Willow Creek Core Meeting 26 May 2021 Lionizing of Bill Hybels
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2021
- At Willow Creek South Barrington's Congregational Meeting May 2021, with about 200 Core Committed members present, Senior pastor Dave Dummitt and Campus pastor Shawn Williams lionized Bill Hybels.
This 8 minutes content does not belong to me, and is shared for purposes of criticism and education from the longer hour long video of the entire congregational meeting which Willow Creek has graciously made public at www.willowcreek.org/en/locati...
Full transcript of this video can be seen at docs.google.com/document/d/1H...
Wow, shocked that both of these leaders are not willing to first start by acknowledging the severe abuse this pastor caused to the women of the church...the speed of the leader needs to be focused on healing those victims...NOT on hurrying the process!
Why be shocked? God's word tells us an overseer must be above reproach. Your corporation leaders are above being reproached big difference. Many will say to me in that day Lord Lord and I will say to them flee from me I never knew you lawbreakers and doers of iniquity
I'm saddened, but not shocked. In my early years of attending WCCC (1990's) I clearly recall an evening meeting where a woman from the worship team, who was found to be having an affair, was called to confess her sin and details of their involvement, the two families involved publicly ( her children, his children)to the entire gathering (New Community? I think it must have been a Wed night?) The leadership team placed her in an accountability process for restoration to the community and she submitted to their restoration plan. Bill led the evening meeting with staff and elders involved as well, I'm guessing, but I can't recall exact terms. It was raw and tough to watch and listen to, as she humbly and verbally repented before everyone gathered there that night. It was held up as an example of how churches should hold their leadership accountable. Knowing now what we now know, it is painfully ironic that none of this occurred with the male she was involved with or with the leader who was either doing the same thing or at least grooming women for the same thing at the same time. Speed of the leader, speed of the team, indeed. WCCC has not learned. Women continue to be victim blamed and shamed, while others escape the white hot light, or even worse, are heralded as "once in a lifetime leaders". The "both and" treatment in this case is the definition of hypocrisy.
I'm so sorry, SH =(
I also recall that same instance that you are describing; you are correct that it happened at New Community. I remember that he also publicly shamed PJVR (I think you know who this is) in the same manner, calling him out to confess a similar sin in front of a packed congregation. In this case, I think it was a weekend service, so presumably, he had to do it 3 times. The male vocalist (first name began with M--I don't want to give out any other information) was forced to do this also, a couple of years later. Hybels behavior was nothing short of SADISTIC! I witnessed these 3 events firsthand, but I heard through the rumor mill that when he had his senior staff meetings in his cabin in Michigan, he was ruthless, and belligerent to some his own staff.......instead of behaving pastorally. I spent almost 30 years there. I was suspicious when Ortberg, Appel, Breaux, and a 4th paster, whom, I cannot recall his name, all quit within months because they all found out the truth about him, confronted him, and when Hybels denied all of it, they all resigned. Because ALL of this was covered up, no one in the congregation knew a thing.. I did think it was strange, though, that all of these pastors quit suddenly and within a short period of time........now I know why. HE should be subjected to the same treatment that he dished out to these 3 other people.
Mr W, Billy was projecting on to them what he needed.
I was a member then, too. I a friend who worked there who told a joke that was suggestive and offensive. Not excusing him, but Hybels took him DOWN for it. In light of this, it’s the ultimate hypocrisy
Comparing the "brokenness" of crippling mental illness with the wickedness of sexually predatory behaviour is a pretty big stretch.
“God has a way of not wasting pain.” Pastor, the only ones with the right to say that about the circumstances you allude to are BH’s victims! This is tone-deaf in so many ways. Sounds like WC is still about protecting the brand of WC, instead of its lambs.
So many cliches, so little Biblical truth. This is the Willow Creek way... use catchy cultural leadership phrases, MAYBE sprinkle a Bible verse. But this is a very man/flesh ministry.
This is toxic. Nothing has changed at Willow. Still not honoring the victims, still not calling out the perpetrator, instead, laughing about it and praising him. Purely toxic. No wonder WILLOW CAN’T SEEM TO MOVE PAST THIS.
Yes, dangerous. I'm thinking it would be good for Willow Creek to minimize Hybels's legacy until Hybels has the courage to own his issues. With great repentance, there is great grace.
