Thank you for this discussion and the participants' willingness to share their experience of searching for answers beyond a rigid belief system. Here is an excerpt from the writings of Marshall Vian Summers on this topic: "I believe what I want to believe. This statement represents the great folly of humanity and humanity's most dangerous forms of self-deception. Beliefs are primarily founded on what is wished for, not on what is genuine. They may in fact represent the greater ideals of humanity and in this they bear a true reflection, but on a day-to-day basis and in most practical questions, people base their beliefs on things they hope for, and not on things that actually exist. You must have a very sound understanding that the approach to any resolution... must begin with current reality. What you are and what you have today must be your starting point. Examine what you believe and then examine what you want. You will find that even your fearful or negative beliefs are associated with your ambitions." (MVS, Steps to Knowledge) Consider asking yourself what you might find on the other side of belief. Perhaps truth?
Indeed. I see it as what we believe is a function of our taught history and society values and thus has a biased look at what reality we are actually confronting. I might say the programmed mind is a fog that is layered over reality. The test for this is to wonder what we might believe if we were born into a different culture, Asia etc. I started from a more fundamental inquiry that specifically ignored mind based beliefs, views, desires...all mental activity ie What is seen? What is looking? This aligns with the quote above "What you are and what you have today must be your starting point." "The dangerous forms of self-deception" (above) for me is thus rooted in arbitrary self-definitions (beliefs) which can be heard spoken by people daily - I am this and that - which to my mind can paint ourselves into disastrous corners both in our mental health, quality of life and our world view as it might impact others. eg "I don't believe in God" , "You only live once"(I only live once) etc.
@@sarahnade8663 As Rupert points out, 300 years ago science went down this path of an atheistic religion. Before 30,000 years ago, the megalithic building wonders reveal much more advanced science and technology than today. But its the objective stupidity of modern science that is so disappointing. As Rupert points out, the Big Bang hypothesis wrecks every law of physics, as do Black Holes, Dark Matter, Dark energy - its all so… lost.
@@FFE-js2zp Wait. How is atheism linked with any of that? Atheism as a serious idea is a pretty modern one. And for all that time beforehand, religion was taken as a given. I think you may be getting very confused here.
@the first shall be last I went through a rebellious teenage atheist phase and then various shades of eastern spirituality and western philosophical thought before I reconciled myself to the truth of Christ.
It was one of the worst I made. It destroyed my trust in the Bible and ruined my relationship with God, contributing to my becoming an atheist. I should have stayed Mennonite.
A man was stopped by masked gunmen one night as he hurried across an especially nasty stretch of Belfast. "What religion are ye?" one of the gunmen demanded. "I'm an atheist," the terrified man mumbled. The gunman appeared startled, but quickly regained his wits, asking, "Aye, but are ye a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"
I don't know if that's just meant as a totally fictional account. But my friend (or her friend, can't remember which) was asked if she was a Catholic or a Protestant and she replied Mormon and then was asked if she was a Catholic Mormon or a Protestant Mormon.
@@miguelthealpaca8971 It is a parable that exemplifies a truth, but in your friend’s or your friend’s friend’s experience, it would seem that it was all too real. 1) Many people are prisoners of binary thinking, e.g. Black or white. Up or down. Good vs. Evil. You are either with us or your against us. 2) Even if one were to reject the religion of their childhood, they are always marked by the experience because they were exposed to these cultural values during their critical formative years. _”Give me the child until he is seven and I’ll give you the man,”_ goes an old Jesuit proverb. If one was raised as Methodist and converts to the LDS, they are in a very real sense a Mormon Methodist. An atheist who was raised Catholic will just have more in common with other with the same theological upbringing.
That was beautiful guys. I have not found myself talking to a video so much in a long time. I literally felt like that was a conversation with friends and even though I’m not Christian, it brought me a big step closer. Bless you all
(Particularly, your inclusive knowledge of the deep understanding, rather than the “exclusive” excluding words being pushed by our brother in this podcast. No disrespect to that voice, it’s a learning process always for us all
Very compelling discussion. I came to the video wanting to have my thoughts provoked and am very satisfied that happened, so gratitude to all involved 🌸🌸🌸
I'm at a loss as to how to deal with the hope of Rupert, the apologetics of Paul, and the agnosticism of Philip as this relates to their Christian praxis, and how all of this relates to our "modern" world that has a variety of religious beliefs, scientific and philosophical understanding in knowing, practice and history, and how humanity can evolve beyond dogmatism and what appears to be a continually evolved unveiling of not just faith in the numinous but a sincere communion with the mysterium, that only those who know, know, and know not to speak on, and instead live by through exemplification. Yet, with that said, I appreciate the fact that those in dialogue here and we as a species are sincerely trying to work and figure this out.
