Amusingly for the PRS comments: I went to a private school with PRS's kids, and he would hang back some Factory Seconds for the school's yearly fundraising auction. They would always mention that *most* of them were destroyed, but *this* one had only a few minor cosmetic issues and was kept for this auction.
I have a B stock E-II Horizon 7 string. It has a tiny, practically invisible ding on the rear of the body. It took me ages just to spot it! I'm glad ESP didnt decide to run it through a bandsaw to preserve their "brand identity."
I love my Edwards Jazz bass. Way better than AmProII I was initially looking at. Fender builds those US bass like a Squier. ESP got it right. I won't buy an LTD though.
I have a B stock LTD Viper Baritone. The only thing I could spot was a shallow scratch in the fretboard. Something I could easily steam out, but I don't care since its at the end of the board. Thanks for the savings on a discontinued guitar, ESP!
The main reason for the difference in price between the Jackson USA Custom Shop and the Kiesel is you can only get a Jackson USA Custom Shop guitar through an authorized Jackson dealer. Therefore, with Jackson, there’s a retail mark-up. Kiesel, on the other hand, sells their guitars direct to their customers at factory-direct prices. Whereas with Jackson, the dealers have to get their slice of the pie.
@Chris_Lohmann That's true. To go even furrher, Let's also look at the aftermarket prices. The jackson USA products will hold their value a lot more than a kiesel. That's something that i think should have been brought up. Kiesels lose almost or some cases, more than half of it's value after being bought. They're not as sought after as a Jackson, ESP USA or PRS.
@@Chris_Lohmann Not just Jackson, every custom shop builder sells exclusively via an authorized dealer. Kiesel is AFAIK the only relatively known manufacturer that sells factory direct to the customer. You can't call up PRS or ESP or EBMM and order a custom guitar or even a production model from the factory, as a private customer. This business model drives the prices up.
@@greekfreak1980 Yes, I know. I made the comparison between Jackson and Kiesel because that was the comparison made in the video. I was surprised KDH didn’t mention the retail aspect as a reason for the huge difference in price. Kiesel uses the factory-direct model because they’ve always done it that way. Despite being less well-known, they’re older than Jackson, ESP, Ernie Ball Music Man, etc. Their name has changed a couple times (remember, they were Carvin for a while), but they’ve been around in one form or another since 1946. I’m glad they’re around. I think they’re a great alternative to the bigger, more expensive brands.
Honestly, it's kind of brilliant. Because guitar collectors can pretend that their B-stock mod shop guitar is some kind of unicorn and not spray painted trash.
@@_NoDrinkTheBleach It's a little bit of both, which is why I think Gibson hasn't really done much about the finish QC. The typical Gibson player isn't looking for a pristine finish. They can't wait for their guitar to get some "character" as they call it. Something that sets it apart from everyone else's Les Paul, SG, or Explorer, etc. I've owned a couple Gibsons, they all had dings and imperfections (not out of the factory, but over the course of me owning them), and I've never had to reduce the price when I sold them. Gibson players love dings, scratches, and imperfections on their guitars. I play mostly Ibanez now, and if an Ibanez is a little beat up, the seller has to reduce the price or no one will buy it. Got a great Prestige RG1570 a few years ago for $600 because it has some dings on the body that you can't even see from the stage. You actually have to be looking at it up close to see them. I think with Gibson players, it's just that old road dog mentality of having a great, but beat up guitar.
@ i just got a brand new SG that left the factory 2 months ago. Paid 2500 and its exactly what I want, no “QC” problems, no tuning issues, or anything else people complain about. I think people who can’t afford 2500$ make up a lot of lies to tell themselves why they don’t want an expensive guitar. I remember thinking my epiphones were good enough when i was broke too.
Guitar isn't dying, but price corrections for luxury guitars are happening. Right now, I'm getting 25% off offers from sellers for high end guitars on Reverb. If retailers can cut the price by a quarter like nothing, it's obvious pricing still needs to come down.
Yea, if you have cash, just like something similar on Reverb and you will almost always get an offer from someone else in 24 hours or less. I buy a lot from a large retailers in the UIS and they have always treated me well but discounts aren't as great as they use to be there. I got a quote for a guitar that was $2800... got like 10% off. I had liked a similar guitar on Reverb and got an offer for one just like I was looking at with a better flamed maple top for $1700 from a smaller shop. Seller was super cool and even did a full setup before sending to the specs I asked for...
I agree that people naturally want something others dont have. To curb this feeling within myself, i turn to modifying my guitar in unique ways. Instead of spreading my money across multiple guitars, I go nuts with my one and only. Why not right. So I've done things like buying a 2nd set of schaller locking tuners so i could two-tone the gold hardware with black elements - looks sick! I could go on and on, but it's a lot of things like that. A little goes a long way ☆
It's a good mindset. After all, EvH changed history with what was effectively a parts-bin guitar he threw together. Having a super expensive custom guitar means little other than a status symbol and nothing to do with the skill of the player.
@@noggintube and now people pay thousands to get something like that "exact guitar" that he threw together out of inventive individuality! I always thought that was extremely ironic looking at frankenstrat copies. totally missing the point of why it's cool!
Wanted a guitar with that 'rose gold', vibe that Gibson had done by using a mix of chrome and gold hardware for everything down to the pickup pole pieces (works better when chrome is the primary with gold to accentuate. Using gold as the primary hid the chrome unfortunately - tried it both ways just to be sure which is best). Modification is where it's at! Especially these days, the aftermarket guitar parts world has gone crazy with what's available. Some people wear jewelry to accessorize, we accessorize our guitars.
@@theharvardyard2356 yeah that makes me laugh too. In interviews with EVH, his whole attitude to guitar was trying not to sound like other people. I realise people are inspired by him, but sometimes it's good to try to have some personality in your instrument and music. I personally like buying the Harley Benton kits - affordable and not bad quality at all for the price point. I can then shape and build to my own spec and just enjoy them for what they are. Have sold a few for more than the build cost, and with no name on the headstock people don't have the stigma of a cheap brand, even though it plays fine.
Same here. If they were flawed and Gibson didn't want them on the market, making the company's quality control look bad, they should have chistled out the Gibson name inlay on the headstocks and then donated them to a music program. Wouldn't it be cool in school kids were learning how to play guitar in music class instead of learning how to play Mary had a Little Lamb on recorders?
You live in the US? If yes, then you should already know money is worshipped as a god in this country. The folks at Gibson are getting a nice hefty write off through creative accounting practices so they don't care. You American capitalism lovers are getting what you deserve and by destroying these guitars goes hand-in-hand with that system. Wait and see what happens in the near future with this country being run by billionaire oligarchs.
I think the coolest guitar imaginable is just a well gigged, well loved off-the-shelf guitar. A guitar that some player has made special by playing it for years or decades and thousands of hours.
I dunno why I mention this but... I once worked in a restaurant where the owner bragged to me about the insurance on his car costing more than my annual income. I suppose my point is: some people are so rich AND stupid, you're better off not thinking about it.
You don't have to be really rich to buy a guitar for $5k, it's just about priorities. Look at other instruments like violins, $5k are nothing there and most violinists are not super rich.
I work at Guitar Center and I can say this. Items go on clearance to try to get them out of the store or sell the remaining warehouse stock. Usually the clearance price is just above cost but it’s not uncommon for it to be at or below cost. It all depends how much corporate wants something to move
@ it can go either way. Too many used guitars in the market can drive the price down due to an over abundance. You’re already seeing guitar shops turn down buying used guitars because they’re just too many. People would buy them and not worry because most of the time you could get a good chunk of your money back. Well not anymore.
Sometimes there's something you REALLY want. For example, I think Moderne's are cool and Gibson just re-released the Moderne with the Gumbi headstock. I don't have $9,000 for a guitar because that's ridiculous, but if it was say $2,000 I might be looking at some gear and thinking about trying to move some things along.
Aristedes is one that usually has a 6-12 month wait, but they have a truly unique product. The only company that sells a multi scale evertune, and their proprietary material.
Watched their behind the scene videos and its easy to see why there's a wait. I commend them for keeping their eye on quality and slowly expanding to meet demand.
