I became a Christian while incarcerated and found Timothy brindle’s The Great Awakening album right when I got out in 2009! He’s been such a blessing to me.
I believe it would be biblically fruitful and effective if both Tim and Shai were willing to have a PUBLIC CONVERSATION and address their issues and concerns instead of a back and forth response without cross-examination in real time.
Thankful for you, Tim. I haven't heard the song yet, but if Shai really did buy into "White Fragility"...yikes. The main issue I had with his book: Shai never acknowledges that people are exploiting this issue to get false teaching from the likes of James Cone into genuine churches. His assumption is everyone in the debate is a true believer and likens it to Euodia and Syntyche in Philippians 4. He would never make a plea for "unity" with prosperity preachers, LDS, JWs, and the like. He knows these are distinct from Christianity. The same is true of liberation theology. If someone is trying to add Coneism to a church's teaching, opposing them is not a Euodia vs. Syntyche situation. It is a shepherds vs. wolves situation.
Liberation Theology is more than James Cone though. He has a very specific version of it. And what would make him, or other Liberation Theologians, non-believers?
I don't think "racial justice" negates the concept of "biblical justice." It can be understood as the application of biblical justice to eliminate racism and racial discrimination. Just like the Bible speaks clearly about how we should treat the poor. "Economic justice" would be biblical justice applied to eliminate policies that hurt the poor.
Hey Wassup Talib it's been awhile good bro. I definitely enjoyed this podcast ! And I'm saddened by the somewhat division with Tim B and Shi. I will definitely keep them in my prayers as I remember.
Black people are not the only victims of racism there have been many white people who have not done anything to black people that have been hated on by black people just for being white racism period is wrong people need Jesus so they can see that we are all created in GODS image
Appreciate Timothy Brindle's comments. But I think that there's a lot of miscommunication.We fell to empathize with each other. If social vs. biblical justice was a major concern, how would you describe Dietrich Bonhoeffer's actions? He stood up to Nazi Germany. Shai is definitely not a Marxist.
Or even a John Brown or a Lemuel Haynes. Even Douglas contrasted the Christianity of the land that practiced the wicked institution of slavery from the Christianity of Christ.
Bonhoeffer did not do so in the name of “social justice”. In his case it was biblical justice. Bonhoeffer was not dealing with ideologies that stated certain people groups are inherently racist and need to repent of sins that they have not committed and they they are not even able to see their wrongs because of “white privilege”. Instead of going off proven cases of injustice what we have today is perceived cases of injustice based inherently on skin color rather than objective moral standards. That kind of justice is not biblical justice. Comparing Bonhoeffer with Shia is comparing apples and oranges.
@@Tothehighwaysandbyways1. Social justice and CRT are two different things. Social justice by definition is "Social justice is a communal effort dedicated to creating and sustaining a fair and equal society in which each person and all groups are valued and affirmed. It encompasses efforts to end systemic violence and racism and all systems that devalue the dignity and humanity of any person." Which is exactly Bin Heifer was doing. And there was an ideology he was addressing, nationalism specifically Nazism that compromised German churches . 2. CRT is " Critical Race Theory is an intellectual and social movement that is both a framework of legal analysis and 👉a body of scholarship that examines the intersection of race, power, and law👈. CRT is far to complex to summarize in just a couple of sentences. They relate to one another but the topic of social justice predate the formulation of CRT which was formulated in the 60s and 70s to exam why the Civil Rights laws were being eroded and schools being re-segregated after the Civil Rights Act. There are cases is racial discrimination andI leave links in my comments under the post.
@tinamariejohnson7520 When I say miscommunication, I mean that we are not listening to each other. As Christians, we may disagree, but we major in the majors. You really don't need CRT to affirm that there's systemic injustice. The gospel needs to infiltrate our hearts to be able to empathize with each other.
When I first heard this song and realized brindle was talking to brother shai I almost teared up I can only imagine how Timothy feels I pray we don't lose another brother to the evil going on right now.
He didn't just direct this toward Shai. He called Curt Kennedy out in the song as well. Curt responded in a good way, very thought out. During one of his livecasts.
It upsets me to hear that you and shai are not seeing eye to eye at the present moment. I am definitly praying for both of you. I do have a couple questions. At the end of the song you use a voice clip of shai where he asks "where you goin?" and there is no answer from you. What's the point of using shai's voice in that manner? Why do you leave it with no answer? That to me, that's a diss. Like you are gone, you don't need to answer, he's not worth your response. But you say you love him? Why even include that at all in the song? You had already made your point. Blessings to you Timothy, the blessing you and shai have been is immeasurable to me. I hope for a response but even more I pray for reconciliation. Thanks.
💯🎯. Well articulated. My thoughts and questions too. Tim is especially wrong for airing out a private conversation. He didn’t do this in a loving way. I’m sorry, but I’ve lost respect for Tim.
@@richardessiaw1850Sooo I guess Shai was wrong for airing out he and Tim’s private conversations via his song “Elder Statesman.” Why the partiality? I guess Paul was wrong for calling out Peter as well? Tim followed Matthew 18 to the letter…what’s the problem? Was it okay for Shai to make a song about false teachers he clearly never met with alone or with a witness? Again, why the partiality?
I don't get the push back. Has Shai stopped preaching the Gospel and discipling unto Christ... 🤔? I happen to agree more with Timothy Brindle as far as these topics are concerned. With that being said, he doesn't seem to be addressing unity, as he initially said, but seems to be arguing (rac- ism). These are not black and white issues folks, even though they are black and white issues (see what I did there). Seriously though, why is it important to Tim that Shai believes that (rac- ism) led to George Floyd's (de- ath). If that's his opinion, who cares. In the end, it doesn't matter if you thought it was (rac- ism), (dr- ugs), or negligence... this man lost his life. I have brothers in Christ who I believe have a leaning towards the (wo- ke) mindset. I don't care, because it doesn't affect their theology. They are just as adamant about Christ as anyone else. They come from a different culture, so they have a different perspective on certain things. How arrogant is it for me to assume that my cultural perspective is always right. As long as their mindset (and mine), isn't antithetical to the Gospel, then we're good I'm glad around 14:20 he addresses other alternatives. I just wish he would've done that in the song instead of focusing it on Shai. In the end, I think all of this is a lot to do about nothing. I think in 5-10 years we will look back and see how silly all of this was.
I'm an ex-christian who was just looking for Brindle's song "Letter to my Friends" cause even though I went the opposite way I find it cathartic every once in a while. This is quite the rabbit hole I've fallen into. 😂😂
Seeing this broke my heart for so many reasons. EVERYONE has been impacted by the world and to think differently is illogical. The fall impacts all. This was so sad on many levels. The amount of assumptions, false equivocations and flat out errors in this piece was upsetting. 1- Just because Linne used similar points as CRT DOESN’T MEAN he is espousing CRT talking points. and even if it was (which I don’t believe it is), the question is, is it true?… 2- Could it be that Linne’s implied definition of woke is NOT exhaustive? Especially bc he didn’t CLEARLY define it. 3- just bc the world has a version of a thing doesn’t mean that thing is wrong…. Rather HOW the world does that thing could be wrong. (eg marriage, justice or freedom). 4- VB book was about CRT… yet there is NO clear Definition of CRT in this video just a bunch of generalizations and accusations made off of assumed connections. 5- I do NOT THIBK Linne should’ve dissed Tim in his song. That was uncharitable and flat out whack! I’m sure many will say this was brewing for years. But I don’t know why we can’t simply agree to disagree. This SEEMS nice nasty with scriptures to justify personal choice and attacks. Only God can fix it. So I will pray and plead for God to fix it! 😔😔😔🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Thank you brothers so much for doing this. I think this is one of the most loving approaches/responses to clear up any misunderstanding. As well as, to bring clarity to what seems like an “out of the blue” song! So many have assumptions that Tim never met or talked to Shai. Or they’re saying this should’ve been handled privately by Tim. But turns out this was a RESPONSE to Shai’s song…wow…that really helped to clear things up and bring biblical understanding. Thanks again brothers!
