@@mermilsin fact it wasn’t the reason why they defected to house Bolton. The reason being because Great Jon Umber is still held captive by the Freys and his uncle decided to side with the boltons even though they disliked them but it was to make sure great jon umber wouldn’t be executed. And in the books House umber is divided one siding with the boltons and the other pledging to Stannis but both sides just wanted the Starks back and not to have great jon umber executed. Plus almost every house in the North are really really loyal to the Starks and are planning to bring them back with house manderly planning to have Rickon Stark retake the north once Ser Davos smuggles him back to the North from Skagos.
It hurts even more knowing that Jaime meant his regards in a positive way, not knowing what will happen. It just gave Stoneheart yet another reason to hate Jaime 😞
@@eleventhhouseofzenith how would he be a dick by saying that? first of all, he did not know of the Tywin-Waldo plan, and second of all, he didn't even mean it seriously since he knew that Roose could never tell Robb that he helped Jaime
@@WolltazarIt was to be a dick, although he didn't know about the plan but the fact that Roose Bolton actually said it to Robb right before killing him was like Jamie's last fuck you to Robb since they were constantly trading insults to each other.
The scene in the books is so more intense. I remember the Catelyn POV as she noted the musicians were terrible. She thinks how most people would assume he just hired some really cheap musicians, but she felt he hired bad ones on purpose as a petty insult to the Starks. She eventually realises they are bad musicians because they are not musicians, they are soldiers.
The way the build-up to the massacre is written in that chapter is straight-up horror story-tier. One of the most unsettling, nerve-wrecking and oppressive feeling pieces of prose ever.
@@oso1165 He misused prose. Prose implies ordinary speech, be it following a rhythmic but realistic pattern or the ordinary speech of common folk in written format. He used it meaning a story in written form, which is not an actual definition of that word. But we understood what he meant, even if his word choice was foolish.
have you ever said "enormity of the situation"? If you look up what enormity means, you'll see everyone is using it incorrectly. However, we still understand what people are implying because language evolves, as do definitions. As such, prose has evolved to mean anything written with basic grammatical structure. And in your effort to sound smart with your "ummm ACTCHUYLY" comment, all you succeeded to do was come off like a pestiferous twat.
Funny thing is: Jaime Lannister actually DID send his regards. Roose Bolton was holding Harrenhal when Jaime and Brienne passed through. Jaime found out that Roose would be seeing Robb at the wedding of Edmure to Roslyn. They have this exchange: Roose: “You will give my warm regards to your father?” Jaime: “So long as you give mine to Robb Stark.” Roose: “That I shall.” So essentially, Roose decided to pass on Jaime’s regards right as he stabbed Robb, just because he’s an ice cold mf. But Catelyn thinks that Jaime is involved in the Red Wedding because of the timing (which is honestly a reasonable conclusion to draw).
Still took about eight fighting men, he stole a sword off one killing him and badly wounding two others! He really didn't go down easy, underrated character imo
In the end, Caitlin sees how everything is lost. She seems to lose her mind and rakes her own face hard with her nails. Blood trickles down her face and she feels it tickle her. She starts laughing to herself. And one of the Freys says she's lost her head and to kill her. In the end she thinks of all her children and Ned just before her neck is cut.
@@davidking6242 "Not my hair. Ned loves my hair" not loved... loves. Somehow that makes it even more tragic. That was the only time I cried while reading the first 3 books.
They were originally planning on taking her hostage, but once Catelyn started laughing to herself the Freys knew a half-mad hostage would be useless and made an end of it.
The original Red Wedding from the book is easily more unsettling, disturbing, horrifying, and more shocking than the version we got in the HBO adaptation. The extra details such as the drums playing and Catelyn Stark's inner thoughts during the massacre gave me goosebumps. The part where Catelyn claws her own face apart was beyond disturbing along with how insane she became after Robb Stark was stabbed through the heart by Roose Bolton's longsword.
They could have made a full episode out of the red wedding. Im honestly a bit baffled that they didnt do that, the showrunners are on record saying they were excited to adapt it from the very beginning. Would have been cool to see the soldiers camps outside the twins more. Would have been cool to see details like a few Freys getting into a drinking contest with the Greatjon before shit goes down. All the bickering of the Freys, all the petty insults before they start killing.
No I disagree..the show does it so much better. In the books Rob doesn't even have a point of view, he feel's more like a side character. And Catherine is the only main character and she lives in the books which in my opinion takes away how big of a moment it is in the show. Along with Rob watching a man stab his wife in the stomach with his unborn child, was just crazy to see.
When I read the Red Wedding it was actually so chaotic, and so shocking with Catelyn clawing at her face, that I thought it was a dream or hallucination. I put down the book for the night convinced, and got laughed at by a coworker about it 😅
@@mattiassvanberg8292 A little correction from myself: In the show, Catelyn killed Lord Walder's young wife In the books, Catelyn killed Lord Walder's grown up, simple-minded grandson
That Catelyn chapter will forever go down to the most horrific one I've ever read. I can still remember feeling numb, I couldn't believe what I was reading, it was heartbreaking. "No, not my hair..."
When her hair was grabbed and her head was yanked up right before her throat was slit, "Not my hair... Ned loves my hair" were her final thoughts.@@Moonlight69t
It’s really nice in the book, you also see a Piper man-at-arms that Arya and the hound find in the woods half-dead that says to them “we were drinking and singing, then the Bolton man took a mace to me, as if we weren’t sharing mead seconds before” (or some like that) it really makes you feel their betrayal and how messed up it was.
In the books the whole mood and vibe BEFORE the murders was a slow burn fever dream, even the food was unsettling. They had meat boiled in milk, sheep brain and other weird foods. It was hot and humid and the drum players were all out of sync. You could sense something bad was about to happen.
What is more, his betraying doesn't even make any logical sense. Even if you portrait him as a selfish asshole, the moment he would get Rickon Stark, he would immediately start to gather all northern lords to put Rickon back on the throne. Simply because Rickon is the only legitimate heir to Winterfell, and literally nobody likes Ramsey - the bastard with not a single right on a Winterfell, who is same time an insane sadistic bloodthirsty maniac, stable as a torn leaf during a storm. Why in the universe Umber would give such valuable asset as Rickon to that usurper maniac bastard, when Smalljon can lead the rebellion against him, put Rickon back on the throne and basically become the "saviour of the Starks" and regent near Rickon, thus rising to positions higher than anything possible under Ramsey's rule?
@@thedreamscripter4002yeah it's crazy dumb. Any living stark would instantly unite all of the northern lords. They only support bolton cause he claims to have arya stark as a hostage. The north is entirely held by a frey-bolton alliance. And nobody ever liked the boltons, nor the freys
@@thedreamscripter4002 He didnt even get anything in return. He swore fealty to Ramsay and then afterwards "btw heres Rickon as a gift" WTF. What are you doing Smalljon? Why are you???? What?
I also preferred Roose’s killing blow in the book. A sword through his back rather than a dagger in the heart. The image of Robb falling backwards into the sword as Rose Bolton learns forward to say in his ear (in his quiet, whispery book voice), “Jaime Lannister sends his regards.” was much more chilling to me.
@@kelanjames8429 the Lannister army is probably more loyal becuse of the money their current Lord paid them . The Dance Of Dragons is a perfect example , it was obvious that the Tullys and Arryns already won yet the Lannister army still fought them for their Lord
They had to get Greatjon Umber excessively drunk before they tried to restrain him. And still, it took like half a dozen men to successfully subdude him. 😂
and the professional alcoholic (merret frey) they got to try outdrink the greatjon ends up not being able to keep up with him despite being drunk himself 95% of the time to deal with his crippling headaches lmao
(From the third A Song of Ice and Fire book "A Storm of Swords") Tywin: The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine. Tyrion: Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he's suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection. Tywin: I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark's arms and won you another year of war. Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner.
One of the better hints is in Theon Greyjoy's dream after he captures Winterfell in A Clash of Kings. He dreams of a feast for King Robert turning into gruesome butchery, and panics when he sees Robb in the center of it all@@overkilled653
I like it better in the books but I think it really depends on what you've read/watched first. In the books you have a little hope all the time just to get it crushed in the end, also thinking Arya died but this effect is destroyed if you've watched the show first. The death of Robs wife and the brutality in the show on the other hand still works if you've read the books first.
they did it because they make her being from Essos she has nothing to do but in books it is better because Westerlings are sworn to Lannisters so there will be more drama when Raynald Westerling will tell them what happened on Red wedding
@@queenxx1690 and its still undecided if robbs child is still alive since robbs wife was forced to drink a anti pregnancy tea by her mother. Would be sick if the child did survive tho
@@lunaasonininongry6297 I know Rob's heir, Rickon ,Jon and Sansa we are getting Stark's war of succession Rob wrote last will Jon should be heir if he have no natural heir,Ricon is chosen by Manderlis becsuse they don't know that Bran is alive ,Vale and Littlfinger want Sansa,
all the dire wolves died in such lame ways… Lady executed over what Nymeria did, Grey Wind shot while in a kennel, Shaggydog killed off screen, Summer jumping into a group of white walkers (seriously wtf)… Ghost was the only one who the show seemed to care about.
