burden, even in the heat of the Day. Therefore, again I say to you, The Lord’s ways are indeed equal, Yet the ways of men remain unequal... Yet those who grab hold of their First Love With all their heart, with all their mind, With all their strength and with all their soul, Shall never go hungry, nor shall they thirst anymore; Nor shall the heat of the noonday Sun do them any harm... Yea, even all their tears shall be wiped away In the house of The Lord." trumpetcallofgod.com
For those who are living according to the flesh are intent on the things of the flesh, but those who are living according to the Spirit are intent on things of the Spirit. For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. Romans 8:5-8
Except that’s not true. It’s only seemingly true from the mindset of a religious zealot. It actually doesn’t even make logical sense if you break it down rationally. I used to be just like you and toss verses like that around. They make perfect sense when you are completely possessed by the Christian thought process. But in reality, make no sense at all.
The great part about your channel name is you can keep using it after you realise Christianity isn't true. You might want to change the slogan though, just a couple letters should do the trick "BTW Christianity isn't true".
I have always thought(and still do) the word/term "Hell" originated west of the Sea of Galilee, north of Tel Dor... From the ancient neolithic city Yiftahel(aka Hell), wiped out from a Tsunami or comet impact(?) thousands of years ago.. Your video with Dr. Walls from last week, "Hitler in Heaven?"(th-cam.com/video/22O-lspFoUc/w-d-xo.html) where you two seem to assert that Hitler could very well be in Heaven, along with this video's mention of Hell being created by mere mortals here on Earth as a means to control/convert the masses really leads one to the rule you have used in other past videos.. Occam's razor.
I don't think it has to be interpreted as intellectual in the sense of opposed to 'dumb' or 'unintelligent', but rather it's a description of the general process of argumentation in favour of the Christian worldview through philosophy, theology, science, etc.
@@Apanblod I’ve seen Muslims do the exact same thing. If people really want to be seriously intellectual about their beliefs they should take a genuine look at what they believe from the standpoint of an outsider. Believers are way too invested in their beliefs to honestly appraise them. Very few have the ability to step outside their beliefs and question if what they believe is actually true.
@@AD-en5dq I think it applies to “religious thought” in general, not just Christianity. I’ve seen Muslims attempt do the same thing. If believers were capable of stepping outside their beliefs and looking at them , then they might see their own beliefs as others see them.
@@myopenmind527 I think you have a valid point with the 'outsider test' (or rather the lack thereof) when it comes to beliefs of that kind. But I think that's a separate topic. I think muslim apologists could equally describe their efforts as presenting the intellectual side of Islam without that being an oxymoron, as I don't understand the word 'intellectual' to describe the 'quality' of the conclusion, but rather the process itself.
@@JacobDMcGrew , I didn’t count. I was too busy experiencing advertising purgatory, or maybe hell. It was over the top anyway. I’m finding that the Billionaires of the world are getting greedier by the day. If it’s Camron’s doing he’s going to lose viewership.
God does not send them, they choose to go. You choose to accept Christ or not. Very simple. IF you never hear the Gospel God, being just, makes provision (see Romans 2).
Well, if I were absolutely sure that God exists, and that sin is a real thing that he hates and will punish, and that he loves me, then I would OBVIOUSLY accept Christ. The problem is Christians want people to believe that somehow a book written by men many many centuries ago is a proof of those claims I adressed before.
I think hell is a possible outcome, though it's more probable that everyone will eventually be saved (after purgatory, the suffering will be proportionate to your sins).
@@TheWorldTeacher in a nutshell, evil actions that alienate us from God, our fellow humans, and the virtuous lives we are called to live. Murdering, stealing, cheating, deceiving, lying, abusing, being hateful, lacking compassion, avoiding to act accordingly, all that.
@@TheWorldTeacher of course I don't agree; our entire reality is evidence of God, unless you think personhood can arise out of impersonal elements, which is downright insane to me and simply contradicts the proportionality of causality that is assumed in every scientific endeavor. Just like how you can't get blood out of a turnip, as it has no blood to give, you can't get consciousness out of non-consciousness, rationality out of irrationality or thought out of non-thought. The ultimate source of all reality must contain all powers within itself, which is why any impersonal foundation is a ridiculous idea that doesn't properly explain the ultimate question of existence.
@@mickeyesoum3278 I'm not sure how to put it but if God is the ultimate source of all reality which includes consciousness and 'material objects,' does that mean God is also impersonal? Is that what the principle of proportionate causality means?
@@TheWorldTeacher I disagree with the idea that the foundational reality can even in principle be impersonal, and you haven't answered that. First of all, the first paragraph reeks of pantheism, and this is a problem since we are contingent beings, while the ultimate reality or the Absolute is necessary and unchanging. Secondly, as we all derive from the ultimate Foundation, which is the source of all reality, this Foundation must itself be personal since no effect can be greater than the total cause. It would be ridiculous to think the Ultimate Mind doesn't know itself - is therefore ignorant - while we somehow have the power to know ourselves through the self-reflexivity of thought. Again, unless you think personhood can come out of impersonal elements, there's no avoiding a Personal Foundation. This is *NOT* to say that God is "just" a big person, rather He is Personhood itself, unlimited. But He does have personal powers, as He does have Intellect, Will, and every power present in creation - which ultimately originates from Him, the eternal source. So I'm not convinced. I insist on a personal God as the only appropriate source of all reality. And not only does it explain consciousness, intelligence, intentionality, personhood, etc., but it also explains the overarching order that is present in reality. This is not a realm of chaos, but of harmony and order - which, again, make sense under the idea that the ultimate reality is personal.
@@Kalypso24 no, because "impersonhood" is not a real power or attribute; it just is the absence of personhood. A rock doesn't have some positive power of "not being conscious", it just lacks consciousness. Every power must be present in the ultimate source of things, but while thinking is a power, "not thinking" is obviously not a power, but a mere lack. The medievals called the basic, positive (in the sense of real, affirmative) attributes "perfections". From the original sense of the word, that which is complete, not incomplete.
God sending people to hell who never heard of Jesus is morally bankrupt. Also, those who lived before Jesus, they had to believe in some God? Trust some god? Why could they not do this today? Christian universalism is the only answer to all of this, that God gives them a chance in eternity to accept Jesus, we already have Jesus showing Himself to people all around the world in dreams and visions and near death experiences, why not in total death experiences? The Bible no where ways you have to accept Jesus before you die, it says the gospel was preached to the dead, God says He wants all saved, He says all will one day eventually BE saved, nothing is impossible with God, mercy triumphs over judgement, His mercy endures forever, His wrath is but for a moment, the good shepherd seeks the one lost UNTIL He finds them, God is love...
THIS IS THE BAD PLACE! This is literally hell. We're being psychologically, physically, and emotionally tortured. Made all the worse because we are meant to believe that this is natural life. There's a Loki style trickster deity that inspired all these religions and experiences that conflict with one another and lead to suffering. He gives people spiritual experiences to convince them of various religions but doesn't make any of them clearly true. All hail Trickster Deity or suffer the next worse version of hell upon your death!
I’ve found that the people most outraged by the idea of hell are people who don’t like being held responsible for nasty behaviour and want to keep having everything their own way with zero consequences and zero consideration for anyone else.
@@LouisaWatt I have nothing against the idea of evil being punished. But what I hate about the biblical interpretation of hell is that it isn't about punishing sin. It is about punishing those who do not believe the bible.
@@OMGUKILLKENNY2 not exactly, but I see what you're saying. It's more to do with removing "rebellion" from heaven. Satan formed a rebellion against God because he believed himself equal rather than acknowledging that he had faults or limitations. Imagine going up to the creator of the whole universe and demanding equal status, then if it is not granted, essentially having a narcissistic meltdown and attempting to turn everyone else against the creator. I don't know if you've ever met people like that, but they will attempt to burn your entire life to the ground if they can't have their own way, regardless of how unreasonable it might be. That's why souls which are fundamentally opposed to God cannot be allowed in. Think of it like a form of dreadful plague and our life on earth is like a form of quarantine to see if we can overcome the illness and be allowed back into the disease-free zone. If we actually chose the sickness over the cure, then we can't be saved.
@@LouisaWatt Doesn't change the fact that not believing some book as fact is punishable with eternal sufferings. If Hell's purpose was purely about Satan and his rebellion, then why does god just allow any non-Christian soul to suffer there as well. If an 8 year old Hindu boy steals a candy bar and is hit by a bus, does he deserve to suffer for all of existence just because he thought the stories of Shiva were cooler then the stories of Jesus?
If that were true, those people would be ignorant and not able to fully understand the consequences of their actions. In which case they deserve sympathy, not damnation. We don't torture children for not understanding things they are ignorant of.
@@Jockito Have you ever pondered what is sin ? It is a deliberate choice of choosing evil over good. It is this choice that sends people to hell because of this deliberate choice. A child takes money from the parent's wallet. Its not theft because the child may think they belong to a family and a family shares things. But if I were to take money from your wallet, I have made an informed deliberate choice to steal from you. This is sin.
@@theoskeptomai2535 My experience of Him. For example i don't know if you are a bot or a real human being or even what you claim to be on social media. I know you when I come to know about you personally and experience the real you.
The wages of sin is death not an eternal burning fire now i do believe in hell the lake if fire but the bible does not teach that those that are lost will be cast into an unending lake of fire, should not perish but have everylasting life, notice the lost perish they are tormented in hell unending, the idea that god will burn those that reject him in an unending hell is not scriptural now the bible does teach about hell but but god will burn up those that rejects his grace an they will go out of existance.
@@trustme7660 Why care about what you (or anyone else) does while on earth then? If everyone will be judged equally and are saved no matter what, I don't see a reason to care about anything. And this is an honest question, I never understood the reasoning behind it.