"My objective is to destroy capitalism and dethrone God." -Karl Marx Critical Race Theory is a derivative of Frankfurt School's "Critical Theory." Critical Theory (like CRT) is rooted and grounded in Marxism and intersectionality. Both of which bare a rabidly hostile sentiment towards Judeo Christianity. Shai has allowed his flesh and emotions (predicated on George Floyd's murder) to take him down a very slippery slope. I would hope and pray that he repents and fares a lot better than Phanatik of Cross Movement.
As much as I Love Shai I don't blame him for trying to speak up. like many of you say he should have just continued working on his lyrical theology series and not looked to the left nor to the right but kept his eyes on Christ as he always talks about in his past albums, However all this could have been avoided if he would have discipled his wife Blair on just gospel principle and kept her focus on scripture. the husband is supposed to lead, and disciple and nurture and cover but Blair somehow hearing his testimony (shai even says he was an Afrocentric pan-africanist before salvation) unequivocally influenced him while they were dating before marriage, not only that but he willingly made a choice to only speak co Labor and visit reformed churches that had probably issues with unity in the body whether white or black... You could point all of these reformed theology critical race issues back to Dr White here in Phoenix Arizona.. he tells the story of leaving a biking expedition in Red Rock Sedona and he gets back to the city and is at an intersection and a black kid trying to escape something he might have done illegally crosses an intersection almost gets hit by another car sees Dr White flips him off... That upset him and he went to his dividing line to talk about it and it opened up some old wounds that he didn't know people had secretly about him .. he then called Dr Voddie about it and the two counceled and ministered to each other behind closed doors... This was around 2013-2014 2and a half years before President Trump started in the primaries Hillary and Bernie were still prepping at the time... You can also Trace Shai's error back to the protests because many people in hip Hop wanted to know what he thought and before the protests happening he was considering retirement after the attributes of God because he was thinking about preaching and eventually accepted a role. That and his time under Dr Eric Mason at epiphany... Him Ambassador(during the year of his christology album) Cruz Cordero and everyday process all went to the same church ... Some of this is Dr Mason's fault because if you look at Epiphany now it's 100% woke not only that but there's also a book with the word woke on it from him as well.. you learn a bit of ethics from your pastor regarding scripture and Eric Mason wasn't really teaching how to steer clear from cultural issues outside of scripture he just went with the flow that's why Dr Mason talks the way he talks. In an "Uber" Urban context. I see things from a clear perspective that's why I'm writing this the way it's written I don't blame Timothy brindle for asking Voddie for help and I don't blame him for asking shai to reconsider cancel the book take it off bookshelves digitally and in print form and repent ... Let me preface this and this way and this is to shai's credit but also a warning to him... In hip Hop there's this thing about "selling out and backing off" the enemy used that to cross it over into Christian rap and Shai unknowingly to his lack of discernment got hit with it and he didnt know how to respond.
@@AngieGMarrone appreciate that. shai came to Phoenix Arizona just a year and a half or two after he married Blair and visited a church called Roosevelt community and wasn't the way he is now... He was writing the attributes of God and studying scripture to create his tracklist...
If racism exists (who could dare deny this??)… and its a flawed concept held by people… and people can hold power in society… do we not think that their flawed “beliefs” couldn’t or wouldn’t inform the policies they legislate in society? Not only that… because people know that certain “beliefs” are socially unacceptable (yet they still hold those “beliefs”), do we not think that those same people couldn’t or wouldn’t simply adopt surreptitious methods to implement those “beliefs”. Nah, im trippin’… sinners would never do such a thing.
After all… EVERY politician is a blood-bought, Holy Spirit filled, God fearing Christ follower…. Right? They wouldn’t enact policies that would allow preferential treatment of some and the disenfranchisement of others… right?
Battle of the intellects. I’m a CHH FAN from the beginning. Killing sin Album boss. But this is another bickering against each other. I think that’s the last song in killing sin album that the devil to fight each other.
What I find very sad is Voddie’s book was a response to a book that he never read or was willing to sit down with the person who wrote it. Let’s cut to the chase, sadly the American church is complicit in it role in sin of partiality, particularly when it comes to issues that effect Christians who are black. Unfortunately, Brindle benefits from the art form that was created in urban spaces by people of color but is unwilling to acknowledge the struggle from which it comes from.
Everyone is called to different focus though. Perhaps Shai knows first hand a religious prejudice that he sees in a political realm that is affecting his circumference.
I know I'm late, but I'm just gonna point out that the "Calvinistic abolitionists" he points out were the theological progressives of the day and the orthodox, inerrantist, theologically conservative Calvinists were pretty much unanimously pro slavery and did everything in their power to prevent slavery from being abolished. The latter group (Thornwell, Dabney, etc.) were the ones who called the Calvinistic abolitionists "communist" or "Jacobin" at the time, which was basically the contemporary version of the word "woke". So the anti woke use of historical "Calvinistic abolitionists" to support their point are using the people they would've opposed if they were alive back then to support their point. Theologically conservative Calvinists were near unanimously pro slavery and pro Jim Crow and called the Calvinists who opposed these things "liberal" or "Communist" for doing so, so I'm sorry but theologically conservative anti woke people have no business using theological liberals that their ideological and theological ancestors opposed and basically "called woke" to support their points.
Thank you Luke, but that is not necessarily the case. William Wilberforce was a Calvinistic Abolitionist who was not a liberal (same with John Newton, William Cowper, etc). And in the U.S., one of the oldest Reformed Presbyterian denominations was anti-slavery (The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, which exists to this day). Also, around the time of the Civil War, there was a split amongst conservative Calvinistic Presbyterians: many anti-slavery Reformed Presbyterian Churches in the north split with the mostly pro-slavery Presbyterian Church of the United States in the South. The latter became the Presbyterian Church of the Confederate States of America, which after the Civil War became the Presbyterian Church of the United States - PCUS. The anti-slavery Reformed Presbys became the PCUSA. They were Calvinistic, conservative, anti-slavery Christians, sir. Timothy's point is that these Christians had a Biblical understanding of justice - not because they were from the 'low end of society' - but because they had the Word of God and the Holy Spirit (i.e., "we have the mind of Christ" 1 Cor 2.16).
I commend brother Tim and brother Voddie for perceiving how destructive this CRT is in the church. I’ve also been encouraged by brother Shai’s music for many years. But having read his article “George Floyd and Me” I feel that it is obviously unhelpful to the Church. It paints white people as aggressors and hostile; claims that his white friends (presumably fellow believers) don’t actually care about him, rather that they want to check the “black friend box”; and it does not offer biblical wisdom to deal with these supposed issues. The gospel truth at the end is used to say that Christ bears with his affliction, which is true, but it omits truth as well. That we are one race under God, there are no “ethnic lines” (no Jew, no Greek) in the church, and that all sins of our fathers are reconciled through Christ. Truthfully it grieved me as well. It separated the white church from the black church. Which is unacceptable and unbiblical.
Try not to forget that every president placed his hand on the Bible and upheld slavery for centuries. Your position would have merit if the "Church" wasn't complicit in the African slave trade, genocide of the Natives and its overall callous approach to these issues
Hold up, Tim and a group of people got together and decided to "interpret" that those lyrics in Elder Statesmen applied to him, and tried to victimize himself by saying he felt being blindsided? This is not the same thing as what Tim did by calling him out by name and even sampling his voice. Tim and his friends chose to interpret those lyrics in that way. He should of just reached out then and there personally, but chose the low road.
