I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion, which is bringing out lots of memories for me. I was 36 on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. I was sitting in my cubicle in an office in Washington DC (not far from the Capitol), when I heard on the radio that a plane had hit one of the Twin Towers in New York. This was about 9:15 AM. At the time, I thought that it was probably a small, private plane that had struck the WTC by accident. (I recalled that several months earlier in NYC, a small plane piloted by a Yankees ballplayer taking flying lessons, had crashed into an apartment complex.) Between that time and 10 AM (when our staff received an e-mail from our boss telling us to LEAVE THE BUILDING ASAP), the flow of news increased exponentially. I heard on the radio that a helicopter had struck the Pentagon, that there was a fire at the White House where the President's staff there were being evacuated, the Capitol was also being evacuated. All of this was so bewildering to me. At 10 AM, I took the stairs from the 4th floor to ground level and went outside to catch a bus home. Everybody was in a mad frenzy. I don't think I had ever seen anything like it! I had my earphones tuned in to the local National Public Radio (NPR) station so that I could keep abreast of what was going on. I waited in vain for that bus for an hour. In that time, I learned of the collapse of the WTC, which was hard for me to take in at the time. But what ran through my mind as the enormity of this tragedy began to sink in was this refrain: "We brought this on ourselves. We brought this on ourselves." (I was then thinking of some of the foreign polices the U.S. had pursued post-1945 in which we had influenced elections in Italy and France during the late 1940s, and toppled governments in Iran and Guatemala.) Later, in the days after the September 11th attacks, people across the country would ask this question aloud: "Why do they hate us?" I thought at the time that that was not the question to ask, that it was a stupid question, because it presupposed that we, the U.S., was a wholly virtuous country that has never gotten things wrong. Anyway, I got home shortly after noon and turned on the TV. I watched the news (both national and local) for the rest of the day. I remember that in Washington DC there was a call for all military personnel in the area to "report to your duty stations." The last time such a call had been made in Washington DC was SUNDAY, DECEMBER 7th, 1941. There were also rumors that the city would be placed under martial law. There was this collective SHOCK that descended upon the country. It hung in the atmosphere for weeks and months. As I recall, people were afraid to go to clubs at night and tourism in Washington itself had taken a nose dive. Hotel occupancy rates in the city had decreased to 33%. Hotel staffs were being laid off. It would be 6 months before some measure of normalcy returned to everyday life. But nothing was ever the same again. All this constant talk in the press and among our political leaders of a "War on Terror." By September 2002, the drumbeat for a war with Iraq began. It sickened me that people then were already speaking as if we were already at war!!! The G.W. Bush administration was pushing for this war, and most of the press at the time was supportive of that. It was disgusting. I wondered then if I was the only one who was against the U.S. going to war with Iraq. I had a strong feeling that this push for war was a massive lie, that the administration was selling us a false bill of goods.
There is a straight line of impunity from Obama's decision not to prosecute fraudsters in the financial industry, to the recent vigilante assassination in New York City. Finance, Insurance and Real Estate are often considered one industry. Different finger of the hand, same glaring impunity.
Totally came for this! I think that 9/11 changed the superhero movie genre into making the stories bigger in scale than what they were before (e.g., Batman 1989, Blade 1999, Spider-Man 2002) by making the main threat cause the destruction of a New York like city as an unimaginable force. The first example of this change was in Transformers 2007, where Megatron as a foreign alien destroyed a city with giant metal robots and was stopped by militaristic force. Followed then by the first Avengers movie, which was more or less the same. These movies were big blockbusters because they let us live out our fantasies of holding back unimaginable evil through sheer will. However, none of my friends, family, or myself ever became hawkish militaristic Americans. The ones who I saw becoming problematic played games like CoD or Halo or loved the first Avatar movie. 9/11 did a lot, but comic book fans were going to get their movies. All that changed was the way the threat seemed scary. It's important to remember that comics have always mainly been progressive, and it's hard to divorce that when making films.
