I had a thought on how different MGS 3 would be if Snake had Joined the Cobra Unit and I might have even come up with a couple of emotions for snake at the time.. So if that peaks your interest let me know.. Good video 📹 😊
Funny story, liquid was brainwashed by the cia because he wasnt willing to join foxhound. So when he talks about big boss he is a unreliable narrator. Also when he talks about the boss he may also be referring to venom and not the boss. So take his story with a salt mine of salt
Also coming back to this vid. I think he said he didnt know about the card, trick and wanted to pry the info from snake. I dont get why he needs to try and kill him before he gets that info though
@EricM-112 we know that for a fact, or atleast some things were changed whether mistranslation or intentionally changed. For example, Big Boss was originally sterile leading to the creation of Les Enfants terriblé, but the translated version said he was in a coma.
I think that Liquid just snapped at the end when Snake just kept closing in with everything falling apart around Liquid, so in the end the goal to beat Snake became an obsession for him (jealosy maybe)
I think it was a combination of all three: - Liquid knew that as a clone of Big Boss and based on his previous exploits, Snake should have no problem defeating the members of FoxHound and making it all the way to Metal Gear. - If Snake should end up dying anyway, then the Pentagon would've lost their ace-in-the-hole and Liquid's threat of a nuclear attack would be enough to make them give in to his demands, even if it was just a hollow threat. - Liquid's main goal for the terrorist takeover was to lure Snake out of hiding, put him to the test and then finally confront and beat him himself. Even the Pentagon's primary reason for sending in Snake was to pit the twin Snakes against each other and have them kill one another. By extension, that was also Ocelot's main objective and his reason for manipulating events the way he did.
When I last plaeyd I believed Ocelot & Liquid wanted to get rid of their teammates, so commanded them to go stop Snake, knowing he would succeed + also create a "realistic" challenge - foxhound tried to kill snake. This includes Ocelet's early fight, where he stays out of direct range with Snake to limit the damage that could be done.
@@quantumpotato I think Liguid knew the FoxDie virus would kill them all eventually so he probably figured why don't they all have fun trying to kill Snake in the sport of combat instead of just sitting around waiting for death.
Snake's behavior is quite realistic with the psychokinesis interference "dream" : just like the player, he's like "hey that's weird" then he kinda forgets about it because it's a long game and there are more pressing issues, like staying alive.
The vision Snake sees isn't the DARPA chief being killed, it's Psycho Mantis floating in the corridor. The scene showing the dead DARPA chief is just for the player. Snake has no idea it could've been Decoy Octopus in the cell until after he's captured and sees the DARPA chief has been dead and decomposing for longer than he should have been if he'd died in the cell.
The trouble with that idea is that the only time the game leaves Snake's perspective is to show stock footage of nuclear tests, missiles and Policenauts. Whenever we see other characters talking about things, it is only when Snake himself is there to overhear it. There are no cutaways to show how Otacon or Meryl are doing, or for Liquid to give orders. Since this isn't a technique that gets used otherwise, and Snake directly comments on having a hallucination, why should I presume that he does notactually see it?
You're wrong about the scene with Ocelot and Liquid just being for the player because of the codec convo he has with Naomi just after the cutscene. Snake says he just had a hallucination, he says "so what was it?" and Naomi replies that it was an interference *coming from* Psycho Mantis. A *mental feedback loop* . These words make sense when they refer to the cutscene we just watched, not so much when they refer to just seeing Mantis flying in mid-air turning off and on some stealth camouflage. I don't get how your post has 18 upvotes. Are people that dense?
@@armorvil There would be no reason for Snake to be surprised by the DARPA chief's decomposition if he'd seen that the chief had died to Ocelot's torture when the man just died in front of him two minutes before. Snake isn't familiar with the current members of FOXHOUND but his support team, particularly Campbell and Naomi, absolutely are; if Snake says, "Hey I just had a vision of the DARPA chief dying somewhere else," the team immediately knows it must have been Decoy Octopus he'd just interacted with and nothing he said can be trusted. The entire plot falls apart. Also, Mantis wasn't just floating there flipping his camo off and on. He'd projected his presence there to momentarily control Meryl. Snake actually sees the effect this has, that's the hallucination.
@@milesobrien4231 not to mention that in MGS4 it was explained that people could share their vision via Nanomachines. (also seen during the Mantis boss battle where Snake could see Mantis' POV) the "hallucination" is probably just Mantis manipulating Snake's Nanomachines.
4th theory. They didnt know that the card changes. And since snakes got one. He would get the other 2 from his superiors. The other soldiers had to fight him because they thought they could launch. And fox hound fought him because they didnt want him to find out that they couldnt launch the nuke.
I was just thinking too on the note of Decoy Octopus, his plan would have rapidly fell apart if he hadn't have had that heart attack--- the kinds of questions he was asking seemed out of place even for the DARPA chief, even had snake like 'huh?'
@@alexanerwalls3757 yeah I think he was already having the heart attack and maybe it made him panic? But yeah he absolutely loses his chill at the end of their convo.
@@spyrochrisgaminginteresting idea, I never got the feeling it was activated just transmitted like a regular virus while they were talking and like all virus take different amounts of time to affect people.
Here’s something I always thought about that never got brought up again. Liquid Ocelot in MGS2 says to Snake in the Tanker: “No wonder Naomi passed you over for the FOXDIE program.” The hell is he talking about?
You've earned a sub! This video was great and I love the fact it's not hours long like alot of videos like this are. You just get straight to the point
@@HotdogFontaine Yes of course :D. Great job. I think all the theories are pretty good but yeah the 3rd does hold the most weight for sure and makes total sense. Liquid is like that
My thought process is they all knew they were going to die from FOXDIE anyway, as members of Foxhound, they may as well go down fighting. Whereas Liquid, he thought he wouldnt die if Snake lived as well due to the programming
I think your theory 3 is right. Unlike Solidus in the next game, I don't think Liquid ever really cared about his plan beyond "I'm recreating what Dad did in Zanzibarland" and "time to prove I'm the superior son of Big Boss." Liquid seems to be doing a cargo cult version of MG2, acting it out without any real substance. Want your thought on how Liquid parachuted out of a shot down helicopter without being sliced up by the propellers.
@richtersundeen6105: My personal fan opioun is that MGS5 provided subtitle answers to that MGS1 mystery. Quiet is able to use super human reflexes to see Helicopter blades going super slow and time her shots around it thanks to the parasites in her lungs. While Chapter 3 was never fully finished it was shown that Liquid Snake was infected with the parasites for a while until Psycho Mantis used his powers to teleport the parasite bits out of Liquid's lungs in a "I got you bro" gesture. So my personal theory is that in the desperate moment Liquid was able to tap into that parasite lung power to get the Quiet super reflexes to time his parachute jump though the helicopter blades. Makes about as much sense as Fortune getting powers for real when she believed hard enough, but MGS is into the paranormal magic when plot convenient. lol
There are attack helicopters with ejection seat systems. I think the systems blow the rotors off shortly before the ejection sequence. Now whether or not the helo featured in the game realistically has that, idk, but the whole game franchise features futuristic military tech, so I don’t think it’s too much of a leap that Foxhound would have next generation helos with ejection seats.
@@middy774 Liquid used an old Soviet Union Hind D helicopter. Early game codec calls also highlight how Liquid was insane to fight F-16 jets with the helicopter yet he was able to pull off the impossible feat somehow.