Just bought my Epi Les Paul 60s Standard in Iced Tea for $300 used from my local mom and pop shop. They spent an hour setting it up for me. Guitars aren't too expensive... it's the best time ever to be a guitar player...
Regardless of anyone's opinion of Kiesel Guitars or their polarizing owner, they have at the very least pulled back the veil on US custom shop pricing. Even as their prices and wait times creep up, they're still an extreme value against other companies.
@@_NoDrinkTheBleach Kiesel is by far the best value in custom shop builds. I ordered a T-style model and it came out flawless. Would love to get another one next time they do a pick your top livestream.
Agreed. I've owned 31 guitars in 50 yrs of playing, 7 were used from Ebay all under $250 dollars, that I refurbished. Three Gibsons that were junk, one with the bridge in the wrong place, that i had to relocate. The last 7 have been NEW Kiesels, built how I want them, 5 of them were under $2K pre-covid. The last two during / after covid $2260. Great fret work, low low action if you want it. Impeccable finishes. You just can't beat Kiesel.
Kiesel prices are lower compared to other custom shop builders, mainly because of their factory-direct sales model. There´s no middle man with a dealer involved, you pay for the guitar and in case of us overseas customers, you also pay for shipping/import taxes, wich absolutely sucks. With any other custom shop builder, you pay for the guitar and you pay for the dealer putting in the order & doing the paperwork for you. And they rip you off big time for their services. It´s kinda similar with luxury cars, where the dealers mark the cars up. Hell, even regular production Made in USA/ Japan models have gone so much up in price, it´s ridiculous.
“I know what's wrong with it. It's a Ford. You know what they say Ford stands for, don't ya? It stands for 'Fix it again, Tony'.” - Dale Gribble (RIP) King of the Hill.
Yeah this video is so on point! I just came to embrace the fact that guitars in the 3K$+ (or in my case 5 Israeli digits) are just a luxury market that I don't see myself get involved in, and decided to focus on bettering myself as a guitar player while sticking to instruments that play great and resonate with me for a good price. My favorites that I'm now using in the building stages of a professional career are Ibanez Premiums (and my main one is a B stock!) and late 80's-early 90's MIJ Ibanez guitars, I resonate with them so much that I don't feel like I need anything higher end or western. Paying too much makes you value it monerarily too much and be afraid to use the guitar to its limits. Out of all the 3K$+ guitars out there the only ones I tried that are genuinely worth it are Mayones and local builders like OD, and the only ones I think I'll ever buy are some rare and special Jems ;)
These guitar manufacturers could simply stamp "EDU" on the headstock and donate these guitars to schools. Imagine learning how to play on a PRS or Les Paul via your highschool band class, and when you're able to buy your own guitar you're already used to the playability of a PRS or Gibson, so that's what you become a lifetime supporter of.
The Hermès Birkin hand bag is the quintessential example of luxury scarcity. In order to buy one, you have to have a significant demonstrated history of buying other bags from them. Rich people go bananas for these things. Their prices make expensive guitars look like kids toys in comparison.
It’s the same thing with watches as well. Some people go apeshit crazy for Rolexes. While they are good, precise and long lasting watches, they are no more special than your Longines, or Tissot. Yeah they may have a better finish, but it’s nothing like going for some crazy watchmaker’s product
@@benedekgabor.its more specific to models, I can get an explorer any day but I need to buy about 10 explorer level watches to be allowed to buy a submariner
My Mexican fenders are great. The Mexican factory is turning out better quality as time goes by. My second hand Gibson les Paul standard is great. Second hand Gibsons go for 2/3 to 3/4 of new price. Even custom shop models can be acquired at good second hand prices. The guitar world is saturated with product. Except for the period of the pandemic demand will never match supply. Fender and Gibson are competing with themselves. There’s no actual scarcity only artificial scarcity. Patience in building a collection is a virtue. Eventually guitars you want come to the second hand market.
The simple answer is that a percentage of people on the planet have unlimited discretionary funds. There are enough of them that you can push the absolute limits of pricing and there will be a group that uses FOMO / shopping therapy to be the first or to have the best. So some brands have a product for this group. That's it. Simple.
Jackson can't lower the 2 year wait, but they'll launch two new lines of USA built guitars that I believe are in the same exact factory lol. They're the Nintendo of guitar builders.
@@michaelr.4878 Silly thing to be pedantic about. Pretty sure they acquired Jackson but they're still effectively separate entities. They have to ask each other for permission to use anything either company has a patent on still.
Funny thing is, their custom shop or even the "select line" series crush the American series, having owned both myself. I bought a used 2017 Jackson Dk1 for 2k (They go for 3.5k brand new) and it is perfect. I'm also not a fan of kiesel guitars though. Just not my vibe and don't like the feel.
Probably not. I've had my guitars all looked after by the local tech, they're all great. I've gone into a store and played the expensive guitars, like up to $4500. They just felt like guitars. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@ruggie.74 Was your Eclipse professionally set up? Like the frets all leveled and polished, perfectly set up with the strings and action that work best for you? Having my cheap guitars done completely changed them and I don't have a desire for expensive guitars.
It'd have to be a guitar you really want and to your style. I have a few mid range guitars around $1K-$2K that are well setup and a Tom Anderson Angel that was around $5K and you can tell in hand why it was that much. It's not twice as good as my other guitars, but every time I play it after play my other guitars I get that "I get it" feeling again. That being said. I'd still rather have one higher end guitar vs 2-3 decent guitars.
I understand a company not wanting to release inferior products. Destroying them rather than putting them out on the market somewhere, to lower the reputation of the company actually.
The virgin "no B-stocks, cut them in half" Paul Reed Smith vs the chad "paint them salmon pink and sell them as resq:d for sustainability" Ola Sandberg But yeah, I worked for a watch company in the lower luxury tier, and there were a few times when I had to destroy some unsold stock. But at least there it ment disassembling them to reuse as much as possible
I was in guitar guitar in Guildford, Surrey last year and I noticed they had a Kirk H Flying V for £15000. It was hanging up by the door. By The Door. Only in a nice place like Surrey would that not end badly. I noted that in the Newcastle branch the spendy axes were at the back of the shop!:)
One big difference though is that Kiesel are a direct-to consumer brand, so they cut out the middle man, Jackson & ESP for example sell via retailers which wants a 50% margin, like Axe Palace in this video, so if Kiesel would have had the same business model, then they would have been significantly more expensive.
I’ve been a pro touring and session bassist for over 45 years, most recently the touring bassist for the Motown group The Miracles. I’ve been able to play every luxury bass under the sun. What’s my gigging basses? My 1978 Fender P and 74 J bass. All original equipment. In the end I’ve never seen the advantage of these expensive boutique basses. You’ll never have an issue with a P or J and bringing some boutique basses into a session can get you fired or your track dumped.
To some extent, this "luxury" philosophy is being done for stock production guitars at Rickenbacker! Theirs is a pure CNC operation, nothing custom. But they have high prices and a considerable waiting list. They could take steps to decrease the wait and also to reduce the prices, but they don't want to. And perhaps it makes sense for them? This manufactured unavailability serves to perpetuate the "Rickenbacker mystique". I used to have one, it's not that great :D
Kurt Ballou used to play a heavily customized Rickenbacker and I recall a lot of people on Harmony Central giving his review (which included all the mods performed) negative responses. A factory Rick with an EMG 81 would be killer.
Jackson and Charvel Custom Shop is in the same building as Fender Custom Shop! And when I say 'the same building' I literally mean just a different desk on the shop floor!
i’m glad that you can get guitars nowadays for 500 that feel like guitars that used to cost $1200 15 years ago. I’m very thankful that I focus more on feel and playability than just how expensive a top is or how rare it is because these prices are insane. You could buy a car for the same price as a lot of those guitars. Granted whoever buys those probably is a millionaire so it’s probably still just a drop in the bucket. If you’re a regular middle class American buying these then more power to you but I just cannot understand it one bit at all. One thing I don’t think anyone can deny is that if you put that $8600 guitar in your hands and play it you’re not gonna think oh wow this is definitely $8600 worth of guitar. You’ll think maybe this is $3000 worth Guitar or $2000 worth of guitar.
