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Thank you so much for this, it is great to hear a TH-cam creator actually state that these products are flat out stealing. I'd rather pay 2-4 times the price for the real one, rather than supporting a communist regime that calls us their enemy.
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And Amazon have the advantage of seeing the exact sales numbers prior to deciding what to copy. There have been loads of small creators ripped off by AmazonBasics, etc
Yes, they use their vendors' inside information on sales against them: if something sells well on Amazon with apparent profit they will out-compete them. It seems there are no rules of fair play.
Not the same thing, though. And is that really the game at this point. They also get criticized for largely just squeezing their sellers. The place is like Ebay, without auctions or transparency. How does that jibe with the idea they are screwing their vendors so they can take over their businesses. They have a different way of screwing their vendors.
From what I summized Amazon was a reputable seller. They seem to do their homework and choose the right vendors. Now, there's a good chance many of the products you purchase from their website are Chinese knockoffs.Or the Chinese reverse engineered a product, made it just different enough to get around our patent laws, and sell it through Amazon. But where do you go? Americans made the decision to buy cheap junk over the more expensive quality version. Harbor Freight anyone?
The unskilled people like to talk about how hard they work or how many hours they work. The skilled people talk about how much value they created. I can assure you whining on TH-cam won't increase your hourly rate
As someone from the rust belt, it's hard to feel bad for corporations and executives since they ruined the region sending jobs overseas, now the chickens have come home to roost it seems. Hopefully this spurs some policy action, that's the only effective way to limit knockoff's reaching the market. And hopefully this spurs companies to keep manufacturing domestic to protect IP
Amen. Those companies invested a lot of time and money to set up the import cheat codes that allowed them to unfairly compete with domestic production in the first place. They raised and fed the beast that we're now trying to fend off.
Sadly, it won't because those same executives, and venture capitalists, that sent those jobs overseas are making more money through these "agreements" than they would if we moved that production back to the US.
Yeah, they cry poverty but half of it is their own profit erring. Development costs? How much does it cost develop a goddam square? And then another, slightly bigger one? And then - get this - another slightly smaller one? They charge eighty bucks cause they can, and there's no moral argument that we shouldn't pay $25 for the same crap because we can.
You think it matters where these are manufactured? All these commie countries just blatantly steal everything, I mean they even stole the atomic bomb, even our space shuttle. As for the rust belt - the reason the corporations left is because they had to deal with all the corrupt unions there. Many of those corporations went south, while manufacturing went to China because people at Walmart want whatever is cheapest, not what is made in the US by insanely overpriced union labors who give half their earnings to the mob and Democrat party. In any case, please do us a favor and stay there in the rest belt and stop moving to the south, we don't need you leftists coming here and destroying where we live like you destroyed where you live.
As European, the main reason for buy the cheap knockoff is that they are delivered in Europe. Most of US companies do not give a crap about the other markets and this is a short-sighted approach...
You are right. I have a few tools from woodpeckers and they are great. But esp. Woodpeckers charge so high shipping costs. In my opinion they make an extra money with the shipping costs. I think, they do not care for international customers. So why to buy from them?
^ Exactly... Tbh, I wasn't aware that the BG/Temu products were "counterfeits" of products from other companies. However, as you mentioned, those major companies don't seem to care about the EU market. I just verified for myself. Purchasing a "counterfeit" 3D Pushblock on BG only cost me 35€ with no additional shipping fee. Granted, I'll receive it in four weeks, but that's not a concern for me. On the official website, MicroJIG, 35€ doesn't even cover the shipping cost to France. The shipping alone is 60€, and the Pushblock is another 60€. That's a grand total of 120€ compared to BG's 35€. Seriously USA....
I'm Canadian. I'm seeing $30 shipping on a $100 tool from the US. 10 to 20 days. Free almost overnight (3 days) shipping from China.@@klausschleicher523
@@klausschleicher523 -- Curiously, it isn't the American manufacturers, it's the US Postal System and its exorbitant shipping rates, which in turn encourage the parcel delivery companies to jack up THEIR fees too. Check around; there are a few US parcel forwarding outfits that will consolidate multiple purchases for you and ship them together at about the cost of a single item. I speak from experience as a US expat living permanently in Japan.
One of my favorite hobbies when traveling throughout Eurpoean countries was to find the local hardware stores and spend time leisurely walking the aisles and looking at their unique tools. Sure, there were off brands but the Europeans seemed to still prefer selling and buying quality tools from Germany, Italy, France...
I'm not passing any judgment... but... 1st world companies have their products made over seas for much less than they can make the same products with domestic workers. They pocket a lot of that profit. I used to work for a domestic injection mold maker. Our customers moved a lot of mold making to China. They didn't care that it was painful for us and other domestic workers. I feel for the domestic workers, but have less sympathy for the domestic companies. Ironically, one of our customers makes woodworking products. One of the reasons they used domestic toilets was so the knockoffs didn't hit the stores before their own products. I won't say who it is, but they do make the only right handed track saw I've seen.
You're absolutely correct. It goes both ways. Buying the knockoffs hurts the companies that manufacture domestically, but many other companies didn't have a care in the world about hurting the domestic worker. Remember when the Suez Canal was blocked? I saw many an article about companies wanting to move back because it was such a disaster for them that they didn't want to deal with it again. Where are they now? Still manufacturing overseas.
It's probably why so many of those items look so similar. They're made in the same factory. Rockler slaps their name on it and charges your double for it. I'm supposed to encourage this with my buying habits
If companies are going to abuse the cheap labor of oversea manufacturing, they have every right to produce those products. And it's not like the companies don't know their IP is going to be used, they choose to do it anyway for profit. Sadly it does hurt domestic workers, but the fault lies with companies that lobby the government to allow them to do things like this. Domestic workers will make pennies regardless of where it's manufactured.
If something is made and manufactured in America I will 10/10 times pay the premium price for it but when companies charge a premium price but also have their product made overseas it’s hard for me to get behind it personally
To a point. There's a handful of made in America companies that totally price gouge because they're banking on a certain demographic and use a lot of buzzwords in their marketing and PR. A $130 mechanical pencil comes to mind...
@@nicklavioletteiii2183 Agreed 100%. If US manufactured company price gouges, like a certain one that comes in a red color many TH-cam woodworkers stand in front of a wall of, I'll look towards a quality knock-off. Quality being the key word here. There is still a ton of absolute crap being made in and shipped from China. I'll buy US made/manufactured items all the time, but I'm also no fool. Until our elected officials stop taking "influences" from sources to ignore the issues and not change the laws, the playing field will remain the same.
@@csimet Agreed, same boat here. I'm willing to buy American, but I'm not about to spend $100 on something like a square or other relatively basic tool. Hell, you can get a whole set of machinist squares that are very affordable.
Yep, most of the products are US design but manufactured oversea just like clothing. Tell me what items in Homedepot, Lowes, and Ace Hardware are manufacture in US. Am I a bad person now if I purchase through Temu, and Bandgood cutting out the middle man? I am trying to survive in this economy
I worked for a US clothing and sporting goods manufacturing company for almost a decade. They stopped having anything manufactured in China because the factory would spit out "knock offs" after they were done making our order and then sell them for the price we were paying them. Which like you said doesn't cover the investment we put into the R&D of the product. Often the knock offs would be using different materials, in some cases they would drastically affect the potential lifespan of the item, others were using lead or other unsafe materials, and some didn't have the same performance. The other thing we noticed was intentional material swapping they'd try to do on us. They'd increase and decrease amounts in a blended material based on the current prices where we had it balanced based on optimal performance. They'd swap out for a cheaper dye that would fade in a few months when the original would last a few years.
Yep. But I have zero sympathy for them, bc they decided that domestic workers were a line on their balance sheet, instead of people they had a responsibility to.
I saw this done about 25 years ago when I was on vacation in Hong Kong. Workers were sewing Ralph Lauren shirts with logos on industrial sewing machines, then they would stop and sew a batch of JC Penney shirts with the JCP logo and different fabrics, but same design. After done with the JCP batch they would start on the clone shirts, different (and lookalike but lesser quality) fabrics that would be sold as knockoffs, still using the RL patterns. I got the impression that the workers - many of whom doing this in their own homes - were getting paid to produce X amount of legit goods, on the click. But after hours they were free to produce their own clones, to bolster their income.
@@dottyjyoung I can't disagree after said manufacturer decided to outsource their entire IT department to India. Two years later that company called me up offering a 40% raise for me to come back and do the work of my entire four person team. They had horribly damaged it. We were counting months between overnight support calls, they were counting fractions of an hour. Things we had completing in minutes were taking hours. I told them I didn't trust them and it would cost a little under 3x my prior paycheck to get me back. They said they couldn't afford it, I said well you should have considered that when you let us go.
@@kimanjo No, that's standard practice in their country's industry. I used to be an Amazon seller, & learned that factories have a practice called, "Private Labeling." They make certain goods, & then attach your logo to it. Anything from a pen to a piece of furniture. Sometimes, it's not even that Ralph Lauren's patterns are used, it's that Ralph Lauren had a factory private-label a garment for them.
@@dottyjyoung They also (likely) went to the lowest cost bid, bases on the story, and thusly, the manufacturer made up for the lack of profit by making the knock offs. If they paid more to a reputable Chinese company they could avoid that. Anyone can hit the internet wheel and take their chances on whom they are dealing with.
Pretty red machined aluminum with QA policies that ensure extremely tight tolerances, in Woodpeckers case. Depending on the work you’re doing, those tolerances may be critical or insignificant.
The cost of woodpecker products isn’t related to the cost of the materials or manufacturing. Woodpecker makes luxury goods and you are paying for the prestige. I’ve seen a lot more woodpecker products hanging on walls than actually being used.
@@keithc1335people could say the same for other luxury products if they didn’t understand that price tag is also usually associated with industry innovation, like the S-class of vehicles from Mercedes. Woodpeckers also uses an optical calibration system for every product they make, so there’s no small discrepancies between products. That might be overkill for some, but other people may actually depend on that accuracy and are willing to pay for it
It's paying for a brand name and yes professional grade Tooling and QC. With that said, 90% of us on here are hobbyist and amateur woodworkers who do this for fun, and our human error negates the precision that these boutique tools offer at that price point. So even though you paid a small fortune for a dead accurate tool, means very little when the performance of the user cannot operate at that high of a tolerance level to begin with. I happily own several made in America tools, but there isn't any valid reason to fork over the cost for the high end professional business grade tools (with considerable market branding) for someone who does this for fun.
Something else to keep in mind; when companies ship their manufacturing off to China and the manufacturer creates all the tooling and such to produce a product - the manufacturer expects to run their lines 24-7. IF a company only orders 16h of product a day the other 8h of product that the manufacturer produces gets sold to wholesale companies like Temu, Bangood, Alibaba, etc. This is what accounts for some of the 'Knock Off' products you see being sold.
On a larger scale, that's what happened to Nortel in Canada. The entire company was cloned in China and they were able to hack into their customer database and R&D hard drives. All because Nortel wanted to cut costs and off shore their product development and manufacturing.
Something else to keep in mind is that, if temu can purchase the surplus product from the manufacturers and still turn a profit selling comparable products at half the price of the name brands, what does that tell u about the name brand's pricing? Might their be some price gouging? Should we be rewarding price gouging with our brand loyalty?
@@williamtaylor6252 The domestic pricing incorporates any QC work that has to be done on a finished product, as well as recoupment of R&D, certification, and licensing agreements.
@@williamtaylor6252 you mean price gouging as in investment in RnD? cost to physically make a product is less than 30% of the MSRP most of the time, rest of associated costs are in research and development, handling and not to be ignored: warranty and support. If lets say zou have to replace every 50th product due to some warranty claim, you have to account for that in the price for the consumer whether you like it or not. Most physical goods companies operate with margin of under 30% and if you want to invest in developing new products and support your existing custommers, you cant compete on price with companies that does neither and does not even pay import taxes...
paying $120 for corner clamps is crazy, they should spend less money on lawyers trying to take them down and trying to cut down on competition and make their product more competitive and care about the buyer more than their absurd prices. people like me can't afford those prices, so ill take the chinese stuff
Funny that one of your examples was spring clamps - just last week I ordered some extra spring clamps off of Amazon to supplement the ones I had. $8 and change for 8 clamps and a pretty good pliers (which I didn’t need). Junk! The teeth didn’t meet in the middle, so the clamp torqued itself off my mitre every time I tried to put it on. Returned those and paid $38 for twelve Collins clamps (no pliers). They are the brand I already had and I knew they would work flawlessly, and they did. Sometimes you get what you pay for.
If the product is made in the USA, I will buy the USA made product. If the product is made in China but the company is headquartered in the US, I'll buy the cheaper one that is made in China.
The US company is still employing marketing, sales, shipping, product managers, and R&D teams. They are also paying import duties and charge sales tax. This contributes to the higher price.
I still have a problem with seeing a big sticker on a product that says Made in the USA with globally sourced parts. So first, its not "made" in the USA. It's assembled in the USA. And second, am I supposed to feel better that Americans are assembling a bunch of inferior parts made in China? Would you feel comfortable if your heart surgery was performed by an American doctor, but your new heart was made in China?
I sympathize for the domestic companies that actually do everything domestically but for those that ship off to another country to take advantage of basically slave labor rates and still want to charge premium prices on their products I couldn't care less.
That's short minded. Why do you care how much their cost is? None of your business. Is anyone questioning you how hard you work for your money? We all purchase stuff based on the value they provide. Period.
@@woodworkingandepoxy643you are obviously way over your head $10 😂 Each apple engineer is paid 10x your wage and selling $15 phones won't cover for it.
@@b3arwithm3 if you don't care about literal children being forced to make products for pennies then pay hundreds for it something is wrong with you. Kids shouldn't be forced to do shit
Thanks for calling it out straight. Exposing the tax loophole created about 100 years ago that allows Temu and other companies to pay $0 in taxes was money (pun intended). Same for pointing out subsidized shipping that allows them the deliver so quickly at such low rates.
