this is sort of the opposite of the problem we have in fine arts (with theory rather than technique), so many artists are massively overeducated while barely painting/sculpting/etc. so they can word-wrangle splashes of paint and suchlike into 'didactic explorations of post-post-modern iconography in relation to the proliferation of modernist revisionism in the new media.' or something, while they can barely draw a flower.
Torc Handsomeson Luckily for them they're rarely required to draw anything. The focus of fine art has moved on to selling ideas. Literally. The objects people create are just the pale embodiment or in some cases; a proof of concept. You sell ideas to panels to get grants. And you become a commodity in order to make money in the art market. It's a world that has little relevance outside of itself unfortunately.
Torc Handsomeson That's why you have a massive surge in fine art based in reviving that stuff. Organizations like ARC (Art Renewal Center) and schools like Watts Atelier (and many more) are returning focus on representational art.
Torc Handsomeson they have modern art. they don't need to be able to draw/paint/sculpture. just smash a toilet with a hammer and put some artificial shit on it -> call it art -> say it represents society -> get paid lots and lots of money
Ivanko is Bulgarian diminutive for the Bulgarian name Ivan. Bulgarian names like Ivan, Boris, Cyril, Tudor, etc, are also in limited use in Britain. If you want to stereotype the Moscovites, you would be better off using names like Vadim, Fyodor or Sergey.
I really enjoyed this video. I do a bit of work here and there in the independent film scene down here in Australia, and snobbery can run rampant here as well. I recall a friend asking a crewhand offhandedly to “pass the boom” in a busy scene change, referring to the pole the mic would sit on. The crewhand snickered and slowed the set to explain that the /boom pole/ and the /boom/ were seperate things, and not knowing that showed that my friend clearly hadn’t gone to a “proper film school”. Personally I’d call people like that a ‘wanker’.
When he says 'film' he means it literally. So a 'film crew' is a crew using an old fashioned film camera that exposes light to a strip of film and not a digital camera. Some people think using a film camera is takes more skill or produces better results, so that is where the snobbery comes in.
As for the ending quote, you just reminded me when I filmed, as a cameraman, a cavarly charge once (and during a thunder storm, how epic is that). The ground was literally shaking - I always thought it is just a poetic expression. And the war horses are far bigger than usual civilian horses which I havent realised up until then.
Dont know if there is a better word for this, but snobbery in general is a damn good way to not improve what you are doing. When you convince yourself that you are the best, why looking for improvement? It's so common.
there is way to much of this. In my world, of pipe organ building, it is manifested by "old guys" that instantly deam everything I say as being wrong, even if they, themselves, once said the very same thing.
Yeah but those skills are quite different. Analysis is doing data evaluation, where as engineer is keeping servers up. That's very different skill set.
My favorite are the MEDICAL doctors (or, usually, their spouses) who complain about anyone in ANY other field using the term "doctor." Of course, doctor is simply a term for someone holding a terminal degree (coming from the Latin term for "teacher," and was given to people qualified to teach at a university). Even the most esoteric humanities PhD has the same right to that title. Explaining this to these snobs makes them angry, but they normally stop correcting people.
yes to all. I was trained (albeit by ma father) as a still photographer. Lighting, setup, exposure, aperture, shutter speed, ... all king. Depth of field absolutely controlled by aperture. I was shocked to discover that many in the film industry didn't know the first thing about the physics of light, the magic ingredient of good photography. thanks for another great video. R
Seriously. Me and my circle of friends stop saying "jack of all trades" when referring to people who are jack of all trades. Instead we call them Lindys
Super late to the party on this one but as a guy who works as a tech for live entertainment in the USA, I can confirm this snobbery is alive and well. However, it exists not just in film but in every form of entertainment sadly. I concur though that camera operators for sporting events are just brilliant, the only other crew members I am more in awe of are the follow spot operators for ice skating (they do impossible things all the time). On a side note, the comments bellow who have all these theories on digital solutions for tracking focus, that might be true somewhere, but all the gigs I've worked have been just insanely skilled people whom just have exact focuses hard wired into their fingers. Or they are clueless but you can't win them all, can you?
Most I ever got into photography was a Nikon F2 with an 80-200 zoom. I was in the navy on an aircraft carrier, and could track a plane coming in to trap pretty smoothly, banging off 2-3 shots a second (manual, no motor drive) without losing focus or aim, but it took a lot of practice. The controls simply felt in exactly the right place, every time. Guy in the shop next to mine found out I had this F2 and brought his F2 rig over to show it off. Motor drive and a 500-shot magazine which replaced the regular back. Bragged how he would decide he needed a shot of an A-6 coming it with the sun in a specific spot at a specific time of day, and bang off 4 shots a second with the motor drive, develop 100 frames, look at them all, pick the one he wanted, print that, throw the rest away. I was not impressed. Then he asked how I developed my pictures, and I said I took them to a little shop off base (Yokosuka JP), and he was horrified, literally recoiled in shock, said I was just a a a snapshotter! not a photographer! I didn't say it, but almost did: You're not a photographer, you're a movie taker! But at least he never bothered me again. Had a lot of fun with that camera and lens. Found I could push Tri-X 400 ASA all the way to 19200 (max on the camera) and get it developed for just 50 yen extra. Took pictures of ships with a doubler and tripler to gve me an effective 2000 mm lens, not much contrast, but I could still read ship names from night shots a long ways away. I don't think that neighbor ever had fun with his camera, never experimented or played around with it unless it involved spending a lot of money. A shame, he obviously knew a lot of technical details. The snobbery runs deep in every endeavour.
So you worked on the 1997 production of Ivanhoe? For what it's worth it turned out amazingly IMHO, one of my favourite series ever as a lover of period pieces, particularly those set in medieval Europe.
This reminds me of a job that I had held for years and recently had to leave because of new management. The head of the department had absolutely no idea what she was doing. But she surrounded herself with people who, over the course of several years, had learned to deal with her total lack of knowledge and insane requests.