In Gibsons defense in this rare case - IIRC, the guitars were destroyed due to them having an insurance claim. Something about them being “unsalvagable” - and that they couldn’t donate them. (Gibsons donates tons of guitars to charity already) likely they found some loophole where one caught fire with the crazy electronics, and figured filing a damage/loss claim was the best way to go. As for PRS. I believe most of the stuff that’s destroyed/discarded are for functional issues. Not simple finish blemishes. Cause in that case, they’d just refinish the guitar. But KDH is 100% spot on with the scarcity/luxury view. Lack of supply supports demand. That’s why you always see lines at a club. It’s better to have 200 people inside, and 200 outside, than everyone (despite a loss of sales and entry fees) because it draws more demand. Same deal with restaurants. You WANT a wait list. It makes people think “If people are waiting in line, it must be worth it”
Most of what high end guitar pricing discussion online comes to is people reverse engineering and going full spectrum mode on specs and value and debate over prices and blah blah blah. The real question is, do you want something, is it worth it to YOU, and are you willing to wait for a good thing? If the answer is no, the guitar isn't made for you. I also think there is a certain element of self-convincing people have over guitar prices. They can't afford these guitars, so they're going to shit on them cause it's easier for them psychologically.
If you want to buy a new Rolex watch at a dealer, they'll put you on a multi year wait list even if you have cash in hand and they have a watch available. The only way to speed up the wait is to buy thousands of $ in other jewelry and hope they take you seriously. Their sales are fantastic but it's burning up their reputation long term. As annoying as Jackson's strategy is, it could be worse.
Adding onto the fact that the Jackson custom shop has had similar delays for a long time. Back in I believe the early 2000s, Alexi Laiho's Jackson Vs were stolen. When he contacted Jackson, they couldn't get him new guitars in time so ESP built the replacements. That was over 20 years ago. Makes you wonder how long people like Marty Freidman and Jeff Hanneman had to wait back in the 80s and 90s.
I saw a Jeff Hanneman guitar at ESP shop in Tokyo for around $4000, I asked how much for the same guitar, but I want the headstock flipped and don't call it Jeff Hanneman model, I just want the exact same ESP guitar . They said then it's $8000. The ESP M-II for $3000 ( at the time ) was great though, you could tell the difference between that and an E-II version as soon as you picked it up. Neck on M-II was fantastic.
Nice video. 2 things: concerning destroying products that don't meet the standards. That is common practice. You wouldn't want to buy a washing machine, car, TV, computer,... that 'may or may not 'break down after 2 years, even if they gave you a discount. So there are QC throughout the production process and whenever items fail that test they are taken out and repaired or destroyed. Companies don't want substandard products to end up with consumers. No matter how hard they would market them as 'cheaper because of the defaults but we do want to offer people the option to get one of our products for a cheaper price', they still would loose their quality reputation and therefor choose to discard those items. Concerning the prices of Kiesel: don't forget to add your local VAT! The prices they give you are ex vAT. Not sure about Jackson since those prices were on the website of your local dealer and may already include VAT. Still, the difference is massive of course :)
thank god i became my own custom shop when i was 18 and built my first partscaster because fender didnt sell the strat i wanted. 10+ years later all my guitars are partscasters ive built to my own specs.
There's a few things missed here. 1. Jackson has middle men vendors you need to go through. Keisel doesn't. That reduces prices for Kiesel. 2. Jackson has mkre brand recognition and is a mkre established brand with a 'storied history' associated with famous guitarists, so that increases the price. 3. Jackson has to share the paint booth with Fender so that slows production down. 4. The MSRP price listed on the Axe Palace or similar places isn't what you pay for the guitar. I spec'ed a Custom Shop Warrior and the final price came down to around $4800. That's still expensive but the prices havr definitely gone up due to inflation. The $8k you see here is a ridiculous price. 5. Jacksons will hold their value more than Kiesels, so more people will buy them, which means sustained demand. 6. Artificial scarcity. Fender could hire more people and give Jackson its own paint booth but they see people still buying the Custom Shops so why would they change It'll only change when the orders reduce considerably.
Inventory taxes are looming for a lot of these retailers. They need to move the high end products. That's why you have to special order expensive stuff these days because many retailers and distributors cannot have this expensive stuff in their inventory for fear of inventory taxes.
The RRP of a lot of things has become quite skewed by the less than fantastic situation for brick and mortar retailers. As a manufacturer that has a lot of wholesale customers that work like this you aren't going to set the RRP of your product at a place that means they makes it too hard for them to make money that just shoots your business model in the foot. This is why you can see music shops selling things at 50% off, why you can often find them online from someone warehousing them rather than running a retail store offering 20 or 30% off without issue. Everyone is just playing to make the most they can. Rarely does anyone pay that full RRP unless they are desparate or rich enough to just not care/have a thing for a certain shop. Anyway, make your own guitars, its more fun than any you'll ever buy.
I think what were seeing is what's happening in every other industry. Almost every large corporation at any given time has some clearance sale, newsletter sign on discount or something of that nature going on and it gets to a point where if you're buying a given product full price you're basically getting ripped off and unfortunately it seems like the guitar market is headed in that direction.
Just a small note that, if you're ordering a custom guitar and see a large mark up for stainless steel frets, they are considerably harder and more time consuming to work with, especially on a maple fingerboard. Keisel are clearly being generous with that so don't expect to see that kind of thing across the board (if you'll forgive the pun)
I don't care about the stupid drama with the owner, Kiesel makes incredible guitars, especially for the price. Speccing out something really nice costs a third the price it would for Gibson, Fender or PRS and none of those brands come standard with stainless steel frets and carbon fiber reinforcements. I've also had great experience with their customer service.
Wings of Pegasus and KDH are probably our best journalists. And not just for guitar and music. Period. I wouldn't want either of these dudes sniffing around my dirty underwear. Great work gents!
Not all higher end brands do these things...Strandberg has used the wood that may not meet the standards for a guitar with a clear finish (knots or other wood disfigurement) and made the RESQ:D line that had solid color finishes and even had a customer poll to pick colors. In addition, they have a great line of B-stock guitars on their Reverb store. I have bought two Strandberg guitars from the B-stock store and I have never been able to determine what made them B-stock. They were SIGNIFICANT discounts (30%+). It comes down to a company philosophy that drives this. The ridiculous thing is the the US government actually incentivizes companies to DESTROY merchandise rather than donate it because they get more money back. The luxury market has NOTHING to do with what it costs to make the guitar. It is all about what someone is willing to pay. Look at the vintage market. Objectively, the ridiculous prices are driven by nostalgia and scarcity - certainly not quality, etc.
I had this same problem. I had about 2k to spend on a guitar, and I had a Gibson Sg in my cart at Sweetwater, and I just had something telling me not to pull the trigger on it. Flash forward about two years later, I have a custom made guitar from a local luthier that was the same price, and a much better build. Do your research, and don't rush into buying something because everyone else has one and theirs is expensive.
I do remember your videos about Kiesel back in the day....Good points as always. Having said that, Kiesel are the best guitars I ever bought and played in terms of value from money.....Immaculate. Hell, even my Carvins from 86 are great :) BTW all my Kiesels arrived within 2-3 months, last one this year.
Dingwall is definitely the most egregious example of a brand where the demand is still very high and their prices are going UP! Their base bass models are around $2700-2800USD. About a decade ago, Dingwall were around $1400-$1600
The price and wait time are there to deter the uninitiated. Keeping the custom shop stuff exclusive. Like you said, very much intentional. Like Ferrari, you need to buy a few base models before you get a big one.
Kiesel Guitars are by far the best price for "luxury" instruments. I havn't bought one yet, but I was given a very nice A2 by a friend. And it's impeccable!
