I spent most of my time on my C64 using a terminal program, and GEOS. What an upgrade the C128 would have been for me! Especially since the terminal program I used had a bitmap graphic-based faux (and fuzzy!) 80 column mode. Ugh. An actual 80 column mode would have been a crazy upgrade! And GEOS 128 would have been a big upgrade too. Oh well… I was a kid buying electronics with my allowance, so a second-hand C64 it was!
I love to use the composite mode of my C128 on green monochrome screen, and it looks fantastic. I love the video and the short format. As a consumer of retro computers content, I don't mind short videos as long as they are interesting or convey passion.
I was c128's biggest fan, 25 years ago more or less i had c128 and c128d later, and i was fascinated with dual cpu and 3 OS features, i wanted to know everything and use it to the 100%. I even used cp/m for my diary writing :) Of course there was no internet and software & documentation was hard to come by and expensive (mostly pirated). I always dreamed of having 80 columns and use VDC for wordstar and dbase and cp/m, even after 25+ years i still have this a bit sad feeling, but your videos about c128 they are working therapeuticaly, thanks :) if i only knew about this cable... it is a big revelation for me, really :)
I didn't know that mode existed it until I found the cable in the bin and even then I wasn't sure if it was for a Tandy 1000 or not. YT comments got me sorted out quickly though!
Super cool to share for those that didn't know of this monochrome sol'n. It is exactly how I ran my 128 (with my 1702) with a cable I built myself to run GEOS 128 - this was super cool c. 1987/1988, and how I did my school work when I started college, basically like having an early Mac. 11:02 I love that you're rightly excited about this mode!
Nice, so yours was exactly the use case I envisioned. I really didn't know this existed until recently, but having that monochrome pin on the VDC was definitely a smart addition to the system. I wonder why it didn't gain wider acceptance since it seem like a great fit for most of the software you'd be using a 128 with anyway.
Ya, I didn't know anyone else with a 128; I don't recall how I learned about it. Maybe from Run magazine? That's probably where I learned most C= stuff. I wonder where the cable was available, pre-made c. 1987, if anywhere.
This is how we used our 128 for a few years before we got a color 80 column monitor. I made the cable out of spare parts I had kicking around. 80 column GeoWrite was such a killer app on the 128.
ZORK!!!!! a game that is most definitely in my top five Commodore games. When I bought my C128D a few months ago, because it had been my 3rd Commodore computer from 1988-1990 while stationed at Fort Polk LA (My 2nd was a SX-64 from 1986-1988 while serving in West Germany and I also reacquired at the same time as the C128D) I found on eBay and probably paid to much was a complete boxed Beyond Zork in great shape with everything that should of came with the game. This game would only work on C128 in 80 column mode and I think this was the first piece of software that I had bought for my C128D back in the 80's. Just to fill in the gap in the story, my 1st was a C64 for Xmas 1983 that I left at my Mom's during my six years in the U.S. Army. I still have it to this day still hooked up to my 1702 monitor and 1541 drive from the 80's all still sat up on the walnut computer desk that I built in 11th grade woodshop class.
@@retrobitstv It is incredibly useful. Since I keep the C128 mode in 2MHz/80 col. I use that switch every time I toggle between the C128 and C64 modes.
80 column for the C128 was a godsend back in the day. Paired with programs like Superscript 128, you had a word processor that was at least the equal and quite often superior to anything the PC or Mac worlds might throw at it. Clear, fast and easy to use. Thank you Commodore! And when you had finished working, you could switch to 64 mode for games.
Have personally a great full color solution myself with a 1084S-D1 monitor for my C128DCR and a RGB2HDMI for my C128D, but great video to show there is really no excuse left to use that 80 column VDC mode as such a cheap cable as in this video already gives so much benefit in monochrome 80 column use. Great video to spead the VDC love.
I can't believe I hadn't thought of that! Thank you so much for the tip! Definitely gonna make a cable for my 128, it's a bit of a hassle hooking up the cga2rgb and then connecting that up to my gbs8200 just to use 80 column mode since i share it with multiple other systems. I mostly use it for cp/m so color doesn't matter to me and nothing runs in 40 columns.
