Gimli in the book knew something went wrong and cautioned the party from going that way. It was Gandalf who insisted on Moria after failing at Caradhras.
Nobody tosses a dwarf! - In the films, Elrond was summoning allies to Rivendell in order to discuss the Ring, which was not the case at all in the books. Gimli, Gloin, and the dwarves were there to warn about Sauron's emissaries attempting to negotiate with them at Erebor, and to see if they could find any news about Balin's lost company. Legolas and the Mirkwood elves were there to confess that they'd lost Gollum and to say on Thranduil's behalf, "Sorry, we cocked things up!" And Boromir came seeking answers to the cryptic dreams both he and Faramir were having regarding "Isildur's Bane" and "The Sword that was Broken". I get why for the films they streamlined all this to make it strictly about the Ring.
There is so much to unpack from all 3 novels. I find it understandable why they left certain things out and more so, put focus on the one ring as you mentioned.
@@johnneiberger7311 Cause then they would've known about the danger there and if Gimli knew about Moria, it wouldn't be part of their options to reach Mordor, there wouldn't be any Balrog, Gandalf wouldn't die, and it would change everything. The reason they didn't send an expedition is that they needed to stay ignorant for Tolkien's idea for his story to play out.
Yeah, adaptation induced plothole. For someone else asking why they didn't send another expedition, and to add to the video: They didn't know what had happened to them. If Durin's Bane wasn't gone they dare not go in force (that would leave Erabor undefended anyway), so they could only send a small party. It's not shown in the movies, but there were other dwarves with Gimli: they would presumably have gone to Moria on their own had the Fellowship not gone that way. Possibly the dwarves with them would have headed that way in the spring had the Fellowship succeeded at the passes. As for the time that had passed: Dwarves live longer than humans. For them it wasn't relatively as long.
It would be good for all the major characters actually, not just Gimli. I read the books as a kid 30 years ago and even the moves are now over 20 years old and I think my memories of both are starting to bleed into each other.
In what way does this comment add to the conversation of this video? Imagine having a serious conversation about the morality/impact of King Leonidas leading his 300 men to the hot gates and then some dude just yelling "This is SPARTA!". That's what you just did.
There's a popular theory that claims that Sauron was the one who started and spread the rumors about Moria being ready to reclaim in order to lure as many dwarves as possible into a trap that would kill them all to make the future attack on Dale and Erabor easier. I think it makes perfect sense, especially given the description of the rumors as "a shadow of disquiet". Sauron is described numerous times as a "shadow", and spreading rumors among the dwarves to lure them into a trap fits perfectly into his style of manipulation and deception. It would also explain how the orcs that destroyed Balin's expedition were so well organized and planned out to the point of damming the river to block the west gate.
Nobody tosses a dwarf I could very well imagine the first part, but I am not sure about the second. The orcs of the Misty Mountains could muster a strong force and deal a heavy blow even without Saurons will - as far as we know both Azog and Bolg did not follow orders (different to the movies). The battle for Moria happened also during a time when Sauron seem to be much more focussed onto Mordor (after he had "abandoned" Dol Guldur) and build up his forces in the far East and South. I could very well imagine that the counterattack which crushed Balins people were the work of a coalition of ork-commanders from the North, like the Battle of the Five Armies were done by a coalition under Bolgs leadership. It may even be that they rallied some support from Trolls and Wargs (there were some Trolls in Moria when the Fellowship arrived, and Wargs were active on the western gate).
Another channel as well suggested it was a trap and that orcs on the west side of the mountain intentionally damned up the river so that waters would be level with the doors and the watcher could pick off those dwarves that tried to escape that way.
Dain didn't literally see the Balrog - it wasn't hiding behind the Dimrill Gate during the battle. He had an intense vision of great evil still lurking in the depths of Khazad-dûm.
“Chances of certain death. Small chances of success. ….what are we waiting for?” I’ve tried to adopt Gimli’s attitude best as I can in this life. It helps
Talking about the films here, "What would have happened if the fellowship didn't alert the Orcs and Balrog, and safely passed through the mines?" It's one of the biggest events that shapes the whole story and future. I mean the destruction of the Balrog, the transformation of Gandalf, the death of Boromir, the emotional and psychological change in Frodo...of the things in the films, I honestly believe the passing through the mines had the biggest effect in the story.
Consider this too. Balrog was a Maiar of the opposite force (like demons). Gandalf was a Maiar himself, just on the other side (like angels). Balrog sensed the powerful opposing Maiar around him and decided to confront it for entering its realm.
Saurumon turning to siding with Sauron probably had the biggest effect in all of the movies. Considering that’s the only reason they took the mines in the first place, and mannnny other events taking place afterwords
@@Flipindabird23 Hmm...Sarurman is an interesting character. Mixing our franchises for a second, I see him like Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader from Star Wars. Both Anakin/Saruman are the most powerful of a group of chosen warriors meant to serve and protect, they are both extremely egotistical to the point of narcissism, they are both extremely power hungry, they both become disillusioned with their reality, and they both fall victim to hubris by becoming the right hand of a more powerful evil thinking that one day they will overthrow that evil and be the one in charge. There's a lot of parallels to me. Also, for me...his turning to evil and siding with Sauron wasn't really a big deal. In a way, he was the perfect person to side with Sauron eventually. I almost feel, that his becoming evil was not a change in character, but rather the final evolution of his nature to begin with. It was always going to happen, and it might even have been part of Eru's vision for him. The events that happened in the mine however, were not part of a plan, there were a stupid accident, a random fluke, whatever we want to call....but from the events in Moria so much of the story and sub-plots seem to stem.
Nope. Gandalf coming to the Shire had the biggest impact. No one would even know where the ring was if it wasnt for Gandalfs observing of Bilbos disappearing act.
Book Gimli's perspective would also require more exposition, which is harder to pull off on film. And LOTR has a lot of exposition. The fact that "The Shadow of the Past", a chapter of the book consisting _entirely_ of exposition, was pulled off so well in the film is miraculous.
It is still curious that King Dain never sent messengers to Moria to discover why the colony had gone silent. Or he did send such messengers and they were never heard from again.
Keep in mind that Dain knew that Durin’s Bane was still present, which is why he didn’t approve of Balin’s expedition. That would be why he didn’t send more messengers , assuming that it would simply get more dwarves killed, without answering the question of what had happened.
It's also worth noting that Balin would have had the prior expedition to Erebor that had turned out well for the Dwarves, so in his mind maybe reclaiming Moria would be just as possible. I really wish there had been something specifically covering Balin's years in Moria, fleshing out their explorations and that last desperate stand. That would make for fascinating, if grim reading!
True. He may have been thinking "if we can retake Erebor from a DRAGON with a little over a dozen dwarves and a hobbit, surely Moria could be reclaimed with a full dwarven expedition".
Do you think the location and moment of Balin's death was a deliberate opposite or Durin? Durin saw his reflection, and went in to found and be lord of Khazadum while Balin set himself a lord of Moria, exited to see his own reflection, and at that moment perished? Was it Tolkein's judgement on Balin's hubris. Once such a wise Dwarf, only to return to Moria against Dain's counsel, and be slain while alone unguarded to look at his own reflection. Does it say: "Balin should not put himself up there with Durin"?
Gloin and Gimli were at Rivendell to report on the servant of Sauron seeking info on Bilbo and the ring, the growing shadow AND for advice/news on Balin's status in Moria. These videos are great and the movies are wonderful, but consider them an introduction. The true treasure lies in the books. If you haven't, read them. They will lift your heart and enrich your soul.
Albeit a bad introduction because as soon as people read the books they will be disappointed that the films changed the stories so much! And not in a good way!
@user-nz6dx2fj6h honestly the films are a faithful adaptation and excellent in their own right. There are a few egregious changes that bother me to this day, notably the Elves at Helms Deeps and the Army of the Dead saving the day at the Battle of Pelenor Fields which i feel detract from a major theme in the books, which was the coming together and the triumph of man to mark the beginning of the "Age of Man". The way the movie was written detracts a lot from the accomplishments of Man and with the exception of Aragorn protrays them as weak and many of the stronger characters essentially are bailing them out constantly. Robbing them of two of their greatest triumphs is a bit of a crime. But all in all, the films capture the essence of the story and the key story notes are left intact, which is about the best you can ask for in an abridge movie adaptation. Especially when you look at other adaptations of books and how sour they can truly be.