If you want to talk about tax loopholes...start by looking at who our tax code most benefits first. Robert Kiyosaki and others will massively change your perspective.
@@jpcreativeimagery Thanks for the provocative reply. I don’t have a perspective on who our tax code benefits that one could fit in a nutshell. It seems you do, however. Chances of me reading Kiyosaki’s books books or website (presuming he has one) searching for nuggets of information that will change my perspective on the tax code is nil. I’d genuinely appreciate it if you’d nutshell what Kiyosaki says. Who does the tax code most benefit in your view?
I totally get what you are saying, I do. I promise you I really do. But let's be clear about one thing. Woodpeckers charge an insane amount of money. Like eat a bag of dicks kind of money. I own an actual made in the USA Gripper. And I do my best to support American workers. But American companies need to also do more to support American consumers. I make $25 an hour. A 24 inch Woodpeckers T-Square costs $140 with tax and the cheapest shipping it comes to $172. That means I have to work 6.88 hours to pay for a friggin t-square?? That's a hard no for me man. I build stuff for fun. I make planter boxes and end tables for my mom. I make a microwave carts for my kid. That kind of thing. I like working with wood, I don't get paid for it. Nobody is giving me money for the things I build that I can then reinvest in better tools. My Skil table saw cost the same $300 as a Woodpeckers 26 inch Square. That ain't right. How does a saw with a motor in it cost the same as a framing square??? I simply can not make that work for me. So I will buy whatever the big box store has or occasionally something on Amazon. No apologies.
I can't argue with that and woodpeckers definitely has positioned themselves as a super premium brand. Seems like they are starting to offer lower priced items
@@deadtolove And that Woodpeckers T-square isn't going to make that microwave cart turn out any better than the Empire from Lowe's but get a couple of those red tools, start a TH-cam channel, and watch the subscribers flood in.
High prices doesn't mean premium. It means high prices. As the person above mentioned, justifying their prices is difficult even for me, and I make a six figure salary on my day job. I purchased one thing from woodpeckers, a tri-ruler. Yes it was pretty and red and hefty, but was no more accurate than the one I purchased from Iguage. On a different note I love your videos and your straight forward attitude. Keep up the good work and I will continue to watch and support your channel. Thanks for all you do.@@Lincolnstww
Great video and judging by the number of comments you've succeeded in creating dialogue. Not too long ago I bought a router lift from BangGood that was endorsed by Dennis from Hooked on Wood. Coincidentally I fitted it just yesterday and I can vouch that the quality is outstanding. I'm from the UK and agree that you should support your own country but when BangGood are producing quality items at half the price you're never going to get enough loyalty from your own people.
Allow me to disagree. There's no way fake woodpecker tool buyers and real woodpecker tool buyers overlap. Believing that anybody would buy woodpecker instead of temu (or otherwise) is ludicrous. These are completely different target audiences. So since woodpecker is de facto not losing any sales to temu, it's unwarranted to call that theft. Now if they were to sell those AS woodpecker tools, that would be unscrupulous.
As a Canadian, what I find frustrating is that US companies seem to willfully ignore our (Canadians) existence. There are PLENTY of companies that have absolutely no problem shipping from the US to Canada for reasonable rates, proving it can be done. But far more companies seem to not know about us, or care. By no means do I expect the same "free domestic shipping" that is offered by so many companies in the US, just, reasonable rates. They either will simply not offer shipping to Canada at all, or if they do, it is for prices that can often exceed the price tag of the products you are buying. It makes no sense. I'd be happy to purchase quality tools (and consumables) from US manufacturers, but not if the shipping prices are going to double the final price. But while plenty of companies HAVE figured out that Canada exists, far more seem to not know about us, or care.
So true. Happened to me with a very popular TH-cam woodworker. I tried ordering tools and the shipping and duty were more than the tools themselves and there is no way I could justify that as much as I appreciate what they are doing.
Hey, it’s not just Canada…I’m in Alaska which is a US state and I deal with the every freaking day too. In fact, a lot of companies will ship to Canada but still won’t ship to Alaska. I hear you. It sucks.
Some companies seem to be using shipping as a junk fee so they don't have to show the real price. Woodpeckers, for instance, spams me twice a day. Some of the things I'd buy (e.g. router bits) but when I get to the checkout, they want $10 for shipping. Um, no thanks. They could just drop it in an envelope and mail it.
I was not expecting such an in depth explanation. You were very educational and explained clearly the problems occurring. That is why, when able to, purchase from companies making items in your own country.
I think this was a very good (and fresh) take on the issue, thanks for bringing more to this comparison than just "which are crappy clones and which are good quality clones". I also think you shed light on some of the underlying systems that feed into this landscape without sounding fear-mongering, which can be tricky to do, I definitely learned new information from this video :)
Some of those brands stupidly don’t service the Australian market, or they get a massive mark-up, these sites give us access to products we’ve been unable to get.
Australian companies are stupid. Seriously stupid. Tried to buy some electronic earmuffs, screwed me around for so long (make an account, won't tell me the price blah blah) I eventually just ordered them from Amazon US for half the price. Same for respirators, got an email demanding to know why I wanted them! Jezz, eff off. How hard is it: I give you money, you send me stuff. Buy local? Screw that.
I agree with what you said except one thing. You pointed to the wood pecker square that cost 125$ for two. We all know we need 4. That’s 250$ for a square. Squares have been around for as long as wood working and to think one can justify that price is ridiculous. As long as it’s square and can be clamped, it will work. My point is this company puts their name on some things and charges an unbelievable price knowing their fans will buy them. It’s disheartening at best. Let’s face it, this company has done a great job of taking others products and making them better. But good grief, it’s a corner square. I’m a bit surprised you bought into them.
Ironically TH-cam inserted a promo from Bangood in the middle of your video urging me to by a cheese grater that was less than half the price of the same grater on Amazon. I appreciate your work, keep the videos coming.
And here we go. Woodpeckers has just put up a sale this morning illustrating exactly what I was talking about. They have some original products, but, IMO, the vast majority of their catalog consists of knock-offs of other people's products. They might make a few tweaks, but primarily what they're doing is making the color scheme red, sometimes with some black. I get it, that some woodworkers are so far out in the weeds that they've never seen these products before and therefore think Woodpeckers are master designers and engineers coming up with every great idea. OK, they have some production in the USA, but that doesn't make them any less of knock-off artists when they're stealing ideas from Europeans, Chinese and even other Americans. Today's product: The Sandstand. 100% ripped off design. Even their Paulini pocket rules are ripped off - and on sale today too. I have a number of Woodpeckers products and I'll likely buy more, but it's important to recognize where they stand. Once you order from them and start getting the emails, you can see they're like a "As Seen on TV" outfit, marketing their products like they're at a flea market. Yeah, the emails are annoying and rapid-fire.
Ok I gotta fire back on this one. “ hey you stole that from a Chinese company “ SAID NO ONE PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. ( other than fire works ) lol
@@joelw6215 You do realize that America is like.. 300 years old, vs China and Europe who have been doing woodworking for literally thousands of years lol
One part that's not talked about much on the fake/counterfeit side of things is that many products *are* genuine, but are sold without license or failed QC. Or, in other words, products that a NA company didn't want for one reason or another, and the overseas manufacturer wants to offload them. Most things from AliExpress, Temu, etc are basically one or two steps from "direct from factory", with all the pros and cons that comes with the label.
My theory is most of these knockoffs are made side by side with the “official” product and the US companies unknowingly pay for the knockoff production. Imagine Chinese manufacturer quotes $0.50 per piece to manufacture something, but they know it really only costs them $0.25 per piece…they get the contract at $0.50/per can that pays for the knockoffs’ production and the sell of the knockoffs is pure profit
@@vacrayton That probably doesn't really happen. Another poster here had a better theory where they run a factory for 24 hours a day but the American company only contracts them for 16 hours so rather than changing the tool setup, they finish the day and do 24 hours. The best pieces are kept for the 16 hour run that meets the production quota and the rest are sold off-brand to recoup/profit off of the remaining run. That made a lot of sense.
As someone who has studied accounting and economics, it is nice to see someone calling out the theft of intellectual property rather than just comparing quality. It seems too many content creators are falling for the "good bargains" trap. But i haven't seen them actually using the counterfeit crap on a major build yet.
I am in Kenya and the major brands are too expensive for a hobbyist. I have used the Chinese tools for years and they have served me well. Some of the tools worked pretty well for heavy production. Though I haven't used the major brands to make a comparison. One could also get the major brands from the used tools market at a lower price.
This is such a challenging issue and complex problem. It's also very similar to pirating media. The music industry took a huge hit in the digital age when people refused to pay $20 for a CD with one good track on it. Eventually, things like spotify came along and offered an attractive offering at a reasonable price, and piracy dropped substantially. Same occurred with cable, gaming, you name it. There are shades of this happening here. It's piracy. It's PAID piracy, but it is still piracy. I, for one, own a set of those knock off angle clamps, because there is NO WAY EVER would I spend the asking price from the brand name for a piece of aluminum. All the legal fights and money in the world is not going to get someone like me to throw up my hands and be gouged (in my opinion) for that product, especially if it is still made in a country with cheap labor. I will pay for quality and location of build if the price is what I consider reasonable. I've got many tools that fit this bill. I don't know if a better tariff system would work that lays the cost on the exporting country rather than the importer, but it would likely work better than the model we have now. At least it might close the gap some. Of course, it would probably discourage more people from buying more tools rather than encourage them to spend a great deal more. Not an easy problem to solve.
Very enlightening content, and as a new woodworker (old guy, but it's been 20 years since I did much woodworking), and 25 year veteran I'll be spending my money in the USA even if it costs a bit more. My wife and I have begun looking closely at where products are made, and sticking with made, and not "constructed, or assembled" in the USA has a lot of value to us. Love your channel and content.
@@loupeachum4747 I guess it all comes down to what anyone sees as value. Do I purchase things made outside the U. S., of course I do. Do I purchase some things that cost more than a similarly made item sure, we all do because of the old adage "you get what you pay for". Having done many contracts over the years, the terms "least cost" vs. "best value" have always got to be considered. Whenever we purchased something that wasn't the item that had the "least cost" we had to justify why it was the "best value". Does made in the USA mean it's got the best value, not always, but I've found I take that into consideration more now than I ever used to = it's now part of the equation when deciding on where and what I spend my hard earned money on. Oh, and I always look at used vs. new first. I used to buy new stuff all the time, and once I realized how much I was paying for having a "new" item that became "used" as soon as I got it, I started saving a huge amount of money and still got what I was looking for. Oh, and I fix about everything I've got, and have been doing that since I was 17 (Dad taught me how to fix a car = if I wanted to drive it, good motivation for a teen age boy who wanted a car to drive). Woodworking gives me an outlet to make new stuff, even using old stuff = reclaimed lumber and pallets. Good skills to have and I'm passing these on to my 8 grandkids.
Always appreciate your take. It’s a complex situation with nuances left and right (no pun intended). Capitalism has lifted millions out of poverty in China and other developing nations. But at what cost (to those cultures, to our American economy, to our consumerist mindset)? It’s not an easy situation with not easy answers. It’s heartbreaking to see individuals playing by the rules having their businesses in peril because of this. I’m rambling - but I appreciate your even take on it. You’re the Walter Cronkite of TH-cam woodworking content creators !
Thanks Chris. Much appreciated. So many sides to this and quite the spirited comments section so far but I'm thankful people like you get the intention of the video. thanks again made my day
Capitalism has lifted more out of abject poverty than anything else, throughout history. It's essentially eradicated abject poverty and hunger. Where it exists, it's an intentional feature of the local government, where capitalism isn't allowed. As you note, China is now a powerhouse economy (not capitalistic anymore, BTW) well on its way and is now trying to bury us. It's rather dumb to give them the shovel.
I appreciate the video and was glad to see that you weren’t playing both sides of the coin by both talking about the negatives of temu but then also putting temu affiliate links in the video description like some other woodworking TH-camrs are doing lately (I won’t name names…). I’m torn on this issue personally as I do think companies like woodpeckers are over-inflating the “value” of their product development and IP and passing that on to the customer in the form of higher prices. With that said, they are justified in defending their patents, and I recognize the cost that goes into doing that. Putting aside the IP/legal aspect, I am a believer that if your product is supposedly “quality” and sells for a “quality” price, then the value of that product should show in how well it works and how well it holds up over time. If your product sells for 4x more than a no-name equivalent but the equivalent works just as well and lasts just as long, I don’t think the customer should be at fault for wanting to save a buck.
You talk about taxes but american companies are well known not to pay taxes in european countries. No matter if it is Starbucks, Amazon, Ebay, Microsoft, Apple and a lot of others. The most of them even pay very low taxes in the USA they have their constructs to avoid them.
Need to add some context here, banggood is an Amazon like company and not manufacturers they are also a proper legit company that seems to be forgotten in a lot of these videos, they also are licensed distributors for top companies like creality, wolf, new and Lenovo. Your argument here is attacking the supplier whom is no different to Amazon not the manufacturers. Second point don’t be sucked in to think that copying these days only goes one way there are a few examples where the big boys like incra have copied in the opposite direction. Third point the US is not their original target audience this is only a recentish growth thing and for us outside of Europe and the US these guys should be celebrated because they bring the hobby to us and have done for ages where European and US manufacturers don’t cater to us or do so at exorbitant prices. For me I buy the best tool for the job based on availability to Australia and to a price that I can afford. The damage to industry market also goes in both direction what happens to the manufacturers when a company pulls out and leaves them because some other third world country is now cheaper, the arguments need to be balanced. At the end of the day the more accessible woodworking and making hobbies are the more people can get into it and the greater the market becomes for these “tier 1” companies.