You shouldn't need to adjust focus on the fly with sports cameras. They are operating from a fixed, elevated position. By pre-sighting you can tie the focus setting in to the pitch and yaw of the camera so that any piece of ground it frames will be in focus every time you point the camera at it. I don't know if this is done, but given the way that adverts painted on the pitch are corrected to appear undistorted when viewed from the cameras' POV, they'd be mad not to be doing it that way.
lancer D A common technique is to tape matchsticks onto the fous knob, marking certain useful distances. At full zoom, though, the smallest movement of a player throws him out of focus.
Lindybeige We are talking here about highly expensive, purpose-built, digitally controlled camera rigs over a football field in which, for the purpose of providing the viewers with a mapping of ball and player positions, the players and ball are digitally tracked on computers. In this situation you have a tracking of the ball's position and can set focus control from a computer that calculates the correct focus based on camera position, camera rotation and ball or player position quickly enough that you don't notice the change in focus. I don't think attaching matchsticks to a focus knob would quite cut it here my friend!
I went to the imdb page for the 1997 mini series of ivanhoe from the bbc and went to full cast and crew, lloyd's name isn't credited :( They only gave credit to their "permanent" focus puller, some guy named Johnathan Sykes
I found this ; on the second page of names (no idea if its him or not) But as far as I know , its who you know not what you know in such a competitive industry ; London, United Kingdom - Executive Chairman at Genius Digital - Genius Digital Genius Digital's mission is to make sense of data for the TV and video industry. For operators, content providers, and brands, connected devices and Apps are . ---------------------------------- My brother called me one evening and said "Is it ok if I bring a film crew around to do a quick shoot .? I said when ? He said 20 MINS !! I said how many people ; he said ahhh , about 5 . 4 car loads and one van showed up . YOU COULD' NT EVEN WHISPER when they called "SILENCE" I had a German Shepherd that I never made compromises for . When they complained about his footsteps , I said you can have him inside with footsteps or outside barking ! . When they were just finished and most had gone (after about 5 hours) 3 were sitting in the kitchen looking at the work on their laptop . They were scrutinising a blur which supposedly was the refelection of a cameraman . I asked what they were looking for in the reflection . They director turned around REAL SNOBBISH , and said "Sorry WHO ARE YOU AGAIN ?" (and didnt want an answer) . I said ; THATS MY TABLE YOUR SITTING AT . IM THE ONE THAT GOT 20 MINUTES NOTICE TO ALLOW D-DAY to HIT MY HOUSE . My German Shepherd sensed I was a bit annoyed AND JUMPED UP and stared at her , making her a touch uncomfortable . It didnt stop them ALL showing up again the next morning . I took , my Dog for a walk , because I knew he had sensed hostility .
Should've said 'I'm the person who doesn't allow rude people in my house'. Then revoked permission for tomorrow's shoot unless the director apologised. She would've had to have done it, because it would've cost them a huge amount of money if they had to change location halfway through some already shot scenes.
Can confirm that focus pulling with those $300k sports camera lenses, trying to catch everything from coach reactions (many "who is that? where is he"s were had by me over the radio) to wide shots within a few seconds of each other is a nightmare. Whereas focus pulling on film has often seemed... stupid. One thing it allows for though is the camera operator to just focus on movement/framing when you've got a complex crane or running shot or something. It's ridiculously nifty to have some mostly useless idiot like me twiddling with a dial somewhere far away in front of a big hooded monitor. Those shots are often very expensive to get new takes on and it's difficult enough just keeping everything in frame without fiddling with focus. Of course it has its own stresses. Nobody is going to forgive the focus puller, a guy in charge of a knob, for fucking an entire action sequence. Spot on video. As always.
Dude I grew up with that Ivanhoe movie, split into two parts on Australian television, one of the few decent things they shelled out for. Now its all X Factor and Masterchef. This is why we cant have nice things.
When television was first around, the mission statement set by the BBC was, in order of importance, to "Inform, educate and entertain". Somewhere along the line "entertain" became the most profitable and therefore the most important, unfortunately.
Eric Guier Granted, what I said was naturally an exaggeration. I just think because it is cheaper, easier and still able to turn a quick profit production companies are swaying to saturating with reality and competition style programs. They also have great promotional value with their sponsoring of brands/supermarkets (Masterchef = Coles supermarkets in Australia) and free promotion with their "around the watercooler" value. If your into it, fine, just don't expect me to think it's any better for your head than Mars bars are for your waist.
tgillies101 Ah. I somehow misread your comment as claiming that all the BBC makes now (besides news) is reality shows aimed at the lowest common denominator.
Eric Guier Ahhh my apologies, early morning, no my gripe was more directed at our Australian television equivalent and how they just about wont make anything with a narrative anymore. Even though I suppose technically reality shows have a narrative and character development. Yes, "Reality".
My cousin studied to become a camerman, and worked years in the industry; now he is a DOP and a producer. He often used to say there is almost a "caste" or "cabal" of uneducated camerman that hate anyone that "did not rise from the ranks", and they would despise and look down on "school boys" that went to film school to learn their craft. Until now, I thought that was local phenomena in movie industry of my country, but it seems to be global.
That photo of the Lord Commander seems so out of place in the background lol. Also what you said about this film production greatly mirrors my experience a few of the times i was a extra.
How come we can't have people like him on the HIstory channel? I would gladly sacrifice the entire staff who thought ancient aliens was a good idea to the fire gods for this bloke.
Baseball cameramen -- and I imagine Cricket is much the same -- are even more incredible. Having to watch a 4-hour game and then keeping a sudden homerun - in the 8th-inning in the early-august heat between two bottom dwellers - completely in focus feels superhuman.