The original Spider-Man movie featuring Tobey Maguire came out in 2002 but was in production well before 911 ever happened. It was such a success that it demonstrated that superhero movies were viable, which then spurred marvel to be able to get the investment capital necessary to start their own studio a couple years later. The MCU absolutely would exist if 911 didn’t happen. I appreciate a lot of the commentary that this gentleman has to say, but he’s reaching on that one. Also, the avengers and other marvel characters are in constant conflict with centralized authority, and official state actors, as is the whole premise of Captain America, Civil War, and so they are not representations or stand ins of the modern military in any respect.if anything they would be in opposition to it. Tony Stark, a.k.a. Iron Man, even discontinues his weapons manufacturing. Which was his families legacy, and how they made their money, and instead turns to renewable energy as his flagship investment and business. Another theme that you will see in marvel movies is that they are very worldly and multicultural often times existing outside of the scope of the United States and it’s politics and focusing on either global threats or larger cosmic/multiversal threats. I particularly enjoyed in avengers age of Ultron when they went to Lagos in Nigeria, and gave representation to the fact that Africans have major modern cities, and don’t just live in dirt huts. I can imagine how many Americans were actually surprised to know that. I always appreciate their much more worldly scope. It should also be said that a common theme in the superhero genre is that governments aren’t always on the right side of conflicts, and that they represent special interests, self interest, and are usually not to be trusted. The heroes tend to be autonomous, and fight for a higher good, and the betterment of humankind, and are not blunt instruments to be utilized and dispatched by central governments. If we even want to go back as far as Christopher Reeves Superman, you’ll see a scene when the United States and the Soviet Union launched nukes at one another and he actually intercepted both and redirected them into the Sun. I’m pretty sure both governments were pissed about that, but it was higher good. I know it’s cool to hate on superhero movies, because they’ve come to the mainstream, but don’t forget they were fringe for years, and comic nerds heckled and teased and marginalized for years. Yet people still try to make it out like we’re the new jocks for some reason, because we’re having a moment in the sun for however long it lasts. A better example that he could’ve given is the way that video games are utilized as propaganda for the modern military and its high-tech specializations such as black ops and halo. but I just wanted to say that superhero movies are deeper than people give them credit for. And yeah, there’s obviously the heroes journey and the storytelling formula… But so too are romcoms formulaic, as are most movie and film genres. It is what it is. 🤷🏽 And if you’ve read this far, I want to thank you for taking the time to hear me out. 🦹🏽♀️🦹🏾♂️🖖
Totally came for this! I think that 9/11 changed the superhero movie genre into making the stories bigger in scale than what they were before (e.g., Batman 1989, Blade 1999, Spider-Man 2002) by making the main threat cause the destruction of a New York like city as an unimaginable force. The first example of this change was in Transformers 2007, where Megatron as a foreign alien destroyed a city with giant metal robots and was stopped by militaristic force. Followed then by the first Avengers movie, which was more or less the same. These movies were big blockbusters because they let us live out our fantasies of holding back unimaginable evil through sheer will. However, none of my friends, family, or myself ever became hawkish militaristic Americans. The ones who I saw becoming problematic played games like CoD or Halo or loved the first Avatar movie. 9/11 did a lot, but comic book fans were going to get their movies. All that changed was the way the threat seemed scary. It's important to remember that comics have always mainly been progressive, and it's hard to divorce that when making films.
Just as new medicines are tested on animals before being approved for humans, laws and policies are often first applied to marginalized groups in society. These groups usually lack the power to challenge such measures, which can lead to them being blamed for crime and economic problems. Ironically, the same laws initially aimed at these vulnerable populations can later be used against everyone, including those who supported them. This can result in the abuse of these laws against peaceful protesters, activists, journalists, and political opponents. This cycle demonstrates the risks of allowing discriminatory or racist laws to take hold, as they can ultimately threaten the rights of all citizens. It is crucial for society to remain vigilant against these practices and advocate for justice and equality for everyone.
Man great convo. Never thought of TDK as a case for breaking international law but it makes total sense. Also, Emma being 7 on 9-11 is more than a little startling for me personally (I was 11).