I see God as an ongoing process, which we can elect (or not elect) to participate in. We can work with God toward perfecting a not-yet fully realized universe. By embracing and practicing and encouraging what Phillip has discussed so often, namely VALUE, we take part in evolving the positive effects of goodness and away from pain in all of its manifestations: we become or are part of what might/could be called a divine TEAM of sorts all working toward fine-tuning the consciousness of the universe, ie helping to evolve it into a heaven for all life.
I was a 14 year old girl, 1980, when friends let me know about Rupert Sheldrake. That time I didnt really understand what I was reading, but it never left me. Today people like Rupert and the lovely guys above keep my peace of soul. When I was a child I couldnt believe the Genesis...it wanted to tell humans are sooo unique, different from animals and plants. But why god made plants and animals male and female before us, if we are so special? That was one of the many mistakes I saw for myself. Today I believe that the Abraham religions are a continuation from Sumer and its concept of monarchy, priesthood and slavery. But the biggest adventure and present in my life was Sinai....22 years ago I had a meeting there that I dreamed of 2 weeks before. That changed me entirely and I am still so very thankful for that. Its not right to publish this experience here, I have this idea that sometimes you need to keep it unspoken to protect it. I am still not sure who he was...one side of me would like to share with you Rupert and one side thinks its ridiculous to even try. God bless you
Regarding the point at 56:00 I'd say that there's a big difference between belief and trust. Most people ask if you "believe in God" as if they wanted to know if you really think that there's an old man hovering above the skies, somewhat detached from our daily experience. But coming from Slavic culture I can say that many people understand it differently. They do not "believe in God" as a hypothesis, they trust God as you would trust your parents. You see, the very word "belief" already questions the presence of such entity. Whereas for people like my grandmother God was a real, continuous presence in her life, not a philosophical entity. It influenced all her decision making and she had trust in that presence.
"It influenced all her decision making". Yeah that's the entire problem that atheists and secularists have with religion. I hold spiritual beliefs, but the idea that I would rely on them to inform my material world politics and morality is absurd.
They Spoke to Me By Yves Bonnefoy Translated by Mary Ann Caws They said to me no, don’t take any, no, don’t touch, that is burning hot. No, don’t try to touch, to hold, that weighs too much, that hurts. They said to me: Read, write. And I tried, I took up a word, but it struggled, it clucked like a frightened hen, wounded, in a cage of black straw, spotted with old traces of blood. Translated from the French Source: Poetry (November 2014)
Plenty of disdain for secularism here. Secular does not mean ‘anti-religious’ or suppressing religious belief, it means separation of church and state, freedom of conscience, letting people follow whichever belief system they wish, or none, (as long as not breaking the law); not giving religion special privileges to impose its beliefs and practices. The rise of secular values of the Enlightenment was the best thing that ever happened to our species. For 99.9% of our time on Earth, we lived in poverty, ignorance, hardship. Something amazing happened in Europe in the 17-18th centuries which evolved into the most fortunate - and quite anomalous - civilization that ever existed. Institutional Christianity held this process back by suppressing freedom of thought - Giordano Bruno, Galileo, Voltaire testify. No freedom to think…….then no creativity, innovation or spiritual advance. Western secularism has its faults, disconnection from the natural world being the most salient perhaps, but Abrahamic religions are partly responsible for this: 'man’s dominion over nature', Aquinas’ anthropocentrism and so on. PS: 'Christianity' is basically ‘Paulism’. Jesus’ teaching was subverted very early on in its history…… the foundational concept of reincarnation was excised from the Christian creed by Emperor Justinian in the 5th century for political reasons.
The whole point of secularism is to not allow religious belief to inform your politics. We've had a very, very bad history of religion being used to inform choices in the material world. It's crazy that people in the 21st century still think the bible should inform modern law.
I apprecciate the advances in technology and our ability to hold an even better 'dominion over nature' However, the monopolisation of resources and the financial system means most people might live longer more comfortable lives but there is still a huge wealth divide. People are perhaps not ignorant but they certainly aren't wise or able to think coherently in this modern education system. I would argue we are over, mis and disinformed on a slew of geopolitical topics and to even begin to digest the nature of those who seize power is understandably depressing at the very least. Do you think all abrahamic religions are the same? What about the multple varieties of Christianity? I think we tend to over simplify or over complicate things and deeper investigation is required. I dont think any person deeply trying to put on Christ and perfect themselves would only follow St Paul, carelessly trash the planet or follow Aquinas. Having said this people are still following papal teachings and taking for granted the abundance offered in modernity, What do you believe the original teaching of Christ was?
I compare religion, I see many like thoughts and beliefs in all. I wonder why this has divided so many, just a language and different names but all very much alike.
I am curious as to why Rupert has yet to bring art and creativity into the fold/the discussion of "spiritual practices". (Maybe there's a whole new book possible dealing with this area??---hint hint.)