I may have an explanation for the 16 sprites. The engineer Herd? Quoted a conversation that he wanted a particular VDC but somebody from MOS, said they had another chip. He asked or said, as long as it was compatible with the original parts features. So, he locked in the part and found out it wasn't like the original part. What was this part, it sounded to me like one of the part numbers of the refuced Amiga chipset that Motorola was setting up to produce before all the post Amiga purchase lawsuits (you will find the parts referenced as the original colour computer 3 chip set, a UK 68000 computer, and motorola press release). I also have proposed in the past that Commodore should have made a 64 replacement with 80 column mode and 16 sprite supports, or even the 64 itself (a character set based 80 column mode is easily doable, and better graphic modes and colour depth follow in future editions going to 640 mode and 256 colours, until a cheap Amiga can be done). It's funny that tje STe had 16 sprites, at the end of this period. Where did they get that from? 16 sprites is an unusual choice, though I figured it was just enough to get a good deal of spites on a line. The problem is Chuck and others had already left, and Jack left, pulling other people along with him in the after math. So, the series under the plus 4 lost it's rudder, and the 128/64 didn't enjoy their wisdom. Chuck and teams came from professor advocating for a home computer revolution, and Chuck and his team were trying to start it off. Chuck talked Jack into home computers, and helped solve engineering problems with the Apple and original Atari VCS/2600 (As to why the plus 4 didn't have a 80 column mode as a chesp business computer, I don't know. They were already shooting multiple unsuccessful shots at thst market with vic2 and mon vic2 machines). I think if Jack was still around, he'd be firing people, maybe even throw a prototype. The plus 4 was sunk over graphics handling and no 80 column mode, and the 128 in having its own graphics handling issue, version of graphics chip, and not being able to run all modes auto switched through the same monitor (but really needed an upgrdaded vic2 chip with 80 column 16 sprites of 4 colours+ any resolution, 16, maybe 256, colour 200*160, maybe 320*200, and 4 colour 640x200, and one or two years after the 64 as a 128). To me, it seems they were planning the basic for a different featured machine. The 6502 and z80 had features they couldn't fully implement in time, do they were not activated. Maybe the vic chip in there has 16 sprite support hidden in some unactivated buggy circuitry on the chip, which could still be activated. It's engineer might know. If so, was the circuit design used in vic chips on the later 64'S, and they have dormant 16 sprites (maybe with extra colour depth on a bus with enough clock)?
I greatly enjoy your videos, and like the "retro without pain" approach here. Long or short, a computing video should do two things well: explain the subject matter understandably, and get the point across. Well done in both respects!
A caution for anyone thinking if doing this: I bought one theses composite cables when I first got my C128, but none of the flat screen monitors or TVs I have were able to lock onto the signal very well. It was only when I passed the signal through a composite to HDMI adaptor that I got a decent result.
Interesting, I had no issues with any of the displays I tried. I wonder if there are variations in VDCs? Was this recently or back in the day? I wonder if it's age related. I have a couple other smaller Dell panels with composite that I can try, but that 24" one has by far the worst upscaling even with a perfectly clean signal. I'll try it with a couple of flat 128s too and see.
@@retrobitstv It was only a few weeks ago, so it could well be degradation of my C128, though the picture was reasonably good using RGBI through a MCE2VGA converter/upscaler. Maybe it’s time for recapping it. By coincidence one of the monitors I tried was a 24” Dell that looked just like yours, plus a couple of similar looking 20” Dells that are even older and a couple of 24” TVs
3:00 - Two reasons why this revelation never struck me back in the day: 1: I don't think I ever bothered to read this particular pinout 2: I thought 80 column video signals were black magic special sauce fundamentally removed from the mere mortal plane of TV signals. So even if I'd seen there was a monochrome pin, I would have thought you'd need a special monochrome monitor for it. But I certainly used enough GEOS 128 that a monochrome monitor could have been of some use to me... Though it was real nice not having to have two separate monitors to use C128's bizarre combination of two completely unrelated video systems.
I never looked at manuals back in those days and no one told me otherwise so I ended up buying that used 1084S from one of the BBS guys in S.Portland on $someone else's advice when I got my 128. In hindsight, I'm pretty happy that I did, because it served me well for many years (and hopefully will again soon).
Cool. I knew I shouldnt have sold my old Commodore 1901 back in the day.. alas.. this cable would get me back into b/w 80 columns with my Commodore 128D...