Incidentally, that Ivanhoe film is one of my favorite movies. Taped with with a vcr when I was a kid, bought the outlandishly expensive VSH 3 tape version much later, and even now have it on DVD. :P
Master of all things interesting. I imagine some day he may have family gather around a computer to hear grandpa tell another story. If nothing else, he's got all of us in our seats. It is a remarkable kindness to share so much of one's life.
As a total layman when it comes to cinematography it never ceases to amaze me that films get made at all. Every single thing has to have a team, or multiple teams, of people involved to do even the smallest and most seemingly mundane things and yet somehow the directors manage to keep all this under control and still produce something they envisioned before the filming had even started. It makes me appreciate productions all the more, even bad ones.
One might think that perhaps as an example "I Claudius" among other shows would have proven to many that TV series could be just as good as any Movie. IN FACT I will go as far to say as even better in plenty of circumstances since it gives more time to develop just about everything! Of course these days especially within the past 10 years it's obvious to anyone.
Hi Lloyd, i am relatively new to your channel and really enjoy the variety of the subject matter. I now want to know a bit more about your background experiences jobs etc in video etc. When i was doing my degree which covered filming techniques we covered a lot of the basic lighting techniques including focus pulling, shot framing etc. We also discussed film over video and pixels to full frame film and what that would equate to. This was 15 years ago now and i still remember key light, fill light back edge light to bring out textures around the edge of the thing being filmed to define it. Through using digital i know that you need a lot of light and we were using quite a nice camera back then Canon XL-1 but there were times you be boiled alive by the lights. Also the use of Red heads and Blondes, the terms always made me laugh and all sorts of acetates to help the colour balance, blues and reds etc. Thanks for the discussion you brought it all back. All the best
Take a big square of cooking foil and scrunch it up then roughly smooth it out and fashion a hat from it. Wear this hat whenever you are reading and THEY won't know.
“I’m not really a focus-puller. But while the actors are delivering their lines, I’ll be happy to wander through the front of the shot whirling a sling.”
Dear Lindybeige, As someone who is very much interested in films, and would love to get into film school, but is feeling really quite overwhelmed by the complex things going on behind the cameras, I would love to listen to more of your film-related rambles.
Everyone who has been film crew has done that....said they could just about do a job which isn't a main skill. For me it was being a Gaffer on a film when I only just about knew which light was which and how to mend a fuse. But snobbery on a film set is widespread and appalling which is what I don't miss.
I’m in the AVL industry and I have mixed feelings about focus/iris pullers. In the moment it’s so much easier to just focus on framing and let someone else handle the rest. But, like you mentioned Sports, it is possible.
I travelled once with an "international" technician responsible for installing airport radar systems around the planet. He was describing to a mutual friend how radio waves behave. I had to nearly swallow my tongue not to burst out " You haven't a clue what you're talking about.: Still...doesn't matter...no crashed planes in his wake and he is far more financially secure than me. Understanding isn't everything.
hi lindy can I please make a request for a video? (I'm going to assume you said yes) could you please do a video about one of the last successful cavalry charges at the battle of Beersheba with the australian lighthorsemen. Thanks great video btw.
You have propper training in lighting and filmmaking? Kudos. It's rather rare to see people who actually know what they are doing when working with lights. It's mostly that learn by doing snobbery you described. You'll even find that among hobby filmers and photographers.
Oh geez. I remember training with those wheeled studio video cameras. Our practice was shooting a paint can swinging from a rope and keeping it in focus. Quite difficult!
Twas ever thus -- the quill pen monks had similar attitudes towards the early printing press... BTW, LOVED your, "Could anyone really be this pretentious and stupid? Well, they can..."
And I'd love to see anyone on a film crew work out how to handle the bandwidth required to have 40 4k HDR cameras covering a live sporting event and edit it live.
these sport cameras have a tremendous focus range, thats why everything is almost always in focus, thats the main reason they are so outragously expensive
Worked on a film, providing some 17th cent firearms, one scene involved an actor being threatened by a man with a Matchlock Musket. Told the director that it needed some matchcord (which I could have provided and eventually did) the director said naively "Why" I replied because that's what fires the gun, he said we were not going to fire the gun but II said you cannot threaten some with a gun that cannot be fired. Once we had the smoking matchcord in place he cameraman was ecstatic as he had some smoke to play with.
I had an argument with a tradesman about angles once. He thought that the vertical rise of 1 degree could be simply multiplied by 30 to get the vertical rise of 30 degrees. He wouldn't have it when I explained why that would be wildly wrong. Sometimes you just have to smile and walk away...Edit. I just realised that this video is 6 years old, so nobody will read my comment...
I am utterly ignorant when it comes to the making of films, but I love knowing the technical details of such thing. Even though it is a near moral certainty that I will never, ever, make a film, knowing the real-world practice of making one allows me to appreciate the skill, knowledge and artistry brought to it. It's nice to know _why_ something about a given film "works" for me or doesn't. The fantasy of film is nice, the practical reality is often just as, if not more interesting.
@Lindybeige Lloyd, I sympathise with you, I have met many such snobs in all kinds of jobs (unintentional rhyme there !) - but what I found out most of the time is that they are in fact only attempting to disguise their incompetence. Most job snobs (I like that !) only know a tiny part of their business and haven't a clue what is going on left or right from them - hence the superficiality "I am an expert beer can opener" kind of thing, but so am I, and I can drink the beer as well, so up yours mate ! 😜😜😜
I think it's all about the controls needed for each medium. In sports they're dealing with multi-camera setups controlled by a vision mixer and with a broadcast delay, so if they do mess up they can just switch to a different shot before it goes out. Plus, sporting venues tend to be extremely well lit, allowing the cameramen create as wide a DoF as possible, though extreme close ups of a moving football are still impressive. Film sets can be much more dimly lit, depending on genre and style, and since they're intending to be viewed on cinema screens, the focus has to be extremely sharp, or the shot is ruined. Having a focus puller means the DP can pay attention to other things; the language of the lighting and shot composition, fluid camera movement, boom shadows and reflections. It all has to be perfect because there's no time to mess up! From the way you described it you didn't even have a follow focus or a second monitor, which are necessities for focus pulling.
