Ad orientem needs to come back! w/ Jacob Imam
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- This Clip is from an old Interview that can be found here: • 7 Reasons We LOVE The ...
Jacob and Matt talk about how Versus Populum makes the Mass feel like entertainment.
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I stumbled upon a mass in Gilbert, AZ at St Mary Magdalen parish while on vacation this Christmas. Their blend of Latin chant with vernacular, plus the altar rail, plus the priests celebrating ad orientum took my breath away. TRULY this was what the bishops intended with Sacrosanctum Concilium.
Same with St. Mary’s in Greenville, SC. The choir alone makes you tear up. I agree, this was the intent.
…and now the bishops have cracked down on this too!
I think this is the right and true mix more faithful priest and parishes should take up.
Had my first experience of this in October past and it was so beautiful. Exactly how the Novos Ordo was intended.
Sounds like an anglican ordinariate mass. My favourite mass there is
We attend an ad orientum English Mass every Sunday for the last 9 months. Beautiful and reverent. Truly blessed to live close enough to attend.
Is it in Greenville, SC? St. Mary’s?
@@elgusto5329 Holy Rosary in Indianapolis. Beautiful old parish, if you are ever in Indy I highly recommend. Fr. McCarthy is wonderful.
Amen! Let's face God with our priests.
This is absolutely right.
My father in law is a pilot. After coming to my TLM he said the biggest thing Vatican II got right was the priests facing the congregation "so you can see what they're doing". I remarked that he'd probably find it more entertaining if an airline pilot sat in the cabin facing you so you could see the controls, but the pilots job isn't to entertain the passengers, it's to get them safely to the destination.
Great analogy
Boom. Mic drop.
@@MikePasqqsaPekiMright
Omgoodness.. that is such a great analogy!
What's happening here?!
Arguing....... form over substance?
I think I am turning Muslim!
Pray only towards THE SUN DIRECTION otherwise, you can not "see God" !
😱🙄🤯💥❣️
Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there..." "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them"
We have a Priest in the area that is starting to do it the last Sunday of each month, and the daily Masses of that week!
Cardinal Sarah tried to make this happen, Pope Francis unfortunately shut him down.
Francis also strongly supports ad orientum for the Syro-malabar rite. And he's taken extraordinary steps to enforce it. I think that there is more to it than a simple disagreement between Card. Sarah and the Holy Father.
@@FrJohnBrownSJ Yeah, crazy what’s going on between the priests fighting during mass over that by the way!
@@folofus4815 It was done because of perpetual kind of protest mass. Was not supposed to happen and strict actions will be taken towards both parties.
@@FrJohnBrownSJAd orientem must be mandatory. Versus populum must be suppressed. Also, fiducia supplicans and liberation theology are extremely diabolical and must be prohibited. Period!
My parish has ad orientem, even for the NO.
I went to a Mass yesterday at St. Patrick's in Hamilton, and they had this gorgeous marble altar in the back with the tabernacle on it, and to see the Mass not being celebrated with that altar and instead with this wooden one just so the priest could face the people was a travesty. Somebody put their heart and soul into that altar to glorify God and it isn't even being used for Mass anymore.
I’ve always seen it as if you’re talking to someone you face them, you don’t face someone else when talking to the guy behind you!
Exactly. Why are we praying to God when facing away from the Real Presence and all the icons/signs that point to God and heaven?
It’s a Protestant sentiment, because they would emphasize the Holy Spirit being among the celebrant and congregation. They’re not totally wrong, it’s just not the ideal…which would be to all adore the Triune God as one, and all to Adore the True Presence as one.
It also de-emphasizes the unique role of the Priest to have him face the congregation…but ad orientum de-emphasizes the personality of the priest.
One focuses on the people in the room, the other focuses on God Who is both near and Present, yet also enthroned in Heavenly Glory.
@@MikePasqqsaPekiM It’s all those “little” things that speak louder than words, it reinforces what we believe in a silent but big and visual way.
I'm located in an area where I do have options for either a NO or TLM, though there are far more NO parishes that are nearby. If I had to choose weekly, were commute isn't an issue, I'd choose the TLM.
I'm grateful that all I've ever known is ad orientem and latin mass
"He's Moses leading us out of Eqypt." Damn, I'm gonna use that.