@@nym_r0ddthey're killing the other direwolves to save budget I guess... that's why we rarely seen the direwolves on screen cuz apparently, animating their fur was expensive or something... a shame really. I wonder if they are other options to still make the direwolves appear.
@@Vinva1The dragons took the budget away from the direwolves. There should have been a balance. The dragons grew too quickly and were in too many consecutive episodes.
I think the fact that Robb had a bigger role and more focus in the show made the red wedding more impactful but the other characters and details in the books made it more interesting and refined. I feel like a combination of the two would make it the most compelling.
Actually, some were Boltons that came in, I believe. Cat sees Northmen in shaggy fur cloaks come in and has hope for a second, before one of them decapitates the Smalljon. But one of the most heart wrenching moments is when Ryman Frey buries his axe in Dacey Mormont's stomach. I'll never forget reading this chapter for the first time.
"you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" in the books smalljon died protecting his king, in the show he became a villain
The part I found most disturbing in the book was that they beheaded Robb and his direwolf and then paraded his body around with the wolf’s head attached to where his head would have been. The idea that people could be that malicious and so senseless and needless in their cruelty really hit hard.
Forgot the best part : Roose Bolton entry in his full plate pink armor ressembling a peeled man, sword at hand, slashing with walder the black at his side.
One thing was better, Cat holding that dagger at Walder's wife's throat instead of the son was better. Obviously he'd let some half brain fool die, but his wife? That’s cruel even by the medieval standards
For those who only watched the show (I’m not one of them, I’m reading the books and am past this point) then there would be great uncertainty as to whether Catelyn freeing Jaime led to her and Robb’s deaths, because although Jaime does say give my regards, there’s no reason to believe he knew about the Freys’ upcoming betrayal on behalf of Tywin……UNLESS people want to say/believe he was implying Roose should betray the Starks on his own. In the books/reality, Jaime being freed did not affect or impact the massacre at the Twins; Tywin just knew they’d be there and was savvy enough to reach out to Walder Frey and promise him safety to act out “vengeance” which benefitted the Lannisters far more than Lord Walder’s simple fury at Robb’s marriage to someone else
The show doesn't give the northmen enough credit. They've only been fighting nature and wildlings since birth. Jon leading them into Kings Landing to butcher the Lannisters was awesome
The show doesn't give credit to anyone. Especially not to Stannis's faction, Dorne, and the Iron Islands, who are all losers in the TV version. And yes, even the Freys don't get enough credit in the show, since in the books are at least powerful and more respected.
@@gooby214 and Aegon Targaryen isnt even in the show! one of my favoreite characters, and an extremely important piece in the game of thrones. he actually would have the best claim to it as well
I don't think anyone wanted to see her as anymore in the show. No one wants their zombie mother following them around and honestly Catelyn was just an annoying fool in the show. Stuff that was too "momish" like telling Stannis and Renly "if I was your mother I'd knock your heads together...blah blah blah." Plus her foolishness like not getting that the dagger was a plant or releasing Jamie just made her too stupid to keep around. Getting rid of her in the show is the only good divergence from the books I can think of.
She might have been annoying in the show but the lady stoneheart from the books was so vividly told that I could picture her creepy glare through the words. Cutting her out was a crime, even if cat had a shit actor (personally I liked her) That, and the fact that there was another targareyn (and no, not jon). Of whom actually invaded long before daenerys did, with the Golden Company. "Young Griff" (who is actually aegon targareyn) missing from the show was probably the worst, especially because Tyrion met him in the books.
Even worse lady Mormont was here and died protecting Robb she was killed with an axe to the stomach which is why in the show Lyanna says her mother died fighting for Robb
@@dylanmccool22Lady Mormont at that time was Maege who was at the wedding but it never said what happened to her as she was with Edmure during the betrayal and not Caitlyn. The Lady Mormont that died was Dacey. Edwyn Frey refusing to dance with Dacey was one of the final hints about the Frey’s plan.
@@dylanmccool22 Dacey was Lyanna's older sister. There are like 5 Mormont daughters. Mage Mormont (the lady of House Mormont and Lyanna's mother) went with Galbett Glover to the Neck to meet up with Howland Reed.
Yeah, the fact that Dacey Mormont in particular takes down the guys grabbing at her, makes it to the door, only to get run through before she can get outside. And god, the ending of the Red Wedding in the books. Catelyn cuts Jinglebell so deep she hits bone, starts laughing and clawing at her face, and her last thought before having her own throat cut so deep she can’t speak as Lady Stoneheart is “don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair”. Fucking brutal. Looking back, the show’s version was the early warning sign of the fact D&D cared more about shock value and short-term talking points than they were about actually writing anything compelling.
Even earlier signs were when they removed “the Rhoynar” from the title of the monarch and changing characters’ names/making composite characters/removing them entirely so “the audience wouldn’t be confused”. I’ll always love HotD for reinstating the former and mitigating the latter.
The scene is amazing in the books. But let’s not act like the one in the show was bad. It’s one of the most famous scenes in television history. Books will always be better because there’s no limitations. D&D were bad at the end. But their Red Wedding wasn’t a warning sign at all. It’s one of their few highlights.
@@TheProdigy_916 yeah, I probably should have clarified - I agree that the scene itself, in isolation, is fucking amazing. My saying it’s a ‘warning sign’ is based on how their dumbing down of Robb’s marriage fundamentally changes his narrative arc. Show Robb marries for love, then he and his wife get stabbed at a wedding because he’s an oathbreaker. And I can see why D&D went that way, because “the woman Robb loves so much he threw away an alliance to marry her, who’s also pregnant, just got stabbed in the baby-maker” is horrifying, genuinely. I remember the first time I watched it I literally went cold all over, that shit is hard to watch. But. Robb in the books didn’t marry for love. He married for honour, duty, and because the Westerlings are scheming bastards who used their daughter as a pawn. He married her because the last thing Cat said to him before he went off to battle was reaffirming the fact that bastards get treated like shit, and growing up watching Jon’s treatment meant he couldn’t bear to even possibly have a bastard child. Robb’s marriage in the books is the result of so many different factors, and it means he dies the same way as his father - because of a sense of rigid honour. The events leading into the book version are more complex, and the events resulting from it (Lady Stoneheart and the Freys possibly being cursed for breaking guestright, and definitely being despised by the rest of the Riverlands) are also largely ignored in the show. So yeah, the scene itself? Outstanding, that and Cersei blowing up the sept are probably my favourite moments in the series. But when you really look into it, with the benefit of hindsight, that’s where you can see the edges start to fray. They didn’t want to do the full set-up (whether because they prioritised the shock value of Talisa, or they thought Robb would be less relatable if he married for anything other than love), they didn’t pick up the full complement of plot threads afterwards, all to streamline the story. And while it’s somewhat understandable, it is what led to the final few seasons feeling like “Game of Thrones Abridged”.
I mean I do like how in the show the Bolton's and Lannisters were more strategic with it like they got a lot of the northerners drunk and unable to fight so it would be a lot easier. Not to mention the walder Frey's comeback to Caitlyn when she's about to kill his wife is so cold id never change that lol
I'm gonna play the Reigns of Castamere (Instrumental) at my brothers wedding. Just gonna wait until everything gets quiet for a second, then have it start playing over the loud speakers.
no, the series is more compact and does not get lost in 1000 different plots that it cannot conclude as is the case in books which will never have an end since grrm created something much too complicated
The show version left me in shock. If they had portrayed Rob’s loyal banner men all giving their lives desperately trying to save the king they truly loved, I would have been left in tears.
no, the series is more compact and does not get lost in 1000 different plots that it cannot conclude as is the case in books which will never have an end since grrm created something much too complicated
"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son." Tywin to Tyrion. He was wrong about Jeyne, but right about Robb. Tywin's words showed his brilliance in playing the game of thrones, and hammers home that Robb was truely his father's heir.
@@rfabsulousVerdade! Mas jeyne se aproveitou do luto de Robb ao dormir com ele, ela fez tudo para casar com um homem que estava acima da posição social dela.
"Jaime Lannister sends his regards" is so much more of a middle finger to both Robb and Jaime then "the Lannisters send their regards" ... just one of the many, many changes that ruined the show, even if it was such a small detail. Roose' reasons for saying it were as much a dig at Jaime as it was at Robb and serves to show how cruel and petty he was.
The book version was “better” for the book version. The screen version was much better for the screen version. The fact alone that we don’t only lose Robb but the only couple that seems to have found actual happiness in this dreamcrushing world, made it much more shocking and painful.
