When I was a kid, Danish airforce was equipped with Saab 35 Draken, and Lockheed F- 104 Starfighter. They both still have a warm place in my heart. Btw. Back then they were still allowed to break the sound barrier over land.
I lived less than a mile from Canadair when I was a kid in the 60s. These flew over my house on a regular basis. Terrific video, which brings back lots of memories.
Thank You for this gem of video on one of my old and most loved aircraft. The teary eyes are well worth it. I served as a IET 551 from 1979 to 99. Although I closed out my career in Naval Air as an AVN tech due to amalgamation, a highlight of both my personal and professional life was the 3 years I spent in Baden from 84 to 87. We lived like Kings. In the spring of 83 I'd completed what would come to be the last 104 IET course at 10 FTTU. As an electrician in Snags of 1AMS in Baden, I was there with this immortal plane up to it's final moment of mass launch as the bulk of the remnants of The Red Indians and Silver Foxes, flew off to Turkey. I was honoured during this last era to strap in "Judge" Wenham, one of 104 aviation histories top test pilots. Of casual note; a great reason to have a few beers would be during night ops as you pulled out your lawnchairs at the north end of the runway off the perimeter road in front of Spy hill. There we would go gaga as the pilots hit their AB's, drenching us with the lovely warm lead exhaust. But thankfully never to warm to spoil our German Beer.
@@polyus_studiosIndeed. Your video spoke of them being overhauled in Germany before going. MBB ( Messerschmidt Bolkow Blohm) did the 3rd line maintenance on the 104's while stationed in Germany. Perhaps the aircraft did have mod's done there in preparation for their transfer. I don't know. I could speculate further on this subject due to activity taking place in the week prior as the Turkish Aircraft Technicians were on base to get some familiarity with us. There is a post I put up in response to a person talking about a ex Turkish/Canadian 104 at Markham. As for unleaded vs leaded gas....well, it was just an expression of course. It was in the genre of "I like the smell of Napalm in the Morning" from Apocalypse Now.
Awesome channel! My Dad was a civilian contractor to the CAF from 1969-1980 involved in air-frame maintenance and modification so I grew up around these wonderful aircraft. Please do a video on the CF-5, it has a special place in my Dad's heart still to this day.
@@polyus_studios Most of the still-flying (in private hands) Starfighters are CF-104s, which is definitely a tribute to Canadair's quality of work in building them (ditto for the Italian-built F-104S aircraft, some of which are still flown by private owners).
David Ramsay Was that the actualy wording? Could be. I do not know. I have seen several variants. Like “Buy a piece of land and wait.” But a good one! 😆
Part of that was the ground mapping radar was on the same frequencies of FM radio stations (or was that microwave communications?) Fly too close to a tower and entire flights would 'control flight into terrain'. Took them awhile to figure that out.
Synystr7 If it wasnt for this channel i would never have known Canadair developed some amazing VTOL craft too. I thought only the 100 and the Avro. We had SO MUCH GOIJG FOR US in aviation and the govt just murdered it all.
@@edgarjohns6559 You've bought into the myth... The prior Liberal government under their famous defence minister CD Howe, had made the decision to shut it down but they were going to announce it after the election so as to not hurt their prospects. When Diefenbaker's Conservatives took over, they initially supported the plane but soon came to realize, like the Liberals, that its intended mission was made obsolete by the coming ICBM's which could be built much more cheaply than the waves of Russian bombers this thing was intended to shoot down with nuclear tipped missiles. It took them a further 11 months before they finally bit the bullet and made the tough (but correct) call to shut it down and stop the bleeding. It would have eaten up the ENTIRE Canadian defence budget. Of course, once in opposition, the Liberals changed their tune and decried the Conservatives for doing what they had already decided to do themselves. Politics hasn't changed a bit.
When I was stationed in Northern Michigan with the USAF in the early 80's I helped recover many CF-104's coming down out of Canada. One of our maintainers working around the jet didn't duck low enough to clear the leading edge of the wing and gashed his forehead open pretty bad. Enjoyed seeing this birds...
As a dependant living in Lahr, I remember them well, especially when they would scramble the aircraft during exercises. Thanks so much for the video.👍❤️🇨🇦.
Grew up at bases in Baden Soelingen and Lahr because dad was a member of CAF. I remember kids in my school whose dads died flying the 104. We kids called them widow makers, because they killed our moms husbands.......dads. Our schools were on the base and the 104s would break sound barrier all week... sonic boom rattled school windows. Big grins on our faces, we were military "brats" and proud of it.
Great summary of the Cold War era with focus on an incredible aircraft. Brings back fond memories as a technician working in Cold Lake & Baden. One minor point, in the RCAF/CAF we simply call our Sqns by their numbers, 427, 441, 439 etc. We do not use the American terminology such as four hundred and twenty seventh.....
I was stationed on CFB Baden. 81-83. Cold War I. The base was half infantry. We called those noisy bastards lots of names. Flying coffins and widow maker among the politest ones. Conversation killers!! 20-30 times a day during exercises😒 Enjoying your videos. You have earned my subscription 👍
I know a pilot who flew the CF-104 with Tiger Squadron in Germany. He told me there were some French ATCs that disliked english speakers flying in their airspace, especially military. On one of their night training flights, a French ATC gave him a vector that would have him flying into a mountain. He requested confirmation, and got the same answer. He replied "I have radar navigation, and know what you are doing, and also know where YOU are. Be aware I am ARMED! Please reconfirm vector". He quickly got a correct heading.
Had it happened today, the Atco would have been suspended and demoted and the F-104 pilot would have been reprimanded "for using non standard phraseology on the frequency". Then, both the whole Air Traffic Control staff and the whole Squadron would go to a mandatory refreshing course full of BS and provided by a woman. Modern society stinks.
Great truth indeed of the real game. I've made a number of posts already on this video. I find I am running into former associates/running buddies. Even looking at your name, I believe you may have been one of our snr nco's in Baden. But I could be mistaken. Regards French/Anglo animosity; we all had our memories of foreign service personal at the Canex or trips down to Baden Oos and the French Base. Additionally, I made a post to a fella that was a kid in Marveille. Gave him the "scorched earth" version of that base closure, as passed down to us from our elder Chief's. Salute.
Great video. Noticed a couple error though: The 104 was capable of mach 2.2. All aircraft returning from overhaul were taken on mach 2 flights at Cold Lake for proving. The 1.5 number is a misprint or for some sort of loaded configuration or maybe a sea-level number not really sure where that is from. Lahr was not closed in 1970. It remained as a Canadian base with transport squadrons.
@@polyus_studios Actually, it wasn't the compressor blades that were the speed limit on the 104, it was the fibreglass shrouds around the air intakes... they'd melt at speeds much above M2. There was a Canadian CF-104 that set altitude and speed records (still standing for Canadian aircraft) and it was modified to have stainless steel intakes (and a few other things). If you are making an update, I have a list of things that you should fix: - Baden Soelligen is pronounced "Baden SOLE ENG EN" but most everyone just called it Baden Baden after the big city. - Grostenquin is pronounced "Grow Ton (like Don) Quin" - Zweibruken is pronounced "Svzwhy Brook En" - At 15:32 you said 1962, but meant 1972 - As Mike Pearson said, they never planned for one way mission on the nuclear attack role... but they did recognize that it was unlikely that the base would be there on their return so had plans to land elsewhere if necessary... not to bail out. - The Canadian 104's used the Martin Baker ejection seats. The early German and US 104's used the Lockheed C1 seat which fired downwards. Most were retrofitted to C2 seats that fired upwards. - As you noted, 104 pilots never called it the Widow Maker and hated that name for it. They usually just called it the One Oh Four. Great video... you should also see if you can find some footage of the sound of the 104... it had a very distinctive Bull Moose roar that everyone who ever heard a 104 would never forget. There is a good TH-cam video of an old CF-104 being restored to flight in Norway that has this. Brings back great memories from my time in Baden Baden.