It's actually a little more complicated than that. In the electronics industry, the Chinese manufacturers can require you to give them the design files. Not simple the Gerber files used to produce a printed circuit board, but the schematics and parts lists also. Don't want to give it to them? They're happy to tell you to go somewhere else. The Chinese government heavily regulates Chinese businesses, and they're the ones putting the onus on those companies. Don't do it, you get fined or shut down. They have a very active program to acquire any technology they produce for other countries. Companies are being blackmailed if they want to use Chinese production facilities.
Wow Jon. Eye opening stuff here. Educational, not in a woodworking sense but, in a global economy and consumer way. From all the other TEMU TH-cam Videos I have watched, most people have conflicting views on many of the same products whether they are square or not and/or the likely hood of being durable and worth the sacrifice in build/parts quality. The quality control really doesn't seem to be there. However, I don't mind buying lower priced items if they are in effect, not worth the price of what other manufactures are pricing them at. For example, the Rockler Glue Tray and brush set. How much true R&D went into this product to justify a $15-$20 price tag? Its made of silicone, right? People been using silicone brushes in the kitchen for spreading oils and silicone cake batter stirrers or frosting spreaders for ever. The "technology" has been around far longer than it has been used in the wood shop. The R&D on this product was simply a lazy, yet creative person, saw how these items spread things and said to themselves, hey let me try spreading glue with this and see if it peels off, and it did. lol. So, if I can buy one for a lower price, then I will. However, the complete ripping off of the packaging and stock photos, is absolutely just straight out stealing!!! I would never buy it from TEMU just for that fact. I'd rather search out other companies who do not blatantly rip off other manufacturers. What I am saying is, we should be smarter consumers. There are many reputable companies that make comparable products at a lower price point.
Machining items from billet aluminum on CNC machines is NOT cheap. The cost of metal from the mills has skyrocketed. You couldn't buy the aluminum to make one of those corner squares for $5 much less machine, anodize and package it. I showed some brass 1/2" x 1" Fillister head screws that I made for a restoration to a machine shop owner. He said, "People wouldn't understand that those are worth $150.00 apiece." Just the brass cost about $4.50 per unit and it took about 1.5 hours to make each one.
This is first really nuanced exposition (not a rant!) of this thorny problem. Good job, thanks for being a smart and thoughtful guy (and informative woodworker too). Kinda funny.
Taking that gluebrush kit as an example, most products like that are made in China anyway, rockler are making $14 profit when you buy it for $15. That's profiteering. So my sympathy is a little thin for rockler etc. But a carefully designed product, one that really matters? Hmm, different story.
The irony of US company spending millions of dollars to fight the knock offs, versus decreasing profit margins to make them more competitive with international sellers just seems so crazy to me
Somebody has to pay the salaries of engineers and product developers. It turns out that it takes them to run a business that innovates, and lawyers to protect them from people ripping off their patented inventions. Without the lawyers, they can shrink the profit margins, fire the engineers, and die a quick death. …and we get fewer innovative products to use.
Thank you for doing this. As a guy trying to start his own woodworking business you've been a huge help and this video is no different. I can see buying this cheap stuff if you're a weekend warrior... maybe... but for the long run I'd rather support businesses here at home. I get the message and appreciate that you took the time to do it. Also, I love my Lincoln ww T-shirt. Fits great 😊
I can see the moral dilemma for a woodworker in the US. Buy from a US based producer and pay a bit more. Or save money and get it from Temu. But from the perspective of someone outside the US, I see it as less of an issue. Take Woodpeckers for example. If I want to buy one of their tools, because of the strength of the US dollar, I have to pretty much pay double what someone in the US would pay. And then add shipping (which can often equal or exceed the cost of the item). I don't know why shipping from the US is more expensive than elsewhere. But that's just the way it is. So I don't have too many qualms about buying a woodpeckers knockoff from Temu. (Oh, and get free shipping). Because I am not depriving Woodpeckers of a sale. I would never have bought the tool for what I would have to pay Woodpeckers for it.
At first, I thought you jumped the shark and were doing another "I bought these woodworking tools on Temu" video. But you didn't do the shocked face thumbnail, and I've gotten used to your no BS style of presenting information. So I watched......and THANK YOU!!!! These companies are exploding and consumers are buying this crap thinking they are getting a good deal. But, I honestly don't think this is going to end well. Companies who develop products are being robbed, consumer data is not being protected, and this is going to end badly very soon. Amazon is not far behind this either, as even they can't keep up with the influx of unethical chinese knockoffs because people keep BUYING this crap! And dozens of other channels make these videos for a laugh! I am honestly very scared for the future.
The only thing I would take an exception with is that Amazon absolutely can put a complete stop to this if they wanted to. They have massive resources to apply to it, but simply don't want to as they make more money leaving it the way it is. The same way that media companies abuse dmca takedown notices, this process could be turned 180° to actually stop knockoffs. The original product owner could simply put an exception into an Amazon product and immediately stop sale if they could prove that they have the original product design. Difference to the current process is that the product sale would stop immediately while the exception was being investigated. That would have an immediate and chilling effect on anyone selling knockoffs
The solution is a level playing field. There are no longer valid reasons to exempt Chinese manufacturers via exemptions that support developing countries; China has the second largest economy and largest manufacturing base. They've clearly 'arrived', so why help a ruthless competitor that has no qualms in stealing intellectual property and pretends that patents and copyright agreements don't apply to them? The answer is to support domestic manufacturers, whose prices will adjust once the unfair competition shrivels away. Thanks for making this video, well done.
The US has massive shipping advantages compared to most other countries in the world. The UPU deal China has makes it possible for them to compete, the story isn't the other way around. If you want to see how much shipping can cost to move a CD-sized package five blocks, come over to Canada sometime. $20.
A while back Jimmy DiResta started getting some batches to his ice picks made in China to keep up with demand, didn't price gouge by selling them cheaper. Of course his viewers complained (the usual buy local, support USA blah blah) so he offered a 10% bounty for anyone who could either make them locally, or find a local manufacturer. No-one took him up the offer. Sometimes it hard to support domestic when domestic can't be bothered...
Thanks Jon..top shelf content & useful information..the can of worms you opened with this dialogue will reap endless discussion and hand wringing..easier to climb Everest than discipline oneself to buy domestic, and equally difficult finding something you need that's still made domestically..what a damn mess! I personally stay away from either of these pirates and encourage anyone who'll listen to do likewise..thanks for sharing sir!
John, this is one of the best and most informative TH-cam videos I have ever seen. This content is thoughtful and well researched. I will not be buying from Banggood (talk about a terrible inuendo, worse than Pokémon) or Temu or Harbor Freight even if I have to buy fewer tools. These people are deliberately trying to destroy our industry and by that us. Thank you so much. Most Cordially David McGuinn.
Ok, I appreciate the passion, but there are problems. Let's start off with subsidies. You are incorrect about the subsidies from outside China. This were subsidies for a developing country, there are haven't been since 1/1/21. There are subsidies - from the Chinese government. Some people will argue this is unfair, but Bastiat's Broken Window Fallacy can explain why the western consumers are the winners and the Chinese people are the losers from this kind of subsidy. Most Chinese goods do not come in these subsidy free shipments like you imply. Direct Temu or Bangood purchases are not the norm, so showing the 60% is and then talking about the minimum is odd. I mean, where do those Gap Tariffs fall on the chart? Tariffs are not fair play anyway. They're a tax that specifically against a market the government doesn't like. Since 2017 or so there were a large number of Tariffs added, which are functionally sales taxes but since they are paid by the distributor there's an idea that the taxes are therefore not paid by people buying the goods. This is a misunderstanding of costs. It's just a hidden tax you're paying at "The Gap" for the Chinse jeans. Tariffs are an idea popular with politicians and with businesses who want to hurt competition, but make average people pay more. They're also extremely regressive. They hurt the cheap goods that poor people need the most, while doing essentially nothing to increase purchases of "local goods", if economics even suggested that was a good thing to do. After the recent Tariffs the prices of many staple goods for manufacturing shot up. Like all policies that start of "well intentioned", we're the ones who lost from this. I'm angry for the poor people whose lives were made worse because of the Tariffs, not because a few people use Temu or Bangood directly. I don't approve of IP infringement, but the "fake" may not necessarily be a fake, and it's worth thinking about. With a brand like Rockler, all of the products are made by some third party and rebadged. This isn't unusual. It's not like Sears & Roebuck was producing the Kenmore or Craftsman goods they sold in the good old days. It's very possible that a "fake" product from China is the exact same good that was produced in the same factory with different markings and maybe an ever so slightly different mold. Tools with electronics or moving parts, like the Mini Table saw, are much more likely to be a step down. It's much less obvious when you cut internal corners than when you cut corners on a solid block of metal. This doesn't mean a clone is legal. A company like Rockler may not produce their own goods, but they'll design many of their own goods or customize other designs to have them made. They will enter into an agreement with the manufacturer who will promise not to produce the design for anyone else, but the manufacturer can break the agreement, or send a gray market copy of the tooling to a partner to make the product. This is illegal, but it can be tough to litigate especially for a foreign company in China, and the companies are usually have to work on keeping the product in China instead of stopping the production. A clone like the Pocket Hole Jig is likely to be completely legal. Outside of patents, there's (largely) nothing keeping someone from looking at a tool and saying "I'll make my own which works the same way". Massca's jig is solid, but for better or worse it's made of extremely simple parts. It's the kind of computer designed and cut product that's easy to clone, and that's why it's become an extremely popular clone target. Many of the Woodpeckers tools have ersatz clones heading to the market as soon as the one-time tool appears because they can look at the video and try to make a copy. These clones are usually a step off of Woodpecker's design, but many of them work. Assuming there's no patent, the copying of the Woodpeckers block is something a US company could do as legally as a Chinese company. The only thing WP could fight on is the color Red depending on their trademark status, but the law is AOK with this kind of "no gray area theft". The copy did not even steal the dimensions or clamp style of the original. The Microjig block has been patented, but I suspect based on the recent Milescraft GrabberPRO and another generic clone appearing on Amazon in the past year or so that at least some of the patents are expiring. (There was an older clearly-patent avoiding device, the Del-Mar, but it stunk). That means that the play by the rules no-copy time is over. You can once again argue about the copying of the colors or other IP issues (more here than with the WP blocks), but just copying a Grr-Ripper appears to be to largely legal now. Technology advances because we're allowed to copy things, not despite it. There are rules, but they're not the rules you think they are. There are some shady areas on Bangood, Temu, Aliexpress and we can argue about economic theory, but you've got some info dead wrong.
We used to have the opposite problem to de minimis in the EU. When we ordered from China, low value items would sometimes arrive without issue, and at other times our goods would be stopped at customs, assessed for import duty, then the courier would charge us for the import duty, the assessment and the collection fee, so a 10p import duty would turn into a £8 ($10) charge. When you placed an order, you had no idea whether you would win the customs lottery and get goods slightly cheaper or lose and pay more in fees than the goods were worth. Now, the EU (and by extension the U.K. through grandfathered rules) require import duties to be paid at source, so we always have to pay the duty, but we are never charged for it to be collected, it is just built into the purchase price. Since these sites have to be able to do this for the EU & UK market, requiring it for the US market really shouldn't be *that* difficult to arrange.
Huge respect for doing this video. Wonderful job. Temu and Banggood are cheap because their products and customer service is cheap. You are correct. They are stealing our personal information.
You're confusing the Chinese sites with Facebook. What "personal information" is there to steal for Temu, Banggood and AliEx? My credit card number? My PayPal email address? Give me a break. This anti-China (example anti-TikTok) rhetoric like the anti-Hauwei before it, it a complete fabrication by some US companies with the assistance of local, state and federal agencies. That they've roped some other countries into this scam is a real shame. Did you ever see the hit-piece published in Bloomberg about SMC servers? More FUD, never published a retraction.
Amen. I'm not struggling to feed myself or keep a roof over my head, so I'm happy to pay my taxes and R&D expenses for the benefit of both myself, and the rest of my society, especially for my neighbors who CAN'T easily afford those expenses and taxes. Thank you for making this video.
It is a buyer beware sort of thing. We do live as a Market Economy and people go where the best buy is. BUT with that said I do see a theft of creation here in some of the products. But more common tools are a different story. Clamps? Wrenches? Sockets? and so on, EVERY one makes them.... So how do we fix this? Never buy at Harbor Freight or Temu or... Yes that is one way but we need to look at the tools we do buy here. Craftsman, made in China, Milwaukee, (I am a big fan), China, Mexico and Viet Nam, Festool, Germany until the guide rail factory opened in the US in 2017. No one is going to give up their Festool saw or sander or vacuum or God forbid, Domino. The made in USA only tools are high priced and the quality's seems to be better. I am a semi-pro woodwoker. I do not have the budget for the luxury of USA only. I am as patriotic as anyone but money is the driver of my purchases. My shop is bigger than most. I have tools from big to small made just about everywhere in the world, based on my evaluation of cost to quality. I do support American companies and look here first and have plenty of Made In The USA stamped tools. I have a 1025R John Deere tractor and a big part of my decision to buy it was Made In USA compared to the other 5 tractor brands I shopped. But its not. Most is here but the engine, Yanmar made is Japan. Do I cry foul? No, because JD did a cost to quality comparison as chose the best option. How about licensing companies overseas, and allow the consumer decide if the quality to price is worth it. That way if a USA company does not get the sale, at least they get a value for their invention. One thing for sure when living in a Market Economy, it's complicated. The thing is the Economy is the world now, and we have to live in that.
I remember when many of the small but high quality, North American tools started to be sold. It was great to purchase something that worked. So today I don't buy anything that is clearly a copy. I buy the real thing or not at all.
