What's Inside A Brushed Motor? RC Motor Terms Explained - Holmes Hobbies RC Basics Series
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- Holmes Hobbies is a great spot for not only some of the best electronic products in RC, but also a great spot to learn about RC. John Holmes of Holmes Hobbies is committed to helping RC enthusiasts on their journey and has decided to create an RC Basics Series to help you know everything you need to know about RC electronics. This video here will help you learn and understand the components that make up a brushed motor. Do terms like armature, winds, hoods and endbell confuse or scare you? After this video you’ll know and be able to talk about brushed motor components like a pro.
Want more RC Basics type videos? Let us know the topic in the comments!
PRODUCTS MENTIONED
Holmes Hobbies Motors: bit.ly/2FJNrHs
See More Electronics Videos:
• RC Electronics (Review...
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TH-cam: / holmeshobbies
Website: HolmesHobbies.com/
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The Crawlmaster Pro is so silky smooth, and yet still has more torque and a better drag brake than I expected.
Wow, great video John!
Thank you sir!
OMG you had the shirt made..... I can't handle you LMAO😂🤣
EXTREME SCALE PERFORMANCE RC
Hey Josh.
I was laughing about the shirt too.
Oh...just watched your Jeep vs Winch Hill. Love it.
Tom(Tommad on facebook).
The owner actually stopped by and gave it to me :)
Do you have a video that explains the difference in turns? I appreciated your clear explanation of the difference in the torque and crawlmaster, interesting.
John, that is the BIGGEST Wiha screwdriver I have ever seen! I have the full line of flat/phillips, torx, allen and nut driver WiHa's. Love 'em, not the best for torquing RC stuff, but it makes us stronger.
Thank you for bringing back the Casio calculator watch. That was the IN thing for us geeks back in the early 90's. It was like the next iteration of the pocket protector.
I'd like to see you do a video where you unleash all the electromagnetic and mechanical engineering knowledge that you have that goes into these motors and ESCs.
I'm trying to unleash it all, just in smaller vids that is easier to follow. Much of the design work is kinda boring. Either brute force prototyping with a variety of layouts, or letting FEMM munch away at the variations to narrow down a starting point.
Awesome vids man keep it up. Ordering one of your motors tomorrow super pumped
awesome, thanks!
Most enthusiastic video introduction in RC haha, and that shirt!
That was actually an outtake that my editor decided to make the intro. Too late to take it back now!
Another great video! I always find them helpful and enjoy them. If only we had TH-cam in the 80s!
Thank you sir!
Hey John happy holidays and thanks for the education I have come to really appreciate knowing about the quality of the products I trust ..use ..and recommend your product line is for those of us who want nothing but the best✌
Thanks Joe!
Here I am in 2024 🤣. Retro sport motors are great. Really the only motors I run on my kits, other than Mabuchi. I’m old school and love the sound and feel of a brushed motor. Also great customer service from this company 👍
Right on
I love this video thank you
Great video bro appreciate the tips
Glad you like it
Hi John. These are great videos, thanks for making them. I actually came to your channel looking for an explanation of brushless motors for my 12th scale pan car. I race these in the UK, on carpet. I am curious to find out about how I should set my motor in terms of timing, and gearing. You mention these topics, in your other videos, obviously in the context of your preferred crawler class vehicles. You also talk about the batteries and their C rating. I would certainly find it useful and I suspect others would too, whether into crawlers or any other RC hobby of what considerations you would make in determining these things. In the battery vid, you mention that if you raced and needed to be going 30-40kmph for 7 mins (I think) that you would need a higher discharge (C) battery than if just going trial running for an hour plus. I wonder if you could make a video that covers these things, in general, so I hear, torque, power, Kv (or back EMF), rpm, amp draw, esc heat. I'd love to know how it all fits together. For example, I use a Hobbywing Xerun-v10-13.5t brushless motor (30401103) with 1s 3.7v lipo battery, 8000mah, 100c. The ESC is a Hobbywing XR10 Pro 1s 120a. Typical runtimes are 4-6 minutes at full throttle. I have no idea how to gear it optimally, or get the best performance out of the motor. No idea either why the ESC needs to be 120a. I do have a Motolyser motor tester which gives me Kv, rpm, sensor deviation, magnet asymmetry and amps per phase. However I don't really know how to make the most of this information. Could you help?
