Avoiding A Dangerous Situation on the Lathe | Making A Lathe Spider
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- G'day everyone,
This is a side project I found myself doing whilst making some new die holders. I am making a few extra ones, similar to the design I made back in April, however I ran into an issue whilst machining some of the longer rods that were a meter long. The long length causes the unsupported end to sag and wobble whilst running. This is a very dangerous situation if the lathe were to run as the stock could bend and whip around.
The solution was to make a lathe spindle spider, which can slide on to the rear of the spindle and support the end of the stock. This is a quick project that I managed to knock out in a few hours. It was unplanned and I didn't have the right stock on hand, but I think I managed to get a final part that I was happy with. For what its worth, it has worked very well.
#machining - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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1:25 gotta love that the e-stop is on a movable panel so when the guy in a panic tries to slam it it only pushes the panel away
This video, to me, excellently embodies the "need a tool, make a tool" machinist's mindset. And it does it better than the longer-form builds you've demonstrated before for me, as this was very much spur of the moment.
Unlike most other projects, this one was riding on the mentality of, "I have a job to do, but there's a problem and I need a tool. With the shops closed, what can I do with what I have to make ends meet?"
"not to be confused with the spider that lives underneath the lathe" Hahaha
Hey, it's Australia, he might not be Joking...
There may just be a spider living under his Lathe...
It might be his version of a Guard Dog protecting his shop from Thieves...
😄😁😆😅😂🤣
Side projects like this is a time honored tradition. It's when you get three layers deep making a tool to make a jig which is used to make a fitting and finally the fitting is used to fasten the work piece as needed so you can do that 40 seconds of cutting that was originally needed.... :D
yep...and that 40 second job was said to be impossible, and your boss didn't get it that it required wizardry, and a couple of hours extra, like trying to explain to an engineer you can't shorten a 2" bar by 3"...... many have tried.
Just bent a 100 dollar 3/4-8 acme thread I was machining with too much rear stick out. It was fast and violent. Whole lathe was shaking up and down and the shaft just bent to a 90°! Took me a long second to pull power. Had to change my underwear after. Never seen that other video b4. Wish I had. I knew better.
I see there a market for a rapid automatic stop. 😅
@@y2ksw1 lol. I ran from that lathe like a scared little girl. I yanked the plug on the wall!
Was making my own Olympic bar and started to lathe in high gear as opposed to low 🤦🏽. Lost a good work bench and a day’s work thankfully no injuries.
I was hired to replace a guy who did this at work with a 3/8 1018 bar. The bar sheared itself off and launched itself into rolling shutters but took out a table next to it full of precision equipment. A couple of micrometers and calipers were destroyed. One of the pair of Calipers was launched 100 feet into an area where others were working, so it was a close call.
Max stick out of spindle should never be more than 5 times diameter out of spindle or 3-4 times out of collet or chuck on the machining side. Without support, of course.
I still wouldn't have this much stickout from the video even after the collet, but at least it's seems safer. I'd personally use or make a steady rest for the spindle stickout. Good job as always though, keep it up.
I made an ER collet adapter for the outboard end of my lathe to replace the spider. In my case that's ER40. Self-centering, so no need to dial stock in, just tighten the ER collet on the stock and it's ready to go.
Yes that's what i did, just used a old ER collet block.
A lizard lives under my lathe. He must feel that is the safest place.
I had an apprentice tool maker running a lathe at low rpm with a bar sticking out the back side of the headstock. The variable speed handwheel on the lathe had a habit of drifting slightly, but not enough to bother. I had stepped away for a couple of minutes so the apprentice asked the supervisor if there was something wrong with the speed handwheel. The wheel was mounted low on the machine so he got down on his knees and was running the speed up and down. The round bar bent sideways and the lathe went to shaking violently. He didn't realize what was going on and at that moment I walked back around the corner and saw what happened. I put my hand on his shoulder, said don't stand up, and shut the lathe off. When he realized what he'd done he turned white and went over and sat at his desk. If he'd stepped into the bar it would have killed him instantly. You may argue I shouldn't have had the bar sticking out but I intentionally set a low rpm to keep it from being unsafe.