@@kristopherdickson6606 What nonsense! The battle of the Pelennor Field was no right of passage for the mankind of Middle Earth! The only hope for the people of Middle Earth rode on a Hobbit tossing the One Ring into the fires of Orodruin! Don’t know where you got that idea from? Are you American by any chance?
In the book Gimli and the Dwarves of Erebor knew full well something dire had happened as "they had had no word from Moria in some time". The complete ceasing of communication and progress reports back home was well noted.
i want to know why in the movie Gandalf had some deep knowing and dread of the mines as hinted by his unwillingness to go there and Saruman's narrative about knowing what awaits in the deep darkness there (Durin's Bane) and why Gandalf never seemed to converse this knowledge with the dwarf during the discussion on which path to take or indeed any other time in the film.
King Dain Ironfoot begrudged Balin’s expedition. He adamantly held that Moria should be abandoned until likely signs or omens portended otherwise. He lent relatively little aid or men to the project, & resolved to give leave, only, to dissidents who desired to pursue its reclamation. It was oddly a staunch opposition for Dain, since Balin was a relative. He passively observed their progress for 4 or 5 yrs, never reinforcing their company, despite regular news of gains & good tidings. Even their abrupt silence, after a few yrs of promising tidings, did not stir him to muster aid for the expedition. It seems he was content to write them off when things suddenly portended ill w/ them.
I think it was less about "writing them off", and more about knowing that was a war the dwarves could never win, so not sending more of his people to their deaths. I doubt he was glad to see Balin fail in his mission.
@@VaryaEQ You’re right. Gloin definitely was still an interested Moria inquirer on Dain’s behalf at the Council. Gloin’s son’s party claims Balin’s colonial archives from Moria, to give to Dain. Gandalf explicitly states that “it will interest…” Dain, “….though it grieve him deeply”
"The goblin that is feared is better than the wolf that is heard" - so said Boromir after the Caradhras has defeted them, and him and the felloship are discussing what to do. Thay all knew that Moria could be compromised, but been besieged by wolfs in the cold night of Caradhras they decided to take the path into Moria, an uncertain peril instead of a certain one. Good video, keep it on!
So nobody of the Dwarves of Gimli's family was wondering or even remotely thinking that it is weird to hear absolutely nothing from your family? But still think " If I show up with no message beforehand whatsoever, my cousin will still give a feast and we will party hard"... Great video, as always!
They knew it was weird, but, for 1: nobody else probably dared going in there to find out. 2: these kind of things are not things you admit openly. They were rumors, and you never know what could have happen: maybe the way out was cut out from falling rocks, maybe the bridge fell down, and they had no good way to cross, etc.
@@jawstrock2215 Also gotta remember that communication technology was basically limited to mounted messangers at best for almost everyone in Middle Earth at the time, they could entirely believe that, given how much more dangerous things were getting on the roads, something Gloin mentions in the book, that any messages Balin did send simply got waylaid.
Without Balin, everything may have changed. With not even a faint hope of safe harbor, Gimli would not have pushed Gandalf to cross through Moria and the fellowship would’ve had to choose between the mountain path and risking capture by Saruman. Even if they can avoid Isengard, they don’t get to go to Lorien and Frodo doesn’t get the phial, which dooms him to Shelob. Best case, they manage to cross the mountains but Gandalf doesn’t get his upgrade from fighting the Balrog. Balin’s sacrifice laid the groundwork for ultimate victory.
Gimli didn't really "push" Gandalf. Unlike in the movie, in the novel, Gandalf was actually the one who proposed going through Moria after Caradhras defeated them, and it was Aragorn and pretty much all of the others except Gimli were loath to go anywhere near the place.
If Balin had never tried to re-take Moria, it seems likely that Orcs would have continued to multiply there, but even the Orcs were terrified of the Balrog. Orc raids on Lothlorien and other settlements in the eastern foothills of the Misty Mountains would have likely increased, but it seems that the West gate was inaccessible even to Orcs due to the Watcher in the Water. My feeling is that the Balrog and the Watcher were not allied with any other force in the earlier centuries of the 3rd Age, although one wonders if Sauron might have enlisted them had he not been so weakened by losing the One Ring at the Battle of The Last Alliance. I am surprised that Dain never sent anyone to check up on Balin after the messages suddenly stopped 5 years after the colony was re-established. Is this lack of a follow-up on Dain's part just a plot element that JRRT never thought of, or was it deliberate, to leave Balin's fate a mystery for the Fellowship to solve on their own? Radagast's home at Rhosgobel was not very far from the East Gate at Moria, and it seems to me that Radagast should have heard at least a rumor of the battle that destroyed Balin's colony, and I wonder, why did Galadriel and the other members of the White Council not sense the awakening of the Balrog?
No body tosses a dwarf!!! Through out the books gimli is one of the more complex characters and even in the movies he is portrait as a pure soul but you get a glimps of his deeper personality through out the story telling... One of the things I like the most in the books is his and legolas relationship and ever growing understanding of the elf/dwarf fundamentals and growing respect, trust and friendship
I wish it hadn't been trimmed exclusively to the Director's Cut, because Jackson made it a point to demonstrate that Legolas was often dismissive of Gimli right up until he paid proper homage to Galadriel...and we immediately afterward get the scene in The Two Towers of him threatening to kill Eomer for threatening Gimli.
I do kind of hate how everyone worships the elves. They are total dicks in about every scene except for when galadriel was giving away gifts. Every other scene is a bunch of pompous twinks acting superior but being unwilling to help
I always chalked it up to Dwarves are so focused on their own thing to the point of almost selfishness so they just didn't bother to learn of news about Moria. "We haven't heard from Moria in a while... eh I'm sure they are fine" _continues to forge his sword_
@@LonewolfProd_ Legolas was there because Gollum was entrusted to their care after Aragorn captured him, but had escaped from the wood elves' prison. His dad, King Thranduil, sent him probably because he was too embarrassed to come himself and admit they buggered up. I can already hear Elrond berating him, "You had ONE JOB!" 😆
@@legionarybooks13 Considering how much I enjoyed Lee Pace’s portrayal of Thranduil… I kinda wish we couldn’t seen Elrond give Thranduil a dressing-down for fucking up so bad.
If Balin hadn't gone to Moria, there would have been two significant changes in my opinion. The first is that there would have been far less reason for Gimli to travel to Imladris for the Council and less reason to join the Fellowship if he had made the journey. The second is that without Balin, the Fellowship would have been less likely to attempt traveling through Moria, and Durin's Bane would likely have never come so close to the surface as to interact with the Fellowship.
@@oftin_wong Why not? One of the good things about the legendarium is that Tolkien strived for as realistic a portrayal as possible once he had set up the background. Moreover, the unknown fate of Balin provided an additional reason for readers to anticipate the trip through Moria. While from a dramatic point of view it need not have been Balin's fate, there needed some motivation for the Fellowship to attempt Moria beyond a desire to not wait for spring to open a pass over the Misty Mountains.
I’ve watched this some many times and some people call Gimli a wuss for crying when he discovers Balins tomb. This part is the best part of the movie for me i feel Gimli’s grief I can feel his despair this doesn’t stop him from enacting revenge for his fallen kin.
There's also the issue that in the movie, Gandalf knew what they could be up against in Moria and didn't fucken tell anyone "Gimli, your cousin is almost definitely dead at the hands of a Balrog if not the Orcs. Frodo, you get to decide how we die: on this mountain or under it"
Unlike Balin's mission of reconquest, the Fellowship is trying to get through Moria and out the other side by stealth. So movie Gandalf's motivation makes sense - there are orcs and a balrog down there, but hopefully we will get through and none will be any the wiser. As long as no-one does anything stupid to make some noise... And it is clear in the film (and the book) that they don't have any other option. The pass over the mountains are blocked, Saruman has traced their route and will certainly catch them if they make it near Isengard. Going north will take too long and probably be as dangerous in its own way. There is certainly an element in the book that people are not always given the full picture in case they are overcome with terror. The hobbits are warned to move quietly without rousing suspicion and avoid using the ring, but Gandalf doesn't tell them about undead wraiths who can see even through the ring's invisibility. Book Gandalf seems surprised (or at least didn't know for sure) it was a Balrog until he encountered it, possibly thought it was another watcher/nameless prehistoric creature. I don't get the impression Saruman knew what it was, despite explicitly saying so in the film (for dramatic foreshadowing purposes).