Yep, I got a 128 before I got a monitor with RGBI. I did have a 1702 tho, so the VIC was hooked up to Y/C on the back. I made a cable to connect the mono output of the VDC to the front.
ok but ... sorry to write this, but that's a thing we found out ~ 40 years ago ;-) As monitors were not cheap we all used it in monochrome. I later tried to get a A520 for converting running, but (I used the resistors like on a scart adaptor) never get it stable running. ~ 10 years ago (I don't remind me better) I also converted A520 to S-Video adaptors , what works perfect for any Amiga. And retried my old Idea, but no chance. Also signals are missing. There is no 100% working solution and some are so expensive, that makes no sense. So ... today we use them much less then ever and why waste any more time and money. Here and there we power the old 8 bit machiens on, enjoy them, than pack them back where thes are protected from dust and sunlight ;-)
Thanks for this! I have a Commodore 128 and have been wondering how to use the 80 column mode without a RGB monitor. Where can I obtain one of those monochrome cables such as the one you showed in the video? It may not be color, but is better than nothing.
A couple of the other color options mentioned in the description, but at least one vendor still sells a monochrome cable. I have no affiliation and have not bought from this vendor before though: www.8bitclassics.com/product/commodore-128-monochrome-rca-video-cable/
Wait. So not only did my mom throw out the c64/128 she threw out that monitor too? I remember being able to use 80 column mode no problem back in the day..? :(
Makes you wonder what that VDC could have done if Commodore decided to go for an 8088 instead of a Z80 for the second processor. It would have knocked CGA out of the park, and you'd be able to play MS-DOS games with SID sound. They took the wrong commercial gamble to support CP/M instead.
Back in the day the CP/M market share was higher than anything MS-DOS or Windows has ever held. It truly was a monopoly. Though the writing was on the wall in BIG LETTERS by the time C128 released.
@@GoatTheGoat That was true for the late 1970s and early 80s, but by 1985 when the C128 was released, MS-DOS was firmly estabilished, as even the 80386 was around the corner when the 128D came out in '87. If Commodore were to market the C128 as a machine where users could run their MS-DOS programs as well as play their C64 games, it would have been a commercial hit.
I dont think supporting CPM was the intention. The 128 essentially was a super 64... everything people complained about the 64 was fixed (added on) to the 128. An 80 column mode, faster disk IO, actually usable CPM, a faster processor, a better BASIC, etc. All of these things existed for the 64 as separate add-ons. Seems then that the goal was to build "a better 64". I think they succeeded, but obviously it was a short term fix while they got the Amiga ball rolling. x86 was saved for their clone line.
That would have been interesting! Retain the 64 and 128 modes the system already had, but with the addition of DOS compatibility, 16 color graphics and SID sound, it could have given the Tandy 1000 a run for its money. I imagine it would have increased the system cost because it would have to have provisions for RAM expansion up to 640K, ISA slots maybe?
According to Bill Herd they decided to make it C64 compatible, but the C64 CP/M cartridge wouldn't work with their design, so they added the Z80 only to run CP/M, which was only because the C64 could. Sadly the C64 compatibility hampered not only the design, but also the commercial success. Almost no software was ever made for the C128, since everyone could just make C64 software and sell it as C128 software, which effectively made the C128 just another C64.
Thanks :) It should work the same on a flat 128. Cables are available for purchase, I found one here: www.8bitclassics.com/product/commodore-128-monochrome-rca-video-cable/ I have not used this vendor before though.
Thanks! You can find it on csdb.dk or commodore.software - just a head's up that if you want to use version 3 with an 1541 Ultimate II+'s swiftlink emulation, you'll need to patch it.
Yeah, I wish Commodore would've found those ways to make the VDC GPU more graphically useful like it's cool that these other guys did. Too bad it isn't very motion-capable like the lo-res (VIC II) GPU is.
Have you tried to find 4:3 mode on your TV. No converters, just use 80 composite monochrome and enjoy Geos128. It is that good, just change from 16:10 (or auto) to 4:3.
Yea I didn't mess with the aspect ratios on the LCDs. I totally would get it into 4:3 if I were going to use that mode regularly, but I'm sticking to my CRTs for day-to-day use!
I use a GBS8200 as well (with the CGA2RGB I mentioned in the vid). It gets the job done, but I'm planning on trying out the gbscontrol mod on it and see how much that improves the quality. Will make a video out of it of course :)
@@retrobitstv There is quite a quality boost from using gbscontrol, although I'm using an RGB2Component board (on an Amiga) and going into the component input on the GBS8200, but it certainly looks much nicer than with the GBS alone and the same component setup. The best results for a 128 might be from the Raspberry Pi-based RGB2HDMI project. Maybe that could also be in a part 2 to this episode? :)
I'd rather have the one with the off-brown than the one with no hue at all. But yeah, your main point is that this cable you just found singles out the luma signal from RGBI for use in composite mode.