Everyone are sinners. Jesus died for everyone. Of course everyone will be saved, not unless Jesus death was only good for a portion of humanity But let’s say that is the case, then everyone can agree that Jesus death and resurrection was for certain people. Which would also mean that "Jesus isn’t the savior of the world" but the savior of some people. It would also mean that Jesus isn’t "reconciling the world to himself" but only a portion of it
@@VeNeRaGe An ever-burning hell afterlife is something absorbed from Roman and Greek traditions. It is never described and is actually countered by many theologians. Those are non-sequitur questions. You are equating stuff that IS biblical that people don't practice to something that isn't biblical at all that people do believe in.
I have no idea why TH-cam thought it was a good idea to automatically place 17 ads in the video. I've gone in and manually edited them to a normal amount (three). Sorry about that, everyone.
Hahaha 😂 oh man. Thanks Cameron. Interesting perspectives. Good interviewing.
I have always thought(and still do) the word/term "Hell" originated west of the Sea of Galilee, north of Tel Dor... From the ancient neolithic city Yiftahel(aka Hell), wiped out from a Tsunami or comet impact(?) thousands of years ago..
Your video with Dr. Walls from last week, "Hitler in Heaven?"(th-cam.com/video/22O-lspFoUc/w-d-xo.html) where you two seem to assert that Hitler could very well be in Heaven, along with this video's mention of Hell being created by mere mortals here on Earth as a means to control/convert the masses really leads one to the rule you have used in other past videos.. Occam's razor.
Go Premium!
@S Gloval nope. Broken record that thinks he is everyone's master. Weird dude for sure
Idk, man, 17 ads seems hellish to me. Fits the video! 🤣
Pro tip: skip to the end of the video, click the restart button, and the ads disappear.
Thankyou good sir
Thank you kind sir. I shall name my first-born Backwardsman95.
Bless you!
You are doing God’s work sir.
How many ads are there? I have premium so I don't know. I'll probably be cancelling it soon so it will be good to know in advance.
How could an all loving TH-cam creator allow us to suffer with so many ads?
Atheist: *ADBLOCKER*
Greedy...
@@TheWorldTeacher I’m an atheist but shutup
@QQminusS If you're implying God failed to create a perfect world, that is incorrect.
God created a perfect world but he decided to give authority and responsibility to man so that they could reflect his image. God is giving man responsibility and therefore making man responsible for the outcome. When man does something bad, he attempts to reject his responsibility in places it back on God so we can blame God for the outcome. Man has failed and has ever since tried to place the responsibility back on God so that he can be blamed for man's decisions with the authority given to them.
@QQminusS I'm a Christian who recognizes that the physical things in this world were created by things which do not appear and to focus solely on the things of this life is a deception.
The eternal things are not physical and unseen, but those are the things which are the truth, and the temporal of this life is not the ultimate truth.
I also believe that there are two ultimate ways to the spiritual realm, through means by God through Jesus, or through Satan.
If Jesus is not acknowledged, then it is through Satan. One perceives their view is correct because they are indeed able to access the spiritual world, but it is not through God, but because one does have experience of the supernatural, he believes his belief is the truth when it is not. Jesus is The Truth.
We are not our own god and we were not created to become a god, we were created to to love and serve God, and to be loved by God, and from this union conform into the image of Christ.
@QQminusS I perceive you understand something of the spiritual...
James 1: 23-25
23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13¶And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
No one would choose to be tormented forever. And it's definitely not ethical to force someone to believe something unknowable in order to avoid being tormented forever.
None of us know if there is heaven or hell. Certainly the traditional concept of hell is NOT compatible with a loving God, no matter how many mental gymnastics people go through to "explain" it.
You don't have to believe in anything unknowable. You have to believe in Jesus, who is very real and very knowable.
@@aubergineontoast haha, nope. I don't HAVE to believe in anything just because you say so.
@@SapphirePanorama dont believe it just because I say it. Look into it! Do you're due diligence and investigate whether Jesus life, death, and resurection actually happened. I think you'll be suprised!
@@SapphirePanorama dont believe it because I say so, believe it because its true! Do the research hombre 😎👍
Answer, god doesn’t. There is no eternal punishment, non lake of fire, no substitutionary atonement. The earth is not 6000 years old, there was no Adam and Eve. There was no global flood 4000 years ago. This is why Christianity is so frustrating to me now after having been a believer for decades. I am not an atheist.
You are exactly in my shoes.
No Adam and Eve, no Atonement, no need for Jesus to suffer and die on the cross.
@@Timmeh_The_tyrant well at least we won’t be alone in hell, I will have you two with me, feeling better about it already 😬
The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in some tortuture facility.
Who claims otherwise is either mislead or evil.
I don't think claiming otherwise makes one evil but mislead that's entirely possible.
Ironically you're the misleading one here by mischaracterizing what death meant in that context.
@@Mr.Goodkat
I meant that if one is not mislead than one is spreading this cruelest idea imaginable on purpose, which is an evil thing to do i.m.o.
@@leonardu6094
Oh, right, death, destruction, to perish, burned up like chaff, etcetera, suddenly means something else regarding the wages of sin...
But it can't be eternal life either, even if it is, right?
@@forwardsdrawkcab No, just physical death. As in sin brought on physical death. We weren't initially created to die, that came as a result of the fall (Sin). Are you christian?
*BETTER QUESTION* - Would an all-knowing / all-loving God create humans that will go to hell?
We have Free Will. Hell is when humanity chooses to reject God and his plan for our lives. God doesn’t create us to go to hell, he created us to be in union with him in eternal happiness. Free will is a necessary component of that though. God desires each and every person to know and love him and reach heaven, but there are those who reject him and choose not to follow him. God is all knowing, but we still hold and possess free will to choose God or not to.
@@bansheebrethren797 Great! Let's look through some questions:
1 - Does a baby who dies in the womb go to heaven or hell? You can be specific here on what you believe. I don't know if you believe in inhalation or eternal conscious torment or limbo.
I think this outlines a scenario when a being doesn't have a chance to use free will.
2 - Does God know if someone will go to heaven or hell? If so, could God choose to not create this particular human?
3 - Does God have a plan? If so, can humans go against God's plan? If not, how do we have free will when we can't take an action.
4 - Do we have free will in Heaven? If free will is required to choose to love God, it seems we would have free will.
5 - Given we have free will in Heaven, can we sin in Heaven? If we can't sin in Heaven or don't want to sin in Heaven, why can't God make us this way on Earth to begin with?
I look forward to your thoughts on these questions.
@@malirk 1. Tbh I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject but what I do know is that God is just, and we can trust his judgement. This very situation expresses the need for baptism as soon as possible as it cleanses the soul of Original sin and actual sin. This is the Catholic belief anyhow.
2. I would say that he can know all the possibilities of our lives and where that lead us. He knows every result, but still gives us the free will. He knows we have a choice because he gave us a choice. God allows us to choose and doesn’t predestine anyone to hell and at the moment of creation, they are not predestined to hell. God wants us all to go to heaven and actively works towards that end, whether we accept and cooperate in that work is up to us. God loves us, but love requires free will from both parties. God loves us infinitely, but we have to choose to love him as well. This is the best answer I can give in regards to this question.
3. Yea God has a plan, and yes people can go against it. The book of genesis displays this, humanity lived in in perfect harmony with God, in original justice and original holiness but this is lost because Adam and Eve use their free will to go against that plan after listening to the serpent/Satan. Humans definitely can go against God’s plan and there are for sure instances of that happening every day. For instance, I would say al instances of Abortion go against God’s plan. Our free will once again provides us the opportunity to choose God or not to.
4. Yes you do have free will in heaven, free will is a characteristic of our souls and thus stays with us for eternity. How does this interact after death? I am not s knowledgeable on the subject, so I will refrain from an answer so as to not say anything incorrect. Sorry.
5. Can we sin in heaven? The answer is no because we are purified of our concupiscence, the inclination to sin, before we enter into heaven. Heaven is ultimate happiness with God forever, and since God is ever holy, any stain of sin cannot be present and we are purified to where that sin or inclination to sin is no longer present. As for the next part of this question, I am once again not able to give an amazing answer. These are some really good questions and I’m not a theologian lol. God just making us that “perfect like In heaven” I would say is a dictatorship. We would be robots. That reality you speak of, eliminates free will. We have a choice as did Adam and Eve. Making us do whatever he wants all the time, with no choice, is not love. I’m sorry if this answer is disappointing so please forgive me.
@@bansheebrethren797
1 - However, what happens to a baby that isn't born or dies immediately on birth? Where do these babies go? They never used free will. This points out the issue saying that God has to give us free will because some people never utilize free will.
Let's just get right to a big point:
*Yes you do have free will in heaven ... Can we sin in heaven? The answer is no because we are purified*
You've just clearly stated that we can have free will and not sin. Thus God could have created us purified to begin with and we would still have free will and choose not to sin.
This fixes the whole situation.
Think through it.
@@malirk yes you have free will in heaven, but because heaven is not like the world we live in now, it is outside of time and many other metaphysical things, it’s impact is very different. Yes we have free will in heaven, as free will is a characteristic of our soul, but we already made the choice. All throughout our life and At our death, that is when we make our choice. Again I’m not a theologian, so please take my replies with a grain of salt. Reality after death is not something the human mind can truly replicate or simulate. Free Will then manifests itself in a very different way. From my understanding, we make our choice by our lives and the final word is when we die, there There are no other choices after that. This would mean that our free will is present still but not interacted with I suppose. Once again I’m not a theologian. In regards to babies dying and etc. Saints and other theologians have entertained the idea of limbo, but it is not a doctrine formally decreed by the Catholic Church. We entrust those souls the infinite mercy and justice of God. We do not and cannot know their eternal fates. I suggest reading St Thomas Aquinas, I cannot direct you to any specific works of his that may answer your questions, but he is very thorough and is able to get into the metaphysical stuff.
If god is all-knowing that means he knows everything that will ever happen which means he knows who will go to hell before they are conceived. So some people where CREATED to burn in hell. How is he loving again?
Do you know how God knows that they are going to hell? Because he saw them make those choices, not that created them in a way to force them into hell.