Whoa... just going out on a limb here but probably should have sat this one out.
Nah, this ain’t it. Nothing “polarizing,” just right and wrong.
Wow, you guys should be ashamed of this response. Shadow, broken..? You completely glossed over the truth and downplayed reality in order to save face. This breaks my heart and makes me so angry. Why don't people say Bill's name? Because it came to light that he had sinned, broken the law, and hurt many women. This conversation should have pivoted to what the church needs to do to take care of the hurting victims and what changes need to be in place to ensure no one in leadership can get away with anything so horrible again. Seriously.... Come on guys.
As a clergy woman, this is dangerous. You can't both and abusers. We tend to do this with abusive male leaders. Let them live in the both and. He abused women and broke trust. In my ordination vows I promised to care for my people. If I started to abuse people, I would lose my ordination and I should. Grace is important and we can give him grace, but not also gold him up as a good example. He is not and to try to say it can be dismissed his victims.
Agree. Very harmful to say how things were beautiful under the leadership of Bill Hybels. My heart hurts for those who experienced deep deep harm. He was trying to do the “both/and” thing and totally dismissing the abuse. And then he was commended - absolutely terrible. I don’t think he’s even aware of what he just said/did.
Did Jesus say we all take up our own cross and follow him? The cross is the consequence of our own choice. For Bill, his cross is the consequence of his choice of harming his sheep. Victims need to forgive him but Bill has to be responsibly facing the cross, which is, the judgment from his community.
@@robertmccown7525 clearly you haven't read the Bible, then, in Greek.
Amen
To ordain a woman is not only unscriptural but it is a sin out of God's order!
Bill Hybels is not merely "broken", but he's also a sinner who has harmed others with both his brokenness and his sin. Brokenness comes from the wounds we receive from living in a fallen world and interacting with other sinners. Being broken is often beyond our control and therefore something for which we are not necessarily culpable. But sin is the evil behavior we choose and for which we are both culpable and responsible. We need to distinguish between those two things. To equate Bill Hybel's sinful, abusive actions to those of a profoundly depressed young man who lost his life to mental illness is unconscionable. It is to minimize, excuse, and paper over Hybel's abuse.
You took the words right out of my mouth. There is a huge difference between the actions of Bill Hybels and Rick Warren’s son. There is still so much unknown about depression and there are several types of depression. But as an illness it is chemically based and can be severely debilitating....sapping literally the energy and life right out of the sufferer. That is what Rick’s son lived with. A very dark and painful place with absolute hopelessness. Talk with someone who has lived with this and you will be majorly surprised. Just as someone who has never had cancer and all that comes with that cannot explain to a non cancer patient what they are experiencing, so too a clinically depressed person cannot explain what they are living with to someone who has never been there. Rick’s son had an illness that he could not control, it was certainly not his choice just as any illness is no ones choice. It’s the result of living in a fallen world.
Now as for Bill Hybels, he had huge issues for years as has been learned. As a result of his actions towards women, there has resulted much pain, shame and suffering. But his actions WERE his choice and yes that is sin in God’s eyes. His Word has much to say about this. Bill not only perpetrated sexual abuse but also spiritual abuse of his victims.
So I ask you....where is Bill now? He has not owned his actions, they were covered up by the church and many many people were hurt. That is further spiritual abuse of his congregants. So the whole church has been abused. There are victims everywhere now from the selfish, sinful choices of one prideful man, BH. Those victims have reacted in many different ways with some leaving the church and some just walking away from the Lord. The fallout from his choices are incredibly hard to imagine. So listening to this video with all the lighthearted talk, joking and most of all the laughter of the group in the background, I was shocked. Here they were discussing BH in such a light way, the pastor speaking first referred to WC as this organization ( excuse me, it’s not the business world here but a group of believers in the King of Kings. Used to be called a church ). Then he reiterates all the good things that he sees as being part of BH’s legacy.