I have a question. Why did the gate of Moria said "Moria" if it supposedly the name Moria was given by the elfs after the fall of kazad Dum by the Balrog as it is a name meaning "black pit" for how it became after the fall? =/
Tolkein's writings are somewhat inconsistent on what they meant in those passages, but given that it's called Moria occasionally BEFORE the fall, it seems that the elves simply called that because they did not like the dark underground dwellings of the dwarves. The dwarves, at any rate, do not object to the use of Moria as the common name, and regularly use it when talking with others. It is just that after the Fall of Khazad-Dum the elves ceased to refer to it by any other name.
I can't believe Balin and company got trapped in Moria. Maybe a forward Squad but not the whole company. In my head, a band of dwarves could defeat The Watcher at the water
Nobody tosses a dwarf!! This has always been one of my favorite tophics to talk about and nerd of. In my opinnion everything happend for a reason, if Balin never went to Moria who knows what kind of orc strongholds would have envolved there! Like this they managed to strike a great blow to Ors forces/ altough they all met their demise at the end. James, its been a while since I wrote a comment on this channel I've had some ishues and I'm happy to be back and watching your videos and your love for Middle earth that we all share!
Azog sent me here! Moria has been one of the most interesting locations in middle earth. Ever since the first movie came out, I have wanted to learn more of this location
Legit Moria was so captivating as a kid. Imagining what the long dead halls used to look like in all of their glory. Being utterly terrified of what else could be creeping in the vacant tombs
I liked those chapters! I enjoyed his character as well as the lovely Goldberry! Right wasn’t that just the best surprise when reading it for the first time. The whole time I was like “why didn’t we get this character!!!!” Lol I hope you enjoy the read. Hopefully we make it to The Silmarillion!!
I would love to see a series being made about moria from the reclaiming, to the colonization, to the dramatic end, maybe closing on gimli mourning. Then again, we had rings of power, I dont want them to ever touch Tolkiens work again.
nobody tosses a dwarf when I re-read the Fellowship of the Rings I was really surprised that Gandalf actually wanted to go through Moria and it was Aragorn who proposed to try the passage over the mountains because he had a bad feeling about Moria because the movie version is so good and you usually watch it more often than reading the book you can quickly mix up what is the original and what is movie-only
I really did not like to potrail of Moria in the movies....they did not do it justice. But them I am a totall nerd when it comes to Moria....but I digress
This has honestly often irritated me, in the books. It just feels weird, after several years of news, and then some time of nothing, that no one was sent to investigate. The Dearves certainly knew some of the risks involved, and Dain said he couldn't give his blessing for reasons, but to just act like they don't exist anymore seems too cold, and dour, and while I don't actually feel that's how Balin and Co were seen, waiting many years, and not investigating, just seems odd. Oh well.
Well, Gimli and Gloin were at Rivendell for the purpose of asking if the Elves had heard of Balin's Expedition just as much as to tell them of Sauron's offer. Reading between the lines, it seems almost as if Dain forbade anyone to go looking for the missing dwarves, fearing that Durins Bane had taken them; and that Gloin and Gimli took advantage of someone needing to be sent to Rivendell to warn the elves that Sauron was up to no good to ask.
@@Dorsidwarf Considering Dain only begrudgingly gave Balin his blessing to checkout Moria, it would not surprise me. Dain Ironfoot was a good king, but he was still a stubborn bastard of a dwarf.
I would think it would be possible to create tension without making the character who has the main pathos of the scene less intelligent. Or, if Gimli had reason to think it would be safe in Moria, he could talk to Gandalf about it.
The thing about the movie version is that this change introduces a few issues. In the movie, it's Gandalf that's certain that the mines of moria are really bad news. How is it that he seems to know what, at least vaguely, what happened to the dwarves there but Gimli does not? You would think that Gimli would be keeping tabs on his kin and would have as much information as Gandalf. Perhaps more importantly, why is it that Gandalf keeps his knowledge secret when they're debating the route to take? Withhold this kind of intel from the fellowship while making such an important decision seems very foolish. It would be one thing for the fellowship to take a calculated risk. It's a whole other thing for them to just blindly stumble into a hazard they would have been alert to with nothing more than basic communication.
Gandalf had been through Moria once before and, while he almost certainly never encountered the Balrog in the flesh, he probably senses that an evil far greater than orcs still dwelt there and concluded that any attempt by a small party of Dwarves to re-establish their kingdom there was doomed. However, that was long before Balin went there, so he couldn't know for certain what had happened to him, but probably had a strong suspicion. As for why he withheld this information, it was because he thought Moria was less risky than traveling right by Isengard, so he didn't want the Ringbearer to be frightened into making the wrong choice. Either Gandalf or Elrond said at some point that if the Hobbits had any real idea of the dangers they were facing they'd never have undertaken the quest. Note that Aragorn had also been to Moria and didn't want the Fellowship to take that route but he also wouldn't tell anything about the dangers to be expected.
I don't know if you have already done this but listening to one of the audio book readers on TH-cam, it posed a question: what would have happened in your view if Gandalf's letter to Frodo had been delivered as intended. I have not the organised imagination that you possess and cannot answer this question with the justice it merits. If of course you have hypothesised this, could you link or give me the vid title as I'm a bit autistic and usually go the long way round when looking for something. Thanks
I’m not an expert, and this is only a guess, so ignore it if anything better comes along, but Shelob is the spawn of Ungoliant, who was at one point briefly powerful enough to send MORGOTH (essentially this setting’s ultimate evil) running like a little bitch. Mithril might just not have been enough to stop her. Of course, if the mithril wasn’t damaged, maybe we are to assume her stinger was pointed enough to slip between the rings of the shirt.
i think balin and company did a good job of keeping orc numbers down around moria for a long time too, lestening the number sumonable to mirkwood or orthnac. i cannot imagine a single dwarf head going for less than 50 orc ones
The movies don't make things particularly clear, but anyone who reads the books can answer this question. The night before the Council of Elrond, Frodo is seated next to a Dwarf whose name I can no longer recall. They talk briefly about events in Dale and Erebor, but during the council the next day, everything is made clear. You don't need to dig through the appendices, you don't need to read between certain lines and squint your eyes, while jumping on one leg and interpreting chosen passages in a specific way, while gargling salt-water... No, you just need to read what the Dwarves say during the Council of Elrond.
When you read the book, it makes sense and when you watch the movied it does too. All you have to remember is that we're talking about a lot of miles across difficult and often hostile terrain. That any word ever got through is impressive.
So Balin was arrogant and foolhardy? Things would have been no different if Balin had never tried to take Moria, because the orcs would have entered unopposed. You could argue that they would never have gotten in, but why did the dwarves not simply shut the door when Balin was shot? The place was clearly not unassailable.
This always bothered me about the films. In the books, they pretty much know what the deal is in Moria well before entering - it is KNOWN (although not to what degree or how bad).
I think the bigger question is why did they change it from Gandalf wanting to pass through Moria and Gimli opposed like in the books to the other way around
It was aragon not gimili that was against it in the book until they tried the mountain pass atleast first and boromir wanted to through the gap of rohan which gandalf was against.
@@jfyfkidfidfifiyfiyifyfyify9171 Yeah because Aragorn said that his experience in Moria was very evil,and he was against going through again until they had no other choice.
In the books, no one wanted to go through Moria. Gandalf did figure they had to do it though. Gimli certainly did not want to go in there but he definitely was a help to Gandalf during the journey into Moria.
Knowing what I know now is that I think the *bigger problem* for the movie version of accounts in that moment *is the fact that Gandalf knew,* specifically, that the Balrog was there or at least lurking somewhere as a potential threat, and likely a/the reason the Dwarves had stopped communication. It was in fact considered so dangerous that Gandalf encouraged the group to push on through the snowstorm. Why would Gandalf, as old and wisely respected as he was, withhold the sheer danger? He didn't say anything, just allowed Gimli to babble on about how hospitable his kin there would be. What I'd want to know is why the Balrog didn't show up till the party were trying to find a way through the Goblin hordes, and how/why they all fled as fast and far away from the Balrog since they are both servants to darkness? Or why the Dwarves, having been in Moria for a few years, did not disturb the Balrog?
