Word of Faith Vs Men of Faith: Alternatives to WOF Doctrine From Christian History With Paul King
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.พ. 2022
- Word of Faith Vs Men of Faith: Alternatives to WOF Doctrine From Christian History With Paul King
As Charismatics ourselves we are often labeled Word of Faith because we believe in the gifts. As Christians who call out some of the errors in the Word of Faith movement, there is a common assumption among those in the WOF that we are cessationists. However, we want to be men FULL OF FAITH! I want God to be Glorified in my life through healing, if God would have it I would love to see more healings than Amy Simple McPherson and John G Lake. If it would grow me in my faith toward God, and fruitfulness in ministry, I want to have crazier stories of provision than Kenneth Copeland and Jessie Duplantis. That being said, the testimonies do not justify the doctrines. Are there alternatives to WOF Doctrines from Christian History? Are there Men and Women who were marked by provision and miraculous power who were faithful in proclaiming orthodox doctrine? Well, In this video Paul King is with us to discuss the Word of Faith VS Men of Faith. We will be looking at three extremely Influential men George Muller, Hudson Taylor, and Charles Spurgeon. These men were marked by supernatural provision and the miraculous working of God's power while never compromising the orthodox Christian doctrine. Our goal is to compare and contrast the WOF with these historic Men of Faith so that we can point our WOF brothers to alternative examples in Christian history. Paul King has some great insights, can't wait for our talk.
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You guys always find the sweetest humblest brilliant servants of the LORD to visit the show. My wife and I found a healthy Charismatic church thanks to y’all 😃
Praise the Lord! We are still looking!
@@haileylindberg4365did you find one?
Oh how I appreciate Remnant Radio and the guests and subject matters they cover! When I get bogged down with trying to figure out who and what is accurate (especially in the area of Holy Spirit sign gifts/charismatic), I tune into this show and Holy Spirit opens up my understanding and peace settles over my mind. Thank you for all you do!
I really loved the episode and appreciated Dr. King’s knowledge of history on WOF roots. I don’t consider myself Word of Faith camp, however, spiritually I grew up in a church overseas that was established by WOF missionaries. Having said that, they were not your “typical” (whatever typical would be) WOF ministers. I went to our Bible School, which was based on RHEMA Bible Training Center curriculum and taught by RHEMA alumni. Another disclaimer I will add is that when “prosperity” gospel was exported to our country, as a young believer, I knew immediately inside of me that was not go along with it and that it was dangerous - it was, it distracted many new believers and caused many to stray from the Lord.
I would like to, humbly, say that I think Brother Hagin would disagree with Dr. King that he had “special” or the GIFT of faith. Brother Hagin taught primarily and mostly that ANY believer who takes the time to meditate on the Holy Word of God, their faith will be strengthened. The GIFT of faith is AS the Holy Spirit wills - it is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
Just like Bro. Hagin would say that although he was a prophet, he had to hear God the same way as any other believer - he would operate as a prophet to the Body of Christ, not to get a leading in his own personal life.
Also, VERY important to mention that before Bro. Hagin went on to be with the Lord, he wrote a book “the Midas Touch” in attempt to correct the extremes of the prosperity message. In addition, he personally gathered the leading WOF ministers of the 90ies and early 2000’s to correct and WARN them of the error of prosperity message…
There’s much to be said about the awesome impact of Bro. Hagin’s love of the Word of God and the simple way he taught the treasures of the Word. I am forever thankful and STILL listen to his messages from like the 1970-ies and every time I do - it just strengthens my faith, my love for the Truth and how God leads His children.
Sure, there were mistakes. Sure there were second, third and fourth generation ministers that ran with the message similar to the “telephone game”, and different motives compared to the ones Bro. Hagin fostered and promoted.