I think you are confused on the fact of God being timeless. God knows everything before they happened because he is not dependent on time. He is the source of time. So events happen for him different than how they will happen for us. So by that logic. Yes God does know your future however he didn't force your future. Hope that makes sense
@@edwin6146 no this doesn't make sense. If he knows im going to hell with certainty BEFORE im conceived I can't do anything about it
@@jaymason8352 You're confusing God's will with his self being independent from time. He didn't create you with purpose of going to hell or heaven. He gave you free will to either accept salvation or reject it. He knows your future again because he is independent of time. He created time. So events occur differently from God how they occur for us. He literally knows the future because it has already happened for him. Hence... Timeless
@@edwin6146 you're contradicting yourself. If he knows the future i can't escape it. If he knows im going to hell there is no point in me existing. I cant change fate. I used to say the exact same thing until i realized it didn't make any sense
Neither the idea of hell nor eternal torment are found anywhere in properly translated Scripture (if you see any references to either one, you’re reading a badly translated Bible). The apostle Paul is very clear that Christ was successful and that everyone will eventually experience salvation, despite what misguided religionists might claim. The judgements in Scripture are actually talking about various different things altogether from what most people have assumed.
That was a circumcision verse, not an uncircumcision verse, and like most of those verses, it isn’t saying quite what most people assume it is. It’s important to interpret Scripture based on a knowledge of what it means to rightly divide the word of truth. Regardless, the fact that everyone will eventually experience salvation is based 100% on Scripture. It’s what Paul clearly taught. If you really aren’t familiar with this truth, I wrote about it at christianheretic.com/nochurch (in the first three chapters).
@RetroMan Can any text really speak for itself? Doesn't it at least need a reader that makes sense of it? Once one of my students Stated, 'but the Bible saus...', after which I asked the class to be silent, put my Bible to my ears and said 'but I don't hear anything...?' How much we hold the Bible in high regard and even when we believe its composition was divinly inspired, it is us fallible humans who make sense of it. We make the Bible speak and by doing so necessarily infuse it with our own voice. Which might explain for the large variety of interpretations. I would applaud People who would say: 'As I see it, the Bible means to say..' instead of arguing that a text, especially such an multilayered text as this holy book, could ever speak for itself...
What about the people before Christ
@RetroMan You need to learn how to read the bible properly.
I'll just throw this out here:
"Currently, the most popular way of defending the notion of an eternal torment is an appeal to creaturely freedom and to God’s respect for its dignity, but there could scarcely be a poorer argument-whether it’s made crudely as by William Lane Craig or elegantly by Eleonore Stump, it is going to fail. It wouldn’t if we could construct a metaphysics or phenomenology of the will’s liberty that was purely voluntarist, purely spontaneous, though even then we would have to explain how an absolutely libertarian act, obedient to no rationale whatsoever, would be distinguishable from sheer chance or mindless organic or mechanical impulse, and so any more free than an earthquake or embolism. But on any cogent account, free will is a power inherently purposive, teleological, primordially oriented towards the good and shaped by that transcendental appetite to the degree that a soul can recognize the good for what it is. No one can freely will the evil as evil. One can take the evil for the good, but that doesn’t alter the prior transcendental orientation that wakens all desire. To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it and so never having been free to choose it. It makes no more sense to say that God allows creatures to damn themselves out of his love for them, or his respect for their freedom, than to say that a father might reasonably allow his deranged child to thrust her face into a fire out of a tender regard for her moral autonomy."
- David Bentley Hart
I love it when dbh owns evangelicals 😁
@RetroMan Strange. I thought the bible said God loved us and sought us while we were still his enemies.
Why does god seem to have human characteristics?
@@myopenmind527 God doesn't, but yhwh the demons does.
Perhaps these assertions are made without a regard of how wicked the sinner is. It completely misses the fact that though we have free will, we always consciously choose to reject God before we ever come to saving faith. Regardless of how silly that might sound, it is still true. There are a few key biblical concepts that are not taken seriously in this account, though on the surface it seems pretty solid.
Christians: God loves you and won’t violate your free will
Also Christians: God doesn’t send anyone to hell but we send ourselves there
Last but not least: Accept the free gift of salvation or pay for your sins in hell
*Not all Christians believe this but it makes up most of them*
Christians: Atheism is the most depressing thing ever!
Also Christians: Noone is good, not one. All of our best deeds are but filthy rags before God.
th-cam.com/video/tiYf6ITgWbk/w-d-xo.html - the Christian understanding of hell
The average person would never condemn anyone to pain for ETERNITY... How is it that us imperfect humans are more loving than god?
I find it odd that people can object to the idea of hell and the consequences of sin, but at the same time freely reject a God they claim is unjust for sending them there to begin with. Good question to ask is why if you really dread eternal conscious torment, you would then knowingly reject his free gift of salvation?
@@leonardu6094 that’s a presupposition based argument
@@orangesoul4289 What do you mean by that?
That's one hell of a good point, Zach!
That is clearly not true considering humans invented the concept of eternal torture.
Akin to saying I’m a perfectly great parent but take a belt to my infants face and body for eternity because they were born flawed compared to my ultimate perfection. That’s a sick doctrine
Yeah, i agree.....its distrusting the way these people dance around this problem and try to rationalize it.
This is all just victim blaming
This is an argument appealing to emotion and not the reality of the nature of the sinner. Comparing Hitler, or a serial child rapist/killer or even you and me to a helpless infant is a great error. We are much more evil, and capable of horrendous acts against God than we can possibly imagine.
@@creatinechris It's so easy for us to think we know and could have done better than God, isn't it? We don't even have control over our own bowel movements... when we need to poop, no matter how much we struggle to hold it in, at some point you're gonna be a walking, stinking mess. Yet we think we know better than God... We need to humble ourselves. There is no good reason to exalt ourselves above God in any way. We may not like or agree with the way he does things, but we can rest assured that he is in complete control, and all of it was for good reason.
It is a sick doctrine.
I don’t believe it.
I’m a Christian though.
Regardless eternal torment is not a biblical doctrine anyway. When you break down all the verses in context hell is destruction that lasts forever. Perms non existence. Before was freed completely from the belief system I took about a year and did a deep dive on Hell in the Bible. It’s simply not eternal torment.
I miss the lofi hip hop intro, but I get that this probably has a larger appeal... it’s fine (the “you just have to say you’re fine when you’re not fine” meme plays in the background)
It's not the eternal torment for finite crimes itself, it's the fact that YOU call that "loving" because I would call that evil or cruel or unfair.
Hello John. You would be right if the traditional view of hell were true. But it is not. With the video makers permission I shall present only the facts.. (1) The words origin. It was an old anglo saxon word meaning to cover or preserve food. (no fridges in those days). Helling food meant covering it with soil or placing it in a cellar. It found its way into the Latin Vulgate, and later into KJV. (2) Most Bibles translate it from the Hebrew sheol or the Greek Hades. Both actually mean the common Grave for all mankind. It is to be noted KJV translates sheol as Hell, The pit, or the grave. (3)There is no such thing as an immortal soul or spirit. Nephesh (hebrew soul) means "a breather" and the KJV of 1611 applied it to animals as well as humans correctly since they are breathers. Ones spirit is the life source of the soul. We ARE souls, we dont have them. Ones spirit is not just the beathing process but is the food, oxygen and waste , being transported via the cardio vascular system. (4) Thus there is no hellfire. However Jesus 11 times spoke of Gehenna (English for the Greek Geena) which in turn was Jerusalems rubbish dump , known to Jews as "the Valley of Hinnom", where its fires were continually burning. Bodiies of DEAD animals were thrown there and on the odd occasion the bodies of dead criminals too. See Mark 9:48. The maggots did well there with the rotting flesh. They were deemed not to have a proper burial. (5) Jesus mostly warned the religious leaders of his day they were headed for the judgment of Gehenna, that is everlasting destruction with no hope of a resurrection. See Mat 23 for example.
(6) This judgment corresponds with Revelations "Lake of fire" which also is a symbol of everlasting destruction. "the second death". No future resurrection possible.. So there is no LITERAL torment or eternal agony. The choice we all have in the finality
is everlasting life or everlasting death. Our God really is loving and would never torment any of his creation any more than we would not agonise our own children with literal fire. Jesus came that we not PERISH, John 3:16, Go to DESTRUCTION Mat 7:13,
or everlasting destruction 2 Thess. 1:7--10.
@@ralphgoreham3516 you Christians have an excuse for everything. You don't even believe in hell like most Christians. You guys just make it up as you go along. The whole judgment thing is immoral either way you look at it though. He's forcing us to choose something against our will that lasts for eternity, when we have never experienced eternity to fully understand it. Also, you say he wouldn't torment his creation, but he drowned literally everybody except one family during the flood. So he has definitely tormented and murdered humans before. But that's great you don't believe in hell. Most Christians do. And the fact that some Christians do and some don't shows how incoherent the religion is even to Christians. You guys need to figure this stuff out among yourselves before you talk to atheists because your religion sounds crazy when everybody has a different answer to the same question. You are all reading the same book. How are you coming to such wildly different conclusions? No other religion is so confused about it's own identity.
@@JL0007 you make good points. I have wrestled with the same thoughts. I’m a Christian for 3 reasons:
1) I watched “the most comprehensive shroud presentation” by William Guy, and it basically proves that Jesus resurrected. Scientifically. Check those out.
2) I watched Pim van Lommels lectures on near death experience studies, and I read his book. Check those out.
And 3) I have experienced demonic possession, and from that point on I knew without a doubt that evil spirits exist. You can call me a liar but I’m not lying. I’m a Christian and one of the 10 commandments is to not lie. I take the Bible seriously so I don’t lie.
I want to add that Christians don’t agree on many things in the Bible because it is pretty confusing to modern humans who don’t understand many of the various language nuances from the first century Judaic culture/ideologies.