PRS and Gibson would grow A LOT if they did "b stock" type of deals. If I can buy a PRS that retails for $4k but because it has a blemish in the paint or wood design looks weird painted for $2.5k I'd take it. Gibson and PRS are for looks now. Any other brand can make better products that sound better and better made. Got a newish Jem Jr. for $300 and a new PIA for $2600 this month. I'm all set got axes for now
3:33 i would need serious heavy duty therapy if i was told to do this. In the beginning on 2023 i wss absolutely dying to have a holoflake finish, but i also wanted 24¾"/25" scale and a recessed TOM bridge. My only options were kiesel and warmoth. Lol the holoflake option from kiesel alone cost more than the entire body(with holoflake) from warmoth. I went with warmoth. I got ⅞ build(24 frets/24¾" scale) mahogany body, HH, wizard neck profile, SS jumbos, SD pickups, flamed roasted maple neck with reverse headstock. It 100% feels expensive AF and i love it. Warmoth is the shiz...
Le Creuset are one of the most egregious examples of faux scarcity. They make pots and pans... good ones with great after sales care yes, but they're still just cooking pots. Yet there's a constant stream of limited releases specifically to get people to buy multiple of a stock pot that they already own
Another key thing to remember about destroying these defective guitars (not the Firebird example, that was just pathetic of Gibson), specifically when a defect is non-repairable early in the process, is that they will lose $, resources, and time (which is all $), if they continued manufacturing a guitar that wouldn't turn a profit. Sure they could donate them in that state, but in most instances it would be a completely gutted guitar with no finish that no program would be willing to buy parts for, spray a finish on it, and build it all - when they can just go purchase an entry-level guitar for way less that would be functional.
Between 2.000 and 5.000 bucks I could go to my local guitar builder and can have basically anything I want. On top of that I'd be involved in the building process and can make changes in real time. I really don't get why I should order a custom guitar from a huge manufacturer.
Well the same reason you might go to a specific luthiere beyond your local guy. Reputation. I'm more comfortable sending a down-payment to Benedetto and waiting a year for one of their guitars over a random local archtop builder because of the experiences I've had with their product and the trust I've developed between me and them. That's not to say anyone shouldn't go to your local luthiere or builder just that there are reasons beyond just specs.
The CNC machine has been the great equalizer. So long as the worker's skill is up to par the resulting guitar can be a very nice instrument. If you were to put on a blindfold and be given the domestic & overseas guitars to play it would be difficult for most people to tell the two apart. I play semi-hollows and hollowbodies and can say the guitars the Epiphone factories are turning out these days are damn good. It becomes difficult to justify the headstock tax when the import guitars have reached the level of quality they have. I've owned three Gibsons and have sold them all a long time ago. I still have my Epiphones.
I’m glad I’ve spent 2 grand on a guitar. Because it made me realize I will never do that again lol. I love the SG immensely but was it worth 2 grand? No. Does it have normal guitar problems? Yes. I’ve purchased many since then, and all were 200 or under and I’ve learned SO much about how to be a tech. I’ve had so many late nights working on these “cheap” squires and making them truly mine. Never going back, DIY forever
Party on board with you Jackson vs kiesel comparison, but let’s be real. You can tell there is a noticeable quality difference between a USA Jackson and a kiesel. Love what both brands do, but one is owned and operated by the biggest guitar companies in history.
Recently I picked up a Glarry kit of marketplace for $40. I gave it a quick setup and repackaged it. I then dropped it into a toys for tots box. You can too!
Not defending anyone here just info. Kiesel is a guitar co that builds to order whereas Jackson custom shop is a small group within a larger company there are probably x3 the amount of employees at Kiesel building guitars also Jackson shares its paint shop with fender, and charvel custom shop (many of the same people build all three brands) and scheduling stuff through the finish process is a huge endeavor especially when metallic paints are used. So you essentially have a small group of master builders and custom shop employees building x3 different brands as opposed to Kiesel building guitars ordered to spec. Also a vast amount of “Custom shop” Jackson, charvel, and Fenders are batch built orders for large retailers like Sweetwater, Music Zoo, Wildwood etc those order automatically get priority over one off builds
Jackson even sells the factory guitars at a higher cost for the same specs that another brand has. Getting a Jackson is only worthy if you are getting it from the secondhand market
I wouldn't chop up a PRS - I'd mark it as an "employee guitar" in big letters across the front and back and sell it at a discount in-house. If it makes its way onto Reverb, I wouldn't care; anyone buying it was obviously getting a 'second' and that wouldn't hurt the retail market all that much.
I love nothing more than watching a good video instead of working the Job i am getting paid to do
Right there with you buddy 😂
Happy Wednesday!
Same here!
Uff my dream
Me to
Amusingly for the PRS comments: I went to a private school with PRS's kids, and he would hang back some Factory Seconds for the school's yearly fundraising auction. They would always mention that *most* of them were destroyed, but *this* one had only a few minor cosmetic issues and was kept for this auction.
You went to private school with the PRS's children? What were they like?
I have a B stock E-II Horizon 7 string. It has a tiny, practically invisible ding on the rear of the body. It took me ages just to spot it! I'm glad ESP didnt decide to run it through a bandsaw to preserve their "brand identity."
Indeed.
Just stamp QC or something Into the back of the headstock or something and sell it on.
Most of the time I can never find why a B-stock has been deemed a B-stock unless the flaw has been disclosed. They're great bargains imo.
I love my Edwards Jazz bass. Way better than AmProII I was initially looking at. Fender builds those US bass like a Squier. ESP got it right. I won't buy an LTD though.
I have a B stock LTD Viper Baritone. The only thing I could spot was a shallow scratch in the fretboard. Something I could easily steam out, but I don't care since its at the end of the board. Thanks for the savings on a discontinued guitar, ESP!
The main reason for the difference in price between the Jackson USA Custom Shop and the Kiesel is you can only get a Jackson USA Custom Shop guitar through an authorized Jackson dealer. Therefore, with Jackson, there’s a retail mark-up. Kiesel, on the other hand, sells their guitars direct to their customers at factory-direct prices. Whereas with Jackson, the dealers have to get their slice of the pie.
@Chris_Lohmann That's true. To go even furrher, Let's also look at the aftermarket prices. The jackson USA products will hold their value a lot more than a kiesel. That's something that i think should have been brought up. Kiesels lose almost or some cases, more than half of it's value after being bought. They're not as sought after as a Jackson, ESP USA or PRS.
@@Chris_Lohmann Not just Jackson, every custom shop builder sells exclusively via an authorized dealer.
Kiesel is AFAIK the only relatively known manufacturer that sells factory direct to the customer.
You can't call up PRS or ESP or EBMM and order a custom guitar or even a production model from the factory, as a private customer.
This business model drives the prices up.
@@greekfreak1980 Yes, I know. I made the comparison between Jackson and Kiesel because that was the comparison made in the video. I was surprised KDH didn’t mention the retail aspect as a reason for the huge difference in price. Kiesel uses the factory-direct model because they’ve always done it that way. Despite being less well-known, they’re older than Jackson, ESP, Ernie Ball Music Man, etc. Their name has changed a couple times (remember, they were Carvin for a while), but they’ve been around in one form or another since 1946. I’m glad they’re around. I think they’re a great alternative to the bigger, more expensive brands.
Someone paying 15k for a run-of-the-mill guitar is _special_, indeed !
Especially boring ole stock with inferior ergonomics 😂😂😂😂
Not 'special' THPETHIAL!
Nothing captures the rock n' roll spirit of sticking it to the man like paying $8k for a guitar
Still cheaper than a decent quality orchestra instrument! 😅
Gibson doesn't destroy guitars anymore. Now they paint it an ugly color and charge a lot extra for it.
Honestly, it's kind of brilliant. Because guitar collectors can pretend that their B-stock mod shop guitar is some kind of unicorn and not spray painted trash.
@@_NoDrinkTheBleach It's a little bit of both, which is why I think Gibson hasn't really done much about the finish QC. The typical Gibson player isn't looking for a pristine finish. They can't wait for their guitar to get some "character" as they call it. Something that sets it apart from everyone else's Les Paul, SG, or Explorer, etc. I've owned a couple Gibsons, they all had dings and imperfections (not out of the factory, but over the course of me owning them), and I've never had to reduce the price when I sold them. Gibson players love dings, scratches, and imperfections on their guitars. I play mostly Ibanez now, and if an Ibanez is a little beat up, the seller has to reduce the price or no one will buy it. Got a great Prestige RG1570 a few years ago for $600 because it has some dings on the body that you can't even see from the stage. You actually have to be looking at it up close to see them. I think with Gibson players, it's just that old road dog mentality of having a great, but beat up guitar.