I think the majority of US companies and tools are just plain too expensive. It has nothing to do with product development or production costs. It's purely about greed and inflation. I think it's great that there are knock-offs created in china and that the quality of those are almost on par. This means that we have a balance in the market that defines what the true value of the product is. Patents are all bullshit excuses for not trusting you'll be the best producer, best customer experience, at the best price. With some creativity you can have all 3. Overpriced Woodpeckers tools has nothing to do with their quality of place of manufacture. It is purely about that they have created a brand that people (apparently) want to pay for and that's fine. Some people want to buy a brand, others want to just buy the thing that gets the job done.
It’s hard to be the best price when you produce domestically. That’s the whole point of this video. Here in the USA we have laws in favor of the laborers. Unlike china and many other countries where the going pay rates are absolutely abysmal. Do you want to keep supporting those sad labor practices? Or support your neighbors and buy domestically sourced and produced products? Your call…
There's something funny about woodworkers complaining about intellectual property theft... Is every piece they produce truly unique, or was it "inspired by" another woodworker's brand and style, and they just swooped in to clean up off of their success? And don't get me started on how many woodworking logos are clones of each other...
@@LincolnstwwI think we all generally understand your message. The problem is you chose Woodpecker. It isn’t a company that intends to offer “good value” to its customers. It sells prestige and luxury similar to luxury shoe and handbag brands.
@@keithc1335 I chose jessem , microjig and collins too. People choose to latch onto woodpeckers because they dont like them. Yet I made my point about made in the US while showcasing all of the companies.
They may be just a cheaper alternative. They are not fake if they are not trying to mislead by actually saying they are Rockler, Woodpecker etc. we are all trying to make a living. Some of us can do it by not needing sponsors or by slagging off other companies.
I was afraid this was gonna be another sponsored Temu video that everyone seems to be doing. Pleasantly surprised and this needs to be discussed. I will never buy copies, I'd rather save up and do the right thing there's no excuse. We don't NEED any of this stuff right this minute.
100% correct on the actual revenue being in the data captured. I purchased a guitar kit. It was from the web site, but the tracking information indicated that it was actually Temu, or shipped using Temu. Almost immediately after making this purchase, my email has been hit daily with multiple phishing attempts. Most of them have been "You have been selected" indicating some kind of reward program from a big retailer like Lowe's, but a few have been "warnings" about financial activity.
Thanks for bringing this up Jon, it's very hard to resist a bargain but as you say we're undercutting western companies who are forced to play by different, more expensive rules. I've stopped buying anything from Bangood won't buy anything from Temu.
I didn't hear you mention how some manufacturers have their products made in China and then shipped to world markets with a healthy markup in price. Then when marketer has finished with their product they shutdown the manufacturing. But China keeps the design, opens manufacturing again and sells under a different name. An example was some of Honda's scooter lines. When Honda discontinued their line of scooters, China just kept on making them under a different name. Hence why the spare parts are completely interchangeable. China's copyright laws are not the same as they are in other countries and allow this to happen.
I have no issues with any person or company outsourcing their own goods. I think I saw that router plane available for sale on banggood shortly after. No one in this comments section should take a stance to never buy anything from overseas, instead I hope people are open to the idea that when it's possible, supporting things made in your own country is a good thing but sadly there are a lot of factors at play against those companies.
Thanks for sharing this report. Unless we stop buying these knockoffs, our manufacturing jobs will all go overseas. Both Republicans and democrats need to address issues like these.
The jobs are already overseas for even the main brands, these policies are backed by both Democrats and Republicans, and they can't exactly declare economic war on China.
My personal choice is to boycott "companies" like Bangood and Temu. I also choose to learn from you and numerous others' experiences buying and reviewing the products from those operators. Thank You!!! I have also wasted plenty of money on cheap, shitty tools throughout my life. NOT WORTH IT! I operate from the perspective of "buy the best you can afford, and don't be cheap about it". Something else thing I learned through my years in construction and being roofing contractor, "If you think it's expensive to hire a good roofer, try hiring a cheap one". Enough said. Thanks again for another great share. Cheers!
The TEMU app is also TEMUing with malware. The company behind it was caught using a bunch of malware code that spied on the users far more than whatever the appstores actually allow and had to shut the app down. The same dev team then made TEMU.
ok, ima adding my two cents worth on this topic: when companies have something made under license in china, many of them have to register in china and essentially then become a chinese company. so then all of their patents and intellectual property becomes property of the chinese govt. so then what happens is anyone is free to copy the item and sell it for whatever they can get on the open market. oftentimes the item sell for less than half of what the materials alone in the US would cost. the chinese can do lots of things well but cooking steel and other metals is not one of them. while the tools you buy from temu or banggood or whoever else might be well made, you can never overcome the shitty metallurgy that went into the steel. temu or banggood will never see one red cent out of me for the crap they peddle. it's time we stop bankrolling the ccp by buying their crappy wares. a good friend of mine was in china for a few months and was shocked at what he saw. what we get here in the west are factory seconds. the stuff that meets spec never leaves china
Who’s stealing from who? Why is it fine for a US company to sell it for 300% markup when they are getting it created for pennies in China anyways. If anything it just shows what a ridiculous markup US has on their products. Also if the US products were that much superior in quality, then people wouldn’t be buying it. But the fact they’re able to shows there isn’t much difference. Is Harbor Freight stealing from snapon for making a $300 roll cart compare to snapons $2.2k one?
@@mawrkk Well it has to do with product development. If you create a innovative product that individuals like, and get copyrights. If someone starts making the same thing violating your copyrights you would sue it to stop. If it is done by another country that doesn't recognize your copyrights (it's extremely hard to get copyrights in different countries, China is especially hard). Well you then stop them from selling on different sites. When those sites are owned by foreign countries, you can't do anything. This hurts product brands, and developers. People don't know what goes into product development in time money resources. They may be reproduced even by the same factory that was hired by initial company, it still hurts the brand and more the development people involved...
Great video, 1st time viewer. Might just take up your course. Regarding those clamping brackets. If you notice they are identical. Harbor Freight does the same thing. They are Seconds meaning that they didn't quite meet the design requirements. For me, I do go to Harbor Freight a lot. The Family Handyman magazine did an article once on Name Brand vs HF. This is what TFH said. They said if you use your tools a lot, go with name brand tools. If you're going to use them sparingly/not very much, go with HF & save some money. As far as Temu goes, I've heard that their things are pure crap. So no, I will not buy from them. Good video, I like these from time to time 👍👍👍
why would I pay more in the same product, and the US government take my tax money to support wars... I'll buy the Chinese one because I work hard for my money as simple as that...
I'll choose the Made in China version because the people who made it worked longer, in worse conditions and for less pay than the ones who were responsible for the Made in USA version
@@G0F15H oh, yes, because Americans have such great working conditions, with 10 vacation days a year, the constant fear of being fired due to at-will laws, total lack of medical insurance and non-existant pensioning. And of course a minimum wage so low that many work 2 jobs.
@nomen.nescio Clearly you don't get it. Your entire argument is the reason why these jobs are being outsourced overseas and imitation products can steal sales based simply on price. All that crap drives up the cost to make the good. Those are all first-world problems, and first world economies have moved on from Manufacturing to Service. You're not supposed to make a career out of working entry-level job(s). Minimum wage isn't intended to equal a living wage, at least not how most Americans decide to live (with their car, internet, cable TV, cell phones, etc.). You think factory workers in Asia and Central America don't have those same desires? Dude, most of them don't even get a choice as to where they have to work and they're laboring just be able to buy some food. My initial comment was intended to be a joke because at the end of the day I really don't care where something is made. "Made in the USA" doesn't inherently make a product any better than something that's "made in anywhere-else-in-the-world." I buy the product that is the best value, plain and simple.
a lot of these tools were made in china independently already for sale on alibada, etc that some american company saw and ordered a bunch with their label to import and sell for twice as much.
Nice video and always good to compare. Personally, I have both Bessey and Veiko clamps. The Bessey has nicer grip, while the Veiko has more strong holding - Bessey is sometimes too loose. Also have the Hongdui miter bar which I think is ok but I had expected more. But cannot compare to the "original" one. I can also recommend the Hongdui Clear Cut as alternative to the "original" Jess Em. It has outstanding quality. To sum up, in my opinion you can get excellent quality from "China products" if you do not reach out for the ones at 5% of the original cost, but if you are ready to spend 70-80% of the original price you will also get decent quality.
I am considering buying the course. I mainly make content with the tool sounds and no voice over. Will the course be a benefit to me because I don't do many voice overs?
I think almost all of it would. This course is less about “do this, this and this” Instead it’s about over arching concepts and understanding analytics etc
As a new hobbyist woodworker on a budget I do admit that i have purchased items from them, I will say that any items I have purchased have not been things like clamps, pocket-hole jigs, etc that are normally quite pricey..... Except for the glue tray and brush, I fell for that one. I am a person that much like you does not agree with the stealing of intellectual property. Your thoughts were a big breath of fresh air
All great points, except for the square. There is nothing special about R&Ding those squares except for them always being square and that's not really something you can steal. You still need to develop your own manufacturing to ensure squareness. So the Chinese knockoffs are copying the look, sure, but the value is in the squareness not the image so if they are always just as square then great. You tend to trust the red because its always square. If the Chinese knockoff is always square too then, who cares about the color. This type of action (where the product is just as good) is only possible when your profit margins are insane, otherwise there's no room for the knockoff to fit in. Remember, a square isn't a new and innovative product.
The idea of abuaing patents is systematic in China. Look at the Landwind x7, its a direct copy of a Range Rover sport and even a company that large cant protect their trademarks because i think they would have to sue them in the Chinese courts who would just rule against any foreign companies.
Great video! I appreciate your message. I try to have integrity in my purchases and only buy quality items from reputable sellers. I buy from the store when I can and order from the company when I need to. I try to avoid even shopping from Amazon anymore as much as I can help it. You may not be able to buy your integrity, but you sell it off a little more each and everytime you go with the lowest bidder support those who lie, cheat and steal. Or who are otherwise unethical.
Yes, certainly unlike all the other videos on this topic Jon and something you should indeed be proud of. Rest assured it will get plenty of well considered views, and needed to be said. I recently bought the last/only model of New Balance running shoes still made in the USA. They cost literally twice as much as offshore production, but doing my part.
You forgot one important case - many of the products you see in places like Banggood, Temu, Aliexpress, etc. are not knockoffs. They are literally the same thing you see in a major brand hardware store sold as brand name products. Why? Because the big brand name vendor is not really manufacturing them for cost reasons anymore, they are only rebranding a generic item sourced in Asia and reselling them under their name - and with a hefty premium. Then you get exactly the same generic thing sold on Banggood under various names, only missing the big name brand logo. In the best case you get at least the brand name quality control of the imported and rebranded goods - in the worst case they only slap their logo and 10x price sticker on it. So this whole "theft" business is not so black and white as you seem to make it. It is not like Western manufacturers have a legal monopoly on profits - and the Asian ones on producing and selling junk.
If you're interested in getting started in content creation or taking your current business to the next level check out The Creator Course
thecreatorcourse.com/lsw
Already signed up! My channel has done fairly well but I'm ready to learn how to take it to the next level!
Thank you so much for this, it is great to hear a TH-cam creator actually state that these products are flat out stealing. I'd rather pay 2-4 times the price for the real one, rather than supporting a communist regime that calls us their enemy.
I got incredible value out of the Creator Course! It has shortened my learning curve and introduced me to a community of like-minded creators who help each other immensely with improving our businesses and our value to our audiences. Jon, we really value your ongoing contribution to the course and the community!! 🔥
Your commercialization of this site has cheapened it. It's no longer the same quality as it used to be.
amazon does the same thing. they get someone to sell a product, then they mimic it and sell it for less and kick the original vendor off the site
100% amazon does not "play by the rules"
And Amazon have the advantage of seeing the exact sales numbers prior to deciding what to copy. There have been loads of small creators ripped off by AmazonBasics, etc
Yes, they use their vendors' inside information on sales against them: if something sells well on Amazon with apparent profit they will out-compete them. It seems there are no rules of fair play.
Not the same thing, though. And is that really the game at this point. They also get criticized for largely just squeezing their sellers. The place is like Ebay, without auctions or transparency. How does that jibe with the idea they are screwing their vendors so they can take over their businesses. They have a different way of screwing their vendors.
From what I summized Amazon was a reputable seller. They seem to do their homework and choose the right vendors. Now, there's a good chance many of the products you purchase from their website are Chinese knockoffs.Or the Chinese reverse engineered a product, made it just different enough to get around our patent laws, and sell it through Amazon. But where do you go? Americans made the decision to buy cheap junk over the more expensive quality version. Harbor Freight anyone?
My dad always said everyone wants to make $50 an hour but no one wants to pay for something made by someone making $50 an hour.
Very true
In 2022 The CEO of Ford made $10,094.30 / hour.
Assuming he took no holidays or personal time off.
@@youtubuzrcan you imagine how "hard" he works? lol
The rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
The unskilled people like to talk about how hard they work or how many hours they work. The skilled people talk about how much value they created.
I can assure you whining on TH-cam won't increase your hourly rate
As someone from the rust belt, it's hard to feel bad for corporations and executives since they ruined the region sending jobs overseas, now the chickens have come home to roost it seems. Hopefully this spurs some policy action, that's the only effective way to limit knockoff's reaching the market. And hopefully this spurs companies to keep manufacturing domestic to protect IP
Amen. Those companies invested a lot of time and money to set up the import cheat codes that allowed them to unfairly compete with domestic production in the first place. They raised and fed the beast that we're now trying to fend off.
👏👏👏👏👏
Sadly, it won't because those same executives, and venture capitalists, that sent those jobs overseas are making more money through these "agreements" than they would if we moved that production back to the US.
Yeah, they cry poverty but half of it is their own profit erring. Development costs? How much does it cost develop a goddam square? And then another, slightly bigger one? And then - get this - another slightly smaller one? They charge eighty bucks cause they can, and there's no moral argument that we shouldn't pay $25 for the same crap because we can.