I believe "Moria" is pronounced with a rolling R, not the soft-R of English. (Of course there's no rule that says that names have to always be pronounced precisely as they are pronounced in their original language.)
If it suddenly went quiet and they stopped sending the other dwarves updates about how it was going in Moria . Did none of the other dwarves think to physically go and check what was happening?
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF, I'm not sure if I'm subscribed yet but I enjoy your channel... An you've got a new subscriber if I'm not a subscriber already...
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF, I'm not sure if I'm subscribed yet but I enjoy your channel... An you've got a new subscriber if I'm not a subscriber already...
Does any book actually address why Gimli and company didn't go to/through Moria on their way to Rivendell for the council meeting from the Lonely Mountain? I find it odd that Gimli would want to check it out with the Fellowship but not want shortly before while journeying with his kin.
No, but we can guess. If I remeber correctly (and I might not), Glóin and Gimli traveled alone to Rivendell. It would not be wise for 2 Dwarves alone to go to Moria, despite the possibility of finding their people alive; specially if they were suspicious about going there.
@@jkbookie1274 Good point; going through Moria would have been a LONG way out of Gloin and Gimli’s way going from Erebor to Rivendell and they were in a hurry, due to the imminent threat of war with the Easterlings.
It would’ve been another 175 or so miles additional and getting to Rivendell was important. A messenger had been sent from Mordor twice, and that was more important. That Sauron was offering rings again.
If Balin had gone to Khazad Dum after Gandalf had killed the Balrog, then he would of been successful. But the time-line ruined that anyway. Sad really as he was a great character!😢😊 One of the originals from, 'The Hobbit', from one of the great creations of the Master himself, J.R.R.Tolkien'!❤😊
Dáin ironfoot did not see Dûrin's Bane. He felt it's power, evil and terror when he looked into the darkness. Every dwarf knew that something far worse than orcs and trolls was lurking there. It had driven the mightiest of the 7 clans of dwarves out, after all, but they did not know what it really was. The end of the first age was some 5,000-10,000 years in a long forgotten past. Balrogs were the name of terrors that had been destroyed at the end of the first age, right? Right? RIGHT??? Very few living elves in Middle Earth had ever seen a balrog by that point. Let's everyone know just how old Legolas really was, that he recognised it right away. Even Gandalf did not know what it was until that moment. He'd never seen one, after all, at least in his existence as a wizard, but he knew what a balrog was. PS: the movies were one of the worst things I've ever seen done to a literary masterpiece by Hollywood.
They didn’t have Twitter. Bailin @theRealBailin 1h Dug too deep. Overrun by hundreds of thousands of goblins. They have trolls. Also there is a balrog. At least there were no elves.
A great video and while I haven't read much of Tolkin's work I have read some of the core books and have enjoyed the films both trilogies too and that scene of finding the remains of Balin's tomb definitely hit differently for me. Not only do you see how it hits Gimli but it hits the audience as well sense we've seen The Hobbit story fully fleshed out and know just how wise, brave, and kind Balin was to all he called kin and friend truly a great loss for both Middle Earth but for us as fans.
I’m seriously wondering if this guy has an experience with the IPs he talks about. We know from the movies his name is Gloin, we know how to pronounce it. This guy, his name is Glowin. Why dude, why? 🤦♂️
Lots of younger people don’t know what it was like pre internet and cell phone. Back in the day you didn’t know where anyone was you just knew where they weren’t. Your employers and friends and family all feel entitled to know where you are at all times nowadays. This is a medieval fantasy setting where no such things exist and the dwarves in this world are secretive and prude so with those two elements it never occurred to me why gimli didn’t know exactly what went wrong with the dwarven expedition. He just knew they didn’t come back. It doesn’t really require any suspension of disbelief when you consider it
"Glo-in", man that's awful pronunciation of Gimli's fathers name, it should be more like a "Gloyn" sound, if your going to try to talk about Tolkien's work at least pronounce it correctly as JRR Tolkien was a professor of philology and wrote his story to flesh out the languages he invented, all the pronunciations are given in his books
i know the way everyone pronpunces Gloin is probably wrong... but there aint NO WAY thar "Glowin'" is correct. Even if it is, i refuse. My boy aint a firefly 😭
Gimli in the book knew something went wrong and cautioned the party from going that way. It was Gandalf who insisted on Moria after failing at Caradhras.
Yes! Thank you for pointing that out!
who gives a fuck about the Books??right only idiots
Woah! thats such a big change tbh
@@carpetsmell2523 A very big change, yes. Aragorn even had a premonition, warning Gandalf against entering Moria.
yea i have no idea why they would change it
Nobody tosses a dwarf! - In the films, Elrond was summoning allies to Rivendell in order to discuss the Ring, which was not the case at all in the books. Gimli, Gloin, and the dwarves were there to warn about Sauron's emissaries attempting to negotiate with them at Erebor, and to see if they could find any news about Balin's lost company. Legolas and the Mirkwood elves were there to confess that they'd lost Gollum and to say on Thranduil's behalf, "Sorry, we cocked things up!" And Boromir came seeking answers to the cryptic dreams both he and Faramir were having regarding "Isildur's Bane" and "The Sword that was Broken". I get why for the films they streamlined all this to make it strictly about the Ring.
There is so much to unpack from all 3 novels. I find it understandable why they left certain things out and more so, put focus on the one ring as you mentioned.
Definitely something I didn't mind them simplifying. Good for the books. A little too complicated for a film.
It seems to me that Erebor isn't *that* far from Moria. I wonder why the Erebor dwarves didn't just send expedition to see what happened.
@@johnneiberger7311 Cause then they would've known about the danger there and if Gimli knew about Moria, it wouldn't be part of their options to reach Mordor, there wouldn't be any Balrog, Gandalf wouldn't die, and it would change everything.
The reason they didn't send an expedition is that they needed to stay ignorant for Tolkien's idea for his story to play out.
Yeah, adaptation induced plothole.
For someone else asking why they didn't send another expedition, and to add to the video: They didn't know what had happened to them. If Durin's Bane wasn't gone they dare not go in force (that would leave Erabor undefended anyway), so they could only send a small party. It's not shown in the movies, but there were other dwarves with Gimli: they would presumably have gone to Moria on their own had the Fellowship not gone that way. Possibly the dwarves with them would have headed that way in the spring had the Fellowship succeeded at the passes. As for the time that had passed: Dwarves live longer than humans. For them it wasn't relatively as long.
“Nobody Tosses a Dwarf”!
Just love Gimli!!!!!!
That line was actually from a dwarf tossing sport they had in New Zealand.
It would be good for all the major characters actually, not just Gimli. I read the books as a kid 30 years ago and even the moves are now over 20 years old and I think my memories of both are starting to bleed into each other.
My uncle said he tossed off a dwarf once
Nobody tosses a dwarf!! 👍👍
Not without consent.
Don’t tell the elf…😊
Nobody tosses a dwarf
Not the beard!
In what way does this comment add to the conversation of this video? Imagine having a serious conversation about the morality/impact of King Leonidas leading his 300 men to the hot gates and then some dude just yelling "This is SPARTA!". That's what you just did.
There's a popular theory that claims that Sauron was the one who started and spread the rumors about Moria being ready to reclaim in order to lure as many dwarves as possible into a trap that would kill them all to make the future attack on Dale and Erabor easier. I think it makes perfect sense, especially given the description of the rumors as "a shadow of disquiet". Sauron is described numerous times as a "shadow", and spreading rumors among the dwarves to lure them into a trap fits perfectly into his style of manipulation and deception. It would also explain how the orcs that destroyed Balin's expedition were so well organized and planned out to the point of damming the river to block the west gate.
Nobody tosses a dwarf
I could very well imagine the first part, but I am not sure about the second. The orcs of the Misty Mountains could muster a strong force and deal a heavy blow even without Saurons will - as far as we know both Azog and Bolg did not follow orders (different to the movies). The battle for Moria happened also during a time when Sauron seem to be much more focussed onto Mordor (after he had "abandoned" Dol Guldur) and build up his forces in the far East and South.