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9 "The Self (Ultimate Reality) cannot be known through study of the scriptures, nor through the intellect, nor through hearing discourses about it. The Self can be attained only by those whom the Self chooses. Verily unto them does the Self reveal himself." Katha Upanishad 2:23
Seeker's goal, these fine days, is to rush to conclusions knowing time is very short making endless speculations useless ~ afterlife a worthwhile death is finally knowing, " yes so that is what it really is!!" All exists within patterns ~~
@@BrotherShalom Thanks for facilitating the guilt by association fe psyop. You're right in your first comment, but you're not helping by associating that truth with childish vulgar nonsense 🙄
I think that a succinct critique of scientism (a true plague during pandemic times, scientistic dogma, not scientific knowledge, has justified and implemented appalling measures of sanitarian apartheid and restrictions) could be: if we can't trust experiences, we can't trust experiments.
@@baze3SC exactly my point. Experiments are conceived, conducted, observed and interpreted by conscious experiencers. This is so self evident that it it's denial is almost embarassing.
@@apairofbrowneyes77 The only "problem" is that if there's a repeatable experiment, independent observers can obtain similar results which reinforces their definition of "objective reality", seemingly shared by all observers. Whereas regular subjective experiences are not shareable (why is that so is a topic for another debate) and it's not possible to "confirm" them. This is why science only deals with "shareable" phenomena. However this decision was only made because of convenience. It would be wrong to take this narrow view and postulate that nothing else really exists.
@@baze3SC you are right about the repeatibility constraint of the scientific method. However, there is a distinction between "confirmation" and "validation". As you know, there are phenomena that cannot be reproduced in controlled artificial conditions, hence are not repeatable. And these phenomena are simply not the domain of science because the scientific method is concerned only with the measurable phenomenology. Science can collect information about a fraction of reality, but what it does is to reduce reality to fit its own limits. And this is materialistic, mechanistic scientism. Confirming something does not make it inherently true. It may only very well mean that different people are making the same mistakes. After all, that's what materialists say about the zillion people that have had spiritual and mystical experiences: we're just all mistaken!
Dear beautiful people… God bless you! …. and I am sending a lots of kisses from Belgrade, Serbia (orthodox). Thank you for all your thoughts and energy…. I want to send same songs…for fan…lyrics are important and I hope you will like it …
(Realms : Physical Spirit Fathers) The holy trinity , three dimensions, Always ponder your thoughts have energy and ones consciousness can be eternal. Ones heart and mind must become one to enter and to be contrite. Know the Two commandments and all others will follow with ease.
I like your language and I agree with you, language does divide the people. Also, thoughts do have energy. I am not sure I remember when I started pondering my thoughts, but I do remember when I was working in the garden it felt like I took a 1/2 step out of my conscious mind and just looked at what I was thinking and I started to see patterns and why I seemed to be a very confused person. I stared to look and my mind without any judgement and found I could change what I was thinking and replace negative thoughts with positive thoughts and found myself becoming a fairly content and happy person.
@@shirleyjust3305 So TRUE , We all have a Third eye if we choose to open it. Your Heart is key. Know this, those who keep kindness and forgiveness in there spirit emulate a energy that others of the same are drawn. Be so careful of this physical place as it has temptations, it will draw you back, this is the trap. Seek Fathers Kingdom , know why your soul is here. Bear sweet fruit as you can. Father sees all and knows even your thoughts. There is no hidden agendas. This physical realms money is bait to its trap. I wish you well Shirley the Just, your Father Loves you
why do you stop others from believing in their own God? it does not threaten your relationship (if you actually bothered to create one, instead of mimicking others)
I will say that Christianity isn't pantheism. Point of Christianity is realizing that you and I have broken Gods law and we need Gods mercy and that is exactly what Jesus Christ is.
im an orthodox anglican that only believes in the english-- my name is Paul. lets all be polite, who cares about God? im merely interested in power, not people
From one who has been on the doorstep. Religion is only a human or group of humans trying to do things to please the one that created all. Funny but a wonder how so many human minds could have this common thought. So many seekers from so many places across the globe. Matter is created by energy and can change form in so many ways. So why do some say and think our thoughts and self consciousness needs to be restricted to only be in this physical Realm?
@@robertforsythe3280 Loooootta copium, that's why so many people come to the same conclusions. I do not believe we are born into this world by force, our every incarnation is a choice we actively make. Because the spirit realm being a place of no restrictions makes it a place of endless pleasure, but no growth or discovery. Only through the limitations and hardship of material reality can spirits evolve and grow. But a lot of people are weak, seek to back out and run back home. And religion through most of history has just been people looking for ways to back out of what they signed up for.