The pin schematic specifically labels pin 7 as "monochrome," so it's specifically for that. Also, the RGBI spec doesn't include a luma signal. You're thinking of composite, which is a separate output port on the C128, and doesn't do 80 columns. So they specifically designed the C128 to output a 80 column monochrome image, in addition to the RGBI pins and signals.
@@HelloKittyFanMan. Technically, it's backwards. A straight Monochrome signal isn't composite, because there's no color composited with it. When composite color video was created for the various TV standards, they retroactively used the monochrome B&W signal for luminance, and composited in the colors, often for backwards compatibility reasons. This is why, in certain situations, like a PAL TV that can do 60hz but not NTSC color, you still get a B&W image, because there's still a compliant monochrome signal to use. The VDC chip on the C128 is completely incapable of outputting composite color video, because it doesn't output any compatible chrominance signal. It was specifically engineered to output this analog monochrome signal, which is separate from the digital RGBI signaling it also generates and outputs.
@@marsilies: Yeah, aside from your odd treatment of "monochrome" as a brand name once, I agree, what you said makes sense, and that's what I thought I was saying too, that the monochrome signal from the RGBI is analog and is just the luminance that you'd see as part of composite or s-video. So even though it sounds like you partially "corrected" me earlier, your new reply here makes it sound like I was right.
@@HelloKittyFanMan. Again, the monochrome analog signal isn't "from" RGBI. It's a completely separate signal the VDC chip generates, and sends out on a separate pin. That pin just happens to be on the same connector as the RGBI pins/signals.
Here's what I got when searching for "Commodore 128 80-column monochrome cable": www.8bitclassics.com/product/commodore-128-monochrome-rca-video-cable/ It's a little more, but if you want color, there are inexpensive adapters such as this one now: retro8bitshop.com/product/40-80-column-to-scart-video-adapter-with-case/
I have a GBS 8200 cheap thing for my Amiga, then recently bought a GG labs adapter shown early on in video. It works but GEOS128 looks like complete ass and thats what I actually wanted to use it for. Altogether maybe $100 to get on modern monitor
Yea I'm not super happy with how the 128 looks upscaled with the GBS8200 either. There is a project called gbscontrol that aims to improve it quite a bit, and I plan to make a video about it some day :)
Sorry, I sometimes forget that not everyone views videos on a TV or computer monitor. I imagine in a window or on a phone that the illustration would be small. Make sure you vote on your preferred device in the poll under the community tab of the channel!
80 columns was a great idea for the commodore series. But the implementation of 80 column on the 128 was truly an abomination -- it seemed so nearly designed to be as hostile to developers as to be a scheme created by the competition.
Starting in that screen mode is not a "sad situation", it's a standard that is readable by people who are visually impaired who require a dark theme... White text on a black background.. or the next best thing, phosphorescent green on a black background. This is no sad state, but evockative an era when computer people cared about handicapped people and sought to accomodate them, not exclude them. Today's programmers and user interface designers just don't give two phwwwcks about handicapped people or accomodating them. I get into arguements witht hem all the time.. and they're like, sorry, I just don't care, I'm not changing my pretty color scheme I like just to make the text readable for some blind person. Most of us back then were on black and white or color TV's. Very, very few people had the Commodore Color Monitor.
I spent most of my time on my C64 using a terminal program, and GEOS. What an upgrade the C128 would have been for me! Especially since the terminal program I used had a bitmap graphic-based faux (and fuzzy!) 80 column mode. Ugh. An actual 80 column mode would have been a crazy upgrade! And GEOS 128 would have been a big upgrade too. Oh well… I was a kid buying electronics with my allowance, so a second-hand C64 it was!
What would be the terminal for C128 with support for 80 columns?
I love to use the composite mode of my C128 on green monochrome screen, and it looks fantastic. I love the video and the short format. As a consumer of retro computers content, I don't mind short videos as long as they are interesting or convey passion.
I was c128's biggest fan, 25 years ago more or less i had c128 and c128d later, and i was fascinated with dual cpu and 3 OS features, i wanted to know everything and use it to the 100%. I even used cp/m for my diary writing :) Of course there was no internet and software & documentation was hard to come by and expensive (mostly pirated). I always dreamed of having 80 columns and use VDC for wordstar and dbase and cp/m, even after 25+ years i still have this a bit sad feeling, but your videos about c128 they are working therapeuticaly, thanks :) if i only knew about this cable... it is a big revelation for me, really :)
Yes should have known this in 90 something when I only used 40 colom, recently I saw a video of the 8 bit guy mentioning this and now this video :)
I didn't know that mode existed it until I found the cable in the bin and even then I wasn't sure if it was for a Tandy 1000 or not. YT comments got me sorted out quickly though!