@@travisspaulding2222dings aren’t a flaw on a gibson. They play and sound just fine. I wouldnt want a dinged ibanez
@@Ottophil they should do much more than sound and play fine for the prices they charge for them
@ i just got a brand new SG that left the factory 2 months ago. Paid 2500 and its exactly what I want, no “QC” problems, no tuning issues, or anything else people complain about. I think people who can’t afford 2500$ make up a lot of lies to tell themselves why they don’t want an expensive guitar. I remember thinking my epiphones were good enough when i was broke too.
Guitar isn't dying, but price corrections for luxury guitars are happening. Right now, I'm getting 25% off offers from sellers for high end guitars on Reverb.
If retailers can cut the price by a quarter like nothing, it's obvious pricing still needs to come down.
Exactly.
I had two different dealers send me 20% off for an R9 yesterday, just for liking the listing.
My jaw about hit the floor 🤣
Same
Yea, if you have cash, just like something similar on Reverb and you will almost always get an offer from someone else in 24 hours or less. I buy a lot from a large retailers in the UIS and they have always treated me well but discounts aren't as great as they use to be there. I got a quote for a guitar that was $2800... got like 10% off. I had liked a similar guitar on Reverb and got an offer for one just like I was looking at with a better flamed maple top for $1700 from a smaller shop. Seller was super cool and even did a full setup before sending to the specs I asked for...
I agree that people naturally want something others dont have.
To curb this feeling within myself, i turn to modifying my guitar in unique ways.
Instead of spreading my money across multiple guitars, I go nuts with my one and only. Why not right.
So I've done things like buying a 2nd set of schaller locking tuners so i could two-tone the gold hardware with black elements - looks sick!
I could go on and on, but it's a lot of things like that.
A little goes a long way ☆
It's a good mindset. After all, EvH changed history with what was effectively a parts-bin guitar he threw together. Having a super expensive custom guitar means little other than a status symbol and nothing to do with the skill of the player.
@@noggintube and now people pay thousands to get something like that "exact guitar" that he threw together out of inventive individuality! I always thought that was extremely ironic looking at frankenstrat copies. totally missing the point of why it's cool!
Wanted a guitar with that 'rose gold', vibe that Gibson had done by using a mix of chrome and gold hardware for everything down to the pickup pole pieces (works better when chrome is the primary with gold to accentuate. Using gold as the primary hid the chrome unfortunately - tried it both ways just to be sure which is best).
Modification is where it's at!
Especially these days, the aftermarket guitar parts world has gone crazy with what's available.
Some people wear jewelry to accessorize, we accessorize our guitars.
@@theharvardyard2356 yeah that makes me laugh too. In interviews with EVH, his whole attitude to guitar was trying not to sound like other people. I realise people are inspired by him, but sometimes it's good to try to have some personality in your instrument and music. I personally like buying the Harley Benton kits - affordable and not bad quality at all for the price point. I can then shape and build to my own spec and just enjoy them for what they are. Have sold a few for more than the build cost, and with no name on the headstock people don't have the stigma of a cheap brand, even though it plays fine.
Sickens me to my stomach to see those 335’s being destroyed instead of donated to school music programs. 🤬
That still pisses me off too.
Obscenity.
Same here. If they were flawed and Gibson didn't want them on the market, making the company's quality control look bad, they should have chistled out the Gibson name inlay on the headstocks and then donated them to a music program. Wouldn't it be cool in school kids were learning how to play guitar in music class instead of learning how to play Mary had a Little Lamb on recorders?
Fun day a work for that dude though
You live in the US? If yes, then you should already know money is worshipped as a god in this country. The folks at Gibson are getting a nice hefty write off through creative accounting practices so they don't care. You American capitalism lovers are getting what you deserve and by destroying these guitars goes hand-in-hand with that system. Wait and see what happens in the near future with this country being run by billionaire oligarchs.
The term you're looking for is "Veblen Goods" - luxury products where demand increases as price increases
In 10 years, I could learn to make that analog man myself.
1 month
There are clones available for as cheap as 10-25% of the price of the OG.
Haha. 2 weeks and you'll be fine. I assure you even highschooler taking electronics class can do that shit.
I think the coolest guitar imaginable is just a well gigged, well loved off-the-shelf guitar. A guitar that some player has made special by playing it for years or decades and thousands of hours.
I dunno why I mention this but... I once worked in a restaurant where the owner bragged to me about the insurance on his car costing more than my annual income.
I suppose my point is: some people are so rich AND stupid, you're better off not thinking about it.
Are you saying he's stupid for owning a car that costs that much, for insuring it, or for telling you about it?
You don't have to be really rich to buy a guitar for $5k, it's just about priorities. Look at other instruments like violins, $5k are nothing there and most violinists are not super rich.
I'm such a fan of unassuming basic guitars being used to do extraordinary things. I can't wrap my head around luxury guitars.
I work at Guitar Center and I can say this. Items go on clearance to try to get them out of the store or sell the remaining warehouse stock. Usually the clearance price is just above cost but it’s not uncommon for it to be at or below cost. It all depends how much corporate wants something to move
My nephew just bought a $4900 Fender Custom Shop relic Strat on clearance for $2000.
Given how good affordable guitars are nowadays compared to the way it used to be, I feel like it’s fine that other guitars seem way overpriced.
Yes, nowadays the so called budget guitars range from good, great to the odd “this beats my custom shop!?”
The used guitar market is being oversaturated. So many good deals on 2nd hand guitars, why would anyone buy new?
Let's hope people continue to buy new, because if they don't prices of used instruments will only increase.
@ it can go either way. Too many used guitars in the market can drive the price down due to an over abundance. You’re already seeing guitar shops turn down buying used guitars because they’re just too many.
People would buy them and not worry because most of the time you could get a good chunk of your money back. Well not anymore.
@@AWMJoeyjoejoe economic crisis is coming/already here. everybody with multiple guitars will try to sell and drive the prices down.
The used market are not over-saturated with custom shop guitars though, but with cheap junk guitars.
Sometimes there's something you REALLY want. For example, I think Moderne's are cool and Gibson just re-released the Moderne with the Gumbi headstock. I don't have $9,000 for a guitar because that's ridiculous, but if it was say $2,000 I might be looking at some gear and thinking about trying to move some things along.
Aristedes is one that usually has a 6-12 month wait, but they have a truly unique product. The only company that sells a multi scale evertune, and their proprietary material.
Watched their behind the scene videos and its easy to see why there's a wait. I commend them for keeping their eye on quality and slowly expanding to meet demand.
tbh it's unique but it really doesn't provide anything unique sound wise
Just bought my Epi Les Paul 60s Standard in Iced Tea for $300 used from my local mom and pop shop.
They spent an hour setting it up for me. Guitars aren't too expensive... it's the best time ever to be a guitar player...
Got the exact same guitar for a similar price. I own 4 IBG Epis and didn’t pay more than $350 for any of em used. I’m set.🤟
Nice score man, always good to hear of a guy getting a good deal. Enjoy!
Regardless of anyone's opinion of Kiesel Guitars or their polarizing owner, they have at the very least pulled back the veil on US custom shop pricing. Even as their prices and wait times creep up, they're still an extreme value against other companies.
@@_NoDrinkTheBleach Kiesel is by far the best value in custom shop builds. I ordered a T-style model and it came out flawless. Would love to get another one next time they do a pick your top livestream.
Prices are only going to keep going up annually, so I finally bit the bullet myself last month. 😅
Agreed. I've owned 31 guitars in 50 yrs of playing, 7 were used from Ebay all under $250 dollars, that I refurbished. Three Gibsons that were junk, one with the bridge in the wrong place, that i had to relocate. The last 7 have been NEW Kiesels, built how I want them, 5 of them were under $2K pre-covid. The last two during / after covid $2260. Great fret work, low low action if you want it. Impeccable finishes. You just can't beat Kiesel.
Kiesel prices are lower compared to other custom shop builders, mainly because of their factory-direct sales model.
