The thing is that coding the vils to run from archers when in feudal is easy. Coding the vils to fight on the condition that the archers are in low numbers (ie 1 or 2) and also not making them chase too far if the archers are micro'd is entirely another thing. There are so many additional conditions to code and playtest to make sure that it works correctly, and when the game has many other issues like DE2 had when it was first released, allocating so many resources to how the AI responds to archers is not the highest priority
@@lamegamer4607 and this could be easily abused if the villagers always chased by baiting them into going on a wild goose chase which gets them off economy entirely. The point of this video is that AI are fundamentally dumb and can be abused. Obviously they have to be dumb to lose a 1v5.
I sympathise with the developers a bit. Not the easiest stuff to get right. How to define 'isolated'. When is it right for vills to attack. The obvious AI plan is to fight units with units, not vills. Say in the late game there's a battle going on close to the AI TC, and 2 human archers fire some shots at the vills - should the vills start attacking the archers, when meanwhile there are 30 units having a battle close by. A human player in that situation would just hide in the TC until it was safe, which is kind of what they are doing now - they 'expect' their units to fight, and then they go back to work. Getting the definitions of these situations right isn't so easy. This also makes me think the strat isn't so cheesy - coordinating production units and military units is exactly what humans are good at.
The real weakness of this AI seems to be that they are not capable to build defensive buildings. Some walls, some towers, a defensive castle and your archer rushes wouldn't be nearly as effective. But I guess it's hard to make them build properly placed defensive buildings. At least make them build towers near golds should be possible to program though I guess.
I really wish that we could have the date when this (also applies to the rest of the videos) was streamed, would help to know on what patch/update he's playing
If you view the description it kinda tells you that it's the newest patch with the changes :) It would be too much for me to keep track of with dates and versions etc, sorry!
i don’t understand this. they said they patched the ai so it does not resign if the ally is still playing. Game 1 ai resigns one after another like it was before. what the hell
@@-Kerstin I think it might have something to do with population. I had a 4v4 game with AIs and I nearly took out one of them, only 1 vil left. That AI did not resign, boomed back and even sent strong units with full upgrades in the end and we were defeated. I'm very surprised how they resigned so easily in this vid. Maybe they did so because they didn't not consider their allies to be strong since it's so early in the game and everyone's pop is somewhat low.
They never stated that they wouldn't resign if they have ally still playing. "Fixed an issue where AI players would resign too early while still having strong allies on the battlefield."
@@Zonalyre Maybe they take the point count as measure for resigning. Even with only one vill, you can still have a relative decent score. If you look at Vipers games His score was much higher than the ones of the AIs.
So good....! That was amazing - just how they started (and they usually will) attacking into you castle... then it will always be a good idea to have it with in their "stupid" face :D
Me: (sees length of video) Wow! The new AI must be a lot stronger if Viper needed an hour to finish a 1v4. TheViper: (20 minutes into the video) If you're watching on TH-cam, you probably got jebaited by the title. Me: ... Yes, I did...
So is this "just" a condition ai or an actual deep learning one? Many of the issues could definitely be solved by deep learning, xbox game studios definitely has enough resources to support such AIs and the simulation time necessary. Any information on this?
Why would that be the case? A deep learning ai costs performance on teaching, after the teaching its kind of similar to a normal condition ai, it just does decisions much better on actual experience and not on "if then" statements. A deepL ai is capable of adjustments and if teaching is on, then it will always beat the human player after some time. However, this wont be used mostly because of bad players that wouldnt prove a challenge to the AI and would actually ruin it. If it happens then it would have to play against a few good players for a couple hundred games (importance: a few, roughly 20 should be enough) after that it would have to play itself a few million times and then it definitely would beat any average player if the deep network is well thought out. Edit: New graphic cards use deep learning, that also doesnt cost extra performance, its done prior to consumer usage and then shipped with the next driver.
Hey, love your videos and this series. If you end up deciding that 1vs 7 Ai is impossible, would you possibly try it on "all visible" or some other kind of setting to give you an edge? Or have you done stuff like that already off stream?
I am not sure, but I believe the difficult AI is HD. I know it is from a previous release, but I believe the AI from that era is the really hard AI. I seem to remember that when we played the regular AI it was a good deal easier than the HD AI. Just AI I think may be more like the original AI from early 2000s.