BTW, that particular supervisor was intensely disliked by everyone....the rest of the people in the shop never did forgive me for keeping him from getting killed. I just didn't want that visual memory.
I 3d printed a bunch of standard size spacers that press into the end of my spindle bore. Good enough for that end.
It's worth mentioning that every workshop should really have an emergency stop button located away from the machines so you can retreat from a dangerous situation and still turn things off.
I think all lathes should come with a lathe brake for this reason
If you do end up needing roller supports, why not use the mill table itself to mount it?
The support just needs to be adjustable in the vertical axis then, the mill table can do the rest.
side quests are some of the best things done in a shop.
I like when you show projects that will just get the job done, it makes it more realistic and less daunting for people like me who are new to machining
You should get a roll of shimstock. Then you could have cut some pieces off to stick under the set screws you wanted to use to attach it to the spindle.
It's also just nice to have in general.
Lathes can be pretty fucking terrifying!
Yet another nice lathe tool build. We shared this video on our homemade tool forum last week 😎
Nicly done!
Mayby you can make a bunch of sleeves in diffrent sizes? Then you could just pop them in there and fasten them with the setscrews an good to go. No need to dial in and it goes superfast to change between stocksizes.
As always, you problem solving is clean and simple.
interesting....30 year ago I cut 6 mtr length of bar stock with a thread chaser, I angled the lathe next to a building stanchion/ steel post and/ or cut a hole in the wall if no room, tailstock or headstock, then used a collar/ sleeve in the headstock bore, different ones for different stock, and bolted a 'loose' steady to the building if needed , hence angling the lathe close to something steady , and had a stand at the backend/ headstock, to steady the protruding bars , this above method works too , kept the revs under 300 ish from memory, all on a 4metre lathe bed. Excellent solution here.
Bit out of left field perhaps but we use it at work to great effect. 3D printed spindle liners work exremely well. We're using them for up to 2" at 1.2m long stock in our CNC lathes and they work without issue. We line our spindle tube with 2-3 of them but for manual you can probably get away with 1 easily. We print them in PLA with extra layers on the walls and about 30% infill for some extra stiffness. Over 1 year on and the cutting fluid and oils etc have yet to bother them at all.
nice job and great to see a small side project quick fix.
thanks for sharing ...definitely useful stuff
Nice work, I have never seen the clip of the long shaft taking off like that. In the steel mill, the machine shop used an adjustable vee block with nylon
pads and generally slower speeds.Very nice work, cheers!
Excellent project, thanks so much for sharing 😊👍
Very nice compromise! You think out of the box as well as anybody on TH-cam! Thanks for all you do for your subs and take acre!
This happened to me a few months ago with a threaded rod, I realized when it was spinning and started to bend and I turned off the lathe, however the inertia was enough to bend it 90° and hit the steel table a bunch of times, hopefully me and the lathe we are both fine
Nice simple design, mine had to be a little more complicated because some French engineer decided that the back of my spindle didn’t need to rotate with the rest of it…
Nice work mate. A timeless solution for a timeless problem.
Bruce here, I appreciated your video because I need the same thing for my lathe and this looks like something I’ll do.Keep them coming for all us home shop machinist and thanks again.
The creativity and execution shown here has earned you a new subscriber. 👍
A very project with little those make the best videos. Keep up the good work
Nice job.
Fantastic work, dude! Really brilliant solution! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Just bolt the lathe's steady rest to the mill table and adjust as needed 😎
When i made mine, I originally designed it in three pieces with an outer sleeve going over the spindle and an inner sleeve that goes inside the end of the spindle far enough to reach some pre-existing internal threads. The inner sleeve then screwed in to hold everything in place.
As it turned out, the friction fit of the outer sleeve was more than sufficient and i never got around to making the inner sleeve.
Your hose clamp works, but ugh. Wouldn't want to catch a finger on it.
Your clamping screw set up is safer than mine. I need to redo the clamping screws on mine so they don't stick out as far. Currently i have six 10-32 socket head cap screws, since i need more clamping range than stock set screws can achieve.