Appreciate some of your thoughts here brothers. Also appreciate some of what shai has said on these issues. Though I believe we are in more agreement than we are in disagreement, I can't help but notice time and time again how it appears that conservative Christians are talking past one another on these issues. Though I think we agree on what the issue isn't (i.e. systemic racism) I don't think we have agreement on what the IS (beyond an overgeneralized statement of "sin"). Part of the problem in my opinion is that we are so often spending time declaring what is false that we don't spend enough time formulating a cogent, detailed, nuanced replacement of that falsehood. Yes, ultimately the replacement of sinful false ideology is the truth of the gospel. However, it seems that we are not being clear enough as to how the gospel sheds light on how we practically deal with ongoing issues of exploitation and greed and hate of neighbor. Much love brothers. Greetings from Canada.
@@tinamariejohnson7520 conservative values is a spectrum herein the US compared to other demographics. Conservative white Protestants in the early 1900s have had different political and social convictions than their Adrian American counterparts despite having various similarities. Even conservative value in terms of economy in places like Canada or the UK is different than America eg. Gun rights
@@simplyserge144But that doesn’t answer my question. What are these things/issues that are a spectrum? Also why did you mention Conservative White Protestants from the early 1900’s, as if there were no Conservative Black Protestants from the early 1900’s?
This issue is not deep at all, nor is it some huge issue within the church. If it was the timing of Shai’s Twitter post (that he was told to delete) about White evangelicals voting for Trump, articles for TGC, support of TG4 singling out white sisters to favor black sisters, and his overall political hubris wouldn’t have been right in cue with the world. Simply put race was the Trojan horse, and CRT purveyors took the bait. There’s absolutely nothing nuanced about sin, or why we sin. What it boils down to, man want to play God, and refuse to accept the simplicity of the Gospel because it destroys their wicked desire to be both victim and ethnic superior. The so called third way implies God’s creation of image barriers (White people) are flawed and irredeemable. To add nuance is to perpetuate and gaslight about known or unknown/unfounded sin. Not to mention with hyper focus and inadvertent indictment on White people making them a monolith of sin. While simultaneously making Blacks out to be victims and void of this same sin. Jeremiah 17:9-10 9The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately sick; who can understand it? 10 “I the Lord search the heart and test the mind,[b] to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”
@@tinamariejohnson7520I was shortly referencing a book called Doctrine of Race by Mary Beth Matthew's which details that both black conservatives Protestants, and white conservative Protestants have had similarities in terms of doctrine and convictions but differed on socio-political issues. That was the point of my reply. That's the spectrum I'm referring too. Black and white Christian's have often times not see eye to eye when it comes to the topic of justice and society for centuries.
So did you hear that song, Elder Statesman? Did you feel Shai called Tim out? I heard it. I didn’t totally agree with it. But I had zero notion it had anything to do with Tim. Tim called Shai out by NAME. That’s a whole different thing.
@@matthewharvey3556It shows Tim was being the most biblical/genius in the matter then. He went to Shai, he didn’t receive him, he took a witness Shai didn’t receive him, so he told it to the church. That’s Bible! Galatians 2:11-14 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.[a] 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
@@tinamariejohnson7520 you do know that black Christian's were and are the minorities in a lot of these reformed institutions. Even Christian hip hop wasn't all bay popular until brothers like Piper and Tim Keller started to platform brothers and sisters like Lecrae, shai, KB, and others... are you sure your applying the text appropriately?
Thank you brothers for so clearly and patiently laying this out. I pray that this will be used to bring unity and reconcile you dear brothers and bring Shai back to a gospel focus that we see Paul describing “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:27-28 ESV
@@darasia.selby1 the text doesn’t say we should strive for it to be a reality. This text says it is a reality. We are all one in Christ. We were baptized into Christ one with another. Certainly we should strive for peace and harmony with each other, but we are one. Christ has made us one. It is his work in covenant union with him. we should strive for harmony amongst us. But we are one ethnos in Christ. If you are a Christian, you are one… It says “there is neither Jew nor Greek slave nor free. We are all one.“ It is reality of our life in Christ. We just must recon ourselves one because we are.
@@richardm23 but we haven't done that reconciliation. If so, there would not still be division. To quote this, as Timothy did, to suggest that racial division doesn't exist, is disingenuous. How many mostly-white churches do we see led by black pastors? I've been in spaces with people who will say they believe the Bible but who don't feel comfortable with their children during out of their race. There is still work to do, and just quoting this doesn't negate that.
@@darasia.selby1 we ARE already reconciled! We don’t have to do the reconciliation. God has already done it. We are reconciled to God and to each other! he broke down the dividing wall hostility between Jew and Gentile as Paul so eloquently describes. We can’t reconcile ourselves to God or to each other. God does that! and we must just reckon ourselves as reconciled. We are already reconciled now act like it. And I’m not saying that people don’t do ugly things to each other. I am saying they should stop acting like they are not reconciled. We are ALREADY reconciled Now act like it! “Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,” Ephesians 2:11-19 ESV White and black, Jew and Greek, male and female, every creature who is reconciled to God through Jesus Christ is already reconciled to each other, and there is no dividing wall anymore. Let’s behave as if we believe that.
@@darasia.selby1 they are sinning and not living in the reality of their reconciliation With their brother. They must confess those sins, and reckon themselves reconciled to their brothers. Anyone who is racist or hates their brother who they are reconciled with is committing sin that must be confessed. Furthermore, many of the things that are labeled as racism today do not even approach any kind of racism that’s Timothy’s challenge to us is to not buy into this current CRT that tells us white people are inherently racist just by the fact of their skin color.
Go and listen to the song elder statesman.. he talks about feeling betrayed by Timothy brindle yet doesn't mention Timothy brindle.. it's very closely to the lines About Voddie Bauchem..... Shai has been through a lot and it's definitely changing him for the worst.. he called out reach Records because Lecrae went into the world and it rewarded him with the friendship of Kendrick Lamar... Shai Didn't like that and went to rapzilla and wrote a whole blog about it.. but way before that he wrote A blog dissing Kendrick Lamar entitled what Kendrick Lamar can learn from Christian hip-hop and scripture Ruslan was fairly new at the time and heard about the issue and went around asking about it and didn't say anything yet.when he found the time he learned about Shai's song random thoughts and recorded random thoughts 3 (in 2019 Shai Wrote the 2nd Song -more Random Thoughts)and rebuked Shai Linne.. what that did was take a lot away from Shai's impact on listeners because they now think of him as a fraud who's just out to Gatekeep.. Shai Linne heard the diss and just spoke about it on a song called random thoughts 4 and asked for Peace by clarified his positions.. Ruslan on the other hand garnered a lot of attention and says that a lot of Christian rap labels thanked him for protecting their image.. all of this made shai step away after the attributes of God was finished he transitioned into pastoral and preaching... with some guidance from 9 marks and other people that he had been influenced by from the theological pastoral world... He took a short break to start the lyrical theology Volume 1 ... He got a little bit of blowback from his song false teachers from people in Africa and the tropic countries as the word of faith movement has a lot of hold on those countries .. the son of Paula White responded to him.. and he didn't respond back. All that to say this... To his credit Shai Linne is very very bold. The underbelly of that is going off the cusp so easily doesn't end well for him... Now back to "elder statesman"... He's actually hurt by Timothy brindle and you can hear it in the song... He's also convicted
Timothy brindle's entire album is based off of Voddies book of the same exact title fault lines.... The only issue Timothy isn't revealing is that he loves politics and has moved the marker...
No. He hasn’t. It’s pretty clear Shai makes Elder Statesman and it’s topic a categorical critique of particular positions and not an expose of a particular individual. I find it troubling that a private discussion between brothers has become a diss track and a podcast episode. I find it interesting that Tim would demand to have any mention of his name appear in Shai’s book only to turn around and use Shai’s name and voice in a song. This will definitely bring streams, sales, platform invites, and ton of exposure moving forward. I hope reconciliation has an even greater viral appeal.
Timothy, You are greatly over simplifying the issue. Marxism, isn’t based on, or even addressing race, it’s addressing a social economic situation. CRT is addressing issues based upon race. These are two different issues you are bringing up, and I’m sure Shai would bring up this same distinction, too.