You think it matters where these are manufactured? All these commie countries just blatantly steal everything, I mean they even stole the atomic bomb, even our space shuttle. As for the rust belt - the reason the corporations left is because they had to deal with all the corrupt unions there. Many of those corporations went south, while manufacturing went to China because people at Walmart want whatever is cheapest, not what is made in the US by insanely overpriced union labors who give half their earnings to the mob and Democrat party. In any case, please do us a favor and stay there in the rest belt and stop moving to the south, we don't need you leftists coming here and destroying where we live like you destroyed where you live.
As European, the main reason for buy the cheap knockoff is that they are delivered in Europe. Most of US companies do not give a crap about the other markets and this is a short-sighted approach...
You are right. I have a few tools from woodpeckers and they are great. But esp. Woodpeckers charge so high shipping costs. In my opinion they make an extra money with the shipping costs. I think, they do not care for international customers. So why to buy from them?
^ Exactly...
Tbh, I wasn't aware that the BG/Temu products were "counterfeits" of products from other companies.
However, as you mentioned, those major companies don't seem to care about the EU market.
I just verified for myself. Purchasing a "counterfeit" 3D Pushblock on BG only cost me 35€ with no additional shipping fee. Granted, I'll receive it in four weeks, but that's not a concern for me.
On the official website, MicroJIG, 35€ doesn't even cover the shipping cost to France. The shipping alone is 60€, and the Pushblock is another 60€.
That's a grand total of 120€ compared to BG's 35€.
Seriously USA....
I'm Canadian. I'm seeing $30 shipping on a $100 tool from the US. 10 to 20 days. Free almost overnight (3 days) shipping from China.@@klausschleicher523
@@klausschleicher523 -- Curiously, it isn't the American manufacturers, it's the US Postal System and its exorbitant shipping rates, which in turn encourage the parcel delivery companies to jack up THEIR fees too. Check around; there are a few US parcel forwarding outfits that will consolidate multiple purchases for you and ship them together at about the cost of a single item. I speak from experience as a US expat living permanently in Japan.
One of my favorite hobbies when traveling throughout Eurpoean countries was to find the local hardware stores and spend time leisurely walking the aisles and looking at their unique tools. Sure, there were off brands but the Europeans seemed to still prefer selling and buying quality tools from Germany, Italy, France...
I'm not passing any judgment... but... 1st world companies have their products made over seas for much less than they can make the same products with domestic workers. They pocket a lot of that profit. I used to work for a domestic injection mold maker. Our customers moved a lot of mold making to China. They didn't care that it was painful for us and other domestic workers. I feel for the domestic workers, but have less sympathy for the domestic companies. Ironically, one of our customers makes woodworking products. One of the reasons they used domestic toilets was so the knockoffs didn't hit the stores before their own products. I won't say who it is, but they do make the only right handed track saw I've seen.
You're absolutely correct. It goes both ways. Buying the knockoffs hurts the companies that manufacture domestically, but many other companies didn't have a care in the world about hurting the domestic worker.
Remember when the Suez Canal was blocked? I saw many an article about companies wanting to move back because it was such a disaster for them that they didn't want to deal with it again. Where are they now? Still manufacturing overseas.
And that Right-Handed track saw (which is itself a knock-off) is pure junk. :) But their MFT knock-off is great.
@@nicklavioletteiii2183 Yeah the irony - they say one thing while doing the opposite.
It's probably why so many of those items look so similar. They're made in the same factory. Rockler slaps their name on it and charges your double for it. I'm supposed to encourage this with my buying habits
If companies are going to abuse the cheap labor of oversea manufacturing, they have every right to produce those products. And it's not like the companies don't know their IP is going to be used, they choose to do it anyway for profit. Sadly it does hurt domestic workers, but the fault lies with companies that lobby the government to allow them to do things like this. Domestic workers will make pennies regardless of where it's manufactured.
If something is made and manufactured in America I will 10/10 times pay the premium price for it but when companies charge a premium price but also have their product made overseas it’s hard for me to get behind it personally
To a point. There's a handful of made in America companies that totally price gouge because they're banking on a certain demographic and use a lot of buzzwords in their marketing and PR. A $130 mechanical pencil comes to mind...
@@nicklavioletteiii2183 Agreed 100%. If US manufactured company price gouges, like a certain one that comes in a red color many TH-cam woodworkers stand in front of a wall of, I'll look towards a quality knock-off. Quality being the key word here. There is still a ton of absolute crap being made in and shipped from China. I'll buy US made/manufactured items all the time, but I'm also no fool.
Until our elected officials stop taking "influences" from sources to ignore the issues and not change the laws, the playing field will remain the same.
@@csimet Agreed, same boat here. I'm willing to buy American, but I'm not about to spend $100 on something like a square or other relatively basic tool. Hell, you can get a whole set of machinist squares that are very affordable.
Yep, most of the products are US design but manufactured oversea just like clothing.
Tell me what items in Homedepot, Lowes, and Ace Hardware are manufacture in US. Am I a bad person now if I purchase through Temu, and Bandgood cutting out the middle man?
I am trying to survive in this economy
agreed 100%@@nicklavioletteiii2183
I worked for a US clothing and sporting goods manufacturing company for almost a decade. They stopped having anything manufactured in China because the factory would spit out "knock offs" after they were done making our order and then sell them for the price we were paying them. Which like you said doesn't cover the investment we put into the R&D of the product. Often the knock offs would be using different materials, in some cases they would drastically affect the potential lifespan of the item, others were using lead or other unsafe materials, and some didn't have the same performance. The other thing we noticed was intentional material swapping they'd try to do on us. They'd increase and decrease amounts in a blended material based on the current prices where we had it balanced based on optimal performance. They'd swap out for a cheaper dye that would fade in a few months when the original would last a few years.
Yep.
But I have zero sympathy for them, bc they decided that domestic workers were a line on their balance sheet, instead of people they had a responsibility to.
I saw this done about 25 years ago when I was on vacation in Hong Kong. Workers were sewing Ralph Lauren shirts with logos on industrial sewing machines, then they would stop and sew a batch of JC Penney shirts with the JCP logo and different fabrics, but same design. After done with the JCP batch they would start on the clone shirts, different (and lookalike but lesser quality) fabrics that would be sold as knockoffs, still using the RL patterns. I got the impression that the workers - many of whom doing this in their own homes - were getting paid to produce X amount of legit goods, on the click. But after hours they were free to produce their own clones, to bolster their income.
@@dottyjyoung I can't disagree after said manufacturer decided to outsource their entire IT department to India. Two years later that company called me up offering a 40% raise for me to come back and do the work of my entire four person team. They had horribly damaged it. We were counting months between overnight support calls, they were counting fractions of an hour. Things we had completing in minutes were taking hours.
I told them I didn't trust them and it would cost a little under 3x my prior paycheck to get me back. They said they couldn't afford it, I said well you should have considered that when you let us go.
@@kimanjo No, that's standard practice in their country's industry. I used to be an Amazon seller, & learned that factories have a practice called, "Private Labeling." They make certain goods, & then attach your logo to it. Anything from a pen to a piece of furniture. Sometimes, it's not even that Ralph Lauren's patterns are used, it's that Ralph Lauren had a factory private-label a garment for them.
@@dottyjyoung
They also (likely) went to the lowest cost bid, bases on the story, and thusly, the manufacturer made up for the lack of profit by making the knock offs.
If they paid more to a reputable Chinese company they could avoid that.
Anyone can hit the internet wheel and take their chances on whom they are dealing with.
I buy American when I can, but I'm not paying insane prices for pretty red machined aluminum.
Pretty red machined aluminum with QA policies that ensure extremely tight tolerances, in Woodpeckers case. Depending on the work you’re doing, those tolerances may be critical or insignificant.
The cost of woodpecker products isn’t related to the cost of the materials or manufacturing. Woodpecker makes luxury goods and you are paying for the prestige. I’ve seen a lot more woodpecker products hanging on walls than actually being used.
@@keithc1335people could say the same for other luxury products if they didn’t understand that price tag is also usually associated with industry innovation, like the S-class of vehicles from Mercedes. Woodpeckers also uses an optical calibration system for every product they make, so there’s no small discrepancies between products. That might be overkill for some, but other people may actually depend on that accuracy and are willing to pay for it
It's paying for a brand name and yes professional grade Tooling and QC. With that said, 90% of us on here are hobbyist and amateur woodworkers who do this for fun, and our human error negates the precision that these boutique tools offer at that price point. So even though you paid a small fortune for a dead accurate tool, means very little when the performance of the user cannot operate at that high of a tolerance level to begin with.
I happily own several made in America tools, but there isn't any valid reason to fork over the cost for the high end professional business grade tools (with considerable market branding) for someone who does this for fun.
And what are they innovating? It's squares and clamps. Things that have been used for generations in woodworking.
Something else to keep in mind; when companies ship their manufacturing off to China and the manufacturer creates all the tooling and such to produce a product - the manufacturer expects to run their lines 24-7. IF a company only orders 16h of product a day the other 8h of product that the manufacturer produces gets sold to wholesale companies like Temu, Bangood, Alibaba, etc. This is what accounts for some of the 'Knock Off' products you see being sold.
I was thinking the same thing - these companies looking to offshore to save a buck basically sabotage their own businesses
On a larger scale, that's what happened to Nortel in Canada. The entire company was cloned in China and they were able to hack into their customer database and R&D hard drives. All because Nortel wanted to cut costs and off shore their product development and manufacturing.
Something else to keep in mind is that, if temu can purchase the surplus product from the manufacturers and still turn a profit selling comparable products at half the price of the name brands, what does that tell u about the name brand's pricing? Might their be some price gouging? Should we be rewarding price gouging with our brand loyalty?
@@williamtaylor6252 The domestic pricing incorporates any QC work that has to be done on a finished product, as well as recoupment of R&D, certification, and licensing agreements.
@@williamtaylor6252 you mean price gouging as in investment in RnD? cost to physically make a product is less than 30% of the MSRP most of the time, rest of associated costs are in research and development, handling and not to be ignored: warranty and support. If lets say zou have to replace every 50th product due to some warranty claim, you have to account for that in the price for the consumer whether you like it or not. Most physical goods companies operate with margin of under 30% and if you want to invest in developing new products and support your existing custommers, you cant compete on price with companies that does neither and does not even pay import taxes...
paying $120 for corner clamps is crazy, they should spend less money on lawyers trying to take them down and trying to cut down on competition and make their product more competitive and care about the buyer more than their absurd prices. people like me can't afford those prices, so ill take the chinese stuff
Exactly! Lawyers are the root of all evil, and so are patents ;)
Funny that one of your examples was spring clamps - just last week I ordered some extra spring clamps off of Amazon to supplement the ones I had. $8 and change for 8 clamps and a pretty good pliers (which I didn’t need). Junk! The teeth didn’t meet in the middle, so the clamp torqued itself off my mitre every time I tried to put it on. Returned those and paid $38 for twelve Collins clamps (no pliers). They are the brand I already had and I knew they would work flawlessly, and they did. Sometimes you get what you pay for.
If the product is made in the USA, I will buy the USA made product. If the product is made in China but the company is headquartered in the US, I'll buy the cheaper one that is made in China.
I can't argue with that logic at all
The US company is still employing marketing, sales, shipping, product managers, and R&D teams. They are also paying import duties and charge sales tax. This contributes to the higher price.
This actually makes a lot of sense if you want to support local manufacturers.
At least in that case, more of the money goes to the people who produced the product.
I still have a problem with seeing a big sticker on a product that says Made in the USA with globally sourced parts. So first, its not "made" in the USA. It's assembled in the USA. And second, am I supposed to feel better that Americans are assembling a bunch of inferior parts made in China? Would you feel comfortable if your heart surgery was performed by an American doctor, but your new heart was made in China?
I sympathize for the domestic companies that actually do everything domestically but for those that ship off to another country to take advantage of basically slave labor rates and still want to charge premium prices on their products I couldn't care less.
Can’t argue with that
Like apple and their new $1000 iPhone that comes out basically every year. Cost them less than $10 to make
That's short minded. Why do you care how much their cost is? None of your business. Is anyone questioning you how hard you work for your money?
We all purchase stuff based on the value they provide. Period.
@@woodworkingandepoxy643you are obviously way over your head $10 😂
Each apple engineer is paid 10x your wage and selling $15 phones won't cover for it.
@@b3arwithm3 if you don't care about literal children being forced to make products for pennies then pay hundreds for it something is wrong with you. Kids shouldn't be forced to do shit
Very well done!!
Thanks for sharing and hopefully getting some meaningful conversations started.
Many thanks for all you do!
Thanks for calling it out straight. Exposing the tax loophole created about 100 years ago that allows Temu and other companies to pay $0 in taxes was money (pun intended). Same for pointing out subsidized shipping that allows them the deliver so quickly at such low rates.
If you want to talk about tax loopholes...start by looking at who our tax code most benefits first. Robert Kiyosaki and others will massively change your perspective.
@@jpcreativeimagery Thanks for the provocative reply. I don’t have a perspective on who our tax code benefits that one could fit in a nutshell. It seems you do, however. Chances of me reading Kiyosaki’s books books or website (presuming he has one) searching for nuggets of information that will change my perspective on the tax code is nil. I’d genuinely appreciate it if you’d nutshell what Kiyosaki says. Who does the tax code most benefit in your view?
I totally get what you are saying, I do. I promise you I really do. But let's be clear about one thing. Woodpeckers charge an insane amount of money. Like eat a bag of dicks kind of money. I own an actual made in the USA Gripper. And I do my best to support American workers. But American companies need to also do more to support American consumers. I make $25 an hour. A 24 inch Woodpeckers T-Square costs $140 with tax and the cheapest shipping it comes to $172. That means I have to work 6.88 hours to pay for a friggin t-square?? That's a hard no for me man. I build stuff for fun. I make planter boxes and end tables for my mom. I make a microwave carts for my kid. That kind of thing. I like working with wood, I don't get paid for it. Nobody is giving me money for the things I build that I can then reinvest in better tools. My Skil table saw cost the same $300 as a Woodpeckers 26 inch Square. That ain't right. How does a saw with a motor in it cost the same as a framing square??? I simply can not make that work for me. So I will buy whatever the big box store has or occasionally something on Amazon. No apologies.
