Part One: Ancient Genocide and the War on Carthage | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
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Part One: Ancient Genocide and the War on Carthage | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert and Joe Kassabian discuss the prehistoric roots of genocide and then Rome's genocide of Carthage.
Original Air Date: May 31, 2022
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
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"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often fucking rhymes". Now that is wisdom.
Attributed to Mark Twain originally, but without the "fucking," at least in published form.
I love that quote so much.
Thesis: water pipe culture
Antihesis: corn culture
Synthesis: corncob pipe culture
Great podcast, but please don’t confuse the collapse of the Roman EMPIRE with the collapse of the Roman REPUBLIC. These were two very different things.
Point.
Caesar episode is inevitable 😅
I hope you get Joe Kassabian back for another episode. We need more BtB and LLBD collabs.
Sophie cracking up at the end there while Robert is describing the parallels between ancient and modern misogyny was such a great moment. I'm looking forward to part 2. Great guest, too Thank you!
This Cato guy sounds like the patron saint of right wing reactionary politics. Like how was that man real, he sounds like a modern caricature in a story set in ancient rome as a dig at contemporary politics, all that is missing is him saying how big his hands are.
Yet his great grandson, also named Cato, was the opposite in terms of modern politics. He was the one giving impassioned speeches to the senate warning about the dangers of a growing populist movement, and especially of an upstart senator named Julius Caesar. Cato warned that Caesar's willingness to embrace dirty political campaigns and even encourage violent attacks on his political rivals made him a threat to the republic, someone who would rise to absolute power and become a tyrant. Even as other senators were cozying up to Caesar to trade favors (and bribes), Cato was the prescient voice of caution who warned that this was a dangerous path to take. He was absolutely right about that.
I can rather admire Cato the Younger. But his ancestor, Cato the Elder, well... he was just an asshole. They were both strict traditionalists, but in very different ways.
@@vylbird8014Yeah read a bit about him when i tried looking the elder up. I guess he saw/heard of his grandfather and said well f that guy and tried to be the exact opposite, except for the tradition part i guess.
Both Cato the elder, and Cato the younger, seems like they were the type who were difficult to find a good seating partner to at a party.
They were both conservatives fighting change, just that one was fighting change from the outside and the other from within… also don’t act like using and taking bribes was a populist thing, EVERYONE did that, the senate was hardly some pure as hell institution corrupted by the evil Caesarians, it was a fraught institution by the time of his birth even
Ooh... I'm on a Sarcastic Productions Mythology binge here on YT and now this.
Neat.
I need to catch up on my OSP
I love Joe, bringing him together with Robert is brilliant.
What a topic to click like for. Oh well, gotta educate myself.
Yeah I think, uh, like.
We have a narrow definition of what a "Genocide" is, but wholly ignore that tribes and small nation-states predating our better-documented civilizations inevitably fought and wiped one another out.
It's just *_easier_* to do a "Genocide" or Ethnocide when it's like.
All of 400 people, like, tops.
Nope, you've failed
And if you do it really well, no-one will ever find out.
@@vylbird8014 And now nobody else will ever know and you can never take it away from me 😄
Chimpanzees have been observed doing the same.
It was also easier when it may have been a million people, but the rest of the world either doesn't know cause information travels so slowly, or they don't care or they supported it. Spare the speed of information, the other factors 1:1 are present today still.
Cato would be into NFT's (New Farmable Terraces)
wait, no. Nubile Farmboi Tushy
Destruction of Carthage was so exceptional that Roman Republic only did something like that twice, that year (they also destroyed Corinth (that's the city with those cool helmets people keep misatributing to Spartans)).
this is why I love Roman history, so much of what you hear sounds like it could have come out today.
So most linguistic scholars believe the Yamnaya to be the culture that spoke Proto-Indo-European. They would eventually become Europeans, Iranians, and some of the people's of India. Their religion was probably very similar to Hindu, especially the Hindu of the RigVeda
So, in a way, they kind of were the ancient "Aryans," but definitely not in the way Hitler & co. liked to think.
@@matthollywood8060 no, the "Aryans" were descended from them. And still around today. The name of the country is actually cognate with Aryan. It's Iran.
@@WowUrFcknHxC That was what I was getting at. Many of their descendants use cognates of Aryan to name themselves and few of them would look like the kind of people Nazis would see as their master race. There are also the Alans, who are known in modern times as the Ossetians, who have a dialect called Iron. Comparing all the languages descended from Proto-Indo-European is fascinating and sort of does the opposite of what the Nazis intended. Instead of singling out one ethnicity as a "master race" it shows how so many of us are actually connected, even if it's by descent from mass murderers.
Hannibal did war crimes in the sense that he slaughtered roman soldiers but that was the norm at the time. As he went through the roman empire from Spain to italy defeating roman armies one after the other, he kept liberating locals from their oppressors and tax collectors and many joined him to fight Rome. Rome was a 1984 style oppressive totalitarian dystopia and just kept pulling conscripts from their weakest social classes, especially from other cities and provinces in the empire in echange for nothing but citizenship and a tax cut because before the wars only the people in rome and a few nearby cities had citizenship, the rest of Italy and Europe were just occupied territory explicitly subjugated and made to pay tribute. If i remember correctly Carthage just wanted to not be harassed by Rome and while Hannibal was keeping them busy they lost interest in the war and stopped supporting it so hannibal had to slow down but the Romans were now angry as fuck and in it to the death.