I am a small church light and sound man. We have in our congregation a family that worked n Hollywood their whole career. Will not name drop but they know big time people. He has taught me things about stage that are awesome. I will never work in this field, I'm in my late 50's. But it is fun.
My father did sports camera for football for many years. He told me the way he stayed on the ball (literally), was because he couldn't give a toss about football, and they employed him instead of guys who liked football, because they would take their eye from the viewfinder to watch the game / ball, leaving the camera static before realising they were supposed to be providing a view for people at home/pub not just themselves!
Cameramen are the worst. They always need the On Set Dresser, me, to move the heaviest and largest set piece to get the perfect frame and then they stand in the fucking doorway with the camera blocking me when I'm trying to get the damn thing out of there.
He is a TH-camr of historical stuff, mostly war related, with a degree in archeology who makes videos on TH-cam covering a wide range of topics, and teaches swing dance for a day job. He is an eccentric gentleman, definitely British, and a jack of all trades.
I think everyone in every industry should have to watch this video. Obviously the snobbery goes both ways. I know a large number of highly educated people who were completely clueless on the actual work that needed to be done. In the Army when I was going through my advanced technical training for my first MOS, I was told that they were just teaching us how to read the manual and how to use the tools. When we got to our duty station, we would be taught how to do our jobs.
Focus pulling isn't just about keeping things in focus. There's a lot more to the job than that such as camera maintenance, and looking after the lenses. It's a pretty serious job..the equipment is expensive and if things aren't in working order or the rushes are soft it can be pretty costly to the production. This is probably the cause of the snobbery...they don't want people to think that just anyone can do it.
I agree with the snobbery part... but your argument falls apart at around 6:40 when you start talking about video being more difficult to work with right after you point out that the photon doesn't care about what it hits. Love your channel!
Wow. So much snobbery...
As a Parisian French, I feel challenged.
As a a not Parisian French don't worry, the crown still goes to Parisians. Although New Yorkers might be in the running too.
@crabe >>> Think of it as a *goal.*
But FORGET trying to MATCH NEW YORKERS. The ONLY PEOPLE who could POSSIBLY do THAT are *Bostonians.*
😁😁😁😁😁😁😁
RocKITEman _ 2001 what about Camdanites
@Frank Wharton-Hughes Pourquoi ça ?
Just imagine a fat American saying, "An Eclair is just an over-priced donut," and let the anger fuel the snobbery.
this is sort of the opposite of the problem we have in fine arts (with theory rather than technique), so many artists are massively overeducated while barely painting/sculpting/etc. so they can word-wrangle splashes of paint and suchlike into 'didactic explorations of post-post-modern iconography in relation to the proliferation of modernist revisionism in the new media.' or something, while they can barely draw a flower.
Torc Handsomeson Luckily for them they're rarely required to draw anything.
The focus of fine art has moved on to selling ideas. Literally. The objects people create are just the pale embodiment or in some cases; a proof of concept.
You sell ideas to panels to get grants. And you become a commodity in order to make money in the art market.
It's a world that has little relevance outside of itself unfortunately.
Torc Handsomeson That's why you have a massive surge in fine art based in reviving that stuff. Organizations like ARC (Art Renewal Center) and schools like Watts Atelier (and many more) are returning focus on representational art.
Torc Handsomeson you call it overeducation I call it overstupidification
Torc Handsomeson they have modern art. they don't need to be able to draw/paint/sculpture. just smash a toilet with a hammer and put some artificial shit on it -> call it art -> say it represents society -> get paid lots and lots of money
Torc Handsomeson THIS!
So true.
"Ivanhoe is the story of a Russian farmer and his tool." - _Bart Simpson_
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ivanko is Bulgarian diminutive for the Bulgarian name Ivan. Bulgarian names like Ivan, Boris, Cyril, Tudor, etc, are also in limited use in Britain. If you want to stereotype the Moscovites, you would be better off using names like Vadim, Fyodor or Sergey.
@@julianpetkov8320 Alright, don't cry
@@alfred9895
He wasn't.
I really enjoyed this video. I do a bit of work here and there in the independent film scene down here in Australia, and snobbery can run rampant here as well.
I recall a friend asking a crewhand offhandedly to “pass the boom” in a busy scene change, referring to the pole the mic would sit on. The crewhand snickered and slowed the set to explain that the /boom pole/ and the /boom/ were seperate things, and not knowing that showed that my friend clearly hadn’t gone to a “proper film school”.
Personally I’d call people like that a ‘wanker’.
honestly this is the first video i dont understand what the hell your talking about but im okay with that here is a like :3
When he says 'film' he means it literally. So a 'film crew' is a crew using an old fashioned film camera that exposes light to a strip of film and not a digital camera. Some people think using a film camera is takes more skill or produces better results, so that is where the snobbery comes in.
As for the ending quote, you just reminded me when I filmed, as a cameraman, a cavarly charge once (and during a thunder storm, how epic is that). The ground was literally shaking - I always thought it is just a poetic expression. And the war horses are far bigger than usual civilian horses which I havent realised up until then.
I went to film school for a while... the snobbery was strong.
When the horses rode past, narrowly missing the camera.... what were they riding? Bicycles? :D
Maybe the horses were riding other horses.
I feel like your use of the word _naive_ came after realizing that saying the word you originally thought to use would be _a bit harsh_.
*naïve
Adolf Eichmann Both work.
GloomyEyes Look his name/avatar. It's a grammar nazi don't answer to him XD.
MANDRAC Don't be ridiculous. Clearly he's an accent mark nazi.