@@sarahnade8663 Correct !!! We are given choices in the spirit realm. We chose to come here for development of our spirit/soul. We know that both the physical realm & the spirit realm have a limited life span. Our spirits know they must return to our Fathers realm for eternal life. If you choose to confirm other enlightenment I will be here for you.
@@robertforsythe3280 I think it's way more complicated than that. Certainty and linear time are constructs of the material realm. And even then, it's relatively easy for humans with our technology to see the cracks. I would then say that there is no one ultimate truth, there are an infinite number of potential ultimate truths and it's defined by your observations which truths are true in your perspective.
@@sarahnade8663 Yes there are multiple realities. Yes there are many paths to take. I look to those in history have changed our physical lives. Like Einstein and Tesla. I look to multiple cultures that have sought to become immortal. Historic Roman writings and how they propose to achieve this goal. I am a NDE'er and know the doorstep of the spirit realm. I saw my last incarnation, (my last human life). I spoke with what I recognized my long past birth mother. I am now a seeker of the truth and immorality. I only wish to help others in there quest, (to bear fruit). The LOVE I felt was so thick it became part of me. Please at least ponder my words.
I am dismayed listening to Philip to learn he is a Professor of Philosophy. I'm sorry but he is an example of the lowering of the bar in our times. We do not need 'another' book on consciousness in order to fulfill his requirements of his job. I suggest he read Dr Iain Mcgilchrist's latest book The Matter With Things, in order to understand consciousness.
Haven't listened yet but yeah Belief has zero to do with some Vedanta schools. It's all about Knowing. 100% knowing without a doubt because of personal experience If you want to start out with belief that's fine I suppose. But none of that really matters at all and the goal is to know
I know I am way late to the party, but Paul's claim about Genesis omitting "... and it was good" after the creation of humanity is untenable given that 1) humans are the only created entity said to bear God's image and 2) just a few verses later we are told that God looked upon everything that he created and proclaimed that it was *very* good.
I would like to make a little known thought. Could it be that our creator (God) and to me father, knows everything even everyone's thoughts and desires. Nothing is hidden, and all agenda is known by him. Just ponder these thoughts and Wonder of how could this be. Only a NDE could think of such things. This is the Belief of one that has been on the doorstep.
Things are not good or bad they just are if they deamed to happen buy god then there is a reason why even if we do not see it at time, all that we are is all that has been.
Paul just laughs at those that suffer. i am so ashamed of what i have been forced into. change happens when the money (and drugs) run out. then death which becomes welcome
@@mortalclown3812 I agree of course. But there's something singular about what's happening in England. It's been going wrong for more than just the past decade...
nope. scientism is not my experience at all. your machines create the story of science. my evidence this year is a scary prison of terror and fear with sudden moments of violence. miracles also happen but they come through other beings, shining as God's light-- that builds respect for others.
Christianity's fall is multi faceted. But it largely breaks down into two parts. Imperialism and fascism. Christian Europe in the 1500's began a mass scale colonisation of the globe. Millions were genocided and whole cultures were wiped off the face of the earth. And a lot of that was justified that these other people were not Christian and we could do what we wanted to them. And then we have fascism. The active resistance by a LOT of Christians against making society more tolerant, more peaceful and more loving in order to maintain their unearned privilege and power. And people can see all this. This is why the primary criticism of Christianity from atheists and agnostics is that Christianity is deeply hypocritical. The abondonment of the Church is people reacting to this evil that has been allowed to thrive unchecked within the church for so long.
i never experience free will in your world. you addict me to drugs and i am forced to run like a dog everyday without any holiday. so you get a choice but others don't?
I always appreciate Rupert Sheldrake's quiet demeanor and thoughtful, concise and clear answers.
I do as well. He has both a open mind and kindness of heart. To just listen to him says it all.
Thank you for this discussion and the participants' willingness to share their experience of searching for answers beyond a rigid belief system.
Here is an excerpt from the writings of Marshall Vian Summers on this topic:
"I believe what I want to believe. This statement represents the great folly of humanity and humanity's most dangerous forms of self-deception. Beliefs are primarily founded on what is wished for, not on what is genuine. They may in fact represent the greater ideals of humanity and in this they bear a true reflection, but on a day-to-day basis and in most practical questions, people base their beliefs on things they hope for, and not on things that actually exist. You must have a very sound understanding that the approach to any resolution... must begin with current reality. What you are and what you have today must be your starting point. Examine what you believe and then examine what you want. You will find that even your fearful or negative beliefs are associated with your ambitions." (MVS, Steps to Knowledge)
Consider asking yourself what you might find on the other side of belief. Perhaps truth?
Thank you~
Good quote. I practice the Steps to Knowledge and this is by far the most powerful and effective book of practices I ever had in my life.
Indeed. I see it as what we believe is a function of our taught history and society values and thus has a biased look at what reality we are actually confronting. I might say the programmed mind is a fog that is layered over reality. The test for this is to wonder what we might believe if we were born into a different culture, Asia etc.