⏱️ Timestamps by TimeSkip ⏱️ 00:00:00 - Introduction with Richard Beck 00:03:10 - Impact of 9/11 on Millennial Politics 00:05:46 - Disappointment with Obama’s Presidency 00:12:45 - Cultural Shifts Post-9/11 00:14:21 - Militarization and Public Sentiment 00:20:03 - Police Militarization Post-9/11 00:22:20 - Cultural Impact of Comic Book Movies 00:25:52 - Evolution of Military Strategy 00:34:51 - Islamophobia and the War on Terror 00:36:42 - Racism in the War on Terror 00:40:07 - Post-911 Analogies 00:42:13 - Generational Perspectives on Palestine 00:45:11 - Understanding War for Oil 00:47:49 - Economic Context of Global Wars 00:50:29 - China's Role in Global Power Dynamics 00:54:08 - Wealth Disparity and Economic Growth 00:56:16 - Impunity Culture in Politics 01:00:20 - Accountability for Torture Programs 01:02:45 - Impunity Culture in Government 01:04:53 - Richard Beck's Insights on Terrorism
53:45 "We don't actually have a good answer to where does the next wave of economic growth come from". How about a good, old fashioned, American manufacturing boom.
Thank you for this interview. It was gratifying for how it identified and helped me name feelings I've had for most of my life. Then it became depressing and reawakened my disillusionment from spotlighting the emaciated form of our global civilization.
I turned 18 a few days before 9/11. I had predicted in 2000 that if W got elected that he would find someway to invade Iraq to one up his dad. When 9/11 happened I knew he had his chance.
wow this is a fantastic discussion. as someone who was born post 9/11, these connections between consumerism and 9/11 are fascinating. good stuff
I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion, which is bringing out lots of memories for me.
I was 36 on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. I was sitting in my cubicle in an office in Washington DC (not far from the Capitol), when I heard on the radio that a plane had hit one of the Twin Towers in New York. This was about 9:15 AM. At the time, I thought that it was probably a small, private plane that had struck the WTC by accident. (I recalled that several months earlier in NYC, a small plane piloted by a Yankees ballplayer taking flying lessons, had crashed into an apartment complex.)
Between that time and 10 AM (when our staff received an e-mail from our boss telling us to LEAVE THE BUILDING ASAP), the flow of news increased exponentially. I heard on the radio that a helicopter had struck the Pentagon, that there was a fire at the White House where the President's staff there were being evacuated, the Capitol was also being evacuated. All of this was so bewildering to me. At 10 AM, I took the stairs from the 4th floor to ground level and went outside to catch a bus home. Everybody was in a mad frenzy. I don't think I had ever seen anything like it! I had my earphones tuned in to the local National Public Radio (NPR) station so that I could keep abreast of what was going on.
I waited in vain for that bus for an hour. In that time, I learned of the collapse of the WTC, which was hard for me to take in at the time. But what ran through my mind as the enormity of this tragedy began to sink in was this refrain: "We brought this on ourselves. We brought this on ourselves." (I was then thinking of some of the foreign polices the U.S. had pursued post-1945 in which we had influenced elections in Italy and France during the late 1940s, and toppled governments in Iran and Guatemala.) Later, in the days after the September 11th attacks, people across the country would ask this question aloud: "Why do they hate us?" I thought at the time that that was not the question to ask, that it was a stupid question, because it presupposed that we, the U.S., was a wholly virtuous country that has never gotten things wrong.
Anyway, I got home shortly after noon and turned on the TV. I watched the news (both national and local) for the rest of the day. I remember that in Washington DC there was a call for all military personnel in the area to "report to your duty stations." The last time such a call had been made in Washington DC was SUNDAY, DECEMBER 7th, 1941. There were also rumors that the city would be placed under martial law.
There was this collective SHOCK that descended upon the country. It hung in the atmosphere for weeks and months. As I recall, people were afraid to go to clubs at night and tourism in Washington itself had taken a nose dive. Hotel occupancy rates in the city had decreased to 33%. Hotel staffs were being laid off. It would be 6 months before some measure of normalcy returned to everyday life. But nothing was ever the same again. All this constant talk in the press and among our political leaders of a "War on Terror."