A lot of good points here.
You'd actually need to work a fair bit more time to get that $172 because you forgot to take into account that you don't actually bring home $25/hr
I can't argue with that and woodpeckers definitely has positioned themselves as a super premium brand. Seems like they are starting to offer lower priced items
@@deadtolove And that Woodpeckers T-square isn't going to make that microwave cart turn out any better than the Empire from Lowe's but get a couple of those red tools, start a TH-cam channel, and watch the subscribers flood in.
High prices doesn't mean premium. It means high prices. As the person above mentioned, justifying their prices is difficult even for me, and I make a six figure salary on my day job. I purchased one thing from woodpeckers, a tri-ruler. Yes it was pretty and red and hefty, but was no more accurate than the one I purchased from Iguage.
On a different note I love your videos and your straight forward attitude. Keep up the good work and I will continue to watch and support your channel. Thanks for all you do.@@Lincolnstww
Great video and judging by the number of comments you've succeeded in creating dialogue. Not too long ago I bought a router lift from BangGood that was endorsed by Dennis from Hooked on Wood. Coincidentally I fitted it just yesterday and I can vouch that the quality is outstanding. I'm from the UK and agree that you should support your own country but when BangGood are producing quality items at half the price you're never going to get enough loyalty from your own people.
Allow me to disagree. There's no way fake woodpecker tool buyers and real woodpecker tool buyers overlap. Believing that anybody would buy woodpecker instead of temu (or otherwise) is ludicrous. These are completely different target audiences. So since woodpecker is de facto not losing any sales to temu, it's unwarranted to call that theft. Now if they were to sell those AS woodpecker tools, that would be unscrupulous.
As a Canadian, what I find frustrating is that US companies seem to willfully ignore our (Canadians) existence. There are PLENTY of companies that have absolutely no problem shipping from the US to Canada for reasonable rates, proving it can be done. But far more companies seem to not know about us, or care. By no means do I expect the same "free domestic shipping" that is offered by so many companies in the US, just, reasonable rates. They either will simply not offer shipping to Canada at all, or if they do, it is for prices that can often exceed the price tag of the products you are buying. It makes no sense. I'd be happy to purchase quality tools (and consumables) from US manufacturers, but not if the shipping prices are going to double the final price. But while plenty of companies HAVE figured out that Canada exists, far more seem to not know about us, or care.
If the US did not ignore your existence, they would have invaded you years ago.
I’m looking at hopefully adding Jess Em tool soon there are a Canadian company
So true. Happened to me with a very popular TH-cam woodworker. I tried ordering tools and the shipping and duty were more than the tools themselves and there is no way I could justify that as much as I appreciate what they are doing.
Hey, it’s not just Canada…I’m in Alaska which is a US state and I deal with the every freaking day too. In fact, a lot of companies will ship to Canada but still won’t ship to Alaska.
I hear you. It sucks.
Some companies seem to be using shipping as a junk fee so they don't have to show the real price. Woodpeckers, for instance, spams me twice a day. Some of the things I'd buy (e.g. router bits) but when I get to the checkout, they want $10 for shipping. Um, no thanks. They could just drop it in an envelope and mail it.
I was not expecting such an in depth explanation. You were very educational and explained clearly the problems occurring. That is why, when able to, purchase from companies making items in your own country.
I think this was a very good (and fresh) take on the issue, thanks for bringing more to this comparison than just "which are crappy clones and which are good quality clones". I also think you shed light on some of the underlying systems that feed into this landscape without sounding fear-mongering, which can be tricky to do, I definitely learned new information from this video :)
Chy-nah baaa-aaad!!!
Some of those brands stupidly don’t service the Australian market, or they get a massive mark-up, these sites give us access to products we’ve been unable to get.
Australian companies are stupid. Seriously stupid. Tried to buy some electronic earmuffs, screwed me around for so long (make an account, won't tell me the price blah blah) I eventually just ordered them from Amazon US for half the price. Same for respirators, got an email demanding to know why I wanted them! Jezz, eff off.
How hard is it: I give you money, you send me stuff.
Buy local? Screw that.
but access to inferior products sadly
I agree with what you said except one thing. You pointed to the wood pecker square that cost 125$ for two. We all know we need 4. That’s 250$ for a square. Squares have been around for as long as wood working and to think one can justify that price is ridiculous. As long as it’s square and can be clamped, it will work. My point is this company puts their name on some things and charges an unbelievable price knowing their fans will buy them. It’s disheartening at best. Let’s face it, this company has done a great job of taking others products and making them better. But good grief, it’s a corner square. I’m a bit surprised you bought into them.
Ironically TH-cam inserted a promo from Bangood in the middle of your video urging me to by a cheese grater that was less than half the price of the same grater on Amazon. I appreciate your work, keep the videos coming.
And here we go. Woodpeckers has just put up a sale this morning illustrating exactly what I was talking about. They have some original products, but, IMO, the vast majority of their catalog consists of knock-offs of other people's products. They might make a few tweaks, but primarily what they're doing is making the color scheme red, sometimes with some black. I get it, that some woodworkers are so far out in the weeds that they've never seen these products before and therefore think Woodpeckers are master designers and engineers coming up with every great idea. OK, they have some production in the USA, but that doesn't make them any less of knock-off artists when they're stealing ideas from Europeans, Chinese and even other Americans.
Today's product: The Sandstand. 100% ripped off design. Even their Paulini pocket rules are ripped off - and on sale today too. I have a number of Woodpeckers products and I'll likely buy more, but it's important to recognize where they stand. Once you order from them and start getting the emails, you can see they're like a "As Seen on TV" outfit, marketing their products like they're at a flea market. Yeah, the emails are annoying and rapid-fire.
Ok I gotta fire back on this one. “ hey you stole that from a Chinese company “ SAID NO ONE PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. ( other than fire works ) lol
@@joelw6215 ur slow american mind really thinks that a few hundred years of woodworking can compete with thousands from the chinese?
@@joelw6215 You do realize that America is like.. 300 years old, vs China and Europe who have been doing woodworking for literally thousands of years lol
One part that's not talked about much on the fake/counterfeit side of things is that many products *are* genuine, but are sold without license or failed QC. Or, in other words, products that a NA company didn't want for one reason or another, and the overseas manufacturer wants to offload them.
Most things from AliExpress, Temu, etc are basically one or two steps from "direct from factory", with all the pros and cons that comes with the label.
My theory is most of these knockoffs are made side by side with the “official” product and the US companies unknowingly pay for the knockoff production. Imagine Chinese manufacturer quotes $0.50 per piece to manufacture something, but they know it really only costs them $0.25 per piece…they get the contract at $0.50/per can that pays for the knockoffs’ production and the sell of the knockoffs is pure profit
@@vacrayton That probably doesn't really happen. Another poster here had a better theory where they run a factory for 24 hours a day but the American company only contracts them for 16 hours so rather than changing the tool setup, they finish the day and do 24 hours. The best pieces are kept for the 16 hour run that meets the production quota and the rest are sold off-brand to recoup/profit off of the remaining run. That made a lot of sense.
As someone who has studied accounting and economics, it is nice to see someone calling out the theft of intellectual property rather than just comparing quality. It seems too many content creators are falling for the "good bargains" trap. But i haven't seen them actually using the counterfeit crap on a major build yet.
I am in Kenya and the major brands are too expensive for a hobbyist. I have used the Chinese tools for years and they have served me well. Some of the tools worked pretty well for heavy production.
Though I haven't used the major brands to make a comparison.
One could also get the major brands from the used tools market at a lower price.
This is such a challenging issue and complex problem. It's also very similar to pirating media. The music industry took a huge hit in the digital age when people refused to pay $20 for a CD with one good track on it. Eventually, things like spotify came along and offered an attractive offering at a reasonable price, and piracy dropped substantially. Same occurred with cable, gaming, you name it. There are shades of this happening here. It's piracy. It's PAID piracy, but it is still piracy. I, for one, own a set of those knock off angle clamps, because there is NO WAY EVER would I spend the asking price from the brand name for a piece of aluminum. All the legal fights and money in the world is not going to get someone like me to throw up my hands and be gouged (in my opinion) for that product, especially if it is still made in a country with cheap labor. I will pay for quality and location of build if the price is what I consider reasonable. I've got many tools that fit this bill. I don't know if a better tariff system would work that lays the cost on the exporting country rather than the importer, but it would likely work better than the model we have now. At least it might close the gap some. Of course, it would probably discourage more people from buying more tools rather than encourage them to spend a great deal more. Not an easy problem to solve.
Very enlightening content, and as a new woodworker (old guy, but it's been 20 years since I did much woodworking), and 25 year veteran I'll be spending my money in the USA even if it costs a bit more. My wife and I have begun looking closely at where products are made, and sticking with made, and not "constructed, or assembled" in the USA has a lot of value to us. Love your channel and content.
I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for companies that ship jobs out to China.
And as an older man who probably saved your money over the years, you can afford to pay that premium. Congratulations.
@@loupeachum4747 I guess it all comes down to what anyone sees as value. Do I purchase things made outside the U. S., of course I do. Do I purchase some things that cost more than a similarly made item sure, we all do because of the old adage "you get what you pay for". Having done many contracts over the years, the terms "least cost" vs. "best value" have always got to be considered. Whenever we purchased something that wasn't the item that had the "least cost" we had to justify why it was the "best value". Does made in the USA mean it's got the best value, not always, but I've found I take that into consideration more now than I ever used to = it's now part of the equation when deciding on where and what I spend my hard earned money on. Oh, and I always look at used vs. new first. I used to buy new stuff all the time, and once I realized how much I was paying for having a "new" item that became "used" as soon as I got it, I started saving a huge amount of money and still got what I was looking for. Oh, and I fix about everything I've got, and have been doing that since I was 17 (Dad taught me how to fix a car = if I wanted to drive it, good motivation for a teen age boy who wanted a car to drive). Woodworking gives me an outlet to make new stuff, even using old stuff = reclaimed lumber and pallets. Good skills to have and I'm passing these on to my 8 grandkids.
Always appreciate your take. It’s a complex situation with nuances left and right (no pun intended). Capitalism has lifted millions out of poverty in China and other developing nations. But at what cost (to those cultures, to our American economy, to our consumerist mindset)? It’s not an easy situation with not easy answers. It’s heartbreaking to see individuals playing by the rules having their businesses in peril because of this. I’m rambling - but I appreciate your even take on it. You’re the Walter Cronkite of TH-cam woodworking content creators !
Thanks Chris. Much appreciated. So many sides to this and quite the spirited comments section so far but I'm thankful people like you get the intention of the video. thanks again made my day
Capitalism has lifted more out of abject poverty than anything else, throughout history. It's essentially eradicated abject poverty and hunger. Where it exists, it's an intentional feature of the local government, where capitalism isn't allowed.
As you note, China is now a powerhouse economy (not capitalistic anymore, BTW) well on its way and is now trying to bury us. It's rather dumb to give them the shovel.
I appreciate the video and was glad to see that you weren’t playing both sides of the coin by both talking about the negatives of temu but then also putting temu affiliate links in the video description like some other woodworking TH-camrs are doing lately (I won’t name names…).
I’m torn on this issue personally as I do think companies like woodpeckers are over-inflating the “value” of their product development and IP and passing that on to the customer in the form of higher prices. With that said, they are justified in defending their patents, and I recognize the cost that goes into doing that. Putting aside the IP/legal aspect, I am a believer that if your product is supposedly “quality” and sells for a “quality” price, then the value of that product should show in how well it works and how well it holds up over time. If your product sells for 4x more than a no-name equivalent but the equivalent works just as well and lasts just as long, I don’t think the customer should be at fault for wanting to save a buck.
You talk about taxes but american companies are well known not to pay taxes in european countries. No matter if it is Starbucks, Amazon, Ebay, Microsoft, Apple and a lot of others.
The most of them even pay very low taxes in the USA they have their constructs to avoid them.
Need to add some context here, banggood is an Amazon like company and not manufacturers they are also a proper legit company that seems to be forgotten in a lot of these videos, they also are licensed distributors for top companies like creality, wolf, new and Lenovo. Your argument here is attacking the supplier whom is no different to Amazon not the manufacturers.
Second point don’t be sucked in to think that copying these days only goes one way there are a few examples where the big boys like incra have copied in the opposite direction.
Third point the US is not their original target audience this is only a recentish growth thing and for us outside of Europe and the US these guys should be celebrated because they bring the hobby to us and have done for ages where European and US manufacturers don’t cater to us or do so at exorbitant prices.
For me I buy the best tool for the job based on availability to Australia and to a price that I can afford.
The damage to industry market also goes in both direction what happens to the manufacturers when a company pulls out and leaves them because some other third world country is now cheaper, the arguments need to be balanced. At the end of the day the more accessible woodworking and making hobbies are the more people can get into it and the greater the market becomes for these “tier 1” companies.
Great job on this and thanks for raising the concerns with these companies. Unfortunately industrial and intellectual theft is big business in China.
It's actually a little more complicated than that. In the electronics industry, the Chinese manufacturers can require you to give them the design files. Not simple the Gerber files used to produce a printed circuit board, but the schematics and parts lists also. Don't want to give it to them? They're happy to tell you to go somewhere else. The Chinese government heavily regulates Chinese businesses, and they're the ones putting the onus on those companies. Don't do it, you get fined or shut down. They have a very active program to acquire any technology they produce for other countries. Companies are being blackmailed if they want to use Chinese production facilities.
