I'm not the biggest fan of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (I'm still of the opinion there are three Indy movies), but I won't lie, there is something about seeing Indy getting married and settling down as a family man with a wife and son I do like. I still prefer the original ending of him and his dad riding off together into the sunset, but it's overall a nice enough epilogue for the character. Too bad even this one decent element had to be ruined by Kathy and Disney.
@death-king1834 KOTCS is bad and he was too old then to play him. This last one was a joke and I skipped it. I agree with at least he sort of got an ending, even if he'd already got the perfect one
My grandpa was happily married with grandchildren while still being very physically active in his 80s. Has Mangold never met a single happy senior citizen? Being old doesn't mean life is trash
Because these narcissists refuse to learn. You give the fans what they want. You don't make what YOU want and demand the fans like it. Nobody wanted to see old depressed Indy take a back seat to an insufferable girl boss. You could have easily made this a father/son bonding film by bringing Short Round back. But no, the message was more important.
@@46sn29Idk I think artists (im using that term very loosely here) are entitled to make things for themselves that they like, BUT that also means they can’t complain when everyone else hates it, because they made it for themselves. You can’t have it both ways, either it’s for you or it’s for the fans, just be clear who it’s for, and realize that our job as your fans isn’t to suck you off for doing your job, ESPECIALLY if it isn’t even for us.
None of the fans cared whether the director really loved the ACTOR Harrison Ford, as he says he did. What we cared was that he denigrated and degraded the CHARACTER Indiana Jones.
I'd say more seeing them try to pretend an 80 year old man can still bring the same energy he did at the prime of the series MAY have been a bit....misjudged, I don't know.
It’s pretty simple. The fans are YOUR CUSTOMERS. Make whatever you want, but if you don’t give them what they want, they’ll spend their money elsewhere.
@@archmage_of_the_aether yeah in comparison to a lot of stuff its more of a 'swindling' people for cash at this point. Film makers are risking being put in the same block of undesirables as phone scammers
We had nothing wrong with Harrison Ford being old. We had a problem with Harrison Ford being MADE FUN OF, because he was old, and being pushed aside by some girl none of us had ever heard of, and mocked by her, through the whole movie. If they wanted to do a sidekick, they should have brought back Short Round. Ke Huy Quan would have jumped at the chance to come back. Did you see him at the Oscars? He's almost 50, but when he ran on stage and hugged Harrison Ford, he was 10 years old again. But no, Kathleen had to shove her "girl power" bullshit in all of our faces, and ruin yet another lucrative IP. Indiana Jones is THREE movies long. Period.
Lets not forget how they brought back John Rhys Davies just for Indi to tell him to f* off and reject one last adventure. That was basicaly telling us fans they know we want that, and mocking us for wanting it.
Thank you! This is exactly it right here. All they needed was to bring back short round and have an awesome adventure with just him and Indy, she no girl power bullshit along the way. It would’ve been so much better!
Tbh, it did stretch credulity pretty hard to watch an 80 year old man defeating hoards of young men in a fist fight. I guess I can forgive that for the sake of one last Harrison Ford Indie movie, but I only made if halfway through when I got bored to death of 80% of the movie being nothing but first fights while driving really fast. It's like we have a new generation of Hollywood writers who have lost a basic understanding: excitement is only exciting when given in controlled doses. It's not exciting to inject the most extreme excitement non-stop for hours.
They chose PWB over the fans! They can blame us all they want! We are done seeing our favorite characters shoved into the dirt and pissed on for The Message!
The best thing to come out of DOD was that premiere in which Spielberg honoured the “glue” that held the franchise together, and intentionally left KK out, in which she visibly looked completely peeved as her husband quickly ushered her off stage? Brilliant troll by Speilberg!!! 😂
The blindingly obvious thing to do would have been to re-unite Indy with Short Round from Temple of Doom - the actor is still working in the business, and you'd have had instant chemistry and nostalgia pull: unlike with Phoebe Waller Bridge who seems to have been put into the movie just to annoy the fan base and humiliate the lead character.
Not to mention they also had given Indy a son in the previous movie. They could have had the son get mixed up in some shady business in Asia and go missing (he’s on the hunt for some artifact). Indy comes out of retirement to find him and enlists short round’s help. Let the young guys do all the action.
@ Yep. It’s not rocket science. Same with the Disney SW sequels. 5 fans sitting around drinking beers could have come up with ideas far more interesting than the utter trash that they made. All of Hollywood needs to be purged, they are nothing but a bunch of talentless hacks.
We promise not to be fans any longer . Things coming to an end shocks no one past about 25. We all lose things and people. Friends fall away. Older family members die, We graduate grade and high school... we end our childhoods, pets die. What I don't like, and I'm a 70+ fan, was I saw the trailers and they didn't respect Indiana Jones. He was a great hero and needed a dignified last movie. He needed to be a hero, one last time before he retired. They treated him like garbage to be done with, a broken-hearted old man with very little to show for all his glorious youthful adventures. It was EVIL. I saw the trailers, listened to the commentators and walked away without ever seeing the movie.
Director: "I failed at this thing I did, I blame the "fans"." CEO: "I failed this quarter on reaching our earning projections, I blame the investors." Carpenter: "I failed to make a table that stands straight, I blame the floor." Chef: "I failed to make a meal and it tasted like DS, I blame the customer." etc. etc.
Tbf if I make a table that's perfectly square and plumb, with the legs perfect flat such that the top is perfectly level, and then I put it in the customer's house and it's suddenly incredibly wonky, it's entirely fair to blame the floor. Also tbf, the carpenter actually WOULD be the person at fault, as carpenters are construction workers (they frame houses, do drywall, flooring, cabinets etc) while a woodworker/joiner would have built the furniture. A better analogy would be a carpenter framing a house with half the necessary studs, no rafters, no joists etc and blaming the mill where he bought the lumber when the entire thing collapses.
Really Annoyed that Mangold decided to blame the fans rather than the movie just being plain bad. What makes me really upset the most was him saying we couldn't accept Harrison getting old, when the best part of the film was the opening scene on the train. Ive really liked several of his films, and its really frustrating to see that.
Guide to Lucas Film under Disney Step 1: take a beloved franchise Step 2: disrespect any existing characters or established lore whilst introducing an annoying Mary Sue girl boss as the new main character Step 3: film bombs Step 4: blame the fans
James Mangold made Logan…no one had an issue with Wolverine being old or X-23 being introduced as his legacy. Pheobe Waller-Bridge just rubbed Indy’s face in all the shit that this film cruelly lumped on him like a dog begging for death.
Studio releases crappy product. Said product loses money. Creatives blame fans for failure. Fans abandon the IP. Studio announces more crappy products. Repeat cycle.
It’s actually crazy how little impact Indy 5 had on public discourse. Aside from film review channels and culture war commentators I don’t think I had a single conversation about it IRL.
Funnily enough Sean Connery wasn’t that much older than Harrison Ford. But yeah, the way he played Henry Jones was spot on. What he lacked for big stunts or action he made up for with his intelligence and charisma. The “I’ve done it all before” factor.
Which is exactly the role they should have had Indy play in this movie. His son, disappeared in after returning from Vietnam and Indy has to come out of retirement to bail him out of trouble (or some such variation of this theme). Indy uses his wits instead of his brawn, once he and his son are reunited the son takes all the action scenes. Literally every single fan would have been fine with old man Indy if the movie had been good and didn’t have a girl boss in it.