Love the shirt. Lol Thank you
got the info in your tutorial there is no issue with reversing wires to terminals- I'm guessing No damage will occur if I accidently hook up both to Neg or both to Pos- Kyosho I have has like 4 terminals.
Nice information.
Can you do a comparission against a trailsmaster pro and a brood apocalypse...thanks
I'm assuming you mean TorqueMaster Pro. He uses laydown brushes which give a little more wheelspeed, I use standup brushes for better efficiency and longer motor life. He drill balances for lower cost, I use epoxy balancing for smoother and more consistent startup, higher stall torque, and better efficiency. Otherwise, our construction techniques are similar. We use the same size wire, braze the comm, resin dip the arms, dynamically balance, break them in, etc...
Thanks for the video JRH. anyone noticed the gold plated magnets in the puller motor? Plus @ 6:58 you get to see the built in/ fixed timing ring.
That's something I was really looking forward to seeing. So I didn't have to teardown my new puller motors right away.
If you ever have time a video on timing a puller motor would be awesome.
I understand how to time a 540 motor with 6 degrees of timing. However I'm under the impression timing of a puller motor is done off of lowest amp draw.
Not just simply figuring out forward rotation and turning end bell opposite direction 6°.
Or can I time my puller 500's with 6 degrees of timing without any bad effects?
Again thanks for taking the time a making these videos.
gold plated for maximum corrosion resistance! And it's the Puller motors, there is no reason to not spend a little more and make them bling on the inside.
G'day have u a vid on setting up the motor i have upgrade from a standard 540 21t to a 550 27t for a 1/10 drifter it doesn't seem right could my motor be too hard up on maybe I do need to over gear a little to get the setup im trying to achive sorry for the long comment
I dig the dab tool 😂
It's 2022, most people have moved to brushless.. I still use a Crawlmaster Pro has nothing seems to have the same feel as a quality handwound brushed motor from John Holmes.
Merry Christmas. Fantastic video. Are the Holmes Hobbies motors on Asiatees genuine Holmes Hobbies motors ? I'm in England if you could suggest the best place to buy a CrawlMaster Pro?
They are genuine. That would be a good place to buy from England to avoid high tariffs.
John Holmes, you've got my interest in building my own motors. I just can't shake it off my head now, but I can't find the parts! Have you ever thought about selling non assembled motors?
Merry Christmas to you and your Family, John!! 🎅🎄
I really enjoy these Refreshers. I've been in Model Railroading for at least 10 years longer than I've been in RC (or 47 Years!) .
Maybe it's because Model Railroading originated in Europe.... But the Motors are always classified as "Poles". Oddly, the number of Turns are rarely mentioned! 😱
Obviously in RC, Turns are the Main selling point.
Now, one point that you barely skimmed over, your top Brushed Motors, 3 and 5 Slot, BOTH have *Skewed Armatures,* which has quite an advantage all their own.....
Back to Model Railroading, when I started (when NIXON was still in Office!!!) 😆😊, the majority of Motors had 3 Poles (Slots). Also had weak Iron Magnets and Bronze Bushings. They started from a stop like a Model T with a fouled Plug!!
By the 80's, 5 Slot became the Norm. Starts got smoother, but still not great.
In the 90's, we finally got 5 Pole, Skewed Armature Motors, Rare-Earth Magnets, and full Bearings.
Where the best we could do for minimum Speed was 5 to 20 SMPH (Scale Miles per Hour), in the 70's.... We now have smooth as Silk starts, with a minimum sustained speed of 0.3 SMPH or BETTER!!!!
MOST of that was attributed to the Skewed Armature! German Company, Märklin, was fitting *7 Slot, Skewed Armature Motors,* and the performance was breath taking!!
Maybe most RC Guys don't need to know, but Skewed Armatures are considerably smoother at extremely slow speeds. Why? Because of the placement of the individual Armature Plates, there's virtually NO gap between each Slot, as the Armature spins. Due to that, any slight cogging between Comm pulses, is almost completely eliminated!! 😎👍👍
Think of the Low Speed Resolution, if all your Hand Wounds has Skewed Armatures... The Performance would be World Leading in the RC Biz!!!