There´s no middle man with a dealer involved, you pay for the guitar and in case of us overseas customers, you also pay for shipping/import taxes, wich absolutely sucks.
With any other custom shop builder, you pay for the guitar and you pay for the dealer putting in the order & doing the paperwork for you. And they rip you off big time for their services.
It´s kinda similar with luxury cars, where the dealers mark the cars up.
Hell, even regular production Made in USA/ Japan models have gone so much up in price, it´s ridiculous.
I've only heard good things about Kiesel guitars. Funnily enough, I've only heard bad things about Jeff himself.
“I know what's wrong with it. It's a Ford. You know what they say Ford stands for, don't ya? It stands for 'Fix it again, Tony'.”
- Dale Gribble (RIP) King of the Hill.
I just moved to California and been a working musician for decades. I’ll go work for these fellas. Happy to sweep the floors.
Wasting wood, let alone in the form of guitars, is sacrilege. Wood takes f'ing forever to grow.
Seeing the guitars dying hurts
People have been saying guitars are dying since the 90s.
Everything ebbs and flows. Right now is arguably better than ever
Did the guys replying watch the video lol
@@man4437 it's a joke retard
@@man4437
Yes, I'm assuming OP means the physical destruction of guitars instead of selling as B stock, reworked or donated to charity.
Yeah this video is so on point! I just came to embrace the fact that guitars in the 3K$+ (or in my case 5 Israeli digits) are just a luxury market that I don't see myself get involved in, and decided to focus on bettering myself as a guitar player while sticking to instruments that play great and resonate with me for a good price.
My favorites that I'm now using in the building stages of a professional career are Ibanez Premiums (and my main one is a B stock!) and late 80's-early 90's MIJ Ibanez guitars, I resonate with them so much that I don't feel like I need anything higher end or western. Paying too much makes you value it monerarily too much and be afraid to use the guitar to its limits.
Out of all the 3K$+ guitars out there the only ones I tried that are genuinely worth it are Mayones and local builders like OD, and the only ones I think I'll ever buy are some rare and special Jems ;)
If I go expensive, the guitar has to be custom.
These guitar manufacturers could simply stamp "EDU" on the headstock and donate these guitars to schools. Imagine learning how to play on a PRS or Les Paul via your highschool band class, and when you're able to buy your own guitar you're already used to the playability of a PRS or Gibson, so that's what you become a lifetime supporter of.
The Hermès Birkin hand bag is the quintessential example of luxury scarcity. In order to buy one, you have to have a significant demonstrated history of buying other bags from them. Rich people go bananas for these things. Their prices make expensive guitars look like kids toys in comparison.
It’s the same thing with watches as well. Some people go apeshit crazy for Rolexes. While they are good, precise and long lasting watches, they are no more special than your Longines, or Tissot. Yeah they may have a better finish, but it’s nothing like going for some crazy watchmaker’s product
@@benedekgabor.its more specific to models, I can get an explorer any day but I need to buy about 10 explorer level watches to be allowed to buy a submariner
@@sunnohh Yeah, I know that. I wait the times when you have to buy 5 SG Juniors, a few t-shirts and a Gibson amp to be able to purchase a 355.
It makes them look ridiculously stupid, regardless of how they managed to make their money. 😵💫
My Mexican fenders are great. The Mexican factory is turning out better quality as time goes by. My second hand Gibson les Paul standard is great. Second hand Gibsons go for 2/3 to 3/4 of new price. Even custom shop models can be acquired at good second hand prices. The guitar world is saturated with product. Except for the period of the pandemic demand will never match supply. Fender and Gibson are competing with themselves. There’s no actual scarcity only artificial scarcity. Patience in building a collection is a virtue. Eventually guitars you want come to the second hand market.
Kiesel sells direct to consumer. With Jackson & ESP you also have to pay the distributor & dealer. This fact alone doubles the price
Yeah, you never know how much the middle man is shafting you..
The simple answer is that a percentage of people on the planet have unlimited discretionary funds. There are enough of them that you can push the absolute limits of pricing and there will be a group that uses FOMO / shopping therapy to be the first or to have the best. So some brands have a product for this group. That's it. Simple.
"there's a sucker born every minute and two to take him."
- P. T. Barnum
Thus describes the entire vintage "market".
There were guitars you showed at Guitar Summit few months ago that were unbelievable for around 2-3k. Hand crafted, custom, crafted to perfection.
Jackson can't lower the 2 year wait, but they'll launch two new lines of USA built guitars that I believe are in the same exact factory lol. They're the Nintendo of guitar builders.
Also ESP's, USA custom shop is ungodly expensive as well. Fortunately for us that are more patient, they depreciate like crazy on the used market.
'Jackson' can't lower their wait line....don't you mean, 'Fender'?
@@michaelr.4878 Silly thing to be pedantic about. Pretty sure they acquired Jackson but they're still effectively separate entities. They have to ask each other for permission to use anything either company has a patent on still.
Funny thing is, their custom shop or even the "select line" series crush the American series, having owned both myself. I bought a used 2017 Jackson Dk1 for 2k (They go for 3.5k brand new) and it is perfect. I'm also not a fan of kiesel guitars though. Just not my vibe and don't like the feel.
Jackson could reduce the wait, but they won't because it keeps prices up. Harley-Davidson did the same thing for years. Charvel does it too.
I always wonder if after my 30+ years of playing, and setting up all my own sub $1000 guitars, would a $5000-$10000 custom shop still blow me away
Probably not. I've had my guitars all looked after by the local tech, they're all great. I've gone into a store and played the expensive guitars, like up to $4500. They just felt like guitars. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You'll have to try yourself to find out, I guess... 🤔
Yes it would. Even my first Les Paul Standard blew me away and I was previously playing a $1800 ESP Eclipse II
@@ruggie.74 Was your Eclipse professionally set up? Like the frets all leveled and polished, perfectly set up with the strings and action that work best for you? Having my cheap guitars done completely changed them and I don't have a desire for expensive guitars.
It'd have to be a guitar you really want and to your style. I have a few mid range guitars around $1K-$2K that are well setup and a Tom Anderson Angel that was around $5K and you can tell in hand why it was that much. It's not twice as good as my other guitars, but every time I play it after play my other guitars I get that "I get it" feeling again. That being said. I'd still rather have one higher end guitar vs 2-3 decent guitars.
I understand a company not wanting to release inferior products. Destroying them rather than putting them out on the market somewhere, to lower the reputation of the company actually.
The virgin "no B-stocks, cut them in half" Paul Reed Smith vs the chad "paint them salmon pink and sell them as resq:d for sustainability" Ola Sandberg
But yeah, I worked for a watch company in the lower luxury tier, and there were a few times when I had to destroy some unsold stock.
But at least there it ment disassembling them to reuse as much as possible
I was in guitar guitar in Guildford, Surrey last year and I noticed they had a Kirk H Flying V for £15000. It was hanging up by the door. By The Door. Only in a nice place like Surrey would that not end badly. I noted that in the Newcastle branch the spendy axes were at the back of the shop!:)
Guitar Guitar isn't in Guilford. The one closer down south is in Epson. Are you sure you weren't getting it confused with andertons's?
One big difference though is that Kiesel are a direct-to consumer brand, so they cut out the middle man, Jackson & ESP for example sell via retailers which wants a 50% margin, like Axe Palace in this video, so if Kiesel would have had the same business model, then they would have been significantly more expensive.
Your deep dives are always interesting, KDH. This one included, even though witnessing the guitar destruction never stops being painful. 🥶
Strandberg’s RESQ:D line seems like a grown up approach…paint the perfectly playable B stock guitars to cover blemishes and sell them at a discount.
I’ve been a pro touring and session bassist for over 45 years, most recently the touring bassist for the Motown group The Miracles. I’ve been able to play every luxury bass under the sun. What’s my gigging basses? My 1978 Fender P and 74 J bass. All original equipment. In the end I’ve never seen the advantage of these expensive boutique basses. You’ll never have an issue with a P or J and bringing some boutique basses into a session can get you fired or your track dumped.