You are right, original Marxism refers to "economics". But the "concept" of "opressed" and "opressor" is what translates in to the CRT ideology. This is where the similarities and issues come into play. Classic Marxism labels "the rich" as opressors, just like CRT labes "whites" as opressors. Classic Marxism labels "the poor" as opressed, just like CRT labes "blacks" as opressed. The point made by both Timothy and Voddie Baucham is that people's issue isn't being "rich" or "white". Their issue is SIN. There are rich and white people who can be rightly be labeled as "opressors", but that is the result of their sinful nature and not their economic status or color of skin. For more on this you can watch the "Behind the Album" video on our channel. Grace and Peace.
@@WrathandGraceI’ve read and listened to what it stated in these videos. My issue is you are taking the label Marxists and applying it to CRT which is impossible as both issues are dealing with different issues. When you say “oppressor” each context from Marxism and CRL are meaning two different things. Yet, you are trying to converge the two as if they are the same thing-It’s a huge flaw. Then you are trying to impose a Marxists label on anyone who affirms or believes in CRL, that’s just incorrect from a technical and literary aspect of both ideas.
@@WrathandGrace James 2:6-"But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the 👉rich the ones who oppress you,👈 and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?" The bible uses similar language. We see both old testament and new testament that sinful, wealthy people oppress the poor.
I understand Tim's points, but there has to be a balance. Admittedly, I haven't read the book, but I'm guessing I would lean a little more toward shai's perspective. There is ethnically motivated injustice based on skin color, it exists. I hate to use the term racism since there is only ONE race. But we can't just ignore prejudices, and we don't have to subscribe to CRT or BLM (as an org) to recognize prejudices and inequality. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with saying All Lives Matter, because they do. Interesting convo, but I would have preferred to see shai and Tim discuss this together, perhaps they will in a podcast one day. 🙏
As a long time hip hop afficionado, I can say that shai and Tim have blessed me over the years with their music. I certainly believe the LORD has used their music greatly for His glory. However, this present topic is one that I believe Tim is sorely in error. As we know, since Genesis 3, sin has been in the world, and it will be until The 2nd Advent and the establishment of the New Heavens / New Earth. So, we can say ethnic injustice or partiality or racism will be in existence like all sin until then....inside and outside the church. Recorded history has proven the American church's complicity (and some argue the establishment of) with slavery, oppression, and segregation. Consider how the Southern Baptist Convention was started. Presbyterians and Methodists have admitted their complicity with slavery and have offered statements of public repentance for it. Of course, we had to have laws codified in America to end slavery, segregation, redlining, etc., but as we know these laws don't change sinful hearts. This is why it's sensible and very reasonable to say these types of injustices still exist, but in different forms and to lesser degrees of expression. The argument that to label and call out injustice as a Marxist or political theory when brothers and sisters have patiently labored to defend their point from Scriptures is simply unloving. Throughout the Scriptures, we see the LORD detesting the oppression of His image bearers and bringing judgment on those who persisted in it. He's holy, and just (Ps. 89:14), and the demand of the Law is to love Him and others, which Jesus reiterated in Matthew 22:37. The gospel, by nature, has a justice component as well as grace and mercy. But we also need to think about justice horizontally, not just vertically. And we must think of what justice means biblically. There's nuance that needs to be understood. There is a punitive form of justice in Scripture as well as a restorative one. A study of the theology of justice and what Jesus commands is sorely needed for this discussion. The implications of the gospel are vast, and to reduce particular concerns to mere political theories shows an undeveloped understanding of the faith. A few books to consider: 1. Christian Slavery by Katherine Gerbner 2. The Bible Told Them So: How Southern Evangelicals Fought to Preserve White Supremacy by J. Russell Hawkins 3. Generous Justice by Tim Keller
So you’d say the same about Shai song “Elder Statesman” as well, right? What about Shai’s racist Twitter post calling out White evangelicals after Trump won? What about Shai’s false racial narratives about George Floyd etc?
@@tinamariejohnson7520 I posted these links in the comment section. The Department of Justice have already conducted investigations proving that there has been racial discrimination and police malpractice from the Baltimore, Ferguson, and Minneapolis police department. You should read this, but it ads much context to what Shia and many of our black brothers and sisters have been talking about. -www.justice.gov/d9/bpd_findings_8-10-16.pdf -www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf -www.justice.gov/d9/2023-06/minneapolis_findings_report.pdf
Best way to hold someone accountable for their actions and words is to employ the primary source method (aka RECEIPTOLOGY). Tim dropping receipts like a CVS clerk!
I used to rock with TB… this is very troubling to me that he could be so blind, and then couch his willful blindness in Christ… this is shameful bro, smh
Timothy Brindle, you brother need to repent for causing disunity for this needles and wack track. Also, you call yourself as a friend to Shai yet you air out a private conversation-discussion. Also your sooo politically caught up you start falsely labeling everyone crt, Marxist when many of us don’t even agree with their conclusions.
@@richardessiaw1850To say Shai doesn’t push CRT is simply an attempt to gaslight. Did Shai cause disunity when he wrote “False Teachers?” Or “Elder Statesmen?” Or when he posted “Really White Evangelicals, Really?” after Trump won in 2016? Or when he lied in his article about George Floyd? Etc Etc Etc?
Then the best thing to do would be to apply Matthew 18, instead of writing this on a platform with all of us who do not know Shai personally. Go and correct your brother to his face
@@sandisiweeletuyengeni2344To be honest, Shai’s in so deep that he’s vested in this. He’s been fully indoctrinated, but at this point he’s not “just deceived” Shai is fully complicit to the division that his and those like him have caused following their mentor/leader of the pack Tim Keller. He’s rejected correction.
I became a Christian while incarcerated and found Timothy brindle’s The Great Awakening album right when I got out in 2009! He’s been such a blessing to me.
Same here
@@Daniel_9_verse_9 Praise God
Amen, I found the Restoration album not long after the Lord brought me out of deep bondage to sin. The album greatly ministered to me.
I believe it would be biblically fruitful and effective if both Tim and Shai were willing to have a PUBLIC CONVERSATION and address their issues and concerns instead of a back and forth response without cross-examination in real time.
Seems like that’s what they’re doing via these songs.
amen
I'm sure they had their private discussions first.
@@didactic318 But they didn’t, according to Shai. That’s the whole problem. He got blind-sided.
@@matthewharvey3556You're saying Tim lied in the song? Where does shai say that they didn't?
Brindle is good. The humility of Christ is my jam.
One of the best songs ever in my opinion
@@l.m.inc.5883no question
Same here. I love that song!
This whole situation is heartbreaking on both sides
Thankful for you, Tim. I haven't heard the song yet, but if Shai really did buy into "White Fragility"...yikes.
The main issue I had with his book: Shai never acknowledges that people are exploiting this issue to get false teaching from the likes of James Cone into genuine churches. His assumption is everyone in the debate is a true believer and likens it to Euodia and Syntyche in Philippians 4. He would never make a plea for "unity" with prosperity preachers, LDS, JWs, and the like. He knows these are distinct from Christianity. The same is true of liberation theology. If someone is trying to add Coneism to a church's teaching, opposing them is not a Euodia vs. Syntyche situation. It is a shepherds vs. wolves situation.
Liberation Theology is more than James Cone though. He has a very specific version of it. And what would make him, or other Liberation Theologians, non-believers?
I don't think "racial justice" negates the concept of "biblical justice." It can be understood as the application of biblical justice to eliminate racism and racial discrimination.
Just like the Bible speaks clearly about how we should treat the poor. "Economic justice" would be biblical justice applied to eliminate policies that hurt the poor.
amen
Thank you.
This Right here 💯
Hey Wassup Talib it's been awhile good bro. I definitely enjoyed this podcast ! And I'm saddened by the somewhat division with Tim B and Shi. I will definitely keep them in my prayers as I remember.