You’ve totally misunderstood.. snake doesn’t witness or see them talking that was a cutscene for the player. When snake is talking about interference to Naomi he’s speaking about when mantis appears infront of him as meryl runs in to the lift
Yooo, ur right. It was not for the player. That convo happened but a time apart and theoretically, if snake did die...as if it gave us a possibilty of it going wrong for everyone in that room. No gains.
Solid Snake does not see a vision of the dead DARPA chief, Snake sees Psycho Mantis floating in the hallway. We the player see the scene where the DARPA chief got killed. It's established pretty early on in the game that we, as playera are in for a wild ride and that we are NOT Solid Snake. (Not quoting Pliskin here) We are the player, acompanying Snake. PAL keys are a failsafe yes. Thing is they can only be used once, if you used them to activate them you cannot deactivate REX with them, you'd need the codes. Sure it's a bit simple but that's thr beauty of it. They needed Snake to figure out the PAL keys because they couldn't hack through Baker's files, Otacon can. BTW both Ocarina of Time and MGS came out in 98, wild that both games plot would use the same twist. All bosses do mention that Snake didn't make it there on his own. Raven and Mantis both succumbed to the Naruto syndrome, they deemed Snake worthy of receiving these infos. You have to take in conaideration than most of what we hear from Liquid Snake talking with Ocelot, he knows Snake hears them.
So, the DARPA chief gave all that intel to Solid Snake because it was actually decoy octopus trying to deceive him into activating REX; and that "vision" wasn't a vision, it was a flashback separate from Snake to foreshadow and elude to the fact the real DARPA chief was already accidentally killed and the "idea" Mantis was referring to when they came up with using Decoy Octopus as the DARPA cheif to deceive Snake. As for the rest of genome soldiers and the other bosses trying to kill Snake when he's central to their plan is because they are lower level mercenaries and they don't know what the overarching agenda presiding over their orders is. Also, I think Liquid trusted Solid Snake's skills enough to know he'd be able to outlast them all on top of Liquid getting pure enjoyment testing Snake to see how far he'd be able to go. Considering his lore and motivations, I think as a villain Liquid received satisfaction from watching Snake reach him. And as for the Hind D fight I think at that point Liquid was like "dead or alive works" due to, how you put it, his daddy issues and thinking he'd still be able to ultimately defeat Solid Snake no matter what. Again, he could've just been very calculated in testing Snake to eventually bring him to where Liquid brought him. Liquid was on a pretty crazy power trip by then. - Also, I think it's important to note as well the whole "MISSION FAILED" thing can also be seen sort of like a faint. Although, yes, in the game most of time it means you're ran out of health, you can also see the MISSION FAILED as maybe a "fainted" or "captured" sequence and the game doesn't say "MISSION FAILED" because you died but "MISSION FAILED" and not "FISSION MAILED" because Mission Failed means you didn't finish the mission of the game. So, in that regard, the soldiers and bosses may not all trying to kill snake but maybe incapacitate him as capture. Not sure if that has any value to answering your question with this video or not. - Also, in future games like MGS2 and MGS4 they talk about how a lot of those things during the Shadow Moses incident were setup, surveilled, monitored, and controlled by the patriots [the once shadow oligarchs turned A.I. computer and "invisible hand" of the MGS universe] because it was part of their simulation testing for future events that took place. - No disrespect to you or your channel at all; I love your enthusiasm for the and the effort you put into making this video but some of this in here is slight misinformation/confusion of the story-line by and for people who show signs of not playing the entire series... so I hope this helped!
@@HotdogFontaine Yeah my friend John a I talked about this game a lot and it was all of et the high school too not always for the same reason but either way this game was captured the attention of a lot of teens at my school either for the gameplay the characters the story or a combination of all of it plenty of rumors and stories wacky anitics people got up to messing with the Genome soliders.
I went on a tangent about this while streaming TTS one day. I feel like the game should be WAY too easy getting to the underground bunker, you team up with Meryl, get the keys, accidently activate REX, and then get gassed in the room and captured. Then after losing any gear up to that point, it's up to Snake to re-gear up and survive, while trying to deactivate REX
Simple rly from the point of view of Liquid, the goverment already got the intel from Snake that the Rex is activated (which is false info) so if they killed snake they would buy enough time to figure out the PAL system and uphold the status quo. If Snake survived he would figure out the PAL system for them. It's a win-win. Liquid was manipulated just as Snake was but just by the other party. Little did Liquid know Ocelot was the actual intel for the goverment and the Awacs were coming no matter how he manipulated Snake - Only Colnel's Campbell was group was in the dark. Which leads to the situation where Secretary send Awacs to just wrap up the party not knowing Snake would activate Rex and Liquid not knowing Awacs would be sent but Snake activated the Rex so it would matter little if he knew or not. And only after the last member of Foxhound died other than Liquid by Foxdie secretary started making his moves, when the key people died by Foxdie not leaving it to a chance of surviving Awacs. Storywise i think Foxhound knew that liquid and snake are Big Boss's offspring so each of them wanned to go one on one with Snake.
originally the plan was to steal rex and rex's data, but it became over complicated over time, first when ocelot killed the darpa chief it was probably done intentionally by ocelot,since the darpa chief was one of the original patriots, so psycho mantis thought of tricking snake into activating metal gear, since no one knew the original passwords to activate metal gear, the card keys act as a override safety device that can only be used once, also, most of the time they were toying with snake, once you beat raven in the tank part, he tells liquid if it's alright to just giving him the card that easily, witch liquid responds: "we;ll play with him a little longer", then eventually snake was getting good at fighting the members of fox hound, and he over came them just like naked snake did with the cobra unit, so since snake figured it out how to use the card keys, they planed to gas him on the terminal room, since he is very good at sneaking, it's not like they could've just head shot the guy and take away the pal key to activate metal gear, so it was easier to trap him and gas him, but he kept pushing until he fights liquid hand to hand, since ocelot was the triple agent, he just played his part, and successfully stole rex's data while at the same time getting rid of fox hound unit, and killing a patriot in the process, originally they were going to kill snake too, but Naomi deactivated the nano machines at the end of the game, remember, they mention she betrayed the terrorist since she didn't wanted to be part of the plan, but originally she was being a double agent, but at the end she couldn't kill snake, so she let him live.
Anyways it's cool to see you have only 500 subscribers and this video is popular... I love how Metal Gear Solid videos brings all of us out of the woodworks 🎉😊
@@KingBasewyn that's a good point. We get a few instances where they'll use the full title like Campbell calls him Liquid Snake I think. Most everyone in the game refers to him by Boss except Solid Snake.
@Hotdog Fontaine: I wanted to add 2 things: 1. IIRC the post credits dialogue Ocelot mentions that Liquid was always told he had the inferior soldier genes. Suggesting it was a fabricated lie to steer him into obsessively wanting to surpass Solid Snake. Which plays into theory 3. 2. Liquid knew Solid Snake was injected with the FoxDie virus that would eventually kill him and all his FoxHound members with a heart attack. So I think it turned the situation with Solid into a twisted no-win game. Maybe they can kill him in combat as fun revenge sport, but even if they do they are doomed to succumb to heart attack eventually. Just my thought.