To some extent, this "luxury" philosophy is being done for stock production guitars at Rickenbacker! Theirs is a pure CNC operation, nothing custom. But they have high prices and a considerable waiting list. They could take steps to decrease the wait and also to reduce the prices, but they don't want to. And perhaps it makes sense for them? This manufactured unavailability serves to perpetuate the "Rickenbacker mystique". I used to have one, it's not that great :D
Ricks go for a lot but even their nicest models don’t go for Gibson custom shop prices. Would never sell my 330.
Kurt Ballou used to play a heavily customized Rickenbacker and I recall a lot of people on Harmony Central giving his review (which included all the mods performed) negative responses. A factory Rick with an EMG 81 would be killer.
That Kiesel/Jackson comparison was hilarious. I’m not dropping over $8K or waiting 2 years for a custom shop guitar, no matter what the brand.
Jackson and Charvel Custom Shop is in the same building as Fender Custom Shop! And when I say 'the same building' I literally mean just a different desk on the shop floor!
i’m glad that you can get guitars nowadays for 500 that feel like guitars that used to cost $1200 15 years ago. I’m very thankful that I focus more on feel and playability than just how expensive a top is or how rare it is because these prices are insane. You could buy a car for the same price as a lot of those guitars. Granted whoever buys those probably is a millionaire so it’s probably still just a drop in the bucket. If you’re a regular middle class American buying these then more power to you but I just cannot understand it one bit at all. One thing I don’t think anyone can deny is that if you put that $8600 guitar in your hands and play it you’re not gonna think oh wow this is definitely $8600 worth of guitar. You’ll think maybe this is $3000 worth Guitar or $2000 worth of guitar.
In Gibsons defense in this rare case - IIRC, the guitars were destroyed due to them having an insurance claim. Something about them being “unsalvagable” - and that they couldn’t donate them. (Gibsons donates tons of guitars to charity already)
likely they found some loophole where one caught fire with the crazy electronics, and figured filing a damage/loss claim was the best way to go.
As for PRS. I believe most of the stuff that’s destroyed/discarded are for functional issues. Not simple finish blemishes. Cause in that case, they’d just refinish the guitar.
But KDH is 100% spot on with the scarcity/luxury view. Lack of supply supports demand.
That’s why you always see lines at a club. It’s better to have 200 people inside, and 200 outside, than everyone (despite a loss of sales and entry fees) because it draws more demand.
Same deal with restaurants. You WANT a wait list. It makes people think “If people are waiting in line, it must be worth it”
Yes, I heard those Firebirds had a safety issue.
@@castleanthrax1833 I heard they made people suck. No taco riffs.
Love Jacksons, but their USA prices have gotten insane. My biggest guitar regret is selling my USA RR1 in 2011. Love Kiesels, incredible instruments.
Most of what high end guitar pricing discussion online comes to is people reverse engineering and going full spectrum mode on specs and value and debate over prices and blah blah blah. The real question is, do you want something, is it worth it to YOU, and are you willing to wait for a good thing? If the answer is no, the guitar isn't made for you. I also think there is a certain element of self-convincing people have over guitar prices. They can't afford these guitars, so they're going to shit on them cause it's easier for them psychologically.
If you want to buy a new Rolex watch at a dealer, they'll put you on a multi year wait list even if you have cash in hand and they have a watch available. The only way to speed up the wait is to buy thousands of $ in other jewelry and hope they take you seriously. Their sales are fantastic but it's burning up their reputation long term. As annoying as Jackson's strategy is, it could be worse.
Adding onto the fact that the Jackson custom shop has had similar delays for a long time. Back in I believe the early 2000s, Alexi Laiho's Jackson Vs were stolen. When he contacted Jackson, they couldn't get him new guitars in time so ESP built the replacements. That was over 20 years ago. Makes you wonder how long people like Marty Freidman and Jeff Hanneman had to wait back in the 80s and 90s.
I saw a Jeff Hanneman guitar at ESP shop in Tokyo for around $4000, I asked how much for the same guitar, but I want the headstock flipped and don't call it Jeff Hanneman model, I just want the exact same ESP guitar . They said then it's $8000. The ESP M-II for $3000 ( at the time ) was great though, you could tell the difference between that and an E-II version as soon as you picked it up. Neck on M-II was fantastic.
Nice video. 2 things: concerning destroying products that don't meet the standards. That is common practice. You wouldn't want to buy a washing machine, car, TV, computer,... that 'may or may not 'break down after 2 years, even if they gave you a discount. So there are QC throughout the production process and whenever items fail that test they are taken out and repaired or destroyed. Companies don't want substandard products to end up with consumers. No matter how hard they would market them as 'cheaper because of the defaults but we do want to offer people the option to get one of our products for a cheaper price', they still would loose their quality reputation and therefor choose to discard those items.
Concerning the prices of Kiesel: don't forget to add your local VAT! The prices they give you are ex vAT. Not sure about Jackson since those prices were on the website of your local dealer and may already include VAT. Still, the difference is massive of course :)
thank god i became my own custom shop when i was 18 and built my first partscaster because fender didnt sell the strat i wanted. 10+ years later all my guitars are partscasters ive built to my own specs.
Understandable that people often want their stuff to be kinda unique, but some of these prices are just not reasonable.
There's a few things missed here.
1. Jackson has middle men vendors you need to go through. Keisel doesn't. That reduces prices for Kiesel.
2. Jackson has mkre brand recognition and is a mkre established brand with a 'storied history' associated with famous guitarists, so that increases the price.
3. Jackson has to share the paint booth with Fender so that slows production down.
4. The MSRP price listed on the Axe Palace or similar places isn't what you pay for the guitar. I spec'ed a Custom Shop Warrior and the final price came down to around $4800. That's still expensive but the prices havr definitely gone up due to inflation. The $8k you see here is a ridiculous price.
5. Jacksons will hold their value more than Kiesels, so more people will buy them, which means sustained demand.
6. Artificial scarcity. Fender could hire more people and give Jackson its own paint booth but they see people still buying the Custom Shops so why would they change It'll only change when the orders reduce considerably.
Inventory taxes are looming for a lot of these retailers. They need to move the high end products. That's why you have to special order expensive stuff these days because many retailers and distributors cannot have this expensive stuff in their inventory for fear of inventory taxes.
i don't appreciate you flaunting that awesome hoodie in my face lol... great video, great channel 🤘😠
The RRP of a lot of things has become quite skewed by the less than fantastic situation for brick and mortar retailers. As a manufacturer that has a lot of wholesale customers that work like this you aren't going to set the RRP of your product at a place that means they makes it too hard for them to make money that just shoots your business model in the foot. This is why you can see music shops selling things at 50% off, why you can often find them online from someone warehousing them rather than running a retail store offering 20 or 30% off without issue. Everyone is just playing to make the most they can. Rarely does anyone pay that full RRP unless they are desparate or rich enough to just not care/have a thing for a certain shop.
Anyway, make your own guitars, its more fun than any you'll ever buy.
I think what were seeing is what's happening in every other industry. Almost every large corporation at any given time has some clearance sale, newsletter sign on discount or something of that nature going on and it gets to a point where if you're buying a given product full price you're basically getting ripped off and unfortunately it seems like the guitar market is headed in that direction.
Congratulations on passing 100k!
My Fender USA Professional Stratocaster II was B-stock, and it was $500USD off. I suspect I won't buy a Silver Sky anytime soon.
Just a small note that, if you're ordering a custom guitar and see a large mark up for stainless steel frets, they are considerably harder and more time consuming to work with, especially on a maple fingerboard. Keisel are clearly being generous with that so don't expect to see that kind of thing across the board (if you'll forgive the pun)
I don't care about the stupid drama with the owner, Kiesel makes incredible guitars, especially for the price. Speccing out something really nice costs a third the price it would for Gibson, Fender or PRS and none of those brands come standard with stainless steel frets and carbon fiber reinforcements. I've also had great experience with their customer service.
I think Gibson had fixed some of this with the MOD shop. Take the B stocks and mod it, then flip it in house while keeping the brand image pure.
Yeah, the MOD and DEMO shops are pretty sweet.