And the number he gave, 1,844 kph, should be Mach 1.7 at the altitudes the F104 reaches its max speed. In the last decade, suddenly people completely forgot that the speed of sound decreases at higher altitudes. Its a error the kept being repeated ad nauseam and some even get stubborn about it.
Thank you for giving me so much information here. My sister left home in 1959 to join the RCAF. Her memorabilia includes a cup from her time at Metz. She was in Baden Solingen and Lars. ( forgive my spelling if I have misnamed the bases) She loved Metz and Baden. Your explanation of the movements of these bases followed her career in Europe. I never knew she was at the pointy end of the stick.
I heard that in America the design for the 104 was the result of a request for an air superiority fighter, not an interceptor. It looks exactly like what you'd think an interceptor would look like, but the thought was the zoom and boom tactic would win the day. As you point out, the interceptor era was passing with the development of icbms, and so that supports the idea that the 104 was meant as an air superiority fighter. But I've not heard anyone say that it was developed as a ground attack aircraft.
My father worked at Canadair during the period of the development of the Starfighters as an illustrator. I remember as a child seeing his wonderful artwork and renderings of the Starfighters used in promotion and technical publications.
Nice video. Only one minor error; none of the Norwegian CF’s went to Turkey. Norway acquired 19 single seat and 3 duals. The duals, 632, 633 and 637 were all mk1. Single seats were; 717, 730, 755, 759, 766, 797, 800, 801, 818, 833, 836, 850, 860, 870, 882, 886, 889, 890, 900. We lost 797, 833, 860 and 900.
The majority of 104 airframe losses and pilot deaths were due to the highly inappropriate selection of the Starfighter for low altitude flight and ground strike missions. This aircraft set many time-to-climb records and high altitude records at well beyond 100,000 feet. It was a case of tool mis-use, like driving screws with a hammer but with far more potential for disaster. Budgetary concerns and committees form a strange brew with decisions based on non-logical criteria. It is an iconic aircraft, beautiful and sexy with an unearned reputation of deadly danger. It makes the fighters of today look like robots... which they mostly are.
Dad was a 104 IP at Luke AFB in the 60's (with a year as a FAC in Vietnam). He absolutely loved the Zipper! When asked which was his favorite a/c, he said it was a toss up between the F-86 or the F-104. He loved the 86, because it was the l
The Canadian 104 was originally a nuclear strike A/C, the bomb toss computer was designed to lob a nuclear weapon while putting the A/C on a reciprocal heading to outrun the blast shockwave. I worked on 104s in Germany in the 80s. It was a Mach 2 A/C. I worked on some of the A/C shown in this video. I saw one return after a bird strike with evergreen boughs stuck between the body and intake, when the pilot wrote up the bird strike he was asked if he hit it in the nest!
I've just found this video. Like yourself I was in Germany too. 84 to 87. I have been making posts on different threads I too had many memories flash back as I looked upon this video. I found it personally heartbreaking to see the 439 bird in it's Tiger scheme. The last I recall of this aircraft was seeing it out off the hardstands sitting in grassy button left to weather as an ABDR bird. It could have been a different tail number, but you know what I mean. Additionally your not kidding about the birdstrikes. All to frequent. Your's is a classic one for sure. I made my own birdstrike post in response to a fella's observation. Salute.
Great video - thanks for posting. To those of you too young to remember the 104, they put on a show that was unforgettable. Fast, loud, & smokey - awesome, beautiful machine.
What was the top speed of the CF-104 INTERCEPTOR? We have one at the legion in Innisfail, Alberta, a town 10 miles south of the now decommissioned CFB PENHOLD an old airforce base. It looks like it's made with tin foil, but I'm told its top speed was MACK 1.5 twice the speed of sound or approximately 1400 miles/hour. It seems unbelievable that such an aircraft made with such thin metal according to my ignorant eyes could go that fast!
@@davidweum In 1958, a F-104 set the world speed record of 1404mph (Mach 2.12). Canadian Starfighters had a maximum speed of about Mach 1.7 - roughly 1140mph/990kts. The 75ST alloy skin betrays the structure within. Here's a cutaway: conceptbunny.com/lockheed-f-104-starfighter/
So, I've been searching TH-cam for a month now for documentaries on Canadian Military, especially the air force. Neither this channel, or any of the videos came up. But this video just showed up in my recommended a month after I stopped actively searching. Good job YT algorithm. Look forward to watching your documentaries.
Good trip down memory lane but a few errors. The ‘104G’s max speed was Mach 2.0+ not 1.5 as stated. As well, I was in the nuclear strike role for two years before we went ‘conventional’ and I never saw (or heard of) a ‘one way mission’. Granted, one always wondered whether the departure airport would still be there upon the return but the mission was always planned with a landing somewhere - NOT a bailout. But as I said, good piece. Mike
mike pearson I DONT LIKE politicians at the best of times, especially now when they collude with the Libs to shutdown govt. while still punishing citizens with zero oversight new laws and legislation while "shut down". But I like retired politician Laurie Hawn (sp?)... while he still had held his riding's seat, & who I met and got to know some of his 104 RCAF service . His disciplined military service changed my mind about HIM specifically, not other politicians
Spectacular video! Well made good sir, this not only teaches you about the amazing architecture of classic Canadian airplanes, but also shows how they work! Amazing 😉
I got to see one of these take off with full afterburner parked next to the runway in Lahr Germany. As a 8 year old in 1972 it made a lasting impression!!
You may enjoy my post I just put-up. I was a tech in Baden from 1984 to 87. My 2nd son was the 1st Canadian born in Germany (Lahr) on Jan1st 1986. I gave him the middle name "Amadeus"
Great documentary! When I was 5 or 6 (1970 or 71), one of my Dad's good friends flew over our house at speed in a 104 and I happened to be outside to see it. I was enthralled and have been a Starfighter fan ever since.
While the RNAF presented pilot Hans van der Werf in a spectacular solo display in the F-104, the Canadian Armed Forces in Europe came up with three or four F-104's performing simultanously and on low level during RIAT at Greenham Common.
Did you work on the CF-104 INTERCEPTOR? If so, can you confirm its top speed? I heard MACK 1.5 or around 1400 miles/hour. We have one on the grounds of our legion in Innisfail 10 miles south of the now devimmisioned CFB PENHOLD. I'm asking because it doesn't look like it could take a speed like that without flying apart! David Weum Innisfail, Ab.
The U.S. version set several world speed and altitude records. Top speed depends on the height you are flying. At higher altitudes, you go faster in the thin air. Rarely did the Canadian CF-104 break the sound barrier. The"big wigs" frowned on it.
@@RockyAllenLane I just recieved a comment from a guy who worked on CF-104 INTERCEPTORS who said that in 1958 that jet flew mach 1.5 or 1400 miles/hour. We have one on displayed at our legion grounds in Innisfail, Alberta. (We have a long since decommissioned airforce base 10 miles north of here, CFB PENHOLD (where the CCP/PLA are currently training - I'm not making this up). The airstrip ran 12 miles. When they were digging into the ground to put in the fencing for the prison BOWDEN INSTITUTION, they had to pull up all the old airforce scrap. But, my main query was how that jet could handle that speed with what I thought was made out of metal a little thicker than tin foil. (I'm exaggerating of course, but it doesn't seem to be built for that speed). Maybe the brass didn't know about the mach 1.5 experiment in 1958.
What a fantastic video. Informative and accurate, with minor errors (CFB Lahr wasn't closed until 1993 or so). But I believe that Canadian Forces Europe maintained CF 104s at Lahr until 1986 or so. (in diminishing numbers). Thank you for posting this!