Wrong. You think being the overlord makes a house entitled to insult their bannermen and not respect their promises and duties toward them? Absolutely wrong and incorrect. Even the royal house has to RESPECT its vows and duties to the bannermen. Walder didn't owe any loyalty after he was betrayed by Robb. He just went the wrong way about his revenge. With your mentality, you would've ended up the same as the Mad King, Joffrey, and Robb. Foolish, entitled, and naive. The bannermen don't owe allegiance to lords blindly. Even worse when the Starks were supported as kings by the TULLYS, the true lieges of the Freys. No dude, when overlords insult their vassals and break their oaths and duties toward them, the vassals have the right to repay them by no longer following them. It happened with Lyonel Baratheon when he was slighted by the Targaryens after a prince married another woman instead of the promised Baratheon bride. Lyonel rebelled against the Iron Throne. After he submitted, the Targaryens apologized and made new arrangements to make amends.
@@gooby214Robb's mistake was trying to solve things the quickest he could, the moment Lord Frey refused to let Robb's army cross the twins, he should proclaim the Freys traitors and hold siege against them, the war could take a month or 2 longer, but eventually he would've get passed 'em, he had already proven to be better than Tywin in open field battle, even with preparation the nothern lords were just better than the Lannisters in the field, but impacience along with sheer arrogance of not having lost a single battle made Robb lose, he got cocky and presumed anyone would help him, naive.
@@gooby214 I think the point is that he had no right to demand that a KING gets married to one of his daughters to allow him pass through the gates while he is a bannerman of the Tully, who are vasals to said king. It's as if the Tarly, who are bannermen of the Tyrell, said to Daenerys that she needs to marry one of them if she wants them to be her vassals. Of course, leverage is a thing and these 2 situations have nothing to do with one another contextually (the Frey were holding a strategic linchpin that the Stark needed while the Tarly were already subdued), but the point is that Walder Frey was punching way above his weight class in his demands from the get go.
Walder frey swore fealty to robert baratheon too and he probably doesn't know joffrey is a bastard. Ultimately robb brought the red wedding on himself. Walder frey had repeatedly been insulted by every great house, including a 10 year old tywin lannister and his own liege lord, and then finally when he gets respect and prestige from a great house by them offering to make any one of his daughters a queen hes overjoyed. He even lets robb choose, and doesn't demand it happen immediately. He sends 5000 soldiers to help robb led by his sons and grandsons, many of whom die fighting for robb. And what does robb do? He sends the biggest "fuck you" possible, by marrying a woman whose house is poor and can raise 50 men. Even robb knew the severity of what he did which is why he gave cat a pass for freeing jaime.
@vanitas.... robb couldn't lay siege to the twins. The twins are two castles on two sides of the river with a bridge between. If you besiege one side, you have to also besiege the other, but you would have to have an army on the other side which robb did not have. Tywin would have just marched his whole army to the twins, jaime would have done the same after capturing riverrun and then together with the freys they'd have demolished the northerners.
I remember listening/reading (audible) this chapter while working as an overnight custodian. I was uncomfortable the rest of the night. FANTASTIC book 🔥
Dude. So naive to think the bs you saw in the show will ever happen in the books. Stop thinking the trash plotlines you saw in the show will happen in the books. Arya revenge nonsense will NEVER happen in the books. Ever. That was TV fanservice. Arya's storyline will never bring her to the Twins. The silly Tv show stole the pie thing from Wyman Manderly, who is the one who has 3 Freys baked into pies. Also, Jaime already instructed the Freys to deliver the Red Wedding captives to Tommen in King's Landing, so they are leaving the Twins already.
@@ayushigupta8776 Its Catelyn who is brought back by Beric (whos way cooler in the books). But she's sort of...decomposed. So the Brotherhood listens to her and basically takes out Freys and Lannisters.
They Ruined house umber in the show and especially smalljon. He was a unquestionably loyal hero and died trying to protect his king. He and Dacey Mormont(who's not even in the show) fought to the last moment.
Nah, the show's depiction was much better. The fact it was so sudden and unexpected that it even completely caught off-guard the Starks to the point they didn't have to time to put up any defense was what made it into such an iconic moment. Book fans always think everything in the books is better lol
Tbh i cant say one is better, i loved the show one cause within 5 minute it felt like the world is over. The book tho there is more hope. Robs wife has a child, Catylen wants revenge, and ofc the fighting is not purely one sided…. And greywind :/
Them dying instantly makes more sense, bcoz they were at a feast, completely unaware, with one Frey behind each of them to slaughter them before they can realise whats gonna happen, not to mention the archers, they weren't even dressed for a battle, so no protectives either, one arrow, one blow, and its gone
The reason why Northern Lords is so much better in the books. Their loyalty is so strong. While in the shows, most houses ready to betray the Starks, even the Umber betrayed Rickon Stark for no reason.
Imagine if Lady Stoneheart used dark magic to bring Robb back to life, but Grey Wind's head is still attached to his body and he becomes a blood thirsty killer.
Talking about the Smalljon's attempt to fight back while not talking about the Greatjon's. A Frey was specifically told to drink a lot with the Greatjon to get him too drunk to resist. But when shit hit the fan. The Greatjon was still able to kill several men before finally being captured and imprisoned.
In the books this was telegraphed from waaaay before as well. You could witness through Arya's chapters that Tywin was constantly exchanging letters and in some cases straight up reciving visiters from Freys and Boltons.
yea dude imagine a targarian girl came from nothing collected all that army helped alot saved the 7 kingdoms from the deads and helped the man who killed her !! she was perfect before the 2 smartasses decided to make her so evil in the last 2 eps worst ending ever
@@Kata-oy4gl agreed. she lost herself in 2 episodes...which if they were going todo that they needed a whole season to see her spin out of control. losing everyone she loved ok so imma go burn the whole city down now
@@tristannaylor5197 exactly dude !! we all love jon right but that was soo bad to make him kill her ! as u said if u wanna ruin the ending make another season and make her go evil then okay let jon kill her !! but we felt bad for both at the end due to bad writing
I think I actually prefer it being a surprise, if it was just an all out duel it would’ve felt like a lot of other scenes already in game of thrones. It being a shock and watching everyone get murdered with no clue is what made it so heart wrenching in my opinion
The only thing I disagree on is that the line, "The Lannisters send their regards", is far better than just saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards".
I wish it was Greatjon who threw the table. Going from refusing to march with him to throwing a table over him to protect his king over himself would've been an amazing arc
Actually the sad part of the red Wedding is a bit underwhelming in the book, lasting only about 4 pages or so. I get it's realistic since it happened very fast, but it doesn't even give yiu the time to process the events. This and Oberyn's death were actually more impactful in the show, if not strictly better.
I did think it was weird The Starks were so unprepared for what happened in the show. The Frays and The Boltons pride themselves on being known as the villains. No one on Robb's side should have let their guard down like that
@@someguy8273come on, that shock when everything starts to go down and you don't have any time to process... I think the fact that the northmen themselves couldn't understand what was happening is great because the viewer identifies with them, so it hurts so much more when everyone starts dying. as opposed to if they had started fighting immediately, and the viewer would feel as if they're watching from the sidelines (which is still shocking but it doesn't have that emotional element).
Removing Lady Stoneheart was a mistake. Cat died thinking all of her children were dead or lost to her. I am hoping she comes out of her madness when she learns otherwise.
I think cinematically, the scene hits harder when they’re all slaughtered with little resistance. It plays up the “these were people that were trusted” angle
The red wedding on the TV show was way better than the book. Rob, his wife and mother thought there cause was Righteous and Noble and the characters along with the fans started drinking the coolaid that Rob was not just the King of the north, but the true king of westeros and they got caught slipping in the most brutally violent way possible. It set the tone for the entire serious. The fans could love other characters and hope they would succeed but in the back of their minds they knew it could all end at any moment.
Humbly disagree. Robb in the book fucked up with the marriage but it was for "honor", because he slept with her and felt guilty. Show Robb was just horny. Made it sillier.
Honestly the best part of the red wedding in the books vs. the show is how clearly it's foreshadowed rather than just being shock value. In the books you know something terrible is coming for Robb and the only reason it might take you by surprise is because you don't want to believe it.
I agree that if we follow everything and not missing out important details in the book at the first place, this scene would work better when it comprehensive. But since the movie had cut off so many character lines and stories, it is just reasonable to reduce the tension of Robb’s side and focus more on the terriying cold blood suprise twist. Also Lady stoneheart is not intended to put on the show, so exclude the jaimee part dialogue was maybe a good choice, at least in my opinion. Doesn’t mean i said the movie is better than the book anyway, just only this scene i dont think it is necessary to add more complex
I love Jaime's scenes with Jeyne (Robb's book wife) and with her mother in A Feast for Crows. When they make small changes like this, sometimes they work in the moment but ruin future scenes that are fantastic.
I have to disagree. I thought the book was underwhelming after seeing the show Although I can appreciate how they kept the music playing throughout the entire event as well as playing it from The Two Towers afterwards
That's what most movies miss out on in my opinion. They focus only on the main characters and use simple soldiers or non main characters as cannon fooder. This often leads to scenes, not for the red wedding, because the setting is different, but normal battle scenes where you only see one side getting slaughtered seemingly without any skills. I think it would always hit harder if you let them die doing stuff they were trained for. Shield Rob with a table and their lives or simply through commands like "protect your king!" They will still fail but I think it would be better. Same goes for the antagonist side. A bit like in the last samurai during the night attack on the village.