@@HotdogFontaine It also just occurred to me that it makes total sense the PAL Cards would activate the nukes IF you assume the 3 keycards and 2 Pal Codes provide the identical cryptographic password hash to the the computer system. In the real world Secure password encryption systems never store the actual passwords locally cause it would be too easy to peek inside system memory to get password. Instead ONLY the proper password hash allows the system to unscramble the encrypted gibberish data into orderly data for the computer to operate with. With this in mind the nuclear launch system is probably only only seeing the password hashes to unscramble or re-scramble its encypted launch data. Thus by its design it can only act like a dumb key lock that goes on/off. Instead of having a smart logic tree that goes "gee these Pal Cards can only turn off nukes not arm them." Just my 2 cents.
Okay so i hope other people have come up to the conclusion. But one of the demands of Fox Hound was Big Boss remains. Snake and everyone else he was to make contact with were to die due to a virus... Foxhound knew this. This would secure the retrieval of Metal Gear and the new Nuclear Weapon. Some of these members probably wanted to go all out if they were going to die anyways. But let's say ending Solid Snake prematurely would have brought a huge ordeal and possibly be taken more serious with the demand of Big Boss Remains. Cause at the end of the day the remains were more important than the capability to launch a nuclear weapon.
Yes, I think Liquid's team really was willing to die for the cause, although Ocelot was a fly in the ointment due to his Chronic Backstabbing Disorder. Your theory 2 holds some weight. And 3 has merits too. I think 1: Psycho Mantis and Sniper Wolf were Ride Or Die friends to Liquid at Shadow Moses. 2: Vulcan Raven was willing to fake the tank fight, but refused to job out for the second confrontation. He also dropped the hint about Decoy Octopus because he didn't like the deception, but refused to directly sabotage the plan, but if Solid had put the clues together he wouldn't be sad. 3:. Ocelot was trying and not trying to sabotage the plan, but couldn't fully stop it... Or tried both and let it happen because it benefitted his future plans. Liquid definitely wanted to prove himself by the end, but I think he knew that the chopper attack wasn't going to be enough, and deliberately missed in the rappelling scene. So I think there's a bit of all three options in the real events at Shadow Moses.
Ocelot absolutely wanted Liquid's plan to work. He wants the same thing Liquid wants, and he tells Snake in the torture sequence that Liquid (who Ocelot knows is the superior twin) is the one man who can make his dream a reality. That Ocelot was hiding things from Liquid and had a bunch of backup plans if things went wrong doesn't change that.
To add on to your third theory in MGS4 ocelot tries to kill snake with the Outer Haven arsenal gear at the end of chapter 4. Ocelot needs snake alive for his plans here as well and yet because he has a copy of liquid's mind grafted on to his he nearly screws up his own plan. I definitely think you third theory holds up pretty well.
Im gonna go with theory 3. Liquid, like many of the enemies in the game, was not playing with a full deck I mean have you listened to Revolver Ocelot go on and on about Revolvers
I thought about this before - always thought it didn't make sense to attack Snake that way if they really needed him for the keys. I absolutely love your last theory and I believe it is the right one. Fits with the character and allows the other 2 theories to work too.
I always wondered but what would have happened had Liquid snake won, killed Solid Snake leading to the Foxhound uprising somehow going just as planned? Maybe by chance Ocelot was a bit careless in the first showdown, accidently taking Snake out so the foxdie virus isn't able to infect its targets etc.
The Last Days of Foxhound is a great parody web comic focusing on the MGS1 bosses and goes into all of their planning for their insurrection. At one point Decoy Octopus brings up this very point and asks what exactly they're planning in the long run, because, while fulfilling Big Boss's dream on paper sounds great and all, the very presence of Rex means they're alienating all of their potential allies and dooming themselves to isolation in inhospitable Alaska. They are basically just giving a giant middle finger to the world in a plan that has no long term viability at all.
LOVED Last Days of Foxhound. Yeah I mean I don't think Liquids plan would have worked even without FoxDie. They still likely would have bombed Shadow Moses the second Snake died.
Have you ever played this game? All of your questions are answered in the game? The reason why they left the card with him is because they didn't understand how the card worked and thought there was three separate cards. That is something Snake himself thinks until IIRC the Colonel tells him otherwise. The reason why they "try to kill him" throughout the whole game is because they aren't trying to kill him, the regular genome soldiers aren't a threat to him and the rest of the members of Foxhound intentionally die to you. Vulcan raven hints at it (it is my existence that is no longer needed in this world) and Liquid outright tells you that towards the end "Do you think you could have made it here alone without us allowing it?" or something like that. And the reason why the PAL both arms and disarms the nuke is because that is actually how PALs work. They're a real thing.
I didn't know PALs were a real thing so that's helpful. And I'm not asking why they left the card with him I'm asking why Snake didn't find that odd. And I talk about the last part in video. I think WILLING to die and dying WILLINGLY are two different things personally.v
@@HotdogFontaine Most of them are willing to die. Mantis and Wolf for instance have both accepted death and welcome it when Snake gives it to them. Raven is a fatalist and sees it as what has to happen. Ocelot doesn't want to die, and doesn't, and it isn't clear with Octopus. The thing you have to remember is that all of them are aware of foxdie (somehow) and know they have been targeted for it, so their deaths are essentially inevitable anyway. As for why snake doesn't find it odd, it's never actually explained but it is not automatically odd. It may be as simple as they hadn't bothered to go through his stuff yet, especially since they didn't expect him to get out (or at least that would be what Snake thinks). He was only in the cell for a couple of hours at most, they left all of his gear where they stripped him, which suggests they didn't go through it, and if they already had the nuclear codes they wouldn't be looking for the PAL keycard with any real effort (as the only thing the keycard does is put the codes in automatically). That Ocelot left the bomb in his gear is something that should have given him a moment, but at the same time Ocelot is kind of an idiot and it may just have been some silly thing Ocelot did.
another question would be is how much ocelot played into the plan. we know he was the driving force behind basically everything in the first 4 'solid' games, so who knows how much his manipulation was a part
1:47 I just realized it now but autocon says he hacked Baker's files to figure out the trick to the key card to activate deactivate the nuclear weapons...... during the conversation Baker never mentioned it and really could have saved Solid Snake a lot of time
Ocelot knew Liquid would lose his cool over his "superior" (but not really) twin being on Shadow Moses, messing up his concentration and ultimately dying. Even if Snake was killed, it's fine because Liquid would succumb to FoxDie. All Ocelot needed was the disc that he stole from Snake. Everything was planned, except for Solid Snake surviving... That was a factor that wasn't really considered. That, I feel, best parallels MGS2 with Snake once again disrupting the set plan. All of this culminates in MGS4 where Snake is considered as a part of the plan and, finally, Ocelot succeeds in removing Zero's system.
Maybe foxhound members don't trust each other, so some of them know and just hiding it, than they just used solid snake to avoid the risk of killing each other, I remember liquid said to solid that he let him survive until the end, but he said also that solid was send to make contact with foxhound members and kill them with foxdie.
Everything happened in shadow mosses is just a foot note story carefully orchestrated by Bigboss from the very start Ocelot is there to make sure of that master plan and the plan who wins between the superior liquid snake and inferior solid snake, everything is but a masterfully crafted simulation by the bigboss naked snake himself behind the courtains. If you know how Kojima mind works this is the exact scenario fitted with their story.