Just my ten cents…
Wow, do you know how I get the 90s RMAI conference messages
This is one of my all-time favorite episodes. I am a faith guy, but I definitely try to avoid prosperity extremes, claiming things that are outside the word, etc. I have been tremendously blessed over the years by it, but I also know that woundedness can come from it as well, especially if one only hears one or two teachings on a particular subject like healing and throws their medicine away to try to demonstrate their faith, which has been a fringe practice by the way. The same can be true of any other movement. Take Calvinism for example. There are those who are Calvinistic that may rejoice in what they believe are the doctrines of grace. there also are those that have a constant fear of being non-elect. They may come to the conclusion since they don’t know that they are of the elect, and they cannot do anything about it one way or the other, either you live a miserable Christian life, or deny the faith. So some of this stuff really cuts both ways Great episode though. Really enjoy Paul king that he did not totally throw the baby out with the bathwater. you should interview Jew and Greek.
Very interesting episode. Would love to see another episode with Paul King. I used to go to a Word of Faith church. I felt it's teachings on suffering were not balanced, but overall it was a good church full of devoted Christians. It wasn't at all out of control like the NAR church I went to.
I think Kenneth Hagin wrote a book entitled suffering and to perfection. People seem to be surprised by that but he did teach on it. To be sure, he did not believe it included sickness and disease, but he did have an understanding of suffering. He also wrote a book called the Midas touch, where he rebuked a lot of the hyper prosperity teachers and their financial excess is in life and ministry. Thought you might be interested to know that. Of course the heresy hunters never talk about that. Lol❤
Josh and Michael, thanks for your final thoughts. I can't get on board with this man's theology but he was very delightful!
Nor can I. My spidey senses are going off on this one.
Great show. Downloaded the ebook. Excited to get started!
I finished it and will save it to read it again. Minus some grammatical errors, it's very informative and a great place to start. A really good read. Short and sweet and gets to the point.
This is an awesome episode! I am learning and getting clarity on SOOO much!! I so appreciate you all and Paul King! Glory to God and thank you!! 🙏🏼❤️
Thank for a balanced episode on WOF, I say again as someone who spent many years in the WOF movement and has moved away from it due to the extremes that arose. There is still a lot of solid teaching there that should be recognized in spite of the bad
17:43 I think u need to just do the hair growth throng Kenneth Copland does 😂😂😂 HAIR! GROWWWWWWW!
This was so good! Never heard of Paul King before, can't wait to read his books! Discernment is so important and not really encouraged, discussed or taught much. I'm always praying for discernment for my husband, my kids and myself. Love you guys! Praying for your ministry!🙏
Great episode! I hope you will invite Dr King back on the show again.
You guys should for sure do a video about discernment verse judgement. Rebuking etc
I checked out when your guest compared Charles Spurgeon to Oral Roberts.
Thanks for the heads up! I won't waste my time!
Respectfully, may I suggest you not let someone else determine what you will listen to. :)
You may hear something worth noting that they missed in the context. Plus, there are other good points worth listening to.
A lot of mean heresy-hunters hear one negative comment and totally dis a person or belief without thinking for themselves.
Well, you missed some great content. It's good to listen and then consider what was said.
I think the right question to ask on healing with respect to Spurgeon isn’t if he had a healing ministry, but what he understood about healing. Every cessationist I know believes God still heals, but it is not guaranteed in the atonement.
yes I agree with this
Plenty of contunuists believe healing is not guaranteed in the atonement either, or at least it is not guaranteed in this life, there isn't necessary a direct link between the atonement and gifts of the spirit other than the atonement made the pouring out of the spirit on all flesh possible, so it's perfectly possible to believe gifts of healings continue without believing this is guaranteed by Jesus's death on the cross.
We have all been given the measure of faith. That's bible. It's unbelief that is the problem at times.
Folks, we need to fast and ask God for his Armor and also for THE GIFTS OF HEALINGS🙏
Loved this convo!! Thank you!
I have and recommend Dr King's books and appreciate his point of view. He's much more biblical than either the WoF televangelists or the Calvinist/Cessationist Cabal.
As a Classical Pentecostal/Classic Prayer & Faith guy myself I don't completely agree with King, but I mostly do.
I also recommend books by E.M Bounds and Andrew Murray.
You have preachers that are word of faith flavor that don’t fit the description of “money come to me, and a life without adversity”. Then you have those that seem to only want an increase in the dollar, a new jet, and a life without any problems. That’s not a word of faith problem, that’s a heart problem.
The term WOF is a box we try to fit people into.
Like Jesus.
He will not fit into our box.