I made my own post to this video. Do have a read in reference to my feedback here, as I was tech in Baden during the final phase of the 104. On your statement about 104's in Lahr, I will clarify the fact's for you. The 104's at that time were only based in Baden. But every "Starfighter" (war games/Nato Exercise), 441 sqn would deploy and operate out of Lahr for the duration. As a Snags tech in 1AMS, we would be pooled out between 421 and 441, so some exercises I'd head down the Autobahn and work out of Lahr. Your observation and assumption of 104's operating out of Lahr can thus be seen as correct to a degree. If you changed your ….(in diminishing numbers) to ["just not all the time" or in military terms, "Lahr was a permanent 104 TD base"] TD meaning Temporary Duty....Your statement would be fully correct. Thank You.
@@tiamatxvxianash9202 Having watched the 104s on their screaming approaches from my home at Offenburg in the 1970ies into Lahr, this clarifies a lot. I had the most magnificent flight display of the whole inventory flying into Lahr from my window, including the 707 which was always fascinating.
👍 Very interesting video. I learned a lot about RCAF/CAF history and the CF-104. Had no idea so many CF-104s were made, remained in service for so long or ended up with other air forces. The accident rate of 43% is horrendous yet not surprising, given the way the aircraft was operated. Sad that so many pilots died serving their country and NATO.
The Northrop N-156 (or the F-5, the armed variant of the T-38 Talon) actually did eventually make it into Canadian service as the CF-5 Freedom Fighter.
I've seen that ex-Turkish cf-104 at 18:18 in real life many times at Markham airport, Ontario. I couldn't understand at the time why there was a Turkish fighter at the airport as all of the other old jets there had Canadian markings. Now I know how Canadian that jet really is and how important it was! Thanks for the great video.
I made my own post to this video. Do have a read as I was a tech in Baden during the 104's final era, including the final mass launch to Turkey. Wow, I had no idea there was one of teh Turkish planes back in Canada. Additionally of note for you on your post. In the weeks prior to the big fly off, the Turkish technicians were on base getting some basic familiarity training on our aircraft from us. Yet it was a real waste of time for hardly any of them spoke English. They were dressed as for parade, and by the 2nd or 3rd day they mostly all just hung out in the Canteen. But the beers did flow too, as all they wanted to do was share their Turkish cigarettes and smile.
@@polyus_studios I agree, although I do find what the DND decided to keep/remove/add to the baseline F/A-18 Hornet quite interesting. Such as the tailhook, fake cockpit colour scheme etc. If you want more Canadian aviation id suggest looking into our northern bushplanes, like the DHC-2 Beaver. Its quite amazing what those pilots had to live through, because when you captain a bushplane you are not only fighting to upkeep the plane, but you are also fighting the environment.
Whew flashbacks lol to my time in Cold Lake - arrived at 417 Sqn in 1981 for my first posting as a brand new Weapons Tech and was in awe of this airplane! Thanks so much for the research and sharing the info!
@@polyus_studios It was a transition period. The CF-101, CF-5, CF-100 and CF-104's were being phased out and the CF-188 being phased in. Couple that with Maple Flag exercises every year bringing in aircraft from all over the world, it was tres cool.
Yes I have a photo somewhere of the first CF-18 with the first Canadian pilots flying with a McDonnell Douglas pilot. The McDonnell Douglas pilot was dressed an orange flight-suit and a gloss black helmet adorned with a gold visor like the Blue Angels!
@@PaulScott_ Such memories. I have a photo inside the cockpit of the first one delivered to AETE. I probably was not supposed to do that, but I was in high school at the time and this was a huge thrill for me.
I just made a post. Do check it out. Additionally.....Chances are good we have stumbled across each other at some point in our histories; the "O"club in Borden or even "Shanks" I went through 10 FTTU in Spring 83. Maple flag was just getting going when I finished and went back to Shearwater. I took my F18 course in April 86. As your a Weapon Tech, you'll understand this one. During the exhausting Starfighter excercises we went through all cordoned up in our HAS's, a favorite sleeping place that some of us would fight over was the "Cluster Bomb" racks. It's canvas cover was like a hammock as it drooped between the bombs. But if a weapon tech ever showed up, there could be hell to pay. Cheers.
Brilliant! L & S! You talked about the nuclear roll at the start and towards the end you talk about the CA 104 not having any air to air defenses. They did however carry the AIR 2 Genie. A-A nuclear missile. 1.5kt un-guided. LoL. Thanks for the vid!
Still don’t understand why we can’t build our own interdiction planes our selves . Modern computers would make a lot of these jets incredibly safe , new engines would increase speed dramatically . Even if we started with F-23 or F-35 runner up blueprints we could build our own .
Because designing, building, and testing a jet fighter costs hundreds of billions of dollars and decades of experience. Remember, it doesn't just need to fly properly when everything is working okay, it also needs to fly properly when the sky is full of bullets and the wings are shot full of holes. Also, now that the Cold War is over, the Canadian military isn't being subsidized by the United States anymore.
My dad and his team at Canadian General Electric designed the fire control system for the CF104, the infrared gunsights and the nuclear bomb toss computer. His friend donated a computer to CWH - he purchased it at a surplus store in downtown a Toronto. It was an analogue computer that initiated a 45 degree pitch up leading to the release of the bomb at the apogee of the arc. The plane would roll over and escape while the bomb continued in a free fall trajectory. The system was eventually removed and replaced with fixed ballast to preserve the centre of gravity. The same tech was used in the F15, however it became a small PCI card and not a large aluminum box with gears and solenoids as what my dads team had produced.
Excellent video, and an awesome photo at 21:06. My father was a aeroengine maintenance tech in the RCAF/CAF and he always called the CF-104 the Widowmaker.
@John Snyder But it was capable of Mach 2 and would turn, the Arrow's death was political, the 104 only got one of those right. Had the RCAF got their s#!t together on a fire control system and missiles, it could have been a credible multi role aircraft, and also been the basis of a home grown aircraft industry in it's future generations.
@John Snyder "All those high speed deltas went the way of the dodo bird." The F-102 and F-106 were in service for years, the 106 until 1988. As a high speed, high altitude interceptor (or tactical bomber as the German airforce was contemplating it) it was unmatched by anything in service even 30 years after its cancellation. Since the Voodoo's, originally rejected by the RCAF, were in service for rather more than 10 years, your comment is simply wrong.
the first wave of the Normandy invasion had a huge group of Canadians (I read someplace a third of the manpower the other two thirds were Brits and US. however second, third waves and follow on were mostly US), in the 1950s Canada was third in aerospace. Even these days where they are still a relatively small population but I think they still maintain a very capable military.
Great work ! very interesting . The germany CF base was a nice touch , very cool to see as my father and familly were dispath there at the end of the 80' and early 90' at Baden. I was 5 yrs old. brings back old memories.
I had a summer job in the late sixties working at Chatham N.B. air base upgrading landing lights and remember watching them take off and land - very cool place to work for a few weeks.
i'm literally 6 mins into this video and just subscribed, i can already see the production value and content being absolutely fantastic. hope to see much more content
Pretty sure there was only one Pinocchio which is now sitting static in Cold Lake. When I was a kid we were fortunate (?) in being able to ride on it from Cold Lake to Calgary as it had been relegated to a role of local transport in the late 70's early 80s. My dad was still RCAF and back then you could be on standby on flights hopping around the country.
For a ground attack platform, it's sad that the F-105 with Orenda Iroquois combination never flew. As much as I love the Starfighter, the Thud was the best attach platform of the '60s.
Always loved this plane and built the models by HobbyCraft as a kid in the 1960's. Later versions of the plastic model had an amazing chrome finish on them making them look quite realistic.
Thank you for an informative and thought provoking video @Polyus - very interesting to place into context the Starfighters appalling record with the German air-force. Though to be frank this was the wrong plane for the needed motion parameters (no matter how much they crept) and illustrates the skill of the RCAF to achieve what they did with sub par platforms.
What? Canada had the bomb!!! News to those who did not know, 1989 was the last time the bomb was finally removed from Canada, as I remember, being one of the army guards on the convoy!
Many NATO (non nuclear) nations were allocated US nuclear weapons, even Germany. The UK and France had (and still do) their own independent nuclear weapons.