Just few points. First , "If your attack goes well than you are walking into a trap" making it too easy would make it obvios. Second thing is baker gave hid code but Darpa Chief didn't so they would be forced to find a second way. Third point and I think this is important , pal key wasn't at their hand if we look at what happend it is easy to say Baker knew nothing about this system (he knew it existed but didn't knew details of how it worked) . Fourth point is simply making one card only way to activate and deactivate could be more practicle. Remember for most of Cold War nuclear launch code was a long line of 0's . Maybe they did system like that to make it quicker to activate as it is "the Ultimate Weapon" .
@@HotdogFontaine I realy don't remember who's data he hacked into but I take your word. But I have another question. Did they used Mantis's powers or just torture? Baker talked about torture but he should have anti Mantis mind protection but he is an old man with money , not an soldire that was trained to resist torture
Well it's pretty obvious why. Snake didn't even know who Liquid was. Also if you played the original MSX games, there was no dialogue between Snake and Big Boss revealing they were father and son. That was souly made for this game. Kojima thought it was genius, he'll retcon it in 4&5 twice.
I think they are all correct. Foxhound knows Snake has Foxdie. So they do want to kill him because otherwise they will die if Snake comes in close contsct with him. And they need him to activate Rex. Because they dont know how and I thi k Liquid likes the idea of Snake being responsible for activating a Metal Gear. This still doesnt answer why Ocelot shoots the key. Unless Ocelot wants snake not to activate it so the Patriots can steal the metal gear once fox die kills Liquid? But Metal Gear just stood in Shadow Moses in till MGS4 so I maybe Ocelot just wants to sabotage Liquid.
Can you explain why Snake was fooled by Liquid pretending to be Master Miller? I feel like he would’ve recognized his own face wearing sunglasses as well as the fact that Miller’s voice sounded off compared to how we know he actually sounds in Peace Walker and MGSV.
My question has always been why is the emergency shut down so damn awkward Your telling me that if Rex was activated my accident and they needed to deactivate it some Technician is running round the base like snake did?
I feel like if they were to kill Snake, they could have just looted the PAL key from his body and activate Rex themselves. It's not like Snake was mandatory for the activation, he just happened to be useful to FoxHound
They didn't know how to use the key. As far as they were aware, there were also three keys with all of them being missing, only one being located when they captured Snake (or rather when Snake would have told Miller he got one). Sure, they could have looted the key from him but they'd still need to track down the other two keys somehow in a reasonably large base with no clue as to where and no one who might know willing to help them. So it was kind of a case of them needing Snake to figure it out (thanks to people like Otacon and Meryl (and his support team, can't remember off hand who figures out the card trick in the end) who might know more than they do) but if he did die then they could still potentially find the other two (actually nonexistent) keys, it just wasn't a guarantee. It was kind of a bizarre simultaneous win-win lose-lose situation for Fox Hound.
If they weren't trying to kill Snake, the very least they could have done was turn of the electric floors. No way Snake would have went The floor's not trying to kill me, it must be a trap!"
I think liquid wanted to beat snake more than he wanted his plan to work. He knew they would all inevitably die to foxdie, but he went out of his way to keep trying to kill snake. He had 4 boss fights AND joined in mgs2. Also hes still crying about the inferior genes.
There was one line of dialogue from Vulcan Raven that kinda bothered me. "Snakes don't belong in Alaska..." Does he not realize that their leader also have the code name of "Snake"? I'd like someone to explain that to me...
Something that bothered me is that Ocelot says "We can launch at any time" when they don't have the key, and when Snake and Otacon haven't figured out the trick about changing the temperature of the key (Right before he shoots the key off Snake's hand and it falls into the ditch). Why would he say that, when they were up crap creek without a paddle at that point?
MGS1 is a groundbreaking game that completely steered videogaming as a whole in a completely different direction, starting the cinematographication of gaming, for sure, but the plot has more holes than a swiss cheese, and it's downright ludicrous at times, like B Series ludicrous. It gets a pass because something called 'videogame logic' and because it's 15 year old content.
MG1, MG2, MGS1, MGS2 and most of MGS3 were not stupid. MGS 3 did begin to get a few stupid elements creep in, mostly the abilities of all the bosses. MGS4 and MGSV had way too many stupid elements. You’re right that MGS1 was perfect though. No game will ever be as revolutionary in every aspect as that one was.
I was a child when this game appeared, and i had a demo on ps1, this game marked a canon event on my life, sad to realize that modern games are too much under unnecessary political pressure and forgotten minority rights that no one cares, ... bla bla bla everyone it's the tiny hat club ruining everything since time eternal ...
Those are some pretty interesting theories, and yeah it would make sense to ask questions like "Why didn't they just take the PAL Key and activate it themselves" But then again, detail on how to change the card wasn't exactly something they had easy access to, and it took Otacon to break into his files to find out how the key works. But then again through trial and error you could make a guessing assumption that you needed to freeze and heat the cards somehow to activate it.
Hot and Fresh! We now have a discord! Join the Condiment Crew here: discord.gg/q84kTjHjDw
I had a thought on how different MGS 3 would be if Snake had Joined the Cobra Unit and I might have even come up with a couple of emotions for snake at the time.. So if that peaks your interest let me know.. Good video 📹 😊
Funny story, liquid was brainwashed by the cia because he wasnt willing to join foxhound. So when he talks about big boss he is a unreliable narrator. Also when he talks about the boss he may also be referring to venom and not the boss. So take his story with a salt mine of salt
Also coming back to this vid. I think he said he didnt know about the card, trick and wanted to pry the info from snake. I dont get why he needs to try and kill him before he gets that info though
Old person here. People talked about this subject to death 25 years ago and came up with no substantial answer so we gave up and forgot about it.
Im sure some plot was lost in translation
That's a good point, probably true @@EricM-112
@EricM-112 we know that for a fact, or atleast some things were changed whether mistranslation or intentionally changed. For example, Big Boss was originally sterile leading to the creation of Les Enfants terriblé, but the translated version said he was in a coma.
I think that Liquid just snapped at the end when Snake just kept closing in with everything falling apart around Liquid, so in the end the goal to beat Snake became an obsession for him (jealosy maybe)
I definitely think Liquid loses it by the end.
I think it was a combination of all three:
- Liquid knew that as a clone of Big Boss and based on his previous exploits, Snake should have no problem defeating the members of FoxHound and making it all the way to Metal Gear.
- If Snake should end up dying anyway, then the Pentagon would've lost their ace-in-the-hole and Liquid's threat of a nuclear attack would be enough to make them give in to his demands, even if it was just a hollow threat.
- Liquid's main goal for the terrorist takeover was to lure Snake out of hiding, put him to the test and then finally confront and beat him himself. Even the Pentagon's primary reason for sending in Snake was to pit the twin Snakes against each other and have them kill one another. By extension, that was also Ocelot's main objective and his reason for manipulating events the way he did.
Mate i think you're bang on.. ypure pretty good
When I last plaeyd I believed Ocelot & Liquid wanted to get rid of their teammates, so commanded them to go stop Snake, knowing he would succeed + also create a "realistic" challenge - foxhound tried to kill snake. This includes Ocelet's early fight, where he stays out of direct range with Snake to limit the damage that could be done.
i read this in JC's voice lmoa@@quantumpotato
@@quantumpotato I think Liguid knew the FoxDie virus would kill them all eventually so he probably figured why don't they all have fun trying to kill Snake in the sport of combat instead of just sitting around waiting for death.
@@Railgun225 When do you think Liquid knew about foxdie?