Super cool to share for those that didn't know of this monochrome sol'n. It is exactly how I ran my 128 (with my 1702) with a cable I built myself to run GEOS 128 - this was super cool c. 1987/1988, and how I did my school work when I started college, basically like having an early Mac.
11:02 I love that you're rightly excited about this mode!
My English prof used to complain about the hard to read GEOS text from my dot matrix Star Gemini 10X. :)
Nice, so yours was exactly the use case I envisioned. I really didn't know this existed until recently, but having that monochrome pin on the VDC was definitely a smart addition to the system. I wonder why it didn't gain wider acceptance since it seem like a great fit for most of the software you'd be using a 128 with anyway.
Ya, I didn't know anyone else with a 128; I don't recall how I learned about it. Maybe from Run magazine? That's probably where I learned most C= stuff.
I wonder where the cable was available, pre-made c. 1987, if anywhere.
This is how we used our 128 for a few years before we got a color 80 column monitor. I made the cable out of spare parts I had kicking around. 80 column GeoWrite was such a killer app on the 128.
ZORK!!!!! a game that is most definitely in my top five Commodore games. When I bought my C128D a few months ago, because it had been my 3rd Commodore computer from 1988-1990 while stationed at Fort Polk LA (My 2nd was a SX-64 from 1986-1988 while serving in West Germany and I also reacquired at the same time as the C128D) I found on eBay and probably paid to much was a complete boxed Beyond Zork in great shape with everything that should of came with the game. This game would only work on C128 in 80 column mode and I think this was the first piece of software that I had bought for my C128D back in the 80's. Just to fill in the gap in the story, my 1st was a C64 for Xmas 1983 that I left at my Mom's during my six years in the U.S. Army. I still have it to this day still hooked up to my 1702 monitor and 1541 drive from the 80's all still sat up on the walnut computer desk that I built in 11th grade woodshop class.
I like all your content, as it's well researched and professionally presented.
My own flat C128 was equipped with a switch to toggle between the VIC-II's color output or the VDC's monochrome output on the DIN-8 connector.
Nice, that is a great hack!
@@retrobitstv It is incredibly useful. Since I keep the C128 mode in 2MHz/80 col. I use that switch every time I toggle between the C128 and C64 modes.
80 column for the C128 was a godsend back in the day. Paired with programs like Superscript 128, you had a word processor that was at least the equal and quite often superior to anything the PC or Mac worlds might throw at it. Clear, fast and easy to use. Thank you Commodore! And when you had finished working, you could switch to 64 mode for games.
Have personally a great full color solution myself with a 1084S-D1 monitor for my C128DCR and a RGB2HDMI for my C128D, but great video to show there is really no excuse left to use that 80 column VDC mode as such a cheap cable as in this video already gives so much benefit in monochrome 80 column use.
Great video to spead the VDC love.
Thank you, great video
I can't believe I hadn't thought of that! Thank you so much for the tip! Definitely gonna make a cable for my 128, it's a bit of a hassle hooking up the cga2rgb and then connecting that up to my gbs8200 just to use 80 column mode since i share it with multiple other systems. I mostly use it for cp/m so color doesn't matter to me and nothing runs in 40 columns.
Sweet, glad it was useful!
I may have an explanation for the 16 sprites.
The engineer Herd? Quoted a conversation that he wanted a particular VDC but somebody from MOS, said they had another chip. He asked or said, as long as it was compatible with the original parts features. So, he locked in the part and found out it wasn't like the original part.
What was this part, it sounded to me like one of the part numbers of the refuced Amiga chipset that Motorola was setting up to produce before all the post Amiga purchase lawsuits (you will find the parts referenced as the original colour computer 3 chip set, a UK 68000 computer, and motorola press release). I also have proposed in the past that Commodore should have made a 64 replacement with 80 column mode and 16 sprite supports, or even the 64 itself (a character set based 80 column mode is easily doable, and better graphic modes and colour depth follow in future editions going to 640 mode and 256 colours, until a cheap Amiga can be done). It's funny that tje STe had 16 sprites, at the end of this period. Where did they get that from? 16 sprites is an unusual choice, though I figured it was just enough to get a good deal of spites on a line.