He is a living God.
We are one with Him.
We have fellowship with Him.
The word also says we should jidge righteously. Those who deny us by saying judge not that you not be judged are taking away our right to exercise discernment and to come to a scriptural decision
I love your beard
I believe the gifts of the Spirit are very real and some people's abusive interpretations do not negate that. So while I totally agree with Dr. King's conclusions, for me personally a few red flags sprung up during the talk:
- Starting a discussion about historical examples and then talking almost exclusively about people who lived in the past 200 years. Christianity is much older than that and if you need to build a convincing argument there are plenty of good examples to be found from apostolic times through the middle ages, reformation, etc.
- Accusing Hank Hanegraaf of not understanding theology
- Pulling the "don't judge" card on Ken Copeland's private jet
- Heavily implying that binding and loosing in Matthew 16:19 refers to demons...
I wonder if the campground was Beulah Beach near Vermillion OH, I spent some summers there as my grandparents were missionaries with Christian Missionary Alliance.
Has remnant radio done a episode on “proclaiming”?
Didn't Kenneth Hagin get a lot of his doctrine & beliefs from Essek W. Kenyon also?
Yep, not sold on this guy’s perspective of the topic, the minute he almost defended Kenneth Copeland I questioned his “ discernment “
Key Word Is 'Almost' defended.
So stop right there: the leader of this podcast said the Legitimate gift of discernment is knowing the difference between the true and the "Almost" true. So this is About 'discernment'. So you're judging but not discerning. They are not even "Almost" close, judging and discerning are OPPOSITES.
He did Not defend Copeland. Take another listen.
It occurs to me to mention that were the hosts to be found in the cessationist camp, it would be extremely unlikely that the breadth and depth of discussion and topics covered would be found here? All this aided by a relatively ( I am not American) low key and unassuming approach?
TAKEAWAYS:In Dealing with the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel Dangerous Theological Error, it is best to study the Faith of the great Men of God not just in Scripture but the faith of the early Evangelical Preachers like George Mueller, Charles Spurgeon, AB Simpson and other Faithful Biblical Preachers.
Remember there is a Healthy Biblical Faith and there is Unhealthy Extreme Biblical Faith that the WOF/Prosperity Gospel expounds.
Nailed it.
I did not hear or missed anything said about Smith Wigglesworth. Would he be included in the classic Word of Faith foundations?
I believe so myself. They may not respond on such an old video.
It would be fair to acknowledge the mercy of God manifest in his ministries but equally fair to describe him as having a curate's egg ( perhaps a basket of eggs?) of views!
This episode is so important. So many heretic-hunters hear one negative thing and dismiss everything without thinking for themselves. Lots of strawman arguments. I don't personally know anyone who believes a word from the Spirit is above the Bible. It's current application that doesn't conflict with the Word of God.
They do very little exploration of the valid Scriptures behind the ugly excesses.
For instance, one important passage is Mark 11:23-24 where Jesus actually did say if you believe, "you will have what you say." And some took that ball and ran too far with it.
And "Give and it shall be given unto you." Luke 6:38 Prosperity!
And Jesus "healed all." Acts 10:38 and Matthew 8:16-18.
These are all in the Bible. To be believed. Just not to excess.
I don’t agree with most WOF teachings on healing, prosperity but these pale in comparison to the errors within the doctrines within Calvinism. Limited atonement? Heretical.
A clear case of not being able to see the forest for the trees....sad.
Nice! Really like this guy's approach. Seems really balanced imo
Please pray for me. I’m struggling to provide for my children since losing my job over not getting the vaccine. I declined due to my declining health (Lupus) and heart disease. We are facing homelessness every month is a struggle just to keep food on the table. Please keep me in your prayers. I’m keeping faith. I know God will provide! I have faith!
Will be praying for you mate 🙏🏻.
That's not right, the fact that you have a medical reason that you can't get vax'd, even if you wanted to. Unless people with an immune disease, like lupus, blood thinning problems etc... I don't know if it's now possible to get vax'd 🤷🏼♀️... But, yeah that's not fair on you.
I just took a few minutes to pray for you and your family.