As an Ozzie, I'm willing to bet the spider living under your lathe is probably the size of a dinner plate...
nice simpel solution.
cheers
ben
Consider two identical hose clamps in series - this gives a weight on either side to keep it balanced.
If there was a bit more space before hitting the pulley I would have certainly added one. If anything, just for the added clamping force
Very nice work
First thing i made for both of my lathes was a spider for the outboard and cathead for the steady. They share an inboard spider though. I mainly work on barrels so making those was pretty much mandatory but they have come in handy for tons of other one off projects.
You could make a set of rollers to fit the mill table then use x&y on the mill to true it in. Maybe could even use the lathe's steady rest to mount to the table via and adapter. You would have to square it to the spindle of the lathe though
Sometimes you have to use what you have on hand...i think you did a great job with what you had. Cheers!!
I also saw a video earlier today, where they had a chuck mounted on the back of the spindle. A, it can help hold your stock stable, and B there's a lot of other uses for it. One was basically using it like a disk sander.
I have a similar lathe mill setup like you have. I mount a modified stedyrest to the table of my mill to support stock.
You do have the milling machine in the way, but could you for future projects make a roller support that sits on the table of the mill? Or is that hand wheel in the way.
If everything goes to plan, i should be there next week for a future episode.
Very cool. Reminds me of a section of 'Lathe Design, Construction, and Operation', where he mentions lathes that have chucks on both sides of the headstock, for exactly this reason, in the oil industry for machining long sections. (It's a very old book.)
MyfordBoy just did exactly that on his mini lathe just recently, doubles up as a sanding station which keeps the lathe bed clean
Nice, good idea.... I might make one like this for me too...
You can probably make a roller-support on top of the bed of the mill for longer or thinner stock I guess.
Grub screws leaving marks: If i don´t want that grub screws leave a mark in the material, i put a little peace of (annealed) copper or fishing lead into the threaded hole. Especially lead will stay in the hole, even if you remove the screw....
If you put a small piece of weed eater string under your set screw s then they won’t mark the shaft I use them all the time. Just a suggestion thanks
for long stock take advantage of the mill by having a steady rest tie onto the bed of the mill itself.
yeah if you have a steady that's short enough to fit in the space. I don't
Nice , i made a lathe spider and a stand about a month or so just for this reason
Using the hose clamp is fine, this wasn't a bad video at all.
I made one for my lathe also, but it holds gun barrels so that I can dial the bores in concentric. I'm a licensed gunsmith.
Will show the guys at work
We have a small kbc lathe we call it a toy lathe your video Is safer then just a steady rest like you said add both
Knowledge is power thanks
another option would be to make a mini steady rest that you can mount to the mill table but sits inline with the lathe spindle, seeing as the mill is right there
I don’t think you really needed the hose clamp. When you do the screws up on the stock it can’t go anywhere anyway. Just needs a good snug fit on the spindle.
Nice vid though mate 👍
Spiders are good, but don't forget that you can also just use a rest. A basic T piece of wood with a tripod at the base and modicum means to height adjust. Perfectly usable/acceptable.
I made one a while ago, and I don’t clamp it to the spindle. Once the 3 screws to center the stock are set, the spider isn’t going anywhere …
Yes thats exactly what I were thinking if its a close fit over the spindle and its clamped to the workpiece that should be all you need
For your shop, since you don't use both machines at the same time, why not just build a simple steady rest that sits on the mill table to hold the excess lathe material stable...
If you machine one or two bars protruding out the bottom, they can drop into the mill bed slots to keep the steady rest from sliding sideways (relative to the lathe spindle bore) without actually having to clamp it down, making set up/break down very quick & easy for when you stop using the lathe and switch to the mill...just set it on the mill table and adjust the mill's X & Z axis to align them with the lathe spindle bore, slide in the bar stock and start turning the parts...
That would also allow support of much longer rods than anything bolted to the back of the spindle itself would not to mention if you need to use a really long rod to minimize material waste, you can always make 2 steady rests for the mill bed to support the rod at either end of the mill bed increasing shop productivity, economy AND safety all at the same time...