Has anyone wondered if authors could add another unique technology to civs that would be bronze researchebal in feudal age in town center for example cumans extra 5% speed for 100 food 40 gold and more
I still dont think that Viper understands that on higher difficulties, the wolfs (lions, bears, etc) aggro radius is bigger than it is on normal/moderate. He always seems surprised that his forward vils are getting attacked when he puts up ranges
It's the inconsistency that's weird. On moderate and above, gaia wolf types *can* attack from 13 range away. But they don't always do so...they have 20 vision too so maybe something to do with the way they are facing?
I wish the updated the AI so it would attack lone archers with villagers and not just run from one or two with 10+ vills. Thats the biggest problem and its still not fixed.
AI always struggled against archers and thats why all pros and casters abuse archers against them, and why some of us ask them to play a fair match instead of abusing this Viper is the best player out there and the one most likely to get a win under a different context, so I hope he someday goes for it
You create a Control group for the scout then after pressing your group hotkey, you then press SPACE to go to group. E.g. my scout is set to CTRL-1, then I press 1 to select my scout, then I press SPACE to go to that selected unit
Also Viper.... whats the point of winning this if you use obvious exploit int the AI programing? Just against how many of them you are able to win with 20 mins treaty
This is so stupid, just 4 archers can render whole economy useless. Just if the devs revrite AI so it fight back against one lonely archer or two... this wouldnt happen
I watched Hera, Daut, tatoh, mbl, vivi and other play this game. And I got so much used to your playing style, it's hard to watch others play 😀 None matches your playing style
![ละลาย (LALALYE) - DAOU PITTAYA ต้าห์อู๋ พิทยา [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wo6r9TgausI/mqdefault.jpg)
So, this all only works because feudal vills don't attack isolated military units like 1-2 archers.
If they try to attack rather than flee a decent player can just micro the archers and end up killing even more.
@@LeeFerikson Not when there are only 2 archers
The thing is that coding the vils to run from archers when in feudal is easy. Coding the vils to fight on the condition that the archers are in low numbers (ie 1 or 2) and also not making them chase too far if the archers are micro'd is entirely another thing. There are so many additional conditions to code and playtest to make sure that it works correctly, and when the game has many other issues like DE2 had when it was first released, allocating so many resources to how the AI responds to archers is not the highest priority
@@lamegamer4607 and this could be easily abused if the villagers always chased by baiting them into going on a wild goose chase which gets them off economy entirely. The point of this video is that AI are fundamentally dumb and can be abused. Obviously they have to be dumb to lose a 1v5.
I sympathise with the developers a bit. Not the easiest stuff to get right. How to define 'isolated'. When is it right for vills to attack. The obvious AI plan is to fight units with units, not vills. Say in the late game there's a battle going on close to the AI TC, and 2 human archers fire some shots at the vills - should the vills start attacking the archers, when meanwhile there are 30 units having a battle close by. A human player in that situation would just hide in the TC until it was safe, which is kind of what they are doing now - they 'expect' their units to fight, and then they go back to work. Getting the definitions of these situations right isn't so easy. This also makes me think the strat isn't so cheesy - coordinating production units and military units is exactly what humans are good at.
Next patch. Unless 7vs1, AI auto resigns when enemy is called "TheViper"
The real weakness of this AI seems to be that they are not capable to build defensive buildings. Some walls, some towers, a defensive castle and your archer rushes wouldn't be nearly as effective. But I guess it's hard to make them build properly placed defensive buildings. At least make them build towers near golds should be possible to program though I guess.
“Bigger miracles have happened than me losing to an AI”
Viper is taking about losing to T90. 😀
I really wish that we could have the date when this (also applies to the rest of the videos) was streamed, would help to know on what patch/update he's playing
If you view the description it kinda tells you that it's the newest patch with the changes :) It would be too much for me to keep track of with dates and versions etc, sorry!
You could put a very small DaTe overlay in bottom left corner.
@@iplaythebasslol You mean a DauTe overlay?
20:32 I was, I thought the last guy would pull an incredible comeback 11
Even watching this at 0.25 speed, Viper is still faster at micro than me!
i don’t understand this. they said they patched the ai so it does not resign if the ally is still playing. Game 1 ai resigns one after another like it was before. what the hell
In the second game the purple AI seemed to take a really long time to resign so they probably did make some adjustments.