Snake's behavior is quite realistic with the psychokinesis interference "dream" : just like the player, he's like "hey that's weird" then he kinda forgets about it because it's a long game and there are more pressing issues, like staying alive.
The vision Snake sees isn't the DARPA chief being killed, it's Psycho Mantis floating in the corridor. The scene showing the dead DARPA chief is just for the player. Snake has no idea it could've been Decoy Octopus in the cell until after he's captured and sees the DARPA chief has been dead and decomposing for longer than he should have been if he'd died in the cell.
@@milesobrien4231 a couple of people have pointed this out. I think you are correct.
The trouble with that idea is that the only time the game leaves Snake's perspective is to show stock footage of nuclear tests, missiles and Policenauts. Whenever we see other characters talking about things, it is only when Snake himself is there to overhear it. There are no cutaways to show how Otacon or Meryl are doing, or for Liquid to give orders. Since this isn't a technique that gets used otherwise, and Snake directly comments on having a hallucination, why should I presume that he does notactually see it?
You're wrong about the scene with Ocelot and Liquid just being for the player because of the codec convo he has with Naomi just after the cutscene. Snake says he just had a hallucination, he says "so what was it?" and Naomi replies that it was an interference *coming from* Psycho Mantis. A *mental feedback loop* . These words make sense when they refer to the cutscene we just watched, not so much when they refer to just seeing Mantis flying in mid-air turning off and on some stealth camouflage. I don't get how your post has 18 upvotes. Are people that dense?
@@armorvil There would be no reason for Snake to be surprised by the DARPA chief's decomposition if he'd seen that the chief had died to Ocelot's torture when the man just died in front of him two minutes before.
Snake isn't familiar with the current members of FOXHOUND but his support team, particularly Campbell and Naomi, absolutely are; if Snake says, "Hey I just had a vision of the DARPA chief dying somewhere else," the team immediately knows it must have been Decoy Octopus he'd just interacted with and nothing he said can be trusted. The entire plot falls apart.
Also, Mantis wasn't just floating there flipping his camo off and on. He'd projected his presence there to momentarily control Meryl. Snake actually sees the effect this has, that's the hallucination.
@@milesobrien4231 not to mention that in MGS4 it was explained that people could share their vision via Nanomachines. (also seen during the Mantis boss battle where Snake could see Mantis' POV) the "hallucination" is probably just Mantis manipulating Snake's Nanomachines.
4th theory.
They didnt know that the card changes. And since snakes got one. He would get the other 2 from his superiors.
The other soldiers had to fight him because they thought they could launch.
And fox hound fought him because they didnt want him to find out that they couldnt launch the nuke.
I was just thinking too on the note of Decoy Octopus, his plan would have rapidly fell apart if he hadn't have had that heart attack--- the kinds of questions he was asking seemed out of place even for the DARPA chief, even had snake like 'huh?'
@@alexanerwalls3757 yeah I think he was already having the heart attack and maybe it made him panic? But yeah he absolutely loses his chill at the end of their convo.
Pretty sure Octopus died because he mentioned the Pentagon. He went too far with that word and FOXDIE got activated at that precise moment.
@@spyrochrisgaminginteresting idea, I never got the feeling it was activated just transmitted like a regular virus while they were talking and like all virus take different amounts of time to affect people.
These are just the kind of pitfalls you naturally fall into whenever you design an "all according to plan" villain, regardless of the logic.
Here’s something I always thought about that never got brought up again. Liquid Ocelot in MGS2 says to Snake in the Tanker: “No wonder Naomi passed you over for the FOXDIE program.” The hell is he talking about?
@@loregasmic I have plenty of videos like this planned for MGS2 lmao
To this day , still wonder what Naomi wanted to say to Snake..
Before she was cut off by the Colonel.
*The between the cargo elevator scene.
Me too. She also tells him next to nothing at the end of the game.
You've earned a sub! This video was great and I love the fact it's not hours long like alot of videos like this are. You just get straight to the point
@@TailsGaming1999 thank you! It means a lot
@@HotdogFontaine Yes of course :D. Great job. I think all the theories are pretty good but yeah the 3rd does hold the most weight for sure and makes total sense. Liquid is like that
My thought process is they all knew they were going to die from FOXDIE anyway, as members of Foxhound, they may as well go down fighting. Whereas Liquid, he thought he wouldnt die if Snake lived as well due to the programming
I think your theory 3 is right. Unlike Solidus in the next game, I don't think Liquid ever really cared about his plan beyond "I'm recreating what Dad did in Zanzibarland" and "time to prove I'm the superior son of Big Boss." Liquid seems to be doing a cargo cult version of MG2, acting it out without any real substance.
Want your thought on how Liquid parachuted out of a shot down helicopter without being sliced up by the propellers.
@@richtersundeen6105 I have ZERO theories for that one lol.
@richtersundeen6105: My personal fan opioun is that MGS5 provided subtitle answers to that MGS1 mystery. Quiet is able to use super human reflexes to see Helicopter blades going super slow and time her shots around it thanks to the parasites in her lungs. While Chapter 3 was never fully finished it was shown that Liquid Snake was infected with the parasites for a while until Psycho Mantis used his powers to teleport the parasite bits out of Liquid's lungs in a "I got you bro" gesture. So my personal theory is that in the desperate moment Liquid was able to tap into that parasite lung power to get the Quiet super reflexes to time his parachute jump though the helicopter blades. Makes about as much sense as Fortune getting powers for real when she believed hard enough, but MGS is into the paranormal magic when plot convenient. lol
There are attack helicopters with ejection seat systems. I think the systems blow the rotors off shortly before the ejection sequence. Now whether or not the helo featured in the game realistically has that, idk, but the whole game franchise features futuristic military tech, so I don’t think it’s too much of a leap that Foxhound would have next generation helos with ejection seats.
@@middy774 Liquid used an old Soviet Union Hind D helicopter. Early game codec calls also highlight how Liquid was insane to fight F-16 jets with the helicopter yet he was able to pull off the impossible feat somehow.
You’ve totally misunderstood.. snake doesn’t witness or see them talking that was a cutscene for the player. When snake is talking about interference to Naomi he’s speaking about when mantis appears infront of him as meryl runs in to the lift
Yooo, ur right. It was not for the player. That convo happened but a time apart and theoretically, if snake did die...as if it gave us a possibilty of it going wrong for everyone in that room. No gains.
Solid Snake does not see a vision of the dead DARPA chief, Snake sees Psycho Mantis floating in the hallway. We the player see the scene where the DARPA chief got killed. It's established pretty early on in the game that we, as playera are in for a wild ride and that we are NOT Solid Snake. (Not quoting Pliskin here)
We are the player, acompanying Snake.
PAL keys are a failsafe yes. Thing is they can only be used once, if you used them to activate them you cannot deactivate REX with them, you'd need the codes. Sure it's a bit simple but that's thr beauty of it. They needed Snake to figure out the PAL keys because they couldn't hack through Baker's files, Otacon can.
BTW both Ocarina of Time and MGS came out in 98, wild that both games plot would use the same twist.
All bosses do mention that Snake didn't make it there on his own.
Raven and Mantis both succumbed to the Naruto syndrome, they deemed Snake worthy of receiving these infos.
You have to take in conaideration than most of what we hear from Liquid Snake talking with Ocelot, he knows Snake hears them.
I mention your first point in my last video! Thanks for sharing your insight on this you make a lot of great points too.
