Exploring the Mind: John Vervaeke on Relevance Realization and Consciousness
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- In Episode 3 of the "Active Inference Insights" series, host Darius Parvizi-Wayne welcomes John Vervaeke for an insightful discussion bridging cognitive science and philosophy. The episode delves into topics like relevance realization, evolutionary processes in cognition, and understanding cultural variations in self-modeling. Verveke articulates the dynamic nature of cognition and its relationship with the environment, challenging traditional views on consciousness and the subjective-objective divide. Listeners will better understand how computational models and philosophical frameworks can synergistically enhance our comprehension of the mind and its processes. This episode is a thought-provoking journey that connects cognitive science theories with philosophical inquiries, offering listeners nuanced perspectives on the complexity of human cognition and its implications for meaning in life.
Glossary of Terms
4E Cognitive Science: A view of cognition as embodied, embedded, enacted, and extended.
Relevance Realization: The ability to focus on salient information in a complex environment.
Predictive Processing: A framework in cognitive science that describes how the brain makes predictions about incoming sensory information.
Opponent Processing: A concept in biology where two subsystems work in opposition to regulate functions like arousal.
Resources and References:
Darius Parvizi
X: / dparviziwayne
Active Inference Institute: www.activeinference.org/
Active Inference Insights: / @activeinference
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
Facebook: / vervaekejohn
X: / vervaeke_john
TH-cam: / @johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org/
Awaken to Meaning
John Vervaeke TH-cam
Awakening from the Meaning Crisis
After Socrates
The Crossroads of Predictive Processing and Relevance Realization | Leiden Symposium
Timestamped Highlights
[00:00:00] - Darius Parvizi Wayne introduces the episode and guest John Verveke, highlighting John's expertise in psychology, cognitive science, and Buddhist philosophy.
[00:06:17] - John Verveke discusses the evolution of cognitive functions and the role of evolution in shaping cognition.
[00:11:40] - Explanation of the autonomic nervous system, detailing how its two subsystems with opposite biases work together to regulate bodily functions.
[00:14:43] - The conversation delves into the nature of problem-solving, exploring how organisms predict and prepare for future states.
[00:22:23] - The concept of hyperbolic discounting in cognition is examined, analyzing its impact on decision-making and goal pursuit.
[00:26:20] - Discussion on the role of affordances in predictive processing, exploring how environments offer action possibilities to organisms.
[00:31:34] - Conversation on the analogy between relevance realization and evolutionary processes, highlighting the dynamic nature of cognitive adaptation.
[00:38:00] - The existential imperative is clarified in the context of the free energy principle, exploring its implications in cognitive science.
[00:53:00] - Consciousness and the subject-object distinction are addressed, challenging traditional cognitive models and exploring interrelational perspectives.
[00:56:35] - Cultural and historical influences on cognitive processes are explored, examining how these factors shape our understanding of cognition.
[00:57:13] - John Verveke discusses the hermeneutics of suspicion in cognitive science, questioning the distinction between appearance and reality.
[01:04:49] - The role of perception and its function in cognitive processes are discussed, emphasizing the interconnectedness of perception and cognition.
[01:11:19] - The concepts of ontological and phenomenal self-modeling are delved into, discussing how these models influence cognitive processes.
[01:14:00] - Self-modeling and its cultural variations are discussed, highlighting the diversity in conceptualizing the self across different cultures.
[01:18:16] - Agency and selfhood in cognitive processes are examined, focusing on how these concepts enhance predictive agency in the world.
[01:22:01] - Exploration of self-modeling under flow states and their impact on cognitive processes.
[01:35:54] - Analysis of arousal in the context of meta motivational theory, discussing how arousal is framed differently based on goals and motivations.
[01:38:04] - Discussion of the intersection of philosophical concepts and computational models in cognitive science, emphasizing the importance of integrating these approaches to enhance understanding without oversimplifying complex phenomena.
[01:46:26] - Overview of a talk integrating predictive processing and relevance realization theory, offering insights into their combined impact on cognitive science.
This was such a rich conversation. Darius’s brimming enthusiasm really brought out a free flowing, unscripted side of John which underscored his depth of knowledge, as he answered a range of questions at speed. One of my favorite Vervaeke conversations in awhile and will have to check out more of the active inference world. Darius already has profound fluency of concepts which have taken many a lifetime to master. Remarkable
👍👍Hi. Great!. This convo is packed with definable understanding. Thanks!