I could very well imagine that the counterattack which crushed Balins people were the work of a coalition of ork-commanders from the North, like the Battle of the Five Armies were done by a coalition under Bolgs leadership.
It may even be that they rallied some support from Trolls and Wargs (there were some Trolls in Moria when the Fellowship arrived, and Wargs were active on the western gate).
Another channel as well suggested it was a trap and that orcs on the west side of the mountain intentionally damned up the river so that waters would be level with the doors and the watcher could pick off those dwarves that tried to escape that way.
Where did Tolkien say that Orcs dammed the river?
@@maximus3160 I think Tolkien mentioned that the Watcher in the Water dammed the river.
So wrong an analysis. And, the orcs didn't dam the river, the lurker did.
Dain didn't literally see the Balrog - it wasn't hiding behind the Dimrill Gate during the battle. He had an intense vision of great evil still lurking in the depths of Khazad-dûm.
Why do you say that?
“Chances of certain death. Small chances of success. ….what are we waiting for?”
I’ve tried to adopt Gimli’s attitude best as I can in this life. It helps
I tried that attitude in IT, was not very popular. At least we had backups.
How can there be "chances of certain death"? Either you have certain death, or you have chances of death.
@@freibierLOL
Talking about the films here, "What would have happened if the fellowship didn't alert the Orcs and Balrog, and safely passed through the mines?" It's one of the biggest events that shapes the whole story and future. I mean the destruction of the Balrog, the transformation of Gandalf, the death of Boromir, the emotional and psychological change in Frodo...of the things in the films, I honestly believe the passing through the mines had the biggest effect in the story.
Balrog...
Consider this too. Balrog was a Maiar of the opposite force (like demons). Gandalf was a Maiar himself, just on the other side (like angels).
Balrog sensed the powerful opposing Maiar around him and decided to confront it for entering its realm.
Saurumon turning to siding with Sauron probably had the biggest effect in all of the movies. Considering that’s the only reason they took the mines in the first place, and mannnny other events taking place afterwords
@@Flipindabird23 Hmm...Sarurman is an interesting character. Mixing our franchises for a second, I see him like Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader from Star Wars. Both Anakin/Saruman are the most powerful of a group of chosen warriors meant to serve and protect, they are both extremely egotistical to the point of narcissism, they are both extremely power hungry, they both become disillusioned with their reality, and they both fall victim to hubris by becoming the right hand of a more powerful evil thinking that one day they will overthrow that evil and be the one in charge. There's a lot of parallels to me. Also, for me...his turning to evil and siding with Sauron wasn't really a big deal. In a way, he was the perfect person to side with Sauron eventually. I almost feel, that his becoming evil was not a change in character, but rather the final evolution of his nature to begin with. It was always going to happen, and it might even have been part of Eru's vision for him. The events that happened in the mine however, were not part of a plan, there were a stupid accident, a random fluke, whatever we want to call....but from the events in Moria so much of the story and sub-plots seem to stem.
Nope. Gandalf coming to the Shire had the biggest impact. No one would even know where the ring was if it wasnt for Gandalfs observing of Bilbos disappearing act.
I feel like men and elves take most of the spotlight, so anything dwarf related is always a plus.
The shorter you are, the less spotlight you take up,.....assuming that the light is coming from an elevated position.
Men, half men, and elves. Dwarves get shafted every-time though. Even in the hobbit movies lol
Book Gimli's perspective would also require more exposition, which is harder to pull off on film. And LOTR has a lot of exposition. The fact that "The Shadow of the Past", a chapter of the book consisting _entirely_ of exposition, was pulled off so well in the film is miraculous.
It is still curious that King Dain never sent messengers to Moria to discover why the colony had gone silent. Or he did send such messengers and they were never heard from again.
Keep in mind that Dain knew that Durin’s Bane was still present, which is why he didn’t approve of Balin’s expedition. That would be why he didn’t send more messengers , assuming that it would simply get more dwarves killed, without answering the question of what had happened.
@@tomlienert882 King Dain knew that Durin's Bane COULD still be lurking in Moria but he could not know that for certain.
@@otaku-sempai2197 its not real life. its a story book.
Any messengers were eaten
@@ducksparrowmybel8night430 Yeah. Seems likely.
I absolutely love your videos. Can we get a complete history of moria? How it was founded, how you think it is in 4th age? That would be awesome.
Thorin stonehelm retakes it in the 4th age
We do actually have a full history of moria video on the channel 😁
Ok thank you.
@@razza119ahhhh so the dwarfs retake it after lord of the rings
It's also worth noting that Balin would have had the prior expedition to Erebor that had turned out well for the Dwarves, so in his mind maybe reclaiming Moria would be just as possible. I really wish there had been something specifically covering Balin's years in Moria, fleshing out their explorations and that last desperate stand. That would make for fascinating, if grim reading!
True. He may have been thinking "if we can retake Erebor from a DRAGON with a little over a dozen dwarves and a hobbit, surely Moria could be reclaimed with a full dwarven expedition".
Do you think the location and moment of Balin's death was a deliberate opposite or Durin? Durin saw his reflection, and went in to found and be lord of Khazadum while Balin set himself a lord of Moria, exited to see his own reflection, and at that moment perished? Was it Tolkein's judgement on Balin's hubris. Once such a wise Dwarf, only to return to Moria against Dain's counsel, and be slain while alone unguarded to look at his own reflection. Does it say: "Balin should not put himself up there with Durin"?
@@Arhimith Gimli sings a song about Durin and Dwarrowdelf while the Fellowship was in Moria in the chapter A Journey In The Dark.
@@Arhimith veryvery good point.
Gloin and Gimli were at Rivendell to report on the servant of Sauron seeking info on Bilbo and the ring, the growing shadow AND for advice/news on Balin's status in Moria.
These videos are great and the movies are wonderful, but consider them an introduction.
The true treasure lies in the books. If you haven't, read them. They will lift your heart and enrich your soul.
Fully agree the books are necessary reading , Gloin plays a big part in the book
Albeit a bad introduction because as soon as people read the books they will be disappointed that the films changed the stories so much! And not in a good way!
@@danbill9165 in the Hobbit, but small tiny part in LOTR.
@user-nz6dx2fj6h honestly the films are a faithful adaptation and excellent in their own right. There are a few egregious changes that bother me to this day, notably the Elves at Helms Deeps and the Army of the Dead saving the day at the Battle of Pelenor Fields which i feel detract from a major theme in the books, which was the coming together and the triumph of man to mark the beginning of the "Age of Man". The way the movie was written detracts a lot from the accomplishments of Man and with the exception of Aragorn protrays them as weak and many of the stronger characters essentially are bailing them out constantly. Robbing them of two of their greatest triumphs is a bit of a crime. But all in all, the films capture the essence of the story and the key story notes are left intact, which is about the best you can ask for in an abridge movie adaptation. Especially when you look at other adaptations of books and how sour they can truly be.
@@kristopherdickson6606 What nonsense! The battle of the Pelennor Field was no right of passage for the mankind of Middle Earth! The only hope for the people of Middle Earth rode on a Hobbit tossing the One Ring into the fires of Orodruin! Don’t know where you got that idea from? Are you American by any chance?
In the book Gimli and the Dwarves of Erebor knew full well something dire had happened as "they had had no word from Moria in some time". The complete ceasing of communication and progress reports back home was well noted.
i want to know why in the movie Gandalf had some deep knowing and dread of the mines as hinted by his unwillingness to go there and Saruman's narrative about knowing what awaits in the deep darkness there (Durin's Bane) and why Gandalf never seemed to converse this knowledge with the dwarf during the discussion on which path to take or indeed any other time in the film.
The Dwarves could have had their homeland back much sooner if Gandalf or Saurman had bothered to investigate yeeears before the war of the ring
Neither would have willingly faced the Balrog. + there were thousands of orcs in there.
King Dain Ironfoot begrudged Balin’s expedition. He adamantly held that Moria should be abandoned until likely signs or omens portended otherwise. He lent relatively little aid or men to the project, & resolved to give leave, only, to dissidents who desired to pursue its reclamation. It was oddly a staunch opposition for Dain, since Balin was a relative. He passively observed their progress for 4 or 5 yrs, never reinforcing their company, despite regular news of gains & good tidings. Even their abrupt silence, after a few yrs of promising tidings, did not stir him to muster aid for the expedition. It seems he was content to write them off when things suddenly portended ill w/ them.