That’s where I resort to the work of the biblical language scholar Dr. Michael Heiser who has some really enlightening books where he wants Christians to understand how ancient Jews would think of things in the Bible, things that modern Christians don’t understand. His books are good: The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, and Supernatural.
Recommend.
Just because Christian's have different opinions on the bible doesnt makes ed the bible untrustworthy. Not in the slightest!!! But I agree its shameful how as we Christian's we have changed it according to our fancies. Christianity is the hope of mankind. It is the greatest news ever. But its typical us humans fu rdd n something that is supposed to be "good news" into something twisted. Shame on us
@@andrewdavies5414 So do you agree there is no hellfire or do I give you more evidence that our choice is everlasting death or everlasting life?
34:33 so god is love because if you don't love him you will be tortured for all eternity and we have freewill to do so but not the ability to choose whether or not we wanted to exist in the first place? Loving him isn't a choice its a threat
@@tony1685 you missed the point
@@tony1685 its what the video talks about and i have read the bible
@@tony1685 yes, thank you for proving my previous point. He does have a plan and for some people its hell (because he's allknowing and knows everyone's fate). You're right it is horrible and i cant imagine this being love
It's so interesting that instead of saying, "yeah your right", tony doubles down and says, "that's a horrible way of looking at...", the description of an abuser.
@@whatwecalllife7034 yeah he made that judgment himself. I just described Christianity
The big problem is people blame God instead of themselves for their choices and actions
It's funny how the people who try to justify eternal torture usually defend the death penalty by claiming it's less cruel than a life in prison. Such a twisted morality.
"Eternal destruction" is such a fascinating term. Eternal - lasting forever without end. Destruction - Ended; ceasing to exist. What does it all mean? Several possibilities, and I don't claim to know the answer. Something to ponder, though.
Why do people care so much about the ads? Cameron needs to make money too, otherwise he’d be a wagie working 9-5 and we wouldn’t get any of this content
Oh Jacob. Bless you my child.
This will be very interesting!
@@TheWorldTeacher bro why do I always see you asking this question to almost every single video???? Go do something else lol!
@@TheWorldTeacher I've seen you commenting on nearly all of Capturing Christianity's videos.
I'm curious- what are YOUR beliefs, and what reasons do you have for your beliefs?
@@TheWorldTeacher Could you answer my question for me please? What are your beliefs? You clearly aren't a theist in the traditional sense of the term.
@@TheWorldTeacher Answer the question again. Be more clear this time.
@@TheWorldTeacher I’m a man actually 👍
27:27 this actually makes no sense. How can heaven be more painful then hell? Even if repenting is hard how can it be worse? If it is isn't it better to stay in hell??
So basically, heaven or hell. You gonna live forever.
Maybe I just wanna fly; wanna live don't wanna die; maybe I just wanna breathe; maybe I just don't believe; maybe you're the same as me; we see things they'll never see. You and I are gonna live forever
The wicked won’t live forever, they will get destroyed forever (Psalm 92:6-7, Matthew 10:28). Human souls are not inherently immortal, God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). Immortality is given to us through Jesus Christ, now being sons of God (Luke 20:34-36, 2 Timothy 1:10). We put on immortality after the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:53-54).
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
@@andrewdavies5414 In this verse, it is argued by traditionalists that since the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever, then it must also mean that they are burning for ever and ever.
On the surface, that surely seems reasonable. However, I think we can all agree that Bible passages don’t always mean what they may appear to mean at first glance or without context. So, what are the best ways to discover the true meaning of a passage? I believe we need to:
1. Know the context of the passage
2. Compare it against the backdrop of other passages discussing the same topic (does it go against what the rest of scripture says?)
3. Figure out if the passage in question is a direct reference to another passage in which proper context is given
In the case of this verse, criterion number 3 is key. In fact, the image of rising smoke, and even the claim of smoke rising forever, is in fact an Old Testament idiom that describes destruction, not ongoing burning (let alone ongoing torment).
It really is that simple. We have precedent from elsewhere in scripture to see smoke rising forever as figurative of destruction, not ongoing burning. And we must allow scripture to interpret scripture. Sure, this may not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was meant the same way in Revelation 14:11. However, it certainly makes such a conclusion entirely reasonable and likely.
The key passage is Isaiah 34:9-10, a prophecy against the kingdom of Edom:
"Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever."
You can see some key parallels to the destruction of Edom and the fate of the beast worshippers in Revelation. For example, both warnings include a declaration that the harmful, violent activity against those in view will not be stopped “night or day.”
Of most significance, however, is Isaiah’s declaration that after Edom is burned and destroyed, “its smoke will go up forever.” Wait a minute; following the traditionalist logic applied to Revelation 14:11 (and it is reasonable logic on its own), if the smoke rises forever, the fire must continue burning forever. And yet, that is not the case in Isaiah!
Isaiah is speaking of a kingdom that was to be destroyed. We know from history that Edom was destroyed, as Isaiah (and Obadiah) predicted. We also are all pretty sure that there is not some pit in the Middle East that is still burning to this day. How then could Isaiah be correct when he says that the smoke will rise forever?
The simplest explanation is that Isaiah, probably the most poetic and hyperbolic of all the Old Testament prophets, was being figurative, perhaps relying even on an idiom that may have existed at the time. The smoke would not actually rise forever. The smoke rising was figurative of the destruction of what had been burned, so Isaiah was being really emphatic by saying the smoke would not only rise, but would rise forever.
The association between destruction and rising smoke was not new to Isaiah. In Genesis 19, after Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed with burning sulfur from the heavens, Abraham looked out the next morning and saw that “the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace” (Verse 28). In the Bible’s most infamous instance of divine judgment by means of fiery death and destruction, the inspired author made sure to take note of the rising smoke ascending from the smoldering ruins.
With that in mind, it makes sense that Isaiah would use the imagery of rising smoke to show the destruction of Edom. Rising smoke is a picture of a city having just been destroyed with fire. In ancient times, it would have been much more familiar imagery to the reader. And while technically, smoldering and spot fires that cause smoke are still an example of burning, that would not have been the point. The point would be to call attention to what it looks like right after the conquering hordes have left. The smoke rising emphasizes destruction, not the burning process. The smoke rising forever makes the point that Edom will never be rebuilt. It will (figuratively) always be in that state of smoldering ruins.
@@andrewdavies5414 nice silly try. do some research before posting bible verses, see if anyone was able to respond to them before... lol
The question is not why a loving God would send anybody to hell (people send themselves there), the question is why anybody would choose hell over a loving God
A loving god wouldn't send people to hell. Your mind is twisted and depraved and you have no concept of love.
Time doesn’t exist in the reality with God, so forever still means forever
@@TheWorldTeacher
You keep posting the same arguments again and again, but you haven't yet cared for responding to my previous response to them. If you aren't interested in having a discussion about the subject, please stop inciting one on the first place, otherwise you'll just end up looking like a troll.
Could you explain how you make the jump from God not existing in time to forever meaning forever?
@@TheWorldTeacher what? I’m not reading all of that, but God loves you
@@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYou It’s hard to discern what I’m saying since it’s online, but I mean forever as in there is no tomorrow, only today forever with God
Those in hell are supposedly separated from God though. So forever doesn’t mean forever for them, by your logic.
The most important thing is to accept Christ as your savior. Love the Lord your God with all ur heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself." And don't die the 2nd death because THAT death is permanent and it's effects last forever.
This was so great thanks, but I think I like the videos where I can see you guys talk with gestures and everything or if the screen is just gonna be black I’d appreciate it if it had subtitles otherwise I get lost in thought
Doodle when you're listening, that way you keep focused, or have a pen and paper and make simple notes. Xx
God created both heaven and hell. Yet he created hell in such a way that those who are there can and have locked him "out of hell." That is too bizarre considering that he is not only omnipresent, but also omnipotent.
We in Hell welded the door shut. Don’t want do gooders coming in to gate crash the party.
Seems like a "Modern" Idea, which verse in the bible states this?
@@creatinechris let’s keep the do gooders out. They would only Spoil the party. 😂
Well to be fair if he forced the door open and let them out (while they were trying to fight back and keep it locked) he'd be accused of interfering with their free will and everyone would start calling inconsistencies on that doctrine again.
So basically, all this time spent arguing if Dumbledore would really meet Harry in the afterlife to help him defeat Voldemort or would he leave him to fight alone. Nothing about if the Harry Potter series is actually true or not.
There are hundreds of videos dedicated to the truth claim; this one is not. Stupid complaint.
@@mickeyesoum3278 But the value of this discussion has the same value as one about Harry Potter. It would be stupid to hold a belief in, and discuss the existence of, a punishment from a god that doesn't exist. You guys are over here circle-jerking about which fan-fic is canon and pretending it has cosmic value. Just admit that your religion is fiction and that all you guys are just super fans. Everyone else will leave you alone at that point and you can talk about this all day without criticism.
@@tankfu1 no, it doesn't, because there are many people who really believe in this. So it's a worthwhile video and discussion for us. You can't say the same for Harry Potter. So quit with the childish comparisons.
If this is the same as Harry Potter to you, then you should just leave the channel. As a matter of fact, even asking for evidence would make you stupid in this case. I wouldn't ask for anyone to prove Harry Potter was real to me; I wouldn't waste my time with a lunatic who thinks HP is real. If you really think Christianity is comparable to a modern fantasy novel, stop wasting your and everybody's time and get outta here.
@@mickeyesoum3278 It's so interesting how for you someone is a "lunatic" if they believed that HP was real but NOT if they believe that a guy instantly materialized a few hundreds loaves of bread and fish, was killed on a crucifix but somehow revived, walked on water, visited their conception of an underworld, & floated "up" into Heaven which really would have been outer space, not that they had that conception of reality.
....Kay.
The psychology of belief is not so simple my friend.
@@whatwecalllife7034 yes, and if you think an established religion and Harry Potter are on the same level, you are stupid and are missing the point. And my words would apply to you as well: maybe you should leave. I don't bother asking flat earthers for evidence because I know flatearthism is sheer lunacy. I don't bother with a flat earth at all, and wouldn't bother with "HP is real" if it were a thing. The fact you're here shows you implicitly recognize there is a difference, however ridiculous miracles might seem to you.