Wings of Pegasus and KDH are probably our best journalists. And not just for guitar and music. Period. I wouldn't want either of these dudes sniffing around my dirty underwear. Great work gents!
Not all higher end brands do these things...Strandberg has used the wood that may not meet the standards for a guitar with a clear finish (knots or other wood disfigurement) and made the RESQ:D line that had solid color finishes and even had a customer poll to pick colors. In addition, they have a great line of B-stock guitars on their Reverb store. I have bought two Strandberg guitars from the B-stock store and I have never been able to determine what made them B-stock. They were SIGNIFICANT discounts (30%+). It comes down to a company philosophy that drives this. The ridiculous thing is the the US government actually incentivizes companies to DESTROY merchandise rather than donate it because they get more money back.
The luxury market has NOTHING to do with what it costs to make the guitar. It is all about what someone is willing to pay. Look at the vintage market. Objectively, the ridiculous prices are driven by nostalgia and scarcity - certainly not quality, etc.
I forgot about that one of him stomping on the ES guitars. I have to admit I laughed out loud seeing that today! Ohh man that was funny.
I had this same problem. I had about 2k to spend on a guitar, and I had a Gibson Sg in my cart at Sweetwater, and I just had something telling me not to pull the trigger on it. Flash forward about two years later, I have a custom made guitar from a local luthier that was the same price, and a much better build. Do your research, and don't rush into buying something because everyone else has one and theirs is expensive.
Always good insight. I always like his takes.
I do remember your videos about Kiesel back in the day....Good points as always. Having said that, Kiesel are the best guitars I ever bought and played in terms of value from money.....Immaculate. Hell, even my Carvins from 86 are great :) BTW all my Kiesels arrived within 2-3 months, last one this year.
Interesting subject. Thanks mate!🤘🤘🤘
Dingwall is definitely the most egregious example of a brand where the demand is still very high and their prices are going UP! Their base bass models are around $2700-2800USD. About a decade ago, Dingwall were around $1400-$1600
Perception is everything in this world, great post.
Enjoyed that. It doesn’t exactly invalidate the point but comparing pricing of a guitar sold direct and one with a dealer markup is a little wonky.
The price and wait time are there to deter the uninitiated. Keeping the custom shop stuff exclusive.
Like you said, very much intentional.
Like Ferrari, you need to buy a few base models before you get a big one.
Kiesel Guitars are by far the best price for "luxury" instruments. I havn't bought one yet, but I was given a very nice A2 by a friend. And it's impeccable!
Ahh yes another guitar related video i can watch instead of practicing 😂
PRS and Gibson would grow A LOT if they did "b stock" type of deals. If I can buy a PRS that retails for $4k but because it has a blemish in the paint or wood design looks weird painted for $2.5k I'd take it. Gibson and PRS are for looks now. Any other brand can make better products that sound better and better made. Got a newish Jem Jr. for $300 and a new PIA for $2600 this month. I'm all set got axes for now
3:33 i would need serious heavy duty therapy if i was told to do this.
In the beginning on 2023 i wss absolutely dying to have a holoflake finish, but i also wanted 24¾"/25" scale and a recessed TOM bridge. My only options were kiesel and warmoth. Lol the holoflake option from kiesel alone cost more than the entire body(with holoflake) from warmoth. I went with warmoth. I got ⅞ build(24 frets/24¾" scale) mahogany body, HH, wizard neck profile, SS jumbos, SD pickups, flamed roasted maple neck with reverse headstock. It 100% feels expensive AF and i love it. Warmoth is the shiz...
Le Creuset are one of the most egregious examples of faux scarcity. They make pots and pans... good ones with great after sales care yes, but they're still just cooking pots. Yet there's a constant stream of limited releases specifically to get people to buy multiple of a stock pot that they already own
There's a book on this subject titled "No BS Marketing to the Affluent" by Dan Kennedy. It's pretty candid, as one would hope from the title.
Another key thing to remember about destroying these defective guitars (not the Firebird example, that was just pathetic of Gibson), specifically when a defect is non-repairable early in the process, is that they will lose $, resources, and time (which is all $), if they continued manufacturing a guitar that wouldn't turn a profit. Sure they could donate them in that state, but in most instances it would be a completely gutted guitar with no finish that no program would be willing to buy parts for, spray a finish on it, and build it all - when they can just go purchase an entry-level guitar for way less that would be functional.
It’s not about wanting to feel special, it’s about not wanting to feel like you’ve been ripped off.
Between 2.000 and 5.000 bucks I could go to my local guitar builder and can have basically anything I want. On top of that I'd be involved in the building process and can make changes in real time. I really don't get why I should order a custom guitar from a huge manufacturer.
Well the same reason you might go to a specific luthiere beyond your local guy. Reputation. I'm more comfortable sending a down-payment to Benedetto and waiting a year for one of their guitars over a random local archtop builder because of the experiences I've had with their product and the trust I've developed between me and them. That's not to say anyone shouldn't go to your local luthiere or builder just that there are reasons beyond just specs.
I have a feeling the KH V dropped in price because Gibson realized no one wanted to spend $15,000 for a $2,000 guitar covered in duct tape.
If you can praise the King of Tone manufacturer for keeping their capacity stable; its the same with Jackson Custom.
For non-cork sniffers...the Steve Brown SBS guitars from Guitar Fetish are killer axes at crazy low prices.
Great information thanks man
The CNC machine has been the great equalizer. So long as the worker's skill is up to par the resulting guitar can be a very nice instrument. If you were to put on a blindfold and be given the domestic & overseas guitars to play it would be difficult for most people to tell the two apart. I play semi-hollows and hollowbodies and can say the guitars the Epiphone factories are turning out these days are damn good. It becomes difficult to justify the headstock tax when the import guitars have reached the level of quality they have. I've owned three Gibsons and have sold them all a long time ago. I still have my Epiphones.
I’m glad I’ve spent 2 grand on a guitar. Because it made me realize I will never do that again lol. I love the SG immensely but was it worth 2 grand? No. Does it have normal guitar problems? Yes. I’ve purchased many since then, and all were 200 or under and I’ve learned SO much about how to be a tech. I’ve had so many late nights working on these “cheap” squires and making them truly mine. Never going back, DIY forever
Colored. Wooden. Planks.
Good Sir , my lawyers will be contacting you for emotinal damage because of 2:30, I've seen quite enough gore on the internet in the 90s.
Party on board with you Jackson vs kiesel comparison, but let’s be real. You can tell there is a noticeable quality difference between a USA Jackson and a kiesel. Love what both brands do, but one is owned and operated by the biggest guitar companies in history.
There comes a point where you're spending for the sake of it. Spending more won't make you a better guitarist.
The people who buy these insanely expensive guitars mostly can't play and are hobbyist with way too much wealth.
Recently I picked up a Glarry kit of marketplace for $40. I gave it a quick setup and repackaged it. I then dropped it into a toys for tots box. You can too!
Not defending anyone here just info. Kiesel is a guitar co that builds to order whereas Jackson custom shop is a small group within a larger company there are probably x3 the amount of employees at Kiesel building guitars also Jackson shares its paint shop with fender, and charvel custom shop (many of the same people build all three brands) and scheduling stuff through the finish process is a huge endeavor especially when metallic paints are used. So you essentially have a small group of master builders and custom shop employees building x3 different brands as opposed to Kiesel building guitars ordered to spec. Also a vast amount of “Custom shop” Jackson, charvel, and Fenders are batch built orders for large retailers like Sweetwater, Music Zoo, Wildwood etc those order automatically get priority over one off builds
Jackson even sells the factory guitars at a higher cost for the same specs that another brand has. Getting a Jackson is only worthy if you are getting it from the secondhand market
@@FabirukaS I have no idea why Jackson thinks they can sell a lot of their import models for the price they do. Its wild.
Nice Vola in the back. Getting my second one tomorrow.
I wouldn't chop up a PRS - I'd mark it as an "employee guitar" in big letters across the front and back and sell it at a discount in-house. If it makes its way onto Reverb, I wouldn't care; anyone buying it was obviously getting a 'second' and that wouldn't hurt the retail market all that much.
I've had several Gibsons stamped "B" over the years. Never kept me up at night