Oh please Lord God, Our Heavenly Father, we want to be led to YOU! 🕊️🌹🕊️🌹🕊️ AMEN
Ad orientum just makes sense to make the mass a ritual again. The priest as Christ leading us to worship God. I don’t understand at all why the priest is toward the congregation, especially after learning that you need to place a mini cross on the altar just for the priest lol. So redundant
I've had the opportunity to attend one TLM, and the single thing that struck me the hardest, and the single thing that I would bring from it to the NO, is ad orientum.
Just got back from one 20 minutes ago. Traditional Latin Mass!
With a corrupt hierarchy this is sadly wishful thinking..these men are not interested in the mass, they restricted the TLM and Ad Orientum
The Vatican has overturned every attempt by a bishop to prevent ad orientem.
“The common good that we have, is not one another. It is Christ!“🙌👍💕🙏
Ad orientem alone can already significantly reduce the frequency of liturgical abuses
Which is why they will not do it, the men in charge are not interested in reducing liturgical abuses
I've been making more of a conscious effort to intentionally face east (the compass direction) while praying since that was important for the early Christians. It signifies hope for the coming of Christ, who will come again like the rising sun.
amin, and amin
I know versus populum or ad orientem are both directed towards God. But symbolically it’s just so much richer with ad orientem. Yes symbols matter.
Amen 🙏
Archdiocese of Cincinnati cracks down on ad orientem Masses
Archbishop Dennis Schnurr is restricting ad orientem Masses during a reported uptick in traditional liturgical practices in the Archdiocese...and effectively banning the use of high altars,
People are in need of The Almighty and Christ and let go of the Church.
💯
Sacred Traditions are not ecclesial traditions. (When we mention the term 'Traditions', or 'traditions', we must be clear of what is the words of God (in oral form) and what is churches disciplines, devotions, liturgy, theological tradition born from local churches over time.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32
In the apostolic preaching. . .
76 In keeping with the Lord's command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
- orally "by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit";33
- in writing "by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing".34
. . . continued in apostolic succession
77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36
78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38
79 The Father's self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.
III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH
The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church
84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46
The Magisterium of the Church
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.
While I like the idea of everyone including the priest facing one direction as we do during the tlm, all of us facing east would be difficult in my church. Since the alter is on the west end of the church we would have to completely flip the whole floorplan.
It's not necessary to literally face the east. I believe that , because of lay of the land on which it was built, the high alter in the Ciitine chapel does not face east. The point they are trying to make is that the celebrating priest should face the alter. He should face God. I don't want to be face to face with the priest at Mass. I want to be face to face with God.
@@mikeduval1319 Correct, I realize now that ad orientem is symbolically "facing east". For some reason I pictured a literal east facing congregation to be the "true" (for lack of a better term) ad orientem. Perhaps some forethought on the construction, where applicable, of churches could tie the literal and symbolic together..
What's happening?!
Arguing....... form over substance?
I think I am turning Muslim!
Pray only towards THE SUN DIRECTION !
😱🙄🤯💥❣️
Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there..." "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them"
@@knguyen6061 who's arguing?
@@job1.21
OK okay debate forms over substance.Moot points
Jesus said Aramaic,not Latin or Greek, is best when speaking to him!
And
Like them Muslims,only facing the sun direction!
I agree.
I agree
ASAP!
👍
Aaaaaamen
Stop creating a division. That's the work of the devil. Just because you prefer Ad Orientum and the Latin Mass, does not mean the rest of the faithful feels the same way. I have grown more and learned more about God's word in the ordinary form of the mass. The Novus Ordo mass has helped me grow more in my faith, as it can be easily understood by young believers. The Gospel is explained in practical terms, and could be easily understood and translated into day to day living. If you hear the mass only for its beauty, but the gospel does not translate in your speech and actions, then what's the point? God does not just want mere worshipers, He wants disciples who follow in His teachings.
Nothing that you have said you value about the Novus Ordo would in any way be derided from by celebrating the Mass using ad orientem liturgical posture.
First: It is not about preference. It is about objective meaning and symbolism. Facing Ad Orientem directs the priest and the faithful towards Christ and has cosmic significance. Second: You can celebrate NOM while facing to the East. There are place where it is done so. No one was going against NOM here.