One of the main reasons I reject Christian Theism is because I reject Calvinism. If I take seriously the belief that God knows exactly who would go to Hell if they were to exist and He still goes ahead and brings them into existence, then all I see is Calvinism.
All those who spend an eternity future with God were predestined by God to spend an eternity future with Him. And all those who suffer in Hell were predestined by God to suffer in Hell. There can be no Free Will involved. How so ?
Take for example, Joe. God knew before Creation that if He were to create Joe that Joe would reject Him and go to Hell. But God still goes ahead and brings Joe into existence. Now that Joe exists in the earth, He can’t get saved because if He were to get saved then that would prove God wrong on what He believed He knew ( which was that that Joe would reject Him and go to Hell ).
In Short: - If God can never be wrong, then once people exist in this earth they cannot do other than what God knew they would do. Namely, because if they did do other, then it would falsify God’s knowledge.
God electing to create people whom He knew would go to Hell is none other than a predestining them to Hell. God creating these creatures ( both Angelic and Human ) whom He knew would go to Hell is the ultimate cruel act. This means, that God is not altogether Good. This means that God is not morally perfect. This means that the Ontological Argument cannot work.
I reject Christian Theism because I reject a cruel God.
Exactly right. You can't be all-knowing then act surprise when things go exactly how you planned
Well, that's not how omniscience works, at least in classical theism. Theists like Aquinas said that God doesn't know things before they happen, cause past and future don't exist for him. He "sees" all time equally. In that sense, we can say that when God creates someone he "doesn't know" that person will reject Christ and therefore go to hell, but he knows it in the future moment that is also present for him (I know it is difficult to comprehend this but I think it has its logic), so from this viewpoint free will is still plausible.
Nevertheless, I also find hell to be irreconcilable with an all-loving, all-benevolent, and especially ALL-MERCIFUL God. How can eternal punishment for a finite crime be just or the creation of a merciful being? I don't think anyone even deserves that. And I know that theists say that once you're in hell you continue to sin so your crime becomes infinite too, but I mean, why did God created hell in the first place? Why did he made a place with the perfect conditions for one not to repent and suffer endlessly?
@@arcadia14 You wrote: - \\ but he knows it in the future moment that is also present for him \\
That would mean that the person who exists in Hell has always existed in Hell. Namely, because the future is always in the present for God. Therefore, on your position, God does know that a person will reject Christ and go to Hell because God’s knowledge of the person being in Hell is always in the present with Him.
Your position takes free will away from God. Namely, because everything that exists and everyone that exists is in the eternal present with God. This means that God can’t refrain and not create because everything that exists is co-eternal with God.
You also wrote …
\\ I also find hell to be irreconcilable with an all-loving, all-benevolent, and especially ALL-MERCIFUL God \\
It is irreconcilable. Such a belief that God will subject Trillions and Trillions and Trillions of Angels and Human Beings to Everlasting Suffering and Torment is morally absurd and repugnant.
Following that pattern you can ask if Joe ends up in hell (whatever it is) will he regret his life choices, his unbelief, and will “cry” over himself and God in his mercy will pardon him. Will he truly realize his failure and mistake he made (whatever the reason) and therefore will be saved (like the thief on the cross) or will he not and therefore stays in “hell” (the separation, the self-justification) and “suffers” because of that. We are not sure what that “suffering” means - if he didn’t need God (actively) throughout his life , he doesn’t need him after, unless passively. The lake of fire varies in Christian denominations- the one with physical pain, devils etc is “popular” in Catholicism and some Protestant denominations, and is eerily similar to Egyptian beliefs. Some say that Christianity is as confusing as it can (and therefore wrong, as YHWH is not spreading confusion) yet Christ said clearly that there will be trials, there will be false prophets and false teachings- so this part also came true.
@@PDoodek The crux and heart of what I have written focuses upon God’s cruel and immoral behavior and not the creatures cruel and immoral behaviour.
People do NOT burn forever. I want to say on behalf of Christ believing people, I'm sorry if anyone lied to you.
GOD IS LOVE. He cannot allow sin to continue infinitely and he has a plan. (Also, I might add, this whole earth human experience has been 1 week of his existence. "Thousand years is as a day" in God's time. We are almost to 6,000 yr our timeline + 1,000 millennial reign of Christ=7days God's time)
He has to put an end to sin or every vile thing you have heard of will keep going on. But once he burns someone up, they are gone, they do NOT keep burning. If you need to, go get a Strongs Concordance and look up all the different meanings in each location in the Bible where the word "forever" is used. There are DIFFERENT "forevers." It means the effects are irreversible, permanent and they last forever, not that people burn forever.
I just read Walls’ contribution to “Universal Salvation: The Current Debate” and wanted to hear more from his POV. He seems a rigorous and charitable philosopher. I’ll check out his book on the logic of damnation shortly.
Love you Cameron brother keep it up
Dear religious people, it’s fake, all of it. Now grow up and enjoy your life.
How much money did that fedora cost?
He is a credentialed PHD that, using his own words, he has written about hell predominantly from the views from a book written by CS Lewis. CS Lewis is not a trained theologian....he is a very creative writer. If Jerry were to take the time to understand that man is not immortal until he finds himself in Christ risen and those people only will live forever as a gift, then the thoughts of eternal suffering would soon leave ones belief. Salvation then would be understood as a gift of immortality rather than an avoidance of eternal suffering.
Freedom / free will is always the weak point in these discussions. No rejection of God is fully sane, so it's not fully free. "Hell-fire" is "God-fire" (Heb 12:29) and is the same as Purgatory-fire (purging from sin, error, darkness). It's a restorative fire, burning away everything that would hinder a person from freely choosing God (the only possible fully free choice). The "ages of ages" (eis toùs aionas ton aiṓnōn) in biblical language implies horizons of God's love and mercy that we just can't conceive of yet. But, given that "God is love" (1 Jn. 4:16), and God is always triumphant and accomplishes all he means to, we know none of his creatures will finally be lost.
I was looking for a DBH inspired comment. Good to find something sensible among all the simplistic comments.
@@lukabarisic7080 what's DBH?
Have a great day!
God Bless! Stay strong, stay safe and take care of yourselves! Wishing everyone the best! Jesus loves you! May the Holy Spirit guide you! 😇 💗🕊
Cheers to a better year buddy! 💞🥂🍻
Why did God even make us and put us in garden of eden because he knew that we were going to sin and fall away???
Pamela Kautz Because he was bored, so he created his own horror movie - even gods must get their entertainment somehow !
Maybe it was because _we_ didn't know we were going to sin and fall away?
@Jose You mean why would he make us and give us a choice?
Jose Excellent logic - but unfortunately, logic and reason are alien concepts among the god squad !
Nobody fell away. Humans have elvolved along with an ever evolving morality. Hell is in an immoral concept.
"Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!"
If there is free will and no sin or pain in heaven, then God can create a heaven on earth with free will and no pain!!!
What would the earth look like if there were no god?
What differences would we expect to see?
@@myopenmind527 now that's an excellent question. Like wise what would the Universe look like with or without a god of the gaps.
No, not enough pain. God needs to see more pain
@@jaymason8352 I can never understand they humans always feel that a god is always right and can never be questioned. I just goes to show it’s a man made invention.
@@zonda1968 so if God wasnt always right and could be questioned it would show He is not a man made invention?
Atheist arguments in this comment section:
1.) Bad analogies
2.) Appeals to emotion
Theist arguments. God exists because muh holey book says so.
@@LM-jz9vh A.) Nobody argues that. That's such a mischaracterization strawman doesn't even begin to describe it
B.) Not relevant to the subject or anything I said
@@DavM310 You commented on atheist arguments and I made a comment that theists frequently make an argument their god exists because their books of bronze and iron age myths say so.
And you should be emotionally shocked at the horrors performed or commanded by Yahweh.
I haven’t watched the video yet, but I think it depends on what is meant by loving (or love). Point is, depending on that definition, you might be able to be all-loving, but not necessarily all-good. So if the definition encompasses all things good, then I don’t see how it even makes sense for an all good god to send people to suffer for the rest of eternity.
It’s far more merciful to not have them at all. No longer existing. That said, it might be possible to have infinite pain, as Apologetics Squared mentioned,
1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + ... = infinity
Day 1: hard slap, day 2: half that original pain, day 3: a third of that original pain, and so on.
Which means the pain could potentially add up to infinite pain over time but won’t be continuous. So if we re talking constant, continuous stream of pain, then I don’t think it’s possible. Otherwise, with non-continuous given pain, it might be possible.
Also, here’s a link to the Apologetics Squared video if you want to see it: th-cam.com/video/d35V1dlJ3gg/w-d-xo.html
@Jose True. We get all the punishment we “need” here.
So if you can leave hell by just repenting, can't everyone leave hell? And if anyone can leave at anytime what's the point of caring about it when you're alive?
@Jose Why not?
@@Mr.Goodkat in conclusion: hell is too lit
@Jose so, it's not bad at all?? You do realize this is a weak argument to make when trying to convince someone to pick heaven over hell right?
@@jaymason8352 He's not making an argument to convince someone to pick heaven over hell, he's explaining why someone might choose hell.
@Jose its just weak. If you're trying to convince someone to love a god they can't prove exists or else they'll go to a place that isn't that bad but similar to earth, they'll more than likely choose hell. Especially if they can "repent" whenever and go to heaven
Man, this is littered with ads. really takes me out of the conversation.
How many add breaks were there? I have TH-cam Premium so I don't see any. Curious what is considered too much.
@@JacobDMcGrew
15 or 16 ad breaks. 😖😖😖
Lots of ads
Cameron is greedy
I didn’t place these ads, TH-cam did.