So, the DARPA chief gave all that intel to Solid Snake because it was actually decoy octopus trying to deceive him into activating REX; and that "vision" wasn't a vision, it was a flashback separate from Snake to foreshadow and elude to the fact the real DARPA chief was already accidentally killed and the "idea" Mantis was referring to when they came up with using Decoy Octopus as the DARPA cheif to deceive Snake. As for the rest of genome soldiers and the other bosses trying to kill Snake when he's central to their plan is because they are lower level mercenaries and they don't know what the overarching agenda presiding over their orders is. Also, I think Liquid trusted Solid Snake's skills enough to know he'd be able to outlast them all on top of Liquid getting pure enjoyment testing Snake to see how far he'd be able to go. Considering his lore and motivations, I think as a villain Liquid received satisfaction from watching Snake reach him. And as for the Hind D fight I think at that point Liquid was like "dead or alive works" due to, how you put it, his daddy issues and thinking he'd still be able to ultimately defeat Solid Snake no matter what. Again, he could've just been very calculated in testing Snake to eventually bring him to where Liquid brought him. Liquid was on a pretty crazy power trip by then. - Also, I think it's important to note as well the whole "MISSION FAILED" thing can also be seen sort of like a faint. Although, yes, in the game most of time it means you're ran out of health, you can also see the MISSION FAILED as maybe a "fainted" or "captured" sequence and the game doesn't say "MISSION FAILED" because you died but "MISSION FAILED" and not "FISSION MAILED" because Mission Failed means you didn't finish the mission of the game. So, in that regard, the soldiers and bosses may not all trying to kill snake but maybe incapacitate him as capture. Not sure if that has any value to answering your question with this video or not. - Also, in future games like MGS2 and MGS4 they talk about how a lot of those things during the Shadow Moses incident were setup, surveilled, monitored, and controlled by the patriots [the once shadow oligarchs turned A.I. computer and "invisible hand" of the MGS universe] because it was part of their simulation testing for future events that took place. - No disrespect to you or your channel at all; I love your enthusiasm for the and the effort you put into making this video but some of this in here is slight misinformation/confusion of the story-line by and for people who show signs of not playing the entire series... so I hope this helped!
Intriguing and I keep thinking Liquid wanted to eliminate Solid to prove his superiority
Yeah I always wondered about this me and my friend used to debate it all the time.
Take as old as time I guess.
@@HotdogFontaine Yeah my friend John a I talked about this game a lot and it was all of et the high school too not always for the same reason but either way this game was captured the attention of a lot of teens at my school either for the gameplay the characters the story or a combination of all of it plenty of rumors and stories wacky anitics people got up to messing with the Genome soliders.
I went on a tangent about this while streaming TTS one day. I feel like the game should be WAY too easy getting to the underground bunker, you team up with Meryl, get the keys, accidently activate REX, and then get gassed in the room and captured. Then after losing any gear up to that point, it's up to Snake to re-gear up and survive, while trying to deactivate REX
Would have given you more time with Meryl that way too.
Simple rly from the point of view of Liquid, the goverment already got the intel from Snake that the Rex is activated (which is false info) so if they killed snake they would buy enough time to figure out the PAL system and uphold the status quo. If Snake survived he would figure out the PAL system for them. It's a win-win. Liquid was manipulated just as Snake was but just by the other party. Little did Liquid know Ocelot was the actual intel for the goverment and the Awacs were coming no matter how he manipulated Snake - Only Colnel's Campbell was group was in the dark. Which leads to the situation where Secretary send Awacs to just wrap up the party not knowing Snake would activate Rex and Liquid not knowing Awacs would be sent but Snake activated the Rex so it would matter little if he knew or not.
And only after the last member of Foxhound died other than Liquid by Foxdie secretary started making his moves, when the key people died by Foxdie not leaving it to a chance of surviving Awacs.
Storywise i think Foxhound knew that liquid and snake are Big Boss's offspring so each of them wanned to go one on one with Snake.
originally the plan was to steal rex and rex's data, but it became over complicated over time, first when ocelot killed the darpa chief it was probably done intentionally by ocelot,since the darpa chief was one of the original patriots, so psycho mantis thought of tricking snake into activating metal gear, since no one knew the original passwords to activate metal gear, the card keys act as a override safety device that can only be used once, also, most of the time they were toying with snake, once you beat raven in the tank part, he tells liquid if it's alright to just giving him the card that easily, witch liquid responds: "we;ll play with him a little longer", then eventually snake was getting good at fighting the members of fox hound, and he over came them just like naked snake did with the cobra unit, so since snake figured it out how to use the card keys, they planed to gas him on the terminal room, since he is very good at sneaking, it's not like they could've just head shot the guy and take away the pal key to activate metal gear, so it was easier to trap him and gas him, but he kept pushing until he fights liquid hand to hand, since ocelot was the triple agent, he just played his part, and successfully stole rex's data while at the same time getting rid of fox hound unit, and killing a patriot in the process, originally they were going to kill snake too, but Naomi deactivated the nano machines at the end of the game, remember, they mention she betrayed the terrorist since she didn't wanted to be part of the plan, but originally she was being a double agent, but at the end she couldn't kill snake, so she let him live.
They wanted to catch Snake alive, and they knew it would take a lot to unalive him anyway so weren't worried about accidentally doing it.
Anyways it's cool to see you have only 500 subscribers and this video is popular... I love how Metal Gear Solid videos brings all of us out of the woodworks 🎉😊
Thanks! More coming too I'm hoping to continue to grow!
This might not be the rule, but I came up with the thought that Liquid is never referred to as ‘Snake’ and Snake is never referred to as ‘Solid’.
@@KingBasewyn that's a good point. We get a few instances where they'll use the full title like Campbell calls him Liquid Snake I think. Most everyone in the game refers to him by Boss except Solid Snake.
I really wonder about how Gray Fox got to Shadow Moses Island
Maybe it was his snowmobile at the end. Haha
@Hotdog Fontaine: I wanted to add 2 things: 1. IIRC the post credits dialogue Ocelot mentions that Liquid was always told he had the inferior soldier genes. Suggesting it was a fabricated lie to steer him into obsessively wanting to surpass Solid Snake. Which plays into theory 3. 2. Liquid knew Solid Snake was injected with the FoxDie virus that would eventually kill him and all his FoxHound members with a heart attack. So I think it turned the situation with Solid into a twisted no-win game. Maybe they can kill him in combat as fun revenge sport, but even if they do they are doomed to succumb to heart attack eventually. Just my thought.
@@Railgun225 great points.
@@HotdogFontaine It also just occurred to me that it makes total sense the PAL Cards would activate the nukes IF you assume the 3 keycards and 2 Pal Codes provide the identical cryptographic password hash to the the computer system.
In the real world Secure password encryption systems never store the actual passwords locally cause it would be too easy to peek inside system memory to get password. Instead ONLY the proper password hash allows the system to unscramble the encrypted gibberish data into orderly data for the computer to operate with. With this in mind the nuclear launch system is probably only only seeing the password hashes to unscramble or re-scramble its encypted launch data. Thus by its design it can only act like a dumb key lock that goes on/off. Instead of having a smart logic tree that goes "gee these Pal Cards can only turn off nukes not arm them." Just my 2 cents.