Black people are not the only victims of racism there have been many white people who have not done anything to black people that have been hated on by black people just for being white racism period is wrong people need Jesus so they can see that we are all created in GODS image
Appreciate Timothy Brindle's comments. But I think that there's a lot of miscommunication.We fell to empathize with each other. If social vs. biblical justice was a major concern, how would you describe Dietrich Bonhoeffer's actions? He stood up to Nazi Germany. Shai is definitely not a Marxist.
Or even a John Brown or a Lemuel Haynes. Even Douglas contrasted the Christianity of the land that practiced the wicked institution of slavery from the Christianity of Christ.
Miscommunication about what exactly?
Bonhoeffer did not do so in the name of “social justice”. In his case it was biblical justice. Bonhoeffer was not dealing with ideologies that stated certain people groups are inherently racist and need to repent of sins that they have not committed and they they are not even able to see their wrongs because of “white privilege”. Instead of going off proven cases of injustice what we have today is perceived cases of injustice based inherently on skin color rather than objective moral standards. That kind of justice is not biblical justice. Comparing Bonhoeffer with Shia is comparing apples and oranges.
@@Tothehighwaysandbyways1. Social justice and CRT are two different things. Social justice by definition is "Social justice is a communal effort dedicated to creating and sustaining a fair and equal society in which each person and all groups are valued and affirmed. It encompasses efforts to end systemic violence and racism and all systems that devalue the dignity and humanity of any person." Which is exactly Bin Heifer was doing. And there was an ideology he was addressing, nationalism specifically Nazism that compromised German churches .
2. CRT is " Critical Race Theory is an intellectual and social movement that is both a framework of legal analysis and 👉a body of scholarship that examines the intersection of race, power, and law👈. CRT is far to complex to summarize in just a couple of sentences. They relate to one another but the topic of social justice predate the formulation of CRT which was formulated in the 60s and 70s to exam why the Civil Rights laws were being eroded and schools being re-segregated after the Civil Rights Act. There are cases is racial discrimination andI leave links in my comments under the post.
@tinamariejohnson7520 When I say miscommunication, I mean that we are not listening to each other. As Christians, we may disagree, but we major in the majors. You really don't need CRT to affirm that there's systemic injustice. The gospel needs to infiltrate our hearts to be able to empathize with each other.
When I first heard this song and realized brindle was talking to brother shai I almost teared up I can only imagine how Timothy feels I pray we don't lose another brother to the evil going on right now.
He didn't just direct this toward Shai. He called Curt Kennedy out in the song as well. Curt responded in a good way, very thought out. During one of his livecasts.
I almost forgot who Kurt Kennedy was he was one of the ORIGINAL members of Christcentric in Maryland before he retired and moved on to ministry
@@bowsermario3563
He never retired. He just put out an album a few months ago.
@@janepatton8100 ow wow thanks.. that was my thought but thank you for clarifying
When is album available?
It upsets me to hear that you and shai are not seeing eye to eye at the present moment. I am definitly praying for both of you. I do have a couple questions. At the end of the song you use a voice clip of shai where he asks "where you goin?" and there is no answer from you. What's the point of using shai's voice in that manner? Why do you leave it with no answer? That to me, that's a diss. Like you are gone, you don't need to answer, he's not worth your response. But you say you love him? Why even include that at all in the song? You had already made your point. Blessings to you Timothy, the blessing you and shai have been is immeasurable to me. I hope for a response but even more I pray for reconciliation. Thanks.
💯🎯. Well articulated. My thoughts and questions too. Tim is especially wrong for airing out a private conversation. He didn’t do this in a loving way. I’m sorry, but I’ve lost respect for Tim.
@@richardessiaw1850Sooo I guess Shai was wrong for airing out he and Tim’s private conversations via his song “Elder Statesman.” Why the partiality?
I guess Paul was wrong for calling out Peter as well? Tim followed Matthew 18 to the letter…what’s the problem? Was it okay for Shai to make a song about false teachers he clearly never met with alone or with a witness? Again, why the partiality?
Grasping at straws…
I don't get the push back. Has Shai stopped preaching the Gospel and discipling unto Christ... 🤔?
I happen to agree more with Timothy Brindle as far as these topics are concerned. With that being said, he doesn't seem to be addressing unity, as he initially said, but seems to be arguing (rac- ism).
These are not black and white issues folks, even though they are black and white issues (see what I did there).
Seriously though, why is it important to Tim that Shai believes that (rac- ism) led to George Floyd's (de- ath). If that's his opinion, who cares. In the end, it doesn't matter if you thought it was (rac- ism), (dr- ugs), or negligence... this man lost his life.
I have brothers in Christ who I believe have a leaning towards the (wo- ke) mindset. I don't care, because it doesn't affect their theology. They are just as adamant about Christ as anyone else.
They come from a different culture, so they have a different perspective on certain things. How arrogant is it for me to assume that my cultural perspective is always right. As long as their mindset (and mine), isn't antithetical to the Gospel, then we're good
I'm glad around 14:20 he addresses other alternatives. I just wish he would've done that in the song instead of focusing it on Shai.
In the end, I think all of this is a lot to do about nothing. I think in 5-10 years we will look back and see how silly all of this was.
Amen
Agreed!
I'm an ex-christian who was just looking for Brindle's song "Letter to my Friends" cause even though I went the opposite way I find it cathartic every once in a while.
This is quite the rabbit hole I've fallen into. 😂😂
This is how hiphop should be its the message in the music and the music in the message
is the new album coming out on Lampmode ?
No! This is a Wrath and Grace album.
Seeing this broke my heart for so many reasons.
EVERYONE has been impacted by the world and to think differently is illogical. The fall impacts all. This was so sad on many levels. The amount of assumptions, false equivocations and flat out errors in this piece was upsetting.
1- Just because Linne used similar points as CRT DOESN’T MEAN he is espousing CRT talking points. and even if it was (which I don’t believe it is), the question is, is it true?…
2- Could it be that Linne’s implied definition of woke is NOT exhaustive? Especially bc he didn’t CLEARLY define it.
3- just bc the world has a version of a thing doesn’t mean that thing is wrong…. Rather HOW the world does that thing could be wrong. (eg marriage, justice or freedom).
4- VB book was about CRT… yet there is NO clear Definition of CRT in this video just a bunch of generalizations and accusations made off of assumed connections.
5- I do NOT THIBK Linne should’ve dissed Tim in his song. That was uncharitable and flat out whack!
I’m sure many will say this was brewing for years. But I don’t know why we can’t simply agree to disagree. This SEEMS nice nasty with scriptures to justify personal choice and attacks.
Only God can fix it. So I will pray and plead for God to fix it! 😔😔😔🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Thank you brothers so much for doing this. I think this is one of the most loving approaches/responses to clear up any misunderstanding. As well as, to bring clarity to what seems like an “out of the blue” song! So many have assumptions that Tim never met or talked to Shai. Or they’re saying this should’ve been handled privately by Tim. But turns out this was a RESPONSE to Shai’s song…wow…that really helped to clear things up and bring biblical understanding.
Thanks again brothers!
What about anything that shai said was inherently sinful?
Yup, that's what I'm wondering too. This was blown way out of proportion.
@@rodrigobarba930 amen
It wasn't. It just white fragility. Oh wait, we aren't allowed to say that.
"My objective is to destroy capitalism and dethrone God."
-Karl Marx
Critical Race Theory is a derivative of Frankfurt School's "Critical Theory." Critical Theory (like CRT) is rooted and grounded in Marxism and intersectionality. Both of which bare a rabidly hostile sentiment towards Judeo Christianity. Shai has allowed his flesh and emotions (predicated on George Floyd's murder) to take him down a very slippery slope. I would hope and pray that he repents and fares a lot better than Phanatik of Cross Movement.