If you live in the US or Canada, there's a service called Jabless Jobs that helps people like you find jobs. Look up their website. God bless you!
Praying for you!
Praying for you - that God will use this to bless you and use you more for His will and purpos.
Faith as “a force” in is New Thought (not Christian)
17:45 sorry brother idk how old you are but I’m in my mid 30s and my beard is half assed at best 😂 get used to it
"Give to get to give" sounds nice but it is NOT in the Bible. Nor is it a biblical principle. Generosity is a by product of love and should stand alone without concern of receiving. Sacrificial giving shows more concern for the "other" and is the type of love we are commanded to have.
If there is a need that we cannot fulfill then we are to ask and ask with the right heart.
Giving is not transactional! IT IS NEVER TAUGHT THIS WAY AND WE ARE NEVER LEAD TO THIS IDEA!!! THIS IS THE LAW! I DID A GOOD THING THERFORE GOD WILL GIVE TO ME!!!
May this never be taught to anyone. God forbid!
Yeah they say "Give to get to give" but these people that preach the "get" doctrine always live as extravagant lives as they can. I do not listen to them. If someone lives in a modest house or just enough land to make a living then I will listen to hear what they have to say.
As it regards the issue of faith.
Jesus said if your faith is as small as mustard seed you would say to this mountain Move....
What stopped the power of God from flowing through the disciples was Thier unbelief.
The only way the sacrifice of Christ can be real to is today is through faith in him. It's that simple.
What's the attack on the word of faith movement ?
And wow, had no idea about Spurgeon's healing ministry! Now I gotta read the book
@4:02 😳
Does anyone know what Mr. King means? Does Mr. Roundtree really agree or was he just . . . being polite or spmething?
Ephesians 1:20-22
[20] that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, [21] far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. [22] And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Ephesians 2:6
[6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
@@timkleiner868 thank you for your answer. My understanding is that heavenly places is not the same as the throne. The throne is in the heavenly places. We're going to be up in the heavenly places while Messiah sit at the right hand of the father on the throne.
@@NicoleCB the idea that Dr. King is saying is based on that text. That we are seated with Christ now. We are seated with him because we are “in him.” There is in a sense a joint-seating as we are joint heirs with him. The place is at the Father’s right hand. This is not a lower sitting. What part of the person sits on a throne, the head or the body?Ephesians 1:23 says we are his body. You cannot separate the head (Jesus) from the body (the church). If the head is seated then the body is as well.
Dr. King is not referring that we sit on the throne of the Father God but seated with Christ. Who himself is God, the second person of the Trinity and is one with the Father and of the same substance as the Father. Therefore, in what he said was not incorrect.
Positionally we are seated now and have all the the spiritual blessings of Christ available to us (Eph 1:3). However, we will not enter into the fullness of this until Christ returns. There is an “already but not yet” fact about this.
@@timkleiner868
Thank you, Mr. Kleiner!!!
I comphrend fully now. May YHVW bless you for taking the time to respond and give a thorough explanation.
Peace and grace,
Nicole
Don't smoke from your own stash
This video is blurring the lines. I can't...
Was Jesus blurring the lines when he said that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can tell this mountain to jump in the sea and it will do it if you don't doubt. Seems dangerously close to word of faith .... You can't determine if something is false just because it comes close to a heresy as the most powerful heresies tend to be very close to the truth and just a slight distortion, so there is always a danger of throwing out the truth to avoid the heresy.
@@gareth2736 Boom!
I can help you with the beard Rowntree! Got my full beard to come in doing a certain protocol with minoxidil and derma rolling within 6 months. Not sure how to reach out but if you actually want some info let me know 😂
We're going to need Paul to put his books on Kindle. Can someone tell him because they're only on paperback and I haven't had a paperback since Jesus was a baby
If only Justin Peters knew this instead of the nonsense he keeps parroting about WOF, but then again, mind like concrete.
Thoroughly mixed and permanently set.
Yes, he uses straw-man arguments instead of our Scriptures. We don't believe a word of knowledge is equal to Scripture, for instance. And we're often accused of that.
Have y’all heard of Samuel Morris The African missionary toAmerica. He was a great man of faith.
.. ..