I'm afraid your comment is rather irrelevant. It's not about feelings of the faithful about the rites. It's all about the fundamental issue of Ad Orientem change which actually and literally has been a liturgical revolution resulting in a lot of confusion, from turning a priest's back to the tabernacle to his becoming a sort of a showman distracting participants' attention from focus on God himself. You can't compare this to the change of the language. I think that's the main point which for new generations changed the Holy Mass into a kind of more or less entertaining performance. I totally agree with Mr Imam that there has never been any justification of it. I can't help thinking it's just a mistake which unfortunately has a lot of bad consequences.
When you say that Fradd is dividing the Church here, is it because you believe ad orientem is illicit in the ordinary form of the Mass?
Ad orientem is allowed in the Novus Ordo. This isn’t about the old vs. new, it’s about where the priest should face.
As a lay person, you don't want to overstep your bounds and usurp the office of the Holy See. You don't determine what is and what is not at mass! Spreading the wrong teachings against her Magisterium is unacceptable.
Thank God they are not doing that
@@d.v.184 We assume we know what is going on in each person's head while they are attending mass by the outside appearances and behavior. This is far from the truth. Only God's know man's heart.
Ad Orientum is not against any church teaching.
Nowhere did any official stand was taken in any documents for Versus Populum. You can correct me if I am wrong.
@@michellemcdermott2026 No priest = No Eucharist. The Eucharist is not to be debated because of the forms of the rite. We do not receive less Christ because it's a N.O. mass or more because it's TLM or the facing or Latin or in the hand or the tongue. This is not for us to determine but only the Holy See. We worship in season and out of season, not purely based on emotions and feelings. The abuses are the fault of the Priest and the assisting people not because of the rite themselves.
I don't mean to uncharitable, but this is the most ridiculous podcast I have heard in a longtime and Pints with Aquinas does a great disservice to the Faithful who may actually believe this. First, always praying to the wall is a fairly recent custom - the 17th century. BTW praying facing the East, which was not necessarily the wall, was merely a human custom. It is not part of the Deposit of Faith. What churches nowadays are built with the actual East in mind? Claiming the wall as a "Liturgical East" is clearly disingenuous. It is certainly not the original manner in which the Breaking of the Bread was done. People love having the priest face them and interact with them as they pray to the Father during Mass. No one thinks of it as a "Show." It is so widely accepted (my guess is 99.9999% of the Faithful) that it would be impossible to change it now. I believe it is ethically wrong to hoodwink people to question what the Faith and Church clearly allow. Think about it. The Mass is the actual re-presentation of the Last Supper. Did Jesus have his back to the Apostles? Of course not! That would be silly. Jesus said when three or more are gathered in his name (like at the Mass) that he would be there. I have a feeling when that happens that he is facing us and not the wall. Remember, at Mass, the priest is acting in Jesus' place. I sincerely hope that Pints with Aquinas think more seriously before presenting these kinds of videos designed to tear down what is good and to make good and honest Faithful think that they and the Church are doing something wrong.
I think you would greatly benefit from reading Pope Benedict’s “The Spirit of the Liturgy”.
@@jcers Thanks, I will do. I have a high regard for Pope Benedict personally and for his theology and philosophy, though not necessarily his administrative skills.
Go back to your "spirit of Vatican 2" and the utter destruction it caused.. ""Liturgical East" is clearly disingenuous. " Bullshit
read the NO mass rubrics. it absolutely was intended for the Priest to celebrate ad orientem.
@@buzsnyder Not how the Church interprets it.
♗🤍 🌄 "In orienting the liturgy towards the East (the Orient), we see that Christians, together with the Lord, desire to proceed towards the salvation of creation in its entirety. Christ, the Crucified and Risen Lord, is at the same time also the ‘sun’ which enlightens the world.” ~ Pope Benedict XVI ♗🤍 🌄
Yes, but so many other beautiful interactions during Mass are lost with Ad Orientum. There is a reason that the Faithful so readily accepted a return to the very original postures of the Breaking of the Bread like at the Last Supper. It is a great disservice to the Church Faithful to push this very unpopular mode of saying Mass. If the Church approves and the overwhelming majority of the People of God like it, why do you try to cause division? If your parish has it and everyone likes it (BTW I bet they don't), then keep it but it is morally wrong to claim it the best way to say Mass.
@@tomredd9025 Which interactions do you think are improved by facing the people?
I agree