On one hand i prefer the shows’ version. It shows how sudden and unexpected it happened and how no one saw it coming or could do anything about it. On the other hand i can imagine how the books’ version is much more epic to read, but might not translate as well on tv
Like many things adapted from books to the screen, particularly the TV screen, the Red Wedding was drastically reduced in scale. Thousands of north men died there, it was a massacre, where as in the show its not even 50 of them that die
There were also several taken hostage, as a means of trying to secure the good behaviour of the lords who weren't there- like Lord Manderley- it wasn't just Edmure that was held. In the show, it just looked like they killed *everyone* present (including people that _shouldn't_ have been, like Maege Mormont). The aftermath of the Red Wedding in the books has an emotional complexity to it, that the show couldn't match - we get Olenna's conversation with Sansa, a vague mention here & there- & one anemic scene of one of Walder's sons saying 'The Blackwoods are in rebellion against us- & the Mallisters!' & that's it. In the books- it's a seismic event that ripples through all that follows; though the Freys take the lion's share (pardon the pun) of the 'glory'/ blame & the Boltons closely follow - *_everyone_* knows the Lannisters were the reason, & whatever 'dozen at dinner' BS reasoning Tywin tries to put on the action- it's rightly seen as a gross & vile betrayal by the entire realm. Lord Manderley is almost certainly the driving force of the 'North Remembers' plot (that was a travesty in the show), & his appearance in the later half of the story is incredible; we see how he's initially presented: an obese man, obsequious to the Lannister envoys, polite to the Freys, & less than charitable to Stannis' envoy Davos. We see the family's mortification over their sole rebel, the young Wylla Manderley, who seems to be screaming into the void- desperately reminding her family in vain of the loyalty they owe to the Starks who took them in, after they were chased into exile from the Reach many centuries ago. We're initially left feeling at the end of the audience, that Davos is done for- a casualty of the peace being forged in the wake of the Red Wedding. But we're then treated to the most incredible bit of politicking (on par with Doran's 'snakes in the grass' speech to his bastard nieces)- with the revelation of Wyman's 'Mummer's Farce' speech to Davos. It is in my Top 10 Best ASoI&F monologues. Ian McNeice would have absolutely **slain** that role- had it been more than a glorified cameo...
He didn't. He died there in the books. But a lot of people were made captives. Highborn hostages, especially sons of riverlords like Ser Marq Piper. Not everyone was killed in the Red Wedding in the books. The Freys took hostages they deemed necessary alive.
Always wondered if that was why Roselyn Frey kept crying, if she heard a whiff of what was going to happen on her wedding night. Catlyn just wrote it off as a girl being extra nervous.
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.83[1/2] เปิดแคมป์หลอนต้อนรับ 2 ตัวพ่อแห่งวงการผี!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2uPuHYHgwiI/mqdefault.jpg)
This just shows how much the northern lords loved the Starks/ Robb stark.
And Smalljon Umber tries to protect Robb, When in the show he is an ass who joined willingly ramsey against the starks.
@@mermilsin fact it wasn’t the reason why they defected to house Bolton. The reason being because Great Jon Umber is still held captive by the Freys and his uncle decided to side with the boltons even though they disliked them but it was to make sure great jon umber wouldn’t be executed. And in the books House umber is divided one siding with the boltons and the other pledging to Stannis but both sides just wanted the Starks back and not to have great jon umber executed. Plus almost every house in the North are really really loyal to the Starks and are planning to bring them back with house manderly planning to have Rickon Stark retake the north once Ser Davos smuggles him back to the North from Skagos.
Dude, The Northern Lords are the ones who put a knife through his heart in the 1st place dude lmao😂🤣...
@@dineshbalu6107You mean the Boltons, which the rest despise and is about to betray? Stannis is in the North rallying many nobles behind him as well
Just shows how dumb they were
The fact that he said Jaime Lannister sends his regards knowing that she freed him hits so much harder.
It hurts even more knowing that Jaime meant his regards in a positive way, not knowing what will happen. It just gave Stoneheart yet another reason to hate Jaime 😞
Jamie said send my regards to Robb Stark after Bolton had said send Tywin my regards.
@@JevansUKwhat was the reason of Jamie saying that to Bolton, was he just being a dick?
@@eleventhhouseofzenith how would he be a dick by saying that? first of all, he did not know of the Tywin-Waldo plan, and second of all, he didn't even mean it seriously since he knew that Roose could never tell Robb that he helped Jaime
@@WolltazarIt was to be a dick, although he didn't know about the plan but the fact that Roose Bolton actually said it to Robb right before killing him was like Jamie's last fuck you to Robb since they were constantly trading insults to each other.
The scene in the books is so more intense. I remember the Catelyn POV as she noted the musicians were terrible. She thinks how most people would assume he just hired some really cheap musicians, but she felt he hired bad ones on purpose as a petty insult to the Starks. She eventually realises they are bad musicians because they are not musicians, they are soldiers.
The way the build-up to the massacre is written in that chapter is straight-up horror story-tier. One of the most unsettling, nerve-wrecking and oppressive feeling pieces of prose ever.
@@EndOfSmallSanctuary97prose ?
@@oso1165 He misused prose. Prose implies ordinary speech, be it following a rhythmic but realistic pattern or the ordinary speech of common folk in written format.
He used it meaning a story in written form, which is not an actual definition of that word. But we understood what he meant, even if his word choice was foolish.
@@mr.doctorcaptain1124 oh I just didn't know what that word meant and Google wasn't helpful
have you ever said "enormity of the situation"? If you look up what enormity means, you'll see everyone is using it incorrectly. However, we still understand what people are implying because language evolves, as do definitions.
As such, prose has evolved to mean anything written with basic grammatical structure.
And in your effort to sound smart with your "ummm ACTCHUYLY" comment, all you succeeded to do was come off like a pestiferous twat.
Funny thing is: Jaime Lannister actually DID send his regards. Roose Bolton was holding Harrenhal when Jaime and Brienne passed through. Jaime found out that Roose would be seeing Robb at the wedding of Edmure to Roslyn. They have this exchange:
Roose: “You will give my warm regards to your father?”
Jaime: “So long as you give mine to Robb Stark.”
Roose: “That I shall.”
So essentially, Roose decided to pass on Jaime’s regards right as he stabbed Robb, just because he’s an ice cold mf. But Catelyn thinks that Jaime is involved in the Red Wedding because of the timing (which is honestly a reasonable conclusion to draw).
Well... yeah... why would Roose pass along his regards if he didn't send his regards?
@@stevenseagull2030 Is that so?
Do you think Jaime had any idea Roose Bolton betrayed Rob, since he was letting him pass through freely?
I'm surprised Roose referred to Jamie by his actual name and not "The Kingslayer" like everyone else did.
@@BlackBlood297he didn't care for all the kingslaying he did. Probably even came to respect him for that, cold bastard that he was
In the books, it was the job of a bunch of Freys to get Greatjon Umber so drunk he couldn’t fight. Still, the man was beating in heads. Real One
Still took about eight fighting men, he stole a sword off one killing him and badly wounding two others! He really didn't go down easy, underrated character imo
I think Greatjon is still alive, or maybe it’s Smalljon
Greatjon is still alive, Smalljon died protecting Robb. He didn't partake in the wedding festivities so he could be sober in case he needed to fight.
@@mr.hawklingiii8739 Greatjon is alive but imprisoned, Smalljon died at the RW trying to save Robb.
He's at Harrenhal I believe, poor choice of phrasing on 'go down' on my part, I meant more so until he was overwhelmed
And let's not forget the legendary Greatjon Umber, it toke 8 men to pin him down and he killed one and inured two others
While also drunk on enough wine that would kill three regular men. He was the definition of a beast.
@@TheEnergybeam One of the few warriors who Jamie Lannister feared
@@alaaalmelhem2680 make no mistake tho, jaime would kill him very quickly with speed and precision
@@whatisreddin7367 Definitely but it would be an interesting duel
@@whatisreddin7367Even after he lost his hand? ✋
In the end, Caitlin sees how everything is lost. She seems to lose her mind and rakes her own face hard with her nails. Blood trickles down her face and she feels it tickle her. She starts laughing to herself. And one of the Freys says she's lost her head and to kill her.
In the end she thinks of all her children and Ned just before her neck is cut.
Yeah she thinks to herself that they hope they don’t cut her hair since ned always loved her long hair
@@davidking6242😢
@@davidking6242 "Not my hair. Ned loves my hair" not loved... loves. Somehow that makes it even more tragic. That was the only time I cried while reading the first 3 books.
They were originally planning on taking her hostage, but once Catelyn started laughing to herself the Freys knew a half-mad hostage would be useless and made an end of it.