Wow Jon. Eye opening stuff here. Educational, not in a woodworking sense but, in a global economy and consumer way. From all the other TEMU TH-cam Videos I have watched, most people have conflicting views on many of the same products whether they are square or not and/or the likely hood of being durable and worth the sacrifice in build/parts quality. The quality control really doesn't seem to be there. However, I don't mind buying lower priced items if they are in effect, not worth the price of what other manufactures are pricing them at. For example, the Rockler Glue Tray and brush set. How much true R&D went into this product to justify a $15-$20 price tag? Its made of silicone, right? People been using silicone brushes in the kitchen for spreading oils and silicone cake batter stirrers or frosting spreaders for ever. The "technology" has been around far longer than it has been used in the wood shop. The R&D on this product was simply a lazy, yet creative person, saw how these items spread things and said to themselves, hey let me try spreading glue with this and see if it peels off, and it did. lol. So, if I can buy one for a lower price, then I will. However, the complete ripping off of the packaging and stock photos, is absolutely just straight out stealing!!! I would never buy it from TEMU just for that fact. I'd rather search out other companies who do not blatantly rip off other manufacturers. What I am saying is, we should be smarter consumers. There are many reputable companies that make comparable products at a lower price point.
Ehhh $120 for something that cost them $5 to make. 🤷♂️ easy choice
Facts
Machining items from billet aluminum on CNC machines is NOT cheap. The cost of metal from the mills has skyrocketed. You couldn't buy the aluminum to make one of those corner squares for $5 much less machine, anodize and package it. I showed some brass 1/2" x 1" Fillister head screws that I made for a restoration to a machine shop owner. He said, "People wouldn't understand that those are worth $150.00 apiece." Just the brass cost about $4.50 per unit and it took about 1.5 hours to make each one.
@@David-hm9ic bro, so?! With all due respect my Temu squares have been an amazing addition
This is first really nuanced exposition (not a rant!) of this thorny problem. Good job, thanks for being a smart and thoughtful guy (and informative woodworker too). Kinda funny.
Taking that gluebrush kit as an example, most products like that are made in China anyway, rockler are making $14 profit when you buy it for $15. That's profiteering. So my sympathy is a little thin for rockler etc. But a carefully designed product, one that really matters? Hmm, different story.
Im right there with you! Fair game in my eyes, but maybe switch up the packaging
The irony of US company spending millions of dollars to fight the knock offs, versus decreasing profit margins to make them more competitive with international sellers just seems so crazy to me
Somebody has to pay the salaries of engineers and product developers. It turns out that it takes them to run a business that innovates, and lawyers to protect them from people ripping off their patented inventions. Without the lawyers, they can shrink the profit margins, fire the engineers, and die a quick death. …and we get fewer innovative products to use.
Thank you for doing this. As a guy trying to start his own woodworking business you've been a huge help and this video is no different. I can see buying this cheap stuff if you're a weekend warrior... maybe... but for the long run I'd rather support businesses here at home. I get the message and appreciate that you took the time to do it. Also, I love my Lincoln ww T-shirt. Fits great 😊
Those business don't care about you.
I can see the moral dilemma for a woodworker in the US.
Buy from a US based producer and pay a bit more.
Or save money and get it from Temu.
But from the perspective of someone outside the US, I see it as less of an issue.
Take Woodpeckers for example.
If I want to buy one of their tools, because of the strength of the US dollar, I have to pretty much pay double what someone in the US would pay.
And then add shipping (which can often equal or exceed the cost of the item).
I don't know why shipping from the US is more expensive than elsewhere. But that's just the way it is.
So I don't have too many qualms about buying a woodpeckers knockoff from Temu. (Oh, and get free shipping).
Because I am not depriving Woodpeckers of a sale.
I would never have bought the tool for what I would have to pay Woodpeckers for it.
At first, I thought you jumped the shark and were doing another "I bought these woodworking tools on Temu" video. But you didn't do the shocked face thumbnail, and I've gotten used to your no BS style of presenting information. So I watched......and THANK YOU!!!! These companies are exploding and consumers are buying this crap thinking they are getting a good deal. But, I honestly don't think this is going to end well. Companies who develop products are being robbed, consumer data is not being protected, and this is going to end badly very soon. Amazon is not far behind this either, as even they can't keep up with the influx of unethical chinese knockoffs because people keep BUYING this crap! And dozens of other channels make these videos for a laugh! I am honestly very scared for the future.
The only thing I would take an exception with is that Amazon absolutely can put a complete stop to this if they wanted to. They have massive resources to apply to it, but simply don't want to as they make more money leaving it the way it is.
The same way that media companies abuse dmca takedown notices, this process could be turned 180° to actually stop knockoffs. The original product owner could simply put an exception into an Amazon product and immediately stop sale if they could prove that they have the original product design. Difference to the current process is that the product sale would stop immediately while the exception was being investigated. That would have an immediate and chilling effect on anyone selling knockoffs
Good point. You're right about Amazon and they are part of the problem
Woodpeckers are design-thieves themselves, so don't feel bad about buying a knockoff.
The solution is a level playing field. There are no longer valid reasons to exempt Chinese manufacturers via exemptions that support developing countries; China has the second largest economy and largest manufacturing base. They've clearly 'arrived', so why help a ruthless competitor that has no qualms in stealing intellectual property and pretends that patents and copyright agreements don't apply to them?
The answer is to support domestic manufacturers, whose prices will adjust once the unfair competition shrivels away. Thanks for making this video, well done.
The US has massive shipping advantages compared to most other countries in the world. The UPU deal China has makes it possible for them to compete, the story isn't the other way around.
If you want to see how much shipping can cost to move a CD-sized package five blocks, come over to Canada sometime. $20.
Because we're scared sh--tless that Chyna will destroy us. Isn't that why kids give up their lunch money to the bully??
A while back Jimmy DiResta started getting some batches to his ice picks made in China to keep up with demand, didn't price gouge by selling them cheaper. Of course his viewers complained (the usual buy local, support USA blah blah) so he offered a 10% bounty for anyone who could either make them locally, or find a local manufacturer.
No-one took him up the offer. Sometimes it hard to support domestic when domestic can't be bothered...
Thanks Jon..top shelf content & useful information..the can of worms you opened with this dialogue will reap endless discussion and hand wringing..easier to climb Everest than discipline oneself to buy domestic, and equally difficult finding something you need that's still made domestically..what a damn mess! I personally stay away from either of these pirates and encourage anyone who'll listen to do likewise..thanks for sharing sir!
This is my fake comment. Consider it my de minimis comment gift to you.
Hey, you got to see this video early.
I desire this selective treatment as well!
Full engagement activate. Numbers.
@@billymurphy3 this may or may not be an evidence of time travel
John, this is one of the best and most informative TH-cam videos I have ever seen. This content is thoughtful and well researched. I will not be buying from Banggood (talk about a terrible inuendo, worse than Pokémon) or Temu or Harbor Freight even if I have to buy fewer tools. These people are deliberately trying to destroy our industry and by that us. Thank you so much. Most Cordially David McGuinn.
Ok, I appreciate the passion, but there are problems.
Let's start off with subsidies.
You are incorrect about the subsidies from outside China. This were subsidies for a developing country, there are haven't been since 1/1/21. There are subsidies - from the Chinese government. Some people will argue this is unfair, but Bastiat's Broken Window Fallacy can explain why the western consumers are the winners and the Chinese people are the losers from this kind of subsidy.
Most Chinese goods do not come in these subsidy free shipments like you imply. Direct Temu or Bangood purchases are not the norm, so showing the 60% is and then talking about the minimum is odd. I mean, where do those Gap Tariffs fall on the chart?
Tariffs are not fair play anyway. They're a tax that specifically against a market the government doesn't like. Since 2017 or so there were a large number of Tariffs added, which are functionally sales taxes but since they are paid by the distributor there's an idea that the taxes are therefore not paid by people buying the goods. This is a misunderstanding of costs. It's just a hidden tax you're paying at "The Gap" for the Chinse jeans.
Tariffs are an idea popular with politicians and with businesses who want to hurt competition, but make average people pay more. They're also extremely regressive. They hurt the cheap goods that poor people need the most, while doing essentially nothing to increase purchases of "local goods", if economics even suggested that was a good thing to do.
After the recent Tariffs the prices of many staple goods for manufacturing shot up. Like all policies that start of "well intentioned", we're the ones who lost from this.
I'm angry for the poor people whose lives were made worse because of the Tariffs, not because a few people use Temu or Bangood directly.
I don't approve of IP infringement, but the "fake" may not necessarily be a fake, and it's worth thinking about.
With a brand like Rockler, all of the products are made by some third party and rebadged. This isn't unusual. It's not like Sears & Roebuck was producing the Kenmore or Craftsman goods they sold in the good old days. It's very possible that a "fake" product from China is the exact same good that was produced in the same factory with different markings and maybe an ever so slightly different mold.
Tools with electronics or moving parts, like the Mini Table saw, are much more likely to be a step down. It's much less obvious when you cut internal corners than when you cut corners on a solid block of metal.
This doesn't mean a clone is legal. A company like Rockler may not produce their own goods, but they'll design many of their own goods or customize other designs to have them made. They will enter into an agreement with the manufacturer who will promise not to produce the design for anyone else, but the manufacturer can break the agreement, or send a gray market copy of the tooling to a partner to make the product. This is illegal, but it can be tough to litigate especially for a foreign company in China, and the companies are usually have to work on keeping the product in China instead of stopping the production.
A clone like the Pocket Hole Jig is likely to be completely legal. Outside of patents, there's (largely) nothing keeping someone from looking at a tool and saying "I'll make my own which works the same way". Massca's jig is solid, but for better or worse it's made of extremely simple parts. It's the kind of computer designed and cut product that's easy to clone, and that's why it's become an extremely popular clone target. Many of the Woodpeckers tools have ersatz clones heading to the market as soon as the one-time tool appears because they can look at the video and try to make a copy. These clones are usually a step off of Woodpecker's design, but many of them work.
Assuming there's no patent, the copying of the Woodpeckers block is something a US company could do as legally as a Chinese company. The only thing WP could fight on is the color Red depending on their trademark status, but the law is AOK with this kind of "no gray area theft". The copy did not even steal the dimensions or clamp style of the original.
The Microjig block has been patented, but I suspect based on the recent Milescraft GrabberPRO and another generic clone appearing on Amazon in the past year or so that at least some of the patents are expiring. (There was an older clearly-patent avoiding device, the Del-Mar, but it stunk). That means that the play by the rules no-copy time is over. You can once again argue about the copying of the colors or other IP issues (more here than with the WP blocks), but just copying a Grr-Ripper appears to be to largely legal now.
Technology advances because we're allowed to copy things, not despite it. There are rules, but they're not the rules you think they are.
There are some shady areas on Bangood, Temu, Aliexpress and we can argue about economic theory, but you've got some info dead wrong.
We used to have the opposite problem to de minimis in the EU. When we ordered from China, low value items would sometimes arrive without issue, and at other times our goods would be stopped at customs, assessed for import duty, then the courier would charge us for the import duty, the assessment and the collection fee, so a 10p import duty would turn into a £8 ($10) charge. When you placed an order, you had no idea whether you would win the customs lottery and get goods slightly cheaper or lose and pay more in fees than the goods were worth.
Now, the EU (and by extension the U.K. through grandfathered rules) require import duties to be paid at source, so we always have to pay the duty, but we are never charged for it to be collected, it is just built into the purchase price.
Since these sites have to be able to do this for the EU & UK market, requiring it for the US market really shouldn't be *that* difficult to arrange.
Huge respect for doing this video. Wonderful job. Temu and Banggood are cheap because their products and customer service is cheap. You are correct. They are stealing our personal information.
You're confusing the Chinese sites with Facebook. What "personal information" is there to steal for Temu, Banggood and AliEx? My credit card number? My PayPal email address? Give me a break. This anti-China (example anti-TikTok) rhetoric like the anti-Hauwei before it, it a complete fabrication by some US companies with the assistance of local, state and federal agencies. That they've roped some other countries into this scam is a real shame. Did you ever see the hit-piece published in Bloomberg about SMC servers? More FUD, never published a retraction.
Might be confusing personal information theft with certain American companies, Temu and Banggood are cheap because their labor power is cheap.
You sir, are amazing. Thank you for bringing this to light for those who have not already realized this.
Amen. I'm not struggling to feed myself or keep a roof over my head, so I'm happy to pay my taxes and R&D expenses for the benefit of both myself, and the rest of my society, especially for my neighbors who CAN'T easily afford those expenses and taxes. Thank you for making this video.
Preach
The reason you are poor is because of high taxes and inflation created by a corrupt government.
It is a buyer beware sort of thing. We do live as a Market Economy and people go where the best buy is. BUT with that said I do see a theft of creation here in some of the products. But more common tools are a different story. Clamps? Wrenches? Sockets? and so on, EVERY one makes them....
So how do we fix this? Never buy at Harbor Freight or Temu or... Yes that is one way but we need to look at the tools we do buy here. Craftsman, made in China, Milwaukee, (I am a big fan), China, Mexico and Viet Nam, Festool, Germany until the guide rail factory opened in the US in 2017. No one is going to give up their Festool saw or sander or vacuum or God forbid, Domino. The made in USA only tools are high priced and the quality's seems to be better.
I am a semi-pro woodwoker. I do not have the budget for the luxury of USA only. I am as patriotic as anyone but money is the driver of my purchases. My shop is bigger than most. I have tools from big to small made just about everywhere in the world, based on my evaluation of cost to quality. I do support American companies and look here first and have plenty of Made In The USA stamped tools.
I have a 1025R John Deere tractor and a big part of my decision to buy it was Made In USA compared to the other 5 tractor brands I shopped. But its not. Most is here but the engine, Yanmar made is Japan. Do I cry foul? No, because JD did a cost to quality comparison as chose the best option.