I started from a more fundamental inquiry that specifically ignored mind based beliefs, views, desires...all mental activity ie What is seen? What is looking? This aligns with the quote above "What you are and what you have today must be your starting point."
"The dangerous forms of self-deception" (above) for me is thus rooted in arbitrary self-definitions (beliefs) which can be heard spoken by people daily - I am this and that - which to my mind can paint ourselves into disastrous corners both in our mental health, quality of life and our world view as it might impact others. eg "I don't believe in God" , "You only live once"(I only live once) etc.
What a fascinating and useful conversation. Thanks for confirming todays humans are not entirely lost.
....................not lost , but back in the woods , with a wet map ????..........ex 428 FE CJ owner
How are humans lost? We're thriving compared to what we were 500 years ago.
@@sarahnade8663
As Rupert points out, 300 years ago science went down this path of an atheistic religion. Before 30,000 years ago, the megalithic building wonders reveal much more advanced science and technology than today. But its the objective stupidity of modern science that is so disappointing. As Rupert points out, the Big Bang hypothesis wrecks every law of physics, as do Black Holes, Dark Matter, Dark energy - its all so… lost.
@@FFE-js2zp Wait. How is atheism linked with any of that?
Atheism as a serious idea is a pretty modern one. And for all that time beforehand, religion was taken as a given.
I think you may be getting very confused here.
@@sarahnade8663
Have you watched Rupert at all?
Becoming Eastern Orthodox is the best decision I’ve ever made.
@the first shall be last I went through a rebellious teenage atheist phase and then various shades of eastern spirituality and western philosophical thought before I reconciled myself to the truth of Christ.
It was one of the worst I made. It destroyed my trust in the Bible and ruined my relationship with God, contributing to my becoming an atheist. I should have stayed Mennonite.
A man was stopped by masked gunmen one night as he hurried across an especially nasty stretch of Belfast.
"What religion are ye?" one of the gunmen demanded.
"I'm an atheist," the terrified man mumbled.
The gunman appeared startled, but quickly regained his wits, asking, "Aye, but are ye a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"
I don't know if that's just meant as a totally fictional account. But my friend (or her friend, can't remember which) was asked if she was a Catholic or a Protestant and she replied Mormon and then was asked if she was a Catholic Mormon or a Protestant Mormon.
@@miguelthealpaca8971 It is a parable that exemplifies a truth, but in your friend’s or your friend’s friend’s experience, it would seem that it was all too real. 1) Many people are prisoners of binary thinking, e.g. Black or white. Up or down. Good vs. Evil. You are either with us or your against us. 2) Even if one were to reject the religion of their childhood, they are always marked by the experience because they were exposed to these cultural values during their critical formative years. _”Give me the child until he is seven and I’ll give you the man,”_ goes an old Jesuit proverb. If one was raised as Methodist and converts to the LDS, they are in a very real sense a Mormon Methodist. An atheist who was raised Catholic will just have more in common with other with the same theological upbringing.
That was beautiful guys. I have not found myself talking to a video so much in a long time. I literally felt like that was a conversation with friends and even though I’m not Christian, it brought me a big step closer. Bless you all
This is a fascinating conversation that held my attention Due to a great commentator and three great thinkers. I hope we get more of this.
Love love love love.... Rupert, brother. I respect you 🙏🤗
(Particularly, your inclusive knowledge of the deep understanding, rather than the “exclusive” excluding words being pushed by our brother in this podcast. No disrespect to that voice, it’s a learning process always for us all
Very compelling discussion. I came to the video wanting to have my thoughts provoked and am very satisfied that happened, so gratitude to all involved 🌸🌸🌸
I'm at a loss as to how to deal with the hope of Rupert, the apologetics of Paul, and the agnosticism of Philip as this relates to their Christian praxis, and how all of this relates to our "modern" world that has a variety of religious beliefs, scientific and philosophical understanding in knowing, practice and history, and how humanity can evolve beyond dogmatism and what appears to be a continually evolved unveiling of not just faith in the numinous but a sincere communion with the mysterium, that only those who know, know, and know not to speak on, and instead live by through exemplification.
Yet, with that said, I appreciate the fact that those in dialogue here and we as a species are sincerely trying to work and figure this out.
Once again I'm encouraged by and appreciative of Rupert's speaking.
I see God as an ongoing process, which we can elect (or not elect) to participate in. We can work with God toward perfecting a not-yet fully realized universe. By embracing and practicing and encouraging what Phillip has discussed so often, namely VALUE, we take part in evolving the positive effects of goodness and away from pain in all of its manifestations: we become or are part of what might/could be called a divine TEAM of sorts all working toward fine-tuning the consciousness of the universe, ie helping to evolve it into a heaven for all life.