By September 2002, the drumbeat for a war with Iraq began. It sickened me that people then were already speaking as if we were already at war!!! The G.W. Bush administration was pushing for this war, and most of the press at the time was supportive of that. It was disgusting. I wondered then if I was the only one who was against the U.S. going to war with Iraq. I had a strong feeling that this push for war was a massive lie, that the administration was selling us a false bill of goods.
What a great interview! One of the best ive seen on MR lately, kudos to Mr. Beck, of course Emma and Sam as well.
There is a straight line of impunity from Obama's decision not to prosecute fraudsters in the financial industry, to the recent vigilante assassination in New York City.
Finance, Insurance and Real Estate are often considered one industry.
Different finger of the hand, same glaring impunity.
Still haven’t fully recovered and I wasn’t even born yet
One of the best MR interviews I've heard, well done!
Same here. I'm ~30 minutes in and I don't want it to end!
Obama's failure will resonate for a century. I voted Third Party in 2012 + 2016 because of the bank bailouts.
Totally came for this! I think that 9/11 changed the superhero movie genre into making the stories bigger in scale than what they were before (e.g., Batman 1989, Blade 1999, Spider-Man 2002) by making the main threat cause the destruction of a New York like city as an unimaginable force. The first example of this change was in Transformers 2007, where Megatron as a foreign alien destroyed a city with giant metal robots and was stopped by militaristic force. Followed then by the first Avengers movie, which was more or less the same. These movies were big blockbusters because they let us live out our fantasies of holding back unimaginable evil through sheer will. However, none of my friends, family, or myself ever became hawkish militaristic Americans. The ones who I saw becoming problematic played games like CoD or Halo or loved the first Avatar movie. 9/11 did a lot, but comic book fans were going to get their movies. All that changed was the way the threat seemed scary. It's important to remember that comics have always mainly been progressive, and it's hard to divorce that when making films.
Damn, here so early it's just me and the bot. So this is what it feels like...
The Thin Red Line was also an anti-war film, not a callback to the greatest generation.
The original Spider-Man movie featuring Tobey Maguire came out in 2002 but was in production well before 911 ever happened. It was such a success that it demonstrated that superhero movies were viable, which then spurred marvel to be able to get the investment capital necessary to start their own studio a couple years later. The MCU absolutely would exist if 911 didn’t happen. I appreciate a lot of the commentary that this gentleman has to say, but he’s reaching on that one. Also, the avengers and other marvel characters are in constant conflict with centralized authority, and official state actors, as is the whole premise of Captain America, Civil War, and so they are not representations or stand ins of the modern military in any respect.if anything they would be in opposition to it. Tony Stark, a.k.a. Iron Man, even discontinues his weapons manufacturing. Which was his families legacy, and how they made their money, and instead turns to renewable energy as his flagship investment and business.
Another theme that you will see in marvel movies is that they are very worldly and multicultural often times existing outside of the scope of the United States and it’s politics and focusing on either global threats or larger cosmic/multiversal threats. I particularly enjoyed in avengers age of Ultron when they went to Lagos in Nigeria, and gave representation to the fact that Africans have major modern cities, and don’t just live in dirt huts. I can imagine how many Americans were actually surprised to know that. I always appreciate their much more worldly scope.
It should also be said that a common theme in the superhero genre is that governments aren’t always on the right side of conflicts, and that they represent special interests, self interest, and are usually not to be trusted. The heroes tend to be autonomous, and fight for a higher good, and the betterment of humankind, and are not blunt instruments to be utilized and dispatched by central governments.
If we even want to go back as far as Christopher Reeves Superman, you’ll see a scene when the United States and the Soviet Union launched nukes at one another and he actually intercepted both and redirected them into the Sun. I’m pretty sure both governments were pissed about that, but it was higher good.