Adolf Eichmann thought they hanged you for this sort of thing Eichmann
Dont know if there is a better word for this, but snobbery in general is a damn good way to not improve what you are doing.
When you convince yourself that you are the best, why looking for improvement?
It's so common.
Complacency is the word for so
there is way to much of this. In my world, of pipe organ building, it is manifested by "old guys" that instantly deam everything I say as being wrong, even if they, themselves, once said the very same thing.
Arrogance?
Arrogance
6:32 "That would be LIT"
-Lindy boyo
It's like this in every job. I work in IT and there's always people saying "No, no, I'm an ARCHITECT" or "I'm actually an ENGINEER, not an analyst."
My favorite year, Peter saying, I can't go out there. This is live TV, and I'm a movie star.
Yeah but those skills are quite different. Analysis is doing data evaluation, where as engineer is keeping servers up. That's very different skill set.
My favorite are the MEDICAL doctors (or, usually, their spouses) who complain about anyone in ANY other field using the term "doctor." Of course, doctor is simply a term for someone holding a terminal degree (coming from the Latin term for "teacher," and was given to people qualified to teach at a university). Even the most esoteric humanities PhD has the same right to that title. Explaining this to these snobs makes them angry, but they normally stop correcting people.
Why don't you just do a series on video production?
That would be a very interesting series, and probably would be one of my favorite.
SamiiYou Yeah, I would LOVE that
yes to all.
I was trained (albeit by ma father) as a still photographer. Lighting, setup, exposure, aperture, shutter speed, ... all king. Depth of field absolutely controlled by aperture. I was shocked to discover that many in the film industry didn't know the first thing about the physics of light, the magic ingredient of good photography.
thanks for another great video.
R
Seriously. Me and my circle of friends stop saying "jack of all trades" when referring to people who are jack of all trades. Instead we call them Lindys
This is so true. Video guy here. When i would encounter this I would just say to myself, "Keep calm, everything has a Fresnel."
I learned a lot watching this, and it saddens me that this happened to you while working on such a wonderful story. Hello from Virginia.
Super late to the party on this one but as a guy who works as a tech for live entertainment in the USA, I can confirm this snobbery is alive and well. However, it exists not just in film but in every form of entertainment sadly.
I concur though that camera operators for sporting events are just brilliant, the only other crew members I am more in awe of are the follow spot operators for ice skating (they do impossible things all the time).
On a side note, the comments bellow who have all these theories on digital solutions for tracking focus, that might be true somewhere, but all the gigs I've worked have been just insanely skilled people whom just have exact focuses hard wired into their fingers. Or they are clueless but you can't win them all, can you?
Most I ever got into photography was a Nikon F2 with an 80-200 zoom. I was in the navy on an aircraft carrier, and could track a plane coming in to trap pretty smoothly, banging off 2-3 shots a second (manual, no motor drive) without losing focus or aim, but it took a lot of practice. The controls simply felt in exactly the right place, every time.
Guy in the shop next to mine found out I had this F2 and brought his F2 rig over to show it off. Motor drive and a 500-shot magazine which replaced the regular back. Bragged how he would decide he needed a shot of an A-6 coming it with the sun in a specific spot at a specific time of day, and bang off 4 shots a second with the motor drive, develop 100 frames, look at them all, pick the one he wanted, print that, throw the rest away. I was not impressed. Then he asked how I developed my pictures, and I said I took them to a little shop off base (Yokosuka JP), and he was horrified, literally recoiled in shock, said I was just a a a snapshotter! not a photographer! I didn't say it, but almost did: You're not a photographer, you're a movie taker! But at least he never bothered me again.
Had a lot of fun with that camera and lens. Found I could push Tri-X 400 ASA all the way to 19200 (max on the camera) and get it developed for just 50 yen extra. Took pictures of ships with a doubler and tripler to gve me an effective 2000 mm lens, not much contrast, but I could still read ship names from night shots a long ways away. I don't think that neighbor ever had fun with his camera, never experimented or played around with it unless it involved spending a lot of money. A shame, he obviously knew a lot of technical details.
The snobbery runs deep in every endeavour.
Lloyd, your hair is looking particularly disheveled today, Thumb up!
Snobbery is usually a sign of ignorance and insecurity.
that doesn't apply to Thunderf00t
yes it does...
Well... Ignorance too?
Sometimes.
So like twitter?
So you worked on the 1997 production of Ivanhoe? For what it's worth it turned out amazingly IMHO, one of my favourite series ever as a lover of period pieces, particularly those set in medieval Europe.
This reminds me of a job that I had held for years and recently had to leave because of new management. The head of the department had absolutely no idea what she was doing. But she surrounded herself with people who, over the course of several years, had learned to deal with her total lack of knowledge and insane requests.
You shouldn't need to adjust focus on the fly with sports cameras. They are operating from a fixed, elevated position. By pre-sighting you can tie the focus setting in to the pitch and yaw of the camera so that any piece of ground it frames will be in focus every time you point the camera at it. I don't know if this is done, but given the way that adverts painted on the pitch are corrected to appear undistorted when viewed from the cameras' POV, they'd be mad not to be doing it that way.
lancer D A common technique is to tape matchsticks onto the fous knob, marking certain useful distances. At full zoom, though, the smallest movement of a player throws him out of focus.
Lindybeige We are talking here about highly expensive, purpose-built, digitally controlled camera rigs over a football field in which, for the purpose of providing the viewers with a mapping of ball and player positions, the players and ball are digitally tracked on computers.
In this situation you have a tracking of the ball's position and can set focus control from a computer that calculates the correct focus based on camera position, camera rotation and ball or player position quickly enough that you don't notice the change in focus.
I don't think attaching matchsticks to a focus knob would quite cut it here my friend!
threemoo I don't think lindybeige was talking about cameras of today
tiamat2009yt
This comment chain is about Sports cameras...