@TheDeadlyKnight, ya gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...
I think it was less about "writing them off", and more about knowing that was a war the dwarves could never win, so not sending more of his people to their deaths. I doubt he was glad to see Balin fail in his mission.
@@VaryaEQ You’re right. Gloin definitely was still an interested Moria inquirer on Dain’s behalf at the Council. Gloin’s son’s party claims Balin’s colonial archives from Moria, to give to Dain. Gandalf explicitly states that “it will interest…” Dain, “….though it grieve him deeply”
"The goblin that is feared is better than the wolf that is heard" - so said Boromir after the Caradhras has defeted them, and him and the felloship are discussing what to do.
Thay all knew that Moria could be compromised, but been besieged by wolfs in the cold night of Caradhras they decided to take the path into Moria, an uncertain peril instead of a certain one.
Good video, keep it on!
The wolf that one hears is worse than the Orc that one fears.
So nobody of the Dwarves of Gimli's family was wondering or even remotely thinking that it is weird to hear absolutely nothing from your family?
But still think " If I show up with no message beforehand whatsoever, my cousin will still give a feast and we will party hard"...
Great video, as always!
They knew it was weird, but, for
1: nobody else probably dared going in there to find out.
2: these kind of things are not things you admit openly. They were rumors, and you never know what could have happen: maybe the way out was cut out from falling rocks, maybe the bridge fell down, and they had no good way to cross, etc.
@@jawstrock2215 Also gotta remember that communication technology was basically limited to mounted messangers at best for almost everyone in Middle Earth at the time, they could entirely believe that, given how much more dangerous things were getting on the roads, something Gloin mentions in the book, that any messages Balin did send simply got waylaid.
@@Lorekeeper72 That! The times were very different.
Maybe dwarves just aren't all that big on writing letters.
Excellent video! Since we're on the topic of dwarves and orcs, I'd love to see the history of Mt. Gundabad.
Without Balin, everything may have changed. With not even a faint hope of safe harbor, Gimli would not have pushed Gandalf to cross through Moria and the fellowship would’ve had to choose between the mountain path and risking capture by Saruman. Even if they can avoid Isengard, they don’t get to go to Lorien and Frodo doesn’t get the phial, which dooms him to Shelob. Best case, they manage to cross the mountains but Gandalf doesn’t get his upgrade from fighting the Balrog. Balin’s sacrifice laid the groundwork for ultimate victory.
+1000 XP for "Gandalf's upgrade". 😂 Other than that. That's pretty much what I think too.
Gimli didn't really "push" Gandalf. Unlike in the movie, in the novel, Gandalf was actually the one who proposed going through Moria after Caradhras defeated them, and it was Aragorn and pretty much all of the others except Gimli were loath to go anywhere near the place.
What??? Total BS!
@WestIndianAK Gimli also cautioned against it because he knew 'something' happened to Balin's party there.
Book , chapter and line as evidence please?@@eewweeppkk
If Balin had never tried to re-take Moria, it seems likely that Orcs would have continued to multiply there, but even the Orcs were terrified of the Balrog. Orc raids on Lothlorien and other settlements in the eastern foothills of the Misty Mountains would have likely increased, but it seems that the West gate was inaccessible even to Orcs due to the Watcher in the Water. My feeling is that the Balrog and the Watcher were not allied with any other force in the earlier centuries of the 3rd Age, although one wonders if Sauron might have enlisted them had he not been so weakened by losing the One Ring at the Battle of The Last Alliance. I am surprised that Dain never sent anyone to check up on Balin after the messages suddenly stopped 5 years after the colony was re-established. Is this lack of a follow-up on Dain's part just a plot element that JRRT never thought of, or was it deliberate, to leave Balin's fate a mystery for the Fellowship to solve on their own? Radagast's home at Rhosgobel was not very far from the East Gate at Moria, and it seems to me that Radagast should have heard at least a rumor of the battle that destroyed Balin's colony, and I wonder, why did Galadriel and the other members of the White Council not sense the awakening of the Balrog?
No body tosses a dwarf!!!
Through out the books gimli is one of the more complex characters and even in the movies he is portrait as a pure soul but you get a glimps of his deeper personality through out the story telling...
One of the things I like the most in the books is his and legolas relationship and ever growing understanding of the elf/dwarf fundamentals and growing respect, trust and friendship
I wish it hadn't been trimmed exclusively to the Director's Cut, because Jackson made it a point to demonstrate that Legolas was often dismissive of Gimli right up until he paid proper homage to Galadriel...and we immediately afterward get the scene in The Two Towers of him threatening to kill Eomer for threatening Gimli.
I do kind of hate how everyone worships the elves. They are total dicks in about every scene except for when galadriel was giving away gifts. Every other scene is a bunch of pompous twinks acting superior but being unwilling to help
I always chalked it up to Dwarves are so focused on their own thing to the point of almost selfishness so they just didn't bother to learn of news about Moria.
"We haven't heard from Moria in a while... eh I'm sure they are fine" _continues to forge his sword_
I remember reading Gimli was also at the meeting or was sent to ask about Balins and Co expedition.
Yes Gimli and his dad went to rivendell to find out any info about Balin and co not for a meeting like in the movie
@@LonewolfProd_ Legolas was there because Gollum was entrusted to their care after Aragorn captured him, but had escaped from the wood elves' prison. His dad, King Thranduil, sent him probably because he was too embarrassed to come himself and admit they buggered up. I can already hear Elrond berating him, "You had ONE JOB!" 😆
@@legionarybooks13
Considering how much I enjoyed Lee Pace’s portrayal of Thranduil…
I kinda wish we couldn’t seen Elrond give Thranduil a dressing-down for fucking up so bad.
You cannot simply dive into the depths of Moria
I’d absolutely be interested in a comparison about Gimli in the books vs movies.
One of the few issues I have with PJ's adaptation of Lord of the Rings is the decision to make Gimli the comic relief.
@@tmage23 Yeah, that’s what a lot of people are saying.
I think Gimli in the first PJ movie is the closest most dwarves should’ve been, in manner and characteristics cmmiiw
@@tmage23, if you think that's bad, compare the depiction of Faramir in the films to the books. It was a complete butcher job.
Read the books. Burn the movies. There, I fixed it for you.
If Balin hadn't gone to Moria, there would have been two significant changes in my opinion.
The first is that there would have been far less reason for Gimli to travel to Imladris for the Council and less reason to join the Fellowship if he had made the journey.
The second is that without Balin, the Fellowship would have been less likely to attempt traveling through Moria, and Durin's Bane would likely have never come so close to the surface as to interact with the Fellowship.
I'm not sure you can extrapolate a type of reality into a story like that
@@oftin_wong Why not? One of the good things about the legendarium is that Tolkien strived for as realistic a portrayal as possible once he had set up the background.
Moreover, the unknown fate of Balin provided an additional reason for readers to anticipate the trip through Moria. While from a dramatic point of view it need not have been Balin's fate, there needed some motivation for the Fellowship to attempt Moria beyond a desire to not wait for spring to open a pass over the Misty Mountains.
@@ernestcline2868
"as realistic a portrayal as possible".... Ok let's leave it there lol
@@oftin_wong For instance, Tolkien chose to have the Fellowship travel at realistic rates of travel through the imaginary landscape of Middle Earth.
@@ernestcline2868
oh realistic rates ?
To be more realistic lol?
I’ve watched this some many times and some people call Gimli a wuss for crying when he discovers Balins tomb. This part is the best part of the movie for me i feel Gimli’s grief I can feel his despair this doesn’t stop him from enacting revenge for his fallen kin.
There's also the issue that in the movie, Gandalf knew what they could be up against in Moria and didn't fucken tell anyone
"Gimli, your cousin is almost definitely dead at the hands of a Balrog if not the Orcs. Frodo, you get to decide how we die: on this mountain or under it"
Gandalf was always mad shady. Keeping secrets and withholding info left and right 😂
I think Gandalf knew that Gimli would just deny it and get offended and that it would've caused more harm than good. You know how stubborn dwarves are
"Hey Frodo, I think there is a shit load of orcs and a fucking fire demon in there"
Unlike Balin's mission of reconquest, the Fellowship is trying to get through Moria and out the other side by stealth. So movie Gandalf's motivation makes sense - there are orcs and a balrog down there, but hopefully we will get through and none will be any the wiser. As long as no-one does anything stupid to make some noise...