@@ops4yeshuadaily569 When did Shai say he wanted to destroy capitalism, dethrone God, or promote CRT?
As much as I Love Shai I don't blame him for trying to speak up. like many of you say he should have just continued working on his lyrical theology series and not looked to the left nor to the right but kept his eyes on Christ as he always talks about in his past albums, However all this could have been avoided if he would have discipled his wife Blair on just gospel principle and kept her focus on scripture. the husband is supposed to lead, and disciple and nurture and cover but Blair somehow hearing his testimony (shai even says he was an Afrocentric pan-africanist before salvation) unequivocally influenced him while they were dating before marriage, not only that but he willingly made a choice to only speak co Labor and visit reformed churches that had probably issues with unity in the body whether white or black... You could point all of these reformed theology critical race issues back to Dr White here in Phoenix Arizona.. he tells the story of leaving a biking expedition in Red Rock Sedona and he gets back to the city and is at an intersection and a black kid trying to escape something he might have done illegally crosses an intersection almost gets hit by another car sees Dr White flips him off... That upset him and he went to his dividing line to talk about it and it opened up some old wounds that he didn't know people had secretly about him
.. he then called Dr Voddie about it and the two counceled and ministered to each other behind closed doors... This was around 2013-2014 2and a half years before President Trump started in the primaries Hillary and Bernie were still prepping at the time... You can also Trace Shai's error back to the protests because many people in hip Hop wanted to know what he thought and before the protests happening he was considering retirement after the attributes of God because he was thinking about preaching and eventually accepted a role. That and his time under Dr Eric Mason at epiphany... Him Ambassador(during the year of his christology album) Cruz Cordero and everyday process all went to the same church ... Some of this is Dr Mason's fault because if you look at Epiphany now it's 100% woke not only that but there's also a book with the word woke on it from him as well.. you learn a bit of ethics from your pastor regarding scripture and Eric Mason wasn't really teaching how to steer clear from cultural issues outside of scripture he just went with the flow that's why Dr Mason talks the way he talks. In an "Uber" Urban context.
I see things from a clear perspective that's why I'm writing this the way it's written I don't blame Timothy brindle for asking Voddie for help and I don't blame him for asking shai to reconsider cancel the book take it off bookshelves digitally and in print form and repent ... Let me preface this and this way and this is to shai's credit but also a warning to him... In hip Hop there's this thing about "selling out and backing off" the enemy used that to cross it over into Christian rap and Shai unknowingly to his lack of discernment got hit with it and he didnt know how to respond.
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Well said brother! Very accurate assessment!
@@AngieGMarrone appreciate that. shai came to Phoenix Arizona just a year and a half or two after he married Blair and visited a church called Roosevelt community and wasn't the way he is now... He was writing the attributes of God and studying scripture to create his tracklist...
If racism exists (who could dare deny this??)… and its a flawed concept held by people… and people can hold power in society… do we not think that their flawed “beliefs” couldn’t or wouldn’t inform the policies they legislate in society?
Not only that… because people know that certain “beliefs” are socially unacceptable (yet they still hold those “beliefs”), do we not think that those same people couldn’t or wouldn’t simply adopt surreptitious methods to implement those “beliefs”.
Nah, im trippin’… sinners would never do such a thing.
After all… EVERY politician is a blood-bought, Holy Spirit filled, God fearing Christ follower…. Right? They wouldn’t enact policies that would allow preferential treatment of some and the disenfranchisement of others… right?
@@brionmartin5693 nobody here denies "racism". What is denied is what Critical Race Theory says considers to be the origin of racism.
Battle of the intellects. I’m a CHH FAN from the beginning. Killing sin Album boss. But this is another bickering against each other. I think that’s the last song in killing sin album that the devil to fight each other.
What I find very sad is Voddie’s book was a response to a book that he never read or was willing to sit down with the person who wrote it. Let’s cut to the chase, sadly the American church is complicit in it role in sin of partiality, particularly when it comes to issues that effect Christians who are black. Unfortunately, Brindle benefits from the art form that was created in urban spaces by people of color but is unwilling to acknowledge the struggle from which it comes from.
35:51 bookmark
Great discussion. I hope Shai hears Tim.
Brother Brindle held it down for the truth. Thank you brothers for this conversation
Yes
Everyone is called to different focus though. Perhaps Shai knows first hand a religious prejudice that he sees in a political realm that is affecting his circumference.
It doesn’t matter, sin is sin and should be treated as such.
I agree. Politics is a nasty sinful work, and many times prejudice is it's riding buddy.
Shai spews religious prejudice!🤦♀️
Flag on the play, that’s a twisting of the Colossians passage
I know I'm late, but I'm just gonna point out that the "Calvinistic abolitionists" he points out were the theological progressives of the day and the orthodox, inerrantist, theologically conservative Calvinists were pretty much unanimously pro slavery and did everything in their power to prevent slavery from being abolished. The latter group (Thornwell, Dabney, etc.) were the ones who called the Calvinistic abolitionists "communist" or "Jacobin" at the time, which was basically the contemporary version of the word "woke". So the anti woke use of historical "Calvinistic abolitionists" to support their point are using the people they would've opposed if they were alive back then to support their point. Theologically conservative Calvinists were near unanimously pro slavery and pro Jim Crow and called the Calvinists who opposed these things "liberal" or "Communist" for doing so, so I'm sorry but theologically conservative anti woke people have no business using theological liberals that their ideological and theological ancestors opposed and basically "called woke" to support their points.
Thank you Luke, but that is not necessarily the case. William Wilberforce was a Calvinistic Abolitionist who was not a liberal (same with John Newton, William Cowper, etc). And in the U.S., one of the oldest Reformed Presbyterian denominations was anti-slavery (The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, which exists to this day).
Also, around the time of the Civil War, there was a split amongst conservative Calvinistic Presbyterians: many anti-slavery Reformed Presbyterian Churches in the north split with the mostly pro-slavery Presbyterian Church of the United States in the South. The latter became the Presbyterian Church of the Confederate States of America, which after the Civil War became the Presbyterian Church of the United States - PCUS. The anti-slavery Reformed Presbys became the PCUSA. They were Calvinistic, conservative, anti-slavery Christians, sir.
Timothy's point is that these Christians had a Biblical understanding of justice - not because they were from the 'low end of society' - but because they had the Word of God and the Holy Spirit (i.e., "we have the mind of Christ" 1 Cor 2.16).
I had no clue of the disagreement
I commend brother Tim and brother Voddie for perceiving how destructive this CRT is in the church. I’ve also been encouraged by brother Shai’s music for many years. But having read his article “George Floyd and Me” I feel that it is obviously unhelpful to the Church. It paints white people as aggressors and hostile; claims that his white friends (presumably fellow believers) don’t actually care about him, rather that they want to check the “black friend box”; and it does not offer biblical wisdom to deal with these supposed issues. The gospel truth at the end is used to say that Christ bears with his affliction, which is true, but it omits truth as well. That we are one race under God, there are no “ethnic lines” (no Jew, no Greek) in the church, and that all sins of our fathers are reconciled through Christ. Truthfully it grieved me as well. It separated the white church from the black church. Which is unacceptable and unbiblical.
Try not to forget that every president placed his hand on the Bible and upheld slavery for centuries.
Your position would have merit if the "Church" wasn't complicit in the African slave trade, genocide of the Natives and its overall callous approach to these issues
Hold up, Tim and a group of people got together and decided to "interpret" that those lyrics in Elder Statesmen applied to him, and tried to victimize himself by saying he felt being blindsided? This is not the same thing as what Tim did by calling him out by name and even sampling his voice. Tim and his friends chose to interpret those lyrics in that way. He should of just reached out then and there personally, but chose the low road.
This is making the assumption he didn't already reach out personally. In Tim's song, he makes reference to that.
They just have a public debate and sort it out
Stop
Appreciate some of your thoughts here brothers. Also appreciate some of what shai has said on these issues.