@@-Kerstin I think it might have something to do with population. I had a 4v4 game with AIs and I nearly took out one of them, only 1 vil left. That AI did not resign, boomed back and even sent strong units with full upgrades in the end and we were defeated. I'm very surprised how they resigned so easily in this vid. Maybe they did so because they didn't not consider their allies to be strong since it's so early in the game and everyone's pop is somewhat low.
They never stated that they wouldn't resign if they have ally still playing. "Fixed an issue where AI players would resign too early while still having strong allies on the battlefield."
@@Zonalyre Maybe they take the point count as measure for resigning. Even with only one vill, you can still have a relative decent score. If you look at Vipers games His score was much higher than the ones of the AIs.
Alternate title -
"Silver boi dwells on past achievements"
Oooooooh burn
(applies cooling aloe vera gel to burn area)
when will deepmind start working on this. should be top priority for them.
So good....! That was amazing - just how they started (and they usually will) attacking into you castle... then it will always be a good idea to have it with in their "stupid" face :D
I laugthed so hard to the new IA "bright" mind xD. Well done, sir, well done
20:31
can confirm
Dear diary, today I got jebaited :(
With this Improved AI:
King Sancho -> God Sancho
Don't know why AI spam skirmishers when I played with them, nothing like this vid.
Me: (sees length of video) Wow! The new AI must be a lot stronger if Viper needed an hour to finish a 1v4.
TheViper: (20 minutes into the video) If you're watching on TH-cam, you probably got jebaited by the title.
Me: ... Yes, I did...
I feel like red believed his cho ku nu had obsidian arrow...
They need to call TheMax to make a Barbarian, because it seems they're lost to make a good AI.
IKR? they keep saying how good this AI is but Barbarian is waaaaaaaaay better, it's just another level honestly.
Well Barbarian ai cheats with resources on higher difficulties
@@lamegamer4607 but it's still better since it can drush and fight effectively in feudal age, on hard difficulty it doesn't cheat though.
Again, great work man!
what are the improves, I feel that is the same first DE's IA
So is this "just" a condition ai or an actual deep learning one? Many of the issues could definitely be solved by deep learning, xbox game studios definitely has enough resources to support such AIs and the simulation time necessary. Any information on this?
It would probably make this game run like crap.
Why would that be the case?
A deep learning ai costs performance on teaching, after the teaching its kind of similar to a normal condition ai, it just does decisions much better on actual experience and not on "if then" statements. A deepL ai is capable of adjustments and if teaching is on, then it will always beat the human player after some time. However, this wont be used mostly because of bad players that wouldnt prove a challenge to the AI and would actually ruin it. If it happens then it would have to play against a few good players for a couple hundred games (importance: a few, roughly 20 should be enough) after that it would have to play itself a few million times and then it definitely would beat any average player if the deep network is well thought out.
Edit:
New graphic cards use deep learning, that also doesnt cost extra performance, its done prior to consumer usage and then shipped with the next driver.
@@derdotte That is fair
The AI does more counter units now.in the first game, if it had resources, it would have switched into champs or zerks as soon as it saw eagles
Still waiting for the 1v7
1:00:10
"thou art human"
Are you sure about that Olaf?
Hey, love your videos and this series. If you end up deciding that 1vs 7 Ai is impossible, would you possibly try it on "all visible" or some other kind of setting to give you an edge? Or have you done stuff like that already off stream?
Snippin' those knights ... what a treat
24:26, you missed a golden opportunity for a daut joke. "bigger miracles have happened before, like daut getting up a castle"
me too
Haven't seen King Sancho queueing up lately. Lucky.
I am not sure, but I believe the difficult AI is HD. I know it is from a previous release, but I believe the AI from that era is the really hard AI. I seem to remember that when we played the regular AI it was a good deal easier than the HD AI. Just AI I think may be more like the original AI from early 2000s.
Has anyone wondered if authors could add another unique technology to civs that would be bronze researchebal in feudal age in town center for example cumans extra 5% speed for 100 food 40 gold and more
I still dont think that Viper understands that on higher difficulties, the wolfs (lions, bears, etc) aggro radius is bigger than it is on normal/moderate. He always seems surprised that his forward vils are getting attacked when he puts up ranges
It's the inconsistency that's weird. On moderate and above, gaia wolf types *can* attack from 13 range away. But they don't always do so...they have 20 vision too so maybe something to do with the way they are facing?