The problem is Chuck and others had already left, and Jack left, pulling other people along with him in the after math. So, the series under the plus 4 lost it's rudder, and the 128/64 didn't enjoy their wisdom. Chuck and teams came from professor advocating for a home computer revolution, and Chuck and his team were trying to start it off. Chuck talked Jack into home computers, and helped solve engineering problems with the Apple and original Atari VCS/2600 (As to why the plus 4 didn't have a 80 column mode as a chesp business computer, I don't know. They were already shooting multiple unsuccessful shots at thst market with vic2 and mon vic2 machines). I think if Jack was still around, he'd be firing people, maybe even throw a prototype. The plus 4 was sunk over graphics handling and no 80 column mode, and the 128 in having its own graphics handling issue, version of graphics chip, and not being able to run all modes auto switched through the same monitor (but really needed an upgrdaded vic2 chip with 80 column 16 sprites of 4 colours+ any resolution, 16, maybe 256, colour 200*160, maybe 320*200, and 4 colour 640x200, and one or two years after the 64 as a 128).
To me, it seems they were planning the basic for a different featured machine. The 6502 and z80 had features they couldn't fully implement in time, do they were not activated. Maybe the vic chip in there has 16 sprite support hidden in some unactivated buggy circuitry on the chip, which could still be activated. It's engineer might know. If so, was the circuit design used in vic chips on the later 64'S, and they have dormant 16 sprites (maybe with extra colour depth on a bus with enough clock)?
I greatly enjoy your videos, and like the "retro without pain" approach here. Long or short, a computing video should do two things well: explain the subject matter understandably, and get the point across. Well done in both respects!
i love your video's keep up the great work and i hope your channel will grow alot
Thanks for the encouragement!
A caution for anyone thinking if doing this: I bought one theses composite cables when I first got my C128, but none of the flat screen monitors or TVs I have were able to lock onto the signal very well. It was only when I passed the signal through a composite to HDMI adaptor that I got a decent result.
Interesting, I had no issues with any of the displays I tried. I wonder if there are variations in VDCs? Was this recently or back in the day? I wonder if it's age related. I have a couple other smaller Dell panels with composite that I can try, but that 24" one has by far the worst upscaling even with a perfectly clean signal. I'll try it with a couple of flat 128s too and see.
@@retrobitstv It was only a few weeks ago, so it could well be degradation of my C128, though the picture was reasonably good using RGBI through a MCE2VGA converter/upscaler. Maybe it’s time for recapping it. By coincidence one of the monitors I tried was a 24” Dell that looked just like yours, plus a couple of similar looking 20” Dells that are even older and a couple of 24” TVs
Really nice video.
How would the composite cable perform on a living room CRT TV? I guess 80 column text would still be too blurry, right?
Thanks! I think it would depend on the TV's specs. If it's got a high-end tube with 600 TVL and a low dot pitch it would probably look pretty good!
3:00 - Two reasons why this revelation never struck me back in the day:
1: I don't think I ever bothered to read this particular pinout
2: I thought 80 column video signals were black magic special sauce fundamentally removed from the mere mortal plane of TV signals.
So even if I'd seen there was a monochrome pin, I would have thought you'd need a special monochrome monitor for it.
But I certainly used enough GEOS 128 that a monochrome monitor could have been of some use to me... Though it was real nice not having to have two separate monitors to use C128's bizarre combination of two completely unrelated video systems.
I never looked at manuals back in those days and no one told me otherwise so I ended up buying that used 1084S from one of the BBS guys in S.Portland on $someone else's advice when I got my 128. In hindsight, I'm pretty happy that I did, because it served me well for many years (and hopefully will again soon).
Cool. I knew I shouldnt have sold my old Commodore 1901 back in the day.. alas.. this cable would get me back into b/w 80 columns with my Commodore 128D...
Yep, I got a 128 before I got a monitor with RGBI. I did have a 1702 tho, so the VIC was hooked up to Y/C on the back. I made a cable to connect the mono output of the VDC to the front.
It seems like I'm the only one that didn't know about this :)
Nice Bit
ok but ... sorry to write this, but that's a thing we found out ~ 40 years ago ;-)
As monitors were not cheap we all used it in monochrome. I later tried to get a A520 for converting running, but (I used the resistors like on a scart adaptor) never get it stable running.
~ 10 years ago (I don't remind me better) I also converted A520 to S-Video adaptors , what works perfect for any Amiga. And retried my old Idea, but no chance. Also signals are missing.
There is no 100% working solution and some are so expensive, that makes no sense.
So ... today we use them much less then ever and why waste any more time and money.