The bottom line is that Last Crusade was a perfect send-off for Indy so *anything* that came after was going to have a hard time overcoming the lack of momentum; Indy’s story was done. As a character, there was no more story to tell. Handing off to some other character was the only way to keep the franchise going, but it would have to be a character that fans of Indy would embrace. Crystal Skull fumbled that catastrophically. I feel there is a worthwhile comparison to be drawn with another franchise: Star Trek The Undiscovered Country gave the original crew a perfect send-off; second star on the right and straight on ‘til morning, and the cast signatures in the credits… about as final a finality as was possible. Then we got Generations. Whatever you think of that film as a whole and whatever the actual reasons for the lack of original cast characters in that story, the result was a token, but significant, presence of characters, necessary to pass the baton to the new (Next Gen) crew. And to justify their presence (rightly or wrongly) the story weaves in a literal ending for the figurehead original crew member as well as the vessel that literally brought the new crew into play, providing a clearly delineated but narratively authentic transition from new to old. That the Next Gen films that followed were pale shades of the Original Crew adventures is unfortunate. I believe that was largely due to the decision to retain the entire ensemble cast of the next gen crew. That ensemble is helpful for a TV show to have adventures for different characters over a season’s worth of stories, but creates a real problem in a movie where you need a tight story following a smaller number of characters. To that extent, Generations was a missed opportunity to dispose of some of the weaker, less interesting next gen main cast. I have some picks but won’t list them here to avoid creating arguments about which crew would have been the better choices to continue the story, though I think it’s fairly obvious…. :) Generations, for me, is the most Trek-like next gen story. First Contact was a misfire attempt at an action film (lots to recommend but suffering some fatal flaws), Insurrection was a misfire attempt to find a Next Gen vibe in a movie. Nemesis… I need to watch again, but the fact that - as far as - I can recall I’ve only ever watched it once says something in itself. Dragging this back to Indy…. After Last Crusade, Crystal Skull should have featured Indy in a much smaller role with a new character taking up the role of franchise lead. This was made more difficult by the lack of an established character to hand over to, so the story had to work overtime to achieve that. But by giving so much time to Indy himself, the story wrote itself into an impossible situation and failed to achieve a hand-over in any sense. Which left Dial of Destiny to clumsily attempt to fabricate another ending for a character that had already had the perfect ending. It could have worked in the hands of a particularly talented writer with a genuine love for the character, but the stars didn’t align so what we got was a cash-grab that thankfully failed. (the saddest part being that given the machinations of Hollywood Accounting, even as a financial disaster I am sure that Dial of Destiny was turned into a “success” from a bean counting perspective by creating tangible losses that could be offset against tax liabilities incurred by other, more successful productions)
Same here. They seem to think we have some sort of responsibility towards them. we don't. What is ridiculous is they say these movies are for "modern audiences" but also say they think we fans owe them our attendance... they didn't make the movie for us, they made for others, we noticed and didn't spend our money.
Random Film Talk! So happy to see him here. Well, not 'see' but you know what I mean. I died laughing during his Rings of Power recaps. 😂 AND Echo Chamberlain?! Another favorite channel, I don't miss an upload! 👌
How they brought back John Rhys Davies just for Indi to tell him to f* off and reject one last adventure. That was basicaly telling us fans they know we want that, and mocking us for wanting it.
James Mangold (who i think is great director) responded to my tweet years ago denying mutliple things about Indy 5 that all ended up being true. This guy vanity searched his name during reshoots and was so thin skinned he had to respond to me and essentially called John Williams a liar 😂
"Do better! ...By which I mean give me money." "No." "...Well we think you're nasty istophobes!" "Don't care." "You keep this up and we'll make a hackneyed parody of you in our next terrible film!" "Won't see it. Doesn't matter." "You're a bully!" "You represent a studio worth over 8 figures. I am a random guy in a home office on a PC." "STOP IT!!! We'll tell on you! T.T"
I finally watched that last Indy movie and it was like watching a modern day CGI video game on autopilot. The action just didn't feel real at all. And I didn't give two cents about any of the characters, including Indy and Marion, despite having been a fan of Indy in the first three films.
Mangold made "3:10 to Yuma" and "Ford v Ferrari". He should be able to recognise the huge, gaping, bottomless chasm between these movies and Not-Indy 5.
You'll notice, hopefully, that the director of Indy 5 did not mention Feables Character? I haven't read the article, and I am curious to know if he acknowledged the fan's reactions to HER supplanting Indiana Jones? THAT was the BIGGEST reason that the fans disliked the director's view on an "old, aged" Indy Jones.
I'm white. Male. Straight. Which means I've done everything wrong since birth, but this has to happen so humanity can become enlightened and more inclusive, or something
Someone in the studio must have questioned PWB punching old man Indie, so the answer must have been ‘nah it’ll be funny and fine’. Except it wasn’t and just shows how hypocritically messed up these people are.
What killed Indiana Jones was the one where he was searching for glass heads that were aliens and then UFOs showed up and stuff. It was pretty stupid. Maybe it was also the one where he survived a nuclear bomb by jumping into a fridge at just the right moment. I feel like all that garbage featured some dumb warehouse scene because "compelling" compared to Ark of the Covenant face melting and ball traps and all that other popular stuff from the originals.
Went to _her_ twitter page the last time _she_ threw a sissy-fit. The comments were mostly from the snobbish of the snobs agreeing with _her_ . That industry needs to be torn down. Nothing of value will be lost.
Why do people think he _ever_ cared? Ford never "cared" about Han Solo either. The man is a working actor and it's silly to think he has to be a "fan" at the same time. Anyone paying attention would understand that his roles are a paycheck, not a fetish. He's made this very plain in innumerable interviews for decades....
I'm glad I never watched Dial Of Destiny. I'm happy pretending Last Crusade was the last Indiana Jones movie and The Great Circle video game is a prequel filling in gaps from before.
They'll take all the praise for a project succeeding but none of the blame for it failing. And these people wonder why the audience just finds it amusing to watch their industry fall apart now? Same goes for AAA gaming too.
Yes. Ford was too old and the fourth film was a bad idea and not well received and that should have told them to not try again. Spielberg and Lucas accepted that and worked away as they could not make it work or come up with anything good. And that was it. Till Lucas sold Lucasfilm to Disney and they put Krapthleeen Krapperdy in charge. Its not Mangolds fault. Its KKs. She green lit this, she wanted it made, she put PWB in to it, the whole thing was her project, ideas and all. Including her original ending of PWB taking over by writing Indy out of everything by killing him so he never happened! Mangold came in to direct later in the day and he was just the director that they managed to talk into it and keep him around to make and finish the thing. I have way less respect for him now though, because of this, because if he had half a brain, or was an Indy fan he would have told them to shove it, refused to make it and he would have known it was a bad idea and disaster in the making.
@@Bailonus Yes that is exactly why made Dial of Disaster. Didnt work out very well for her though did it? The worst Indiana Jones film of them all, and a total flop millions in the red. The worst Star Wars films of all time, the worst Star Wars series of all time, the worst Willow series / sequel etc of all time. All flops and fails and costing millions and losing even more. And yet she is still in charge...
@@josay3394 Yes he did. A tweet was put up by a movie buff that said something along the lines of - Given the Ford is nearly 80, Lucas and Spielberg are not involved and Kathleen Kennedy is in charge, does anyone think dial of Destiny will be any good? And Mangold etc went mental and started trying to shoot all the points made, down. And all the poster was talking about was Kathleen had a bad track record by then with Star Wars, and there were reshoots galore already going on for Indy. Turns out he was bang on the money. But all he was doing was saying in a very public place, what everyone online, and Indy fans were thinking. Ford was too old in Crystal Skull, it was the weakest film and it should have been left alone after Last Crusade. To come back and have another go even more years later was just stupid. It was not altogether Mangolds fault, he was just doing his job, and doing what Kathleen told him to do. If it was not him, she would have found someone else. And as he was getting paid, he had to defend the film and his work and stay onside with KK and Lucasfilm. The sensible thing for him to do though, would have been to stay totally silent. Then just promote the film when the time came in as positive way as possible. It would not help the film as it was terrible, but it would have helped his public image with fans and movie goers alike....
Mangold didn't just fail as a director; he failed as a human being when he singled out and bullied "lying" fans while (we later discovered) Mangold was the one without basic integrity..
It's sad to see franchises stray from the original concept and go downhill, it happens again and again. I think of series like 'Sliders', which was supposed to be about travelling to alternate histories, but after the first 2 seasons it turned into a rip-off of Star Trek and anything else vaguely popular, replaced most of the cast and became a train wreck.
I choose not to acknowledge the existence of crystal skull and DoD. If people these days can reject basic biology then I shouldn’t have to accept shitty movies and TV that destroy legacy and lore. That includes Indiana Jones, rings of power, new Star Wars and Star Trek, and pretty much whatever else I choose.
Fans learning this is the gift this hellish era. In 2001 when Ed Brubaker ruined Catwoman, you heard actual conversations like "I don't like it either but this is how it is now and we just have to accept it." I tried to tell them _No, you bloody well don't. It's your money, your time, AND YOUR IMAGINATION._ You do not have to let some opportunistic hack take it from you. Today, there is no franchise where fans have not had to learn that. It's your money and your time and your heroes. They have no power you do not give them. Say no.
I was obligated to see Dial of Disappointment at my nephews birthday party. My ticket was already paid for, and I still felt ripped off. I was robbed of 3 hours of time.