Though I believe we are in more agreement than we are in disagreement, I can't help but notice time and time again how it appears that conservative Christians are talking past one another on these issues. Though I think we agree on what the issue isn't (i.e. systemic racism) I don't think we have agreement on what the IS (beyond an overgeneralized statement of "sin").
Part of the problem in my opinion is that we are so often spending time declaring what is false that we don't spend enough time formulating a cogent, detailed, nuanced replacement of that falsehood. Yes, ultimately the replacement of sinful false ideology is the truth of the gospel. However, it seems that we are not being clear enough as to how the gospel sheds light on how we practically deal with ongoing issues of exploitation and greed and hate of neighbor.
Much love brothers. Greetings from Canada.
What is a “Conservative Christian” aren’t all Christians, Conservative?
@@tinamariejohnson7520 conservative values is a spectrum herein the US compared to other demographics. Conservative white Protestants in the early 1900s have had different political and social convictions than their Adrian American counterparts despite having various similarities. Even conservative value in terms of economy in places like Canada or the UK is different than America eg. Gun rights
@@simplyserge144But that doesn’t answer my question. What are these things/issues that are a spectrum? Also why did you mention Conservative White Protestants from the early 1900’s, as if there were no Conservative Black Protestants from the early 1900’s?
This issue is not deep at all, nor is it some huge issue within the church. If it was the timing of Shai’s Twitter post (that he was told to delete) about White evangelicals voting for Trump, articles for TGC, support of TG4 singling out white sisters to favor black sisters, and his overall political hubris wouldn’t have been right in cue with the world. Simply put race was the Trojan horse, and CRT purveyors took the bait.
There’s absolutely nothing nuanced about sin, or why we sin. What it boils down to, man want to play God, and refuse to accept the simplicity of the Gospel because it destroys their wicked desire to be both victim and ethnic superior. The so called third way implies God’s creation of image barriers (White people) are flawed and irredeemable.
To add nuance is to perpetuate and gaslight about known or unknown/unfounded sin. Not to mention with hyper focus and inadvertent indictment on White people making them a monolith of sin. While simultaneously making Blacks out to be victims and void of this same sin.
Jeremiah 17:9-10
9The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately sick; who can understand it?
10 “I the Lord search the heart and test the mind,[b] to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”
@@tinamariejohnson7520I was shortly referencing a book called Doctrine of Race by Mary Beth Matthew's which details that both black conservatives Protestants, and white conservative Protestants have had similarities in terms of doctrine and convictions but differed on socio-political issues. That was the point of my reply. That's the spectrum I'm referring too. Black and white Christian's have often times not see eye to eye when it comes to the topic of justice and society for centuries.
So Shai fired the first shot? Oh well! If so, Tim's response is fair game then!
So did you hear that song, Elder Statesman? Did you feel Shai called Tim out? I heard it. I didn’t totally agree with it. But I had zero notion it had anything to do with Tim.
Tim called Shai out by NAME. That’s a whole different thing.
@@matthewharvey3556 I haven't. Is it online?
@@matthewharvey3556It shows Tim was being the most biblical/genius in the matter then. He went to Shai, he didn’t receive him, he took a witness Shai didn’t receive him, so he told it to the church. That’s Bible!
Galatians 2:11-14
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.[a] 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
@@tinamariejohnson7520 you do know that black Christian's were and are the minorities in a lot of these reformed institutions. Even Christian hip hop wasn't all bay popular until brothers like Piper and Tim Keller started to platform brothers and sisters like Lecrae, shai, KB, and others... are you sure your applying the text appropriately?
@@matthewharvey3556 to me it sounded more of a broad statement.
Thank you brothers for so clearly and patiently laying this out. I pray that this will be used to bring unity and reconcile you dear brothers and bring Shai back to a gospel focus that we see Paul describing “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Galatians 3:27-28 ESV
What Galatians describes is what people should be striving for, but it's not a reality. There are people who claim to be Christian but are racist.
@@darasia.selby1 the text doesn’t say we should strive for it to be a reality. This text says it is a reality. We are all one in Christ. We were baptized into Christ one with another. Certainly we should strive for peace and harmony with each other, but we are one. Christ has made us one. It is his work in covenant union with him. we should strive for harmony amongst us. But we are one ethnos in Christ. If you are a Christian, you are one… It says “there is neither Jew nor Greek slave nor free. We are all one.“ It is reality of our life in Christ. We just must recon ourselves one because we are.
@@richardm23 but we haven't done that reconciliation. If so, there would not still be division. To quote this, as Timothy did, to suggest that racial division doesn't exist, is disingenuous. How many mostly-white churches do we see led by black pastors? I've been in spaces with people who will say they believe the Bible but who don't feel comfortable with their children during out of their race. There is still work to do, and just quoting this doesn't negate that.
@@darasia.selby1 we ARE already reconciled! We don’t have to do the reconciliation. God has already done it. We are reconciled to God and to each other! he broke down the dividing wall hostility between Jew and Gentile as Paul so eloquently describes. We can’t reconcile ourselves to God or to each other. God does that! and we must just reckon ourselves as reconciled. We are already reconciled now act like it. And I’m not saying that people don’t do ugly things to each other. I am saying they should stop acting like they are not reconciled. We are ALREADY reconciled Now act like it!
“Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,”
Ephesians 2:11-19 ESV
White and black, Jew and Greek, male and female, every creature who is reconciled to God through Jesus Christ is already reconciled to each other, and there is no dividing wall anymore. Let’s behave as if we believe that.
@@darasia.selby1 they are sinning and not living in the reality of their reconciliation With their brother. They must confess those sins, and reckon themselves reconciled to their brothers. Anyone who is racist or hates their brother who they are reconciled with is committing sin that must be confessed.
Furthermore, many of the things that are labeled as racism today do not even approach any kind of racism that’s Timothy’s challenge to us is to not buy into this current CRT that tells us white people are inherently racist just by the fact of their skin color.
This was excellent!
Has Shai confirmed his lyrics were about Brindle, or is this Brindle using a general lyric as a personal shot? 🤔
Go and listen to the song elder statesman.. he talks about feeling betrayed by Timothy brindle yet doesn't mention Timothy brindle.. it's very closely to the lines About Voddie Bauchem..... Shai has been through a lot and it's definitely changing him for the worst.. he called out reach Records because Lecrae went into the world and it rewarded him with the friendship of Kendrick Lamar... Shai Didn't like that and went to rapzilla and wrote a whole blog about it.. but way before that he wrote A blog dissing Kendrick Lamar entitled what Kendrick Lamar can learn from Christian hip-hop and scripture
Ruslan was fairly new at the time and heard about the issue and went around asking about it and didn't say anything yet.when he found the time he learned about Shai's song random thoughts and recorded random thoughts 3 (in 2019 Shai Wrote the 2nd Song -more Random Thoughts)and rebuked Shai Linne.. what that did was take a lot away from Shai's impact on listeners because they now think of him as a fraud who's just out to Gatekeep.. Shai Linne heard the diss and just spoke about it on a song called random thoughts 4 and asked for Peace by clarified his positions.. Ruslan on the other hand garnered a lot of attention and says that a lot of Christian rap labels thanked him for protecting their image.. all of this made shai step away after the attributes of God was finished he transitioned into pastoral and preaching... with some guidance from 9 marks and other people that he had been influenced by from the theological pastoral world... He took a short break to start the lyrical theology Volume 1 ... He got a little bit of blowback from his song false teachers from people in Africa and the tropic countries as the word of faith movement has a lot of hold on those countries .. the son of Paula White responded to him.. and he didn't respond back.
All that to say this... To his credit Shai Linne is very very bold. The underbelly of that is going off the cusp so easily doesn't end well for him... Now back to "elder statesman"... He's actually hurt by Timothy brindle and you can hear it in the song... He's also convicted
Timothy brindle's entire album is based off of Voddies book of the same exact title fault lines.... The only issue Timothy isn't revealing is that he loves politics and has moved the marker...