I remember watching them in 1979 at the Cold Lake (or Primrose Lake) Air Weapons Range. When they go supersonic over your head you will crap your selves. When they go Vertical with afterburners you will know what sh*ting yourself relay is.
Great video! We too in The Portuguese Air Force had numerous accidents with the A-7 and these cannot be attributed to a single cause. As with the F-104, we had every cause, from flying into terrain to birdstrikes, loss of control, engine failure, midair collisions, oxygen deprivation, etc. Any attack mission is inherently very dangerous and often the aircraft ends up receiving undeserved blame, like the A-7 in Portugal and the F-104 worldwide. The Starfighter was, of course, a much more unforgiving aircraft. It's very interesting to note how these "widow making" aircraft are actually very cherished among those who fly them.
That was a plane that looked like it was going fast even when it was chocked on the ground. Missile with a man in it was an apt description, certainly more flattering than it's other moniker, the widowmaker.
Once again a fascinating video on Canada's interesting aviation history Can we have a documentary on the Avro Arrow please? Greetings from Australia 🇦🇺🇨🇦
6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1
One thing is for sure, in the 1960s nobody messed with Canada
I love your videos, The effort you put into getting footage of the subject of your piece and the time spent putting your script together really shows in the final product!
I could go on for hours how stupid and was it was to cancel the Arrow but this is a Starfighter video. The F104 was an awesome fighter. Not many people are aware of the fact that the improved version of the F104 actually beat the great F15 Eagle in most all respects during the competition and fly off that eventually led to the American Aid Force choosing the F15. Supposedly the generals were bowled over and wowed by the different science fiction like bells and whistles that McDonnell Douglas promised with the F15 like a then space and pilots helmet that put the tactical display on the pilots visor even allowing him to lock and fire on target just by looking at them in other words the same kind of systems American aircraft are just now being equipped with. May competitors accused MD of knowing full well they could never deliver this and the other buck Rogers tech but the Air Force chose the eagle anyway. The starfighter definitely out maneuvered the eagle and bested it again and again in ACM of various types. The only black mark against the F104 was it's terrible early crash and fatality rates. These were the days before two seat trainer versions of high performance aircraft and many pilots going to the Starfighter were coming from aircraft that were far less powerful and unforgiving. They would give the a aircraft pilots manual, test them on cockpit familiarization then turn them loose, this is also one of the main reasons more American pilots were killed in training than in combat in world war two. There pilots fresh from flight school with only a hundred or so hours of flying a trainer with a couple hundred horsepower of experience given a Manuel then turned loose in a two thousand plus horsepower fighter. If they lived through that they were sent into combat. The F104 was one of the fighters that finally drove home the need for two seat trainer versions. When the dual seat control Starfighters started entering service the death and accident rates went down to modern levels but by then the damage had been done and the Starfighter was stuck with a terrible reputation, similar to the excellent B26 Marauder in World War Two.
Right supposedly in Germany that was exacerbated by them being forbidden to fly for 17 years after the war. So they had a lot of novice pilots trained from scratch hopping into this hot rod.
Exactly right - both. Amazing how many ignorant posters here believe everything the media said about it. It was a very good jet and became the basis for much of both the Lockheed U2 and the SR-71. Kelly Johnson did a great job with it.
The Canadians were experts at using the wrong equipment in the rolls that they never were designed to do . The 104 was a classic example of this and got a lot of good aviators killed .
Excellent channel, a very informative and interesting look at the legacy of the Canadian armed forces from a historical perspective. Keep up the great work.
Wow I just stumbled across your videos from the recommended of the darkskies channel and I have to say they're top notch. Great to have a Canadian focus aviation channel, also great footage alot that I haven't seen before.
Interesting video. I would like to add that in 1 CAG the CF-104 didn't go out of service from 1982. Replacement with the CF-188 Hornet at Baden-Söllingen started only in 1985. The Turkish Air Force (THK) only received their first CF-104s in 1986. www.916-starfighter.de/CAF%20in%20Europa.htm
Actually, if you were talking about the nuclear strike ground attack, it was quite good in this role as it was very fast down low and could get the heck out of dodge to put the airburst on it's tail... it couldn't turn well but it was VERY good in the vertical and those who knew how to take advantage of it could wax the then current generation air superiority fighters like the Phantom or the Mirage (or the Mig 21). Regular ground attack, not so much.
@@steveburton5825 - I was thinking of its general role - hadn't thought of that particular mission. Do you recall BAC, as it then was, selling Lightning interceptors to Saudi Arabia as a multi-role fighter ? That must have been a hell of a sales pitch !
RCAF squadrons were known as FOUR-THREE-NINE never FOUR THIRTY-NINE. etc. Wings were originally No. 1 (F) Wing or No. 1 (Fighter) Wing. The F was dropped after the with-drawl of the Sabre and CF-100 'Clunk'. (Clunk for the sound of the nose gear retracting).
Just Imagine Flying the CF-104G in the 60s having to fly low fast as you have no Aim-9B or 20mm Vulcan just your skill and speed as defense against enemy fighters
When I was a kid, Danish airforce was equipped with Saab 35 Draken, and Lockheed F-
104 Starfighter.
They both still have a warm place in my heart.
Btw. Back then they were still allowed to break the sound barrier over land.
I lived less than a mile from Canadair when I was a kid in the 60s. These flew over my house on a regular basis. Terrific video, which brings back lots of memories.
Thank You for this gem of video on one of my old and most loved aircraft. The teary eyes are well worth it. I served as a IET 551 from 1979 to 99. Although I closed out my career in Naval Air as an AVN tech due to amalgamation, a highlight of both my personal and professional life was the 3 years I spent in Baden from 84 to 87. We lived like Kings. In the spring of 83 I'd completed what would come to be the last 104 IET course at 10 FTTU. As an electrician in Snags of 1AMS in Baden, I was there with this immortal plane up to it's final moment of mass launch as the bulk of the remnants of The Red Indians and Silver Foxes, flew off to Turkey. I was honoured during this last era to strap in "Judge" Wenham, one of 104 aviation histories top test pilots. Of casual note; a great reason to have a few beers would be during night ops as you pulled out your lawnchairs at the north end of the runway off the perimeter road in front of Spy hill. There we would go gaga as the pilots hit their AB's, drenching us with the lovely warm lead exhaust. But thankfully never to warm to spoil our German Beer.
@@polyus_studiosIndeed. Your video spoke of them being overhauled in Germany before going. MBB ( Messerschmidt Bolkow Blohm) did the 3rd line maintenance on the 104's while stationed in Germany. Perhaps the aircraft did have mod's done there in preparation for their transfer. I don't know. I could speculate further on this subject due to activity taking place in the week prior as the Turkish Aircraft Technicians were on base to get some familiarity with us. There is a post I put up in response to a person talking about a ex Turkish/Canadian 104 at Markham. As for unleaded vs leaded gas....well, it was just an expression of course. It was in the genre of "I like the smell of Napalm in the Morning" from Apocalypse Now.
Awesome channel! My Dad was a civilian contractor to the CAF from 1969-1980 involved in air-frame maintenance and modification so I grew up around these wonderful aircraft. Please do a video on the CF-5, it has a special place in my Dad's heart still to this day.
Very well done... production quality is top notch!
@@polyus_studios Most of the still-flying (in private hands) Starfighters are CF-104s, which is definitely a tribute to Canadair's quality of work in building them (ditto for the Italian-built F-104S aircraft, some of which are still flown by private owners).
@20:40 The Germans had a joke about the CF-104.
Q - "How do you catch a Starfighter?"
A - "Plant a garden and wait."
David Ramsay Was that the actualy wording? Could be. I do not know. I have seen several variants. Like “Buy a piece of land and wait.” But a good one! 😆
With a mig 21 Or A Swedish Draken
Variant of buying a farm but it's the pilot who foots the bill.
@@Karl-Benny Wasn't Sweden polishing Adolphs boots in first half of the 40s?,I believe Russia was too before we gave them OUR PLANES&War supplies!.