Also, if someone likes to fly airplanes, and they want to fly jets, and they aren’t taking the money from the church to by a jet, I’m not going to judge. If they aren’t stealing from the flock, and they don’t have the love of money in them, who cares if they buy a jet to fly around; of course we hope they are that liberal at serving the brethren that need help.
A lot of ministers write books, songs, etc. and make a lot of money off that -- not necessarily from an inflated salary from a local church.
I find it difficult to associate with views that simply evidence the unreality of the position. Healing and this absurd focus on the individual and their desires to " live the life" typify the problem here. The heavy gnostic basis they evidence is always going to cause problems - because its not a judeo- Christian departure point esp when it comes to their view of man , creation and the Kingdom. The mortifying and ridiculous lifestyles of American WOF people simply diminishes the Gospel. I am ashamed of it.
Does that mean that God does not heal people or that sjgns and wonders do not occur in their meetings? Of course not. They do. But always their end of spectrum views ( which cannot by definition include " the already and the not yet" ) create absurd conclusions and outcomes when they attempt to justify them.
The saddest thing is that the message of the Kingdom is dead and buried with them. Add to this the (usual )linkages to untenable views on Israel & its a thread which is difficult to justify.
While for example we all love George Müller , and are sincerely grateful he escaped from the clutches of Darby, we know that he like others ( look at the extremism of Smith Wigglesworth) had weaknesses. But here we know the mercy of God intervened. And the Kingdom's Kings power was manifest and lives changed
Demonic intro music please change that😢
"2 THINGS"
1) You don't have to prove a historical connection with the word of faith movement and the new thought movement.. to prove that the word of faith movement has been heavily influenced by new thought Concepts... All you have to do is do the comparison between the two.. it's the same thing with Norman Vincent Peale with his teaching of positive thinking.. I think the similarities are undeniable.
2) On brother Kings downplaying on Hank Hanegraaff book Christianity in crisis..
the strong point of that book is that he gives you the very quotes of these men chapter and verse if you will.
A closing thought..
The modern-day Word of Faith movement Main proponents.. E W Kenyon, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, all of these men denied the sufficiency of the atoning blood of Christ upon the cross ..the Holy Spirit will never support nor backup any man that denies Christ's sacrifice upon the cross . Jesus did not die spiritually, neither did he suffer in hell to make atonement for sin ..it blows my mind.
And an aside...am I the only one who cringes when someone says Christians shouldn't judge. That would make a great episode some time. As far as I can tell, it's an over simplification of some texts
Well... You can believe in one thing : great men in the past experienced supernatural provision and healing. They read Bible for hours and prayed even more.
You can do either of two things :
1. Hating and Fighting WOF
2. Incorporating their (Hudson taylon, Charles Spurgeon etc..) practises in your spiritual walk.
I would say that you always have a chance to make the best choice.
@@danieljoshua4352
Sorry my brother I believe in Miracles and the gifts of the Spirit and have done so for 57 years..
Two choices I can make.. there's a ( 3 ) my dear brother.. I can contend for the faith.. attack the Cross of Christ like some of these men.. let me simply say the Cross of Christ is non-negotiable
I think the idea of the denying the atoning blood of the cross is an oversimplification and an excuse for you to deny WOF as a whole.
Jesus descent into hell is backed up with psalm 22, eph 4:9, col 2:15, acts 2:27, psalm 16 -- I know many won't agree and that's fine... but it's found in scripture and Early church writings. So to use this as a way to discredit a minister is not right. Not to mention, ministers in WOF circles are likely to be some of the first to "pleas the blood of Jesus" over a situation to change it.... now weather that is biblical or not is another discussion in itself.
@@BEABEREAN10
My dear brother if you get the Cross of Christ wrong you got another gospel and those guys get it wrong
"( they're not new converts that lack understanding they know better.. they understand the sacrifice of the cross that was the reality of the shadow of the levitical sacrifice and added onto it.. and changed it ) The judaizers tacked on into the doctrine of justification and Paul said let them be cursed, these guys have changed the very doctrine of the atonement.. they're denying the very foundation of the Christian faith which is centered in the cross and Christ..