I think the heart of the problem is that no one on this film understands the character of Indy. Indy is one of those characters that doesn't go thru character arcs...he never changes as a person. And some characters are meant to be that way. He learns new things, wins and loses allies, faces set backs, even has moments of self-doubt...but he always rallies himself to go back to who he always remains at his core. (Not a shocker when you consider he's an homage to heroes of movie serials. Serialized stories tend to avoid character changes, so audiences can drop in for the most recent adventure without worrying feeling they are seeing a new person because events in an episode they missed.) This is all key to why people like Indy...he's the rare character who audiences do *not* want to change and grow. Had they stayed true to that...they could have showed him old, and even showed him passing the torch, and fans would have been fine with it. It would not have been seen as great...but it could have been an acceptable (albeit unnecessary) entry in the Indiana Jones mythos.
We didn't reject Indie because he was old, we rejected him becoming an alcoholic bum, and we rejected his girl boss granddaughter who was extremely unlikable
As a fan I couldn't accept that things come to an end, that's why I didn't bother seeing the 2024 movie in a franchise that had a proper ending in 1989.
The sad part is they had the bones of a good story. Keep the overall plot points the same. Drop the dumb shit. Remember that Indy doesn’t teach at the local Junior College. He teaches at a university. He’s still respected. He’s still a good teacher. Facilitate a conversation that talks about how each year there are less and less students taking an interest in archeology and the past. Indy and Marion are still together, still fiery, but very much in love. If they don’t want to recast Mutt, fine. But instead of being dead, he’s off doing something. He loved mechanics. What if he’s become a autoshop teacher at a vocational college. It’s not as prestigious as Indy would have wanted, but it’s respectable because he’s teaching. And more importantly, he’s doing what he loves. Mention that Mutt is divorced, but Indy and Marion have grandkids. Keep Voller’s motivations the same. His goal is still to use the Antikythera to go back and change the past in the same way. Remove his connection to the CIA. He got into the US because of scientific contributions after the war. Fine. But he’s dropped off the radar, changed his name. The government is looking for him, there’s our CIA or FBI connection to the plot. Indy has met Voller already, so at some point, he’ll recognize him and start to deduce what’s really in play. Keep Helena as the potential protégé, but write her as an actual character with an actual arch. Cast someone believable in the role. Have her find him in the classroom like before. His lesson on the importance of the past. He say something along the lines of his “X” marks the spot line harkening back to the OT. Also have him say something along the lines of the importance of historical integrity. “The present isn’t meant to shape our past. Our past is meant to shape our future.” This shows Indy’s reverence for the past, and serves as a critique our current-day trends to reshape history in the name of DEI. As the adventure unfolds and globetrotting begins, we see that Helena is good, promising even, but not perfect. There are things she can learn from Indy. It’s apparent that she has the thirst for adventure, but doesn’t really have the reverence and respect for what’s at stake. Indy is the opposite, his thirst for adventure isn’t what it used to be. It becomes more and more apparent that he can’t keep up like he used to, and he knows it. Have him Danny Glover it as he becomes more and more weary. “I’m getting too old for this shit,” but in Indy-speak. His goal isn’t the adventure, it’s the preservation of History. The story culminates in the penultimate stage of the original movie, Archimedes Tomb. Preferably hidden somewhere a little more believable. Somewhere not regularly visited by tourists. Voller still gets both halves of the Dial. He unites them. Air and dust begin to shift and swirl. It’s clear something is happening. Special effects ensue. But it goes nowhere. Indy and co manage to stop him. Indy shoots Voller is the chest, and Helena catches the Antikythera as it falls from Vollers’ hand, separating it at the last moment. Triumph! Voller lies there defeated and dying. He says something to Helena who is beside him holding the two halves of the Dial. “You saw it… It was working…” in a weak somewhat surprised tone. Revealing that he never really believe it was real. He was risking everything on the mere possibility of being able to rewrite the past. He turns his attention to Indy. “I could have done it, Dr. Jones. I could have changed History…" He dies. In the end, an aged world-weary Indy and his youthful protégé have a moment regard the dead antagonist. “Do you really think it would have worked?” she asks, holding the two halves of the Antikythera. “Time travel?” Here we repurpose Indy’s line about the things he’s seen in his adventures, and lead into: “It doesn’t matter whether or not it would have worked. History has never been ours to change. We’re meant to study it. Learn what worked and what didn’t. What led to greatness…” gesturing around at the place in which they find themselves. “What led to atrocity…” gesturing to the dead nazi. Now it’s the protégés turn to pick up the thread. Harkening back to what Indy had said at the beginning of the movie in the classroom, Helena quotes: “Our present doesn’t shape our past. Our past shapes our future.” She’s not the same character she was at the beginning. She’s learned the importance of what Indy’s adventures really was. She removes a few small pieces of the inner workings of the Dial and tosses them in opposite dusty corners of the tomb, then puts the Antikythera back together. It lies inert. No more threat to the past and now safe for a museum. “So, what’s next?” Helena asks as the pair exit the scene, she with youthful vigor and Indy clearly feeling his age. “The future’s yours, kid. I’m going home and staying in the past…” Helena scoffs and immediately begins throwing out suggestions for their next adventure, with Indy putting up a weary hand to try and curb her as the scene fades to black. Fin. Torch passed. (Not that it ever need to be...)
There are so many rumors about what happened in the production of "Dial" that it's difficult to know what's real and what is speculation. What is undeniably true is that it's a movie that profoundly did not need to be made. Yes, the star of your action-heavy franchise is in his 80s; did it occur to anyone that that might demand considered handling beyond slapping on CG?
Raiders: I was on the edge of my seat. Temple of Doom: I was biting my nails. Last Crusade: I cheered throughout. Perfect ending. ************************* Crystal Skull: I laughed at how bad it was. Dial of Destiny: I fell asleep halfway through, and didn't care.
I watched halfway through Indie 5 and what made me unable to finish it was that the whole god damned movie was nothing but people fighting while driving really fast. Every moment of dialogue felt like a brief rest before returning to the main plot: fist fights while driving fast. It's like Hollywood is run by 10 year olds now. "You know what makes a movie great? Excitement! The more excitement, the better the movie!" They've completely lost the ability to understand that excitement isn't exciting if it's ALL THE TIME.
Ford's age and energy in the trailers certainly weren't enticing. But I could name about a hundred other things, that made me avoid this movie, and none of them had anything to do with Harrison Ford.
My thoughts: - When a movie (or series) flops, it's not because of the fans, it's because the creators failed to turn people into fans. - Old actors are not a problem. It's the way age is addressed and the way these characters are treated that is a problem. Take Star Trek VI, for example, in which the characters are treated respectfully and age is not only addressed, but also made a subject of discussion.
The worst part was Phoebe punching him in the face and removing the choice of how he wanted to die in the time era he dreamed of… but NOPE 👊🏻 Why aren’t they screaming about Indianas ‘agency’ being stolen away. In the Acolyte they screamed like banshees how Sol took away the girls agency because he ‘accepted his death’ “she couldn’t even take it from him the way she wanted to💁♀️” they come up with these weird psychotic, narcissistic plots and reasonings and it’s just so azzbackwards
I didn't see this Indy movie, but what you describe reminded me of the horrible Star Wars moment when Rose took away Finns sacrifice, a moment that took away Finn doing something unexpected, badass, and would have given the character at least some gravitas.
Didn't she just suddenly stab Seoul and interrupt him while he was trying to tell her what happened? Are you thinking of Master Yes who drank the poison?
I'm still stunned that Hollywood still won't alter it's ridiculous model for getting people to see their bad entries of franchises after the past few years... Step 1: Insult and slander your audience for being too stupid, racist, bigoted, homophobic, sexist, etc. for not loving your take on a franchise. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!
There's many issues of Dial ... Phoebe Waller Bridge, Script issues, James Mangold is a good direct , but he's no Spielberg ...Harrison Ford gave a very good performance which is sad, because the movie itself didn't do him justice. Plus being under the Disney umbrella doesn't help either. Phoebe Waller Bridge isn't a bad actress her character is written so annoyingly , but it's ironic she's one of the main reasons that Dial failed and she's also hugely responsible for ruining James Bond's last outing as a screenplay writer .
Indy is my hero. To the point where I actively avoid any news about Harrison Ford just to avoid hearing something that might affect how I see him. Hearing the first ending involved completely erasing Indy for what's her face made me nauseous. Very glad I haven't seen this mess
I always say this with Indy 5: they had a blueprint for what to do with him from Sean Connery's role in Indy 3. It was pure lunacy to not just take that as inspiration. Sean Connery's Dr. Jones is STILL winning at life, has something to say and teach, and is respected and fully developed, while still being able to learn something. In other words, a real character that is still sympathetic and admirable. Nope, they wanted to subsume a character to prop up another, shallower one. Hard pass...
I love how James acts like Disney had a gun to his head and forced him to make this movie… “You don’t understand! He has to be an old, sad failure! What was I gonna do, NOT make another cash-grab installment???”