I know it’s cool to hate on superhero movies, because they’ve come to the mainstream, but don’t forget they were fringe for years, and comic nerds heckled and teased and marginalized for years. Yet people still try to make it out like we’re the new jocks for some reason, because we’re having a moment in the sun for however long it lasts. A better example that he could’ve given is the way that video games are utilized as propaganda for the modern military and its high-tech specializations such as black ops and halo.
but I just wanted to say that superhero movies are deeper than people give them credit for. And yeah, there’s obviously the heroes journey and the storytelling formula… But so too are romcoms formulaic, as are most movie and film genres. It is what it is. 🤷🏽
And if you’ve read this far, I want to thank you for taking the time to hear me out. 🦹🏽♀️🦹🏾♂️🖖
Totally came for this! I think that 9/11 changed the superhero movie genre into making the stories bigger in scale than what they were before (e.g., Batman 1989, Blade 1999, Spider-Man 2002) by making the main threat cause the destruction of a New York like city as an unimaginable force. The first example of this change was in Transformers 2007, where Megatron as a foreign alien destroyed a city with giant metal robots and was stopped by militaristic force. Followed then by the first Avengers movie, which was more or less the same. These movies were big blockbusters because they let us live out our fantasies of holding back unimaginable evil through sheer will. However, none of my friends, family, or myself ever became hawkish militaristic Americans. The ones who I saw becoming problematic played games like CoD or Halo or loved the first Avatar movie. 9/11 did a lot, but comic book fans were going to get their movies. All that changed was the way the threat seemed scary. It's important to remember that comics have always mainly been progressive, and it's hard to divorce that when making films.
I was 14, like the author, when 9/11 happened.
I also finished Beck's book; I reccommend it.
Incredible conversation, lots of things to learn here about how the business world views the future
Loved this segment.
I too, remember things in a chronological order.
Just as new medicines are tested on animals before being approved for humans, laws and policies are often first applied to marginalized groups in society. These groups usually lack the power to challenge such measures, which can lead to them being blamed for crime and economic problems. Ironically, the same laws initially aimed at these vulnerable populations can later be used against everyone, including those who supported them. This can result in the abuse of these laws against peaceful protesters, activists, journalists, and political opponents. This cycle demonstrates the risks of allowing discriminatory or racist laws to take hold, as they can ultimately threaten the rights of all citizens. It is crucial for society to remain vigilant against these practices and advocate for justice and equality for everyone.
Man great convo. Never thought of TDK as a case for breaking international law but it makes total sense. Also, Emma being 7 on 9-11 is more than a little startling for me personally (I was 11).
⏱️ Timestamps by TimeSkip ⏱️
00:00:00 - Introduction with Richard Beck
00:03:10 - Impact of 9/11 on Millennial Politics
00:05:46 - Disappointment with Obama’s Presidency
00:12:45 - Cultural Shifts Post-9/11
00:14:21 - Militarization and Public Sentiment
00:20:03 - Police Militarization Post-9/11
00:22:20 - Cultural Impact of Comic Book Movies
00:25:52 - Evolution of Military Strategy
00:34:51 - Islamophobia and the War on Terror
00:36:42 - Racism in the War on Terror
00:40:07 - Post-911 Analogies
00:42:13 - Generational Perspectives on Palestine
00:45:11 - Understanding War for Oil
00:47:49 - Economic Context of Global Wars
00:50:29 - China's Role in Global Power Dynamics
00:54:08 - Wealth Disparity and Economic Growth
00:56:16 - Impunity Culture in Politics
01:00:20 - Accountability for Torture Programs
01:02:45 - Impunity Culture in Government
01:04:53 - Richard Beck's Insights on Terrorism
Bleeding Edge is a very good book about the culture and energies around 9/11
53:45 "We don't actually have a good answer to where does the next wave of economic growth come from". How about a good, old fashioned, American manufacturing boom.
Thank you for this interview. It was gratifying for how it identified and helped me name feelings I've had for most of my life. Then it became depressing and reawakened my disillusionment from spotlighting the emaciated form of our global civilization.
I turned 18 a few days before 9/11. I had predicted in 2000 that if W got elected that he would find someway to invade Iraq to one up his dad. When 9/11 happened I knew he had his chance.
Team America actually says this.
Obviously Sam has not seen The Thin Red Line, because it was not a pro-war film by any stretch.
TIL Emma is younger than me by a few years.
I didn’t exist I was born the January afterwards
Imagine being pregnant during 9/11😳
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