( Kenyan, Hagin, Copeland,) and Men still offer them the right hand of Fellowship this is not acceptable they must repent before there's any Fellowship.. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
(An excuse to deny the whole word of faith movement you say).. this is an old argument that can't hold water. I do stand against any unsound teaching if it comes from the (white house or my house) and when it comes to the word of faith movement that has for it's Foundation the teaching of (Kenyan, Hagin, Copeland) pick your heresy.
As far as Jesus descending down into" Hades - hell, the place of departed spirits" it wasn't to suffer for the sins of mankind under Satan taking on the nature of Satan, and becoming the first born again man.. the second person of the trinity experience a sinful heart got problems.
You CAN'T extend the right hand of Fellowship to this they must repent and recant this teaching. I have brothers that are Word of Faith friendly and it seems that they get further out there this is the result of a unstable Foundation. But as Christ said as many as I love I rebuke and chasten.
WOF also was much influenced E. W. Kenyon. A very good book detailing the roots of the WOF movement is "A Different Gospel" by D.R. McConnell.
I kept waiting for the guest to bring up Kenyon but he never did. I also wished he would have given at least some sort of reference or evidence to his many wild claims, or at least used the Bible to support some things. As another commenter said "my Spidey senses were tingling throughout this interview."
What about the history of the WOF before Kenyon. Information in the book called A Different Gospel
Wait I'm confused...if I could please get clarification from Remnant if possible. 🤔
I love the purpose of this show is to get outside of our theological echo chamber. That's my heart. I actually mention that in one of my TH-cam videos about this channel. Also, that y'all have people on you do not agree with 100% . I have people I love that I don't theologically agree with 100%. I'm also helping a friend currently process leaving a word of faith church. I left one at 20. It's hard, ya know. That friend sent me this video and she said " I didn't know spurgeon was WOF!" Because I've been quoting spurgeon on discernment is between what is right and ALMOST right. We've been listening to sermons together and just dissecting the teachings and the differences.
So, I am asking for clarification... Is that what King is saying? The whole interview King....sounds almost right.
And also I think in the interview Josh was trying to show that; this is not the case. But correct me if I miss heard that Josh. I'm just nervous that people are going to walk away with their closing thought that Spurgeon was Word of Faith. Man, this was a hard episode for me. But, thank y'all for talking about the topic. 💕
Spurgeon was definitely not Word of Faith. That wasn’t even a thing at the time.
@@ChristiWilkes Exactly!
@@haileylindberg4365 I just started the video and I have concerns.
@@haileylindberg4365 About 25 mins in. I think he’s saying Spurgeon and others believed in asking God, in faith, for provision so the ministry could continue. Which is different than the contorted unbiblical mess that we know as Word of Faith.
The way I understood Mr. King's answer was that the WOF movement started with some principles related/similar to Spurgeon's ministry. The problem would have been that the movement selected tiny pieces of what was a solid theology to forge a twisted alternate one. Mr. King is explaining this with of a lack of knowledge for proper hermeneutics in the WOF movement and overaction (impulsivity) instead of really listening to the Holy Spirit.
51:19- you make the joke about changing the molecular structure of calories, but is there anything too hard for the Lord? Child-like faith is all that’s required.
Humans have already done that. It’s called artificial sweeteners. Our body doesn’t digest it so it provides no nutritional value hence why they’re called 0 calorie sweeteners. Why would God want to change the molecular structure of something he has made good, provide no nutritional value or benefit, simply so we can continue feed the desires of our emotions for unhealthy foods. Everything must be in balance and God gives us the ability to exert self control. No need for God to intervene here. Blessings!
@@jevenator
"Why would God want to change the molecular structure of something he has made good, provide no nutritional value or benefit, simply so we can continue feed the desires of our emotions for unhealthy foods"
God is God. He can choose to do whatever he wants to do in response to whatever faith someone may choose to have in him. Jesus could have decided to tell Peter to stay in the boat that men have created which would help them stay afloat on the sea, but, in response to Peter's faith and request, he allowed people to walk on water.
Now I'm not advocating a lifestyle of giving in to cravings, but I'm just saying that sometimes all that is needed is child-like faith. Afterall, he is the one that created everything and could choose to bend or alter the molecular structure at will.