They missed their window in the 90s to do another one. We got the cameo in YIJA in 1993. Honestly, swap the DoD plot with Crystal Skull, along with Mads Mikkelson as the bad guy, and have Cate Blanchett as Helena, you would've had a better movie in 2008. Truth is, Ford is too old to play Indy in DoD. And it's OK to admit it.
Exactly, you get old. I am sick of hearing this from people at each birthday I have. I am getting older. I can no longer run flat out, I get tired earlier in the evening. Walking is harder, I get aches and squeaks and clicks in my joints from time to time. And I not "old" its just that I am not young anymore. And that stupid saying age is just a number etc is utter bullsheert. Age is age. We get old. And you feel it eventually. Its inevitable and a fact of life. Trying to pretend you are 18 when you are 50 or 60 something is just embarrassing.
What I don’t understand is if you’re reading the script and realise that they are blatantly destroying your character why would you agree to this assasination? These actors don’t need the money. Ford, Hamil etc.
So many people in the film industry are out of touch with the fan bases nowadays and they forget that the fans are the make or break for them. Then when it fails they double down with bs excuses.
I didn't think 'Crystal Skull' was that bad. It at least had some nice moments, eg. the father-and-son stuff, the delving into old tombs and temples, the up-beat ending at a wedding... I didn't think the theme of aliens was too out of keeping. 'Ancient alien' and 'other dimensions' theories tie in reasonably well with the established mythology and mystery topics. It also tied in to the 1950s Cold War era and the psychic spying and mind control experimented with by both sides. (Granted I prefer the more mystical and religious elements in the earlier films, especially the first and third.) Nothing in 'Crystal Skull' came across as mean-spirited, demoralising or insulting, though. I still haven't seen DoD, which seems to have been DoA, and from what I hear I'm probably best continuing to avoid it. I knew I didn't want to see it when I heard they killed off Mud.
How about the fact that every time in the movie Indy goes to someone he knows for help, she gets them killed. He has to watch all of his friends die as a result of her pursuit.
The director's comments would be the same as McDonald's blaming the failure of the Arch Deluxe on their customers. The fact is that Hollywood is going back to previous franchises to see if they can squeeze more money out of the intellectual property that they own instead of coming up with original ideas.
Crazy times we live in. Back in the day film companies were striving to find out exactly what movie goers wanted and tried to deliver something that would get people flocking to the cinema and earn them a pretty penny. Now if a film flops it's because the "bigoted" audience are all in the wrong and we should love the film? 🤣
Indiana Jones belonged to the 80s. It was a product of its time. We can't go back to the 80s in any permanent sense, but we can revisit and "take a tour." We can reminisce through the media that has survived. _It belongs in a museum._ Not as some dusty relic, forgotten and ignored, but as a monument to the things people loved.
I watched that awful part with the "Alien Skulls" and it killed my love for the Indy Franchise. Why should i watch a even more worse movie or care for a director who is failing his job?
Guy has a lot of balls saying "things come to an end" about an IP where the third movie ended with our hero *literally riding off into the sunset*
Here here old boy, well said sir.
Even Ford and Spileberg were tired of it at that point and wanted to do different things a bit. It is the perfect ending
Nah ... It's the Ego of this guy implying that he is more deserving of sending off
I'm not the biggest fan of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (I'm still of the opinion there are three Indy movies), but I won't lie, there is something about seeing Indy getting married and settling down as a family man with a wife and son I do like. I still prefer the original ending of him and his dad riding off together into the sunset, but it's overall a nice enough epilogue for the character. Too bad even this one decent element had to be ruined by Kathy and Disney.
@death-king1834 KOTCS is bad and he was too old then to play him. This last one was a joke and I skipped it. I agree with at least he sort of got an ending, even if he'd already got the perfect one
My grandpa was happily married with grandchildren while still being very physically active in his 80s. Has Mangold never met a single happy senior citizen? Being old doesn't mean life is trash
Last Crusade dealt with Sean Connery's age without humiliating him.
Spielberg even got him to not wear a toupee which shocked a lot of people at the time who didn't know he was bald.
Remember when it turns out they both slept with the same women! Talk about respecting your elders!
👏👏👏👏
@@archstanton9073I call bullshit, that’s implying that he was bald in the rock, no way.
Best argument
1:00 Not making the movie. That was what would have made fans happy.
Say it with me, "Fans don't owe you our money!"
Especially if it's some kind of Bullshit.
Because these narcissists refuse to learn. You give the fans what they want. You don't make what YOU want and demand the fans like it. Nobody wanted to see old depressed Indy take a back seat to an insufferable girl boss. You could have easily made this a father/son bonding film by bringing Short Round back. But no, the message was more important.
@@46sn29Idk I think artists (im using that term very loosely here) are entitled to make things for themselves that they like, BUT that also means they can’t complain when everyone else hates it, because they made it for themselves. You can’t have it both ways, either it’s for you or it’s for the fans, just be clear who it’s for, and realize that our job as your fans isn’t to suck you off for doing your job, ESPECIALLY if it isn’t even for us.
BOOM!!!
*their
None of the fans cared whether the director really loved the ACTOR Harrison Ford, as he says he did. What we cared was that he denigrated and degraded the CHARACTER Indiana Jones.
Who knew that Indiana Jones fans didn’t want to see a movie where he was emasculated and upstaged by a girl-boss?
An ugly girl boss too, couldn't even give us a pretty woman to root for.
I think alot of people didnt want a movie that has a 80 year old him
@@Bonesawisready926, look at this unsympathetic girl boss a little bit clother! Those long arms, big hands, massive jawline, big feet!
I'd say more seeing them try to pretend an 80 year old man can still bring the same energy he did at the prime of the series MAY have been a bit....misjudged, I don't know.
Plus half the movie was atrocious video game cut scene level CGI judging by the trailer.
It’s pretty simple. The fans are YOUR CUSTOMERS. Make whatever you want, but if you don’t give them what they want, they’ll spend their money elsewhere.
I'm honored to know that I helped destroy this nightmare.
I too endeavoured to not watch this movie at every opportunity
It was super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Evil prevails when hard earned cash funds it... and encourages them to do it again
@krissteel4074 don't dilute the word 'evil', lad
@@archmage_of_the_aether yeah in comparison to a lot of stuff its more of a 'swindling' people for cash at this point. Film makers are risking being put in the same block of undesirables as phone scammers
Kennedy and Disney were filling quotas not theatre seats.
Kennedy and Modern Disney know no bounds when it comes to money and greed LOL😂😂😂😂😂
We had nothing wrong with Harrison Ford being old. We had a problem with Harrison Ford being MADE FUN OF, because he was old, and being pushed aside by some girl none of us had ever heard of, and mocked by her, through the whole movie. If they wanted to do a sidekick, they should have brought back Short Round. Ke Huy Quan would have jumped at the chance to come back. Did you see him at the Oscars? He's almost 50, but when he ran on stage and hugged Harrison Ford, he was 10 years old again. But no, Kathleen had to shove her "girl power" bullshit in all of our faces, and ruin yet another lucrative IP. Indiana Jones is THREE movies long. Period.
Lets not forget how they brought back John Rhys Davies just for Indi to tell him to f* off and reject one last adventure. That was basicaly telling us fans they know we want that, and mocking us for wanting it.
I thought the fourth movie was amusing, and you can see that actors were having a good time making it.
Preach brother
Thank you! This is exactly it right here. All they needed was to bring back short round and have an awesome adventure with just him and Indy, she no girl power bullshit along the way. It would’ve been so much better!
Tbh, it did stretch credulity pretty hard to watch an 80 year old man defeating hoards of young men in a fist fight. I guess I can forgive that for the sake of one last Harrison Ford Indie movie, but I only made if halfway through when I got bored to death of 80% of the movie being nothing but first fights while driving really fast.
It's like we have a new generation of Hollywood writers who have lost a basic understanding: excitement is only exciting when given in controlled doses. It's not exciting to inject the most extreme excitement non-stop for hours.
The budget for Indy 5 could've paid for Raiders, Doom, and Ark, 3 times over. Weird that pouring money on a project seems to make it fail harder.
@thePsiMatrix and where does this money go exactly?
Clearly not to the special effects department! Lol.
They chose PWB over the fans! They can blame us all they want! We are done seeing our favorite characters shoved into the dirt and pissed on for The Message!
PWB?
@ Phoebe Waller Bridge
@@Astroman10
Pewb works quite well as a shorthand for her, actually.
Oh no I take full responsibility. I haven't even seen this movie and still trashed it on principle
The whole movie, no joke, I thought she was trans.