Not my hair... don't cut my hair... my Ned loves my hair 😢
& Greywind was tryna warn him all day! Cat told him to listen to his wolf but he locked him up outside 😩😢
Just as Ghost tried to warn Jon Snow
@@thecockerel86 yup smh
Lady also tried to warn Sansa!
Listen to your direwolves, you Starks of Winterfell.
He also died twice because he warged into Greywind after he died only to be shot down with cross bows.
The original Red Wedding from the book is easily more unsettling, disturbing, horrifying, and more shocking than the version we got in the HBO adaptation. The extra details such as the drums playing and Catelyn Stark's inner thoughts during the massacre gave me goosebumps. The part where Catelyn claws her own face apart was beyond disturbing along with how insane she became after Robb Stark was stabbed through the heart by Roose Bolton's longsword.
They could have made a full episode out of the red wedding. Im honestly a bit baffled that they didnt do that, the showrunners are on record saying they were excited to adapt it from the very beginning. Would have been cool to see the soldiers camps outside the twins more. Would have been cool to see details like a few Freys getting into a drinking contest with the Greatjon before shit goes down. All the bickering of the Freys, all the petty insults before they start killing.
No I disagree..the show does it so much better. In the books Rob doesn't even have a point of view, he feel's more like a side character. And Catherine is the only main character and she lives in the books which in my opinion takes away how big of a moment it is in the show. Along with Rob watching a man stab his wife in the stomach with his unborn child, was just crazy to see.
When I read the Red Wedding it was actually so chaotic, and so shocking with Catelyn clawing at her face, that I thought it was a dream or hallucination. I put down the book for the night convinced, and got laughed at by a coworker about it 😅
Im sure it was , this version was no slouch either
Only works in a book.
Catelyn: A son for a son
Walder: A son for a son, eh. But that's a grandson and he's never been of much use
Grandson has some kind of mental dissability, also.😊
I can't remember, did Catelyn kill the boy in the tv show?
@@mattiassvanberg8292 It was a grown up man and yes, she did
@@hectormiranda1088 And in the books?
@@mattiassvanberg8292 A little correction from myself:
In the show, Catelyn killed Lord Walder's young wife
In the books, Catelyn killed Lord Walder's grown up, simple-minded grandson
That Catelyn chapter will forever go down to the most horrific one I've ever read. I can still remember feeling numb, I couldn't believe what I was reading, it was heartbreaking.
"No, not my hair..."
What do you mean by no not my hair.
@@Moonlight69tNed had always loved her long hair and she didn't want it cut off.
When her hair was grabbed and her head was yanked up right before her throat was slit, "Not my hair... Ned loves my hair" were her final thoughts.@@Moonlight69t
It’s really nice in the book, you also see a Piper man-at-arms that Arya and the hound find in the woods half-dead that says to them “we were drinking and singing, then the Bolton man took a mace to me, as if we weren’t sharing mead seconds before” (or some like that) it really makes you feel their betrayal and how messed up it was.
In the books the whole mood and vibe BEFORE the murders was a slow burn fever dream, even the food was unsettling. They had meat boiled in milk, sheep brain and other weird foods. It was hot and humid and the drum players were all out of sync.
You could sense something bad was about to happen.
The real moment was when they started being horrible to Dayce Mormont and not wanting to dance with her. Something was wrong.
Smalljon was done so dirty by the show, the writers let him survive the red wedding so they could make him a traitor.
That’s what happens when they don’t follow the books
What is more, his betraying doesn't even make any logical sense. Even if you portrait him as a selfish asshole, the moment he would get Rickon Stark, he would immediately start to gather all northern lords to put Rickon back on the throne. Simply because Rickon is the only legitimate heir to Winterfell, and literally nobody likes Ramsey - the bastard with not a single right on a Winterfell, who is same time an insane sadistic bloodthirsty maniac, stable as a torn leaf during a storm. Why in the universe Umber would give such valuable asset as Rickon to that usurper maniac bastard, when Smalljon can lead the rebellion against him, put Rickon back on the throne and basically become the "saviour of the Starks" and regent near Rickon, thus rising to positions higher than anything possible under Ramsey's rule?
Also let’s not forget how he says “I would’ve killed my father if he hadn’t done me the pleasure of dying on his own.” Wtf
@@thedreamscripter4002yeah it's crazy dumb. Any living stark would instantly unite all of the northern lords. They only support bolton cause he claims to have arya stark as a hostage. The north is entirely held by a frey-bolton alliance. And nobody ever liked the boltons, nor the freys
@@thedreamscripter4002 He didnt even get anything in return. He swore fealty to Ramsay and then afterwards "btw heres Rickon as a gift"
WTF. What are you doing Smalljon? Why are you???? What?
I also preferred Roose’s killing blow in the book. A sword through his back rather than a dagger in the heart. The image of Robb falling backwards into the sword as Rose Bolton learns forward to say in his ear (in his quiet, whispery book voice), “Jaime Lannister sends his regards.” was much more chilling to me.
Nossa que horror
Northerners protecting Robb with their bodies, they are so fierce and loyal. Best warriors of Westeros.
The Lannister , Martell armies are more skilled and they have better weapons and armor
@@nicksmithnutmilk doubt any one of their armies are as loyal as the starks army
@@kelanjames8429 the Lannister army is probably more loyal becuse of the money their current Lord paid them . The Dance Of Dragons is a perfect example , it was obvious that the Tullys and Arryns already won yet the Lannister army still fought them for their Lord
@@nicksmithnutmilkthey got destroyed
@@nicksmithnutmilknigga lannisters aren't more skilled,,robb defeated them,,that's why they captured Jamie
Smalljon was a real one 🗿
He got done so dirty in the show.
@@rockinryguy7 Absolutely
The Greatjon too.
So was his father Greatjon... 7 foot tall and a freaking huge man who was an extremely skilled fighter
@@thecockerel86his meat
IS BLUDDY TOOF
They had to get Greatjon Umber excessively drunk before they tried to restrain him. And still, it took like half a dozen men to successfully subdude him. 😂
and the professional alcoholic (merret frey) they got to try outdrink the greatjon ends up not being able to keep up with him despite being drunk himself 95% of the time to deal with his crippling headaches lmao
I think it was a little more than that, plus he killed one of them, man was a G 🗿
(From the third A Song of Ice and Fire book "A Storm of Swords")
Tywin: The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine.
Tyrion: Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he's suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection.
Tywin: I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark's arms and won you another year of war. Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner.
Tywin really was the GOAT
In the books I love the small foreshadowing in the house of the undying when Dany sees it but we don’t find out until later
I think Patchface also predicts it in one of his rhymes.
Patchface, Dany and Theon all dreamed about the red wedding before it happened,@@Serryy
Don’t forget the Ghost of High Heart.
@@bonbonvegabonWhen did Theon?
One of the better hints is in Theon Greyjoy's dream after he captures Winterfell in A Clash of Kings. He dreams of a feast for King Robert turning into gruesome butchery, and panics when he sees Robb in the center of it all@@overkilled653
I like it better in the books but I think it really depends on what you've read/watched first. In the books you have a little hope all the time just to get it crushed in the end, also thinking Arya died but this effect is destroyed if you've watched the show first. The death of Robs wife and the brutality in the show on the other hand still works if you've read the books first.
Robb's wife being there and the gore scene made it something else
Especially the part where they stab her unborn child still inside her. That made me squirm like damn.
they did it because they make her being from Essos she has nothing to do but in books it is better because Westerlings are sworn to Lannisters so there will be more drama when Raynald Westerling will tell them what happened on Red wedding
@@queenxx1690 and its still undecided if robbs child is still alive since robbs wife was forced to drink a anti pregnancy tea by her mother. Would be sick if the child did survive tho
I feel like every woman I know who saw that scene gasped at that moment. I know I did
@@lunaasonininongry6297 I know Rob's heir, Rickon ,Jon and Sansa we are getting Stark's war of succession Rob wrote last will Jon should be heir if he have no natural heir,Ricon is chosen by Manderlis becsuse they don't know that Bran is alive ,Vale and Littlfinger want Sansa,
in the books greywind actually breaks free runs up in there and dies like a g
all the dire wolves died in such lame ways… Lady executed over what Nymeria did, Grey Wind shot while in a kennel, Shaggydog killed off screen, Summer jumping into a group of white walkers (seriously wtf)… Ghost was the only one who the show seemed to care about.
Yeah, Jeyne’s brother let him out
@@nym_r0ddthey're killing the other direwolves to save budget I guess... that's why we rarely seen the direwolves on screen cuz apparently, animating their fur was expensive or something... a shame really. I wonder if they are other options to still make the direwolves appear.
@@Vinva1The dragons took the budget away from the direwolves. There should have been a balance. The dragons grew too quickly and were in too many consecutive episodes.
Dragons took so much budget that large portions of soldiers are always dressed in hobo leather armors in battle.