Okay so i hope other people have come up to the conclusion. But one of the demands of Fox Hound was Big Boss remains. Snake and everyone else he was to make contact with were to die due to a virus... Foxhound knew this. This would secure the retrieval of Metal Gear and the new Nuclear Weapon. Some of these members probably wanted to go all out if they were going to die anyways. But let's say ending Solid Snake prematurely would have brought a huge ordeal and possibly be taken more serious with the demand of Big Boss Remains. Cause at the end of the day the remains were more important than the capability to launch a nuclear weapon.
Yes, I think Liquid's team really was willing to die for the cause, although Ocelot was a fly in the ointment due to his Chronic Backstabbing Disorder.
Your theory 2 holds some weight.
And 3 has merits too.
I think
1: Psycho Mantis and Sniper Wolf were Ride Or Die friends to Liquid at Shadow Moses.
2: Vulcan Raven was willing to fake the tank fight, but refused to job out for the second confrontation. He also dropped the hint about Decoy Octopus because he didn't like the deception, but refused to directly sabotage the plan, but if Solid had put the clues together he wouldn't be sad.
3:. Ocelot was trying and not trying to sabotage the plan, but couldn't fully stop it... Or tried both and let it happen because it benefitted his future plans.
Liquid definitely wanted to prove himself by the end, but I think he knew that the chopper attack wasn't going to be enough, and deliberately missed in the rappelling scene.
So I think there's a bit of all three options in the real events at Shadow Moses.
I see someone is a fan of The Last Days Of Foxhound.
@@DarthEquus Very much so! It's an excellent webcomic that I honestly miss, but enjoyed while it was running, and am glad I read. :)
This video was incredible!
@@ThePredator1997 thank you!
Ocelot absolutely wanted Liquid's plan to work. He wants the same thing Liquid wants, and he tells Snake in the torture sequence that Liquid (who Ocelot knows is the superior twin) is the one man who can make his dream a reality.
That Ocelot was hiding things from Liquid and had a bunch of backup plans if things went wrong doesn't change that.
5:02 i hate it when i forget where i put the claymore
@@jonathanplooij3666 lol yep absolutely
To add on to your third theory in MGS4 ocelot tries to kill snake with the Outer Haven arsenal gear at the end of chapter 4. Ocelot needs snake alive for his plans here as well and yet because he has a copy of liquid's mind grafted on to his he nearly screws up his own plan. I definitely think you third theory holds up pretty well.
Great point;
Im gonna go with theory 3. Liquid, like many of the enemies in the game, was not playing with a full deck
I mean have you listened to Revolver Ocelot go on and on about Revolvers
"this gun is the best gun evaaaah"
I thought about this before - always thought it didn't make sense to attack Snake that way if they really needed him for the keys. I absolutely love your last theory and I believe it is the right one. Fits with the character and allows the other 2 theories to work too.
@@RediarX thanks! Yeah I was mostly having some fun here but I do like the head canon.
I always wondered but what would have happened had Liquid snake won, killed Solid Snake leading to the Foxhound uprising somehow going just as planned? Maybe by chance Ocelot was a bit careless in the first showdown, accidently taking Snake out so the foxdie virus isn't able to infect its targets etc.
The Last Days of Foxhound is a great parody web comic focusing on the MGS1 bosses and goes into all of their planning for their insurrection. At one point Decoy Octopus brings up this very point and asks what exactly they're planning in the long run, because, while fulfilling Big Boss's dream on paper sounds great and all, the very presence of Rex means they're alienating all of their potential allies and dooming themselves to isolation in inhospitable Alaska. They are basically just giving a giant middle finger to the world in a plan that has no long term viability at all.
LOVED Last Days of Foxhound. Yeah I mean I don't think Liquids plan would have worked even without FoxDie. They still likely would have bombed Shadow Moses the second Snake died.
You're pretty good.
But for real, good job. Keep it up and I'm sure your channel will do great!
Thank you! That means a lot.
@@HotdogFontaine No problem! Your writing, editing and narration quality is all there so I'm sure it's just a matter of time :)
Have you ever played this game? All of your questions are answered in the game? The reason why they left the card with him is because they didn't understand how the card worked and thought there was three separate cards. That is something Snake himself thinks until IIRC the Colonel tells him otherwise. The reason why they "try to kill him" throughout the whole game is because they aren't trying to kill him, the regular genome soldiers aren't a threat to him and the rest of the members of Foxhound intentionally die to you. Vulcan raven hints at it (it is my existence that is no longer needed in this world) and Liquid outright tells you that towards the end "Do you think you could have made it here alone without us allowing it?" or something like that.
And the reason why the PAL both arms and disarms the nuke is because that is actually how PALs work. They're a real thing.
I didn't know PALs were a real thing so that's helpful. And I'm not asking why they left the card with him I'm asking why Snake didn't find that odd. And I talk about the last part in video. I think WILLING to die and dying WILLINGLY are two different things personally.v
@@HotdogFontaine Most of them are willing to die. Mantis and Wolf for instance have both accepted death and welcome it when Snake gives it to them. Raven is a fatalist and sees it as what has to happen. Ocelot doesn't want to die, and doesn't, and it isn't clear with Octopus. The thing you have to remember is that all of them are aware of foxdie (somehow) and know they have been targeted for it, so their deaths are essentially inevitable anyway.
As for why snake doesn't find it odd, it's never actually explained but it is not automatically odd. It may be as simple as they hadn't bothered to go through his stuff yet, especially since they didn't expect him to get out (or at least that would be what Snake thinks). He was only in the cell for a couple of hours at most, they left all of his gear where they stripped him, which suggests they didn't go through it, and if they already had the nuclear codes they wouldn't be looking for the PAL keycard with any real effort (as the only thing the keycard does is put the codes in automatically).
That Ocelot left the bomb in his gear is something that should have given him a moment, but at the same time Ocelot is kind of an idiot and it may just have been some silly thing Ocelot did.
another question would be is how much ocelot played into the plan. we know he was the driving force behind basically everything in the first 4 'solid' games, so who knows how much his manipulation was a part
Yeah I find his role in mgs1 specifically to be very interesting.
only 30 seconds in and I'm pretty sure I know what youre gonna say and boy am I interested. This always confused the hell out of me too.
@@TheSoapyJew oh man. We're you right?
1:47
I just realized it now but autocon says he hacked Baker's files to figure out the trick to the key card to activate deactivate the nuclear weapons......
during the conversation Baker never mentioned it and really could have saved Solid Snake a lot of time
Ocelot knew Liquid would lose his cool over his "superior" (but not really) twin being on Shadow Moses, messing up his concentration and ultimately dying. Even if Snake was killed, it's fine because Liquid would succumb to FoxDie.
All Ocelot needed was the disc that he stole from Snake.
Everything was planned, except for Solid Snake surviving...
That was a factor that wasn't really considered.
That, I feel, best parallels MGS2 with Snake once again disrupting the set plan.
All of this culminates in MGS4 where Snake is considered as a part of the plan and, finally, Ocelot succeeds in removing Zero's system.
I don't think Raven was suppose to tell Snake what he did. I think he did that out of his own volition.
@@Siberianhusky89 I definitely think that's the case. Raven's form of showing respect for Snake
same
Maybe foxhound members don't trust each other, so some of them know and just hiding it, than they just used solid snake to avoid the risk of killing each other, I remember liquid said to solid that he let him survive until the end, but he said also that solid was send to make contact with foxhound members and kill them with foxdie.
Well made video!