Really enjoyed that dialogue. I like listening to these kinds of conversations about spirituality
I was a 14 year old girl, 1980, when friends let me know about Rupert Sheldrake. That time I didnt really understand what I was reading, but it never left me. Today people like Rupert and the lovely guys above keep my peace of soul. When I was a child I couldnt believe the Genesis...it wanted to tell humans are sooo unique, different from animals and plants. But why god made plants and animals male and female before us, if we are so special? That was one of the many mistakes I saw for myself. Today I believe that the Abraham religions are a continuation from Sumer and its concept of monarchy, priesthood and slavery. But the biggest adventure and present in my life was Sinai....22 years ago I had a meeting there that I dreamed of 2 weeks before. That changed me entirely and I am still so very thankful for that. Its not right to publish this experience here, I have this idea that sometimes you need to keep it unspoken to protect it. I am still not sure who he was...one side of me would like to share with you Rupert and one side thinks its ridiculous to even try. God bless you
Thank you Rupert 💓
Regarding the point at 56:00 I'd say that there's a big difference between belief and trust. Most people ask if you "believe in God" as if they wanted to know if you really think that there's an old man hovering above the skies, somewhat detached from our daily experience. But coming from Slavic culture I can say that many people understand it differently. They do not "believe in God" as a hypothesis, they trust God as you would trust your parents. You see, the very word "belief" already questions the presence of such entity. Whereas for people like my grandmother God was a real, continuous presence in her life, not a philosophical entity. It influenced all her decision making and she had trust in that presence.
"It influenced all her decision making". Yeah that's the entire problem that atheists and secularists have with religion.
I hold spiritual beliefs, but the idea that I would rely on them to inform my material world politics and morality is absurd.
Enjoyed this discussion very much!
They Spoke to Me
By Yves Bonnefoy
Translated by Mary Ann Caws
They said to me no, don’t take any, no, don’t touch, that is burning
hot. No, don’t try to touch, to hold, that weighs too much, that
hurts.
They said to me: Read, write. And I tried, I took up a word, but it
struggled, it clucked like a frightened hen, wounded, in a cage of
black straw, spotted with old traces of blood.
Translated from the French
Source: Poetry (November 2014)
Plenty of disdain for secularism here. Secular does not mean ‘anti-religious’ or suppressing religious belief, it means separation of church and state, freedom of conscience, letting people follow whichever belief system they wish, or none, (as long as not breaking the law); not giving religion special privileges to impose its beliefs and practices. The rise of secular values of the Enlightenment was the best thing that ever happened to our species. For 99.9% of our time on Earth, we lived in poverty, ignorance, hardship. Something amazing happened in Europe in the 17-18th centuries which evolved into the most fortunate - and quite anomalous - civilization that ever existed. Institutional Christianity held this process back by suppressing freedom of thought - Giordano Bruno, Galileo, Voltaire testify. No freedom to think…….then no creativity, innovation or spiritual advance.
Western secularism has its faults, disconnection from the natural world being the most salient perhaps, but Abrahamic religions are partly responsible for this: 'man’s dominion over nature', Aquinas’ anthropocentrism and so on.
PS: 'Christianity' is basically ‘Paulism’. Jesus’ teaching was subverted very early on in its history…… the foundational concept of reincarnation was excised from the Christian creed by Emperor Justinian in the 5th century for political reasons.
The whole point of secularism is to not allow religious belief to inform your politics. We've had a very, very bad history of religion being used to inform choices in the material world. It's crazy that people in the 21st century still think the bible should inform modern law.
I apprecciate the advances in technology and our ability to hold an even better 'dominion over nature' However, the monopolisation of resources and the financial system means most people might live longer more comfortable lives but there is still a huge wealth divide. People are perhaps not ignorant but they certainly aren't wise or able to think coherently in this modern education system. I would argue we are over, mis and disinformed on a slew of geopolitical topics and to even begin to digest the nature of those who seize power is understandably depressing at the very least.
Do you think all abrahamic religions are the same? What about the multple varieties of Christianity?
I think we tend to over simplify or over complicate things and deeper investigation is required. I dont think any person deeply trying to put on Christ and perfect themselves would only follow St Paul, carelessly trash the planet or follow Aquinas. Having said this people are still following papal teachings and taking for granted the abundance offered in modernity,
What do you believe the original teaching of Christ was?
I can´t say I agree completely with R. Sheldrake about atheist not being able to pray.
What about his reasons for his conclusion do you disagree with?
I compare religion, I see many like thoughts and beliefs in all. I wonder why this has divided so many, just a language and different names but all very much alike.
Its not about belief but experience...But isn't that the "divide" between Christian in spirit (mystics) and materialists...
1:16:02 welcome to Peter Rollins’s work.