Part of that was the ground mapping radar was on the same frequencies of FM radio stations (or was that microwave communications?)
Fly too close to a tower and entire flights would 'control flight into terrain'.
Took them awhile to figure that out.
Man... look at that big ole Canadair factory. And all those jobs.
Synystr7 If it wasnt for this channel i would never have known Canadair developed some amazing VTOL craft too. I thought only the 100 and the Avro. We had SO MUCH GOIJG FOR US in aviation and the govt just murdered it all.
We are richer as a country then ever, but for some reason seem to have no money to put people to work.
WE LOST IT ALL THANKS TO THAT ASSHOLE DIEFENBAKER
@@edgarjohns6559 You've bought into the myth... The prior Liberal government under their famous defence minister CD Howe, had made the decision to shut it down but they were going to announce it after the election so as to not hurt their prospects. When Diefenbaker's Conservatives took over, they initially supported the plane but soon came to realize, like the Liberals, that its intended mission was made obsolete by the coming ICBM's which could be built much more cheaply than the waves of Russian bombers this thing was intended to shoot down with nuclear tipped missiles. It took them a further 11 months before they finally bit the bullet and made the tough (but correct) call to shut it down and stop the bleeding. It would have eaten up the ENTIRE Canadian defence budget. Of course, once in opposition, the Liberals changed their tune and decried the Conservatives for doing what they had already decided to do themselves. Politics hasn't changed a bit.
Diefenbaker killed it PERIOD
When I was stationed in Northern Michigan with the USAF in the early 80's I helped recover many CF-104's coming down out of Canada. One of our maintainers working around the jet didn't duck low enough to clear the leading edge of the wing and gashed his forehead open pretty bad. Enjoyed seeing this birds...
As a dependant living in Lahr, I remember them well, especially when they would scramble the aircraft during exercises. Thanks so much for the video.👍❤️🇨🇦.
Grew up at bases in Baden Soelingen and Lahr because dad was a member of CAF. I remember kids in my school whose dads died flying the 104. We kids called them widow makers, because they killed our moms husbands.......dads. Our schools were on the base and the 104s would break sound barrier all week... sonic boom rattled school windows. Big grins on our faces, we were military "brats" and proud of it.
Great summary of the Cold War era with focus on an incredible aircraft. Brings back fond memories as a technician working in Cold Lake & Baden. One minor point, in the RCAF/CAF we simply call our Sqns by their numbers, 427, 441, 439 etc. We do not use the American terminology such as four hundred and twenty seventh.....
@@polyus_studios No worries, minor detail. Most people won't know the difference.
This channel should be way more popular! Looking forward to a video on the cl-13 Sabre!
Yah no rush, your doing great!
Your channel is a absolute gem, thanks again for teaching about Canada's too often forgotten aviation history!
I was stationed on CFB Baden. 81-83. Cold War I.
The base was half infantry.
We called those noisy bastards lots of names.
Flying coffins and widow maker among the politest ones.
Conversation killers!!
20-30 times a day during exercises😒
Enjoying your videos. You have earned my subscription 👍
I know a pilot who flew the CF-104 with Tiger Squadron in Germany. He told me there were some French ATCs that disliked english speakers flying in their airspace, especially military. On one of their night training flights, a French ATC gave him a vector that would have him flying into a mountain. He requested confirmation, and got the same answer. He replied "I have radar navigation, and know what you are doing, and also know where YOU are. Be aware I am ARMED! Please reconfirm vector". He quickly got a correct heading.
Had it happened today, the Atco would have been suspended and demoted and the F-104 pilot would have been reprimanded "for using non standard phraseology on the frequency". Then, both the whole Air Traffic Control staff and the whole Squadron would go to a mandatory refreshing course full of BS and provided by a woman. Modern society stinks.
Great truth indeed of the real game. I've made a number of posts already on this video. I find I am running into former associates/running buddies. Even looking at your name, I believe you may have been one of our snr nco's in Baden. But I could be mistaken. Regards French/Anglo animosity; we all had our memories of foreign service personal at the Canex or trips down to Baden Oos and the French Base. Additionally, I made a post to a fella that was a kid in Marveille. Gave him the "scorched earth" version of that base closure, as passed down to us from our elder Chief's. Salute.
@@duartesimoes508 Provided by a woman lol so true and yes modern society blows
clueless@@duartesimoes508
Suggestion: do a video on the Canadair Argus - and it’s role in the Cuban missile crisis.
Amazing content worthy of being displayed in aviation museums.
Great video. Noticed a couple error though:
The 104 was capable of mach 2.2. All aircraft returning from overhaul were taken on mach 2 flights at Cold Lake for proving. The 1.5 number is a misprint or for some sort of loaded configuration or maybe a sea-level number not really sure where that is from.
Lahr was not closed in 1970. It remained as a Canadian base with transport squadrons.
@@polyus_studios Actually, it wasn't the compressor blades that were the speed limit on the 104, it was the fibreglass shrouds around the air intakes... they'd melt at speeds much above M2. There was a Canadian CF-104 that set altitude and speed records (still standing for Canadian aircraft) and it was modified to have stainless steel intakes (and a few other things). If you are making an update, I have a list of things that you should fix:
- Baden Soelligen is pronounced "Baden SOLE ENG EN" but most everyone just called it Baden Baden after the big city.
- Grostenquin is pronounced "Grow Ton (like Don) Quin"
- Zweibruken is pronounced "Svzwhy Brook En"
- At 15:32 you said 1962, but meant 1972
- As Mike Pearson said, they never planned for one way mission on the nuclear attack role... but they did recognize that it was unlikely that the base would be there on their return so had plans to land elsewhere if necessary... not to bail out.
- The Canadian 104's used the Martin Baker ejection seats. The early German and US 104's used the Lockheed C1 seat which fired downwards. Most were retrofitted to C2 seats that fired upwards.
- As you noted, 104 pilots never called it the Widow Maker and hated that name for it. They usually just called it the One Oh Four.
Great video... you should also see if you can find some footage of the sound of the 104... it had a very distinctive Bull Moose roar that everyone who ever heard a 104 would never forget. There is a good TH-cam video of an old CF-104 being restored to flight in Norway that has this. Brings back great memories from my time in Baden Baden.
And the number he gave, 1,844 kph, should be Mach 1.7 at the altitudes the F104 reaches its max speed. In the last decade, suddenly people completely forgot that the speed of sound decreases at higher altitudes. Its a error the kept being repeated ad nauseam and some even get stubborn about it.
Thank you for giving me so much information here. My sister left home in 1959 to join the RCAF. Her memorabilia includes a cup from her time at Metz. She was in Baden Solingen and Lars. ( forgive my spelling if I have misnamed the bases)
She loved Metz and Baden. Your explanation of the movements of these bases followed her career in Europe. I never knew she was at the pointy end of the stick.
Once again another great upload, thank you.
Bravo Sir...👏
I heard that in America the design for the 104 was the result of a request for an air superiority fighter, not an interceptor. It looks exactly like what you'd think an interceptor would look like, but the thought was the zoom and boom tactic would win the day. As you point out, the interceptor era was passing with the development of icbms, and so that supports the idea that the 104 was meant as an air superiority fighter. But I've not heard anyone say that it was developed as a ground attack aircraft.
The era of the interceptor was not passing at that moment, MIG25 and F14 are all interceptors developed in the 70s.
My father worked at Canadair during the period of the development of the Starfighters as an illustrator. I remember as a child seeing his wonderful artwork and renderings of the Starfighters used in promotion and technical publications.
Nice video. Only one minor error; none of the Norwegian CF’s went to Turkey. Norway
acquired 19 single seat and 3 duals. The duals, 632, 633 and 637 were all mk1. Single seats were; 717, 730, 755, 759, 766, 797, 800, 801, 818, 833, 836, 850, 860, 870, 882, 886, 889, 890, 900.
We lost 797, 833, 860 and 900.