Also Lindybeige is pretty strict on his grammar; he used the present tense in his reply.
threemoo
yes, but not todays
I've worked at many places doing a variety of things. There is usually at least one jackass in every crowd.
Never know what I''m going to learn about when I watch Lindy. This week, movie filming. Next week: llama grooming.
I went to the imdb page for the 1997 mini series of ivanhoe from the bbc and went to full cast and crew, lloyd's name isn't credited :( They only gave credit to their "permanent" focus puller, some guy named Johnathan Sykes
I found this ; on the second page of names (no idea if its him or not)
But as far as I know , its who you know not what you know in such a competitive industry ;
London, United Kingdom - Executive Chairman at Genius Digital - Genius Digital
Genius Digital's mission is to make sense of data for the TV and video industry. For operators, content providers, and brands, connected devices and Apps are .
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My brother called me one evening and said "Is it ok if I bring a film crew around to do a quick shoot .? I said when ? He said 20 MINS !!
I said how many people ; he said ahhh , about 5 .
4 car loads and one van showed up .
YOU COULD' NT EVEN WHISPER when they called "SILENCE"
I had a German Shepherd that I never made compromises for . When they complained about his footsteps , I said you can have him inside with footsteps or outside barking ! .
When they were just finished and most had gone (after about 5 hours) 3 were sitting in the kitchen looking at the work on their laptop .
They were scrutinising a blur which supposedly was the refelection of a cameraman .
I asked what they were looking for in the reflection .
They director turned around REAL SNOBBISH , and said "Sorry WHO ARE YOU AGAIN ?" (and didnt want an answer) .
I said ; THATS MY TABLE YOUR SITTING AT . IM THE ONE THAT GOT 20 MINUTES NOTICE TO ALLOW D-DAY to HIT MY HOUSE .
My German Shepherd sensed I was a bit annoyed AND JUMPED UP and stared at her , making her a touch uncomfortable .
It didnt stop them ALL showing up again the next morning .
I took , my Dog for a walk , because I knew he had sensed hostility .
Oli Faelaen you are more patient than me, I'd have thrown them out if they were that arrogant towards me in my own house!
.
Classic art industry snobs, I would not have let them into my house
Should've said 'I'm the person who doesn't allow rude people in my house'. Then revoked permission for tomorrow's shoot unless the director apologised. She would've had to have done it, because it would've cost them a huge amount of money if they had to change location halfway through some already shot scenes.
the day I learned what a focus puller is
I remember watching this series as a kid, damn what an unknown series I felt like, with a HUGE star studded cast
Can confirm that focus pulling with those $300k sports camera lenses, trying to catch everything from coach reactions (many "who is that? where is he"s were had by me over the radio) to wide shots within a few seconds of each other is a nightmare. Whereas focus pulling on film has often seemed... stupid.
One thing it allows for though is the camera operator to just focus on movement/framing when you've got a complex crane or running shot or something. It's ridiculously nifty to have some mostly useless idiot like me twiddling with a dial somewhere far away in front of a big hooded monitor. Those shots are often very expensive to get new takes on and it's difficult enough just keeping everything in frame without fiddling with focus.
Of course it has its own stresses. Nobody is going to forgive the focus puller, a guy in charge of a knob, for fucking an entire action sequence.
Spot on video. As always.
Dude I grew up with that Ivanhoe movie, split into two parts on Australian television, one of the few decent things they shelled out for. Now its all X Factor and Masterchef. This is why we cant have nice things.
When television was first around, the mission statement set by the BBC was, in order of importance, to "Inform, educate and entertain". Somewhere along the line "entertain" became the most profitable and therefore the most important, unfortunately.
Tristan Gillies Is Doctor Who not BBC, or did it sink to the level of the X factor while I wasn't looking?
Eric Guier Granted, what I said was naturally an exaggeration. I just think because it is cheaper, easier and still able to turn a quick profit production companies are swaying to saturating with reality and competition style programs. They also have great promotional value with their sponsoring of brands/supermarkets (Masterchef = Coles supermarkets in Australia) and free promotion with their "around the watercooler" value. If your into it, fine, just don't expect me to think it's any better for your head than Mars bars are for your waist.
tgillies101 Ah. I somehow misread your comment as claiming that all the BBC makes now (besides news) is reality shows aimed at the lowest common denominator.
Eric Guier Ahhh my apologies, early morning, no my gripe was more directed at our Australian television equivalent and how they just about wont make anything with a narrative anymore. Even though I suppose technically reality shows have a narrative and character development. Yes, "Reality".
Why is there a picture of Lord-Commander Mormont on your wall? LOL
+FCMarcus Aye, winter is coming
Well the wall is in Northumberland
My cousin studied to become a camerman, and worked years in the industry; now he is a DOP and a producer. He often used to say there is almost a "caste" or "cabal" of uneducated camerman that hate anyone that "did not rise from the ranks", and they would despise and look down on "school boys" that went to film school to learn their craft. Until now, I thought that was local phenomena in movie industry of my country, but it seems to be global.
That photo of the Lord Commander seems so out of place in the background lol. Also what you said about this film production greatly mirrors my experience a few of the times i was a extra.
How come we can't have people like him on the HIstory channel? I would gladly sacrifice the entire staff who thought ancient aliens was a good idea to the fire gods for this bloke.
Dear Lloyd,
Would you be so kind as to make us a video covering the Thracian Falx?
SobekhotepThutmose Dacian? Romphia? Some confusion here. But yes.
Indeed. A lot of legends surrounding these weapons! Hope to see another of your great videos mate
Lindybeige How about the whole family of weapons?
The Bastarnae, falx, Rhomphia etc.
My vote to the Dacian falx.
Did he ever make the video?
Baseball cameramen -- and I imagine Cricket is much the same -- are even more incredible. Having to watch a 4-hour game and then keeping a sudden homerun - in the 8th-inning in the early-august heat between two bottom dwellers - completely in focus feels superhuman.