I also like how Robbs squire who is a frey doesnt want to participate
I think the fact that Robb had a bigger role and more focus in the show made the red wedding more impactful but the other characters and details in the books made it more interesting and refined. I feel like a combination of the two would make it the most compelling.
They were actually effectively protecting Robb until the Frey men at arms with axes came through the main door.
Actually, some were Boltons that came in, I believe. Cat sees Northmen in shaggy fur cloaks come in and has hope for a second, before one of them decapitates the Smalljon. But one of the most heart wrenching moments is when Ryman Frey buries his axe in Dacey Mormont's stomach. I'll never forget reading this chapter for the first time.
"you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" in the books smalljon died protecting his king, in the show he became a villain
The part I found most disturbing in the book was that they beheaded Robb and his direwolf and then paraded his body around with the wolf’s head attached to where his head would have been. The idea that people could be that malicious and so senseless and needless in their cruelty really hit hard.
And small jon took down like 10 men with twice that many bolts in him, instead of turncoating and getting his throat bitten out by tormund
Forgot the best part :
Roose Bolton entry in his full plate pink armor ressembling a peeled man, sword at hand, slashing with walder the black at his side.
With "rain of castamere" playing in the background
Grey wind was also freed and killed a half dozen or so Frey men before finally getting killed
Robb warns into greywind after death, sees Arya, then dies in greywinds body
They should have show that , would have been cool if they put up more of a fight
@@EnergeticVisualsis that part confirmed?
Jaime just had such bad luck in the books
Humbled the piece of sh*t that he was.
Nah, it's his choices. Not luck. In fact he's extremely lucky if anything
He makes his own luck
Did you know, in the books, everything was better !
One thing was better, Cat holding that dagger at Walder's wife's throat instead of the son was better. Obviously he'd let some half brain fool die, but his wife? That’s cruel even by the medieval standards
Not really.
Last TV season of Game of the Thrones > all other material from that universe.
Unironically, only the last season gave the show justice.
@@kingol4801lmao
@@kingol4801 Obviously you would pick the worst last season in all of tv as your argument.
@@kingol4801 having brain damage must be tough
I actually cryed while reading the Red Wedding, but i couldn't stop reading because i wanted that to pass on. It was excrusiating!
Reading this chapter the first time. I'll never forget it. It's almost like a crossroad in life.
For those who only watched the show (I’m not one of them, I’m reading the books and am past this point) then there would be great uncertainty as to whether Catelyn freeing Jaime led to her and Robb’s deaths, because although Jaime does say give my regards, there’s no reason to believe he knew about the Freys’ upcoming betrayal on behalf of Tywin……UNLESS people want to say/believe he was implying Roose should betray the Starks on his own. In the books/reality, Jaime being freed did not affect or impact the massacre at the Twins; Tywin just knew they’d be there and was savvy enough to reach out to Walder Frey and promise him safety to act out “vengeance” which benefitted the Lannisters far more than Lord Walder’s simple fury at Robb’s marriage to someone else
The show doesn't give the northmen enough credit. They've only been fighting nature and wildlings since birth. Jon leading them into Kings Landing to butcher the Lannisters was awesome
They didn't butcher any lannister though, it was soldiers & bannermen which aren't to be blamed
The show doesn't give credit to anyone. Especially not to Stannis's faction, Dorne, and the Iron Islands, who are all losers in the TV version. And yes, even the Freys don't get enough credit in the show, since in the books are at least powerful and more respected.
These northmen havent fought wildlings at all. Well, most of them. Some of the Umbers and mountain clan members might have.
@@gooby214 The Freys aren't "respected" by anyone in the books. Everyone knows they're a bunch of traitors, even the Lannisters who ally with them.
@@gooby214 and Aegon Targaryen isnt even in the show! one of my favoreite characters, and an extremely important piece in the game of thrones. he actually would have the best claim to it as well
Poor Jaime he was literally as uninvolved as he could possibly be now he’s got an undead wight with a death transcending vengeance after him lol
Well I mean he did specifically tell Roose to send his regards to Lady Catelyn
Leaving Lady Stoneheart out of the show was a crime!
I don't think anyone wanted to see her as anymore in the show. No one wants their zombie mother following them around and honestly Catelyn was just an annoying fool in the show. Stuff that was too "momish" like telling Stannis and Renly "if I was your mother I'd knock your heads together...blah blah blah." Plus her foolishness like not getting that the dagger was a plant or releasing Jamie just made her too stupid to keep around. Getting rid of her in the show is the only good divergence from the books I can think of.
@@Absolute_Goblin You liked your own post! That says all anyone needs to know about your opinions😂😂😂
She might have been annoying in the show but the lady stoneheart from the books was so vividly told that I could picture her creepy glare through the words. Cutting her out was a crime, even if cat had a shit actor (personally I liked her) That, and the fact that there was another targareyn (and no, not jon). Of whom actually invaded long before daenerys did, with the Golden Company. "Young Griff" (who is actually aegon targareyn) missing from the show was probably the worst, especially because Tyrion met him in the books.
You mean Aegon Blackfyre
Even worse lady Mormont was here and died protecting Robb she was killed with an axe to the stomach which is why in the show Lyanna says her mother died fighting for Robb
lol Her mother is Mage and shes still alive in the books. Its Lyanna Mormonts sister Dacey who dies protecting Rob at the red wedding
@@bonbonvegabon mate read the book again it’s lady Mormont
@@dylanmccool22Lady Mormont at that time was Maege who was at the wedding but it never said what happened to her as she was with Edmure during the betrayal and not Caitlyn. The Lady Mormont that died was Dacey. Edwyn Frey refusing to dance with Dacey was one of the final hints about the Frey’s plan.
@@dylanmccool22 Dacey was Lyanna's older sister. There are like 5 Mormont daughters. Mage Mormont (the lady of House Mormont and Lyanna's mother) went with Galbett Glover to the Neck to meet up with Howland Reed.
I know that it was changed quite a bit but honestly the episode still packs a punch… one of the harshest episodes I’ve ever seen in any show
Yeah, the fact that Dacey Mormont in particular takes down the guys grabbing at her, makes it to the door, only to get run through before she can get outside. And god, the ending of the Red Wedding in the books. Catelyn cuts Jinglebell so deep she hits bone, starts laughing and clawing at her face, and her last thought before having her own throat cut so deep she can’t speak as Lady Stoneheart is “don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair”. Fucking brutal.
Looking back, the show’s version was the early warning sign of the fact D&D cared more about shock value and short-term talking points than they were about actually writing anything compelling.
Even earlier signs were when they removed “the Rhoynar” from the title of the monarch and changing characters’ names/making composite characters/removing them entirely so “the audience wouldn’t be confused”.
I’ll always love HotD for reinstating the former and mitigating the latter.
The scene is amazing in the books. But let’s not act like the one in the show was bad. It’s one of the most famous scenes in television history. Books will always be better because there’s no limitations. D&D were bad at the end. But their Red Wedding wasn’t a warning sign at all. It’s one of their few highlights.
@@davidbaker6157yes you have to take the audience into account when creating a television show. Crazy thought huh? Lol.
@@TheProdigy_916 yeah, I probably should have clarified - I agree that the scene itself, in isolation, is fucking amazing. My saying it’s a ‘warning sign’ is based on how their dumbing down of Robb’s marriage fundamentally changes his narrative arc.
Show Robb marries for love, then he and his wife get stabbed at a wedding because he’s an oathbreaker. And I can see why D&D went that way, because “the woman Robb loves so much he threw away an alliance to marry her, who’s also pregnant, just got stabbed in the baby-maker” is horrifying, genuinely. I remember the first time I watched it I literally went cold all over, that shit is hard to watch.
But. Robb in the books didn’t marry for love. He married for honour, duty, and because the Westerlings are scheming bastards who used their daughter as a pawn. He married her because the last thing Cat said to him before he went off to battle was reaffirming the fact that bastards get treated like shit, and growing up watching Jon’s treatment meant he couldn’t bear to even possibly have a bastard child. Robb’s marriage in the books is the result of so many different factors, and it means he dies the same way as his father - because of a sense of rigid honour.
The events leading into the book version are more complex, and the events resulting from it (Lady Stoneheart and the Freys possibly being cursed for breaking guestright, and definitely being despised by the rest of the Riverlands) are also largely ignored in the show.
So yeah, the scene itself? Outstanding, that and Cersei blowing up the sept are probably my favourite moments in the series. But when you really look into it, with the benefit of hindsight, that’s where you can see the edges start to fray. They didn’t want to do the full set-up (whether because they prioritised the shock value of Talisa, or they thought Robb would be less relatable if he married for anything other than love), they didn’t pick up the full complement of plot threads afterwards, all to streamline the story. And while it’s somewhat understandable, it is what led to the final few seasons feeling like “Game of Thrones Abridged”.