Awesome plane: simply beautiful lines, a very fast 'hot rod', and ultimately, and very unforgiving fighter jet. Iconic, and rightly so.
The majority of 104 airframe losses and pilot deaths were due to the highly inappropriate selection of the Starfighter for low altitude flight and ground strike missions. This aircraft set many time-to-climb records and high altitude records at well beyond 100,000 feet. It was a case of tool mis-use, like driving screws with a hammer but with far more potential for disaster. Budgetary concerns and committees form a strange brew with decisions based on non-logical criteria. It is an iconic aircraft, beautiful and sexy with an unearned reputation of deadly danger. It makes the fighters of today look like robots... which they mostly are.
Dad was a 104 IP at Luke AFB in the 60's (with a year as a FAC in Vietnam). He absolutely loved the Zipper! When asked which was his favorite a/c, he said it was a toss up between the F-86 or the F-104. He loved the 86, because it was the l
The Canadian 104 was originally a nuclear strike A/C, the bomb toss computer was designed to lob a nuclear weapon while putting the A/C on a reciprocal heading to outrun the blast shockwave. I worked on 104s in Germany in the 80s. It was a Mach 2 A/C. I worked on some of the A/C shown in this video. I saw one return after a bird strike with evergreen boughs stuck between the body and intake, when the pilot wrote up the bird strike he was asked if he hit it in the nest!
I've just found this video. Like yourself I was in Germany too. 84 to 87. I have been making posts on different threads I too had many memories flash back as I looked upon this video. I found it personally heartbreaking to see the 439 bird in it's Tiger scheme. The last I recall of this aircraft was seeing it out off the hardstands sitting in grassy button left to weather as an ABDR bird. It could have been a different tail number, but you know what I mean. Additionally your not kidding about the birdstrikes. All to frequent. Your's is a classic one for sure. I made my own birdstrike post in response to a fella's observation. Salute.
A great video. Glad I found your channel.it is a relief that you are not using the computer voice for narration. Keep up the excellent work.
Great video - thanks for posting.
To those of you too young to remember the 104, they put on a show that was unforgettable. Fast, loud, & smokey - awesome, beautiful machine.
What was the top speed of the CF-104 INTERCEPTOR? We have one at the legion in Innisfail, Alberta, a town 10 miles south of the now decommissioned CFB PENHOLD an old airforce base. It looks like it's made with tin foil, but I'm told its top speed was MACK 1.5 twice the speed of sound or approximately 1400 miles/hour. It seems unbelievable that such an aircraft made with such thin metal according to my ignorant eyes could go that fast!
@@davidweum
In 1958, a F-104 set the world speed record of 1404mph (Mach 2.12).
Canadian Starfighters had a maximum speed of about Mach 1.7 - roughly 1140mph/990kts.
The 75ST alloy skin betrays the structure within. Here's a cutaway:
conceptbunny.com/lockheed-f-104-starfighter/
So, I've been searching TH-cam for a month now for documentaries on Canadian Military, especially the air force. Neither this channel, or any of the videos came up. But this video just showed up in my recommended a month after I stopped actively searching. Good job YT algorithm.
Look forward to watching your documentaries.
Good trip down memory lane but a few errors. The ‘104G’s max speed was Mach 2.0+ not 1.5 as stated. As well, I was in the nuclear strike role for two years before we went ‘conventional’ and I never saw (or heard of) a ‘one way mission’. Granted, one always wondered whether the departure airport would still be there upon the return but the mission was always planned with a landing somewhere - NOT a bailout.
But as I said, good piece.
Mike
mike pearson I DONT LIKE politicians at the best of times, especially now when they collude with the Libs to shutdown govt. while still punishing citizens with zero oversight new laws and legislation while "shut down".
But I like retired politician Laurie Hawn (sp?)... while he still had held his riding's seat, & who I met and got to know some of his 104 RCAF service . His disciplined military service changed my mind about HIM specifically, not other politicians
You were likely one of the pilots that buzzed our school in Soest Germany (Fort Chambley) Scared the shit out of us....hahaha.
Spectacular video! Well made good sir, this not only teaches you about the amazing architecture of classic Canadian airplanes, but also shows how they work! Amazing 😉
I got to see one of these take off with full afterburner parked next to the runway in Lahr Germany. As a 8 year old in 1972 it made a lasting impression!!
You may enjoy my post I just put-up. I was a tech in Baden from 1984 to 87. My 2nd son was the 1st Canadian born in Germany (Lahr) on Jan1st 1986. I gave him the middle name "Amadeus"
great history lesson on this fighter and its service with Canada.
Great documentary! When I was 5 or 6 (1970 or 71), one of my Dad's good friends flew over our house at speed in a 104 and I happened to be outside to see it. I was enthralled and have been a Starfighter fan ever since.
A perfect compliment to a cup of coffee during a study break.
Nicely done, Brad. I enjoyed the spectacular display by the CF-104's during RIAT in the seventies and eighties very much.
While the RNAF presented pilot Hans van der Werf in a spectacular solo display in the F-104, the Canadian Armed Forces in Europe came up with three or four F-104's performing simultanously and on low level during RIAT at Greenham Common.
Love the Aussie RAAF Mirages at 2:22
Proudly served at 6 OTU from 1963 to 1966 working on the CF-104.
Did you work on the CF-104 INTERCEPTOR? If so, can you confirm its top speed? I heard MACK 1.5 or around 1400 miles/hour.
We have one on the grounds of our legion in Innisfail 10 miles south of the now devimmisioned CFB PENHOLD.
I'm asking because it doesn't look like it could take a speed like that without flying apart!
David Weum
Innisfail, Ab.
The U.S. version set several world speed and altitude records. Top speed depends on the height you are flying. At higher altitudes, you go faster in the thin air. Rarely did the Canadian CF-104 break the sound barrier. The"big wigs" frowned on it.
@@RockyAllenLane
I just recieved a comment from a guy who worked on CF-104 INTERCEPTORS who said that in 1958 that jet flew mach 1.5 or 1400 miles/hour.
We have one on displayed at our legion grounds in Innisfail, Alberta.
(We have a long since decommissioned airforce base 10 miles north of here, CFB PENHOLD (where the CCP/PLA are currently training - I'm not making this up).
The airstrip ran 12 miles. When they were digging into the ground to put in the fencing for the prison BOWDEN INSTITUTION, they had to pull up all the old airforce scrap.
But, my main query was how that jet could handle that speed with what I thought was made out of metal a little thicker than tin foil. (I'm exaggerating of course, but it doesn't seem to be built for that speed). Maybe the brass didn't know about the mach 1.5 experiment in 1958.
Open up Wikipedia and type in Lockheed F-104 Starfighter. All you need to know is there ... click on Records.
What a fantastic video. Informative and accurate, with minor errors (CFB Lahr wasn't closed until 1993 or so). But I believe that Canadian Forces Europe maintained CF 104s at Lahr until 1986 or so. (in diminishing numbers).
Thank you for posting this!
@@polyus_studios I look forward to it! I think you did a fantastic job!
I made my own post to this video. Do have a read in reference to my feedback here, as I was tech in Baden during the final phase of the 104. On your statement about 104's in Lahr, I will clarify the fact's for you. The 104's at that time were only based in Baden. But every "Starfighter" (war games/Nato Exercise), 441 sqn would deploy and operate out of Lahr for the duration. As a Snags tech in 1AMS, we would be pooled out between 421 and 441, so some exercises I'd head down the Autobahn and work out of Lahr. Your observation and assumption of 104's operating out of Lahr can thus be seen as correct to a degree. If you changed your ….(in diminishing numbers) to ["just not all the time" or in military terms, "Lahr was a permanent 104 TD base"] TD meaning Temporary Duty....Your statement would be fully correct. Thank You.
@@tiamatxvxianash9202 Having watched the 104s on their screaming approaches from my home at Offenburg in the 1970ies into Lahr, this clarifies a lot. I had the most magnificent flight display of the whole inventory flying into Lahr from my window, including the 707 which was always fascinating.