Incidentally, that Ivanhoe film is one of my favorite movies. Taped with with a vcr when I was a kid, bought the outlandishly expensive VSH 3 tape version much later, and even now have it on DVD. :P
Master of all things interesting. I imagine some day he may have family gather around a computer to hear grandpa tell another story. If nothing else, he's got all of us in our seats. It is a remarkable kindness to share so much of one's life.
A peek into a world I know nothing about, (had to search "focus puller") thank you for drilling a hole in the fence.
Very interesting video! I had no clue you had any background in film/video outside of youtube and I'm very impressed.
As a total layman when it comes to cinematography it never ceases to amaze me that films get made at all. Every single thing has to have a team, or multiple teams, of people involved to do even the smallest and most seemingly mundane things and yet somehow the directors manage to keep all this under control and still produce something they envisioned before the filming had even started. It makes me appreciate productions all the more, even bad ones.
Yes Lloyd I’ve done that job here in Texas for more than 30 years and I know exactly what you mean.
One might think that perhaps as an example "I Claudius" among other shows would have proven to many that TV series could be just as good as any Movie. IN FACT I will go as far to say as even better in plenty of circumstances since it gives more time to develop just about everything! Of course these days especially within the past 10 years it's obvious to anyone.
Hi Lloyd, i am relatively new to your channel and really enjoy the variety of the subject matter. I now want to know a bit more about your background experiences jobs etc in video etc. When i was doing my degree which covered filming techniques we covered a lot of the basic lighting techniques including focus pulling, shot framing etc. We also discussed film over video and pixels to full frame film and what that would equate to. This was 15 years ago now and i still remember key light, fill light back edge light to bring out textures around the edge of the thing being filmed to define it. Through using digital i know that you need a lot of light and we were using quite a nice camera back then Canon XL-1 but there were times you be boiled alive by the lights. Also the use of Red heads and Blondes, the terms always made me laugh and all sorts of acetates to help the colour balance, blues and reds etc. Thanks for the discussion you brought it all back. All the best
Can you create a separate playlist entitled ‘my rants’. I’d enjoy that playlist.
This popped up in my "suggested" list, and I'm right in the middle of re-reading Ivanhoe.
I'm a bit worried about that.
Take a big square of cooking foil and scrunch it up then roughly smooth it out and fashion a hat from it. Wear this hat whenever you are reading and THEY won't know.
“I’m not really a focus-puller. But while the actors are delivering their lines, I’ll be happy to wander through the front of the shot whirling a sling.”
Dear Lindybeige,
As someone who is very much interested in films, and would love to get into film school, but is feeling really quite overwhelmed by the complex things going on behind the cameras, I would love to listen to more of your film-related rambles.
Why is there a random picture of Jeor Mormont on the wall? Has that been there in earlier videos?
silvercomic A bear seems fitting in the company of flowers, parrots and assorted animals.
He had it signed I believe. (Saw the signature on another video)
It's quite a new addition. It's been there peeking over Lloyd's shoulder in a couple of his most recent videos.
silvercomic There he stands.
Or... Hangs, anyway...
He's a watcher on the "wall"....
"I'm not the focus puller, I'm the focus puller's son ..."
wait - isn't england the home of snobbery? first class, second class, no class?
i went to school with matt painting.
I think that you are confusing the British class system with types of railway carriage.
Do you still see Matt?
@@willzibubperhaps conflating rather than confusing.
Love these stories, so interesting.
Everyone who has been film crew has done that....said they could just about do a job which isn't a main skill. For me it was being a Gaffer on a film when I only just about knew which light was which and how to mend a fuse. But snobbery on a film set is widespread and appalling which is what I don't miss.
I’m in the AVL industry and I have mixed feelings about focus/iris pullers.
In the moment it’s so much easier to just focus on framing and let someone else handle the rest.
But, like you mentioned Sports, it is possible.
Very interesting. I'm not a huge fan of weaponry, and all that stuff, but I find your videos to be actually quite interesting.
I remember really enjoying that version of Ivanhoe when I was a teenager. I'd love to see Lloyd talk about the historical (in)accuracies in the movie.
Sound engineer here with 5 years higher education and yeah. The snobbery from people with no education is overwelming...
Cameras like the RED can be preset to pull focus at a specific time during a take
Oh, how the turn tables on these snobs. Lol Television is widely known as the better storytelling experience now! 🤣
I travelled once with an "international" technician responsible for installing airport radar systems around the planet. He was describing to a mutual friend how radio waves behave. I had to nearly swallow my tongue not to burst out " You haven't a clue what you're talking about.: Still...doesn't matter...no crashed planes in his wake and he is far more financially secure than me. Understanding isn't everything.
As being a member of the wonderful field of video, I share your pain...
hi lindy can I please make a request for a video? (I'm going to assume you said yes)
could you please do a video about one of the last successful cavalry charges at the battle of Beersheba with the australian lighthorsemen. Thanks great video btw.
Heh heh. This made me chuckle. Greets from a TV cameraman :)
I was worried I wouldn't get a video from you, Lindybeige haha
You have propper training in lighting and filmmaking? Kudos. It's rather rare to see people who actually know what they are doing when working with lights. It's mostly that learn by doing snobbery you described. You'll even find that among hobby filmers and photographers.
Ah! The classic: "I don't know how how it works. I just how to make it work."
Oh geez. I remember training with those wheeled studio video cameras. Our practice was shooting a paint can swinging from a rope and keeping it in focus. Quite difficult!
I never thought i'd ever hear lloyd say the words "That would be lit"
You are absolutely astounding
Twas ever thus -- the quill pen monks had similar attitudes towards the early printing press...
BTW, LOVED your, "Could anyone really be this pretentious and stupid? Well, they can..."
next time just say to them, "film? whats that? do you mean video films?"