Carmine 💥 ⛽
OH, I've been meaning to ask....... I've had amazing Service from my HH 30 Turn, Handwound, for over four Years!
I was wondering.... Instead of rebuilding one more time, or COULD I replace the whole Armature Assembly for one of your *5 Slot Armatures??* Would I also have to replace the Endbells and Brushes too?
I'd appreciate it!
Carmine
I put the skewed armatures into the Custom Pro and the Puller motors, but not the standard ones. It is harder to wind, so we put the normal ones into the standard 540 motors to hit the right price point and let people be used to "normal" before trying skewed arms. It isn't always a guarantee of smoother startups, the magnetics have to be correct for the skew pitch. A full pole pitch skew will normally result in smoother starts, but it also affects the efficiency to a large degree. My armatures are much lower than a full pitch skew with matching magnetics, for a smooth start that isn't so aggressive that efficiency takes a bit hit.
You can drop any 500 puller or 540 armature into your motor with no changes to the parts. Crawlmaster is standard. Puller 500 Crawl type is the skewed version with more copper.
Thanks John! All my gobblygook above was more for the benefit of People who don't quite understand the concept....
Explaining Skewed Armatures to YOU, would be akin to trying to explain Aerodynamics to my Father - an Aeronautical Engineer and former SR71 Pilot!!! 😱😎
Also Thanks for your help with my Motor!! I'm going to try and keep that 30 Turn Motor forever, at least the outer shell. It's easily my favorite piece of RC equipment!!!
Is there a video which explains the relation to single, double and even triple wound motors in RPM and torque ?
I love the enthusiasm in the beginning!!! lmao
That wasn't supposed to make the cut, but I trusted the editors judgement...
@@HolmesHobbies it was the best part! We'll miss you at USTE... :(
Yes, John, I have more questions. My father built field & armature-winding machines for Black & Decker back in the day, so I'm no stranger to electric motors. I'm curious about the number of turns - specifically, is the number in reference to the turns of wire on the field coils or the armature? Also, is it true that wire of variable thickness is used, and if so, why? One other thing; how can there be a '.5' to any number of turns?
If you can address any of these curiosities I would be most appreciative. -AL
Al, The turn count is a reference to how many turns on a "full pitch" of slots on the armature or stator. The field coil will be wound for the drive voltage, but it rarely if ever referenced. The turn count is specifically on a "full pitch" slot span. This is the number of slots divided by the poles, and then reduced to the nearest whole number. So a 5 slot 2 pole motor would be 2.5 slots for full pitch, but we drop down to 2 slots for a full pitch that is physically possible to wind. Distributed schemes like dLRK outrunners make this more complicated, as the winds are distributed onto two slots in an electrically equivalent circuit to concentrated winds. So although it may be 10 turns per slot, they are electrically considered 20 turns since a 20 turn concentrated winding will result in the same speed of motor.
Different thicknesses of copper wire can be used. Thicker is always better in terms of motor performance. Thinner is always better in terms of cost and ease of construction. I typically wind our "normal" brushed motors with a half gauge thinner than the max possible. This allows us to have a normal price point, and a higher price point "custom pro" and "Puller" variant.
Half turns can be done in a few ways. Most typically on two pole motors, a wye termination is made on the opposite side of the stator as defined by the start of the coil. In higher slot count motors such as 4 pole 12 slot, this can be done with distributed patterns or simply using the opposite side of the stator for flyers that connect coils together.
Thank you very much for your time. This is good food for thought and explains a lot.
Talk about what different turns and what effect that has on performance
Always love the tech stuff John.
Was the bigger rotors the 550-can ones?
I'm your big Revolver fan...I think I have 8 or 9 of those torque beast.
What kind of magnets do the Revolver's have? I know they will try and bite you when putting them back together.
Merry Christmas buddy.
Tom(Tommad on facebook).
The big rotor is the "magnum" series. We have them in crawlmaster and torquemaster variant. I would need to double check the revolver magnet grade. I typically spec N35EH, but we we went with a slightly stronger and lower temp rating since they get cooled better in an outrunner. N38SH or 40SH I think.