@@TheWorldTeacher IT IS TIME THAT YOU GO AND DO SOMETIMES ELSE THAN COMMENTING ON ALMOST EVERY COMMENT FROM CAMERON'S VIDEOS... DO SOMETHING USEFUL INSTEAD....
There's a 25 year old dude I believe last year on TH-cam already explained what hell was basically the same thing the rich man described it as from the bible
This man has his good and evil all mixed up. Should God be punished for making mankind without enough intelligence to eat from the tree of life first thing? How about creating man with enough intelligence to be dangerous? How about punishing later generations of people for something they were not responsible for? No this guy is defending an obviously man made concept and it is a good thing he is not God.
On my phone I don’t see any people on my screen!! No people??just constant flames of fire!! Wish that you would get it off the screen!!! Gives me the creeps!!!!
I think that's the point. Fire and brimstone preaching.
Yeah that's all the vid is.
Would have been an intriguing choice if they had put that fire image over themselves talking... of course they wouldn't want to make the implication
Points of correction 1: Things of God do not suppose to make sense. It is by faith that we accept the things written in the Bible. We can not use our senses or Logic to prove their Validity. 2: God sends no one to Hell. The choice of heaven or hell, depends on the individual, and it is a free will. Thank you.
Shameless add placement. A couple is cool, but this is crazy
How can being away from God and his love be like hell? Everyone must be in hell right now because God does not exist.
Being away from God leads to death and destruction, not eternal torture. For eternal torture, God would have to be present in order to uphold the torture machinery.
Christians believe that God still upholds the universe in its existence.
@@chris-nj3vg Christianity has been the cause of the most death and destruction on the planet in it's history.
Universalism is the way to go.
Universalism is the foundation of Christ
Look forward to listening to this - I have yet to hear a solid defence of the traditional idea of eternal torment, in fact it is the defences of the view that make me convinced of conditional immortality.
Hell is eternal... Don't lie...
People are going to suffer forever and I love this! I want all bad people to really suffer ! - traditionalists (lul)
To my mind, conditional immortality (CI) suffers from pretty much the same problems as eternal conscious torment (ECT), the only substantial difference being that CI doesn't portray God as a sadistic torturer but simply as a euthanasist, which is significantly less emotionally troubling.
But I think the philosophical problems are the same. Take the problem of justice; it is objected to ECT that it is unjust as it punishes finite creatures who are only capable of finite harm with infinite harm, yet CI arguably also punishes finite creatures infinitely, as to annihilate a creature (or to fail to preserve a creature in existence as a punishment) is an infinite punishment as it forever deprives that creature of the eternal happiness that was possible for them. Annihilation is thus an infinite loss, an infinite harm, which seems unjust as it seems it cannot be proportionate to a finite creature's crimes and guilt.
Now, not all proponents of ECT justify the existence of hell as a just punishment, but instead as a case of God's respect for the rational freedom of the creature to cut itself of from God's goodness. The problem here is that such a choice of hell, or a choice of something that leads to hell, cannot be rational or free as no one properly informed of the terms of the choice and in their right mind could choose against God's goodness and in favour of hell. This is because according to traditional Christian teaching humans are designed to find their happiness and fulfilment in God, and someone who chooses against what their own nature directs them towards as good, is not, to that extent, a rational or free agent. So the free will defence of ECT seems to fail.
Now, proponents of CI may also wish the to explain or justify the annihilation of creatures not as a just punishment, but as a case of God respecting creatures freedom. But then you see immediately that the freewill defence of CI fails for the same reason as it does in the case of ECT. No informed agent acting rationally could choose annihilation over God because in so doing they are choosing against their own ultimate happiness. The only difference is that in the one case the agent chooses to consciously suffer and in the other he chooses to not exist, which makes no relevant difference as regards the rationality of the choice.
So just like in the justice defence, so also in the freewill defence; ECT and CI seem to face the same philosophical problems.
@@thetasteofwater918 I'm a supporter of CI.
The thing about sin is that it leads intrinsically to separation of God and the sinner. Sin is against the laws of life, against the character of God. It is therefore not possible for a unrepentant sinner to have life. If God made such a person immortal, it would violate His character and the law of life. Additionally, it wouldn't be fair for the other creatures who overcame sin, to still be surrounded by sinners acting against the laws of life and inflicting suffering in their environment for all eternity. At some place in time sin must stop.
@@chris-nj3vg And why can God not induce everyone to repentance and stop sin that way?
@@thetasteofwater918 Because God is love. Love requires free will.
I agree with Jerry Walls that Calvinism is false, but as far as Hell goes, I agree with people like Robin Parry that Christ-centered Universal salvation is the most likely outcome in the end.
44:48 transformation that changes our sinful dispositions
Do we know why God chose to give us sinful dispositions in the first place?
It's called free will
@@sally9352. Free will lets us *indulge* our sinful dispositions, but it's not the same as the dispositions themselves.
@@axolotl5327 God uses sin to show us how he is loving and merciful he is with us. It's because of sin that God stepped in as man and died for our sins to forgive us so we can go to heaven. That's something that God didn't give the angels who sinned against him.
Chris Very well put.
@Jose good question
This entire conversation is barking mad. That grown men should believe such childish nonsense boggles the mind.
Is there a timestamp on the core justification for a loving god to torture people for eternity? I don't want to sit through 52 minutes to hear it. Also, I wonder if the guest has pondered the possibility that, hypothetically, if Islam is correct and, as the Q'uran states, _he_ will be sent to Hell for not accepting the Q'uran, would he claim that that is consistent with a loving Allah? Or is it only justified if his religion is correct and he's going to Heaven?
19:48 - the nub of it is God doesn't punish people with hell forever, they keep themselves there by not softening their hearts once in hell.
@@TheWorldTeacher I was summarising, not agreeing. I'm an atheist, but ease up little, pal.
@@TheWorldTeacher No.
Because it’s obvious that’s what nonbelievers want, I mean he’s given each and everyone of us a way out yet putting your faith in Christ is too much for some people that they would rather not
It's not that it's too much, it's just that I don't see a reason to believe that it's true, and putting my faith in something I don't believe in isn't just something I can do volontarily, no matter what the alleged stakes are.
At least speaking for myself that is.
Well what about those who die as babies, or the aborted or miscarried? THEY could not put their “faith in Christ “ ; THEY were not given a “way out” . Is hell full of babies then?
Furthermore, what about those who lived before Christ? What about those born into cultures where they never hear of Christ? Are they condemned simply because of the timing or geography of their birth?
You don't really believe that God will send people to a place of eternal punishment, do you? How will you enjoy heaven if you know many people you know are being tortured eternally in the basement? If you did believe it you'd be screaming from the rooftops warning everyone you meet about it are you? Have you ever really considered what even a few minutes in a place like that would be like?
He obviously knows everything that will happen before we do it!! So why the garden in the first place???
@@creatinechris Hello, my friend. I used to be an atheist myself, so I feel I can help you here.
I noticed a few implications from your comment. Based on your complaint and last sentence, your problem here doesn’t seem to be based on the notion of God’s existence, but on God’s reasoning.
You see, God gave us free will. What that means is that God cannot make us in such a way to bend to only Him and His will. This is what we call the “puppet master god fallacy.” God was never supposed to be your puppeteer. He loves us, and He actually loves us so much that He is willing to give us so much freedom.
If you don’t want to be with God, and you truly don’t seek eternity with Him, then that’s fine. You will be able to express that in purgatory. God won’t force you to be with Him, in that case. As you’ve expressed here, you don’t respect God’s reasoning and you don’t like Him for it. If the love isn’t mutual, God cannot force you at His side. Unfortunately, that leaves with the alternatives of Purgatory, a state in between Heaven and Hell, and, of course, Hell. If you cannot come to reconcile in Purgatory, then your soul is out of God’s hands, and you as a lost soul, easy for the Devil to take.
God doesn’t constantly come down, nor should He have to. If you can write off the biblical events of Jesus and His coming as anecdotal, untrustworthy, and too hard to believe, then why would you suddenly start believing if He came before the world. After all, within a few decades, it could all be written off as a falsified story, made to keep us all in line...
What is it that would make you believe in God?
@@creatinechris Indeed, God is omniscient. However, given that He exists within a realm beyond space and time, this omniscience is likely not as simple and straightforward as we may think of it to be.
God can view an infinite array of outcomes, which is where we get into the foreknowledge debacle. Foreknowledge does not entail predestination, neither does it predetermine events.
God views the future in such an infinite lens, our human brains, limited by concepts of space and time, likely cannot comprehend it, or His omniscience as is.
So yes, God is omniscient, but this omniscience goes beyond the barriers of space and time. I feel this is an important distinction to make, as we often view such abstract matters in a rather one dimensional perspective, whereas God employs an endless amount of foresight, given that He has no limits.
@@creatinechris Firstly, I would like you to elaborate on His logical inconsistencies, and explain how He hasn’t demonstrated His existence. Also, by what criteria do you measure the latter with?
@@creatinechris Also, I would like to inquire as to what your exact spiritual views are, given that it will give me context into your perspective and hopefully help us both understand each other.
@@creatinechris God sees all possibilities and paths you may take in your pursuit of nutrition tomorrow morning, and whatever you select will not end up surprising Him, given that it was a rather easily predictable facet of existence.
If you were to be in His position, would you not agree?
I wonder how many here believe Ravi Zacharias is in hell and how many think he’s just dead because death is final?
Post you answer below.
He is on an island in the Caribbean with Tupac, Hitler and Jimmy Hoffa
Death is final. Hellfire is made up
Everyone who has died is just dead. It's what the bible says.
Because He LOVES His Sheep soooooooo much He does not want them spending eternity with wicked people!!!!!
For those going to Heaven this is the closest you will get to HELL.
For those going to HELL this is the closest you will get to heaven!
John 3:16
Rev 3:16
But again the person chooses to go to hell and the person chooses to go to heaven. It’s simple God won’t force you to spend eternity with him if you want to be separated from God it’s your choice and that’s where hell is complete separation from God
@@trustme7660
Correct!!! No such thing as once saved always saved.