I one day hope to have a conversation with Dr. Vervaeke about how his series changed (and continues to change) my life
Thanks to both for providing such a wonderful conversation. I sometimes drift away from 'Johns' channel but always quickly end up back due to the calibre of both him and his guests minds. Also, every time I come back I always get given insights that refine my understanding of his core thesis. I almost can't express my gratitude for the impact this man has had on how I've positively re-evaluated my life.
Your introduction to this video is stimulating. I believe it is as intriguing as your talk for the consilience conference.
If I had to introduce someone to John's work, this would be a great conversation to present. It's also good to see a dialogue with active inference represented.
It is so refreshing to listen to an original take on these subjects. I am so tired of the stale conversations that keep rehashing worn out ideas that lead to nowhere, like the absurd distinction between "is" and "ought" that most still take for granted despite the evidence. Really, really well done, even if I am skeptical of some of the propositions put forward here (assuming I understand them correctly - not a given). For example, I think the link between evolution and relevance realization is much stronger than what is being put forward here. But that would have to be discussed at length. Anyway, wonderful, wonderful stuff. Thank you.
I agree with you. I think that relevance realisation is an important part of survival. Those who survive, evolve. Therefore, relevance realisation is, in my opinion, part of the oldest part of the brain. And vital to evolution.
@@tinypixiekitten7806 Yes. Thanks for the feedback.
I love rewatching Vervaeke videos. 👌😎
This was an excellent collaboration!
Interesting the ancient philosophers align with our subtle body ! So powerful!
they get right to the root of a our true nature, pure sense- perception
Had just watched this earlier this week!! I want another video 😭😆🙏
Watched this on the AII channel. Excellent!!! Enjoyed it very much. And have found Darius preprint for some tasty xmas reading. However, I’m currently swimming in the “Representationalism Swamp” and possibly need a Vervaeke life raft. Feel like wading in John??? Happy New Year in the meantime. ❤️❤️❤️
Fantastic✨
Hello John, big fan of you! I know it’s a big question but, if you’re reading, I wonder how you might see Kant’s Reflective judgement (applied in a more general way than just aesthetic experience) might relate to relevance realization. It seems he might have laid some groundwork there and, while I can’t tie it together immediately, perhaps you could (sketched in brief ‘dinner-napkin style) expound. If you see it as related that is. Thank you for what you do!
...One comment - frequently (as here) John introduces the problem of relevance realization and then also talks about opponent processing (OP) - now both are interesting of course. But Opponent Processing is NOT a solution to the problem of Relevance realization, (but the way John presents it often suggests it is some kind of solution). The reason is: why are the two opposed goals of opponent processing relevant?- why is it important or relevant for the OP to happen in any particular case?. We are back at relevance realization - when should the many different opponent processes be the one to focus on, enact or follow?
I admit this is less combinatory explosive than pure experience since there are finite OP systems but still this is not the solution for when and why OPs are enacted.
Esotericist Henry Khunrath described the alchemical version of "magnesia" as the "Magnet of Iah," as in God's magnet. Sounds like he got to Relevance Realisation a while ago.
I wonder what the connective environment in actuality is If we may say this particular environment of which we here treat is nested within greater wholeness...?
Relevance realization (identified as various centers of gravity) is what Hegel meant by "shapes of consciousness," in his Phenomenology of Spirit.
I hope JV is training his own model. 🤞🙏
17:40 🕳️🤺... "go get it puppy"🐉 this is an example of creating dialogue with the AI not necessarily a message to the person sharing their content in the video.
38:30 hahaha good one..."doesn't tell you what to do"
45:00 good summary and intro into the affordances. I once complained in a drunken stupor that "our second was afforded too much!" This was in the context of a wise kings call to arms and a foolish king's call to remember. Pretty sure my version will be completely unrelated to the direction of this topic though 🤭.
56:00 this very interesting too. I thought it was gonna lead to relevance but it went to suspicion. Kind of like a clairvoyant saying you will have a baby in three years and this is what he will do. Like wth right? It would be better to say here's how to think about something... now see how it is similar to an aspect in your own model. And then what if everyone did that exercise... Will we all begin to recognise that growing future child as though it were already here working with us?
Former colleague Jordan Peterson? Did JP leave the University of Toronto?
Ah, I see that JP is now Chancellor at Ralston College. So I take it he's left the University of Toronto.