Here and there we power the old 8 bit machiens on, enjoy them, than pack them back where thes are protected from dust and sunlight ;-)
I have a nice Amiga 1081 Monitor with a TTL-RGB connector, is that the same as RGBI coming from the C128?
Thanks for this! I have a Commodore 128 and have been wondering how to use the 80 column mode without a RGB monitor. Where can I obtain one of those monochrome cables such as the one you showed in the video? It may not be color, but is better than nothing.
A couple of the other color options mentioned in the description, but at least one vendor still sells a monochrome cable. I have no affiliation and have not bought from this vendor before though:
www.8bitclassics.com/product/commodore-128-monochrome-rca-video-cable/
Wait. So not only did my mom throw out the c64/128 she threw out that monitor too? I remember being able to use 80 column mode no problem back in the day..? :(
Makes you wonder what that VDC could have done if Commodore decided to go for an 8088 instead of a Z80 for the second processor. It would have knocked CGA out of the park, and you'd be able to play MS-DOS games with SID sound. They took the wrong commercial gamble to support CP/M instead.
Back in the day the CP/M market share was higher than anything MS-DOS or Windows has ever held. It truly was a monopoly. Though the writing was on the wall in BIG LETTERS by the time C128 released.
@@GoatTheGoat That was true for the late 1970s and early 80s, but by 1985 when the C128 was released, MS-DOS was firmly estabilished, as even the 80386 was around the corner when the 128D came out in '87. If Commodore were to market the C128 as a machine where users could run their MS-DOS programs as well as play their C64 games, it would have been a commercial hit.
I dont think supporting CPM was the intention. The 128 essentially was a super 64... everything people complained about the 64 was fixed (added on) to the 128. An 80 column mode, faster disk IO, actually usable CPM, a faster processor, a better BASIC, etc. All of these things existed for the 64 as separate add-ons. Seems then that the goal was to build "a better 64". I think they succeeded, but obviously it was a short term fix while they got the Amiga ball rolling. x86 was saved for their clone line.
That would have been interesting! Retain the 64 and 128 modes the system already had, but with the addition of DOS compatibility, 16 color graphics and SID sound, it could have given the Tandy 1000 a run for its money. I imagine it would have increased the system cost because it would have to have provisions for RAM expansion up to 640K, ISA slots maybe?
According to Bill Herd they decided to make it C64 compatible, but the C64 CP/M cartridge wouldn't work with their design, so they added the Z80 only to run CP/M, which was only because the C64 could. Sadly the C64 compatibility hampered not only the design, but also the commercial success. Almost no software was ever made for the C128, since everyone could just make C64 software and sell it as C128 software, which effectively made the C128 just another C64.
Excellent video and work! Is there a cable like that for first 128? I have one but no cable. Can you make one or buy one?
Thanks :) It should work the same on a flat 128. Cables are available for purchase, I found one here: www.8bitclassics.com/product/commodore-128-monochrome-rca-video-cable/ I have not used this vendor before though.
@Kevin Smith Do you have a schematic for that cable? I would like to make one
Cool Video. I adore my C128s. I do have two 1901 Monitors. Does anybody know, where to get the DESTERM128 Program?
Thanx and happy holidays!!!
Thanks! You can find it on csdb.dk or commodore.software - just a head's up that if you want to use version 3 with an 1541 Ultimate II+'s swiftlink emulation, you'll need to patch it.
Thank you!!!
Quite funny, the Grey shows like a bad photo copy from an old b/w scanner 🤣
Yeah, I wish Commodore would've found those ways to make the VDC GPU more graphically useful like it's cool that these other guys did. Too bad it isn't very motion-capable like the lo-res (VIC II) GPU is.
Where the hell that Babylon 5 picture come from... I need that for my collections :p
Check out csdb.dk/release/?id=100510 and csdb.dk/release/?id=100511
Have you tried to find 4:3 mode on your TV. No converters, just use 80 composite monochrome and enjoy Geos128. It is that good, just change from 16:10 (or auto) to 4:3.
Yea I didn't mess with the aspect ratios on the LCDs. I totally would get it into 4:3 if I were going to use that mode regularly, but I'm sticking to my CRTs for day-to-day use!
The BIT-C-128 to GONBES is what I use. Colors aren't that great but it's a decent conversion to VGA from RGBI.