👍 Very interesting video. I learned a lot about RCAF/CAF history and the CF-104. Had no idea so many CF-104s were made, remained in service for so long or ended up with other air forces. The accident rate of 43% is horrendous yet not surprising, given the way the aircraft was operated. Sad that so many pilots died serving their country and NATO.
The Canadian CF-104 paint scheme of white wings and natural metal fuselage has always been one of my favorites. Thanks for another great video.
The Northrop N-156 (or the F-5, the armed variant of the T-38 Talon) actually did eventually make it into Canadian service as the CF-5 Freedom Fighter.
@15:37: "Dressed to kill" with 5 x BL755 cluster bombs, M-61 cannon, and 2 jugs of gas.
I've seen that ex-Turkish cf-104 at 18:18 in real life many times at Markham airport, Ontario. I couldn't understand at the time why there was a Turkish fighter at the airport as all of the other old jets there had Canadian markings. Now I know how Canadian that jet really is and how important it was! Thanks for the great video.
I made my own post to this video. Do have a read as I was a tech in Baden during the 104's final era, including the final mass launch to Turkey. Wow, I had no idea there was one of teh Turkish planes back in Canada. Additionally of note for you on your post. In the weeks prior to the big fly off, the Turkish technicians were on base getting some basic familiarity training on our aircraft from us. Yet it was a real waste of time for hardly any of them spoke English. They were dressed as for parade, and by the 2nd or 3rd day they mostly all just hung out in the Canteen. But the beers did flow too, as all they wanted to do was share their Turkish cigarettes and smile.
love to see one on the CF-188! Great work, from a proud Canadian.
@@polyus_studios I agree, although I do find what the DND decided to keep/remove/add to the baseline F/A-18 Hornet quite interesting. Such as the tailhook, fake cockpit colour scheme etc. If you want more Canadian aviation id suggest looking into our northern bushplanes, like the DHC-2 Beaver. Its quite amazing what those pilots had to live through, because when you captain a bushplane you are not only fighting to upkeep the plane, but you are also fighting the environment.
@@99hockeynhl
They didn't remove the hook.
Whew flashbacks lol to my time in Cold Lake - arrived at 417 Sqn in 1981 for my first posting as a brand new Weapons Tech and was in awe of this airplane! Thanks so much for the research and sharing the info!
P Scott. I was also in Cold Lake in 1981. It was a very impressive plane to see flying overhead.
@@polyus_studios It was a transition period. The CF-101, CF-5, CF-100 and CF-104's were being phased out and the CF-188 being phased in. Couple that with Maple Flag exercises every year bringing in aircraft from all over the world, it was tres cool.
Yes I have a photo somewhere of the first CF-18 with the first Canadian pilots flying with a McDonnell Douglas pilot. The McDonnell Douglas pilot was dressed an orange flight-suit and a gloss black helmet adorned with a gold visor like the Blue Angels!
@@PaulScott_ Such memories. I have a photo inside the cockpit of the first one delivered to AETE. I probably was not supposed to do that, but I was in high school at the time and this was a huge thrill for me.
I just made a post. Do check it out. Additionally.....Chances are good we have stumbled across each other at some point in our histories; the "O"club in Borden or even "Shanks"
I went through 10 FTTU in Spring 83. Maple flag was just getting going when I finished and went back to Shearwater. I took my F18 course in April 86. As your a Weapon Tech, you'll understand this one. During the exhausting Starfighter excercises we went through all cordoned up in our HAS's, a favorite sleeping place that some of us would fight over was the "Cluster Bomb" racks. It's canvas cover was like a hammock as it drooped between the bombs. But if a weapon tech ever showed up, there could be hell to pay. Cheers.
Brilliant! L & S!
You talked about the nuclear roll at the start and towards the end you talk
about the CA 104 not having any air to air defenses. They did however carry the AIR 2 Genie. A-A nuclear missile. 1.5kt un-guided. LoL.
Thanks for the vid!
funny that this was recommended to me as i recently was given the flight stick to one CF-104. It's surprisingly very heavy for what it is
Great video! I am just about to put out a build series on the CF-104.... Good to see homage paid to the RCAF past.
Still don’t understand why we can’t build our own interdiction planes our selves . Modern computers would make a lot of these jets incredibly safe , new engines would increase speed dramatically . Even if we started with F-23 or F-35 runner up blueprints we could build our own .
Because designing, building, and testing a jet fighter costs hundreds of billions of dollars and decades of experience. Remember, it doesn't just need to fly properly when everything is working okay, it also needs to fly properly when the sky is full of bullets and the wings are shot full of holes. Also, now that the Cold War is over, the Canadian military isn't being subsidized by the United States anymore.
#murica that’s why.
You should do a video on the Avro C102 Jetliner.
Keep up the great work 👍
As much attention as the Arrow gets, I believe that the end of the Jetliner was a much bigger blow to Canadian aviation,
My dad and his team at Canadian General Electric designed the fire control system for the CF104, the infrared gunsights and the nuclear bomb toss computer. His friend donated a computer to CWH - he purchased it at a surplus store in downtown a Toronto. It was an analogue computer that initiated a 45 degree pitch up leading to the release of the bomb at the apogee of the arc. The plane would roll over and escape while the bomb continued in a free fall trajectory. The system was eventually removed and replaced with fixed ballast to preserve the centre of gravity. The same tech was used in the F15, however it became a small PCI card and not a large aluminum box with gears and solenoids as what my dads team had produced.
Excellent video, and an awesome photo at 21:06.
My father was a aeroengine maintenance tech in the RCAF/CAF and he always called the CF-104 the Widowmaker.
Imagine the Swagger the pilots would have in an Avro Arrow
John Snyder don't tell that to the other V wings
@John Snyder But it was capable of Mach 2 and would turn, the Arrow's death was political, the 104 only got one of those right. Had the RCAF got their s#!t together on a fire control system and missiles, it could have been a credible multi role aircraft, and also been the basis of a home grown aircraft industry in it's future generations.
It’s STILL *The best Jet in the world, 2x better than the F-35*
@John Snyder "All those high speed deltas went the way of the dodo bird." The F-102 and F-106 were in service for years, the 106 until 1988. As a high speed, high altitude interceptor (or tactical bomber as the German airforce was contemplating it) it was unmatched by anything in service even 30 years after its cancellation. Since the Voodoo's, originally rejected by the RCAF, were in service for rather more than 10 years, your comment is simply wrong.
I didn't know Canada had bases in Europe after the war .great video!
@@polyus_studios I didn't know that's crazy!
Following the war, Canada had the fourth-largest air force in the world, after US, UK, and USSR. Sadly, not so now....
@@intercommerce ... and the 3rd navy.
Yep, the last one closed the same year I joined...
the first wave of the Normandy invasion had a huge group of Canadians (I read someplace a third of the manpower the other two thirds were Brits and US. however second, third waves and follow on were mostly US), in the 1950s Canada was third in aerospace. Even these days where they are still a relatively small population but I think they still maintain a very capable military.
Great work ! very interesting . The germany CF base was a nice touch , very cool to see as my father and familly were dispath there at the end of the 80' and early 90' at Baden. I was 5 yrs old. brings back old memories.
I had a summer job in the late sixties working at Chatham N.B. air base upgrading landing lights and remember watching them take off and land - very cool place to work for a few weeks.
Exceptional documentary! Following!
It's a testament to the Lockheed graft machine that they were able to sell the F104 as a low level strike fighter to so many countries.
It did help that they bribed them.
Therefore it must also be a testament to Canadian corruption.
i'm literally 6 mins into this video and just subscribed, i can already see the production value and content being absolutely fantastic. hope to see much more content
Very glad I’ve found this channel, excellent production quality and great information!
Pretty sure there was only one Pinocchio which is now sitting static in Cold Lake. When I was a kid we were fortunate (?) in being able to ride on it from Cold Lake to Calgary as it had been relegated to a role of local transport in the late 70's early 80s. My dad was still RCAF and back then you could be on standby on flights hopping around the country.