I dont do this often enough to justify the steady build. Like I said in the video I had an hour or to two get this made and this is the common go to solution
It'll still whip when it resonates so give it a twang, observe the frequency and keep the spindle speed well below a quarter of it.
Suggestion rather than the Grubs - Turn a set of nylon sleeves at your most common bar sizes and use those grubs to hold the sleeves
Great idea
so many things one might think they need that kind of tool for to get a job done... fewer and fewer things to get one thing done.
That never happened to me, since I was only turning single and tiny pieces. The longest item I made was about 250 mm long. 😅
I make delrin bushings to accomplish this sometimes
Tôi rất thích xem video này! Nội dung hấp dẫn và cung cấp thông tin, bao quát tất cả các điểm quan trọng với sự rõ ràng tuyệt vời. Các trợ giúp trực quan và ví dụ được sử dụng thực sự đã giúp minh họa các khái niệm, khiến cho việc hiểu dễ dàng hơn. Tôi đánh giá cao nỗ lực được đầu tư vào sản xuất, từ kịch bản có cấu trúc tốt đến hình ảnh chất lượng cao. Cảm ơn vì đã tạo ra một video giáo dục và thú vị như vậy. Hãy tiếp tục công việc tuyệt vời này! Tôi mong chờ nhiều video khác từ bạn trong tương lai.
I think I remember you getting a steady with your lathe would you be able to mount that to your mill or mill bench to support the end of the bar
The hose clamp looks a little kludgy. I would have bored out the spider by say just slightly over1 mm and inserted a 1 mm thick shim, and have retaining screws bear down on that. That way the spider can be removed if required for lathe servicing and still avoid the retaining screws chewing up the spindle.
would you have the range on the mill to hold a bearing in the vice and have the stock go through that bearing? lovely video as usual by the way, I'm always learning a lot
Probably not in the vise itself, you'd want some sort of stand which is heigh adjustable. Might be able to mount it to the t slots.
I actually had this issue the other day so I just clamped a piece of square tube in the vice of a drill press and fed the workpiece into that . Worked quite well for how dodgy it looked
Gotta hand it to you, that’s quite impressive for such a set up
What if you threaded the slitted end , then tapered the edge and make a retaining nut with the corresponding taper to lock it on ( think like how the connectors on a garden hose work )
As long as it does the job, and well to boot, what else do you want?
Cheers 👍💪✌
I had an aquitance who had a 2cm deep trench in the forehead hit by a 1.5" diameter stock what was stick out of the lathe too long
I just have my intern with a good pair of leather gloves hold the stick out. It works! Wow that sounds weird?
When I was in college, we were taught, any more than three points of holding were redundant.
Can't you mount the lathe's steady rest in the mill table somehow? I mean you have a perfectly good mounting surface that can be moved both further in and further out as you need haha
I had a look and the steady is about 7cm too tall to fit so I’d have to chop off a fair chuck off the bottom in order to make it fit
Please consider a recessed thru nut/bolt instead of the plumbers clamp. Even a really small diameter bolt will work. The plumbers clamp could come loose and cause a disaster. That's a lot of stick out. Take some precise measurements and cut the stock to a shorter length to reduce the stick out. Very nice video. I'm a fan of your work.
Sincerely Robert
Rollers are safest bet. This setup will not work if the bar stock is bent in 2 axis at different length. As the stock is pulled inside to machine, the runout is introduced making the previous dailing useless.
Obviously but I work with the stock that I have and it isn’t bent. If it ever is that’s a problem for future me to deal with
Where is the hacksaw?
Where exactly do you buy your lathe inserts ?
could you give us your opinion on the new lathe thus far, would you buy again? knowing what you know now would you have selected other? many thanks.
for me id buy it again. its a roughly made lathe but at only $2700 aud its a pretty good deal for the price. I can make accurate parts with it and that gearbox means it can produce endless amounts of torque at low rpm. Just a shame about the noise but that part does not worry me as much as it does some other people
It still needs to be supported even with a spider.