I am curious as to why Rupert has yet to bring art and creativity into the fold/the discussion of "spiritual practices". (Maybe there's a whole new book possible dealing with this area??---hint hint.)
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
"The Self (Ultimate Reality) cannot be known through study of the scriptures, nor through the intellect, nor through hearing discourses about it. The Self can be attained only by those whom the Self chooses. Verily unto them does the Self reveal himself." Katha Upanishad 2:23
Seeker's goal, these fine days, is to rush to conclusions knowing time is very short making endless speculations useless ~ afterlife a worthwhile death is finally knowing, " yes so that is what it really is!!" All exists within patterns ~~
Virology is a belief system. Worth challenging
Like the round Earth belief?
@@mortalclown3812 we live in a flat plane yes, shape of earth? Who knows
@@BrotherShalom
Thanks for facilitating the guilt by association fe psyop. You're right in your first comment, but you're not helping by associating that truth with childish vulgar nonsense 🙄
I think that a succinct critique of scientism (a true plague during pandemic times, scientistic dogma, not scientific knowledge, has justified and implemented appalling measures of sanitarian apartheid and restrictions) could be: if we can't trust experiences, we can't trust experiments.
True. After all, experiments are not performed by some disembodied unconscious entity. We decide what to look for and we also interpret the results.
@@baze3SC exactly my point. Experiments are conceived, conducted, observed and interpreted by conscious experiencers. This is so self evident that it it's denial is almost embarassing.
@@apairofbrowneyes77 The only "problem" is that if there's a repeatable experiment, independent observers can obtain similar results which reinforces their definition of "objective reality", seemingly shared by all observers. Whereas regular subjective experiences are not shareable (why is that so is a topic for another debate) and it's not possible to "confirm" them. This is why science only deals with "shareable" phenomena. However this decision was only made because of convenience. It would be wrong to take this narrow view and postulate that nothing else really exists.
@@baze3SC you are right about the repeatibility constraint of the scientific method. However, there is a distinction between "confirmation" and "validation". As you know, there are phenomena that cannot be reproduced in controlled artificial conditions, hence are not repeatable. And these phenomena are simply not the domain of science because the scientific method is concerned only with the measurable phenomenology. Science can collect information about a fraction of reality, but what it does is to reduce reality to fit its own limits. And this is materialistic, mechanistic scientism. Confirming something does not make it inherently true. It may only very well mean that different people are making the same mistakes. After all, that's what materialists say about the zillion people that have had spiritual and mystical experiences: we're just all mistaken!
Dear beautiful people… God bless you! …. and I am sending a lots of kisses from Belgrade, Serbia (orthodox). Thank you for all your thoughts and energy…. I want to send same songs…for fan…lyrics are important and I hope you will like it …
хвала и Бог благословио
(Realms : Physical Spirit Fathers) The holy trinity , three dimensions, Always ponder your thoughts have energy and ones consciousness can be eternal. Ones heart and mind must become one to enter and to be contrite. Know the Two commandments and all others will follow with ease.
I like your language and I agree with you, language does divide the people. Also, thoughts do have energy. I am not sure I remember when I started pondering my thoughts, but I do remember when I was working in the garden it felt like I took a 1/2 step out of my conscious mind and just looked at what I was thinking and I started to see patterns and why I seemed to be a very confused person. I stared to look and my mind without any judgement and found I could change what I was thinking and replace negative thoughts with positive thoughts and found myself becoming a fairly content and happy person.
@@shirleyjust3305 So TRUE , We all have a Third eye if we choose to open it. Your Heart is key. Know this, those who keep kindness and forgiveness in there spirit emulate a energy that others of the same are drawn. Be so careful of this physical place as it has temptations, it will draw you back, this is the trap. Seek Fathers Kingdom , know why your soul is here. Bear sweet fruit as you can. Father sees all and knows even your thoughts. There is no hidden agendas. This physical realms money is bait to its trap. I wish you well Shirley the Just, your Father Loves you
why do you stop others from believing in their own God? it does not threaten your relationship (if you actually bothered to create one, instead of mimicking others)
🌚☄️❤️💫
I will say that Christianity isn't pantheism. Point of Christianity is realizing that you and I have broken Gods law and we need Gods mercy and that is exactly what Jesus Christ is.
im an orthodox anglican that only believes in the english-- my name is Paul. lets all be polite, who cares about God? im merely interested in power, not people
What about belief without anything? No religion, practice, mythology, social structure, or even a traditional philosophy.
From one who has been on the doorstep. Religion is only a human or group of humans trying to do things to please the one that created all. Funny but a wonder how so many human minds could have this common thought. So many seekers from so many places across the globe. Matter is created by energy and can change form in so many ways. So why do some say and think our thoughts and self consciousness needs to be restricted to only be in this physical Realm?