For a ground attack platform, it's sad that the F-105 with Orenda Iroquois combination never flew. As much as I love the Starfighter, the Thud was the best attach platform of the '60s.
Always loved this plane and built the models by HobbyCraft as a kid in the 1960's. Later versions of the plastic model had an amazing chrome finish on them making them look quite realistic.
I know the cf-18 isn’t quite ready to join the ranks of fighters of Canada’s past, but I am dying for a video on it!
Who is this wonder of 🇨🇦 history with the calm voice and calm music.??
@@polyus_studios
Calgary Alberta Canada??
Home of the never ending construction that bridge on Crowchild Trail??
PS.
Your videos are superb.
What a great time for military aviation. 1954-1990, a period we will never see repeated again. I dare say 1959-1979 is the real era of excitement.
This guy taught my 8th grade science class
Thank you for an informative and thought provoking video @Polyus - very interesting to place into context the Starfighters appalling record with the German air-force. Though to be frank this was the wrong plane for the needed motion parameters (no matter how much they crept) and illustrates the skill of the RCAF to achieve what they did with sub par platforms.
The Starfighter was a high speed, high altitude, stripped down hot rod. Accident rates were predictably high. Pilots loved them.
Experienced pilots you mean - no post-mortem reviews considered.
What? Canada had the bomb!!! News to those who did not know, 1989 was the last time the bomb was finally removed from Canada, as I remember, being one of the army guards on the convoy!
So did South Africa and gave up on nuclear capabilities by Mandella.
Many NATO (non nuclear) nations were allocated US nuclear weapons, even Germany. The UK and France had (and still do) their own independent nuclear weapons.
Thank you so much! Doing a model of this and was looking for references. Wow! Complete, succinct, and very professional. Thanks again.
I remember watching them in 1979 at the Cold Lake (or Primrose Lake) Air Weapons Range. When they go supersonic over your head you will crap your selves. When they go Vertical with afterburners you will know what sh*ting yourself relay is.
Great video!
We too in The Portuguese Air Force had numerous accidents with the A-7 and these cannot be attributed to a single cause. As with the F-104, we had every cause, from flying into terrain to birdstrikes, loss of control, engine failure, midair collisions, oxygen deprivation, etc. Any attack mission is inherently very dangerous and often the aircraft ends up receiving undeserved blame, like the A-7 in Portugal and the F-104 worldwide. The Starfighter was, of course, a much more unforgiving aircraft. It's very interesting to note how these "widow making" aircraft are actually very cherished among those who fly them.
This is really excellent. Looking forward to you making a video about the Voodoo.
That was a plane that looked like it was going fast even when it was chocked on the ground. Missile with a man in it was an apt description, certainly more flattering than it's other moniker, the widowmaker.
Once again a fascinating video on Canada's interesting aviation history
Can we have a documentary on the Avro Arrow please?
Greetings from Australia 🇦🇺🇨🇦
One thing is for sure, in the 1960s nobody messed with Canada
The first fighter I saw up close was the cf104 at an airshow in Cape Breton.
I love your videos, The effort you put into getting footage of the subject of your piece and the time spent putting your script together really shows in the final product!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I could go on for hours how stupid and was it was to cancel the Arrow but this is a Starfighter video. The F104 was an awesome fighter. Not many people are aware of the fact that the improved version of the F104 actually beat the great F15 Eagle in most all respects during the competition and fly off that eventually led to the American Aid Force choosing the F15. Supposedly the generals were bowled over and wowed by the different science fiction like bells and whistles that McDonnell Douglas promised with the F15 like a then space and pilots helmet that put the tactical display on the pilots visor even allowing him to lock and fire on target just by looking at them in other words the same kind of systems American aircraft are just now being equipped with. May competitors accused MD of knowing full well they could never deliver this and the other buck Rogers tech but the Air Force chose the eagle anyway. The starfighter definitely out maneuvered the eagle and bested it again and again in ACM of various types.
The only black mark against the F104 was it's terrible early crash and fatality rates. These were the days before two seat trainer versions of high performance aircraft and many pilots going to the Starfighter were coming from aircraft that were far less powerful and unforgiving. They would give the a aircraft pilots manual, test them on cockpit familiarization then turn them loose, this is also one of the main reasons more American pilots were killed in training than in combat in world war two. There pilots fresh from flight school with only a hundred or so hours of flying a trainer with a couple hundred horsepower of experience given a Manuel then turned loose in a two thousand plus horsepower fighter. If they lived through that they were sent into combat.
The F104 was one of the fighters that finally drove home the need for two seat trainer versions. When the dual seat control Starfighters started entering service the death and accident rates went down to modern levels but by then the damage had been done and the Starfighter was stuck with a terrible reputation, similar to the excellent B26 Marauder in World War Two.
Right supposedly in Germany that was exacerbated by them being forbidden to fly for 17 years after the war. So they had a lot of novice pilots trained from scratch hopping into this hot rod.
Exactly right - both. Amazing how many ignorant posters here believe everything the media said about it. It was a very good jet and became the basis for much of both the Lockheed U2 and the SR-71. Kelly Johnson did a great job with it.
Dave Bashaw put out a most excellent book on the Starfighter in Canadian service.
Tons of great photos and stories, as he was a pilot at the time.
The Canadians were experts at using the wrong equipment in the rolls that they never were designed to do . The 104 was a classic example of this and got a lot of good aviators killed .
Excellent channel, a very informative and interesting look at the legacy of the Canadian armed forces from a historical perspective.
Keep up the great work.
Very well done! Please keep up the good work and will subscribe Thanks !
Wow I just stumbled across your videos from the recommended of the darkskies channel and I have to say they're top notch. Great to have a Canadian focus aviation channel, also great footage alot that I haven't seen before.
Great video on the CF-104. Thanks a lot for also covering content on the bases and squadrons in EU.
430th is now a tactical helicopter squadron in Valcartier. which at one point had fighter aircraft stationed there, but not anymore
Interesting video. I would like to add that in 1 CAG the CF-104 didn't go out of service from 1982. Replacement with the CF-188 Hornet at Baden-Söllingen started only in 1985. The Turkish Air Force (THK) only received their first CF-104s in 1986. www.916-starfighter.de/CAF%20in%20Europa.htm
Low level strike missions. lol One couldn't design a worse plane for ground attack, unless it was the X-15, or maybe the Apollo Lunar Lander.
Absolutely useless aircraft
Actually, if you were talking about the nuclear strike ground attack, it was quite good in this role as it was very fast down low and could get the heck out of dodge to put the airburst on it's tail... it couldn't turn well but it was VERY good in the vertical and those who knew how to take advantage of it could wax the then current generation air superiority fighters like the Phantom or the Mirage (or the Mig 21). Regular ground attack, not so much.
@@steveburton5825 - I was thinking of its general role - hadn't thought of that particular mission. Do you recall BAC, as it then was, selling Lightning interceptors to Saudi Arabia as a multi-role fighter ? That must have been a hell of a sales pitch !
RCAF squadrons were known as FOUR-THREE-NINE never FOUR THIRTY-NINE. etc. Wings were originally No. 1 (F) Wing or No. 1 (Fighter) Wing. The F was dropped after the with-drawl of the Sabre and CF-100 'Clunk'. (Clunk for the sound of the nose gear retracting).
104 was a very sad consolation prize after the Americans buried the Avro Arrow ....i grew up in CFB Cold Lake 1974-1999
Just Imagine Flying the CF-104G in the 60s having to fly low fast as you have no Aim-9B or 20mm Vulcan just your skill and speed as defense against enemy fighters
Excellent video. Thanks for making this.
LOL "Aluminium Death Tube" LOL..I like that one
Super underrated channel
great work!
Now the RCAF is waiting for CF-18 replacements from Australia, as our planes have flown well beyond its best before date. CFB Lahr closed in 1994 btw
Well done dude. Excellent delivery especially on the Widowmaker