HolmesHobbies
Hi John.
The Neodymium magnets...the higher the number the stronger the pull , right? Does the magnet because more brittle the higher the number like a N35 vs N52(more brittle)?
Ever consider a longer can or stronger magnets on the Revolver like a N42 or higher?
Is a Neodymium stronger than a Cobalt magnet?
Thank you John.
Reason I ask is for more knowledge and I'm buying a Cross RC Mammoth 8x8 in the near future. I hear they are 30+ pounds.
Brittleness isn't really a factor. The higher the number, the stronger the pull. I used to make longer revolvers, but so few people used them and nobody reported better performance than the 540, they aren't seemingly useful. A 1000kv revolver should pull your rig just fine. Higher strength magnets can help in some ways, but more typically the motor will run hotter when they get too strong. It is typically better to have a lower strength grade with higher temp and tighter air gap. There is normally a balance that works best, which is why I lean to n35EH or n38EH on many products. Neodymium is stronger than Cobalt, and Cobalt is much heavier for the same volume. Cobalt isn't really a good magnet choice unless heat shedding is a large issue, like inside a torpedo.
HolmesHobbies Thank you so much John for the info and response. Great info.
is it OK to share this info on the fan-page?
For sure, share away
It's Holmes Hobbies channel... We need some advertising xD! I'd like to see video about your motors, whole product line - pros/cons/purpose/features.
I'm doing a "basics" series right now, we have 7 more to be released. After we get that done I will consider doing a series covering all of our motors as more of an 'advert" of them. Not a bad idea I suppose, thanks for the suggestion :)
Do I have to lathe the motor when I do a rebuild
What would be a good sensored waterproof speed control for a Leopard 3658 2200kv 4 pole motor. Off road, about 13 to 14 pound vehicle.
Mamba Monster X I suppose. Not much out there for that size of rig.
@@HolmesHobbies It's a big vehicle Steel frame, steel cage, 25 inches long. It has a 2 speed that feeds a 3 speed transfer case. It uses 4 battery packs. Hopefully I will be done with it soon. I have another one that is going to be around 22 to 23 pounds. It has homemade axles that weight 3 pounds each. I don't know which motor or trans yet???
Cool shirt
Does a skewed rotor run more efficiently in a particular direction?
Identical performance both directions
There are ways to do all sorts of differeng variable especially the way you wrap the wire espcially. If youre wrapping those armature poles with more than a single wire size simultaneouly 2 at a time. Or say first one then the next . or say one for a while then so l diers onto a different othere size ???
And Skewing the armature to eliminte the cogging effect ....
Will be explaining it all as soon az you ask.
We wind these ourself. You may be interested in other motor teardown vids that show skewed rotors and full pitch winding. th-cam.com/video/2P0FFJ4HnGI/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=HolmesHobbies
Wahoooo!.Like that shirt didn't give you some attitude. Didn't hurt to have a refresher on the brushed side of motors, still have a couple of them left..lol, and this from a guy that said he didn't see a need for brushless.
So a question comes to mind; with more torque will it drain the battery faster? Keeping all else the same or if using a rig that has more torque than necessary could have a lower drain rate than the 5 slot?
Happy Holiday's Mr. Holmes, sure that you will be snatching a few more dollars from my wallet this next year.
Technically, yes, a higher output torque motor can drain the battery faster. But if you aren't using all of the torque, it will depend on your driving and how the motor is different. A larger motor might have slightly higher no-load losses, which can reduce runtime if you are mostly putting around with no load. But maybe the motor is simply more efficient under load, and in this case you could actually have no reduction in runtime while getting more torque at the wheel.
The better scenario is (typically) to use a faster motor or a higher voltage and gear it down more. This nets a higher torque at the wheel without incurring more motor losses at low speed. It typically does not reduce runtime, but it (again) depends on how you drive.
@@HolmesHobbies guess we are catch 22 I suppose the inverse scenario would have opposite results. At least we have a starting point to build theories from for what we want for speed and torque till we are at our optimum desire. Thanks for the follow up reply. I just felt that going to a higher torque may effect mah requirements.
how can i use the screw connections on the motor?