The best thing to come out of DOD was that premiere in which Spielberg honoured the “glue” that held the franchise together, and intentionally left KK out, in which she visibly looked completely peeved as her husband quickly ushered her off stage? Brilliant troll by Speilberg!!! 😂
That was magnificent. And well deserved 👏
The blindingly obvious thing to do would have been to re-unite Indy with Short Round from Temple of Doom - the actor is still working in the business, and you'd have had instant chemistry and nostalgia pull: unlike with Phoebe Waller Bridge who seems to have been put into the movie just to annoy the fan base and humiliate the lead character.
Yes this. His first appearance on screen in years was everything everywhere all at once and it was an incredible performance
Wish I could give you two thumbs up. Had not thought of this take
Not to mention they also had given Indy a son in the previous movie. They could have had the son get mixed up in some shady business in Asia and go missing (he’s on the hunt for some artifact). Indy comes out of retirement to find him and enlists short round’s help. Let the young guys do all the action.
@@JRRob3wn yes and also have some tension between Mutt and Short Round once they catch up with Mutt. A kind of awkward brothers thing.
@ Yep. It’s not rocket science. Same with the Disney SW sequels. 5 fans sitting around drinking beers could have come up with ideas far more interesting than the utter trash that they made. All of Hollywood needs to be purged, they are nothing but a bunch of talentless hacks.
We promise not to be fans any longer . Things coming to an end shocks no one past about 25. We all lose things and people. Friends fall away. Older family members die, We graduate grade and high school... we end our childhoods, pets die. What I don't like, and I'm a 70+ fan, was I saw the trailers and they didn't respect Indiana Jones. He was a great hero and needed a dignified last movie. He needed to be a hero, one last time before he retired. They treated him like garbage to be done with, a broken-hearted old man with very little to show for all his glorious youthful adventures. It was EVIL. I saw the trailers, listened to the commentators and walked away without ever seeing the movie.
Director: "I failed at this thing I did, I blame the "fans"."
CEO: "I failed this quarter on reaching our earning projections, I blame the investors."
Carpenter: "I failed to make a table that stands straight, I blame the floor."
Chef: "I failed to make a meal and it tasted like DS, I blame the customer."
etc. etc.
Tbf if I make a table that's perfectly square and plumb, with the legs perfect flat such that the top is perfectly level, and then I put it in the customer's house and it's suddenly incredibly wonky, it's entirely fair to blame the floor. Also tbf, the carpenter actually WOULD be the person at fault, as carpenters are construction workers (they frame houses, do drywall, flooring, cabinets etc) while a woodworker/joiner would have built the furniture.
A better analogy would be a carpenter framing a house with half the necessary studs, no rafters, no joists etc and blaming the mill where he bought the lumber when the entire thing collapses.
@@wyssmaster lol. Fair enough! 😄
rat industry made around rats
To be fair, the carpenter is probably right about the floor.
This was learned from Kathleen Kennedy: Crapppy project? Blame the fans.
Really Annoyed that Mangold decided to blame the fans rather than the movie just being plain bad. What makes me really upset the most was him saying we couldn't accept Harrison getting old, when the best part of the film was the opening scene on the train. Ive really liked several of his films, and its really frustrating to see that.
Guide to Lucas Film under Disney
Step 1: take a beloved franchise
Step 2: disrespect any existing characters or established lore whilst introducing an annoying Mary Sue girl boss as the new main character
Step 3: film bombs
Step 4: blame the fans
Repeat on gulp shitto: a star wars story and expect different results for some reason.
Step 5: Return to step 1.
My way of dealing with this is ,
1, see film is made by Disney.
2, refuse to watch it.
And I think they will run out of things to ruin before they even consider it is them making them bomb.
The first three Indy movies are classics.
Can people stop giving Phoebe Waller-bridge jobs please?
If I see anything with her or Awkwafina in it it's an instant nope from me.
The power of one
The power of two
The power of manyyyyy
@@Durzo1259 Because the chance of a project being shit goes up immensely if she is present.
Legit 💯,she's the Sweet Baby Inc. of the film world. 🤨👍
Weird that Fleabag was actually good, and everything after that disappointing.
James Mangold made Logan…no one had an issue with Wolverine being old or X-23 being introduced as his legacy. Pheobe Waller-Bridge just rubbed Indy’s face in all the shit that this film cruelly lumped on him like a dog begging for death.
Studio releases crappy product. Said product loses money. Creatives blame fans for failure. Fans abandon the IP. Studio announces more crappy products. Repeat cycle.
What fans are left moved to the video game if they have an XBOX. Interestingly enough, it may actually be good.
@@SamtheBravesFan It's on PC too. And it's a lot of fun.
@@SamtheBravesFanIndiana jones and the great circle is so fun! Been having a blast with it
The definition of insanity
@@SamtheBravesFan NGL it looks really good too... I might give it a spin.
It’s actually crazy how little impact Indy 5 had on public discourse. Aside from film review channels and culture war commentators I don’t think I had a single conversation about it IRL.
🤔Yet fans back in the day had no trouble seeing an 'old' Sean Connery in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
Epic movie :D
Plus Logan, which Mangold directed, so he should know better.
Funnily enough Sean Connery wasn’t that much older than Harrison Ford. But yeah, the way he played Henry Jones was spot on. What he lacked for big stunts or action he made up for with his intelligence and charisma. The “I’ve done it all before” factor.
Which is exactly the role they should have had Indy play in this movie. His son, disappeared in after returning from Vietnam and Indy has to come out of retirement to bail him out of trouble (or some such variation of this theme). Indy uses his wits instead of his brawn, once he and his son are reunited the son takes all the action scenes. Literally every single fan would have been fine with old man Indy if the movie had been good and didn’t have a girl boss in it.
Yes even knowing the 2 Actors were only like 7 years apart it was still excellent.
This is the ultimate issue with Hollywood ...they absolutely will not accept any responsibility for their failures.
He says I'm partly to blame for helping wreck this movie?!
**sniff**
That's the nicest thing that anyone's ever said to me.
The bottom line is that Last Crusade was a perfect send-off for Indy so *anything* that came after was going to have a hard time overcoming the lack of momentum; Indy’s story was done. As a character, there was no more story to tell. Handing off to some other character was the only way to keep the franchise going, but it would have to be a character that fans of Indy would embrace. Crystal Skull fumbled that catastrophically.
I feel there is a worthwhile comparison to be drawn with another franchise: Star Trek
The Undiscovered Country gave the original crew a perfect send-off; second star on the right and straight on ‘til morning, and the cast signatures in the credits… about as final a finality as was possible.
Then we got Generations. Whatever you think of that film as a whole and whatever the actual reasons for the lack of original cast characters in that story, the result was a token, but significant, presence of characters, necessary to pass the baton to the new (Next Gen) crew. And to justify their presence (rightly or wrongly) the story weaves in a literal ending for the figurehead original crew member as well as the vessel that literally brought the new crew into play, providing a clearly delineated but narratively authentic transition from new to old.
That the Next Gen films that followed were pale shades of the Original Crew adventures is unfortunate. I believe that was largely due to the decision to retain the entire ensemble cast of the next gen crew. That ensemble is helpful for a TV show to have adventures for different characters over a season’s worth of stories, but creates a real problem in a movie where you need a tight story following a smaller number of characters. To that extent, Generations was a missed opportunity to dispose of some of the weaker, less interesting next gen main cast. I have some picks but won’t list them here to avoid creating arguments about which crew would have been the better choices to continue the story, though I think it’s fairly obvious…. :)
Generations, for me, is the most Trek-like next gen story. First Contact was a misfire attempt at an action film (lots to recommend but suffering some fatal flaws), Insurrection was a misfire attempt to find a Next Gen vibe in a movie. Nemesis… I need to watch again, but the fact that - as far as - I can recall I’ve only ever watched it once says something in itself.
Dragging this back to Indy….
After Last Crusade, Crystal Skull should have featured Indy in a much smaller role with a new character taking up the role of franchise lead. This was made more difficult by the lack of an established character to hand over to, so the story had to work overtime to achieve that. But by giving so much time to Indy himself, the story wrote itself into an impossible situation and failed to achieve a hand-over in any sense. Which left Dial of Destiny to clumsily attempt to fabricate another ending for a character that had already had the perfect ending.
It could have worked in the hands of a particularly talented writer with a genuine love for the character, but the stars didn’t align so what we got was a cash-grab that thankfully failed.