@@joeeliyah2090 agreed I don’t know where the once saved always saved comes from
@@trustme7660 It started out like gangreen in the Church back during the time of the Disciples and it comes from Calvanists. Luke Warm people that love their sin.
@@joeeliyah2090 I pray people wake up to the truth
29:50 Hell has Its Pleasures. HAHA I'm done.
Notice the gymnastics you gotta do to make this stuff make sense
it's not gymnastics it's the nature of choice you choose relationship or your separated away. That's true even now. If you can't get past what ever thing is separating you, then in the end that's your choice
There is no amount of jesuitical casuistry that can square a loving God with eternal damnation. None. So these cynical theologians should stop even trying, they can NEVER succeed.
Does a non Euro-Christian black person like me have to repent and be subjugated to non blacks believers and "theologians"? Or should we just agree we are enemies?
If it helps you (which if it does, should tell you that you really need Jesus Christ in your heart) Jesus is considered by many, perhaps even most, as not being white. Also, probably the first group of believers outside of Jerusalem were the Ethiopians, and they are still one of the oldest groups of Christians in the world. God is no respecter of persons, He created us all, and He is the God of everyone; black, white, brown, yellow and red -- rich, poor, and everyone in between. I pray that you can come to believe in Jesus Christ and understand His salvation by grace and faith, and realize that He died for all of us. For God so Loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. Come to Jesus Christ my brother, and you will have peace. 🙏✝️🙏
@@sammcrae8892 Thank you for the beautiful sentiment expressed in your post above. I can tell that you really wish for me to understand the value of Jesus himself.
The reason why I stated that Christianity is a pro European story, is that it was used as a tool to unify the fractured Roman empire during the reign of Constantine. My sub Saharan dark black kinki haired yòrùbá people of West Africa had no connection to any part of the Christian world, and we were certainly not a part of the Roman Empire at all. Our yòrùbá spiritual system has been in existence for over ten thousand years. In fact, my own DNA test clearly reveals that I am 99.7% from that specific area of West Africa. The DNA also reveals that my people moved to West Africa about ten thousand five hundred years ago, directly from the savanna of Africa, further corroborating the time line of my people's spiritual system and confirming my dark black people had no connection to your eurasian Roman constructed Christianity.
The question that continues to baffle me is why the continued desire for non blacks, especially European Christians to wish for black people's minds and "bodies" be submitted to white leaders (or non black) and their Jesus. That seems strange to me. And everywhere we go, there is some non black Christian believer (even now many stupid uninformed black sellout so-called Christians) are lurking around preaching their garbage at black people, knowing they are merely taking advantage of the black mind and bodies.
I don't think you realize how disturbing it is for black people dragging their people to kneel, worship and grovel at the feet of white or non black Jesus. It is so sick and demeaning. It also means we, black people, have no respect for our ancestors and our traditions, and cannot be respected in the world. Even if you do not respect our traditions, at least we should respect our own. However, we now have sellouts who are raising self hating black populations who give up their minds and bodies to be used for slavery by non blacks. These black bodies now do the corporate-contracted cheap labor in prisons. The Christian believing the labor is at least a step up from slavery.
It is one thing for stupid non black institutions to try and coerce black people into accepting the Christian black-is-the-bottom of the pecking order Christianity, but when individuals like yourself can't see the damage that your euro-cultural religion has done to others, I'm stunned.
Rather than trying to get black people to surrender to the whims of Euro-Christianity, I think you should begin coming to terms with human equality and human autonomy. Without doing that, there is no amount of Christian oppression or proselytizing that will unite our world. It won't happen.
The interpretations and doctrines formulated and used to practice the faith were very European leaning. Even today, the concentrated head of the church, the interpreters and the standard bearers and shapers are European/Westerners.
Ethiopian Christianity does not function in the same way as we have Christianity in the West. It was not a hammer used to crush non Adherents gullible nails.
Again, thank you for your reaching out. As for me, I cannot see the benefit of a black African grovelling to fit into Christianity that loathes my people. Btw, Islam has very similar degrading view of my black peoples, and they too have been as brutal if not worse. Both of these faiths are dangerous for the world. They are awful human spirit and human bodies killing machines. They are both bad.
I think “everlasting” means everlasting.
God does not put people in hell he doesn't want anybody to go there it is people who make the wrong choices they put themselves there by turning their back on him by rejecting him people put themselves into hell by making wrong decisions and choices
Rocky Barookie And people are not sent to labour camps; they put themselves there by rejecting their despicable dictator !
Why would it make sense for people to go to hell for not believing something or making a wrong choice? What does being in hell even accomplish? It doesn't make anything better or create justice or have any actual purpose.
"Thus says The Lord: Behold, the corrupt doctrines of the churches of men have crept into every corner; near and far, the doctrine of hell and eternal torment is embraced by the people.
Yet I tell you the truth, this doctrine is a loathsome spot on every garment worn in the name of truth! A detestable wrinkle within the tapestry of My glory! A horrible interwoven thread by which those who call of themselves Christian pollute My name and mar My image before the people, propagating that which came forth from the mouth of the dragon!
THIS DOCTRINE IS EVIL! And must be opposed by all who have received the love of the Truth. For I have indeed spoken to this generation, even as I have spoken in all times past. For I AM THE LORD, The Light in whom there is no darkness at all."
~
"Thus says The Lord: Little flock, how is it you say within yourselves the way of The Lord is not equal? How is it you feel as though upon this servant I have poured a bounty, yet you remain desolate?
Beloved ones, by whose power were you called forth into existence? To whose joy were you created? By whose favor were you born into this world by way of water and blood? Therefore, again I say to you, who you choose is everything. For I do not withhold My love, yet on account of your flesh you do always step backward.
Consider the woman who touched My robes and was made whole. Tell Me, how is it that she received and you do not? Was she so highly favored, that she should receive and you should not? Beloved, come close and walk beside Me, for you are indeed highly favored! And all who grab hold of Me shall surely share in all that is Mine.
Little flock, My ways are equal, yet the ways of My people remain unequal. For I have indeed poured out My life for you, yet each one must decide how deeply they drink. Do you not see? My blessings are equal for all who receive of My blessings, and My grace sufficient for all who trust in Me.
Thus among those who come to Me, one is not favored over another, nor is My love bestowed by measure. Rather it is you who receive by measure, resisting on account of all these deceitful weights, trust which remains altogether lacking.
Therefore do not confuse My love with the calling I have purposed for another, nor compare the gifts of the Spirit with The Blessing. For those I have called to serve shall indeed be given gifts, each in accordance with their faith and My will. And those who receive the greater gifts shall also bear the greater burden, even in the heat of the Day.
Therefore, again I say to you,
The Lord’s ways are indeed equal,
Yet the ways of men remain unequal...
Yet those who grab hold of their First Love
With all their heart, with all their mind,
With all their strength and with all their soul,
Shall never go hungry, nor shall they thirst anymore;
Nor shall the heat of the noonday
Sun do them any harm...
Yea, even all their tears shall be wiped away
In the house of The Lord."
trumpetcallofgod.com
For those who are living according to the flesh are intent on the things of the flesh, but those who are living according to the Spirit are intent on things of the Spirit. For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. Romans 8:5-8
Except that’s not true. It’s only seemingly true from the mindset of a religious zealot. It actually doesn’t even make logical sense if you break it down rationally. I used to be just like you and toss verses like that around. They make perfect sense when you are completely possessed by the Christian thought process. But in reality, make no sense at all.
Oh wow. This should be interesting. I’ll try to get to it tonight.
"Noter Dame" 😂
We in Hell welded the door shut. Don’t want do gooders coming in to gate crash the party. 😂
He couldn't and He won't.
He could and he does.
@@leonardu6094
Good luck with that.
@@forwardsdrawkcab ok?
The great part about your channel name is you can keep using it after you realise Christianity isn't true. You might want to change the slogan though, just a couple letters should do the trick "BTW Christianity isn't true".
I have always thought(and still do) the word/term "Hell" originated west of the Sea of Galilee, north of Tel Dor... From the ancient neolithic city Yiftahel(aka Hell), wiped out from a Tsunami or comet impact(?) thousands of years ago..
Your video with Dr. Walls from last week, "Hitler in Heaven?"(th-cam.com/video/22O-lspFoUc/w-d-xo.html) where you two seem to assert that Hitler could very well be in Heaven, along with this video's mention of Hell being created by mere mortals here on Earth as a means to control/convert the masses really leads one to the rule you have used in other past videos.. Occam's razor.
The intellectual side of Christian belief?
Isn’t that an oxymoron?
Open Minded yet Strawmanning Christianity
Isn't that an oxymoron?
I don't think it has to be interpreted as intellectual in the sense of opposed to 'dumb' or 'unintelligent', but rather it's a description of the general process of argumentation in favour of the Christian worldview through philosophy, theology, science, etc.
@@Apanblod I’ve seen Muslims do the exact same thing. If people really want to be seriously intellectual about their beliefs they should take a genuine look at what they believe from the standpoint of an outsider.
Believers are way too invested in their beliefs to honestly appraise them. Very few have the ability to step outside their beliefs and question if what they believe is actually true.
@@AD-en5dq I think it applies to “religious thought” in general, not just Christianity. I’ve seen Muslims attempt do the same thing.
If believers were capable of stepping outside their beliefs and looking at them , then they might see their own beliefs as others see them.
@@myopenmind527 I think you have a valid point with the 'outsider test' (or rather the lack thereof) when it comes to beliefs of that kind. But I think that's a separate topic.
I think muslim apologists could equally describe their efforts as presenting the intellectual side of Islam without that being an oxymoron, as I don't understand the word 'intellectual' to describe the 'quality' of the conclusion, but rather the process itself.
That was hard to listen, Purgatory? Wishing for Universalism? And Cameron doesn’t question anything ( as always)
Cam is always quick to listen and slow to speak, I think we can all learn something from him
Why are there so many adverts? Somebody is money grubbing!