What is the most popular brushed motor
Trailmaster sports, low cost and good quality.
whats the difference between...say a 19t single and a 19t double or triple?
Assuming all have equal wire fill. A single has lowest inductance and a triple has highest among the 3. A single will pull more inrush current and spool faster. With some configurations the triple can make more rpm and will have a higher rpm for peak power.
In a crawler, this is all very useless to change. We need efficient torque at low speed, and we don't use very low turn machine wound motors that could benefit from using a double to pack in more copper or have a better spot welded comm connection. We always use singles. Doubles etc are a leftover from racing days.
Holy crap your name is john Holmes?? Interesting
How about the turns? It has been 25 years since my last brushed motor..😁
They are in there! more turns is slower, less turns is faster. In my motors, running 3 cell lipo a 27t or 30t has the best torque density for a crawler. Running 4 cell the 35t is the optimum choice.
I mean how do you do/program the turns in a motor? 😁
We wind them by hand on the Pro motors. Use the proper wire gauge for the turns to fill up the armature with as much copper as possible.
Ah..that explains the turns..thx..👍🏻
THANK YOU JOHN HOLMES! Thanks to this vid, I was able to re-time my "Un-rebuildable" stock axial motor for another rig! Was able to correct the issue with reverse being faster than forwards!
How
@@nomusicrc I forget the specifics, but with a little finagling I got the brush holder off, and turned it, maybe an 1/8th inch.
Does john smoke? or is he oblivious to the fact that hes using a glass hot knife as a presentation pointer? hahah
That's a glass fish I made! A horsehead loach.
Hey know it all...
Its not a Rotor...
Its an Armature ......
Oh also did you know that when you wrap the Armature stacks , 0n a 3 pole like this , I encourage you to perform it in typical
5 five pole or stack
Winding (2)two stacks at a time until all stacks have been done..
Ill explain more as I go..
But Ill show you just contact me.
your showing me rotors that arent wrapped in copper that throws me off
the custom changes, are confusing. i want to know about more wire wrapping means more turns,
We wind many of our own motors. That is why they are blank.
wheres the part where he explains what turns are and how it effects performance. no one wants to sit through a 15 min video for 30 seconds of info.
Edit: hard to imagine, from the bit i know about motors, that the amount of copper (number of turns) doesnt effect torque. the way he explaining it he made it sound like the only way to get more torque is to either buy a larger diameter motor or a longer motor
hey big expert.
why dont you or at least talk about skewing the armature for reduction of the cogging effect ....
cmon show us what you know and tell us about it and why.???
talk about those armatures???
plus why using 2 wire sizes at the same time when rewinding ...
you know augment the wire size by using the guage desired then by augmenting slightly using a very very thin guage wire added to and with the initial guage you are using.
ie. say a 24 guage wire
coupled with say a 35 guage second wire to augment winding both wires around the armature poles simultaneously , plus skewing the armature
poles at the same time to mitigate cogging .
why ???
also why not wind those 3 pole armatures like a 5 pole wrapping 2 poles simultaneously
thus keeping the wire closer in to the shaft rather than out on each pole causing more drag.??
why???
seems like you might be concealing this knowledge from your viewers and potential customers.
why??
cmon share the real secrets.
like why not wrap the 5 pole armature like a 3 pole . each pole wound individually rather than 2 poles wooven together as is usual.
you know winding each pole helps eliminate the heat problem .
why dont you talk about timing advance by turning or rotating the Comutator ??
why??
seems some folks might need to know this knowledge while you sell them something they could have done themselves to enhance the performance of their
motors...
seems kinda strange to many of us out here whom know better???
John Holmes??
how ironic.
what a name indeed.
if you get the drift.
whos screwing what??
I'll address what's pertinent in crawling motors. Skewing can be used to reduce startup rpm , but it has to be done properly. It's not a silver bullet and can worsen startup and efficiency when done wrong.
For the rest of that information, it's wasted efforts in a crawler motor and not useful information in regards to the parts of a motor. Go ahead and make a video if you want to share old school racing tech , I'd love to see it!