(the saddest part being that given the machinations of Hollywood Accounting, even as a financial disaster I am sure that Dial of Destiny was turned into a “success” from a bean counting perspective by creating tangible losses that could be offset against tax liabilities incurred by other, more successful productions)
I accept full responsibility for not going to see the movie. It is my fault. I will be the reason many more movies flop.
Thank you for your service.
Me too.
Same here. They seem to think we have some sort of responsibility towards them. we don't. What is ridiculous is they say these movies are for "modern audiences" but also say they think we fans owe them our attendance... they didn't make the movie for us, they made for others, we noticed and didn't spend our money.
Wicked person, just wicked.
Have you tried getting 20+ brand new vaccinations? I hear it can help.
Random Film Talk! So happy to see him here. Well, not 'see' but you know what I mean. I died laughing during his Rings of Power recaps. 😂 AND Echo Chamberlain?! Another favorite channel, I don't miss an upload! 👌
Fans are responsible for something succeeding and something flopping. He cannot take the one without the other.
Democrat elitists in Hollywood prefer everyone else accept their role as slaves. You are to work hard and applaud anything the elite do or say.
Now that you mention it, they never thank us when something does well.
"Am I so out of touch? No, it's the fans who are wrong."
How they brought back John Rhys Davies just for Indi to tell him to f* off and reject one last adventure. That was basicaly telling us fans they know we want that, and mocking us for wanting it.
In the diarrhea of dysentery we had a problem with the bad guys flying their planes with guns so low that they were getting skewered by harpoons.
That part was so infuriating. If they needed to go back through the vortex, why did they fly so low to the ground?
Girlbossing is just bullying boys by media.
Pass it on.
While embarrassing genuinely smart women.
James Mangold (who i think is great director) responded to my tweet years ago denying mutliple things about Indy 5 that all ended up being true. This guy vanity searched his name during reshoots and was so thin skinned he had to respond to me and essentially called John Williams a liar 😂
Happy to repay their contempt with my indifference.
"Do better! ...By which I mean give me money."
"No."
"...Well we think you're nasty istophobes!"
"Don't care."
"You keep this up and we'll make a hackneyed parody of you in our next terrible film!"
"Won't see it. Doesn't matter."
"You're a bully!"
"You represent a studio worth over 8 figures. I am a random guy in a home office on a PC."
"STOP IT!!! We'll tell on you! T.T"
@@ephraimwinslowdon’t forget the reeeeeeeee reeeeeeee reeeeeeeeee we’re canceling you because your toxic and a ista phobe.
Pithy *AND* succinct. Nicely done.
I just watch some TH-cam videos like that, but I don't watch the bad movies.
I finally watched that last Indy movie and it was like watching a modern day CGI video game on autopilot. The action just didn't feel real at all. And I didn't give two cents about any of the characters, including Indy and Marion, despite having been a fan of Indy in the first three films.
Mangold made "3:10 to Yuma" and "Ford v Ferrari". He should be able to recognise the huge, gaping, bottomless chasm between these movies and Not-Indy 5.
The problem is he wasn’t involved in the writing of those stories
310 to yuma was a masterpiece
Sorry, IS!!
Hard to believe the same man made these bangers
He also made Logan and Walk the Line. He was, in my opinion, the only hope that Indy 5 would be at least decent, despite the Disney component.
You'll notice, hopefully, that the director of Indy 5 did not mention Feables Character? I haven't read the article, and I am curious to know if he acknowledged the fan's reactions to HER supplanting Indiana Jones? THAT was the BIGGEST reason that the fans disliked the director's view on an "old, aged" Indy Jones.
What have I done this time?
😂😂😂😂 don’t worry they’ll let you know.
What's in your interest, not theirs. You bad man.
Had taste.
I'm white. Male. Straight. Which means I've done everything wrong since birth, but this has to happen so humanity can become enlightened and more inclusive, or something
Lmao
Mangold, you picked up the Holy Grail of Indiana Jones only to find it was a poison chalice. You have to live with that.
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was already beating a dead horse. Dial of Destiny came back to sweep up the bone dust.
The great circle is the canon fourth movie as far as I'm concerned. Those two disasters don't exist to me.
I've seen the Crystal Skull and thought it was a poor movie. I doubt that I will ever watch The Dial of Destiny.
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was a masterpiece compared to this trash
Crystal Skull was a masterpiece compared to Dial of Destiny
@@grahamt19781 Exactly
Someone in the studio must have questioned PWB punching old man Indie, so the answer must have been ‘nah it’ll be funny and fine’. Except it wasn’t and just shows how hypocritically messed up these people are.
Hitler blames WW2 loss on "hateful, meddling Allies", Film at 11.
What channel is that on, I'd like to see it!
Don't compare him to these awful people
He'd gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling Allies! Darn kids always freeing things...
Funny that you mention that. That whole thing wasn't quite as black and white as official history would like you to believe.
What killed Indiana Jones was the one where he was searching for glass heads that were aliens and then UFOs showed up and stuff. It was pretty stupid. Maybe it was also the one where he survived a nuclear bomb by jumping into a fridge at just the right moment. I feel like all that garbage featured some dumb warehouse scene because "compelling" compared to Ark of the Covenant face melting and ball traps and all that other popular stuff from the originals.
Went to _her_ twitter page the last time _she_ threw a sissy-fit. The comments were mostly from the snobbish of the snobs agreeing with _her_ . That industry needs to be torn down. Nothing of value will be lost.
I never thought I'd fall asleep watching an Indiana Jones movie, but somehow they did it.
Harrison Ford doesn't even care about Indy anymore but I, the fan, am supposed to?
Very good point
He seemed to care at the video game awards.
He really is just a miserable bastard.
@@archstanton9073tbf he probably got paid a bunch to show up
Why do people think he _ever_ cared? Ford never "cared" about Han Solo either. The man is a working actor and it's silly to think he has to be a "fan" at the same time. Anyone paying attention would understand that his roles are a paycheck, not a fetish. He's made this very plain in innumerable interviews for decades....
I'm glad I never watched Dial Of Destiny. I'm happy pretending Last Crusade was the last Indiana Jones movie and The Great Circle video game is a prequel filling in gaps from before.
And in other news: The sky is still blue, the ocean is still wet, and the sun rose this morning (everywhere except Scotland, naturally.)
Aye
Water isnt wet. Water makes things wet
@@MusicalBoarder it is wet since it made other things wet it couldnt make other things wet if it wasnt wet. water is wet
@@josipmarasovic2436that’s like saying that since fire burns things, fire itself is burnt.
@PabloTheThug fire and water are two diffrent things same doesent apply to water and fire
"That's your fault if our movie flopped !"
Me : "Ho, thanks for the compliment."
They'll take all the praise for a project succeeding but none of the blame for it failing. And these people wonder why the audience just finds it amusing to watch their industry fall apart now? Same goes for AAA gaming too.
Victory has many fathers, defeat is an orphan.
"Managementnis never wrong"
MachineGames: Makes a game that shows a lot of love and care for the franchise.
Indy5 Director: Clearly doesn't like the franchise and blames fans.
From the moment it was announced, the reaction was "why?" They ignored that and continued with the project. Their actions, their results.
Yes. Ford was too old and the fourth film was a bad idea and not well received and that should have told them to not try again. Spielberg and Lucas accepted that and worked away as they could not make it work or come up with anything good. And that was it. Till Lucas sold Lucasfilm to Disney and they put Krapthleeen Krapperdy in charge. Its not Mangolds fault. Its KKs. She green lit this, she wanted it made, she put PWB in to it, the whole thing was her project, ideas and all. Including her original ending of PWB taking over by writing Indy out of everything by killing him so he never happened! Mangold came in to direct later in the day and he was just the director that they managed to talk into it and keep him around to make and finish the thing. I have way less respect for him now though, because of this, because if he had half a brain, or was an Indy fan he would have told them to shove it, refused to make it and he would have known it was a bad idea and disaster in the making.
Because Kennedy wanted to prove she could make a better Indiana Jones movie, with a female lead, than Lucas and Spielberg could ever manage.
@@Bailonus Yes that is exactly why made Dial of Disaster. Didnt work out very well for her though did it? The worst Indiana Jones film of them all, and a total flop millions in the red. The worst Star Wars films of all time, the worst Star Wars series of all time, the worst Willow series / sequel etc of all time. All flops and fails and costing millions and losing even more. And yet she is still in charge...
Didnt Mangold attack a podcast crew bc he stated exactly why the movie would fail years before its release? That podcast was right in the end
@@josay3394 Yes he did. A tweet was put up by a movie buff that said something along the lines of - Given the Ford is nearly 80, Lucas and Spielberg are not involved and Kathleen Kennedy is in charge, does anyone think dial of Destiny will be any good?