And it is clear in the film (and the book) that they don't have any other option. The pass over the mountains are blocked, Saruman has traced their route and will certainly catch them if they make it near Isengard. Going north will take too long and probably be as dangerous in its own way.
There is certainly an element in the book that people are not always given the full picture in case they are overcome with terror. The hobbits are warned to move quietly without rousing suspicion and avoid using the ring, but Gandalf doesn't tell them about undead wraiths who can see even through the ring's invisibility.
Book Gandalf seems surprised (or at least didn't know for sure) it was a Balrog until he encountered it, possibly thought it was another watcher/nameless prehistoric creature. I don't get the impression Saruman knew what it was, despite explicitly saying so in the film (for dramatic foreshadowing purposes).
Yeah well Gandalf didn't exactly mention the Ring Wraiths when it would have been helpful either in the movie.
I have a question. Why did the gate of Moria said "Moria" if it supposedly the name Moria was given by the elfs after the fall of kazad Dum by the Balrog as it is a name meaning "black pit" for how it became after the fall? =/
Tolkein's writings are somewhat inconsistent on what they meant in those passages, but given that it's called Moria occasionally BEFORE the fall, it seems that the elves simply called that because they did not like the dark underground dwellings of the dwarves. The dwarves, at any rate, do not object to the use of Moria as the common name, and regularly use it when talking with others. It is just that after the Fall of Khazad-Dum the elves ceased to refer to it by any other name.
I can't believe Balin and company got trapped in Moria. Maybe a forward Squad but not the whole company. In my head, a band of dwarves could defeat The Watcher at the water
Nobody tosses a dwarf!! This has always been one of my favorite tophics to talk about and nerd of. In my opinnion everything happend for a reason, if Balin never went to Moria who knows what kind of orc strongholds would have envolved there! Like this they managed to strike a great blow to Ors forces/ altough they all met their demise at the end.
James, its been a while since I wrote a comment on this channel I've had some ishues and I'm happy to be back and watching your videos and your love for Middle earth that we all share!
glad to have you back 💪
Azog sent me here! Moria has been one of the most interesting locations in middle earth. Ever since the first movie came out, I have wanted to learn more of this location
Legit Moria was so captivating as a kid. Imagining what the long dead halls used to look like in all of their glory. Being utterly terrified of what else could be creeping in the vacant tombs
Currently reading Lord of the rings for the first time(I have seen both trilogies and love them! ). Loving the Tom bombadil chapter!.
No one likes those chapters lol
I liked those chapters! I enjoyed his character as well as the lovely Goldberry!
Right wasn’t that just the best surprise when reading it for the first time. The whole time I was like “why didn’t we get this character!!!!” Lol I hope you enjoy the read.
Hopefully we make it to The Silmarillion!!
@@damianstasek8946 Lewis does and so do I.
Where did you get the pronunciations from? Isn't it Gloy-n and Oi-n not Glow-in and O-in?
Just sounds so weird to me your way...?
I would love to see a series being made about moria from the reclaiming, to the colonization, to the dramatic end, maybe closing on gimli mourning.
Then again, we had rings of power, I dont want them to ever touch Tolkiens work again.
It was bad enough that Jackson ruined it by changing the storyline, even though he lied and said he wouldn't do it!
He did know. He didn't know all the details but he knew Moria had fallen. You're conflating the films with the books.
nobody tosses a dwarf
when I re-read the Fellowship of the Rings I was really surprised that Gandalf actually wanted to go through Moria and it was Aragorn who proposed to try the passage over the mountains because he had a bad feeling about Moria because the movie version is so good and you usually watch it more often than reading the book you can quickly mix up what is the original and what is movie-only
I really did not like to potrail of Moria in the movies....they did not do it justice. But them I am a totall nerd when it comes to Moria....but I digress
Nobody tosses a dwarf, would love to see more about gimli
Well Done. Keep Up The Good Work👍👌💪
This has honestly often irritated me, in the books. It just feels weird, after several years of news, and then some time of nothing, that no one was sent to investigate. The Dearves certainly knew some of the risks involved, and Dain said he couldn't give his blessing for reasons, but to just act like they don't exist anymore seems too cold, and dour, and while I don't actually feel that's how Balin and Co were seen, waiting many years, and not investigating, just seems odd. Oh well.
Well, Gimli and Gloin were at Rivendell for the purpose of asking if the Elves had heard of Balin's Expedition just as much as to tell them of Sauron's offer.
Reading between the lines, it seems almost as if Dain forbade anyone to go looking for the missing dwarves, fearing that Durins Bane had taken them; and that Gloin and Gimli took advantage of someone needing to be sent to Rivendell to warn the elves that Sauron was up to no good to ask.
@@Dorsidwarf
Considering Dain only begrudgingly gave Balin his blessing to checkout Moria, it would not surprise me. Dain Ironfoot was a good king, but he was still a stubborn bastard of a dwarf.
I would think it would be possible to create tension without making the character who has the main pathos of the scene less intelligent. Or, if Gimli had reason to think it would be safe in Moria, he could talk to Gandalf about it.
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF !!
His hawk eyes and Fox ears must have let him down again.
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!!!!
no one tosses a dwarf
Nobody tosses a dwarf
Thank you for addressing this. I’ve heard it explained a few times but could never quite wrap my head around it.
The thing about the movie version is that this change introduces a few issues. In the movie, it's Gandalf that's certain that the mines of moria are really bad news.
How is it that he seems to know what, at least vaguely, what happened to the dwarves there but Gimli does not? You would think that Gimli would be keeping tabs on his kin and would have as much information as Gandalf.
Perhaps more importantly, why is it that Gandalf keeps his knowledge secret when they're debating the route to take? Withhold this kind of intel from the fellowship while making such an important decision seems very foolish. It would be one thing for the fellowship to take a calculated risk. It's a whole other thing for them to just blindly stumble into a hazard they would have been alert to with nothing more than basic communication.
Gandalf had been through Moria once before and, while he almost certainly never encountered the Balrog in the flesh, he probably senses that an evil far greater than orcs still dwelt there and concluded that any attempt by a small party of Dwarves to re-establish their kingdom there was doomed. However, that was long before Balin went there, so he couldn't know for certain what had happened to him, but probably had a strong suspicion.
As for why he withheld this information, it was because he thought Moria was less risky than traveling right by Isengard, so he didn't want the Ringbearer to be frightened into making the wrong choice. Either Gandalf or Elrond said at some point that if the Hobbits had any real idea of the dangers they were facing they'd never have undertaken the quest.
Note that Aragorn had also been to Moria and didn't want the Fellowship to take that route but he also wouldn't tell anything about the dangers to be expected.
I don't know if you have already done this but listening to one of the audio book readers on TH-cam, it posed a question: what would have happened in your view if Gandalf's letter to Frodo had been delivered as intended. I have not the organised imagination that you possess and cannot answer this question with the justice it merits. If of course you have hypothesised this, could you link or give me the vid title as I'm a bit autistic and usually go the long way round when looking for something. Thanks
I have a question for you. If Frodo's mithril armor could stop a spear wielded by a troll, why couldn't it stop Shelob's stinger?
I’m not an expert, and this is only a guess, so ignore it if anything better comes along, but Shelob is the spawn of Ungoliant, who was at one point briefly powerful enough to send MORGOTH (essentially this setting’s ultimate evil) running like a little bitch. Mithril might just not have been enough to stop her. Of course, if the mithril wasn’t damaged, maybe we are to assume her stinger was pointed enough to slip between the rings of the shirt.
Nobody tosses a Dwarf.... ehhh, don't tell the elf.
They really need to do a movie on " The Semelirium ( I may of spelled it wrong ) but the movie just has to be made , someday I hope!?!
Silmarillion (Tale of the Simarils)
i think balin and company did a good job of keeping orc numbers down around moria for a long time too, lestening the number sumonable to mirkwood or orthnac. i cannot imagine a single dwarf head going for less than 50 orc ones
Agreed Nobody Tosses A Dwarve ❤❤️🔥
Book Gimli : "Listen to wisdom Gandalf. Something wrong has gone there. We shouldn't risk it" Gandalf : "Naaah buh, chill yo! It's alright an' sheit".