If you go longer yea
@@artisanmakes I use the video of the lathe breaking free of it's footings with unsupported stock in my CNC course of what can happen when you don't follow protocol. I'd rather not find another video, If you know what I mean. Stock material is cheap in comparison to what potential risks are associated with cutting corners.
Pretty scary eh. I get the feeling everyone uses that same boy of footage because we were shown it when I did my uni shop induction course
Bandsaw?
wait till he finds out about spindle liners.....
I am sure that they would have worked here too
1:08 While talking about safety: check your sleeves please!
I don't see big a problem. The e stop is in, the lathe is off. That is usually the case when im doing these follow up shots
@@artisanmakes as long you can't get caught in spinny things all fine
Be safe.
- I hope your tailstock drill has a tang. Morse taper is not designed for over size drills. You were lucky it held and not destroy the tail when it lets loose.
- don’t use a sharp cutter when reducing an expanding or reducing finger. It could have grabbed and ripped the part out of the lathe. I saw it on another video doing exactly the same last week.
- up to you but I think your stick out diameter to length ratio is still too much. I would not run it. Given you have the mill under it, why don’t you setup a steady rest on there to hold it closer to the end too?
Once again, please be safe.
I dont see why. I have used morse taper drills larger than this and they seemed to hold on fine enough. From memory it was 32mm and it fit in the MT3 sleeve
Still very dangerous. We used to tie a rag to the bar so anyone else not familiar with the machine will see that the bar is rotating. Best to have the bar inside the machine with a steady rest or follow rest. Better still a roller box.
Even though I deeply thank you avoid the talking head style videos, because I'm here to see your job, for some unknow reason I think it would be nice to see just a still picture of you besides your lathe as the closure of your videos. I remember how happy the people was when This Old Tony showed his face on that video hahahaha. Cheers from Buenos Aires mate ;)
My first lathe project was building a spider/cat's head for the back of my lathe's spindle (which I secured by cutting internal metric threads)......and I also made two more that are held in the 3 or 4 jaw chuck on the front.
I'm not really a fan of the hose clamp..... but well done on building your spider. You would actually be better served by a movable set of rollers for this application; similar to the "Turn Wright" kit that Keith Fenner sells. A roller is superior in supporting long/flexible work at higher rpm's..... reminds me of the time I chucked up on one of my 1-piece pool cues (and was also supported on the backside with a spider- Luckily, I got the lathe shut down quick enough, but almost had the same scenario as the "Shake Hands with DANGER" video you showed......😂🤣
Preventing marring on the stock: My spiders use 3/8-24 bolts; I just tig'd some bronze (AL or SilBrz) on, & machined it smooth. Prior to that, I just used a wrap of copper.
hose clamp creates an off-balanced load and stresses the headstock bearings.. Short-term its probably okay but long-term I would come up with something else to swedge it in place
I have a lathe spider too. She looks poisonous. We’ve agreed to disagree on where she lives and leave each other alone.
Don't kid yourself. A spindle spider is only for aligning parts in the spindle. You are still at risk of a bar hitting critical shaft speed, with a simple mistake like selecting rpm which is too fast. Anyone watching would do well by understanding critical shaft speed and proper lathe practice. You can risk improper setups on your own. My understanding that the clip shown was a programming error where speed limit was not set. They knew the risk and took it anyway.
yeah its not a catch all solution but set up properly it works. I machined all this, it sat happily at 900 rpm with 30 cm of stick out the back
@@artisanmakes The title implies a spider will prevent stock whipping. I don't know how to convey how unsafe this really is and that anyone doing this will get lucky until they don't...this is a calculated risk, with none of the factors even mentioned.
I do mean to imply it, you just have to set up properly so it does end up whipping around. If it didn't work I would have abandoned it and not posted it. I think most people understand that this has limits and itll eventually need a roller stand
@@artisanmakes you didn't tell them what the limits are. Recipe for disaster
it'll be dependent on the material and its diameter and stick out. But even without calculating it you can usually feel through the lathe if its going to vibrate and go wrong. Thats im sure that would be intuitive to anyone who has experience using lathe
Too much "stick out"! Not a problem for tRump!