And Mangold etc went mental and started trying to shoot all the points made, down. And all the poster was talking about was Kathleen had a bad track record by then with Star Wars, and there were reshoots galore already going on for Indy. Turns out he was bang on the money. But all he was doing was saying in a very public place, what everyone online, and Indy fans were thinking. Ford was too old in Crystal Skull, it was the weakest film and it should have been left alone after Last Crusade. To come back and have another go even more years later was just stupid. It was not altogether Mangolds fault, he was just doing his job, and doing what Kathleen told him to do. If it was not him, she would have found someone else. And as he was getting paid, he had to defend the film and his work and stay onside with KK and Lucasfilm. The sensible thing for him to do though, would have been to stay totally silent. Then just promote the film when the time came in as positive way as possible. It would not help the film as it was terrible, but it would have helped his public image with fans and movie goers alike....
Mangold didn't just fail as a director; he failed as a human being when he singled out and bullied "lying" fans while (we later discovered) Mangold was the one without basic integrity..
Moviegoers weren’t interested in a movie sundowning Indiana Jones with an obnoxious British woman.
It's sad to see franchises stray from the original concept and go downhill, it happens again and again. I think of series like 'Sliders', which was supposed to be about travelling to alternate histories, but after the first 2 seasons it turned into a rip-off of Star Trek and anything else vaguely popular, replaced most of the cast and became a train wreck.
I choose not to acknowledge the existence of crystal skull and DoD. If people these days can reject basic biology then I shouldn’t have to accept shitty movies and TV that destroy legacy and lore. That includes Indiana Jones, rings of power, new Star Wars and Star Trek, and pretty much whatever else I choose.
You are right to do so.
Fans learning this is the gift this hellish era. In 2001 when Ed Brubaker ruined Catwoman, you heard actual conversations like "I don't like it either but this is how it is now and we just have to accept it."
I tried to tell them _No, you bloody well don't. It's your money, your time, AND YOUR IMAGINATION._ You do not have to let some opportunistic hack take it from you.
Today, there is no franchise where fans have not had to learn that. It's your money and your time and your heroes. They have no power you do not give them. Say no.
Crystal skull is a masterpiece compared to dial of destiny
We are the TERFs of the movie going world.
"I wanted the audience to love Harrison regardless of his being 80 years old".
...Maybe should have made the movie about HIM, then.
I was obligated to see Dial of Disappointment at my nephews birthday party. My ticket was already paid for, and I still felt ripped off. I was robbed of 3 hours of time.
I think the heart of the problem is that no one on this film understands the character of Indy. Indy is one of those characters that doesn't go thru character arcs...he never changes as a person. And some characters are meant to be that way.
He learns new things, wins and loses allies, faces set backs, even has moments of self-doubt...but he always rallies himself to go back to who he always remains at his core. (Not a shocker when you consider he's an homage to heroes of movie serials. Serialized stories tend to avoid character changes, so audiences can drop in for the most recent adventure without worrying feeling they are seeing a new person because events in an episode they missed.) This is all key to why people like Indy...he's the rare character who audiences do *not* want to change and grow.
Had they stayed true to that...they could have showed him old, and even showed him passing the torch, and fans would have been fine with it. It would not have been seen as great...but it could have been an acceptable (albeit unnecessary) entry in the Indiana Jones mythos.
We didn't reject Indie because he was old, we rejected him becoming an alcoholic bum, and we rejected his girl boss granddaughter who was extremely unlikable
No, he’s right, we are yelling BOO-URNS
He's not wrong. Fans of Indiana Jones didn't pay to see this abomination so it flopped because non-fans can't make up the losses.
“Things come to an end” apparently not the Indiana Jones franchise
As a fan I couldn't accept that things come to an end, that's why I didn't bother seeing the 2024 movie in a franchise that had a proper ending in 1989.
Game is so fun
Wish it was 3rd person
lol
The sad part is they had the bones of a good story. Keep the overall plot points the same. Drop the dumb shit. Remember that Indy doesn’t teach at the local Junior College. He teaches at a university. He’s still respected. He’s still a good teacher. Facilitate a conversation that talks about how each year there are less and less students taking an interest in archeology and the past. Indy and Marion are still together, still fiery, but very much in love. If they don’t want to recast Mutt, fine. But instead of being dead, he’s off doing something. He loved mechanics. What if he’s become a autoshop teacher at a vocational college. It’s not as prestigious as Indy would have wanted, but it’s respectable because he’s teaching. And more importantly, he’s doing what he loves. Mention that Mutt is divorced, but Indy and Marion have grandkids.
Keep Voller’s motivations the same. His goal is still to use the Antikythera to go back and change the past in the same way. Remove his connection to the CIA. He got into the US because of scientific contributions after the war. Fine. But he’s dropped off the radar, changed his name. The government is looking for him, there’s our CIA or FBI connection to the plot. Indy has met Voller already, so at some point, he’ll recognize him and start to deduce what’s really in play.
Keep Helena as the potential protégé, but write her as an actual character with an actual arch. Cast someone believable in the role. Have her find him in the classroom like before. His lesson on the importance of the past. He say something along the lines of his “X” marks the spot line harkening back to the OT. Also have him say something along the lines of the importance of historical integrity. “The present isn’t meant to shape our past. Our past is meant to shape our future.” This shows Indy’s reverence for the past, and serves as a critique our current-day trends to reshape history in the name of DEI.
As the adventure unfolds and globetrotting begins, we see that Helena is good, promising even, but not perfect. There are things she can learn from Indy. It’s apparent that she has the thirst for adventure, but doesn’t really have the reverence and respect for what’s at stake. Indy is the opposite, his thirst for adventure isn’t what it used to be. It becomes more and more apparent that he can’t keep up like he used to, and he knows it. Have him Danny Glover it as he becomes more and more weary. “I’m getting too old for this shit,” but in Indy-speak. His goal isn’t the adventure, it’s the preservation of History.
The story culminates in the penultimate stage of the original movie, Archimedes Tomb. Preferably hidden somewhere a little more believable. Somewhere not regularly visited by tourists.
Voller still gets both halves of the Dial. He unites them. Air and dust begin to shift and swirl. It’s clear something is happening. Special effects ensue. But it goes nowhere. Indy and co manage to stop him. Indy shoots Voller is the chest, and Helena catches the Antikythera as it falls from Vollers’ hand, separating it at the last moment. Triumph!
Voller lies there defeated and dying. He says something to Helena who is beside him holding the two halves of the Dial. “You saw it… It was working…” in a weak somewhat surprised tone. Revealing that he never really believe it was real. He was risking everything on the mere possibility of being able to rewrite the past. He turns his attention to Indy. “I could have done it, Dr. Jones. I could have changed History…" He dies.
In the end, an aged world-weary Indy and his youthful protégé have a moment regard the dead antagonist. “Do you really think it would have worked?” she asks, holding the two halves of the Antikythera. “Time travel?”
Here we repurpose Indy’s line about the things he’s seen in his adventures, and lead into: “It doesn’t matter whether or not it would have worked. History has never been ours to change. We’re meant to study it. Learn what worked and what didn’t. What led to greatness…” gesturing around at the place in which they find themselves. “What led to atrocity…” gesturing to the dead nazi.
Now it’s the protégés turn to pick up the thread. Harkening back to what Indy had said at the beginning of the movie in the classroom, Helena quotes: “Our present doesn’t shape our past. Our past shapes our future.” She’s not the same character she was at the beginning. She’s learned the importance of what Indy’s adventures really was. She removes a few small pieces of the inner workings of the Dial and tosses them in opposite dusty corners of the tomb, then puts the Antikythera back together. It lies inert. No more threat to the past and now safe for a museum.
“So, what’s next?” Helena asks as the pair exit the scene, she with youthful vigor and Indy clearly feeling his age.
“The future’s yours, kid. I’m going home and staying in the past…”
Helena scoffs and immediately begins throwing out suggestions for their next adventure, with Indy putting up a weary hand to try and curb her as the scene fades to black. Fin. Torch passed. (Not that it ever need to be...)
There were five Indy films? I seem to recall only three
Right? Raiders, Crusade, and Skull.
@@Cyraxior nice try, but no.
To give Kingdom SOME credit.. It was nowhere near as good as the trilogy, but it is better in every way than Dial of Destiny.
There are so many rumors about what happened in the production of "Dial" that it's difficult to know what's real and what is speculation. What is undeniably true is that it's a movie that profoundly did not need to be made. Yes, the star of your action-heavy franchise is in his 80s; did it occur to anyone that that might demand considered handling beyond slapping on CG?