Does he not see that the legacy is very tarnished? This group has been hurt, split and spiritually abused if they were there under BH. They needed compassion, they are hoping to find a leader who they can trust. I don’t think this is the guy. It wouldn’t be for me. Nowhere did he even mention the victims. Perhaps he is in denial. I’m not sure. But there should be deep sorrow acknowledged for these victims. That should have been the starting place. Admission of his sin, repentance, sorrow and lament is where BH should be. Until he publicly confesses to his sin and asks the church to forgive him ( which is after him going contritely before God to acknowledge sin and ask for forgives ), there really isn’t going to be a restoration and healing there. As for his victims he needs to meet privately with each one in the presence of two elders to confess to them and humbly ask for forgiveness. But if he cannot own his sin, there will be no true chance for healing in this church. It’s deeply troubling.
These pastors minimized the victims and sound like idiots trying to excuse behavior with Gods grace. Abusing your congregation as a wolf in sheep's clothing is completely pathetic and abusing the congregation even more so.
As a former Willow intern, this video shows how malformed responses to abuse can be in religious settings. I can’t support this church anymore.
This is just so sad. When you have people more concerned with legacy rather than upholding God's holiness in his church, you get these two guys and others who think like them. Just so sad. Leaders are called to present a purified bride before Christ, not a compromised club of buddies. How can there be a "moving on" from scars when they remain open? Confession, repentance and justice is what will heal those scars. I'm really horrified by this take. I am confident that God would never prioritize the ministry over walking blameless before Him. Micah 6:8, 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.
@@lijlee3605 The head is Christ but the church is the body and it our duty as Christ followers to speak the truth in love and to build up the body of Christ. When evil occurs, it's our duty to speak out against it, God calls us to do so. Whether it be within the church or when we see evil happening outside of it (like in Ethiopia). Also, I would prefer if you didn't use Amharic. I'm a Tigrayweti who speaks Tigrinya.
God it's just so creepy the things pastors laugh about. They are such weasels with their words.
It’s like they don’t even hear themselves? They must think they are talking to a bunch of first graders. It’s so condescending. And they wow one another for saying the most surface nothing.
@@DanaDangelo88 Yeah well the people eat it up, right out of their hand. So so gross.
Any amount of money says this dude will be on that stage again in five years like “I don’t know this guy in our church who is accused of preying on our youth group kids, but he is a once in a lifetime pastor!”
They already paid out 3 milli in lawsuits for another staff member that molested two special needs children AFTER bill was ousted..
Hopefully your "there" will someday be more openly honoring towards those who suffered abuse and against whom the abuse was covered up. Glorifying the male leader abuser before that happens is dishonoring in the extreme.
@@lij8735 Here are the words Shawn Williams and David Dummitt used to glorify unrepentant sexual predator founder Bill Hybels in the video above:
*incredibly powerful
*personally life changing
*a very profound impact on my life
*a once in a generation leader
*What God accomplished through the ministry here--through his leadership--the influence that God extended through Willow Creek under his leadership--I, I, it’s unlike anything that I probably know. I don’t know of another example around the globe.
*It's a beautiful thing
*God did some amazing things through the leadership of Bill Hybels
*It's beautiful
How about mentioning the women, the victims? "Our story has some pain and God has this way of not wasting our pain" SOME PAIN? How incredibly arrogant. Did you speak to the women and tell them God is not wasting their pain?
This is awful. How pathetic to keep asking for grace and saying he's going to step on landmines. Not a single word about the victims of a man who is unrepentant and did things that were flat out WRONG for decades. No broken tree or shadow BS. Hybels doesn't deserve celebration, he deserves to be in jail.
AMEN!!!! EXACTLY!!!! Just more psychobabble - which isn't at all surprising coming out of WCCC!
I for myself am content with a judgment according to works as in Romans 2, 9f.
Pharaoh was a "once in a generation leader."
I want to start by saying I believe EVERY woman who came forward, and I pray for those who live in fear of speaking out. Bill Hybels is a monster who used the church platform to sexually abuse his victims, and there is nothing about this that is honoring to God. As a clergy abuse survivor myself from another congregation, I am grieved and appalled by the laughing posture and insensitivity of these two men who call themselves pastors. Where is your empathy, sympathy and sensitivity to these victims who suffered at the hands of Bill's egregious sexual acts??? I envision Jesus weeping for his sheep and angered at the "Bill's" of today's church culture. Imagine if the victim was your wife or your daughter!?! I would hope at that point, you would actually take the sexual allegations seriously and have compassion toward them, instead of protecting the perpetrator himself and the institution. Shame on you Dave Dummitt and Shawn Williams. Since you both are pastors, its important for you to know this: The power of a pastor/parishioner relationship holds true to that of a doctor/patient, a lawyer/client, a teacher/student and a therapist/client. When these professionals sexually abuse their patients/clients/parishioners, it's considered a heinous crime. My husband is also a pastor and he is held to these standards. Bill committed a crime. God's justice and vengeance will be far worst than anyone can dream of and Bill will have to answer to God.