@bowsermario3563 agreed! How far Right has that marker moved is the question.
No. He hasn’t. It’s pretty clear Shai makes Elder Statesman and it’s topic a categorical critique of particular positions and not an expose of a particular individual.
I find it troubling that a private discussion between brothers has become a diss track and a podcast episode.
I find it interesting that Tim would demand to have any mention of his name appear in Shai’s book only to turn around and use Shai’s name and voice in a song.
This will definitely bring streams, sales, platform invites, and ton of exposure moving forward. I hope reconciliation has an even greater viral appeal.
@@derekpulliam2274 genius the lyric app would say otherwise
Is the album in CD format?
"not my feelings, intelligence or wisdom / that’s just a Christianized version of relativism" - shai linne, Means of Grace
Has Timothy EVER read the book The Problem of Slavery in Christian America?
Timothy,
You are greatly over simplifying the issue. Marxism, isn’t based on, or even addressing race, it’s addressing a social economic situation. CRT is addressing issues based upon race. These are two different issues you are bringing up, and I’m sure Shai would bring up this same distinction, too.
You are right, original Marxism refers to "economics". But the "concept" of "opressed" and "opressor" is what translates in to the CRT ideology. This is where the similarities and issues come into play. Classic Marxism labels "the rich" as opressors, just like CRT labes "whites" as opressors. Classic Marxism labels "the poor" as opressed, just like CRT labes "blacks" as opressed.
The point made by both Timothy and Voddie Baucham is that people's issue isn't being "rich" or "white". Their issue is SIN. There are rich and white people who can be rightly be labeled as "opressors", but that is the result of their sinful nature and not their economic status or color of skin. For more on this you can watch the "Behind the Album" video on our channel. Grace and Peace.
@@WrathandGraceI’ve read and listened to what it stated in these videos. My issue is you are taking the label Marxists and applying it to CRT which is impossible as both issues are dealing with different issues. When you say “oppressor” each context from Marxism and CRL are meaning two different things. Yet, you are trying to converge the two as if they are the same thing-It’s a huge flaw. Then you are trying to impose a Marxists label on anyone who affirms or believes in CRL, that’s just incorrect from a technical and literary aspect of both ideas.
@@marcogonzalez4615 Ok, you have missed the point. Thank you for commenting and sharing your opinion though!
@@WrathandGrace James 2:6-"But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the 👉rich the ones who oppress you,👈 and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?" The bible uses similar language. We see both old testament and new testament that sinful, wealthy people oppress the poor.
I understand Tim's points, but there has to be a balance. Admittedly, I haven't read the book, but I'm guessing I would lean a little more toward shai's perspective. There is ethnically motivated injustice based on skin color, it exists. I hate to use the term racism since there is only ONE race. But we can't just ignore prejudices, and we don't have to subscribe to CRT or BLM (as an org) to recognize prejudices and inequality. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with saying All Lives Matter, because they do. Interesting convo, but I would have preferred to see shai and Tim discuss this together, perhaps they will in a podcast one day. 🙏
amen
Your song is so encouraging and so was this conversation 🙏
Bond servant is my jam
As a long time hip hop afficionado, I can say that shai and Tim have blessed me over the years with their music. I certainly believe the LORD has used their music greatly for His glory.
However, this present topic is one that I believe Tim is sorely in error. As we know, since Genesis 3, sin has been in the world, and it will be until The 2nd Advent and the establishment of the New Heavens / New Earth. So, we can say ethnic injustice or partiality or racism will be in existence like all sin until then....inside and outside the church.
Recorded history has proven the American church's complicity (and some argue the establishment of) with slavery, oppression, and segregation. Consider how the Southern Baptist Convention was started. Presbyterians and Methodists have admitted their complicity with slavery and have offered statements of public repentance for it.
Of course, we had to have laws codified in America to end slavery, segregation, redlining, etc., but as we know these laws don't change sinful hearts. This is why it's sensible and very reasonable to say these types of injustices still exist, but in different forms and to lesser degrees of expression.
The argument that to label and call out injustice as a Marxist or political theory when brothers and sisters have patiently labored to defend their point from Scriptures is simply unloving. Throughout the Scriptures, we see the LORD detesting the oppression of His image bearers and bringing judgment on those who persisted in it. He's holy, and just (Ps. 89:14), and the demand of the Law is to love Him and others, which Jesus reiterated in Matthew 22:37.
The gospel, by nature, has a justice component as well as grace and mercy. But we also need to think about justice horizontally, not just vertically. And we must think of what justice means biblically. There's nuance that needs to be understood. There is a punitive form of justice in Scripture as well as a restorative one. A study of the theology of justice and what Jesus commands is sorely needed for this discussion.
The implications of the gospel are vast, and to reduce particular concerns to mere political theories shows an undeveloped understanding of the faith.
A few books to consider:
1. Christian Slavery by Katherine Gerbner
2. The Bible Told Them So: How Southern Evangelicals Fought to Preserve White Supremacy by J. Russell Hawkins
3. Generous Justice by Tim Keller
well said brother
The best reply
That most recent album is hot butt. Terrible. We waited for that Mr.Brindle?
The album blessed me bro. Idk what you mean
Ironic that a guy who got famous because of a song in which he calls out false teachers, is now himself a false teacher.
This is half hearted in my opinion
What would be whole hearted?
🤦🏽♂️😩
Fruitlessly quarrelsome.. Paul would son brindle for this
So you’d say the same about Shai song “Elder Statesman” as well, right? What about Shai’s racist Twitter post calling out White evangelicals after Trump won? What about Shai’s false racial narratives about George Floyd etc?
@@tinamariejohnson7520
I posted these links in the comment section. The Department of Justice have already conducted investigations proving that there has been racial discrimination and police malpractice from the Baltimore, Ferguson, and Minneapolis police department. You should read this, but it ads much context to what Shia and many of our black brothers and sisters have been talking about.
-www.justice.gov/d9/bpd_findings_8-10-16.pdf
-www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf
-www.justice.gov/d9/2023-06/minneapolis_findings_report.pdf
Best way to hold someone accountable for their actions and words is to employ the primary source method (aka RECEIPTOLOGY).
Tim dropping receipts like a CVS clerk!
I used to rock with TB… this is very troubling to me that he could be so blind, and then couch his willful blindness in Christ… this is shameful bro, smh
Timothy Brindle, you brother need to repent for causing disunity for this needles and wack track. Also, you call yourself as a friend to Shai yet you air out a private conversation-discussion.
Also your sooo politically caught up you start falsely labeling everyone crt, Marxist when many of us don’t even agree with their conclusions.
No it's the CRT crowd who is causing division.
@@Aglinasloarta
No it’s people like Tim Brindle falsely labeling people CRT when they don’t even agree with it. Stop it bro
@@richardessiaw1850To say Shai doesn’t push CRT is simply an attempt to gaslight.
Did Shai cause disunity when he wrote “False Teachers?” Or “Elder Statesmen?” Or when he posted “Really White Evangelicals, Really?” after Trump won in 2016? Or when he lied in his article about George Floyd? Etc Etc Etc?
@@richardessiaw1850 CRT or any of the ideology is straight from hell bro
@@AglinasloartaAMEN!
So sad to see Shai Linne go down this road…I know him personally…Satan schemes are real…
Then the best thing to do would be to apply Matthew 18, instead of writing this on a platform with all of us who do not know Shai personally. Go and correct your brother to his face
@@sandisiweeletuyengeni2344To be honest, Shai’s in so deep that he’s vested in this. He’s been fully indoctrinated, but at this point he’s not “just deceived” Shai is fully complicit to the division that his and those like him have caused following their mentor/leader of the pack Tim Keller. He’s rejected correction.
I know him personally too. I haven't seen him or spoken to him in quite awhile, but I doubt Shai is being carried by "Stance schemes."