“I’m I so out of touch? No, it’s the fans that are wrong”. - Modern Disney
Thank you for making a video on this. His quotes bothered me, too.
Raiders: I was on the edge of my seat.
Temple of Doom: I was biting my nails.
Last Crusade: I cheered throughout. Perfect ending.
*************************
Crystal Skull: I laughed at how bad it was.
Dial of Destiny: I fell asleep halfway through, and didn't care.
💯
i fast forwarded through stuff
I watched halfway through Indie 5 and what made me unable to finish it was that the whole god damned movie was nothing but people fighting while driving really fast. Every moment of dialogue felt like a brief rest before returning to the main plot: fist fights while driving fast.
It's like Hollywood is run by 10 year olds now. "You know what makes a movie great? Excitement! The more excitement, the better the movie!" They've completely lost the ability to understand that excitement isn't exciting if it's ALL THE TIME.
Ford's age and energy in the trailers certainly weren't enticing. But I could name about a hundred other things, that made me avoid this movie, and none of them had anything to do with Harrison Ford.
and it takes a video game like The Great Circle to show Mangold what a proper Indiana Jones story is like.
Man did that game leave a massive smile on my face. The confession scene was a thing of beauty lmao
@@WH250398 yes! I was thinking the same when he punched that guy out in the confession both. That's Indy!
Indy 5 is got to be one of the most disrespectful movies ever made, right up there with movies like Nightmare on elm street (remake) or Joker 2.
My thoughts:
- When a movie (or series) flops, it's not because of the fans, it's because the creators failed to turn people into fans.
- Old actors are not a problem. It's the way age is addressed and the way these characters are treated that is a problem. Take Star Trek VI, for example, in which the characters are treated respectfully and age is not only addressed, but also made a subject of discussion.
The worst part was Phoebe punching him in the face and removing the choice of how he wanted to die in the time era he dreamed of… but NOPE 👊🏻
Why aren’t they screaming about Indianas ‘agency’ being stolen away. In the Acolyte they screamed like banshees how Sol took away the girls agency because he ‘accepted his death’ “she couldn’t even take it from him the way she wanted to💁♀️” they come up with these weird psychotic, narcissistic plots and reasonings and it’s just so azzbackwards
I didn't see this Indy movie, but what you describe reminded me of the horrible Star Wars moment when Rose took away Finns sacrifice, a moment that took away Finn doing something unexpected, badass, and would have given the character at least some gravitas.
Man doesn't get to choose if woman dislikes his decision
Didn't she just suddenly stab Seoul and interrupt him while he was trying to tell her what happened? Are you thinking of Master Yes who drank the poison?
There's a reason she says "Me too" before slugging him out cold
The word is ass you are an adult
Millennial woman here who grew up with Raiders of the Lost Ark as an iconic film. I had zero desire to see The Dial of Destiny as well.
I'm still stunned that Hollywood still won't alter it's ridiculous model for getting people to see their bad entries of franchises after the past few years...
Step 1: Insult and slander your audience for being too stupid, racist, bigoted, homophobic, sexist, etc. for not loving your take on a franchise.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!
There's many issues of Dial ... Phoebe Waller Bridge, Script issues, James Mangold is a good direct , but he's no Spielberg ...Harrison Ford gave a very good performance which is sad, because the movie itself didn't do him justice. Plus being under the Disney umbrella doesn't help either. Phoebe Waller Bridge isn't a bad actress her character is written so annoyingly , but it's ironic she's one of the main reasons that Dial failed and she's also hugely responsible for ruining James Bond's last outing as a screenplay writer .
It ended at the end of kingdom Crystal skull and had the perfect ending with Indy and Marion getting married
Never heard of that movie. Is it a fan film?
It ended with The Last Crusade
@@drby0788 literally riding off into the sunset
Crystal Skull? Is that a fanfic?
Indy is my hero. To the point where I actively avoid any news about Harrison Ford just to avoid hearing something that might affect how I see him. Hearing the first ending involved completely erasing Indy for what's her face made me nauseous. Very glad I haven't seen this mess
I always say this with Indy 5: they had a blueprint for what to do with him from Sean Connery's role in Indy 3. It was pure lunacy to not just take that as inspiration.
Sean Connery's Dr. Jones is STILL winning at life, has something to say and teach, and is respected and fully developed, while still being able to learn something. In other words, a real character that is still sympathetic and admirable. Nope, they wanted to subsume a character to prop up another, shallower one. Hard pass...
I take full responsibility for Indy 5's failure.
I love how James acts like Disney had a gun to his head and forced him to make this movie…
“You don’t understand! He has to be an old, sad failure! What was I gonna do, NOT make another cash-grab installment???”
They missed their window in the 90s to do another one. We got the cameo in YIJA in 1993. Honestly, swap the DoD plot with Crystal Skull, along with Mads Mikkelson as the bad guy, and have Cate Blanchett as Helena, you would've had a better movie in 2008. Truth is, Ford is too old to play Indy in DoD. And it's OK to admit it.
The Mummy {1999) could've been a worthy Indy movie. Supernatural mummies fit more into his universe than aliens and time travel.
From Indiana Jones, to Joe Biden, to Mike Tyson, I think we can now definitively say that age is not just a number.
Everyone loses a step when they get older. More than one if they make it to their 70's and 80's. There's no shame in it.
It never was. People just watch too much fiction.
Exactly, you get old. I am sick of hearing this from people at each birthday I have. I am getting older. I can no longer run flat out, I get tired earlier in the evening. Walking is harder, I get aches and squeaks and clicks in my joints from time to time. And I not "old" its just that I am not young anymore. And that stupid saying age is just a number etc is utter bullsheert. Age is age. We get old. And you feel it eventually. Its inevitable and a fact of life. Trying to pretend you are 18 when you are 50 or 60 something is just embarrassing.
What I don’t understand is if you’re reading the script and realise that they are blatantly destroying your character why would you agree to this assasination? These actors don’t need the money. Ford, Hamil etc.
In my mind there are no movies after the last crusade.
But there is a new game which is good.
The Uncharted game series was more Indiana jones then these new films were
So many people in the film industry are out of touch with the fan bases nowadays and they forget that the fans are the make or break for them. Then when it fails they double down with bs excuses.
They are not out of touch with the fan bases. They are out of touch with normal humans.
I didn't think 'Crystal Skull' was that bad. It at least had some nice moments, eg. the father-and-son stuff, the delving into old tombs and temples, the up-beat ending at a wedding... I didn't think the theme of aliens was too out of keeping. 'Ancient alien' and 'other dimensions' theories tie in reasonably well with the established mythology and mystery topics. It also tied in to the 1950s Cold War era and the psychic spying and mind control experimented with by both sides. (Granted I prefer the more mystical and religious elements in the earlier films, especially the first and third.) Nothing in 'Crystal Skull' came across as mean-spirited, demoralising or insulting, though. I still haven't seen DoD, which seems to have been DoA, and from what I hear I'm probably best continuing to avoid it. I knew I didn't want to see it when I heard they killed off Mud.
It’s like they didn’t see the disaster she made of Bond in „No time to die“. There were clear signs that she’ll make a mess out of Indy too
"M, Darling!"
-Actual thing said by James Bond in that awful movie.
@@WH250398what about "look at those doors" 😂..worst Bond film ever.....in fact was it even a Bond film...not for me...
Bond was great. Not remotely similar to Indy 5. Lashana Lynch's character was hateful. Movie itself fine.
Mr. Manchild...how about not making the film in the first place!
How about the fact that every time in the movie Indy goes to someone he knows for help, she gets them killed. He has to watch all of his friends die as a result of her pursuit.
The director's comments would be the same as McDonald's blaming the failure of the Arch Deluxe on their customers. The fact is that Hollywood is going back to previous franchises to see if they can squeeze more money out of the intellectual property that they own instead of coming up with original ideas.
Crazy times we live in. Back in the day film companies were striving to find out exactly what movie goers wanted and tried to deliver something that would get people flocking to the cinema and earn them a pretty penny. Now if a film flops it's because the "bigoted" audience are all in the wrong and we should love the film? 🤣
Indy had the perfect ending in The Last Crusade. Nothing needs to follow that. It was the most logical and ideal point to hang up the hat and whip
Indiana Jones belonged to the 80s. It was a product of its time.
We can't go back to the 80s in any permanent sense, but we can revisit and "take a tour." We can reminisce through the media that has survived.
_It belongs in a museum._ Not as some dusty relic, forgotten and ignored, but as a monument to the things people loved.
I watched that awful part with the "Alien Skulls" and it killed my love for the Indy Franchise. Why should i watch a even more worse movie or care for a director who is failing his job?