Everything happened in shadow mosses is just a foot note story carefully orchestrated by Bigboss from the very start Ocelot is there to make sure of that master plan and the plan who wins between the superior liquid snake and inferior solid snake, everything is but a masterfully crafted simulation by the bigboss naked snake himself behind the courtains. If you know how Kojima mind works this is the exact scenario fitted with their story.
3:27 liquid snake says that the confrontation was fake. It says in the speech that he gave us
Just few points. First , "If your attack goes well than you are walking into a trap" making it too easy would make it obvios. Second thing is baker gave hid code but Darpa Chief didn't so they would be forced to find a second way. Third point and I think this is important , pal key wasn't at their hand if we look at what happend it is easy to say Baker knew nothing about this system (he knew it existed but didn't knew details of how it worked) . Fourth point is simply making one card only way to activate and deactivate could be more practicle. Remember for most of Cold War nuclear launch code was a long line of 0's . Maybe they did system like that to make it quicker to activate as it is "the Ultimate Weapon" .
@@muratonuryilmaz5385 good points. But isn't it Baker's files that Otacon hacks to learn about the PAL trick? Surely that meant Baker knew
@@HotdogFontaine I realy don't remember who's data he hacked into but I take your word. But I have another question. Did they used Mantis's powers or just torture? Baker talked about torture but he should have anti Mantis mind protection but he is an old man with money , not an soldire that was trained to resist torture
@@muratonuryilmaz5385 yeah Baker was protected from Mantis but Ocelot LITTERALLY broke him. Poor guy.
@@HotdogFontaine you have a point on game having this hole in it. I think some points are not as good as others . Still a good video
@@muratonuryilmaz5385 appreciate it. Thanks for watching.
1:30 small detail, he reveals that psycho mantis can read his mind
Liquid wasted his Hind D for no reason.
He must miss all his shots at Solid.
Canonically he would need to miss every shot right?
Well it's pretty obvious why. Snake didn't even know who Liquid was. Also if you played the original MSX games, there was no dialogue between Snake and Big Boss revealing they were father and son. That was souly made for this game. Kojima thought it was genius, he'll retcon it in 4&5 twice.
I think they are all correct. Foxhound knows Snake has Foxdie. So they do want to kill him because otherwise they will die if Snake comes in close contsct with him. And they need him to activate Rex. Because they dont know how and I thi k Liquid likes the idea of Snake being responsible for activating a Metal Gear. This still doesnt answer why Ocelot shoots the key. Unless Ocelot wants snake not to activate it so the Patriots can steal the metal gear once fox die kills Liquid? But Metal Gear just stood in Shadow Moses in till MGS4 so I maybe Ocelot just wants to sabotage Liquid.
Can you explain why Snake was fooled by Liquid pretending to be Master Miller? I feel like he would’ve recognized his own face wearing sunglasses as well as the fact that Miller’s voice sounded off compared to how we know he actually sounds in Peace Walker and MGSV.
@@birdquest8695 good question. I think Snake just hadn't talked to him in a long time.
Soo You didn't like his..sunglasses 😎
You're not allowed to know that about ocarina of time. You're either Team PS or Team N64.
My question has always been why is the emergency shut down so damn awkward
Your telling me that if Rex was activated my accident and they needed to deactivate it some Technician is running round the base like snake did?
What are the odds there's a literal pool of lava within walking distance of the terminal
Why didn’t baker know how the key actually worked
I am under the impression that he did know. And so did the REAL Darpa Chief I would imagine.
He forgot
@@CherryColaWizard "Oh"
They were just trying to f him up, not kill him. Jesus bro, what would you do?
maybe it is worth to replay twin snakes, and amybe there is some kind of new info there to help explaining this? (just a guess)
I would like to replay Twin Snakes....
I feel like if they were to kill Snake, they could have just looted the PAL key from his body and activate Rex themselves. It's not like Snake was mandatory for the activation, he just happened to be useful to FoxHound
They didn't know how to use the key. As far as they were aware, there were also three keys with all of them being missing, only one being located when they captured Snake (or rather when Snake would have told Miller he got one). Sure, they could have looted the key from him but they'd still need to track down the other two keys somehow in a reasonably large base with no clue as to where and no one who might know willing to help them. So it was kind of a case of them needing Snake to figure it out (thanks to people like Otacon and Meryl (and his support team, can't remember off hand who figures out the card trick in the end) who might know more than they do) but if he did die then they could still potentially find the other two (actually nonexistent) keys, it just wasn't a guarantee. It was kind of a bizarre simultaneous win-win lose-lose situation for Fox Hound.
Great work!!
Thanks a lot!
If they weren't trying to kill Snake, the very least they could have done was turn of the electric floors. No way Snake would have went The floor's not trying to kill me, it must be a trap!"
I think liquid wanted to beat snake more than he wanted his plan to work. He knew they would all inevitably die to foxdie, but he went out of his way to keep trying to kill snake. He had 4 boss fights AND joined in mgs2. Also hes still crying about the inferior genes.
@@LiquidSuko Yeah I really like the idea that he was all in on killing Snake.
There was one line of dialogue from Vulcan Raven that kinda bothered me.
"Snakes don't belong in Alaska..." Does he not realize that their leader also have the code name of "Snake"? I'd like someone to explain that to me...
please do this to the other games in the series!!! pretty please?
@@MrAaron_ oh I have a lot to say about ALLL the games in the series :). Stick around.
@@HotdogFontaine subscribed
Something that bothered me is that Ocelot says "We can launch at any time" when they don't have the key, and when Snake and Otacon haven't figured out the trick about changing the temperature of the key (Right before he shoots the key off Snake's hand and it falls into the ditch). Why would he say that, when they were up crap creek without a paddle at that point?
Ocelot could see snake on the monitor that he was hiding round the corner eavesdropping
@@Slim-Braidy Yes, but he saw him after he notified Liquid about being able to launch.
MGS1 is a groundbreaking game that completely steered videogaming as a whole in a completely different direction, starting the cinematographication of gaming, for sure, but the plot has more holes than a swiss cheese, and it's downright ludicrous at times, like B Series ludicrous. It gets a pass because something called 'videogame logic' and because it's 15 year old content.
Hideo Kojima was just playing 5D Chess while writing the game's plot summary
@@JomasterTheSecond and this is one of the more straightforward ones!
MGS1 was perfect. The rest got stupid
MG1, MG2, MGS1, MGS2 and most of MGS3 were not stupid. MGS 3 did begin to get a few stupid elements creep in, mostly the abilities of all the bosses. MGS4 and MGSV had way too many stupid elements. You’re right that MGS1 was perfect though. No game will ever be as revolutionary in every aspect as that one was.
I was a child when this game appeared, and i had a demo on ps1, this game marked a canon event on my life, sad to realize that modern games are too much under unnecessary political pressure and forgotten minority rights that no one cares, ... bla bla bla everyone it's the tiny hat club ruining everything since time eternal ...
Thanks for spoiling Ocarina of Time. 😮That was unnecessary
I appreciated the spoiler warning but then you spoil a different game. 😢 (Yeah, yeah, it's an old game etc etc)
Those are some pretty interesting theories, and yeah it would make sense to ask questions like "Why didn't they just take the PAL Key and activate it themselves" But then again, detail on how to change the card wasn't exactly something they had easy access to, and it took Otacon to break into his files to find out how the key works. But then again through trial and error you could make a guessing assumption that you needed to freeze and heat the cards somehow to activate it.
I mean they do color code them in the computers lol. Wouldn't take long to figure out I'd think.