Movies Gimli : "Hairy women EEEHEHEHEHE"
The movies don't make things particularly clear, but anyone who reads the books can answer this question. The night before the Council of Elrond, Frodo is seated next to a Dwarf whose name I can no longer recall. They talk briefly about events in Dale and Erebor, but during the council the next day, everything is made clear. You don't need to dig through the appendices, you don't need to read between certain lines and squint your eyes, while jumping on one leg and interpreting chosen passages in a specific way, while gargling salt-water... No, you just need to read what the Dwarves say during the Council of Elrond.
Yay I'm first. Finally
When you read the book, it makes sense and when you watch the movied it does too. All you have to remember is that we're talking about a lot of miles across difficult and often hostile terrain. That any word ever got through is impressive.
So Balin was arrogant and foolhardy? Things would have been no different if Balin had never tried to take Moria, because the orcs would have entered unopposed. You could argue that they would never have gotten in, but why did the dwarves not simply shut the door when Balin was shot? The place was clearly not unassailable.
Nobody tosses a dwarf 🪓🔨🧔♀️
This always bothered me about the films. In the books, they pretty much know what the deal is in Moria well before entering - it is KNOWN (although not to what degree or how bad).
Gloin not Glowen 🤦🏼♂️ you Britts say Oi do you not? Or is it spelled oy? Whichever the case thats how its pronounced
Why didn't Gandalf just have the eagles fly Frodo and the ring to Mount Doom in the first place???
I think the bigger question is why did they change it from Gandalf wanting to pass through Moria and Gimli opposed like in the books to the other way around
It was aragon not gimili that was against it in the book until they tried the mountain pass atleast first and boromir wanted to through the gap of rohan which gandalf was against.
@@jfyfkidfidfifiyfiyifyfyify9171 Yeah because Aragorn said that his experience in Moria was very evil,and he was against going through again until they had no other choice.
In the books, no one wanted to go through Moria. Gandalf did figure they had to do it though. Gimli certainly did not want to go in there but he definitely was a help to Gandalf during the journey into Moria.
Knowing what I know now is that I think the *bigger problem* for the movie version of accounts in that moment *is the fact that Gandalf knew,* specifically, that the Balrog was there or at least lurking somewhere as a potential threat, and likely a/the reason the Dwarves had stopped communication. It was in fact considered so dangerous that Gandalf encouraged the group to push on through the snowstorm.
Why would Gandalf, as old and wisely respected as he was, withhold the sheer danger? He didn't say anything, just allowed Gimli to babble on about how hospitable his kin there would be.
What I'd want to know is why the Balrog didn't show up till the party were trying to find a way through the Goblin hordes, and how/why they all fled as fast and far away from the Balrog since they are both servants to darkness? Or why the Dwarves, having been in Moria for a few years, did not disturb the Balrog?
I literally just went threw a lotr binge and I was thinking about this. So many questions 😂
I believe "Moria" is pronounced with a rolling R, not the soft-R of English.
(Of course there's no rule that says that names have to always be pronounced precisely as they are pronounced in their original language.)
I just wonder what the Dwarves expected to do for food. Not much hunting or farming in that area. Did they just have 50 years' worth of beef jerky?
*Spoiler alert*.... He didn't know cause he didn't have a smartphone to call his cousins in Moria!!
Aragorn tosses a dwarf! lol
This story deserves its own movie.
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!?!
They literally pronounce their names jn the films how are you still not being able to pronounce them correctly 😅
I just always interpreted it as: Dwarfes are so Introverted that no one outside their City noticed them not leaving it in Yeahrs
If it suddenly went quiet and they stopped sending the other dwarves updates about how it was going in Moria . Did none of the other dwarves think to physically go and check what was happening?
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF, I'm not sure if I'm subscribed yet but I enjoy your channel... An you've got a new subscriber if I'm not a subscriber already...
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF, I'm not sure if I'm subscribed yet but I enjoy your channel... An you've got a new subscriber if I'm not a subscriber already...
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!!!
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!!!!
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!!!
Other than Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, Heir of Isildur, and the true King of Gondor 🤣
Does any book actually address why Gimli and company didn't go to/through Moria on their way to Rivendell for the council meeting from the Lonely Mountain? I find it odd that Gimli would want to check it out with the Fellowship but not want shortly before while journeying with his kin.
No, but we can guess. If I remeber correctly (and I might not), Glóin and Gimli traveled alone to Rivendell.
It would not be wise for 2 Dwarves alone to go to Moria, despite the possibility of finding their people alive; specially if they were suspicious about going there.
Aside from being just the 2 of them, Moria is a long ways out of the way from a trip to Rivendell.
@@jkbookie1274 Good point; going through Moria would have been a LONG way out of Gloin and Gimli’s way going from Erebor to Rivendell and they were in a hurry, due to the imminent threat of war with the Easterlings.
It would’ve been another 175 or so miles additional and getting to Rivendell was important. A messenger had been sent from Mordor twice, and that was more important. That Sauron was offering rings again.
It would have been hundreds of miles out of the way, through dangerous territory.
Obviously the dwarves who died there... died.
So they couldn't tell the folks back in Erebor.
It's really that simple.
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF!
If Balin had gone to Khazad Dum after Gandalf had killed the Balrog, then he would of been successful. But the time-line ruined that anyway. Sad really as he was a great character!😢😊 One of the originals from, 'The Hobbit', from one of the great creations of the Master himself, J.R.R.Tolkien'!❤😊
Dáin ironfoot did not see Dûrin's Bane. He felt it's power, evil and terror when he looked into the darkness. Every dwarf knew that something far worse than orcs and trolls was lurking there. It had driven the mightiest of the 7 clans of dwarves out, after all, but they did not know what it really was. The end of the first age was some 5,000-10,000 years in a long forgotten past. Balrogs were the name of terrors that had been destroyed at the end of the first age, right? Right? RIGHT???
Very few living elves in Middle Earth had ever seen a balrog by that point. Let's everyone know just how old Legolas really was, that he recognised it right away. Even Gandalf did not know what it was until that moment. He'd never seen one, after all, at least in his existence as a wizard, but he knew what a balrog was.
PS: the movies were one of the worst things I've ever seen done to a literary masterpiece by Hollywood.
Nobody Tosses a Dwarf
They didn’t have Twitter.
Bailin @theRealBailin 1h
Dug too deep. Overrun by hundreds of thousands of goblins. They have trolls. Also there is a balrog. At least there were no elves.
A great video and while I haven't read much of Tolkin's work I have read some of the core books and have enjoyed the films both trilogies too and that scene of finding the remains of Balin's tomb definitely hit differently for me. Not only do you see how it hits Gimli but it hits the audience as well sense we've seen The Hobbit story fully fleshed out and know just how wise, brave, and kind Balin was to all he called kin and friend truly a great loss for both Middle Earth but for us as fans.
I’m seriously wondering if this guy has an experience with the IPs he talks about. We know from the movies his name is Gloin, we know how to pronounce it. This guy, his name is Glowin. Why dude, why? 🤦♂️
Nobody tosses a dwarf
Nobody tosses a dwarf
Lots of younger people don’t know what it was like pre internet and cell phone. Back in the day you didn’t know where anyone was you just knew where they weren’t. Your employers and friends and family all feel entitled to know where you are at all times nowadays. This is a medieval fantasy setting where no such things exist and the dwarves in this world are secretive and prude so with those two elements it never occurred to me why gimli didn’t know exactly what went wrong with the dwarven expedition. He just knew they didn’t come back. It doesn’t really require any suspension of disbelief when you consider it
"Glo-in", man that's awful pronunciation of Gimli's fathers name, it should be more like a "Gloyn" sound, if your going to try to talk about Tolkien's work at least pronounce it correctly as JRR Tolkien was a professor of philology and wrote his story to flesh out the languages he invented, all the pronunciations are given in his books
NOBODY TOSSES A DWARF! Also, absolutely love your content mate, much appreciate, keep it up ^^
i know the way everyone pronpunces Gloin is probably wrong... but there aint NO WAY thar "Glowin'" is correct. Even if it is, i refuse. My boy aint a firefly 😭