@@robertforsythe3280 Loooootta copium, that's why so many people come to the same conclusions.
I do not believe we are born into this world by force, our every incarnation is a choice we actively make. Because the spirit realm being a place of no restrictions makes it a place of endless pleasure, but no growth or discovery. Only through the limitations and hardship of material reality can spirits evolve and grow.
But a lot of people are weak, seek to back out and run back home. And religion through most of history has just been people looking for ways to back out of what they signed up for.
@@sarahnade8663 Correct !!! We are given choices in the spirit realm. We chose to come here for development of our spirit/soul. We know that both the physical realm & the spirit realm have a limited life span. Our spirits know they must return to our Fathers realm for eternal life. If you choose to confirm other enlightenment I will be here for you.
@@robertforsythe3280 I think it's way more complicated than that. Certainty and linear time are constructs of the material realm. And even then, it's relatively easy for humans with our technology to see the cracks.
I would then say that there is no one ultimate truth, there are an infinite number of potential ultimate truths and it's defined by your observations which truths are true in your perspective.
@@sarahnade8663 Yes there are multiple realities. Yes there are many paths to take. I look to those in history have changed our physical lives. Like Einstein and Tesla. I look to multiple cultures that have sought to become immortal. Historic Roman writings and how they propose to achieve this goal. I am a NDE'er and know the doorstep of the spirit realm. I saw my last incarnation, (my last human life). I spoke with what I recognized my long past birth mother. I am now a seeker of the truth and immorality. I only wish to help others in there quest, (to bear fruit). The LOVE I felt was so thick it became part of me. Please at least ponder my words.
I am dismayed listening to Philip to learn he is a Professor of Philosophy. I'm sorry but he is an example of the lowering of the bar in our times. We do not need 'another' book on consciousness in order to fulfill his requirements of his job. I suggest he read Dr Iain Mcgilchrist's latest book The Matter With Things, in order to understand consciousness.
Haven't listened yet but yeah Belief has zero to do with some Vedanta schools. It's all about Knowing. 100% knowing without a doubt because of personal experience
If you want to start out with belief that's fine I suppose. But none of that really matters at all and the goal is to know
I know I am way late to the party, but Paul's claim about Genesis omitting "... and it was good" after the creation of humanity is untenable given that 1) humans are the only created entity said to bear God's image and 2) just a few verses later we are told that God looked upon everything that he created and proclaimed that it was *very* good.
I would like to make a little known thought. Could it be that our creator (God) and to me father, knows everything even everyone's thoughts and desires. Nothing is hidden, and all agenda is known by him. Just ponder these thoughts and Wonder of how could this be. Only a NDE could think of such things. This is the Belief of one that has been on the doorstep.
Things are not good or bad they just are if they deamed to happen buy god then there is a reason why even if we do not see it at time, all that we are is all that has been.
N37⭕️
Paul just laughs at those that suffer. i am so ashamed of what i have been forced into. change happens when the money (and drugs) run out. then death which becomes welcome
According to the DICTIONARY; RELIGION = SYSTEM OF BELIEFS.... So what language are you talking?
We could not understand each other otherwise....
Why is England gone so badly wrong?
Every country: it's not happening in a vacuum.
@@mortalclown3812 I agree of course. But there's something singular about what's happening in England. It's been going wrong for more than just the past decade...
As Rupert points out, its the culmination of 300 years of primitive scientific beliefs.
@@FFE-js2zp Considering the state of things prior to that. I'd infinitely rather be living today than back then.
Purpose of life, Quran 51:56
Sorry Goff!
nope. scientism is not my experience at all. your machines create the story of science. my evidence this year is a scary prison of terror and fear with sudden moments of violence. miracles also happen but they come through other beings, shining as God's light-- that builds respect for others.
Blimey, the person bottom right cannot stop it with the mugs and tankards, Must have imbibed a quart or more in the first 15 minutes..
Christianity's fall is multi faceted. But it largely breaks down into two parts. Imperialism and fascism.
Christian Europe in the 1500's began a mass scale colonisation of the globe. Millions were genocided and whole cultures were wiped off the face of the earth. And a lot of that was justified that these other people were not Christian and we could do what we wanted to them.
And then we have fascism. The active resistance by a LOT of Christians against making society more tolerant, more peaceful and more loving in order to maintain their unearned privilege and power.
And people can see all this. This is why the primary criticism of Christianity from atheists and agnostics is that Christianity is deeply hypocritical. The abondonment of the Church is people reacting to this evil that has been allowed to thrive unchecked within the church for so long.
Jesus is not a metaphor
Jesus is this son of God
i never experience free will in your world. you addict me to drugs and i am forced to run like a dog everyday without any holiday. so you get a choice but others don't?
Philip, you are lost, you need Jesus
oh-- Phillip Goff is into scientism. too bad he sneers at all others