@@RainWelshVocê foi cirúrgico nas suas falas! Robb casar por amor é idiota
I mean I do like how in the show the Bolton's and Lannisters were more strategic with it like they got a lot of the northerners drunk and unable to fight so it would be a lot easier. Not to mention the walder Frey's comeback to Caitlyn when she's about to kill his wife is so cold id never change that lol
The show really did Smalljon Umber dirty
I'm gonna play the Reigns of Castamere (Instrumental) at my brothers wedding. Just gonna wait until everything gets quiet for a second, then have it start playing over the loud speakers.
Oh No! That would be the BEST yet terrifying prank ever!
you sir, are an evil man. thanks for the idea
Thats evil and I love it
Everything is better in the books. That drum beat throughout the scene added so much and foreshadowed what Catelyn would become amazingly well
no, the series is more compact and does not get lost in 1000 different plots that it cannot conclude as is the case in books which will never have an end since grrm created something much too complicated
The show version left me in shock.
If they had portrayed Rob’s loyal banner men all giving their lives desperately trying to save the king they truly loved, I would have been left in tears.
This makes me wish these shows followed the books more closely. Such a well written book.
The books are always better. And shame on George R.R. Martin for abandoning this masterpiece of literature.
no, the series is more compact and does not get lost in 1000 different plots that it cannot conclude as is the case in books which will never have an end since grrm created something much too complicated
agree, but he hasnt abandoned it. he made a statement that he trying to get Winds of Winter out around the end of 2024.
@@poseidenforceccj2528he’s been saying that since 2014
@@poseidenforceccj2528
He never made this statement.
Greatjon Umber even being drunk fully crushed his foes
The red wedding was based off the Glencoe massacre, a real life event in Scotland
Black Dinner
@@nickcopelli5265 I'm a descendant of capt Robert campbell, of the red wedding or glencoe massacre
"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son." Tywin to Tyrion. He was wrong about Jeyne, but right about Robb.
Tywin's words showed his brilliance in playing the game of thrones, and hammers home that Robb was truely his father's heir.
Jeyne armou para Robb casar com ela uma pilantra de marca maior
he slept with her in grief because he thought Bran and Rickon had died. She helped nurse him back to health and married her out of duty, not love.
@@rfabsulousVerdade! Mas jeyne se aproveitou do luto de Robb ao dormir com ele, ela fez tudo para casar com um homem que estava acima da posição social dela.
"Jaime Lannister sends his regards" is so much more of a middle finger to both Robb and Jaime then "the Lannisters send their regards" ... just one of the many, many changes that ruined the show, even if it was such a small detail. Roose' reasons for saying it were as much a dig at Jaime as it was at Robb and serves to show how cruel and petty he was.
Small? One could argue he was a GIANT in spirit. 🫡
The book version was “better” for the book version. The screen version was much better for the screen version.
The fact alone that we don’t only lose Robb but the only couple that seems to have found actual happiness in this dreamcrushing world, made it much more shocking and painful.
Não havia amor nesse casamento apenas luxúria Robb ficou tão fraco e bobo por essa mulher, ela deu um golpe nele que caiu direto no truque de talisa
No. Those soldiers fell voer instantly against the weak-minded Freys.
Frei had no right to make demands of the Starks, he was a bannerman, he owed the starks his loyalty but, Catlin was an idea.
Wrong. You think being the overlord makes a house entitled to insult their bannermen and not respect their promises and duties toward them? Absolutely wrong and incorrect. Even the royal house has to RESPECT its vows and duties to the bannermen. Walder didn't owe any loyalty after he was betrayed by Robb. He just went the wrong way about his revenge. With your mentality, you would've ended up the same as the Mad King, Joffrey, and Robb. Foolish, entitled, and naive.
The bannermen don't owe allegiance to lords blindly. Even worse when the Starks were supported as kings by the TULLYS, the true lieges of the Freys. No dude, when overlords insult their vassals and break their oaths and duties toward them, the vassals have the right to repay them by no longer following them. It happened with Lyonel Baratheon when he was slighted by the Targaryens after a prince married another woman instead of the promised Baratheon bride. Lyonel rebelled against the Iron Throne. After he submitted, the Targaryens apologized and made new arrangements to make amends.
@@gooby214Robb's mistake was trying to solve things the quickest he could, the moment Lord Frey refused to let Robb's army cross the twins, he should proclaim the Freys traitors and hold siege against them, the war could take a month or 2 longer, but eventually he would've get passed 'em, he had already proven to be better than Tywin in open field battle, even with preparation the nothern lords were just better than the Lannisters in the field, but impacience along with sheer arrogance of not having lost a single battle made Robb lose, he got cocky and presumed anyone would help him, naive.
@@gooby214
I think the point is that he had no right to demand that a KING gets married to one of his daughters to allow him pass through the gates while he is a bannerman of the Tully, who are vasals to said king.
It's as if the Tarly, who are bannermen of the Tyrell, said to Daenerys that she needs to marry one of them if she wants them to be her vassals. Of course, leverage is a thing and these 2 situations have nothing to do with one another contextually (the Frey were holding a strategic linchpin that the Stark needed while the Tarly were already subdued), but the point is that Walder Frey was punching way above his weight class in his demands from the get go.
Walder frey swore fealty to robert baratheon too and he probably doesn't know joffrey is a bastard. Ultimately robb brought the red wedding on himself. Walder frey had repeatedly been insulted by every great house, including a 10 year old tywin lannister and his own liege lord, and then finally when he gets respect and prestige from a great house by them offering to make any one of his daughters a queen hes overjoyed. He even lets robb choose, and doesn't demand it happen immediately. He sends 5000 soldiers to help robb led by his sons and grandsons, many of whom die fighting for robb. And what does robb do? He sends the biggest "fuck you" possible, by marrying a woman whose house is poor and can raise 50 men. Even robb knew the severity of what he did which is why he gave cat a pass for freeing jaime.
@vanitas.... robb couldn't lay siege to the twins. The twins are two castles on two sides of the river with a bridge between. If you besiege one side, you have to also besiege the other, but you would have to have an army on the other side which robb did not have. Tywin would have just marched his whole army to the twins, jaime would have done the same after capturing riverrun and then together with the freys they'd have demolished the northerners.
Dear lord Argus Filtch really got unhinged after Mrs norris got petrified in harry potter 2 didn't he 😮
Walder Frey technically refuses because aegon is a grandson. And I think using lady Frey was a better choice.
I remember listening/reading (audible) this chapter while working as an overnight custodian. I was uncomfortable the rest of the night. FANTASTIC book 🔥
Not all of them died too. Many, or at least some, including Umber were taken prisoner and will most likely be freed by Arya when She comes back
Dude. So naive to think the bs you saw in the show will ever happen in the books. Stop thinking the trash plotlines you saw in the show will happen in the books. Arya revenge nonsense will NEVER happen in the books. Ever. That was TV fanservice. Arya's storyline will never bring her to the Twins. The silly Tv show stole the pie thing from Wyman Manderly, who is the one who has 3 Freys baked into pies. Also, Jaime already instructed the Freys to deliver the Red Wedding captives to Tommen in King's Landing, so they are leaving the Twins already.
So this will make the revenge of the Starks more intense in the books
There's no revenge of the Starks in the books. Only Lady Stoneheart.
@gooby214 who is lady stoneheart ? Is it catelyn stark?
@@ayushigupta8776 Its Catelyn who is brought back by Beric (whos way cooler in the books). But she's sort of...decomposed. So the Brotherhood listens to her and basically takes out Freys and Lannisters.
I dont know if the books will ever be finished. Lust for gold has taken GRRM.
@@rfabsulous why did they bring her back?
They Ruined house umber in the show and especially smalljon. He was a unquestionably loyal hero and died trying to protect his king. He and Dacey Mormont(who's not even in the show) fought to the last moment.
The character assassination David and Dan commit on SmallJon makes me cry ugly tears.
And she like ripped half her face off or something like that. It was insane
Nah, the show's depiction was much better. The fact it was so sudden and unexpected that it even completely caught off-guard the Starks to the point they didn't have to time to put up any defense was what made it into such an iconic moment. Book fans always think everything in the books is better lol
Tbh i cant say one is better, i loved the show one cause within 5 minute it felt like the world is over.
The book tho there is more hope. Robs wife has a child, Catylen wants revenge, and ofc the fighting is not purely one sided…. And greywind :/
Ser Raynald Westerling. Robb's brother-in-law in the books opened Grey Wind's cage and died in the attempt. Falling into the Green Fork.
I like that the show didn't outwardly blame jaime directly, But I woulda loved to see the northern lords fightback 100%
Them dying instantly makes more sense, bcoz they were at a feast, completely unaware, with one Frey behind each of them to slaughter them before they can realise whats gonna happen, not to mention the archers, they weren't even dressed for a battle, so no protectives either, one arrow, one blow, and its gone
The reason why Northern Lords is so much better in the books. Their loyalty is so strong. While in the shows, most houses ready to betray the Starks, even the Umber betrayed Rickon Stark for no reason.
Fr
Imagine if Lady Stoneheart used dark magic to bring Robb back to life, but Grey Wind's head is still attached to his body and he becomes a blood thirsty killer.