And I'd love to see anyone on a film crew work out how to handle the bandwidth required to have 40 4k HDR cameras covering a live sporting event and edit it live.
these sport cameras have a tremendous focus range, thats why everything is almost always in focus, thats the main reason they are so outragously expensive
Worked on a film, providing some 17th cent firearms, one scene involved an actor being threatened by a man with a Matchlock Musket. Told the director that it needed some matchcord (which I could have provided and eventually did) the director said naively "Why" I replied because that's what fires the gun, he said we were not going to fire the gun but II said you cannot threaten some with a gun that cannot be fired. Once we had the smoking matchcord in place he cameraman was ecstatic as he had some smoke to play with.
Lloyd, why do you not consult for the art dept in films? Youve even got experience!
No wonder you’re not on TV !
You’re better than most of the D Hs on TV.
You don’t pull your punches though!!!
Speak the truth my friend 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
He sounds very snobby in this video.
I had an argument with a tradesman about angles once. He thought that the vertical rise of 1 degree could be simply multiplied by 30 to get the vertical rise of 30 degrees. He wouldn't have it when I explained why that would be wildly wrong.
Sometimes you just have to smile and walk away...Edit. I just realised that this video is 6 years old, so nobody will read my comment...
I read it, thanks for the story
I also read it. 😊
The hilarity is them having such snobbery... On a movie I've never heard of in my life.
Much warranted arrogance.
You truly are a superb story teller.
I am utterly ignorant when it comes to the making of films, but I love knowing the technical details of such thing. Even though it is a near moral certainty that I will never, ever, make a film, knowing the real-world practice of making one allows me to appreciate the skill, knowledge and artistry brought to it. It's nice to know _why_ something about a given film "works" for me or doesn't. The fantasy of film is nice, the practical reality is often just as, if not more interesting.
Lindy I see this kind of thing in audio all the time :D
@Lindybeige
Lloyd, I sympathise with you, I have met many such snobs in all kinds of jobs (unintentional rhyme there !) - but what I found out most of the time is that they are in fact only attempting to disguise their incompetence. Most job snobs (I like that !) only know a tiny part of their business and haven't a clue what is going on left or right from them - hence the superficiality "I am an expert beer can opener" kind of thing, but so am I, and I can drink the beer as well, so up yours mate ! 😜😜😜
They put more effort on pretentiousness about the cinematography than they did on making it a believable medieval setting
Oh my!.... And I suggested the other day that he might have tried a polarizing filter in Stockholm...
How embarrassing.
I think it's all about the controls needed for each medium. In sports they're dealing with multi-camera setups controlled by a vision mixer and with a broadcast delay, so if they do mess up they can just switch to a different shot before it goes out. Plus, sporting venues tend to be extremely well lit, allowing the cameramen create as wide a DoF as possible, though extreme close ups of a moving football are still impressive.
Film sets can be much more dimly lit, depending on genre and style, and since they're intending to be viewed on cinema screens, the focus has to be extremely sharp, or the shot is ruined. Having a focus puller means the DP can pay attention to other things; the language of the lighting and shot composition, fluid camera movement, boom shadows and reflections. It all has to be perfect because there's no time to mess up!
From the way you described it you didn't even have a follow focus or a second monitor, which are necessities for focus pulling.
I am a small church light and sound man. We have in our congregation a family that worked n Hollywood their whole career. Will not name drop but they know big time people. He has taught me things about stage that are awesome. I will never work in this field, I'm in my late 50's. But it is fun.
My father did sports camera for football for many years. He told me the way he stayed on the ball (literally), was because he couldn't give a toss about football, and they employed him instead of guys who liked football, because they would take their eye from the viewfinder to watch the game / ball, leaving the camera static before realising they were supposed to be providing a view for people at home/pub not just themselves!
You really put in the boot. It was very enjoyable.
Considering how much lloyd seems to know about filming, it makes it even more hilariously ironic that he spent so long filming on a potato XD
Cameramen are the worst. They always need the On Set Dresser, me, to move the heaviest and largest set piece to get the perfect frame and then they stand in the fucking doorway with the camera blocking me when I'm trying to get the damn thing out of there.
2:50 That drummer made the video much more dramatic ;-P
Aww, the dislike count almost exactly matches the number of naive snobs he describes! I'm glad they managed to find his channel.
8:11 OH YEAH! That's the *"I've been doing this 30 years"* guy!
Everybody knows him!
Just what IS your profession Lindy?
TheMiniasis I think he is a dance instructor/youtuber that also does various lindybeige things on the side for extra cash
TheMiniasis ALL the professions!
All the beige ones anyway.
Beige-ery
ahoo?
He is a TH-camr of historical stuff, mostly war related, with a degree in archeology who makes videos on TH-cam covering a wide range of topics, and teaches swing dance for a day job. He is an eccentric gentleman, definitely British, and a jack of all trades.
"I'm not a snob, ask anyone...
...anyone that matters"
I think everyone in every industry should have to watch this video. Obviously the snobbery goes both ways. I know a large number of highly educated people who were completely clueless on the actual work that needed to be done. In the Army when I was going through my advanced technical training for my first MOS, I was told that they were just teaching us how to read the manual and how to use the tools. When we got to our duty station, we would be taught how to do our jobs.
Focus pulling isn't just about keeping things in focus. There's a lot more to the job than that such as camera maintenance, and looking after the lenses. It's a pretty serious job..the equipment is expensive and if things aren't in working order or the rushes are soft it can be pretty costly to the production. This is probably the cause of the snobbery...they don't want people to think that just anyone can do it.
I agree with the snobbery part... but your argument falls apart at around 6:40 when you start talking about video being more difficult to work with right after you point out that the photon doesn't care about what it hits. Love your channel!
"in video you have to raise the shadows a bit or else everything looks bad" *wears what looks like a knitted black hole for a shirt* Q.E.D. ;)
I thought it was a travelling matt