How about licensing companies overseas, and allow the consumer decide if the quality to price is worth it. That way if a USA company does not get the sale, at least they get a value for their invention.
One thing for sure when living in a Market Economy, it's complicated. The thing is the Economy is the world now, and we have to live in that.
Well said. I have networking tools from Taiwan . They do the job cheaper. I can buy these tools or charge my customers more.
I remember when many of the small but high quality, North American tools started to be sold. It was great to purchase something that worked. So today I don't buy anything that is clearly a copy. I buy the real thing or not at all.
Thanks, Jon, for that thoughtful discussion!
I think the majority of US companies and tools are just plain too expensive. It has nothing to do with product development or production costs. It's purely about greed and inflation. I think it's great that there are knock-offs created in china and that the quality of those are almost on par. This means that we have a balance in the market that defines what the true value of the product is. Patents are all bullshit excuses for not trusting you'll be the best producer, best customer experience, at the best price. With some creativity you can have all 3. Overpriced Woodpeckers tools has nothing to do with their quality of place of manufacture. It is purely about that they have created a brand that people (apparently) want to pay for and that's fine. Some people want to buy a brand, others want to just buy the thing that gets the job done.
It’s hard to be the best price when you produce domestically. That’s the whole point of this video. Here in the USA we have laws in favor of the laborers. Unlike china and many other countries where the going pay rates are absolutely abysmal. Do you want to keep supporting those sad labor practices? Or support your neighbors and buy domestically sourced and produced products? Your call…
There's something funny about woodworkers complaining about intellectual property theft... Is every piece they produce truly unique, or was it "inspired by" another woodworker's brand and style, and they just swooped in to clean up off of their success? And don't get me started on how many woodworking logos are clones of each other...
@@JasonPeliwo thank you for getting the overarching message of the video. Seems a lot of people missed what I was trying to say
@@LincolnstwwI think we all generally understand your message. The problem is you chose Woodpecker. It isn’t a company that intends to offer “good value” to its customers. It sells prestige and luxury similar to luxury shoe and handbag brands.
@@keithc1335 I chose jessem , microjig and collins too. People choose to latch onto woodpeckers because they dont like them. Yet I made my point about made in the US while showcasing all of the companies.
They may be just a cheaper alternative. They are not fake if they are not trying to mislead by actually saying they are Rockler, Woodpecker etc. we are all trying to make a living. Some of us can do it by not needing sponsors or by slagging off other companies.
If it is fit for purpose , robust and accurate im buying the chinese made stuff every time over US made tools
people support theft in their pursuit of cheap... and do not think about when these cut rate thefts effect their own business income.
I was afraid this was gonna be another sponsored Temu video that everyone seems to be doing. Pleasantly surprised and this needs to be discussed. I will never buy copies, I'd rather save up and do the right thing there's no excuse. We don't NEED any of this stuff right this minute.
100% correct on the actual revenue being in the data captured.
I purchased a guitar kit. It was from the web site, but the tracking information indicated that it was actually Temu, or shipped using Temu.
Almost immediately after making this purchase, my email has been hit daily with multiple phishing attempts. Most of them have been "You have been selected" indicating some kind of reward program from a big retailer like Lowe's, but a few have been "warnings" about financial activity.
Thanks for bringing this up Jon, it's very hard to resist a bargain but as you say we're undercutting western companies who are forced to play by different, more expensive rules. I've stopped buying anything from Bangood won't buy anything from Temu.
Three choices, either the US manufacturer reduces unjustified high profit, don't buy it or everyone is rich, unlikely due to the current US system.
I didn't hear you mention how some manufacturers have their products made in China and then shipped to world markets with a healthy markup in price. Then when marketer has finished with their product they shutdown the manufacturing. But China keeps the design, opens manufacturing again and sells under a different name. An example was some of Honda's scooter lines. When Honda discontinued their line of scooters, China just kept on making them under a different name. Hence why the spare parts are completely interchangeable. China's copyright laws are not the same as they are in other countries and allow this to happen.
I appreciate how you speak truth to this very real issue that businesses face. Thank you for putting this out there!
What are your thoughts on Jonathan KM partnering with Hongui, a Banggood brand, for his tools?
The router plane is copying the Lee Valley Veritas base. Hurts me a little to see it.
I have no issues with any person or company outsourcing their own goods. I think I saw that router plane available for sale on banggood shortly after. No one in this comments section should take a stance to never buy anything from overseas, instead I hope people are open to the idea that when it's possible, supporting things made in your own country is a good thing but sadly there are a lot of factors at play against those companies.
i knew i liked you. now i am a HUGE FAN!!! this was amazing!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!
Thanks for sharing this report. Unless we stop buying these knockoffs, our manufacturing jobs will all go overseas. Both Republicans and democrats need to address issues like these.
The jobs are already overseas for even the main brands, these policies are backed by both Democrats and Republicans, and they can't exactly declare economic war on China.
Your comment is a few decades too late.
My personal choice is to boycott "companies" like Bangood and Temu. I also choose to learn from you and numerous others' experiences buying and reviewing the products from those operators. Thank You!!!
I have also wasted plenty of money on cheap, shitty tools throughout my life. NOT WORTH IT! I operate from the perspective of "buy the best you can afford, and don't be cheap about it". Something else thing I learned through my years in construction and being roofing contractor, "If you think it's expensive to hire a good roofer, try hiring a cheap one". Enough said.
Thanks again for another great share. Cheers!
The TEMU app is also TEMUing with malware. The company behind it was caught using a bunch of malware code that spied on the users far more than whatever the appstores actually allow and had to shut the app down. The same dev team then made TEMU.
Only on the android version, and it wasn’t malware so much as blatant cybersecurity oversight
Very honest and great guy! Love your Videos. Greetings from germany
Im across the pond in the UK and I don't think either of us are in a position to be talking about taking things that don't belong to us 🤷♂️
ok, ima adding my two cents worth on this topic: when companies have something made under license in china, many of them have to register in china and essentially then become a chinese company. so then all of their patents and intellectual property becomes property of the chinese govt. so then what happens is anyone is free to copy the item and sell it for whatever they can get on the open market. oftentimes the item sell for less than half of what the materials alone in the US would cost.
the chinese can do lots of things well but cooking steel and other metals is not one of them. while the tools you buy from temu or banggood or whoever else might be well made, you can never overcome the shitty metallurgy that went into the steel.
temu or banggood will never see one red cent out of me for the crap they peddle. it's time we stop bankrolling the ccp by buying their crappy wares. a good friend of mine was in china for a few months and was shocked at what he saw. what we get here in the west are factory seconds. the stuff that meets spec never leaves china
Yes, it is absolutely theft! It's why I won't order from them...
Who’s stealing from who? Why is it fine for a US company to sell it for 300% markup when they are getting it created for pennies in China anyways. If anything it just shows what a ridiculous markup US has on their products. Also if the US products were that much superior in quality, then people wouldn’t be buying it. But the fact they’re able to shows there isn’t much difference.
Is Harbor Freight stealing from snapon for making a $300 roll cart compare to snapons $2.2k one?
@@mawrkk Well it has to do with product development. If you create a innovative product that individuals like, and get copyrights. If someone starts making the same thing violating your copyrights you would sue it to stop. If it is done by another country that doesn't recognize your copyrights (it's extremely hard to get copyrights in different countries, China is especially hard). Well you then stop them from selling on different sites. When those sites are owned by foreign countries, you can't do anything. This hurts product brands, and developers. People don't know what goes into product development in time money resources. They may be reproduced even by the same factory that was hired by initial company, it still hurts the brand and more the development people involved...
@@mawrkk Regarding harbor freight to snapon the courts are deciding that, and it can go either way.
Great video, 1st time viewer. Might just take up your course. Regarding those clamping brackets. If you notice they are identical. Harbor Freight does the same thing. They are Seconds meaning that they didn't quite meet the design requirements. For me, I do go to Harbor Freight a lot. The Family Handyman magazine did an article once on Name Brand vs HF. This is what TFH said. They said if you use your tools a lot, go with name brand tools. If you're going to use them sparingly/not very much, go with HF & save some money. As far as Temu goes, I've heard that their things are pure crap. So no, I will not buy from them. Good video, I like these from time to time 👍👍👍
why would I pay more in the same product, and the US government take my tax money to support wars... I'll buy the Chinese one because I work hard for my money as simple as that...
I'll choose "made in China" over "made in the USA" anytime.
I'll choose the Made in China version because the people who made it worked longer, in worse conditions and for less pay than the ones who were responsible for the Made in USA version
@@G0F15H oh, yes, because Americans have such great working conditions, with 10 vacation days a year, the constant fear of being fired due to at-will laws, total lack of medical insurance and non-existant pensioning. And of course a minimum wage so low that many work 2 jobs.
May you get what you deserve
@@FierceSleepingDog cheap stuff, without giving any money to American corporations? Sounds good.
@nomen.nescio Clearly you don't get it. Your entire argument is the reason why these jobs are being outsourced overseas and imitation products can steal sales based simply on price. All that crap drives up the cost to make the good. Those are all first-world problems, and first world economies have moved on from Manufacturing to Service. You're not supposed to make a career out of working entry-level job(s). Minimum wage isn't intended to equal a living wage, at least not how most Americans decide to live (with their car, internet, cable TV, cell phones, etc.). You think factory workers in Asia and Central America don't have those same desires? Dude, most of them don't even get a choice as to where they have to work and they're laboring just be able to buy some food.
My initial comment was intended to be a joke because at the end of the day I really don't care where something is made. "Made in the USA" doesn't inherently make a product any better than something that's "made in anywhere-else-in-the-world." I buy the product that is the best value, plain and simple.
Excellent video and is so necessary to inform people!
Nicely done with excellent call outs to the issues. Thank you!
a lot of these tools were made in china independently already for sale on alibada, etc that some american company saw and ordered a bunch with their label to import and sell for twice as much.
A really good and thoughtful video. Thank you. Let us never grow tired of doing what is right.
really nice to see a temu comparison video that was honestly more about the underlying issues than the tools!
Nice video and always good to compare. Personally, I have both Bessey and Veiko clamps. The Bessey has nicer grip, while the Veiko has more strong holding - Bessey is sometimes too loose. Also have the Hongdui miter bar which I think is ok but I had expected more. But cannot compare to the "original" one. I can also recommend the Hongdui Clear Cut as alternative to the "original" Jess Em. It has outstanding quality. To sum up, in my opinion you can get excellent quality from "China products" if you do not reach out for the ones at 5% of the original cost, but if you are ready to spend 70-80% of the original price you will also get decent quality.
I am considering buying the course. I mainly make content with the tool sounds and no voice over. Will the course be a benefit to me because I don't do many voice overs?
I think almost all of it would. This course is less about “do this, this and this” Instead it’s about over arching concepts and understanding analytics etc
@@Lincolnstww Thank you!
As a new hobbyist woodworker on a budget I do admit that i have purchased items from them, I will say that any items I have purchased have not been things like clamps, pocket-hole jigs, etc that are normally quite pricey..... Except for the glue tray and brush, I fell for that one. I am a person that much like you does not agree with the stealing of intellectual property. Your thoughts were a big breath of fresh air
I haven’t done the research to check your research, but I appreciate this very thoughtful video. Thanks for making it. 🤔😃
Fantastic video my young friend. Keep up the good work Jon.
Thanks, Jon, for an eye-opening and thoughtful commentary. Makes me wonder about the long term costs of "bargains".
Solid video with a very informed statement of facts. Thank you!
This is a good thing. It evidences even more that the market system of economics is just not working anymore and we need a new economic system.
All great points, except for the square. There is nothing special about R&Ding those squares except for them always being square and that's not really something you can steal. You still need to develop your own manufacturing to ensure squareness. So the Chinese knockoffs are copying the look, sure, but the value is in the squareness not the image so if they are always just as square then great. You tend to trust the red because its always square. If the Chinese knockoff is always square too then, who cares about the color. This type of action (where the product is just as good) is only possible when your profit margins are insane, otherwise there's no room for the knockoff to fit in.
Remember, a square isn't a new and innovative product.
The idea of abuaing patents is systematic in China. Look at the Landwind x7, its a direct copy of a Range Rover sport and even a company that large cant protect their trademarks because i think they would have to sue them in the Chinese courts who would just rule against any foreign companies.
Great video! I appreciate your message. I try to have integrity in my purchases and only buy quality items from reputable sellers. I buy from the store when I can and order from the company when I need to. I try to avoid even shopping from Amazon anymore as much as I can help it. You may not be able to buy your integrity, but you sell it off a little more each and everytime you go with the lowest bidder support those who lie, cheat and steal. Or who are otherwise unethical.
Great video. Thank you for being honest and taking the not-so-popular stance here.
Great video and I appreciate the research you did for it (tax law etc).
Glad you enjoyed it!
Appreciate your attempt to get complexity of this reality out to a broader audience.
Yes, certainly unlike all the other videos on this topic Jon and something you should indeed be proud of. Rest assured it will get plenty of well considered views, and needed to be said. I recently bought the last/only model of New Balance running shoes still made in the USA. They cost literally twice as much as offshore production, but doing my part.
You forgot one important case - many of the products you see in places like Banggood, Temu, Aliexpress, etc. are not knockoffs. They are literally the same thing you see in a major brand hardware store sold as brand name products. Why? Because the big brand name vendor is not really manufacturing them for cost reasons anymore, they are only rebranding a generic item sourced in Asia and reselling them under their name - and with a hefty premium. Then you get exactly the same generic thing sold on Banggood under various names, only missing the big name brand logo.
In the best case you get at least the brand name quality control of the imported and rebranded goods - in the worst case they only slap their logo and 10x price sticker on it.
So this whole "theft" business is not so black and white as you seem to make it. It is not like Western manufacturers have a legal monopoly on profits - and the Asian ones on producing and selling junk.