This is an outrage
I used to go here as a teen , only recently I wanted to go back not knowing what has happened. It’s sad to see that the new church leadership still has not chose to back up the victims and hold their leaders accountable. Especially since bill will “take it to the grave” .
Good grief. Can you talk about Bill being unrepentant? Shame on you. Jesus would call him out. Pathetic leadership.
The interesting question is, why didn’t Jesus call him out? Why didn’t he do the Matthew 18 thing? Seems to me, if one really sits with this question, there would be some shocking inferences one might have to face.
If they question Hybels too deeply, they'll have to question Hybel's legacy, which means they'd have to question their church, themselves, and how they do things and have encouraged the church at large on how they should do things. Better in their minds to hurry up and put it all behind them so they get on with redoing the same mistakes Hybels made.
I would like to know what kind of fruit Hybels produced!
Here's the fruit: julieroys.com/albert-tate-leave-inappropriate-text-comments/
So disappointing and, in my view Ill-judged. As a fellow leader I would want to coach the new leadership:
- start with the victims
- lament and repent
- Act justly, love mercy and
Walk humbly.
@@lijlee3605 my sense on listening to the video was that this was not acknowledged by the leaders. The style and tone did not come across to me (albeit I am from a UK culture) as contrite, humble or respectful to those who have been wronged. If anything, the discourse was backward looking...
@@lijlee3605 In fact, none of it has been done.
Bill has a shadow side? A broken tree? Please Stop now! ..... I remember when Willow tried to move Bill’s sins along pretty quickly by singing Frozen’s “let it go” to the congregation:(.
#CanConfirm
@@benjaminady oh my gosh please elaborate. Wtf?!
That’s terrible
Who are you and I doubt that even happened. Making things up now just to throw more gasoline on an existing fire? Christian?
😳
It's stories like this and the fallout and the utter confusion and pain and things left undone that I think point to the fact that there just might not be a god above who really does care about the organization he created or humanity at all. At best, I think he walked away just like Bill after spinning up the cosmos.
Ouch. He's causing more needless pain here.
Why is Willow Creek still going? Willow Creek is the Bill Hybell version of Christianity but Bill Hybell admitted that his Seeker' friendlyism had failed and then it later came out that he had been a womanizer for decades if the accusations are to be believed.
The link to hear the full meeting is no longer available. Does anybody have it? My church is going through something similar. It’ll be very helpful. Thank you!
Hey time2pray. I do have it. But I don't think there's anything else in there that would necessarily be of use to you. The rest of it's not related to this thing at all. I'm so sorry your own church is also engaging in institutional betrayal of victims =*(
Ok, thanks for your reply back. We are having a town hall tomorrow with the board of directors, I know we as leaders are not happy with how things are being done. Was your townhall contentious?@@benjaminady
@@time2pray777 Oh. You are at a very different point in the process. The meeting from which this video is taken happened a full 3 years after the decades of clergy sexual abuse had become public knowledge. I hope you and others who are facing the current initial brutal onslaught of lies, cover-up, minimisation, institutional cowardice will definitely take video of the entire town hall tomorrow, and publish it, to let it stand as a public record of the current ongoing horrors there. Because the folks running things are most likely to try to keep the town hall contents secret/covered-up.
@@benjaminady you are absolutely right! Thank you!
@@time2pray777 as a practical note, if you you've not done it before, do a little practice before hand to make sure your device has enough storage to capture the entire length of the thing on video, and also taking video can be battery-use intensive, so if you have or can purchase a back-up battery pack to keep your phone charged while taking video, that can be useful.
I’m dumbfounded the lead pastor doesn’t know the most important landmine to avoid is the one where he devalues the pain and devastation suffered by the women Bill victimized. Is this a SNL skit?