Good timing to release an episode with a discussion of the definition of genocide. I see what you did there!
When the term genocide was coined not only had all of these countries also conducted genocides, but they would continue to do so from day 1 until now. Sth I've seen people also debate around that in recent times is the term "cultural genocide" not to refer to any mass killing or prevention of births or anything, but generalized violence to the prevention of the continued existence of a culture (in those debates around the term).
The critical Greek theory bit reminds me of something that happens much later where basically a politician appeals to patriotism to do some utter bullshit in court like... "THIS IS ROME! NOT GREECE! THINGS GET MESSY BUT THINGS GET DONE" which is so funny from a modern conservative standpoint.
The distinction of Rome vs. Carthage when it comes to human sacrifice is generally true. Carthagians did seem to engage in regular, religious human sacrifice. But Romans would regularly get a bunch of war prisoners and "execute" them in front to the Temple of Jupiter as part of ceremonies to celebrate their victories. Which was totally not human sacrifice. There were apparently also less euphemistic human sacrifices after Hannibal's victory in Cannae. When the Romans thought the sky was falling and that Hannibal would march against the city after that loss, there were some Romans who tried to cover their bases by engaging in human sacrifices... just in case that would help them.
The Tasting History guy got the voice actor of Porky Pig to say "Carthage must burn" in Latin, so that's neat
Roman military fervor boils down to telling the other side, "I ain't hear no bell!"
"Move 12 miles inland" we should take Carthage and push it somehwere else!
Cato sounds a lot like thomas jefferson
You know it really bothers me how much people like to talk about human sacrifice and Carthage. Because like, sure, they did engage in it... But they tend to pretend Rome DIDN'T. And like, yeah, Rome didn't tie a guy to an altar and stab him... But they forced prisonders to play out roles from myths in performances where the guy in the story died, during religious festivals, and in doing so kill him that way. And like... Sure, THEOLOGICALLY that might not be the same thing, but it's gonna feel the same to the dude getting murdered.
I actually don't know the current state of research on it, but last time I looked into the scholarship on human sacrifice in Carthage the only evidence outside of Romans being cited were mass graves with charred bones that were found - a thing which you can also find after plagues & can happen for many reasons other than religious significance. Religious significance being a meme nowadays cause it got applied to a lot of things where we simply didn't (or couldn't acknowledge) other reasons for why something is done.
The conversation on definition made me think for a minute. Genocide as something other than the ending of a people is something I'm a bit iffy about, now that I think of it.
When genocide can just be a people's culture being ended, you can make the argument that a cultural value, practice, or system of beliefs being destroyed is a genocide. Like, people in town owning small mom and pop businesses and farms, and then becoming pawns of aggressive big chains is sad and an unfortunate loss of a culture, but one thing it isn't is a genocide. And if genocide isn't specifically destroying a people, it could be mislabeled as one.
uh, yeah, the destruction of a people's culture and economy is a destruction of that people. That's what genocide, specifically cultural genocide, is.
It's what the British Empire did around the globe, because when you destroy those things a nation cannot sustain itself.
It sounds really bad when you say the guest is "specialized in genocide" :D
You will never convince me to stop advocating for a solution to the Welsh Question. They stabbed Canada in the back!
Rome is fascinating in the Republican period. Rome itself was sacked and threatened multiple times before it became a power. So it wasn't like they were always dominant. Their wara of conquest were often just Rome wanting finally get rid of old enemies that constantly threatened them. Rome just emerged as the strongest city-state in what is now Italy/Switzerland/SE France/Austria. It isn't until you get closer to the 2nd century BCE that Rome starts aggressively expanding, rather than expansion through proactive defense. Caesar conquered Gaul through sheer ambition, but that's the 50s, BCE. When Rome and Carthage first clashed, Rome was still seriously threatened by Greek powers (the Roman loss that spawned the term "Pyrrhic victory" was only 15 years earlier), and often raided by tribes from Gaul and Noricum. Rome at that point was just the "boot" from where modern Bologna is, on down, not the massive Mediterranean spanning power many people think of them as. They had only just driven the Greeks off the boot in 272, and only beaten the Samnites in 290 to become the power in central Italy. Hannibal had been an existential threat to Rome, right when Rome had finally defeated its regional enemies. It's no surprise the rhetoric about finishing off Carthage once and for all became popular in Rome.
Did you mean Cisalpine Gaul? Transalpine Gaul is in France mostly.
Please do an episode on russell brand
Excessively goofy. He is below Joe Rogan unless there is something I don't know.
@@justcommenting4981 Brand is just a run of the mill bipolar junkie lol. I know 12 dudes just like him
@@justcommenting4981Sex crime.
I'm going to guess that the historian Joe isn't a big fan of was Victor Davis Hansen.
That polish scholar might make sense to think before, em didnt the udssr either and the russian empire. i mean it and ukraine are 2 countries that have the best reasons to hate all of th sides between germany and the udssr.
Not that the us tribes isnt, em.
And the irish had art least the cultural one.
Huh?
What?
Of course sicily, its always sicily
To be fair Germans aren't Aryan. Iranians and Indians are.
To be fair, they are, because Aryan is just another label for Indo-European. As near as anyone can make sense of an esoteric race theory.