I use a GBS8200 as well (with the CGA2RGB I mentioned in the vid). It gets the job done, but I'm planning on trying out the gbscontrol mod on it and see how much that improves the quality. Will make a video out of it of course :)
@@retrobitstv There is quite a quality boost from using gbscontrol, although I'm using an RGB2Component board (on an Amiga) and going into the component input on the GBS8200, but it certainly looks much nicer than with the GBS alone and the same component setup. The best results for a 128 might be from the Raspberry Pi-based RGB2HDMI project. Maybe that could also be in a part 2 to this episode? :)
Cool, glad to hear it's worth doing. I do plan to try out RGB2HDMI at some point as well!
Zork! 🤩☺️
I'd rather have the one with the off-brown than the one with no hue at all. But yeah, your main point is that this cable you just found singles out the luma signal from RGBI for use in composite mode.
The pin schematic specifically labels pin 7 as "monochrome," so it's specifically for that. Also, the RGBI spec doesn't include a luma signal. You're thinking of composite, which is a separate output port on the C128, and doesn't do 80 columns. So they specifically designed the C128 to output a 80 column monochrome image, in addition to the RGBI pins and signals.
@@marsilies: Luma isn't what makes the grayscale from composite?
@@HelloKittyFanMan. Technically, it's backwards. A straight Monochrome signal isn't composite, because there's no color composited with it.
When composite color video was created for the various TV standards, they retroactively used the monochrome B&W signal for luminance, and composited in the colors, often for backwards compatibility reasons. This is why, in certain situations, like a PAL TV that can do 60hz but not NTSC color, you still get a B&W image, because there's still a compliant monochrome signal to use.
The VDC chip on the C128 is completely incapable of outputting composite color video, because it doesn't output any compatible chrominance signal. It was specifically engineered to output this analog monochrome signal, which is separate from the digital RGBI signaling it also generates and outputs.
@@marsilies: Yeah, aside from your odd treatment of "monochrome" as a brand name once, I agree, what you said makes sense, and that's what I thought I was saying too, that the monochrome signal from the RGBI is analog and is just the luminance that you'd see as part of composite or s-video. So even though it sounds like you partially "corrected" me earlier, your new reply here makes it sound like I was right.
@@HelloKittyFanMan. Again, the monochrome analog signal isn't "from" RGBI. It's a completely separate signal the VDC chip generates, and sends out on a separate pin. That pin just happens to be on the same connector as the RGBI pins/signals.
Next video: bacon bits, except old and from some random basement in Canada.
Eww.
How is this monochrome cable called if I want to search for it?
Here's what I got when searching for "Commodore 128 80-column monochrome cable": www.8bitclassics.com/product/commodore-128-monochrome-rca-video-cable/
It's a little more, but if you want color, there are inexpensive adapters such as this one now: retro8bitshop.com/product/40-80-column-to-scart-video-adapter-with-case/
@@retrobitstv Thanks a lot!
I have a GBS 8200 cheap thing for my Amiga, then recently bought a GG labs adapter shown early on in video. It works but GEOS128 looks like complete ass and thats what I actually wanted to use it for. Altogether maybe $100 to get on modern monitor
Yea I'm not super happy with how the 128 looks upscaled with the GBS8200 either. There is a project called gbscontrol that aims to improve it quite a bit, and I plan to make a video about it some day :)
Hello I like your content but its hard to se your good illustrations when you have unused space in form of a keyboard and computer (3:05).
Sorry, I sometimes forget that not everyone views videos on a TV or computer monitor. I imagine in a window or on a phone that the illustration would be small. Make sure you vote on your preferred device in the poll under the community tab of the channel!
80 columns was a great idea for the commodore series.
But the implementation of 80 column on the 128 was truly an abomination -- it seemed so nearly designed to be as hostile to developers as to be a scheme created by the competition.
Starting in that screen mode is not a "sad situation", it's a standard that is readable by people who are visually impaired who require a dark theme... White text on a black background.. or the next best thing, phosphorescent green on a black background. This is no sad state, but evockative an era when computer people cared about handicapped people and sought to accomodate them, not exclude them.
Today's programmers and user interface designers just don't give two phwwwcks about handicapped people or accomodating them. I get into arguements witht hem all the time.. and they're like, sorry, I just don't care, I'm not changing my pretty color scheme I like just to make the text readable for some blind person.
Most of us back then were on black and white or color TV's. Very, very few people had the Commodore Color Monitor.
Worse than a Macintosh Lisa
"no RGB or adaptor"
Proceeds to use an adapter to access the composite output from the VDC.
🤷♂
Perhaps I should have said "converter" instead :)
I wouldn't qualify "using the intended cable" as an "adapter" even though it has different plugs on both ends.
You totally forgot magic desk.