How many minutes between each add break?
@@JacobDMcGrew , I didn’t count. I was too busy experiencing advertising purgatory, or maybe hell. It was over the top anyway. I’m finding that the Billionaires of the world are getting greedier by the day. If it’s Camron’s doing he’s going to lose viewership.
@@donovan7177 , that’s good it’s been corrected.
NDE do describe hell as dark and hot
God does not send them, they choose to go. You choose to accept Christ or not. Very simple. IF you never hear the Gospel God, being just, makes provision (see Romans 2).
How did you come to conclude that this mythical 'Hell' exists?
@@theoskeptomai2535 Err, how did you come to conclude hell is mythical?
Well, if I were absolutely sure that God exists, and that sin is a real thing that he hates and will punish, and that he loves me, then I would OBVIOUSLY accept Christ. The problem is Christians want people to believe that somehow a book written by men many many centuries ago is a proof of those claims I adressed before.
@@WhatsTheTakeaway Because there is no evidence of this 'hell'. Do you not know what a myth is?
Life’s a test.
I think hell is a possible outcome, though it's more probable that everyone will eventually be saved (after purgatory, the suffering will be proportionate to your sins).
@@TheWorldTeacher in a nutshell, evil actions that alienate us from God, our fellow humans, and the virtuous lives we are called to live. Murdering, stealing, cheating, deceiving, lying, abusing, being hateful, lacking compassion, avoiding to act accordingly, all that.
@@TheWorldTeacher of course I don't agree; our entire reality is evidence of God, unless you think personhood can arise out of impersonal elements, which is downright insane to me and simply contradicts the proportionality of causality that is assumed in every scientific endeavor. Just like how you can't get blood out of a turnip, as it has no blood to give, you can't get consciousness out of non-consciousness, rationality out of irrationality or thought out of non-thought. The ultimate source of all reality must contain all powers within itself, which is why any impersonal foundation is a ridiculous idea that doesn't properly explain the ultimate question of existence.
@@mickeyesoum3278 I'm not sure how to put it but if God is the ultimate source of all reality which includes consciousness and 'material objects,' does that mean God is also impersonal? Is that what the principle of proportionate causality means?
@@TheWorldTeacher I disagree with the idea that the foundational reality can even in principle be impersonal, and you haven't answered that. First of all, the first paragraph reeks of pantheism, and this is a problem since we are contingent beings, while the ultimate reality or the Absolute is necessary and unchanging. Secondly, as we all derive from the ultimate Foundation, which is the source of all reality, this Foundation must itself be personal since no effect can be greater than the total cause.
It would be ridiculous to think the Ultimate Mind doesn't know itself - is therefore ignorant - while we somehow have the power to know ourselves through the self-reflexivity of thought.
Again, unless you think personhood can come out of impersonal elements, there's no avoiding a Personal Foundation. This is *NOT* to say that God is "just" a big person, rather He is Personhood itself, unlimited. But He does have personal powers, as He does have Intellect, Will, and every power present in creation - which ultimately originates from Him, the eternal source.
So I'm not convinced. I insist on a personal God as the only appropriate source of all reality. And not only does it explain consciousness, intelligence, intentionality, personhood, etc., but it also explains the overarching order that is present in reality. This is not a realm of chaos, but of harmony and order - which, again, make sense under the idea that the ultimate reality is personal.
@@Kalypso24 no, because "impersonhood" is not a real power or attribute; it just is the absence of personhood. A rock doesn't have some positive power of "not being conscious", it just lacks consciousness.
Every power must be present in the ultimate source of things, but while thinking is a power, "not thinking" is obviously not a power, but a mere lack. The medievals called the basic, positive (in the sense of real, affirmative) attributes "perfections". From the original sense of the word, that which is complete, not incomplete.
Get an Orthodox Christian on here. Jay dyer or maybe Jonathan pageau.
Do they deny hell?
The lake of fire is the second death eternal death body and soul not eternal suffering
God sending people to hell who never heard of Jesus is morally bankrupt. Also, those who lived before Jesus, they had to believe in some God? Trust some god? Why could they not do this today? Christian universalism is the only answer to all of this, that God gives them a chance in eternity to accept Jesus, we already have Jesus showing Himself to people all around the world in dreams and visions and near death experiences, why not in total death experiences? The Bible no where ways you have to accept Jesus before you die, it says the gospel was preached to the dead, God says He wants all saved, He says all will one day eventually BE saved, nothing is impossible with God, mercy triumphs over judgement, His mercy endures forever, His wrath is but for a moment, the good shepherd seeks the one lost UNTIL He finds them, God is love...
God can not sin. so if we can sin that makes us not God. Satan is evil because he wants to be God. obedience is BS
THIS IS THE BAD PLACE!
This is literally hell.
We're being psychologically, physically, and emotionally tortured. Made all the worse because we are meant to believe that this is natural life.
There's a Loki style trickster deity that inspired all these religions and experiences that conflict with one another and lead to suffering. He gives people spiritual experiences to convince them of various religions but doesn't make any of them clearly true.
All hail Trickster Deity or suffer the next worse version of hell upon your death!
I’ve found that the people most outraged by the idea of hell are people who don’t like being held responsible for nasty behaviour and want to keep having everything their own way with zero consequences and zero consideration for anyone else.
@Jose well I guess you don’t have anything to worry about then 👍🏻 just keep doing you
@@LouisaWatt I have nothing against the idea of evil being punished. But what I hate about the biblical interpretation of hell is that it isn't about punishing sin. It is about punishing those who do not believe the bible.
@@OMGUKILLKENNY2 not exactly, but I see what you're saying. It's more to do with removing "rebellion" from heaven. Satan formed a rebellion against God because he believed himself equal rather than acknowledging that he had faults or limitations. Imagine going up to the creator of the whole universe and demanding equal status, then if it is not granted, essentially having a narcissistic meltdown and attempting to turn everyone else against the creator.
I don't know if you've ever met people like that, but they will attempt to burn your entire life to the ground if they can't have their own way, regardless of how unreasonable it might be.
That's why souls which are fundamentally opposed to God cannot be allowed in. Think of it like a form of dreadful plague and our life on earth is like a form of quarantine to see if we can overcome the illness and be allowed back into the disease-free zone. If we actually chose the sickness over the cure, then we can't be saved.
@@LouisaWatt Doesn't change the fact that not believing some book as fact is punishable with eternal sufferings. If Hell's purpose was purely about Satan and his rebellion, then why does god just allow any non-Christian soul to suffer there as well. If an 8 year old Hindu boy steals a candy bar and is hit by a bus, does he deserve to suffer for all of existence just because he thought the stories of Shiva were cooler then the stories of Jesus?
The idea of hell is actually really messed up and causes trauma, so it makes sense why people would be upset or angry about that.
U have to listen to god and obey his rules so u cant go to hell
Clumsy Strawberry And some had to listen to Stalin and obey his rules so they couldn’t go to the labour camps.
reductive, childish and oversimplified view of hell.
This guy really let's you know how much "higher" learning he has.
Is that what he was doing? I thought he was just showing how brainwashed he was.
Any thoughts on those in hell devolving and final state is worm like.
My thought is that you have a depraved and twisted mind like everyone else who believes in hell.
God doesn't send people to hell.
People chose to go there themselves
If that were true, those people would be ignorant and not able to fully understand the consequences of their actions. In which case they deserve sympathy, not damnation. We don't torture children for not understanding things they are ignorant of.
@@Jockito Have you ever pondered what is sin ? It is a deliberate choice of choosing evil over good. It is this choice that sends people to hell because of this deliberate choice. A child takes money from the parent's wallet. Its not theft because the child may think they belong to a family and a family shares things. But if I were to take money from your wallet, I have made an informed deliberate choice to steal from you. This is sin.
How did you come to conclude that this god you've mentioned exists?
@@theoskeptomai2535 My experience of Him.
For example i don't know if you are a bot or a real human being or even what you claim to be on social media. I know you when I come to know about you personally and experience the real you.
The people in gulags sent themselves there too
God is love just and .erciful but he loves you. CRAP!
The wages of sin is death not an eternal burning fire now i do believe in hell the lake if fire but the bible does not teach that those that are lost will be cast into an unending lake of fire, should not perish but have everylasting life, notice the lost perish they are tormented in hell unending, the idea that god will burn those that reject him in an unending hell is not scriptural now the bible does teach about hell but but god will burn up those that rejects his grace an they will go out of existance.
That intro music was so 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
@@creatinechris no I’m saying that intro music was fire ya know.... like it was cool
i see what you did there
I don't like being the one to say it but these ad breaks are faaaaar too many.
What’s with all the advertisements wow 😚
Who on earth has done 1small lie. That's denial.
All have sin that’s what i like about the Bible it puts everyone on equal ground
@@trustme7660 Why care about what you (or anyone else) does while on earth then? If everyone will be judged equally and are saved no matter what, I don't see a reason to care about anything. And this is an honest question, I never understood the reasoning behind it.
Everyone are sinners. Jesus died for everyone. Of course everyone will be saved, not unless Jesus death was only good for a portion of humanity
But let’s say that is the case, then everyone can agree that Jesus death and resurrection was for certain people. Which would also mean that "Jesus isn’t the savior of the world" but the savior of some people. It would also mean that Jesus isn’t "reconciling the world to himself" but only a portion of it
@@Apanblod true you do have a point
Not biblical
Is slavery biblical...? Is killing homosexuals biblical...? Then why don't you agree with it???
@@VeNeRaGe An ever-burning hell afterlife is something absorbed from Roman and Greek traditions. It is never described and is actually countered by many theologians. Those are non-sequitur questions. You are equating stuff that IS biblical that people don't practice to something that isn't biblical at all that people do believe in.
How about different levels of eternal punishment...😉
@Jose yeah agreed. What does that solve?
@@gingfreecss3808 @Jose It would just provide more information and context. For some enough to make the whole thing less absurd.
No