Sinning against God? Oh, that's fine...just don't sin against the visionary leader! (Check Elliot Nesch's documentary Church Of Tares at the 42 min mark). That whole documentary, though it's slightly dated now...is totally worth watching.
So where is Bill Hybels now?
At home, playing the victim, refusing to apologize.
Hardly “at home”. Just a cursory peek at family members’ socials and reading between the lines, and you’ll get the picture of, “well, he is still my dad and I still love and respect him”, so let’s jet set to yet another international, Uber-luxurious vacation, long stay at a beach house, a sunset boat ride. He has zero remorse.
Shawn Williams: "I’ve talked to... [a variety of people groups]...And so talking about just the wide wide perspective that gets around here and everybody has very emotional opinions as it relates to it." Apparently, Shawn has not talked to any people whose lives were destroyed. But see how happy, smiley and glib he is giving unqualified advice about who and what destroyed them?
Dave Dummit: "Just get over it."
How many parts extremely stupid & lacking awareness, & how many parts opportunistic brand-building marketers?
How blind can you possibly be? You guys drank too much of the Kool-Aid. Shame on you.
You guys should find other things to talk about. You know nothing about Willow of the 70's, 80's, 90's. How this is the only comment you are going to make about the past.
I guess we could talk about the other sexual predator co-founders, perhaps?
It’s this type of stupidity and reckless talk that continues to drive people away from the church. The spines of maple syrup on display here.
Here, I'm starting to understand, why God puts a lot of imprecatory Psalms in his hymn book. We are not to take matters in our hands, becoming bitter or take vengeance (this doesn't mean we don't take justice: like reporting to the police), but ultimately God will execute justice at his time. We should not be a church that say: "Yeah it's bad, but look at the fruit", but rather we should put sackcloth and dust in our heads and cry out for mercy. Sadly, this is a rare thing for the church to do. God help us. God help me. We are truly sinners.
Posited: Belief in post-death justice actively operates against pursuit of here/now justice.
Broken tree can bear a lot of bad fruits! BAD is the word you omit intentionally.
Thank you for saying this! These two are a shit show.
We are All sinners. God will breathe life into the truly humble & repentant. Scripture talks a lot about humility. I maybe like many others, came to Willow in 1976, first attending Son City. It changed the entire course of my life as a senior in high school. Don Cousins led me to that point in my life with his amazing and truthful teachings. I still regard him as the greatest teacher I have ever listened to because he made the Gospel simple to understand. But in the case with Bill, who also, was a great speaker, relies on and trusts more in his own self and accomplishments and whose names he could throw around, you begin to lose track of the message of Christ. Jesus gives us 100% grace AND 100% truth.... but we humans think we can skate on the 100% truth piece ourselves. Willow, at one time, played a Huge roll in the Christian community. Then pride got in the way. God will not be mocked. I owe a lot to Willow, but I must let Jesus be the author & finisher of my faith... not some organization. Tried to say this w/o judgement, just some facts.
Don Cousins learned decades ago that Bill Hybels was a sexual predator, and he utterly failed to protect the flock, thereby causing incalculable harm to who knows how many further women.
@@benjaminady
That's a very strong accusation without proof.
Have you personally asked Don Cousins about that? Or did someone imply that?
@@freedom7880 Hi Freedom7880. As reported in the New York Times. web.archive.org/web/20180806081555/www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/us/bill-hybels-willow-creek-pat-baranowski.html
@@freedom7880 you're just another Idol worshipper
Wow. What a bunch of weak answer. As a man...I actually feel like these two men dishonoured men and certainly reminder all women that it is in fact not safe for you under their leadership.
This is is a complete disregard of the abuse that Bill Hybels caused to the victims. And not even referencing the Bible at all. While it is true that God can use broken sinners for His glory that does not mean that pastors can dismiss the sin, which is exactly what these two did. Yes, God used David, Abraham, Moses who all did horrible sins but He also rebuked them and they repented. Bill Hybels is still in denial of his sins and has not publicly repented which he needs to do. Comparing Rick Warren's situation who was dealing with grief from his son's passing and battle with mental illness to Hybel's sexual predatory behavior is WRONG!
Brought to you by Dr. Pepper…
Fascinatingly, the person I'm not naming here is also a fan of Dr. Pepper.