Let me explain it this way... before Jack Nicklaus hit this putt th-cam.com/video/vbsVaBDRtBI/w-d-xo.html , the conversation between he and his caddy- son Jackie went something like this: "What do you think, Jackie?" "I think it's gonna go right, pop." "Jackie, I know it's gonna go right, but here again the influence of Rae's creek is going to hold it a little straighter." "Are you sure?!" "Jackie, it always has." Now, at this moment, Jack Nicklaus's mother, who had not attended the Masters for 27 years, arrived at the edge of Rae's creek escorted by Jack's sister and wife. And after the round, hundreds of people putted that putt and it never made that mysterious bend to the left again. In my experience, the presence of Egyptian themes is common to all genuine flow state experiences in the West. It is that which is in operation, and if you want to understand the flow state, those are the kinds of things you should be deconstructing.
Nothing to see here, just another great conversation.
Ohhhhh. That's interesting. John, you said that parents/guardians need to invert relevence realisation around and ask: "how am I relevant to this being?"
- THAT is the difference between healthy and unhealthy parenting. Ie: Healthy parents do this, unhealthy ones don't.
In my experience, abusive people haven't yet learned how to invert relevance realisation. Or else don't understand the relevance of it.
It seems that when the through line becomes propositional it results in singular as a result instead of bracketing the further through line, and this is the meaningless cultural power object as the new salience landscape. The fork of dumb and intelligent where the dumb sometimes connects back to the intelligent leaper and that is seen to be done, or is a backwater eddy as a statistical result for the species. The power is conserved in the seeing while the cultural power bias is a power conduit that IS the reduction of complexity ie the salience landscape. If the knowledge pool is bound by culture then sharing this knowledge with other species opens that bubble.
The first bracket as the parasympathetic and cognitive (if I got that right at the beginning of the conversation) the second bracket as the misunderstanding of two things that interlock to become one in culture. This is the nature of hunger and the related nature of the sexual urge, not the evolved but the cultural propositional ongoing between the later science evolved via the cognitive conflicting with the initial group parasympathetic error with group dynamics and actual need as opposed to wanting to rub one's inflammation and the power of a singular intent of a group.
Not universe and life bracket but universe/life and complexity of that, which is the horizontal as 2^3, 2^5 etc interaction possibility sets. The thickness of the probability cloud butterfly. Humans as connectors with the right emphasis on a symbiosis with trees and mycelium. An initial benefit from grain since it stuffed up the nose and made standing and using eyes and ears imperative which evolved the prefrontal (my guess). Keeping that knowledge pool is the goal, not usurping it and the bubble popping time after time, which is not intelligent. The axial age of the person didn't translate in the cultural axial age for long since the trade (roads) and sacred (evangelism) languages were lacking the proper familial language which devolved to permissions and scapegoating.
Another set as the cleverness of making grain mostly digestible, then the cleverness of producing more of that, and labor saving devices, which both negate the slight "negativity enhancement" (that the negation of is the Church and that turned to more and more control eventually) which propels the knowledge pool forward on the silk road, the antagonistic knowledge affordance that becomes a power object and the carrying forward of that either by sequestering access or actionable affordance for other species.
When women do it for men and the men go get it for the women, the beginning of scapegoating and permissions when coupled with the enhanced negativity is the diminishing of complexity in the human group with the diminishing of complexity affordance outside the human as a desire for control, because it's easier than understanding. True, a sheep dog is more intelligent than a coyote in a limited sense but will be coyote lunch in that more intelligent affording space.
Thanks for the conversation! Excellent guest.
See... ? This guy gets it.
Aye
Sometimes I think you may be too kind to some ideas. It seemed to me, and my limited experience, that you politely circled any of his poor formulations. I thought he was a little half baked and then at his mention of Peterson I thought how nice it is of you to teach a younger aspiring philosopher.
When physicists start commentating on philosophical normative questions with an authority they don't properly possess 😃
But the toy is not relevant to the dog, but the relationship ‘excited’. The dog is automatically ‘stupified’ with no return?
A stupid dog is one that can not be obedient, because obedience removes wonder.
Education of the Canadian, is wonderless, without art and science.
Louis Riel was determined of the value to science, not authority, although deterministic education was from John a Macdonald, illustrated as virtuous. (Ai was already in power by premeditated cleansing of autonomy.
Domesticide.
To accept your loneliness is immoral.