I love this. ❤
Wouldn't say its much better just more detailed, I love the the books but the shows version definitely hits hard
Talking about the Smalljon's attempt to fight back while not talking about the Greatjon's. A Frey was specifically told to drink a lot with the Greatjon to get him too drunk to resist. But when shit hit the fan. The Greatjon was still able to kill several men before finally being captured and imprisoned.
It's easier to film a slaughter than a battle
Verdade
In the books this was telegraphed from waaaay before as well. You could witness through Arya's chapters that Tywin was constantly exchanging letters and in some cases straight up reciving visiters from Freys and Boltons.
im still so heartbroken about the ending man. i feel betrayed by the ending lmfao
yea dude imagine a targarian girl came from nothing collected all that army helped alot saved the 7 kingdoms from the deads and helped the man who killed her !! she was perfect before the 2 smartasses decided to make her so evil in the last 2 eps worst ending ever
@@Kata-oy4gl agreed. she lost herself in 2 episodes...which if they were going todo that they needed a whole season to see her spin out of control. losing everyone she loved ok so imma go burn the whole city down now
@@tristannaylor5197 exactly dude !! we all love jon right but that was soo bad to make him kill her ! as u said if u wanna ruin the ending make another season and make her go evil then okay let jon kill her !! but we felt bad for both at the end due to bad writing
I think I actually prefer it being a surprise, if it was just an all out duel it would’ve felt like a lot of other scenes already in game of thrones. It being a shock and watching everyone get murdered with no clue is what made it so heart wrenching in my opinion
It was a big surprise for me in the book as well
The only thing I disagree on is that the line, "The Lannisters send their regards", is far better than just saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards".
I wish it was Greatjon who threw the table. Going from refusing to march with him to throwing a table over him to protect his king over himself would've been an amazing arc
Please do a video on Euron Greyjoy! One of my favorite characters
Why
@@Thegoat12801 He's amazing. Wdym
@@pensyour4823 he’s no Jon snow
@@Thegoat12801 Jon Snow is a total bore. Only simpletons favor him...generic hero. Euron is a nightmare in the books.
as soon as cat heard the musicians play "rains of castamere" i knew it was over
Actually the sad part of the red Wedding is a bit underwhelming in the book, lasting only about 4 pages or so. I get it's realistic since it happened very fast, but it doesn't even give yiu the time to process the events. This and Oberyn's death were actually more impactful in the show, if not strictly better.
I did think it was weird The Starks were so unprepared for what happened in the show. The Frays and The Boltons pride themselves on being known as the villains. No one on Robb's side should have let their guard down like that
In the books we got more heroic things while in the show we got more drama. I think it is fair exchange.
No it isn't, fuck D&D
Not really, but ok.
@@someguy8273come on, that shock when everything starts to go down and you don't have any time to process...
I think the fact that the northmen themselves couldn't understand what was happening is great because the viewer identifies with them, so it hurts so much more when everyone starts dying. as opposed to if they had started fighting immediately, and the viewer would feel as if they're watching from the sidelines (which is still shocking but it doesn't have that emotional element).
Removing Lady Stoneheart was a mistake. Cat died thinking all of her children were dead or lost to her. I am hoping she comes out of her madness when she learns otherwise.
Plebeian take. Putting up with D&D's crap. They destroyed Stannis's storyline in every season.
They killed Smalljon and Daisy Mormont, robbing both Bear Island and Last Hearth of their heirs and me of two of my favorite characters.
I wish we couldve know what robb’s reaction to this betrayal, knowing that its his stupidity that made it possible to happen
I think cinematically, the scene hits harder when they’re all slaughtered with little resistance. It plays up the “these were people that were trusted” angle
The red wedding on the TV show was way better than the book. Rob, his wife and mother thought there cause was Righteous and Noble and the characters along with the fans started drinking the coolaid that Rob was not just the King of the north, but the true king of westeros and they got caught slipping in the most brutally violent way possible. It set the tone for the entire serious. The fans could love other characters and hope they would succeed but in the back of their minds they knew it could all end at any moment.
Copy/pasta.
Humbly disagree. Robb in the book fucked up with the marriage but it was for "honor", because he slept with her and felt guilty. Show Robb was just horny. Made it sillier.
And Lyanna Mormonts sister Dacy went out like a boss too protecting Rob and lost her life
Also in the books it was a long sword the pierced Rob Stark instead in the show it was just a dagger which has alot of implications in my opinion.
Honestly the best part of the red wedding in the books vs. the show is how clearly it's foreshadowed rather than just being shock value. In the books you know something terrible is coming for Robb and the only reason it might take you by surprise is because you don't want to believe it.
I agree that if we follow everything and not missing out important details in the book at the first place, this scene would work better when it comprehensive. But since the movie had cut off so many character lines and stories, it is just reasonable to reduce the tension of Robb’s side and focus more on the terriying cold blood suprise twist. Also Lady stoneheart is not intended to put on the show, so exclude the jaimee part dialogue was maybe a good choice, at least in my opinion. Doesn’t mean i said the movie is better than the book anyway, just only this scene i dont think it is necessary to add more complex
I love Jaime's scenes with Jeyne (Robb's book wife) and with her mother in A Feast for Crows. When they make small changes like this, sometimes they work in the moment but ruin future scenes that are fantastic.
I have to disagree.
I thought the book was underwhelming after seeing the show
Although I can appreciate how they kept the music playing throughout the entire event as well as playing it from The Two Towers afterwards
same in the books it’s kind of expected in the show its more subtle and can go anyway
@@officialyoungmari they have a great misdirection with having him planning the battle of moat cailin
That's what most movies miss out on in my opinion. They focus only on the main characters and use simple soldiers or non main characters as cannon fooder. This often leads to scenes, not for the red wedding, because the setting is different, but normal battle scenes where you only see one side getting slaughtered seemingly without any skills. I think it would always hit harder if you let them die doing stuff they were trained for. Shield Rob with a table and their lives or simply through commands like "protect your king!" They will still fail but I think it would be better. Same goes for the antagonist side. A bit like in the last samurai during the night attack on the village.
On one hand i prefer the shows’ version. It shows how sudden and unexpected it happened and how no one saw it coming or could do anything about it. On the other hand i can imagine how the books’ version is much more epic to read, but might not translate as well on tv
Damn hearing that black ops 2 main menu music around 12 minutes in the video put a smile on my face lol
Like many things adapted from books to the screen, particularly the TV screen, the Red Wedding was drastically reduced in scale. Thousands of north men died there, it was a massacre, where as in the show its not even 50 of them that die
@levy9595
There were thousands of soldiers,etc. killed outside. They showed that.
There were also several taken hostage, as a means of trying to secure the good behaviour of the lords who weren't there- like Lord Manderley- it wasn't just Edmure that was held. In the show, it just looked like they killed *everyone* present (including people that _shouldn't_ have been, like Maege Mormont).
The aftermath of the Red Wedding in the books has an emotional complexity to it, that the show couldn't match - we get Olenna's conversation with Sansa, a vague mention here & there- & one anemic scene of one of Walder's sons saying 'The Blackwoods are in rebellion against us- & the Mallisters!' & that's it. In the books- it's a seismic event that ripples through all that follows; though the Freys take the lion's share (pardon the pun) of the 'glory'/ blame & the Boltons closely follow - *_everyone_* knows the Lannisters were the reason, & whatever 'dozen at dinner' BS reasoning Tywin tries to put on the action- it's rightly seen as a gross & vile betrayal by the entire realm.
Lord Manderley is almost certainly the driving force of the 'North Remembers' plot (that was a travesty in the show), & his appearance in the later half of the story is incredible; we see how he's initially presented: an obese man, obsequious to the Lannister envoys, polite to the Freys, & less than charitable to Stannis' envoy Davos.
We see the family's mortification over their sole rebel, the young Wylla Manderley, who seems to be screaming into the void- desperately reminding her family in vain of the loyalty they owe to the Starks who took them in, after they were chased into exile from the Reach many centuries ago.
We're initially left feeling at the end of the audience, that Davos is done for- a casualty of the peace being forged in the wake of the Red Wedding. But we're then treated to the most incredible bit of politicking (on par with Doran's 'snakes in the grass' speech to his bastard nieces)- with the revelation of Wyman's 'Mummer's Farce' speech to Davos. It is in my Top 10 Best ASoI&F monologues.
Ian McNeice would have absolutely **slain** that role- had it been more than a glorified cameo...
I loved in the books where Robb’s direwolf’s head was sewn onto Robb’s body after he was beheaded
How did Smalljon Umber survive and get back to Last Hearth?
He didn't. He died there in the books. But a lot of people were made captives. Highborn hostages, especially sons of riverlords like Ser Marq Piper. Not everyone was killed in the Red Wedding in the books. The Freys took hostages they deemed necessary alive.
Always wondered if that was why Roselyn Frey kept crying, if she heard a whiff of what was going to happen on her wedding night. Catlyn just wrote it off as a girl being extra nervous.