Dr. Pepper should disavow them.
From an insider, we could not say Dr. B.
That's right - WOW Shawn! Let's not be bashful, you just hit a big landmine!!! Think before you trigger. No empathy for the victims.
Gee, maybe the incredible things that happened to Willow, maybe they weren't really 'GOOD' things. Yeah the marketing and money and market share was there. That has NOTHING to do with God. Jack Welsh had that at GE, too. Big deal.
@@lijlee3605 but that doesn't mean it was good.
@@lij8735 you think Willow Creek led to the refocus of Christianity around the world? Really. You need to get out of the suburbs.
I was a part of that church Almost from the beginning. 1976. The good things were the small things. The small groups, the creative ways to tell the story, the people who helped each other. The good things eventually got done on a larger scale. The cars fixed up and given away to struggling single moms, along with a year’s worth of car insurance and gas vouchers, the ministry where people raised little house plants to give away to people in the hospital., the food pantry that is more like a regular grocery store rather than a food pantry. The fact that when the pantry needed to be restocked, Willow people didn’t just bring a can. Bill was the one who suggested that people who could afford it do more. And so they bring whole bags of groceries. They’d put a couple of full grocery bags out by their cars, and vans and pickups would drive around the parking lot and pick them up for the food pantry while the service was going on. I fully believe the women Hybels violated. I actually know some of them. I hate what he did. It was wrong, it was terrible. He needed to be accused, found guilty and should have been fired. But I think what makes this so difficult and painful was the fact that he did inspire a lot of good. The cognitive dissonance is insane.
@@kjmav10135 None of that stuff you mentioned requires a multimillion dollar campus, the hubris of satellite locations, the hubris of a publishing empire, the hubris of a 'LEADERSHIP SUMMIT', or a cost structure that allows the leader to have multiple sailboats, a jet, multiple homes. In fact, big deal to most of that stuff you listed. BIG DEAL.
@@chadhartsees Again, he shouldn’t have done what he did. What he did was absolutely terrible. I believe the women. The place grew, at the beginning, because people were actually getting help there. There are good, good people at Willow. The cognitive dissonance is insane. You seem like one of those black and white kind of thinkers who cannot deal with ambiguity. Hybels was warped. The church he founded made some terrible decisions as they handled this. True. Loads of people got physical help from Willow. I am just stating that the congregation was dealing with, and continues to deal with cognitive dissonance. It takes a certain amount of emotional maturity to get beyond a hamhanded response and grasp this. Let me be clear, though: Hybels does not deserve to be lionised. His congregation and its leadership are all left wounded, and are still attempting to deal with his falseness. This could have happened (and has often happened) in a church of 50 people, let alone 50,000. The cognitive dissonance would be the same.
This is spot on. So many want to cling to one extreme or the other, especially in today's culture. I have seen incredible fruit from Willow over 35+ years there. Yet Bill also was very flawed and hurt others.
Bill Hybels was a wolf in shepherd's clothing. Teachers are held to a higher standard are are supposed to be publicly rebuked. 1 Timothy 5:20
Cling to extremes?? It's not "extreme" to declare the FACT that Bill Hybels groomed, manipulated, sexually abused, and then gaslit a dozen women, baldfaced lied about it to his congregation, never repented, then ran away to sail off into the sunset with a cushy retirement fund. Are you mad?!
Yuck 🤮. This is pathetic.
What clowns...
The entire congregation in the elders ignored and then attacked Vonda, and it wasn't until your hypocrite Pastor resigned that the church apologized to the victims. Too late every single one of you is under judgment by God. You think you're covered by grace,? Yeah you do but you're not
I'm waiting for them to give God glory for giving any good fruit despite (not because of) a pastor-wolf that fed on his flock. Hybels' own, personal-that he bore-, fruit was abuse.
This makes me sick. Way to drag the women through more trauma.
That's the Willow way! Praise the predator and disregard the victims - so it continues.
Barf. Barf. Barf.
Such politician... Makes me sick!
Cannot believe how far from Jesus these people are. It's not about the organization or telling a story about another pastor's life to spin the story. Sorry New Guy, please spend some tine in the secret place and wait and listen to our Lord.
That’s been the problem…admiring people who grew a church by sinful gimmicks!