Hi. I heard from my friend that themax is developing barbarian ai for de. Is it true?
Why do these AIs against Viper only spam knights ? When I go for an archer push they make full skirms...
I wish the updated the AI so it would attack lone archers with villagers and not just run from one or two with 10+ vills. Thats the biggest problem and its still not fixed.
AI always struggled against archers and thats why all pros and casters abuse archers against them, and why some of us ask them to play a fair match instead of abusing this
Viper is the best player out there and the one most likely to get a win under a different context, so I hope he someday goes for it
1:07 thank you bowsette
28:05 omg
u can use patrol to guard 2 near lumber camp with one archer
12:17 I've had that happen to me as well.
does supply effect on eagles? or just militia line?
Nobody:
Villager @ ~7:40: ArArArArArArArArshi
Future challenge: TheViper vs AlphaEmpires AI (1v1)
What is the hotkey to zoom to the scout? I can't figure it out and most hotkeys only select the unit, not zoom in to it.
You create a Control group for the scout then after pressing your group hotkey, you then press SPACE to go to group. E.g. my scout is set to CTRL-1, then I press 1 to select my scout, then I press SPACE to go to that selected unit
You can also press 1 twice instead of 1+space
in de there is a hotkey to select and center a created control group
@@danlanning13 Thanks everyone!
Also Viper.... whats the point of winning this if you use obvious exploit int the AI programing? Just against how many of them you are able to win with 20 mins treaty
YESSS, how do you keep putting out quality content???
I like you too, Bowsette_IRL :)
I even can't win against hard.
art of war scenario is the way to go :)
I wall myself in and make 2 towncenters. Seems to work most of the time.
i googled how tall is theviper, and it said viper is 188 feet tall. that's 57.3 meters, man. wow! you need some big shoes.
Me: “omg the video is longer than 20 mins, he did it, he beat 6 AI”
Viper: “we are starting again from 4 today”
D:
26:04
‘Why tho’
So King Sancho is now even stronger?!
@ 41:45 blue score went from 1706 to 1743 and back to 1706 in a second. Anyone know how?
Some villagers drop resources and then the AI spend them...
@@FITITOFAN k thats a lot of resources then?
That doesn't seem like a lot of points, but it could be that they decided to research upgrade after they got the res dropped off
sara conor is loking for you,u are a pretty good againts machines
What about AOE Definitive Edition?
Blech
@@icecoldchilipreppers Hab ich dann gemerkt.. :P
What about adopt a noob finals? @TheViperAOC - Age of Empires 2
Blue in game 1 was obviously King Sancho smurfing.
Next one Please Viper :) :) :)
These are amazing :) :)
This is new patch!
nice
DUDE EVEN CALLED MY JEBAIT WTF
You have to max out your pop, otherwise you take a long time...
I wanna see viper try 1v4 extreme on team islands. Should be an amusing fail
Silver boi is such a try hard.
I bet the AI queues like 20 minutes of commands for units. I bet the scouts running around after they resigned are just still following orders
27:03
You only won 1v4 because the spanish player was Álvarez de Toledo. If it was king alfonso you would be dead!
I think you might have meant the powerful King Sancho though.
Please make your vids louder, the ads are so god damn loud.
What be the point
Mayans again? :(
TKs only challenge plis
Played as Cumans with Huns and Britons as my allies (3 vs 5). Got our asses kicked :) :) :)
Hi
hello..........
Hey
So powerful
Man it still doesn't know how to counter
105
hola.... :)
1000th like lets gooooo
Add patch version to title.
This is so stupid, just 4 archers can render whole economy useless. Just if the devs revrite AI so it fight back against one lonely archer or two... this wouldnt happen
Hi DJSapsan
Owo
UwU
lol
I watched Hera, Daut, tatoh, mbl, vivi and other play this game. And I got so much used to your playing style, it's hard to watch others play 😀 None matches your playing style
What's difference between them ?
archer damage needs a big nerf tbh
they are way to effective
either nerf damage or speed, or cost.
should a villager be able to get shot with more than 5 arrows and survive? Those would be pretty lame arrows...